February 21, 2025

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR".

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

SO I SEE THEM REWARDING AGGRESSION AND THROWING UKRAINE UNDER THE BUS SPIRITS NEW UKRAINE LOOKING ON AS AMERICA BRINGS RUSSIA INTO THE FOLD.

AND TRUMP TESTS LIMITS AT HOME, THE THREATS OF RISING AUTHORITARIANISM IN THE UNITED STATES AND ABROAD.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT WITH OUR FRIENDS, WE HAVE OTHER THREATS COMING FROM OUTSIDE.

SNOOP LUST CHALLENGES -- PLUS CHALLENGES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND JORDAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> THIS DEPARTMENT, THIS AGENCY, PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND ELON MUSK, WHO APPEARS TO BE MAKING ALL THE DECISIONS, REALLY DON'T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING FOR THE COMMUNITIES AND THE CHILDREN WHO ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY THESE HARSH DECISIONS, IT FEELS LIKE THEY JUST DON'T CARE.

>> A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN, MICHELLE HAYES SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN.

[ MUSIC ] >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE EMERSON ENDOWMENT , AND THE PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM, THE FOUNDING FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, SETON J MELVIN, AND THE PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ FUN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE, JEFFREY KATZ, BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION WITH BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIAN M AND POOR, -- CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WORDS LIKE JAW-DROPPING, HEAD SPINNING, AND EARTHQUAKE HAVE BEEN ATTACHED TO TRUMP'S FOREIGN POLICY, BRINGING RUSSIA IN FROM THE COLD, ALIENATING UKRAINE, STRONG-ARMING ALLIES MAY BE ALL PART OF HIS NEGOTIATION STYLE, BUT IT'S GOT WORLD LEADERS WONDERING.

IMAGINE FLIPPING FACTS AND THE NATO CONSENSUS COMPLETELY UPSIDE DOWN BY CALLING UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT A DICTATOR AND BLAMING HIM FOR RUSSIA'S UNPROVOKED FULL SCALE INVASION THREE YEARS AGO.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE SENT HIS SECRETARY OF STATE TO START TALKS WITH RUSSIA ON UKRAINE'S FUTURE, WITHOUT UKRAINE.

AT THE SAME TIME, LONGTIME OBSERVERS OF AMERICAN DOS DEMOCRACY HAVE BEEN STUNNED BY THE SPEED AND APPARENT EASE WITH WHICH TRUMP AND MUSCAT ARE BARRELING THROUGH FEDERAL INSTITUTIONS HERE, AND TESTING THE BOUNDARY OF EXECUTIVE POWER TO THE VERY LIMIT.

ONE JOURNALIST IS A VOCAL CRITIC OF BOTH THE KREMLIN AND TRUMP, LAST YEAR CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA AND SENTENCED BY A MOSCOW COURT FOR REPORTING ON THE UKRAINE CONFLICT.

RECENT REPORTING EXPLORES HOW AUTHORITARIANISM CAN TAKE ROOT IN DEMOCRACY, ARGUING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES "THE BARRAGE OF TRUMPS AWFUL IDEAS IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO.

MARCIA JOINED ME TO PUT INTO CONTEXT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE REST OF THE WORLD.

MARCIA, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU HAVE SURVIVED AND FLIPPED THROUGH YOUR OWN AUTOCRACY IN RUSSIA.

TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT APPEARS TO BE A 180 IN U. S. SPEAK AND RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA OVER UKRAINE AND OF COURSE, EUROPE.

THIS WEEK PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLED ZELENSKY THE DICTATOR AMONG OTHER POLLUTANT TALKING POINTS.

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING?

>> I SEE TRUMP ADOPTING PUTIN'S LANGUAGE.

I SEE MOSCOW REELING FROM THEIR WILDEST DREAMS COMING TRUE FASTER THAN THEY COULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED, AND I SEE THIS COUNTRY REWARDING PUTIN'S AGGRESSION, AND THROWING UKRAINE AND THE REST OF EUROPE UNDER THE BUS.

>> PUTIN HAS SAID ALL OF THE REACTION IS "HYSTERIA," AND WHY SHOULD WE TALK TO RUSSIA?

OF COURSE THE UKRAINE WILL BE INVOLVED.

IS THERE ANYTHING HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES THAT WOULDN'T RESULT IN THROWING UKRAINE UNDER THE BUS AND ISOLATING EUROPE?

>> I ADVOCATE FOR LOOKING FOR THE THING, NOT THE THING BEHIND THE THING.

WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THEY ARE TELLING US.

PUTIN HAS BEEN TELLING US WHAT HE WANTS FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

HE WANTS TO GET BACK TO THE PURSE POST-WORLD WAR II STATUS QUO WHEN THE WORLD WAS DIVIDED BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE SOVIET UNION.

HE FEELS LIKE HE HAS BEEN DEALT A BAD DEAL IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION, AND THAT RUSSIA DESERVES, AND HE PERSONALLY DESERVES TO DIVIDE THE WORLD AGAIN , THAT IS VERY CLEARLY WHAT HE HAS BEEN SAYING, WHAT HE HAS BEEN SIGNALING, AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SIGNALING, IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS, AS THEY HAVE ACTIVELY STARTED TO TALK TO TRUMP.

AND IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE TRUMP IS GOING TO STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING.

DIVIDING UP THE WORLD IS APPEALING TO TRUMP.

I THINK IT'S PHYSICALLY DIVIDING THE WORLD, NOT JUST SPHERES OF INFLUENCE, HE IMAGINES REGARDING THE MAP.

>> YOU HAVE LIVED IN AND THOROUGHLY EXAMINED PUTIN'S RUSSIA.

IS THIS ADMINISTRATION A MATCH FOR PUTIN AROUND THE NEGOTIATING TABLE?

>> I DON'T KNOW, I COULD TRY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION, PROBABLY THE ANSWER IS NO, BECAUSE PUTIN AND LEVER OFF HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS HARDER, THEY ARE BETTER AT THIS THAN TRUMP AND HIS PEOPLE, THEY ARE STILL EXPERIENCED EVEN IF THEY ARE MORE COMPETENT THAN THE FIRST AT MINISTRATION, BUT I'M NOT EVEN SURE THAT IT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION.

THEY DON'T HAVE COMPETING INTERESTS, THEY ARE ACTUALLY ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE TABLE.

>> WHEN ZELENSKY COUNTERS THAT TRUMP IS IN A DISINFORMATION SPACE, I MEAN HE IS STEPPING OUTSIDE A LANE OF CAREFUL COURTING OF HIS AMERICAN BACKERS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, WHILE BEING VERY, VERY AWARE THAT WITHOUT AT LEAST WEAPONRY, HE MIGHT NOT BE IN THE POSITION AS HE IS, AS BAD AS IT IS.

HOW DO YOU READ WHAT ZELENSKY IS DOING?

>> I SEE ZELENSKY AS THE ONLY POLITICIAN ON THE WORLD STAGE WHERE WE ARE ACTUALLY SEEING HIM HAVE THE COURAGE OF HIS CONVICTIONS.

HE IS CALLING THINGS WHAT THEY ARE, HE IS SPEAKING UP FOR A DEMOCRATIC EUROPE.

HE IS CALLING FOR EUROPE TO MOBILIZE FOR THE INTERESTS AND THE VALUES IT WAS FOUNDED UPON, AND HE IS THE ONLY PERSON DOING THAT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH EUROPE?

IT DOES LOOK AS IF PRESIDENT TRUMP AS THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER HAD SAID IS ESSENTIALLY REALIGNING AMERICA AWAY FROM EUROPE, WHILE "CUDDLING UP TO PUTIN'S MOSCOW. "

DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING TO EUROPE?

>> IF EUROPE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CARVED UP BY THIS CRAZY NEW AMERICA AND RUSSIA, EUROPE HAS TO PROBABLY CREATE ITS OWN ARMY, ITS OWN DEFENSE ALLIANCE AND ARTICULATE ITS OWN STRATEGIC INTERESTS.

IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING, BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE A UNITED EUROPE, IN FACT IT IS PROBABLY LESS UNITED THAN IT HAS BEEN AT ANY POINT SINCE THE START OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> SO THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

>> IT IS HARD TO PREDICT DISASTER.

I THINK THERE ARE MANY MOVING PARTS AND VARIABLES.

WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT PUTIN WANTS A LOT MORE THAN UKRAINE.

HE HAS BEEN AGAIN VERY CLEAR, WITHOUT ANY HIDDEN AGENDA, THREATENING OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, INCLUDING POLAND, THE BALTIC STATES, AND MOST RECENTLY THROUGH HIS IDEOLOGUE, GERMANY.

HIS SITES ARE ON EUROPE.

EUROPE'S LINE OF DEFENSE HAS BASICALLY BEEN UKRAINE.

FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS, THE UNITED STATES UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND EUROPE HAD BASICALLY BEEN SAYING WE ARE OKAY WITH YOUR - -WE ARE OKAY WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE CONTINUING.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP UKRAINE FROM LOSING THE WAR, BECAUSE IT WILL SPREAD TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, AND WE ONLY WANT UKRAINIANS TO DIE, AND IF THAT LINE OF DEFENSE FALLS, ALL OF EUROPE CAN FALL.

>> IT IS REALLY HORRIBLY DARK, A DARK PRESCRIPTION FOR THE FUTURE, MANY IN EUROPE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, INCLUDING IF THERE IS A VACUUM OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP, PEOPLE LIKE CHINA, WHICH IS A COMPETITOR TO THE UNITED STATES, WOULD TAKE OVER GLOBAL LEADERSHIP.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED SURVIVING AUTOCRACY.

HOW DOES ONE SURVIVE AUTOCRACY?

IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, WAS IT POSSIBLE TO SURVIVE AUTOCRACY?

>> I'M NOT CERTAIN IF IT IS POSSIBLE.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR A POLITICAL SYSTEM TO SURVIVE AUTOCRACY, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WE ARE SEEING TRUMP TO SPLIT DESTROY THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM IN A WAY THAT HE DID NOT IN HIS FIRST AT MINISTRATION, IN A WAY THAT WILL MAKE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO REVERSE WHAT HE HAS DONE.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

A GERMAN POLITICIAN WAS SAYING IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WAR IN EUROPE, WELL, WE'VE GOT THREE YEARS, 10 MONTHS AND A WEEK TO GO, AND MAYBE THINGS WILL REALIGN.

YOU ARE SAYING IT COULD BE POSSIBLE TO REALIGN?

>> IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY BELIEF IN TRUMP'S TRUST IN THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM WHEN HE SEEMS TO HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR ANY OTHER FOUNDATIONAL INSTITUTION OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT.

SO, WHY DO WE THINK HE IS GOING TO MAKE AN EXCEPTION FOR ELECTIONS?

THERE MAY BE SOMETHING CALLED ELECTIONS IN FOUR YEARS, I'M NOT AT ALL CONVINCED IT WILL BE FREE AND FAIR ELECTION, AND EVEN IF IT IS, EVEN IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, TRUMP LOSES THAT ELECTION, WE CAN LOOK AT POLAND, WHERE THE AUTOCRATIC GOVERNOR MOVED MUCH SLOWER THAN TRUMP DID AND WAS ONLY IN POWER FOR A COUPLE TERMS.

FOR THE NEW LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC POLISH GOVERNMENT IT HAS PROVEN EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT TO REBUILD THINGS LIKE AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY AND MORE IMPORTANT, TO ESTABLISH HUMAN RIGHTS AS A FOUNDATIONAL VALUE OF GOVERNMENT.

THESE THINGS ARE VERY, VERY HARD TO REVERSE.

>> GIVEN THAT USAID AMONG OTHER THINGS IT DID WAS ALSO TO SUPPORT CERTAIN COUNTRIES ON HUMAN RIGHTS, FREE PRESS, WHEN IT WAS ONLY STATE RUN INFORMATION AVAILABLE, NOW THAT IS GONE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT COULD DO IN TERMS OF STRENGTHENING OR WEAKENING DEMOCRACY?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER, IT IS JUST A DISASTER FOR SO MANY PEOPLE RELYING ON THIS FUNDING FOR LIVELIHOODS, LIFESAVING MEDICATIONS, THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY.

A SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT VALUE HUMAN LIFE AND HUMAN DIGNITY, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY, IT BECOMES VERY ABSTRACT.

ARE WE SUPPORTING INSTITUTIONS, INDEPENDENT MEDIA, OR DEMOCRACY BUILDING IN OTHER COUNTRIES?

ARE WE A COUNTRY THAT HAS TAKEN A STANCE ON HUMAN LIVES THAT IT'S WORTHLESS?

THE LIVES OF THOSE DEPENDING ON USAID FUNDING ARE WORTHLESS?

PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE WORTHLESS, FEDERAL EMPLOYEES ARE WORTHLESS, PEOPLE ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE ARE WORTHLESS, THE LIVES OF MIGRANTS AND TRANS PEOPLE ARE WORTHLESS, THAT'S REALLY WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT IS DOING, AND YOU CAN HAVE A DEMOCRACY, A GOVERNMENT OF THE GOVERNANCE, IF THE GOVERNED ARE WORTHLESS.

>> THEY WOULD SAY, OF COURSE, THE TRUMPET MINISTERS WOULD SAY, IN TERMS OF DI, FOR INSTANCE, WE ARE JUST TRYING TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD BECAUSE ALL THE MINORITIES, THE WOMEN, OR WHATEVER, THEY'VE HAD A LEG UP, WE ARE JUST TRYING TO SAVE OUR COUNTRY FROM THE RADICAL AGENDA OF OVERLY PROGRESSIVE THOUGHT AND ACTION.

YOU LEFT RUSSIA BECAUSE OF ITS CRACKDOWN ON MANY THINGS, INCLUDING LGBTQ RIGHTS.

YOU CAME HERE FOR A SAFE HAVEN.

YOU ARE ALSO TRANSITIONING.

DO YOU FEEL ANY SAFER HERE AFTER FLEEING RUSSIA?

DO YOU FEEL SAFER NOW?

SO YOU KNOW, I'M IN A SITUATION OF SEVERAL HUNDRED, -- >> YOU KNOW, I'M IN A SITUATION OF SEVERAL HUNDRED RUSSIAN DISSIDENTS THAT ARE WANTED BY THE PUTIN REGIME, I'VE BEEN SENTENCED EIGHT YEARS FOR SPREADING DISINFORMATION BY REPORTING ON RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES IN UKRAINE, SO I AM WANTED BY THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, AS OUR SEVERAL HUNDRED OTHER DISSIDENTS WHO HAVE SOUGHT SAFE HAVEN IN THE WEST, INCLUDING IN THIS COUNTRY.

THIS INCREDIBLE BIRCH ENGLISH BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES, THAT'S TERRIFYING, RIGHT?

BOUDIN IS CLEARLY GOING TO ASK FOR US --PUTIN IS CLEARLY GOING TO ASK FOR US.

THAT IS FRIGHTENING.

ANOTHER THING THAT IS FRIGHTENING, YES, I LEFT RUSSIA BECAUSE MY FAMILY WAS DIRECTLY THREATENED BY NEWTON'S ANTI- TRAN38 LAWS, AND I'M A TRANS PERSON LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES NOW.

I DON'T FEEL PERSONALLY THREATENED AT THE MOMENT, I LIVE IN NEW YORK, I WORK AT THE NEW YORK TIMES, AND THERE'S CERTAINLY A LOT OF PRIVILEGE THAT I ENJOY THAT PROTECTS ME.

BUT HAVING LIVED IN RUSSIA IN A SIMILAR POSITION, I KNOW THAT PRIVILEGE ONLY GOES SO FAR.

OF COURSE, IN THIS COUNTRY, THE ATTACK ON TRANS PEOPLE IS ALSO SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO PUSH TRANS PEOPLE OUT OF PUBLIC SPACES.

IT IS THE DENIAL OF DOCUMENTS, THE REQUIREMENT THAT YOU USE THE BATHROOM OF THE CORRECT GENDER, YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS IF I WALK INTO A WOMEN'S BEST FROM, IT'S NOT PLEASANT FOR ANYBODY INVOLVED.

ALL OF THESE ARE DESIGNED TO PUSH TRANS PEOPLE OUT A PUBLIC SPACES.

FOR ME IT IS ALSO A PROFESSIONAL RISK AND AN ATTACK ON TRANS JOURNALISTS WHO, AGAIN, AS A NEW YORK COMMUNIST --AS I NEW YORK, TRANS COLUMNIST I AM SOMEWHAT PROTECTED, BUT THERE IS A RISK.

SO YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LOT OF INTERESTING COLUMNS -- >> YOU'VE USED THE WORD DESTRUCTION OF DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, GOVERNMENTS, DEPARTMENTS, AND THE LIKE.

CULTURAL ORGANIZATIONS.

YOU WROTE WHY EVEN SMART PEOPLE CAPITULATE, WHY DO YOU THINK IT HAS BEEN SO EASY?

LITERALLY WITHOUT A PEEP, ALMOST.

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD REASONS TO OBEY.

SOME OF THE THREATS COME FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AS WE GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS COMPARED TO OTHER PLACES THAT HAVE GONE AUTOCRATIC AND THE THREATS ARE REAL, TO PULL FEDERAL FUNDING, TO GO AFTER OTHER BUSINESSES THAT PEOPLE HAVE.

AND SO, IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE LIKE JEFF BEZOS, MARK ZUCKERBERG, THEY HAVE SORT OF FALLING ALL OVER THEMSELVES TO OBEY IN ADVANCE.

YOU ALSO SEE SOME CLEVER RATIONALIZATION AND REAL RATIONALITY.

HE IS PROTECTING HIS BUSINESSES.

DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, HE WENT AFTER AMAZON TO PUNISH THOUGH WASHINGTON POST.

ZUCKERBERG IS USING WHAT I CALL THE ZEITGEIST AGREEMENT, IT'S NOT SO MUCH A DIRECT THREAT AS LOOK, WE ARE WORKING IN A DIFFERENT CULTURE AND WE HAVE TO ADJUST, THAT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS.

SOME OF THESE ARGUMENTS ARE VALUES BASED.

WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR EMPLOYEES, WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR SHAREHOLDERS.

THESE ARE ALL GOOD REASONS, AS FAR AS THEY GO, THEY ARE GOOD TACTICAL REASONS.

THERE IS ONLY ONE REASON NOT TO OBEY, WHICH IS THAT THIS OBEDIENCE CREATES AUTOCRACY.

IF EVERYBODY ASKED --IF EVERYONE ACTED LIKE THE SEVEN LEGAL OFFICIALS WHO RESIGNED OVER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ORDER TO DROP CHARGES AGAINST THE MAYOR, IF EVERYBODY ACTED LIKE THAT, TRUMP WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO WHAT HE IS DOING, BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE OBEYING.

>> HOW DO YOU SEE IT PROGRESSING?

IS EVERYBODY SHOCKED NOW?

IS IT STUNNED SILENCE?

DO YOU FORESEE THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, ALTERNATIVE FACT UNIVERSES OF SOCIAL MEDIA, THE FACT THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND THE TRUTH, DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TIME, OR IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN?

WILL THERE BE A PUSHBACK AGAINST INDIVIDUAL AND FEDERAL RIGHTS?

>> I MEAN THIS IS NOT A GREAT COUNTRY TO BUILD A RESISTANCE MOVEMENT.

WE DON'T HAVE LOCAL MEDIA, WE ARE POLARIZED, WE DON'T HAVE LOCAL POLITICS TO SPEAK OF, ALL THESE THINGS MITIGATE AGAINST EFFECTIVE RESISTANCE AGAINST TRUMPISM .

AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO HAVE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, WE HAVE THE WEALTHIEST CIVIL SOCIETY IN THE WORLD, WE DO HAVE PRETTY GREAT LEGAL CULTURE.

IT'S NOT OVER UNTIL IT'S OVER.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

TO ALL OF THIS STARTED TO COME INTO FOCUS THIS TIME LAST WEEK, AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

NO SOONER HAD PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TOLD ME IN AN INTERVIEW THAT NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE COULD BE DISCUSSED OR DECIDED WITHOUT UKRAINE, HE WAS BLINDSIDED WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SENT HIS HIGH LEVEL DELEGATION TOURED ENDING THE WAR IN SAUDI ARABIA.

LEADERS FROM EUROPE ATTENDED THE EMERGENCY SUMMITS TO DISCUSS A UNIFIED RESPONSE, BRITAIN'S PRIME MINISTER CALLS THIS A ONCE IN A GENERATION MOMENT FOR NATIONAL AND TRANSATLANTIC SECURITY.

>> THERE MUST BE A U. S. BACKSTOP, A SECURITY GUARANTEE IS THE ONLY WAY TO EFFECTIVELY DETER RUSSIA FROM ATTACKING UKRAINE AGAIN.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, TRUMPS VISION FOR OWNING GAZA HAS WORLD LEADERS ON EDGE.

FOR NOW, A TENUOUS CEASE-FIRE IS HOLDING, WITH MORE PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELI HOSTAGES RELEASED EACH WEEK.

OFFICIALS SAY NEGOTIATIONS FOR THE SECOND PHASE WILL BEGIN AGAIN SOON.

IT WAS IN THIS CONTEXT WHERE I SPOKE TO THE FORMER ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER AND THE JORDANIAN PRIME MINISTER, AYMAN SAFADI, ON STAGE AT THE MUNICH CONFERENCE.

>> I WANT TO ASK ABOUT RAGING ISSUES IN THE WORLD, THE WAR IN EUROPE, THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND HOW WE ARE ALL AFFECTED BY IT AND PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PEACE PLANS FOR BOTH UKRAINE AND GAZA, WHICH ARE, WITHOUT THE UKRAINIANS, AND WITHOUT THE PALESTINIANS.

>> FOR IT TO WORK, UKRAINIANS NEED TO AGREE, THIS IS VERY CLEAR.

AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS PROCESS , IT'S NOT REALLY SURE THEY ARE TALKING.

WHAT IS THIS DEAL, REALLY?

>> WHY DO YOU THINK HE WANTS PEACE?

>> IF HE WANTS PEACE, SIMPLY STOP BOMBING UKRAINE, IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT, BUT HE IS NOT DOING THAT.

>> A SIMILAR QUESTION TO YOU, FOREIGN MINISTER, THE CRISIS OVER 15 MONTHS, SET OFF BY OCTOBER 7th, THE WAR OF AVENGING SELF- DEFENSE BY ISRAEL, AGAIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID, FOR INSTANCE, PARTICULARLY ABOUT GAZA, WE WILL HAVE IT IT IS OURS, WE WILL TAKE IT, WE WILL MAKE IT THE RIVIERA OF THE MIDDLE EAST, AND FURTHERMORE HAS ASKED, INSISTED, EXPECTED YOUR COUNTRY, AND EGYPT, TO TAKE SOME 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS.

YOUR REACTION AFTER ALL THESE DAYS OF HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS?

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO BRING PEACE TO THE REGION, WE SAY WE ARE PARTNERS, WE HAVE BEEN WORKING, STRIVING FOR PEACE FOR DECADES, BUT IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT PIECE, BY DEFINITION, GOING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, IS A DEAL CONCLUDED TO THE SATISFACTION OF BOTH PARTIES.

OUR VIEW IN JORDAN IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HAVE JUST AND LASTING PEACE IS TO HAVE A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT STATE, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL SOIL, LIVING IN PEACE AND SECURITY WITH ISRAEL THAT IS ACCEPTED, AND NORMALIZED WITHIN THE REGION.

TO GET TO DO THAT, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO THAT IF YOU ARE NOT ADDRESSING THE CORE ISSUE OF CONFLICT.

YOU DO HAVE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACHED TO THE LAND AND WANT TO STAY ON THE LAND.

AGAIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE IS DRIVEN BY HUMANITARIAN CONCERNS, OUR POSITION IS THAT WE HAVE A PLAN THAT SHOWS WE CAN DO IT.

REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE SUCH AN AMOUNT OF SUFFERING AND DESTRUCTION IN GAZA, THE LAST TIME AROUND IT WAS 50% OF THE CURRENT DESTRUCTION, YET GAZA WAS REBUILT.

IN ORDER TO AVOID RELIVING THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th AND SINCE THEN, WE HAVE TO FIND A PIECE, THE PATH TO PEACE FOR BOTH PARTIES.

>> I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE GET THE GOVERNANCE OF GAZA, THAT ALSO MEANS THE RIGHTS OF BOTH PARTIES, AND WE, AS THE EUROPEAN UNION, WE REALLY WANT TO BE PART OF THE DISCUSSION, BECAUSE WE ARE THE BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND PALESTINIAN REFUGEES.

I THINK WE ARE ALSO A REASONABLE, RELIABLE PARTNER.

>> VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE DELIVERED A PRETTY TOUGH SPEECH TO EUROPE AND PRETTY MUCH SCOLDED EUROPE, ESSENTIALLY SAYING THE BIGGEST THREAT THAT HE SAW WAS EUROPEAN INTERNAL POLITICS, THAT YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO YOUR PEOPLE, SO WE HAVE THIS BIG PROBLEM, THIS BIG WEAKNESS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> WHEN WE MEET IN PERSON, WE HAVE GOOD, FRANK DISCUSSIONS.

THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT ALLY.

THEY ALSO SAY THEY REMAIN OUR GREAT ALLY.

WHEN LISTENING TO THAT SPEECH, IT SEEMS LIKE THEY'VE TRIED TO PICK A FIGHT WITH US, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT WITH OUR FRIENDS, WE HAVE OTHER THREATS COMING FROM OUTSIDE.

I THINK IN DOMESTIC POLITICS, WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF ISSUES, AND WE ARE SETTLING THOSE OURSELVES, BUT WE NEED TO WORK WITH OUR ALLIES, WITH THE BIGGER THREATS THERE ARE IN THE WORLD THAT WE HAVE WITH THE UNITED STATES, REGARDING RUSSIA, ATTACKING UKRAINE, OR THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER REALLY NOT FUNCTIONING, OTHER AGGRESSORS HAVING AN APPETITE FOR THEIR NEIGHBORS COUNTRIES, THE PROTECTION OF THESE CRITICAL MATERIALS, THERE'S SO MUCH THAT WE CAN AND WILL WORK ON.

>> TALKING ABOUT GOVERNANCE, WHAT THE REPRESENTATIVE JUST SAID, FINALLY THIS NIGHTMARE OF A PALESTINIAN STATE HAS BEEN BURIED.

HOW DO YOU CONVINCE, I KNOW IT'S NOT YOUR ISSUE, AND HOW DO YOU THINK YOU WILL CONVINCE THE ISRAELI POPULATION THAT IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE A NIGHTMARE?

THOMAS, IN POWER AGAIN, WILL NOT MAKE ANYONE FEEL HAPPY OR SECURE.

>> LET ME JUST SIMPLIFY THINGS, WHAT DO PALESTINIANS WANT?

THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS LIKE ANYBODY ELSE, THEY WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE, THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE DIGNITY, THEY WANT PEACE.

THEY WANT PEACE.

AND IN THE CONTEXT OF PEACE, WE ALL ARE WILLING TO COME AROUND AND CREATE THE MECHANISM THAT WILL ENSURE SECURITY FOR EVERYONE, FOR ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

SO, WHEN DO WE TRY THE TWO STATE SOLUTION?

LET US CREATE A NEW REALITY IN WHICH YOU HAVE THE PALESTINIAN STATE LIVING IN PEACE AND SECURITY WITH ISRAEL.

EVERYONE TALKS ABOUT NEW IDEAS.

THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, HAS IT BEEN TRIED?

LET US CREATE A PALESTINIAN STATE WHERE PALESTINIANS HAVE DIGNITY AND THE RIGHT TO LIVE IN PEACE, HAVE ASPIRATIONS, AND GROW, LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY WITH ISRAEL, AND ALL OF US IN THE REGION SINCE 2002, PEOPLE THOUGHT OUT --PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR PEACE INITIATIVE, CREATE A NEW MIDDLE EAST, AND THE KEY IS SEEING THE LEGITIMATE RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS FOR STATEHOOD.

THEY CAN LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY .

AT THE END OF THE DAY, PALESTINIANS ARE THERE TO STAY, THAT'S THE REALITY.

>> SO, A COMMON THEME IN BOTH EUROPE AND ISRAEL AND PALESTINE IS SECURITY GUARANTEES.

HOW DO YOU GET PAST THIS PHASE OF WAR AND CONFLICT IN A WAY TO ENSURE THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN?

IT HAS BEEN FLOATED THAT FOR UKRAINE, THIS PEACE PROPOSAL, THIS CEASE-FIRE POSTAL, IF IT MATERIALIZES, THERE NEEDS TO BE ROBUST SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE, MINUS ANY CHANCE OF IT JOINING NATO.

THEY HAD TO KIND OF MAYBE WALK THAT BACK A LITTLE BIT, BUT NOT MUCH.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS A VIABLE SECURITY GUARANTEE ALONG THE 1300 KILOMETER FRONT-LINE?

NO AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND, APPARENTLY.

DOES EUROPE NEED AMERICAN HELP IN THE AIR, WITH AIR DEFENSES, INTELLIGENCE, AND THE LIKE?

>> WE WERE LISTENING ALSO TO THE DEFENSE MINISTER OF UKRAINE, ACTUALLY IT WAS QUITE PAINFUL TO HEAR THE PROMISES THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN, HE HAD BEEN REFERRING TO UKRAINE HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS, THEY WERE PERSUADED, GIVE UP YOUR NUCLEAR WEAPONS, DESTROY YOUR LOCAL EAR -- DESTROY YOUR NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WE WILL MAKE SURE RUSSIA NEVER ATTACKS YOU AGAIN, AND SO, THEY DID, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IN THE UNITED STATES, WHO GAVE THESE PROMISES, SO, HE WAS EXPLAINING IN A VERY PAINFUL WAY THE SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT WE CAN REALLY BELIEVE IN.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO ANSWER IS THE SECURITY GUARANTEE, THAT IS THE STRONGEST, THAT'S WHAT REALLY WORKS, THE NATO MENTORSHIP.

IT'S THE CHEAPEST SECURITY GUARANTEE, IT REALLY DETERS RUSSIA.

IT COMES TO THIS BEING OFF THE TABLE, WE NEED TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, WHAT DO WE REALLY MEAN?

27 COUNTRIES, WHOEVER IS SUPPORTING UKRAINE, THEY NEED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

IF THEY ARE SAYING WE GIVE YOU SECURITY GUARANTEES, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

ARE YOU WILLING TO SEND TROOPS ON THE GROUND?

ARE YOU WILLING TO PROVIDE CAPABILITIES, AMMUNITION?

IF SO, WHAT AMOUNT, SO IT ACTUALLY DETERS ANY FUTURE WAR AND CONFLICT?

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED BY THE SUPPORTERS AND SECURITY GUARANTEE GIVERS.

>> YOU SEEMED PRETTY DISTRESSED.

ANY QUICK FIX COULD BE A DIRTY DEAL, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT APPEASEMENT.

OBVIOUSLY ALL THE FOCUS, FROM THE UNITED STATES, THE HEAD OF NATO WHO I JUST HAD ON THE AIR, EUROPE HAS TO STAND UP, THERE IS NO OPTION.

DO YOU BELIEVE EUROPE AGAIN?

>> THESE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, EVERYBODY AROUND THE EUROPEAN TABLE, EVERY EUROPEAN COUNTRY UNDERSTANDS WE NEED TO DO MORE FOR OUR DEFENSE, WE NEED TO DO MORE FOR UKRAINE.

WE HAVE DONE A LOT IN TERMS OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE, WE ARE THE BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF UKRAINE, WE HAVE PROVIDED 134 BILLION EUROS, WHEREAS THE UNITED STATES FARES VERY SMALLER.

IN TERMS OF OUR OWN DEFENSE, WE NEED TO DO MORE.

WE HAVE BEEN ALLIES WITH THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS.

I THINK IT IS A VALID POINT.

WE NEED TO DO MORE.

THE OTHER TOPIC IS THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

WHETHER YOU ARE OFFERING TO THE AGGRESSOR EVERYTHING HE WANTS, AND SOMETHING ON TOP OF IT AS WELL.

IF YOU DO SO, IT WILL INVITE ALL THE WOULD BE AGGRESSORS IN THE WORLD, OKAY, THAT WORKS, I WILL ALSO GO FOR MY NEIGHBORS TERRITORIES, AND THAT IS DETRIMENTAL TO WORLD SECURITY.

>> WHAT APPLIES TO EUROPE AND CONFLICT IN THE WORLD SHOULD APPLY TO THE MIDDLE EAST AS WELL, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME STANDARDS, INTERNATIONAL SHOT -- INTERNATIONAL LAW SHOULD APPLY REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE CONFLICT IS.

THAT HAS BEEN OUR VALLEY -- THAT HAS BEEN OUR RALLY CRY, APPLY INTERNATIONAL LAW EQUALLY.

>> I AM A CODIRECTOR OF THE GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT, WORKING WITH WOMEN OF THE SUN.

WE ARE WORKING DAILY, ON THE GROUND, TO CREATE RIDGES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS.

I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THE RELEASE OF ALL HOSTAGES AND THE END OF THE WAR ON THE REHABILITATION OF GAZA WILL COME ONLY THROUGH DIPLOMACY.

EVERYONE KNOWS SECURITY, FREEDOM AND ASPERITY FOR THE NATIONS, WE WILL HAVE TO SEE OUR WOMEN, SEE OUR SOCIETY INVOLVED, WHERE ARE THE WOMEN?

WHERE IS CIVIL SOCIETY?

>> I THINK YOU RAISE AN AMAZING, AMAZING POINT.

WE TRY TO DO THIS ON OUR SHOW.

THE PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS, THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN NOT AMPLIFIED ENOUGH IN THE HALLS OF POWER.

>> THESE ARE VOICES OF MODERATION, VOICES OF RECOGNIZING THE RIGHTS OF THE OTHER.

THAT'S OUR POSITION IN THE WORLD THAT ALLOWS POLICIES YOU HAVE FREEDOM, DIGNITY, STATEHOOD.

>> I WONDER, AS A WOMAN, AS A RULER, AS A FORMER PRIME MINISTER, THERE IS A HUGE MISSING PIECE OF CIVIL SOCIETY, GRASSROOTS, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO THE UKRAINE AND RUSSIA THING, IN RUSSIA, NOBODY GETS A VOICE, IF THEY SAY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE PARTY LINE, THEY WILL GET CARTED OFF TO JAIL.

BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MAY HELP PUSH LEADERS.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, THE DIFFERENCE IS RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ARE NOT DYING, RUSSIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE NOT DYING.

IT'S THE SOLDIERS OF THE GROUND OF OTHER TERRITORIES, WHEREAS THE UKRAINIAN CHILDREN, WOMEN, EVERYBODY IS DYING IN THEIR HOMES.

SO, OF COURSE, WE HEAR THEIR PUT VOICES, THEY WANT PEACE, EVERYBODY WANTS PEACE.

WHEN YOU ARE OCCUPIED, IN WORDS YOU HAVE PEACE, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN HUMAN SUFFERING WILL STOP, AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO WORK FOR.

>> THIS IS MY KID, ONE OF THE SIX U. S. HOSTAGES, HE IS ALSO A GERMAN CITIZEN TO THE FOREIGN MINISTER.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE CONCEPT THAT THE RELEASE OF THE LAST HOSTAGE IS A PRECONDITION?

AND IT MAKES SENSE TO DECOUPLE THE OUTSTANDING ISSUE FROM THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES.

THANK YOU.

>> WE HAVE ALWAYS SUPPORTED THE DEAL, THE RELEASE OF ALL, THAT IS A POSITION THAT WE HAVE HELD STEADILY.

WE HAVE WORKED VERY HARD ALONG WITH OUR PARTNERS, TO MAKE SURE THIS DEAL HAPPENS AND EVERYONE GETS OUT, THAT PALESTINIANS GET OUT, ISRAELIS GET OUT, WE ARE UNEQUIVOCAL IN OUR POSITION ABOUT THE NEED FOR ENDING THIS, AND MAKING SURE WE MOVE BEYOND THIS CATASTROPHE THAT HAS BEFALLEN THE REGION SINCE OCTOBER 7th, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO A FUTURE WHERE NO PALESTINIAN MOTHER OR ISRAELI FATHER WERE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR KIDS OR CHILDREN, COMING BACK HOME, NOT HAVING A MEAL ON THE TABLE, THAT'S OUR POSITION, THAT'S WHY WE KEEP REPEATING, THE VOICES THAT ISRAEL HAS EXPRESSED, THERE ARE VOICES THAT WE NEED THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO MOVE FORWARD AND MAKE SURE NEITHER THE PALESTINIAN MOTHER OR THE ISRAELI FATHER SUFFER THIS REALITY.

>> ON THE HALF OF PALESTINIAN MOTHERS AND WOMEN, WE EMPATHIZE WITH EVERY CIVILIAN WHO LOSES AND SUFFERS, AT THE SAME TIME WE WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE YOU CALL TO END THE ISRAELI MILITARY OPERATION THAT HAS BEEN PROLONGED FOR 77 YEARS.

AS PALESTINIANS WE BELIEVE IN TO STATE SOLUTION AND EMBARK ON A PIECE PROCESS WITH NEGOTIATIONS, DIALOGUE, DIPLOMACY.

YET 55 YEARS LATER, WHAT DO WE WITNESS ON THE GROUND?

MORE OUTRAGEOUS OCCUPATION, MORE KILLINGS ON A DAILY BASIS, MORE ARBITRARY DETENTION, AND LET ME REMIND YOU 11,500 PALESTINIANS ARE BEHIND BARS IN ISRAEL, THEY DESERVE THE RIGHT TO COME HOME, TO STATEHOOD, TO FREEDOM.

SO WE HOPE ALL THE CIVILIANS CAUGHT IN ALL OF THIS, YOUR SON, YOUR CHILDREN, REALLY, I'VE SPENT MY LIFE COVERING THESE WARS, AND ALL THESE WARS AFFECT THE CIVILIANS MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE, SO, THANK YOU ALL IN THE QUESTIONS.

THANK YOU, REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU FOREIGN MINISTER, WHAT A GREAT CONVERSATION.

>> IT WAS A PROPOSAL IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, BUT NOW HE IS TAKING STEPS TO MAKE IT A REALITY.

WILL A NEW EXECUTIVE ORDER SPELL THE END OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?

AS A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE EDUCATION COMMITTEE AT A FORMER PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER, A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN, JOHANNA HAYES IS DOING EVERYTHING SHE CAN TO PROTECT THE MILLIONS OF STUDENTS WHO RELY ON THE DEPARTMENT PROGRAMS.

SHE WAS RECENTLY AMONG A GROUP OF LAWMAKERS WHO DENIED ENTRY BY ARMED SECURITY.

SHE IS JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN TO SOUND THE ALARM ON THE CONSEQUENCE OF TRUMPS PLANS.

>> THANK YOU.

COMMERCE WOMAN, THINK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE'VE TALKED TO YOU A NUMBER OF TIMES, YOU WERE A TEACHER FOR YEARS.

THE FUTURE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION SEEMS TO BE IN PLAY.

WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GOAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?

>> THE CHALLENGE, THE REASON NO ONE HAS AN ANSWER IS BECAUSE THEY ARE CIRCUMVENTING PROCEDURES, NOT GOING BEFORE CONGRESS, NOT LAYING OUT A PLAN, NOT LETTING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FUTURE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION LOOK LIKE FOR THEM.

THAT'S A PROBLEM, WE HAVE A COEQUAL BRANCH AND THE FACT ONE PERSON CAN UNILATERALLY REIMAGINE THE FUTURE OF PUBLIC INFORMATION IN THIS COUNTRY WITH NO INPUT FROM ADDRESS OR EXPERTS IN THE FIELD, IT'S DANGEROUS.

>> FIRST, CANDIDATE TRUMP, NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT HE WANTS TO CLOSE THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

THAT IS NOT A NEW POSITION FOR A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT TO TAKE, MANY HAVE CRITICIZED THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION FOUNDING, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE OBJECTION OTHER THAN THE FACT IT WAS FOUNDED UNDER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER, AT THE REQUEST OF TEACHERS UNIONS?

>> I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE OBJECTION, IT IS VERY CLEAR TO ME THAT THEY DON'T HAVE A FULL APPRECIATION FOR WHAT THE DEPARTMENT DOES.

MANY OF THE CONCERNS THAT I HAVE HEARD ABOUT CURRICULUM, INSTRUCTION, OR EVEN THE CHOICE OF INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIALS ARE NOT THINGS THAT ARE HANDLED PRIMARILY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

WHAT THE PERMIT DOES HANDLE IS CIVIL RIGHTS COMPLAINTS, DISCRIMINATION, MAKING SURE TEACHER PREPARATION IS DONE PROPERLY.

SPECIAL EDUCATION, THE 7 MILLION CHILDREN WHO RECEIVED EDUCATION, THE DEPARTMENT OVERSEES THINGS LIKE THAT, SO MANY OF THE OBJECTIONS I'M HEARING FROM MY COLLEAGUES ARE HANDLED AT THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL BY BOARDS OF EDUCATION.

I THINK WHAT THEY ALSO FAILED TO GIVE AN ANSWER FOR IS I. D. A. , WHICH I JUST TALKED ABOUT, THE PROGRAM THAT COVERS STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES OR SPECIAL NEEDS.

THAT IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT.

EVEN ABSENT THE DEPARTMENT OR THE FUNDING, STATES AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES WILL STILL BE OBLIGATED TO PROVIDE THOSE SERVICES.

THEY ARE NOT SHARING HOW THESE THINGS WILL BE PAID FOR, WHO WILL OVERSEE MENTATION, WHO WILL MAKE SURE THESE THINGS ARE DONE PROPERLY?

THERE REALLY IS NO PLAN, I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE CHALLENGE, AND FOR THE PENNIES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND THESE ARE PENNIES, WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, IT APART AND THAT HAS NOT HAD FULL INVESTMENT WAS CREATED, AND THE TASK TEST SCORES REFLECT THAT, BUT THE ANSWER IS NOT TO TAKE A HAMMER AND TEAR IT ALL DOWN.

WHAT DO WE DO TO MAKE SURE STUDENTS HAVE ACCESS TO EVERY OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE?

WHAT THIS DEPARTMENT, WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION SHOULD BE DOING IS LOOKING AT ALL THE OTHER FACTORS ALREADY, THINGS LIKE KIDS COMING TO SCHOOL HUNGRY, NOT HAVING SAFE AND SECURE HOUSING, GUN VIOLENCE, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT MAKE KIDS ABSENT WERE TRUANT FROM SCHOOL.

HEALTHCARE.

ALL THOSE THINGS.

IF YOU REALLY WANT AN HONEST POSITION ABOUT MAKING SURE OUR KIDS HAVE EVERY OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION, WE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS, NOT STRIPPING RESOURCES FROM THE COMMUNITIES THAT NEED THEM THE MOST.

>> I KNOW YOU AND OTHER COMMERCE PERSONS WENT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION BUILDING IN WASHINGTON AND TRY TO GAIN ACCESS TO PRESUMABLY TALK ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

YOU WERE REFUSED ENTRY.

WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE STEPS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN SO FAR IN THE PURSUIT OF A STATED DESIRE TO SHUT IT DOWN?

>> MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE ACTIONS THEY ARE TAKING ARE ILLEGAL, THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, ALTHOUGH JIMMY CARTER WAS THE ONE WHO PROPOSED IT, WAS CREATED BY AN ACT OF CONGRESS AND ONLY CAN BE DISMANTLED BY AN ACT OF CONGRESS.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE NOT ONLY WAS I AM AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, DENIED ACCESS TO THE PUBLIC ACCESS OF THE DEBARMENT OF EDUCATION BUILDING, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND OFFICERS WERE WAITING FOR US, NOT ALLOWING US TO ENTER.

THIS IS REALLY AN ATTACK ON THE COEQUAL BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT AND OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITIES, BUT BEYOND THAT, THE PRESIDENT HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY I'M NOT HAPPY WITH THIS DEPARTMENT, I WANTED TO CHANGE, BUT THERE IS A PROCESS BY WHICH THAT HAPPENS.

YOU COME TO US AND HAVE OVERSIGHT HEARINGS, YOU LAY OUT THE FACTS, YOU PRESENT THE DATA AND THE INFORMATION TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND THEN YOU PRESENT A PLAN FOR CHANGE.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS AT OTHER AGENCIES ACROSS THE BOARD, WHERE THEY ARE FIRING PEOPLE UNILATERALLY, HAVING TO CALL THEM BACK, SHUTTING DOWN ARMS OF DEPARTMENTS AND THEN REALIZING THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT HANDLE OUR MOST IMPORTANT, SPECIFIC AREAS.

I ARGUE OUR CHILDREN ARE JUST THAT IMPORTANT, JUST THAT SPECIFIC, WE DON'T GET A DO OVER, WE DON'T GET TO SHUT DOWN PROGRAMS THEY NEED RIGHT NOW AND REVISIT THEM IN A FEW MONTHS, WHEN WE FIND OUT WHAT IS IN ITS PLACE OR WHAT HAS NOT BEEN REPLACED IS NOT WORKING.

THIS DEPARTMENT, THIS AGENCY, TRUMP AND ELON MUSK, WHO APPEARS TO BE MAKING ALL THE DECISIONS, REALLY DON'T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING FOR THE COMMUNITIES AND THE CHILDREN THAT ARE GOING TO BE IMPLIED DID IMPACTED BY THESE HARSH DECISIONS.

IT FEELS LIKE THEY DON'T CARE.

>> WE KNOW FROM REPORTING, A NUMBER OF NEWS OUTLETS HAVE REPORTED THAT TRUMP, THE OPPOSITE OF CIVIL RIGHTS, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FIRED.

WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN TOLD NOT TO ACKNOWLEDGE ANY OF THE NEW CASES THAT ARE PENDING, A NUMBER OF WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH COMPLAINTS OF DISCRIMINATION AROUND ACCESS FOR STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES.

DOES THAT COMPORT WITH WHAT YOU'VE BEEN TOLD ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT?

>> YES, OF COURSE, THIS DEPARTMENT IS BEING SELECTIVE ABOUT WHAT THEY PRIORITIZE.

IN CONNECTICUT, ONE OF MY PREMIER INSTITUTIONS LOST ALMOST A 3 1/2 MILLION DOLLAR GRANT, WHICH WOULD HAVE TRAINED 80 SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHERS WHERE THEY ARE SORELY NEEDED.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE PRIORITY OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND THAT FUNDING WAS RESCINDED BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY CALL DPI INITIATIVES.

WELL, DESSERT --DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUDES INCLUDES SPECIAL NEEDS, STUDENTS FROM DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND, ANY AFFECTED TEACHER NEEDS TO HAVE EVERY TOOL AVAILABLE IN THE TOOLKIT TO GO INTO A COMMUNITY AND THE SCHOOL LIKE THAT AND BE ABLE TO TEACH.

THIS DEPARTMENT IS BEING INCREDIBLY SELECTED.

ONE OF THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDERS BY THIS PRESENT WAS TRANS ATHLETES IN K-12 EDUCATION, THESE THINGS THAT AFFECT A SMALL PART OF THE COMMISSION, LESS THAN 3% OF STUDENTS IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES WHO IDENTIFIED AS TRANS- IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, BUT THIS HAS BEEN A PRIORITY.

>> I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT WORKERS IN THE DEPARTMENT BEING SUMMARILY FIRED, MANY SAYING THAT THEY DON'T KNOW WHY.

>> I GOT EMAILS AND TEXTS FROM PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE DISMISSED WITHOUT CAUSE, THEY DON'T KNOW WHY, TERMINATED EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

THAT IS NOT HOW YOU IMPLEMENT REFORM IN AN ORGANIZATION.

YOU FIRST HAVE TO LEARN WHAT IT IS PEOPLE DO, AND MAKE A DECISION ON IF THAT JOB IS IMPORTANT, NOT JUST FIRE EVERYBODY.

WE ARE GOING TO LOSE SO MUCH INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE AND TALENT FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, AND PEOPLE ARE JUST BEING FIRED UNILATERALLY.

I'M HEARING FROM EVERY PART OF THAT AGENCY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAVE SEEN IS THAT IN ORDER TO USURP THE POWER OF CONGRESS, IT'S A ROLLING LOCKOUT.

FUNDING IS RESCINDED, PEOPLE ARE BEING FIRED, ARMS OF THE DEPARTMENT ARE BEING SHUT DOWN, IT'S NOT JUST THE LIGHTS GOING OFF LIKE THEY DID WITH USAID, IT'S A ROLLING BLACKOUT.

ROLLING BLACKOUTS, FUNDING IS RESCINDED, THERE'S A PAUSE ON THINGS, WE WILL BLINK AND SAY WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?

THAT'S WHY MYSELF AND OTHERS IN CONGRESS HAVE BEEN SO VOCAL RIGHT NOW, TO MAKE SURE THE AMERICAN UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING AND IS PAYING ATTENTION.

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYS THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS NOT PROVEN ITS CASE, IF YOU COMPARE STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WITH OUR COMPETITORS AROUND THE WORLD.

READING PROFICIENCY IS NOT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL, MATH PROFICIENCY IS NOT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL, AND WE OBVIOUSLY KNOW THAT THE COVID CRISIS MADE AN IMPACT, BUT SOME OF THESE NUMBERS WERE FALLING BEFORE THAT.

YOU LOOK AT THAT, MANY PEOPLE SAY WELL, IF THE DEPARTMENT IS NOT GETTING THE JOB DONE, MAYBE IT IS TIME TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE?

>> THE DEPARTMENT COLLECTS THIS INFORMATION, BUT EVERY STATE HAS THEIR OWN DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

THE WAY THEY ARE TEACHING THE STANDARDS WILL BE VARIED FROM STATE TO STATE.

I'D ARGUE THAT IN A LOT OF OUR STATES THAT PERFORM REALLY LOW, MANY OF OUR RED STATES, THEY HAVE NOT MADE THE INVESTMENTS THAT PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE.

EVEN IN COUNTRIES WHERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT QUALITY OF EDUCATION BEING HIGHER, THEY HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

PAID FAMILY LEAVE SO WHEN CHILDREN ARE SICK, THEY CAN BE HOME WITH THEM.

A LOT OF THE BARRIERS YOU FACE AS A PUBLIC EDUCATION TEACHER, WE CANNOT JUST TALK ABOUT THE OUTCOME WITHOUT LOOKING AT THIS, I'D WELCOME A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE THE FUTURE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION, BUT IT HAS TO INCLUDE THOSE THINGS.

ABSENT THOSE THINGS, WE ARE NOT COMPARING APPLES TO APPLES.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE ARGUMENT THAT PARENTS WOULD FEEL MORE INVESTED IN THEIR LOCAL SCHOOLS?

YOU CANNOT DENY THE FACT THERE IS A LOT OF DISSATISFACTION WITH PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THERE HAS BEEN A CHARTER SCHOOL MOVEMENT AND THIS PAST, THIS PUSH TO USE PUBLIC RESOURCES TO SUPPORT PRIVATIZED EDUCATIONAL STRUCTURES.

>> PARENTS NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE DEPARTMENT DOES.

YOU TALK ABOUT LOCAL ECONOMY, LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE THE ONES THAT RUN OUR SCHOOLS.

LOCAL AND STATE BOARDS OF EDUCATION, THE PROBLEM IS ALSO A LOCAL PROBLEM, IN HIGH POVERTY AREAS THAT RELY ON TAX DOLLARS TO RUN SCHOOLS, IN THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT, WE HAVE HUGE EQUITY GAPS.

I HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST PERFORMING PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND SOME OF THE LOWEST PERFORMING PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT IF WE ARE ONLY PULLING FROM LOCAL TAX DOLLARS AND YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY THAT IS ALREADY DEPRESSED, THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WILL NOT BE AS GOOD AS THE ONE A COUPLE MILES DOWN THE ROAD.

49 MILLION CHILDREN RELY ON PUBLIC EDUCATION, AND ABOUT 1 MILLION CHILDREN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PRIVATE CHARTER SCHOOL VOUCHERS.

WE DO NOT HAVE 49 MILLION PRIVATE CHARTER SCHOOL SLOTS, EDUCATION SHOULD NOT BE A FOR- PROFIT ENDEAVOR.

WE WANT TO LOOK AT THE STRUCTURE OF EDUCATION AND HOW WE MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS.

TO JUST SAY PARENTS ARE TO SATISFIED, WE HAVE TO TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER TO SAY WHAT ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH?

MOST OF THE AUTONOMY OVER DECISION MAKING IS DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION DOESN'T GO TO A LOCAL SCHOOL HUB TO OPERATE OR TELL THEM WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO, IT MADE SURE FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS LAW IS FOLLOWED, AND THAT CERTAIN THINGS ARE ADHERED TO, BUT MOST OF THOSE DECISIONS ARE ALREADY MADE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

SO I GUESS THE REAL QUESTION IS IF DEMOCRATS HAVE AN ARGUMENT AROUND THIS THAT IS GETTING THROUGH, AND WHEN THAT IS MAKING SENSE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THE DEMOCRATS.

IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT EVERYONE STEPPING IN , STEPPING UP, TEACHERS AND LOCAL COMMUNITY LEADERS, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND WILL FIND THEIR VOICES, TALKING TO PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITY, PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE SAYING, AND HOW PEOPLE ARE VOTING ON THE ISSUES.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND ELECTED LEADERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIX THIS BY THEMSELVES, IT'S GOING TO TAKE EVERYONE WHO LITERALLY HAS A KID IN SCHOOL, CARES ABOUT THE FUTURE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION, AND WANTS TO KNOW HOW THEIR TAX DOLLARS ARE BEING SPENT, THEY WANT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SOME UNELECTED BILLIONAIRE MAKING ALL THESE UNILATERAL CHOICES THAT ARE GOING TO DRAMATICALLY IMPACT THE LIVES OF PEOPLE AND COMMUNITIES.

I MEAN ALL OF THIS WAS LAID OUT IN PROJECT 2025, AND WE SEE , LITERALLY, PAGE BY PAGE, EVERYTHING COMING INTO REALITY, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING 435 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A FIGHT ON THEIR OWN.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LEARN THAT WAIT A MINUTE, THIS IS THE TEACHER AT MY SCHOOL, THIS IS THE AFTER SCHOOL, BEFORE SCHOOL PROGRAM MY CHILD ATTENDS, THIS IS FUNDED THROUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ALL THOSE PEOPLE, AND THEY ARE EVERYWHERE, IN RURAL AND URBAN COMMUNITIES, IN SUBURBAN COMMUNITIES, TO SAY WAIT A MINUTE, I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THIS.

TO THAT END, YOU MENTIONED PROJECTS 2025, AND OUTSIDE INTEREST GROUP, CANDIDATE TRUMP DISAVOWED IT, HE HAS APPOINTED OR SELECTED ONE OF THE AUTHORS OF PROJECT 2025 TO BE THE HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET IN A VERY INFLUENTIAL POSITION.

THE ARGUMENT IS THAT PEOPLE DID VOTE FOR IT, THEY KNEW THE GAME PLAN, IT WAS LAID OUT IN THIS DOCUMENT, IT WAS NOT A SECRET, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE VOTED FOR, THEY ARE, IN FACT, PROCEEDING WITH A MANDATE THAT THEY SAY THAT THEY HAVE.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT GOES BACK TO YOUR PREVIOUS QUESTION, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE TRULY UNDERSTOOD.

THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT ME, I THINK PEOPLE WERE OFFERED THE IDEA OF GETTING RID OF WASTE, FRAUD, ABUSE IN THE GOVERNMENT, BUT THIS IS MY MEDICARE, MY SOCIAL SECURITY, THIS IS THE SCHOOL IN MY COMMUNITY.

ONE OF MY FRUSTRATIONS WITH THIS WORK, WHEN I FIRST GOT ELECTED, PEOPLE SAY IF YOU ARE EXPLAINING, YOU ARE LOSING.

WE HAVE TO MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE, NOT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THESE DEPARTMENTS IN AND OUT, NOT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS.

I HAD TO TELL PEOPLE IN THE CRITIC CAUCUS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION DOES NOT SEE THEY DO NOT OVERSEE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES.

IT LOOKS LIKE A LINE ITEM IN THE BUDGET, THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ROOTING OUT WASTE, FRAUD, AND ABUSE, AND CUTTING PROGRAMS THAT ARE ESSENTIAL TO SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITIES.

I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE THE CASE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND EXPLAIN TO THEM, IN SPECIFICITY, YOU KNOW, DOWN TO THE SCHOOL AND PROGRAM THAT WILL BE AFFECTED, SO THAT PEOPLE TRULY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VOTING FOR CUTS TO THE FEDERAL DEBT, OR FOR CUTS TO THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE OR BUDGET, AND WHAT THEY GET IN THE COMMUNITY.

AGAIN, ALL OF THAT IS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME I REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES ARE PROPOSING ADDITIONAL TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHIEST INDIVIDUALS.

THIS ARGUMENT IS FLAWED, IT IS NOT TO HELP THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, IT IS TO SHIFT MONEY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT THE MOST TO THE WEALTHY BILLIONAIRES AND ELITES.

SO, THIS WOMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SO THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/ WNET.

>> MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, THE FILAMENT FOUNDATION, SETON J MELVIN, THE PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

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