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> HELLO AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
IT'S MORE THAN 25 COUNTRIES.
AND HOW TO CONTAIN IT.
AND --
AMERICA IS ENERGY INDEPENDENT AND LIKE SO MANY OTHER ELEMENTS.
PRESIDENT TRUMP OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION BUT COULD CALLS FOR A BAN CALL CRUCIAL SWING STATE VOTES IN 2020.
I SPOKE TO THE MANAGER OF A WIND TURBINE COMPANY THERE AND, THE TROUBLING DRIVE FOR DOMINANCE IN SILICON VALLEY WITH THE AUTHOR OF THE BATTLE FOR UBER.
AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY ROZ LYNN P. WALTER AND SUE AND EDGAR III, THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE CHERYL AND PHILLIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
CHARLES ROSENBLOOM.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
WITH ALMOST 600 DEAD AND TENS OF THOUSANDS INFECTED THE WU WUHAN CORONAVIRUS SHOWS NO SIGNS OF SLOWING YET.
AND IT SHOWS A CHALLENGE TO PRESIDENT XI JINGPING.
AS THE U.K. CONFIRMS IT'S THIRD CASE THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR HAD THERE HAD A MESSAGE FOR BRITAIN AND THE WORLD.
IT IS OUR HOPE THAT THE GOVERNMENTS OF ALL COUNTRIES INCLUDING THE U.K. SHOULD UNDERSTAND AND SUPPORT EFFORTS AND RESPECT THE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE OF A BOY CREATING PANIC AND NORMAL COOPERATION AND CHANGES BETWEEN COUNTRIES.
SO SLIGHTLY ON THE DEFENSIVE THERE.
HOW DANGEROUS IS THIS CORONAVIRUS THREAT.
SO HE IS A GLOBAL EXPERT ON INFECTIOUS DISEASE.
HE IS DIRECTOR OF THE WELCOME TRUST.
ONE OF THE WORLD'S LEADING PROVIDERS OF NONGOVERNMENTAL FUNDING FOR BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH AND HE JOINING ME FROM LONDON.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU TO REACT AS A MEDICAL RESEARCHER TO THE OBVIOUS PLEA BY THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR THAT CLEARLY FEELS THE COUNTRY IS UNDERSIEGE.
I HAVE A LOT OF SYMPATHY FOR WHAT HE IS SAYING.
I MEAN, WE ALL KNOW THIS STARTED IN THE CITY OF WUHAN IN CHINA.
BUT THIS IS NOT JUST A CHINESE PROBLEM.
IT'S A TIME FOR US TO WORK TOGETHER AND THE FIRST CASE WAS PROBABLY THERE IN MEXICO OR THE UNITED STATES.
SO WE DIDN'T WORK AGAINST EACH OTHER THEN AND WE CAN'T WORK AGAINST EACH OTHER NOW.
SO I HAVE A LOT OF SYMPATHY FOR WHAT HE IS SAYING.
IT CAUSED A HUGE AMOUNT OF OUTPOURING ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
PEOPLE WERE VERY, VERY UPSET ABOUT THAT.
SO WHILE THEY SORT OUT THE CONFUSION ABOUT WHETHER HE'S DEAD OR ALIVE, WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED HAD HE NOT BEEN CENSURED WHEN HE ACTUALLY DID GO TO THEM WITH THIS CONCERN AND EVIDENCE IN DECEMBER.
I DON'T KNOW HIM PERSONALLY BUT ALL OF MY THOUGHTS GO OUT TO HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND I DESPERATELY HOPE HE IS STILL ALIVE.
A NUMBER OF DOCTORS AND NURSES IN CHINA IN WUHAN ITSELF HAVE DIED.
WE KNOW THAT.
I LOST A LOT OF FRIENDS DURING SARS IN 2002 AND 2003 AND THE BRAVERY OF THESE DOCTORS AND NURSES IS EXTRAORDINARY.
IT'S THE SAME WITH EBOLA IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO.
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT.
I DON'T KNOW DETAILS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WENT THERE SAYING.
SINCE THEN I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE SHARING OF INFORMATION HAS BEEN GOOD OR VERY GOOD AND I HAVE NOT BEEN AWARE OF THE COVER UP THAT'S GONE ON THAT'S SOMETIMES BEING ACCUSED OF.
I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO PUT INTO CONTEXT, WHEN YOU'RE A DOCTOR OR NURSE OR PUBLIC HEALTH PERSON WORKING IN THIS SCENARIO IT'S CHAOS.
WUHAN AT THE MOMENT IS IN LOCK DOWN.
THE CITY DESERVES ALL OF OUR SUPPORT.
PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS CLOSED.
WORK PLACES ARE CLOSED.
THE HOSPITALS ARE ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMED WITH PATIENTS.
THEY'RE OVERWHELMED BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INFLUENZA SEASON AS WELL.
IT'S CHAOS AND ON A PERSONAL LEVEL IT'S TERRIFYING.
YOU'RE DEALING WITH AN INFECTION THAT NONE OF US HAVE SEEN BEFORE.
YOUR PATIENTS, THE COMMUNITY, THE PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW.
PROBABLY FRIENDS OF YOURS ARE COMING INTO THE HOSPITAL WITH MODERATE AND VERY SEVERE DISEASE AND SOME OF THEM ARE DYING.
THAT'S A REALLY FRIGHTENING SCENARIO TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF AND I THINK UNDOUBTEDLY YOU COULD LOOK BACK AND NOW WE CAN SAY MAYBE THE AUTHORITIES IN CHINA COULD HAVE HANDLED IT BETTER.
IT'S ALWAYS TRUE WHEN YOU LOOK BACK.
I THINK THE TIME THOUGH IS REALLY TO LOOK FORWARD AND THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CHINA, WHAT COULD WE LEARN FROM THAT IN NORTH AMERICA, EUROPE, AFRICA.
AFRICA IS A REAL CONCERN FOR ME JUST BECAUSE OF THE HEALTH SYSTEMS.
LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT AFRICA BECAUSE THAT IS A BIG CONCERN AS YOU JUST SAID BUT IN TERMS OF WE NEED TO ALL LOOK TO THE FUTURE AND NOW GET -- TRY TO GET IN FRONT OF THIS SPREAD, HOW CAN YOU ACTUALLY, IF YOU DON'T KNOW ALL THE DATA, AND THE RATES OF INFECTION HOW DOES ONE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, GET A HANDLE ON IT.
WHAT DO YOU NEED TO KNOW IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO GET A HANDLE ON IT.
WE KNOW MORE THAN WE DID TWO WEEKS AGO.
AND THAT'S NOT ENCOURAGING IN SOME WAYS.
THE THINGS THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW.
IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER.
OR WOULD I BE INFECTIOUS FOR ANOTHER WEEK OR TEN DAYS.
IF I WERE INFECTED TODAY HOW MANY PEOPLE IF I MET WOULD I GIVE IT TO?
IS IT ONE?
IS IT TWO, IS IT FOUR?
THAT TELLS A LOT ABOUT THE WAY THAT IT'S SPREADING.
IS IT A SYMPTOMATIC?
WILL SOME PEOPLE BE INFECTED AND IF THEY DO WILL THEY BE INFECTIOUS DURING THAT TIME IS IT DIFFERENT OR DOES IT LOOK SIMILAR?
IS IT A SORE THROAT?
HEADACHE, MUSCLE ACHES, COUGH?
WHICH PATIENTS WILL DEVELOP MORE SEVERE DISEASE AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO TREAT THOSE TO TRY TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE DYING.
DO YOU HAVE ANY ANSWERS FOR ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS?
I DO.
WHAT HAPPENS IF THESE SCENARIOS IS YOU START TO GET A PICTURE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS, BIG, BIG PUB LIGAMEN -- PUBLIC HEALTH DECISIONS AND AS THE WEEKS GO ON THIS WEEK COMPARED TO LAST WEEK COMPARED TO A MONTH AGO WE'RE STARTING TO GET A BETTER PICTURE.
SO FOR INSTANCE THE FIGURE THAT I MENTIONED IF I HAD CORONAVIRUS TODAY HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD I GIVE IT TO.
INCREASINGLY THAT'S 2.5 TO 3 PEOPLE.
THE INFECTIOUS PERIOD PROBABLY LASTS BETWEEN 2 AND MAYBE UP TO 10.
MAYBE 9 OR 10 DAYS.
THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL INFORMATION.
REALLY IMPORTANT.
AND THIS MAY BE A CLINICAL BIAS THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN REPORTING IT.
WE HAD A CHILD BORN AND WITHIN 30 HOURS WAS KNOWN TO BE INFECTED.
WHEN DID THAT CHILD GET INFECTED?
WAS IT DURING BIRTH OR WAS IT PRIOR TO BIRTH?
AND AGAIN, THE IMPACT ON GESTATION AND PREGNANT WOMEN IS A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANSWERS TODAY.
BUT WE ARE GETTING -- I WOULD PASS IT TO IF I WAS INFECTED TODAY.
YOU JUST SAID I THINK YOU SAID LET'S SAY IT'S THREE THAT ARE NOT FOR THE SAKE OF KIND OF ARGUMENT, 2, 2.5 TO 3.
THE WHO ITSELF SAID TODAY WE NEED TO BRING THIS VIRUS OUT INTO THE LIGHT SO WE CAN ATTACK IT PROPERLY.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION.
THEY'RE SAYING THAT WE NEED EVEN MORE INFORMATION AND YOU JUST MENTIONED AFRICA.
I WANT TO ASK YOU HOW AFRICA, WHAT YOU EXPECT MIGHT HAPPEN THERE AND HOW IT MIGHT DEAL WITH IT.
HERE EVEN IN THE UNITED STATES REPORTERS, IF YOU LOOK AT THE NEWSPAPERS ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING BACK FROM CHINA AND YOU KNOW SOME OF THEM ARE COMING TO AIRPORTS BUT THEN A LOT OF THEM ARE ON THEIR OWN.
SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO MILITARY BASES.
A LOT OF THEM ARE JUST BEING TOLD GO HOME, QUARENTINE YOURSELF.
IF THAT'S HAPPENING HERE IN THE MOST DEVELOPED HEALTH SYSTEM IN THE WORLD, WHAT HAPPENS IN WHAT YOU RIGHTLY SAY, YOU KNOW, A PLACE AT RISK WITH A NOT SO DEVELOPED PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM LIKE IN AFRICA?
WHAT ARE THE PARTICULAR CHALLENGES THERE?
WELL, OVER THE LAST 20 ODD YEARS THERE'S BEEN A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE TRADE AND TRAVEL ROUTES BETWEEN ASIA NOT JUST CHINA BUT ACTUALLY ACROSS THE WHOLE REGION AND AFRICA.
JUST LOOKING AT WHERE THE CITIES ARE MOST CONNECTED TO CHINA AND ASIA AND IT'S THE AIRPORT HUBS.
IT'S THE AIRPORT HUBS OF THE MIDDLE EAST.
IT'S THE AIRPORT HUBS OF KENYA, OF ETHIOPIA, OF NIGERIA, SOUTH AFRICA.
IT'S THOSE CITIES MOST CONNECTED BY TRAVEL TO CHINA.
BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS IN MANY PARTS BUT IT'S NOT JUST AFRICA.
IT'S ALSO IN SOUTH AMERICA AND VENEZUELA FOR INSTANCE IS REALLY GOING THROUGH A CRISIS IN TERMS OF HEALTH CARE AT THE MOMENT AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS, IF IT WERE TO ARRIVE IN VENEZUELA WOULD BE DEVASTATING.
I WOULD SAY THOUGH AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT, THE CHANGES IN AFRICA IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, THE SETTING UP WHICH CHINA HAS PLAYED A CRITICAL ROLE IN, THE SETTING UP OF THE CENTERS OF DISEASE CONTROL MODELLED ON THE FANTASTIC AMERICAN CDC IS THERE IN A WAY THAT WAS JUST NOT STRUCTURED THERE FIVE YEARS AGO AND ALSO IN NIGERIA JUST CALL OUT THE NIGERIAN CDC, THAT SORT OF LEADERSHIP PERHAPS WAS NOT SO EVIDENT FIVE YEARS AGO AND IT'S CERTAINLY THERE TODAY BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THEY'RE VERY FRAGILE HEALTH SYSTEMS.
DRC HAS NOT GOT RID OF EBOLA YET.
THERE'S MALARIA AND TUBERCULOSIS AND HIV.
SO JUST QUICKLY, WHAT ABOUT THE IDEA OF A VACCINE.
IT SEEMS TO BE CONFUSION IN THE PUBLIC SPACE OVER THAT.
MAYBE WE'RE HEARING THAT'S NOT CORRECT AND IT MIGHT TAKE EVEN LONGER.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS STORY.
THAT PUTS MORE PANIC IN THE POPULATION AS WELL.
YEAH.
NO, YOU'RE RIGHT.
AND I KNOW ROBIN VERY WELL.
A SUPERB ONE BUT I KNOW ROBIN WOULD BE THE FIRST TO SAY THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.
WE CAN SHORTEN THE TIME FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT WE BELIEVE BUT WE CAN'T SHORTEN IT COMPLETELY.
I BELIEVE WE WILL, WE WILL BE IN PHASE ONE TRIALS.
THAT'S THE FIRST TIME IT GOES INTO THAT AND HERE THROUGH THE U.K. WE WILL BE THERE IN HUMAN TRIALS I BELIEVE IN MARCHAND THE BEGINNING OF APRIL BUT THAT'S THE FIRST STEP.
THAT'S THE STEP TO SHOW THAT IT'S SAFE AND IT PRODUCES A IMMUNE RESPONSE THAT WE HOPE WILL PROTECT PEOPLE.
WE THEN HAVE TO GO THROUGH LARGE SCALE TRIALS AND THEN WE HAVE TO MANUFACTURE IT AND WE DON'T JUST HAVE TO MANUFACTURE IT FOR AMERICA AND EUROPE BUT WE HAVE TO MANUFACTURE IT FOR AFRICA AS WELL AND REALISTICALLY THAT'S NOT UNTIL THE END OF THE YEAR INTO NEXT YEAR IF EVERYTHING GOES WELL AND JUST REMIND PEOPLE WE DON'T HAVE THE VACCINE FOR A RELATED VIRUS CALLED THE COMMON COLD SO THIS ISN'T TRIVIAL TO DO.
NEXT YEAR WE MAY HAVE ONE.
IT'S VERY VERY GOOD TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS AND THE COMPLEXITIES OF IT.
I WANTED TO ASK YOU TO ELABORATE ON THE KNOCK ON EFFECTS.
AS WE KNOW, THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS BEING QUARENTINED IN SHIFTS.
THERE'S TWO CRUISE SHIPS OFF JAPAN AND HONG KONG.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY THERE AND FOOD BEING BROUGHT TO THEM, TESTIMONY FROM A LADY WHO CAN'T GET HER DAUGHTER TO TAKE LEUKEMIA TREATMENT.
SHE'S STANDING AT A CHECKPOINT AND THEY'RE BARRING ANY MOVEMENT BECAUSE OF THE CORONAVIRUS AND YET OUGHT OTHER DISEASE CAN'T BE TREATED EITHER.
HERE, JUST TAKE A LISTEN.
Translator: I'M OBVIOUSLY VERY UPSET BECAUSE YOU'RE TREATING PATIENTS WITH CORONAVIRUS BUT OUR ILLNESS NEEDS TO BE EXAMINED BY A DOCTOR.
RIGHT NOW IT'S A SPECIAL TIME.
THE SMALL HOSPITALS IN OUR AREA CAN'T TREAT HER.
WE JUST WANT TO GO TO A BIG HOSPITAL TO GET HER SEEN BY A DOCTOR.
I MEAN, AS YOU SAID, SIR JEREMY, THE LEVEL OF CHAOS AND FEAR AND PANIC ON THIS LEVEL AND ALL THESE OTHER MAJOR DISEASES, IT MUST BE JUST TERRIBLE IN THE HOT ZONE.
IT IS.
I MEAN, THAT'S HEART WRENCHING TO LISTEN TO THAT.
I THINK THAT REALLY BRINGS IT HOME WHAT THIS MEANS, WHAT A LOCKDOWN OF A CITY REALLY MEANS.
IT IS ABOUT CORONAVIRUS, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE NEEDING CARE.
IT'S ABOUT SAFE CHILDBIRTH.
IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE BEING TREATED FOR CANCER AS THAT LADY'S MOTHER WAS.
THIS PUTS ENORMOUS STRAINS ON HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS.
YOU KNOW, CHINA IS ACTUALLY PRETTY WELL-DEVELOPED IN ITS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
THE TRUTH IS I THINK EVERY COUNTRY WOULD BE REALLY CHALLENGED WITH ANYTHING, ANYTHING ON THE SCALE OF WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING IN WUHAN.
AFRICA, OF COURSE, MAY BE DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED AND WE MUST NOT LEAVE THEM BEHIND.
AS I SAY THIS IS A TIME FOR SOLIDARITY.
THE TRUTH IS AMERICA, CANADA, THE UNITED STATES ALL OF THE COUNTRIES WILL REALLY STRUGGLE, PARTICULARLY IF THIS COMES IN THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE DURING THE INFLUENZA SEASON WHEN HOSPITALS ARE UNDER SUCH ADDITIONAL PRESSURE.
THERE ISN'T VERY MUCH SURGE CAPACITY IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, EVEN THE MOST DEVELOPED.
THE CRITICAL THINGS WITH NEED TO DO NOW, NORTH AMERICA, EUROPE, AFRICA HAS NOT GONE LIKE CHINA, WE HOPE WE CAN AVOID THAT.
THE DECISIONS WE'RE MAKING TODAY WE HOPE WILL MITIGATE THE WORST OF THIS EPIDEMIC, BUT WE NEED TO PUT IN PLACE THE WORST OF THE PLANS.
PANIC A CHEECHLTZ NOTHING.
NO NEED TO SCARE PEOPLE.
WE DO QUIETLY NEED TO PUT IN PLACE THE SURGE CAPACITY IN THE UNITED STATES, IN EUROPE, IN AFRICA, IN AUSTRALIA, AROUND THE WORLD THAT WE MIGHT HAVE TO USE AND WE JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT IF WE MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS AND PREVENT BE THIS EPIDEMIC, THEY MAY NOT BE USED BUT THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO PLAN FOR TODAY.
SAME WITH THE VACCINE.
WE MAY NOT HAVE A VACCINE FOR A YEAR, BUT IT WILL BE A YEAR OR MORE FROM WHENEVER WE START AND WE HAVE TO STUART THAT TODAY.
THE WORLD HAS TO COME TOGETHER AS IT HAS DONE AND MAKE SURE WE PUT ALL THE RESOURCES.
MONEY CANNOT BE A LIMITING FACTOR.
WE HAVE TO GET THIS DONE AND THE PLANNING OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM TO THINK THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES OF A WUHAN-LIKE SYSTEM, WUHAN-LIKE EVENT IN NEW YORK, LONDON, PARIS OR BERLIN.
I HOPE THE EXPERTS ARE LISTENING TO THAT WARNING AND THAT ADVICE.
SIR JEREMY, THANK YOU, INDEETD FROM THE WELCOME TRUST FOR JOINING US.
> NOW WE TURN TO ANOTHER STORY WITH MAJOR POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THAT IS FRACKING.
IT IS THE CONTROVERSIAL TECHNIQUE FOR EXTRACTING TRAPPED OIL AND NATURAL GAS AND IT'S A DIVISIVE ISSUE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.
WHILE JOE BIDEN AND OTHER MODERATE CANDIDATES SUPPORT A GRADUAL TRANSITION AWAY FROM FRACKING, SENATORS BERNIE SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN CALL FOR BANNING THE PRACTICE OUTRIGHT.
IN 2012 I WAS VERY PROUD THAT MY STATE OF VERMONT BECAME THE FIRST STATE IN THE NATION TO BAN FRACKING.
[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] PROGRESS IS BEING MADE, BUT MUCH MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE.
I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO ANYONE HERE THAT THE GROWING BODY OF EVIDENCE TELLS US THAT FRACKING IS A DANGER TO OUR WATER SUPPLY, OUR MOST PRECIOUS RESOURCE.
ACCORDING TO A STUDY IN KEY 2020 SWING STATES LIKE OHIO AND PENNSYLVANIA, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF WORKERS RELY ON FRACKING FOR THEIR PAYCHECKS.
SO, JOINING ME NOW ARE TWO PENNSYLVANIANS IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THIS DEBATE.
JOHN FEDERMAN [ INAUDIBLE ] THE ECONOMIC DECLINE IN HIS TOWN, AND LEE VAN HORN COME FROM THE HEART OF PENNSYLVANIA'S COAL MINING COUNTRY AND HE'S NOW A MANAGER AT AVENGRID RENEWABLES, A LEADING WIND POWER PROVIDER.
GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING ME.
GREAT TO BE HERE.
LET US TAKE THIS ISSUE FRONT AND CENTER BECAUSE WE'VE JUST HAD THE IOWA CAUCUS.
WE KNOW KIND OF WHO IS AT THIS POINT AT THE TOP OF THIS PILE AND WHAT IT'S GOING TO MEAN FOR THE NATION, FOR THE CLIMATE, AND FOR POLITICS.
LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.
JUST GIVE ME YOUR SENSE OF THE POLITICAL NATURE OF THE DEBATE AND YOU'VE JUST HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP OBVIOUSLY AS WE PLAYED AT THE STATE OF THE UNION TALK ABOUT WE ARE GOING TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT.
SURE.
WELL, I FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVE THIS ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICS.
I THINK REPUBLICANS NEED TO BECOME HONEST ABOUT CLIMATE.
AND I THINK DEMOCRATS HAVE TO GET REAL ABOUT ENERGY IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND I THINK THE INTERSECTION OF BOTH OF THOSE TRUTHS RIGHT HERE IT'S IN PENNSYLVANIA.
I THINK THE MOST SUCCESSFUL APPROACH IS ONE THAT HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED BY MY GOVERNOR TOM WOLFE TO COMBAT THE IDEA THAT WE REALLY DO AND MUST ACT ON CLIMATE, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE ENERGY NEEDS.
THERE ARE EMPLOYMENT CONSIDERATIONS, AND WE MUST DO IT IN A WAY THAT HONORS THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT ALSO PROTECTS AND SAFEGUARDS THE JOBS OF THE UNION MEN AND WOMEN WHO DEPEND ON THESE INDUSTRIES FOR EMPLOYMENT.
SO, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT.
I OMITTED TO MENTION THAT.
YOU WON THE MAYOR'S OFFICE THERE BY ONE VOTE, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY -- YOU ARE INTWINED WITH THIS WHOLE DEBATE.
SO, JUST TELL ME YOUR STORY A LITTLE BIT, ABOUT HOW YOU'VE COME TO THIS ISSUE.
SURE.
HOW DO YOU BALANCE WHAT MANY BELIEVE IS THE EXISTENTIAL ISSUE OF OUR TIME, CLIMATE?
ABSOLUTELY.
AND THE EXISTENTIAL ISSUE OF JOBS.
SURE.
WELL, BACKGROUND, MY FAMILY AND I, MY WIFE AND I AND OUR THREE CHILDREN, LIVE DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM ONE OF THE LARGEST INDUSTRIAL FACILITIES CERTAINLY IN PENNSYLVANIA IF NOT IN THE COUNTRY.
THE EDGAR THOMPSON STEEL PLANT.
POLITICALLY AS WELL AS MORALLY, I BELIEVE IN THE UNION WAY OF LIFE.
AND THE FACT THAT WE IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO MAKE THINGS AND WE IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO DO IT SIMULTANEOUSLY WHILE HONORING THE ENVIRONMENT.
U.S. STEEL IS LOOKING TO REINVEST 1 1/2 BILLION DOLLAR IN THE STEEL MILL ACROSS OUR STREET TO PRODUCE THE WORLD'S GREEN EST STEEL, WHICH I SUPPORT.
AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT POLITICALLY AS WELL AS MORALLY AND ETHICALLY, WE TAKE CARE OF AND PRESERVE AND DEFEND THE UNION WAY OF LIFE HERE, NOT ONLY IN PENNSYLVANIA, BUT NATIONALLY AS OUR PARTY.
TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
YOU CAN, AS I DO, ADMIRE AND LISTEN TO PEOPLE LIKE THE SUNRISE MOVEMENT.
AND I ALSO ADMIRE AND DEFEND THE RIGHT OF THE STEEL WORKERS UNION AND OTHER UNION TRADES TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILIES AS WELL.
WE CAN'T ALL WORK FOR GOOGLE.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PRODUCE STEEL.
WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER THE ENERGY NEEDS AS WE TRANSITION OVER TOWARDS MORE RENEWABLES, WHICH I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE IS A GOOD POLICY.
BUT THE MOVING PARTS OF THAT DEBATE ARE RIGHT HERE IN PENNSYLVANIA, AND I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ALWAYS AT FIRST, AS FAR AS OUR PARTY GO, DEFEND THE UNION WAY OF LIFE, AND MAKE SURE THAT WE KEEP AND PROTECT THESE INDUSTRIES THAT ALLOW A LOT OF THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES TO EARN A LIVING.
OKAY.
LET ME MOVE OVER TO LEE VAN HORN, THEN.
YOU'RE ALSO A PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT.
YOU'RE IN NORTHERN PENNSYLVANIA.
AND, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE YOUR PARENTS, YOUR FATHER WAS IN THE MINING INDUSTRY, AND YET YOU HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM THAT INTO RENEWABLES.
GIVE US A SENSE, AND YOU HEARD WHAT THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR SAYS ABOUT HOW IT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO PEOPLE'S LIVELIHOOD, FOSSIL FUELS, FRACKING AND OTHER SUCH THINGS, AND WHY YOU HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM YOUR FAMILY BUSINESS, IF YOU LIKE, INTO RENEWABLES.
WELL, I MEAN, I GREW UP IN THE COAL REGIONS, YOU KNOW, RIGHT IN THE HEART OF THE ANTHRACITE REGION.
WHEN I WAS YOUNG I WAS EXPOSED TO IT CONSTANTLY.
I PLAYED AROUND THE OLD COAL BREAKERS AND CAULRYS.
EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE IN THEIR HEYDAY, SOME OF THEM WERE STILL FUNCTIONAL.
MY GRADE SCHOOL WAS ACROSS FROM THE SAINT NICOLAS BREAKER WHICH IN ITS HEYDAY WAS THE LARGEST PRODUCING COAL BREAKER IN THE WORLD ACTUALLY.
AND I, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, MY FATHER, HE WORKED IN THE COAL MINES WHEN HE WAS VERY YOUNG, AND THEN EVENTUALLY, YOU KNOW, DURING THE '60s, THE COAL WAS STARTING TO PHASE OUT AT THAT TIME SLOWLY.
HE WENT INTO MANUFACTURING.
AND, YOU KNOW, MY GOALS WHEN I WAS YOUNGER TO BE -- I WANTED TO BE A DIESEL MECHANIC ACTUALLY.
AND I EXPECTED BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF INDUSTRY AND COAL IN THE AREA, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY DESTINY.
HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, MY GOALS IN MIDDLE SCHOOL EVEN WAS I WANTED LIKE -- I WAS SO SET ON BEING A DIESEL MECHANIC.
MY FATHER SWAYED ME AGAINST IT.
HE REALLY WANTED ME TO GET INTO ELECTRONICS.
SO I ENDED UP GOING TO A VOCATIONAL SCHOOL.
I GOT MY THREE-YEAR CERTIFICATE FOR ELECTRONICS.
I PURSUED MY EDUCATION AT PENN STATE, GOT AN ENGINEERING DEGREE.
AND I ENDED UP WORKING FOR THE SEMICONDUCTOR BUSINESS, A COMPANY CALLED WESTERN ELECTRIC, WHICH WAS THE MANUFACTURING ARM OF THE BELL SYSTEM.
I HAD A VERY REWARDING CAREER THERE.
BUT 20-PLUS YEARS INTO IT -- WHEN I GOT THAT JOB I THOUGHT I WAS SET FOR LIFE.
IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST COMPANIES TO WORK FOR.
AND I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, MY PENSION WOULD BE SET AND EVERYTHING.
BUT THEY CLOSED UP AND MOVED OVERSEAS.
AND LO AND BEHOLD, I WAS OUT OF A JOB.
AND THAT'S WHEN I EVENTUALLY MOVED INTO THE RENEWABLE ENERGY BUSINESS, WHICH WAS THEY WERE BUILDING A WIND FARM RIGHT NEAR ME.
SO I ENDED UP WORKING FOR AVEN GOOD RENEWABLES.
YOU'VE KIND OF MADE A CASE, A VERY ELOQUENT CASE FOR HOW A FAMILY, A PEOPLE, A TOWN, MAYBE A STATE AND A NATION KIND OF MOVES WITH THE TIMES AND WITH THE DEMANDS AND WITH THE ECONOMY AND IN A WAY, A LITTLE BIT, WITH POLITICS AND NUMBERS.
AND I WANT TO READ YOU THESE NUMBERS BECAUSE I THINK THEY'RE REALLY IMPORTANT.
AS YOU HEARD THE PRESIDENT IN THE STATE OF THE UNION SAID, EVEN MORE JOBS WILL BE HAD IN THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY.
BUT CERTAINLY PENNSYLVANIA BOASTS MORE THAN 90,000 JOBS IN WIND, SOLAR ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND OTHER CLEAN TECHNOLOGIES.
BY CONTRAST, ABOUT 20,000 PEOPLE ARE EMPLOYED DIRECTLY IN OIL AND GAS JOBS.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO 2016 FIGURES FROM YOUR DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND INDUSTRY.
THAT, I THINK IS, IS AN AMAZINGLY IMPORTANT STORY.
JUST FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, SINCE YOU MADE THIS MOVE AND MANY FOSSIL FUEL FAMILIES IN YOUR STATE ARE IN THE SAME WAY, YOUNG PEOPLE NEED TO MAKE DIFFERENT WAYS IN LIFE.
CAN YOU ALL JUST SAY LOOK, WE'RE ALL PART OF THE ENERGY FAMILY, WE'RE JUST MOVING INTO DIFFERENT WAYS OF ENERGY?
DOES THE STORY HAVE TO BE TOLD DIFFERENTLY?
I MEAN, YES.
YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE THE SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY, IT'S NOT THE SAME AS IT WAS IN THE '80s IN THE UNITED STATES.
THAT MOVED OVERSEAS AND WE TRANSGRESSED INTO OTHER CAREERS.
RENEWABLE ENERGY HAS AN EXTREMELY BRIGHT FUTURE.
IN OUR COUNTY WHERE I LIVE, THE WIND ENERGY AND COAL IS COEXISTING.
I THINK IF YOU LOOK ON A CURVE, MAYBE WE'RE IN AN AREA WHERE WE'RE INTERSECTING.
SO RENEWABLE ENERGY JOBS ARE GOING TO GO UP AND FOSSIL FUEL JOBS ARE GOING TO SLOWLY GO DOWN.
BUT AT THIS POINT IN TIME WE AR
YOUR STATE, THE PRESIDENCY AND TO THESE ECONOMIC AND ENERGY, YOU KNOW, REALITIES, ARE YOU READY AFTER IOWA TO ENDORSE ANYBODY?
I AM READY TO ENDORSE.
AND I'M HERE TO ENDORSE OUR EVENTUAL NOMINEE.
AND THERE ISN'T ANYTHING THAT I WON'T DO TO GET HIM OR HER ELECTED BECAUSE I WOULD WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY THAT WE HAVE TO UNIFY OUR PARTY AND MAKE SURE DONALD TRUMP IS A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT.
IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE THESE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS, IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THEY'RE COMPLICATED.
TWO THINGS CAN AND OFTEN ARE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
WITH RESPECTS TO FRACKING, I'D WANT TO POINT OUT I'VE NEVER TAKEN A DIME FROM THE INDUSTRY, NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL.
THE DECISIONS AND THE OPINIONS I HAVE ARE COMING FROM, I BELIEVE, ARE AN INFORMED PLACE HERE ON THE GROUND IN PENNSYLVANIA AND I BELIEVE OUR PARTY NEEDS TO HONOR THE UNION WAY OF LIFE AND SAFEGUARD THESE JOBS AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE MUST BEGIN THE TRANSFER OVER TO RENEWABLES AS WELL.
OKAY.
SO, LET ME JUST SAY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, PEOPLE IN YOUR PARTY LOOK BACK AND THEY SEE HILLARY CLINTON HAVING LOST, YOU KNOW, A VERY IMPORTANT STATE BY NOT THAT MUCH.
AND I WONDER WHETHER THIS SOUND BYTE OF HERS BACK IN MARCH OF 2016 IN FULL CAMPAIGN SWING IN OHIO, ALSO A VERY IMPORTANT STATE, ABOUT COAL MINERS AND COAL WORKERS, THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID.
I WONDER IF YOU THINK IT'S A CAUTIONARY TALE GIVEN WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME.
I'M THE ONLY CANDIDATE WHICH HAS A POLICY ABOUT HOW TO BRING ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY USING CLEAN RENEWABLE ENERGY AS THE KEY INTO COAL COUNTRY, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO PUT A LOT OF COAL MINERS AND COAL COMPANIES OUT OF BUSINESS, RIGHT, TIM?
AND WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE DON'T WANT TO FORGET THOSE PEOPLE.
SO SHE DID SAY WE DON'T WANT TO FORGET THOSE PEOPLE.
SHE WENT ON TO SAY HOW THE ECONOMY HAS TO MAKE GOOD FOR THEM AND THEY BE RETRAINED.
BUT IS THAT KIND OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THAT A CURRENT CANDIDATE CANNOT SAY THAT AND EXPECT TO WIN PENNSYLVANIA?
WELL, SECRETARY CLINTON'S WORDS WERE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.
MY CONCERNS ABOUT A DAY-ONE FRACKING BAN, IF THAT WAS EVEN POSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT, IS THAT IT DOESN'T FULLY CAPTURE HOW CLOSELY TIED THE ECONOMIES ARE HERE IN PENNSYLVANIA.
YOU KNOW, PENNSYLVANIA, I BELIEVE, IS A MARGIN PLAY AND BANNING FRACKING ON DAY ONE, IN MY OPINION, ISN'T A MARGIN PLAY POLICY.
AND I FEEL THAT, AGAIN, WE CAN DO AS OUR GOVERNOR HAS DONE, GOVERNOR WOLF HAS DONE, WORK ON TWO ISSUES AT THE SAME TIME.
WE CAN HAVE THIS INDUSTRY, FUNCTION IN PENNSYLVANIA, PROVIDE THOUSANDS OF JOBS, BUT WE CAN ALSO INCENTIVIZE AND KNOW WE ARE TRANSITIONING OVER TO CLEAN ENERGY.
BECAUSE NO ONE ON OUR PARTY AT THIS POINT ARGUES THE REAL THREAT THAT CLIMATE CHANGE POSES TO OUR WORLD.
SO, LET ME ALSO ASK YOU ON THE ECONOMIC LEVEL.
I WONDER IF IT'S A STORY THAT YOU AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OR THE GOVERNOR OR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES CAN TELL THE ECONOMIC STORY.
BECAUSE, LET'S FACE IT, BE FRACKING IS NOT A GREAT ECONOMIC STORY.
HERE'S THE FIGURES.
IT'S INCREDIBLY CAPITAL INTENSIVE.
YOU KNOW, COMPANIES ARE STILL TRYING TO PROVE THEY CAN ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE NOT TURNING HUGE PROFITS.
MANY COMPANIES RELY HEAVILY ON WALL STREET'S WILLINGNESS TO FIND THEM -- FUND THEM.
ONE OF THE HEDGE FUND MANAGERS PUTS THIS THIS WAY.
THE INDUSTRY HAS A VERY BAD HISTORY OF MONEY GOING INTO IT AND NEVER COMING OUT OF IT.
THAT MUST BE IMPORTANT FOR SOMEBODY IN YOUR STATE, AND IS THAT AN ECONOMIC ARGUMENT YOU CAN USE AS YOU MAKE A TRANSITION EVENTUALLY TO TELL PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, AND THE PRESIDENT IS MAKING THE OPPOSITE ARGUMENT, THAT ACTUALLY IT'S GREAT FOR MONEY AND FOR JOBS AND ALMA THE REST OF IT.
YEAH, WELL, AGAIN, IT'S A COMPLICATED ARGUMENT AND -- BUT THE REALITY IS THAT PENNSYLVANIA -- I BELIEVE PENNSYLVANIA IS GOING TO PICK THE NEXT PRESIDENT.
I BELIEVE IN ELECTION RESULTS RECENTLY IN 2019 BEAR THAT OUT.
I BELIEVE BANNING AN INDUSTRY OVERNIGHT ON DAY ONE OF THE OFFICE DOESN'T -- ISN'T COMPATIBLE NECESSARILY WITH THAT SPIRIT.
AND I SAY THAT AS A PROGRESSIVE AND I SAY THAT AS SOMEONE WHO'S NEVER TAKEN A DIME FROM THE INDUSTRY AND WOULD NEVER DO SO.
I THINK YOU LOSE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INDUSTRY IN A STATE LIKE PENNSYLVANIA AND WHAT THAT ALLOWS PRESIDENT TRUMP TO DO AND WEAPON IZE THAT AND CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE A LOT OF THESE INDUSTRIES -- IT'S NOT JUST FRACKING, FEEL THAT THESE WORKERS HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE OTHER THAN GO IN THE DIRECTION THAT MAYBE THEY DON'T EVEN NECESSARILY WANT TO BUT WE AS DEVIN NUNES WIN ELECTIONS SOUNDLY THE WAY THE GOVERNOR AND I DID IN 2019 BY EMBRACING AND PROTECTING AND ADVANCING THE UNION WAY OF LIFE, YOU KNOW, AND HONORING ORGANIZED LABOR IN PENNSYLVANIA.
AND BECAUSE WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, WE ALL CAN'T WORK AT GOOGLE OR ANY OF THESE OTHER HIGH-TECH JOBS.
THERE HAS TO BE PRODUCTION AND MANUFACTURING AND ENERGY.
AND IN MY STATE, RED COUNTY PENNSYLVANIA, POWERS AND FEEDS BLUE COUNTY PENNSYLVANIA.
THERE IS AN INTERDEPENDENCE.
THE ARGUMENT THAT WE HAVE THAT'S BEING MADE DIVIDES US WHEN WE AS A PARTY NEED TO UNITE BEHIND OUR EVENTUAL NOMINEE AND MAKE SURE DONALD TRUMP IS A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT BECAUSE I FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS GOING TO BE A MARGIN PLAY.
AND WITHOUT PENNSYLVANIA IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CORNER, I DON'T BELIEVE HE HAS A REALISTIC PLAUSIBLE PATH TO 270.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR AND ALSO LEE VAN HORN, MANAGER AT AVON GRID RENEWABLES.
THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
FOR MANY YEARS NOW, UBER HAS CHANGED THE WAY MANY OF US LIVE, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO AROUND THE WORLD, IN THE WAY WE SOCIALIZE AND WORK.
BUT THE COMPANY HAS FACED SCANDALS INCLUDING THE OUSTING OF THE C.E.O.. THE 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' TECH REPORTER HAS BEEN COVERING THE RIDE HAILING COMPANY FOR YEARS.
IT PRESENTED THE DRAMATIC RISE AND FALL OF OF A START-UP THAT SYMB SYMBOLIZES EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SILICON VALLEY.
HE TELLS OUR HARRY SRINIVASIN HOW IT SHOULD BE CORPORATE GREED.
YOU'VE COVERED UBER A LONG TIME.
WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT ABOUT UBER, WHAT DID THEY FIGURE OUT?
I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT -- IF YOU CAN REMEMBER IN 2009, 2010, IT WAS THIS MOMENT WHERE SMARTPHONES WERE JUST STARTING TO BECOME, YOU KNOW, A DEVICE, A COMPUTER IN EVERYONE'S POCKET.
WIRELESS, YOU KNOW, HIGH-SPEED CONNECTIVITY WAS BECOMING MORE COMMON IN DIFFERENT CITIES.
AND THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS CRAZY IN RETROSPECT NOW, THAT YOU CAN CALL A CAR FROM YOUR PHONE WAS PRETTY REVOLUTIONARY, RIGHT?
IT GAVE PEOPLE THE IDEA THAT MAYBE THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF THE SMARTPHONE CAN BE MUCH LARGER THAN JUST TEXTING OR MESSAGING WITH YOUR FRIENDS OR LOGGING ON TO FACEBOOK AND SHARING PHOTOS.
AS YOU REPORT OUT, THEY WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TRYING TO THINK ABOUT RETHINKING TRANSPORTATION, RIGHT?
THEY WEREN'T THE FIRST ONE.
SO HOW DID THEY SUCCEED, HOW DID THEY GET SO BIG SO FAST?
I THINK IN THE VALLEY, DARK VALLEY, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING FIRST, IT'S ABOUT BEING THE BEST OR EXECUTING THE BEST.
FACEBOOK WAS NOT THE FIRST SOCIAL NETWORK TO SORT OF BEING THERE.
THERE WAS THE MY SPACES OF THE WORLD.
IT'S ABOUT MAKING THE RIGHT MOVES TO SECURE YOUR DOMINANCE AS A COMPANY.
AND I THINK FOR UBER, IT WAS ABOUT BEING REALLY, BASICALLY REALLY CUT THROAT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.
TRAVIS KALANICK WAS THE C.E.O.
OF THE COMPANY FOR NINE OR SO YEARS, AND HIS WHOLE PHILOSOPHY WAS, YOU KNOW, DON'T TAKE -- DON'T ASK -- DON'T ASK PERMISSION, ASK FORGIVENESS, ESSENTIALLY.
GO INTO CITIES AND REALLY DON'T EVEN ASK FORGIVENESS.
JUST BARGE INTO CITIES.
IF YOU CAN REMEMBER AT THE TIME, RIDE SHARING HAD NO REGULATORY FRAMEWORK AROUND IT.
AND WHETHER CITY GOVERNMENTS WANT US THERE OR NOT, WE'RE GOING TO OPERATE.
AND NORMAL PEOPLE WHO USE THIS APP ONCE WE PUT IT IN THEIR HANDS WILL GET THE MAGIC OF IT AND BE SORT OF ENTHRALLED ENOUGH TO WANT US THERE.
FOR MOST, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, IT ACTUALLY WORKED FOR AT LEAST A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME.
SO THEY WOULD JUST BARREL INTO THESE CITIES, NOT ASK FOR PERMISSION, THEY GET A FINE BY THE CITY.
BY THAT TIME THERE'S A BUNCH OF USERS, AND A BUNCH OF MONEY.
TALK ABOUT UBER GOING INTO HUNDREDS OF CITIES AROUND THE UNITED STATES AT THIS POINT.
CITIES BARELY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENFORCE PARKING OR DIFFERENT SORTS OF RULES AROUND THEIR LOCAL GOVERNMENT, MUCH LESS CATCH A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE DRIVING DIFFERENT CARS AROUND THE CITY.
THERE WAS NO REAL ENFORCEMENT AROUND IT.
IN CITIES LIKE PORTLAND, THEY TRIED TO DO THESE THINGS, PULLOVER DRIVERS BY CATCHING THE CARS.
EVERY TIME -- IT WAS LIKE AN ARMS RACE.
EVERY TIME THE REGULATORS TRIED TO CATCH UBER, UBER TRIED TO OUTSMART THE REGULATORS BY USING SOME DIFFERENT FORM OF TECHNOLOGY TO DO THAT.
AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHERE IT GOT TRICKY AND ULTIMATELY WHAT WOULD BE UBER'S UNDOING WAS HOW FAR SHOULD YOU GO WHEN YOU'RE PRESSING -- WHEN YOU'RE BENDING THOSE RULES AND ULTIMATELY ARE YOU GETTING TO A POINT WHERE YOU'RE MAYBE BREAKING THE LAW OR GOING BEYOND WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING.
HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS TRAVIS'S IMPACT ON THE COMPANY, HIS FINGERPRINT ON THE CORPORATE CULTURE?
I MEAN, LOOK, IN SILICON VALLEY IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MOVE FAST, BREAK THINGS.
IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT YOU HAVE TO -- INCUMB INCUMBENT ARE NOT GOING TO HAND OVER THEIR TERRITORY TO YOU.
YOU HAVE TO PRESS AND BE WILLING TO PUSH IT.
SO I THINK THAT ETHOS IS REALLY INSTILLED IN A LOT OF YOUNG TECH FOUNDERS.
THAT SAID, TRAVIS WAS JUAN OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAD TO WIN, RIGHT.
LIKE, HE HAD TO GO TO ALL LENGTHS TO ESSENTIALLY DOMINATE THE INDUSTRY.
IT WASN'T GOING TO BE UBER VERSUS LYFT OR UBER AND LYFT IN A MARKET OR UBER AND DEE DEE IN CHINA OR ULA IN INDIA.
UBER OWNS THE WORLD.
THAT'S HOW TRAVIS HAD TO OPERATE.
AND I THINK THAT WIN AT ALL COSTS MENTALITY ULTIMATELY JUST TRICKLED DOWN TO THE ENTIRE COMPANY.
I THINK REALLY FOR EVERY FOUNDER OF A COMPANY, THAT DNA IS KEY.
IT KIND OF SETS THE TONE FROM THE TOP DOWN ON HOW A COMPANY IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE.
AND YOU COULD ARGUE FOR A WHILE IT REALLY WORKED FOR UBER, LIKE PUSHING INTO A LOT OF THESE CITIES WITHOUT TAKING NO FOR AN ANSWER DID MAKE THEM SORT OF BECOME UBIQUITOUS UNTIL IT DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, UNTIL EMPLOYEES WOULD DO THINGS, YOU KNOW, THAT EVENTUALLY CAUSED THEM SCRUTINY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
RIGHT.
THAT MAY HAVE GONE TOO FAR.
SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EARLY INVESTORS, DeBOER, WHY WERE THEY NOT ABLE TO REIN IN THIS CULTURE?
THIS IS THE POWER DYNAMIC THAT HAS BEEN A PUSH AND PULL IN SILICON VALLEY.
IN EARLY DAYS, IN THE TIME OF THE MARK ZUCKERBERGS OR LARRY PAGE AND SERGEY BRYNN AT GOOGLE, THE IDEA THAT THE FOUNDER AS THIS SORT OF GODHEAD CULT-LIKE FIGURE PERSON WHO CAN COME IN AND HAVE A REAL VISION WAS REALLY [ INAUDIBLE ] TOO MIDDLE SOME BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO MESS UP A GOOD THING ESSENTIALLY.
I REALLY THINK ZUCKERBERG AND PAGE AND BRYNN MADE THAT MORE POPULAR OVER TIME.
AND OVER TIME, AS VC, VENTURE CAPITALISTS WANTED TO INVEST IN COMPANIES, THEY WOULD ESSENTIALLY GIVE MORE POWER TO THE FOUNDERS OF THESE COMPANIES.
IN THE CASE OF -- LETS ARCHIPELAGO SAY THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, LET'S SAY ZUCKERBERG PRE-2016, YOU KNOW, YOU BUILD A BILLION -- MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY THAT'S DOING REALLY WELL.
IN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO OF A TRAVIS KALANICK OR UBER, YOU HAVE A FOUNDER WHO AMID MULTIPLE SCANDALS, RECKLESS BEHAVIOR INTERNALLY AND MULTIPLE FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS, YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO REMOVE THAT FOUNDER OR REMOVE THAT C.E.O. BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THEY CEDED A LOT OF THE POWER OVER TO HIM IN THE WAY THE CORPORATE STRUCTURE WORKED.
SO, HOW DID THAT PERFECT STORM HAPPEN?
I MEAN, IT KIND OF SEEMED TO BE POST THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY BEGINNING.
THERE SEEMED TO BE A FOCUS ON INEQUALITY AND WORKER RIGHTS, THE RISE OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.
WHAT WERE THE FACTORS THAT MADE THESE BIG STRUGGLES TO UBER SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH WHERE HE HAD TO LEAVE, HE HAD TO BE OUSTED?
YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- PERFECT STORM IS THE EXACT RIGHT WORD.
IF YOU REMEMBER BACK IN PRE-2016, TECH DIDN'T HAVE THE LEVEL OF SCRUTINY IT HAS NOW.
IT WAS IN A HALO.
RIGHT, FOUNDERS WERE ON THE COVERS OF MAGAZINES, THEY WERE AN IDEALIZED VERSION OF WHAT IT WAS TO GO INTO TECH.
FACEBOOK WAS ON THE LIST OF TOP TEN COMPANIES TO WORK YEARS ON END.
POST TRUMP'S ELECTION, WE START TODAY SEE QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW TECH WORKED, RIGHT, MAYBE RUSSIAN INFLUENCE CAMPAIGNS ARE PUTTING DISINFORMATION INSIDE OF FACEBOOK AND WE WEREN'T AWARE OF IT.
MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE CREATING MODELS OF WORK WITH HYBRID PROTECTION -- WOMEN ARE BEING BADLY MISTREATED IN THESE TECH COMPANIES AND NOT HAVING ANY VOICE TO SAY IT.
SO AT THIS ONE MOMENT AND, YOU KNOW, BEGINNING -- THIS WAS SORT OF LIKE THE SEEDS OF -- RUMBLINGS OF EARLY ME TOO THAT WOULD COME LATER IN 2017.
AT THIS MOMENT, I THINK UBER BECAME REALLY THE POSTER CHILD FOR HOW BAD TECH -- BAD BEHAVIOR IN TECH CAN BE, RIGHT.
AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT SCANDALS CAME OUT FOR THE COMPANY AT ONCE.
IF YOU REMEMBER, SUSAN FOWLER, AN EMPLOYEE AT THE COMPANY, PUBLISHED THIS LENGTHY BLOG POST THAT SAID, ESSENTIALLY, SHE HAD SUFFERED REALLY BAD MISTREATMENT AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT AT THE HANDS OF HERMAN JERZ AS SOON AS SHE GOT THERE.
I THINK THAT BROKE THE DAM OPEN FOR A LOT OF SCANDALS TO COME OUT.
GIVEN ALL THE BAD BEHAVIOR THAT'S BEEN DOCUMENTED ABOUT TRAVIS THROUGH THE INVESTIGATIONS -- I MEAN, THERE WAS BASICALLY SORT OF VERY HIGH-LEVEL INVESTIGATION THAT WENT INTO THIS.
UM-HMM.
HERE HE IS NOW NO LONGER WITH THE COMPANY.
YEP.
INCREDIBLY WEALTHY.
YEP.
ALL OF THE EARLY FOUNDERS AND EMPLOYEES OF UBER WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHAT WAS THE CONSEQUENCE?
RIGHT.
THIS IS THE OUTCOME AT THE END OF THE BOOK WE'RE SORT OF LEFT WITH, WHAT ARE WE LEARNING HERE, RIGHT?
DID THEY GET THEIR COME-UP, TRAVIS LEARN FROM THIS ENTIRE THING?
IS HE GOING TO BE A SORT OF CHANGE MAN?
DID THE EMPLOYEES SORT OF FEEL CHASTENED AND DECIDED TO TURNOVER A NEW LEAF?
TRAVIS IS A BILLIONAIRE THREE TIMES OVER AT THIS POINT.
HE'S WORKING ON A NEW START-UP.
HE'S STILL IN GOOD COMPANY.
STILL KBZ GOES TO THE MET GALA, INVESTS ALONGSIDE BLUE CHIP FIRMS.
HE'S HIRED AMONG EMPLOYEES WHO WERE PUSHED OUT OF UBER FORBAD BEHAVIOR FOR HIS NEW COMPANY, RIGHT?
SO I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH HE HAS LEARNED, EXCEPT MAYBE TO KEEP HIS PROFILE MUCH LOWER AT THIS NEW START-UP HE'S WORKING ON JUST TO SORT OF KEEP COVER FROM PRESS SCRUTINY.
I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW.
I DO WONDER IF IT'S A SEA CHANGE IN THE VALLEY.
I TALK TO A LOT OF TECH FOUNDERS WHO SAY, LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO BUILD THE SAME COMPANY UBER BUILT.
I WANT TO THINK ABOUT CULTURE AND ETHICS IN THE COMPANY MUCH EARLIER ON, SO IF WE'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET BIG, WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
SO MAYBE THERE IS A LESSON LEARNED.
THE NEW C.E.O. ON THIS PROGRAM SAID UBER'S BUSINESS MODEL IS SUSTAINABLE.
IS IT?
THE FORMER C.E.O. OF EX PEDIA, ULTIMATELY WE'RE GOING TO GET TO A COST OF STABILIZING AND COMING DOWN AND WE'LL START TO TURN A PROFIT IN MORE MARKETS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO SUBSIDIZE RIDES FIGHTING AGAINST DIFFERENT COMPETITORS IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.
THE PROBLEM IS THEY'RE PUSHING HEAD LONG INTO THE FOOD DELIVERY BUSINESS RIGHT NOW WHICH IS, I WOULD SAY IT'S WHERE RIDESHARING WAS FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.
IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE.
THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE COMPETING AND COMPANIES THAT ARE WILLING TO LOSE -- LOSE MONEY ON EVERY DELIVERY ESSENTIALLY IN ORDER TO GAIN MARKET SHARE.
SO IT KEEPS KIND OF KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD ON WHEN PROFITABILITY IS GOING TO COME.
YOU KNOW, HE CAN SAY THAT THEY HAVE A PATH TO PROFITABILITY.
THEY'RE SAYING 2021 IS WHEN THEY'RE AIMING TO BECOME PROFITABLE.
BUT IT'S HARD BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO GROW AND THEY'RE LOSING MONEY ON ALL THE BUSINESSES THEY'RE BREAKING INTO.
I WILL WAIT TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT.
HOW ARE THEY DEALING WITH THE DRIVERS AND THE PUSHBACK THEY'VE BEEN RECEIVING FOR THEM FOR SO LONG?
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED QUICKLY, THE TIPS, SOMETHING DRIVERS WANTED.
WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO KEEP DRIVERS HAPPY?
WHETHER YOU HAVE EMPLOYEES OR NOT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE DRIVERS YOU DON'T HAVE A SERVICE.
ONE OF THE OVERSIGHTS OF TRAVIS'S ERA WAS SEEING DRIVERS AS DISPOSABLE ESSENTIALLY.
IF I DON'T TREAT DRIVERS WELL, IF WE DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THEIR PAY ALL THE TIME AND THEIR CONCERNS, THEN WE CAN ALWAYS GET NEW ONES.
QUICKLY UBER REALIZED AND DARA HAS MADE A PRIORITY TO CHANGE RELATIONSHIP WITH DRIVERS OVER TIME, START TO OFFER THEM LIMITED ADVICE ON HOW TO HANDLE TAX PREPARATION OR AT LEAST GIVING THEM DIFFERENT ADVISORS THERE, OR SENDING THEM TO, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL BENEFITS PLANS THAT THEY CAN GO FIND ON THEIR OWN.
IT'S A REAL DIFFICULTY.
IF THEY HELP THEM TOO MUCH, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THEY'RE TREATING THEM LIKE EMPLOYEES, WHICH, AGAIN, THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.
THE DRIVERS ARE GOING TO GET UPSET AND SAY YOU'RE MISTREATING US.
THEY'RE TRYING.
THEY'RE DOING THIS PROGRAM OF CHANGE AND WE VALUE OUR DRIVERS, BUT IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE TENSE BECAUSE THEY ONLY CAN VALUE THEM SO MUCH.
WHAT ABOUT THE CONCERNS OF PASSENGERS HAVE HAD OVERRIDE SAFETY?
I MEAN 99.9% OF THESE RIDE SHARING APPS AND THE RIDES THAT HAPPEN ARE FINE AND THEY'RE SAFE.
BUT EVEN JUST GIVEN THE VOLUME, EVEN IF IT'S THAT .1%. THAT'S A LOT OF RIDES, LOT OF BAD EXPERIENCES, WE'VE HAD REPORTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND RAP IN UBER VEHICLES.
YEP.
BY UBER DRIVERS.
WHAT'S THE COMPANY DOING IT?
I THINK YOU NAILED IT ON THE SCALE IDEA.
NOT JUST UBER, BUT ANY OF THESE COMPANIES.
IF YOU'RE DOING SAY MILLIONS OF RIDES A DAY OR FOR FACEBOOK, BILLIONS OF PIECES OF CONTENT PER DAY OR WHATEVER, EVEN JUST A FRACTION OF THAT IS A LOT OF PEOPLE.
IT AFFECTS A LOT OF PEOPLE.
SO I THINK SOMETHING THE COMPANY WILL NEVER SAY IS YOU CAN NEVER FULLY GET RID OF THIS BECAUSE THAT'S JUST HOW THE WORLD WORKS.
BUT WHAT THEY DO IS TRY TO MINIMIZE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
SO UBER HAS COME OUT TO THEIR CREDIT, HAVE COME OUT WITH A NUMBER OF SAFETY MECHANISMS THAT NEVER EXISTED IN THE APP FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
THERE'S WAYS TO EXCEPTED YOUR LOCATION TO PEOPLE SO THEY KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING ON THE WAY TO YOUR RIDE.
THERE'S ESSENTIALLY A PANIC BUTTON THAT CAN CALL 911 IF YOU FEEL UNSAFE OR DANGEROUS OR YOU GO OFF IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
THERE IS A WAY TO -- FOR THE COMPANY TO DETECT IF THE DRIVER IS GOING OFF ROUTE FOR A VERY EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME WHICH MIGHT MEAN IRREGULAR ACTIVITY.
THEY BUILT IN MORE MECHANISM AND PEOPLE ON THE SAFETY TEAM.
I WILL GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR THAT.
ANYONE WHO OPERATES A COMPANY THAT SERVES LITERAL BILLIONS OF PEOPLE RECOGNIZES YOU CAN NEVER GET SOMETHING 100% SAFE.
DOES THE GIG ECONOMY WORK?
THERE IS NOW AN UBER FOR EVERYTHING.
YOU CAN GET YOUR TASKS DONE.
LOTS OF DIFFERENT SERVICES WHERE CONTRACTORS COME IN AND FILL THE GAP.
WHAT IS THE RIPPLE EFFECT ON OUR ECONOMY IF THAT IS A LEGITIMATE AVENUE FOR PEOPLE TO FIND EMPLOYMENT?
I THINK THERE ARE A FEW THINGS GOING ON.
I THINK ONE, IN THE WAKE OF UBER THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY AN UBER FOR ANYTHING.
WITH ANY START-UPS, A LOT WILL FAIL BECAUSE THE BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERYTHING.
IT'S NOT INFINITELY REPEATABLE.
SOME ARE STARTING TO HIT WALLS.
TASK RABBIT WAS BOUGHT BY IKEA BECAUSE IT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ENOUGH OF A STAND-ALONE BUSINESS.
THOSE THAT DO MAKE IT, IT CHANGES HOW WE THINK ABOUT WORK AND EMPLOYMENT AND HOW PEOPLE EXIST IN CITIES, RIGHT.
I'M THINKING ABOUT ALL THE FOOD DELIVERY COMPANIES NOW, THAT HAS AN AFFECT ON LOCAL BUSINESS.
IT HAS AN EFFECT ON RETAIL RESTAURANTS WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT NOT BE WALKING IN AND COMING OFFER THE STREET ANY MORE BECAUSE THEY CAN SIT AT HOME AND WATCH NETFLIX OVER THE COST OF THE FOOD.
THEY'RE TRYING TO COME IN AND GIVE YOU CHEAPER MEALS.
THERE ARE EFFECTS THIS HAS.
OR AMAZON, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY REPLACED MALLS AT THIS POINT.
IT DEFINITELY HAD AN EFFECT ON RETAIL.
IT CHANGES HOW WE GET SERVICES AND HOW WE THINK THESE SERVICES SHOULD WORK.
BUT I DO THINK, I DO THINK WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THE COSTS IN THAT AND SEE WHO IT AFFECTS.
IN THE CASE OF UBER IT WAS TAXI DRIVERS.
IN THE CASE OF AMAZON T IT'S RETAILERS AND SHOPS.
IN THE CASE OF FOOD DELIVERY.
IT'S FOOD RESTAURANTS.
THAT UPHEAVAL HAS A COST AND PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT.
TELL ME THE THROUGH LINE BETWEEN THE EXAMPLES YOU GAVE, WE END UP VALUING OUR CONVENIENCE MORE THAN THINKING ABOUT WHAT THOSE RIPPLE EFFECTS ARE IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT GO AWAY, IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN THE MALL GO AWAY, IF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN TAXIS GO AWAY.
I THINK IT REALLY ABSTRACTS, IT'S KIND OF LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE.
THE BIG PICTURE IS SUBTRACTED FROM WHAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU AT THE MOMENT.
MAYBE AMAZON IS BAD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IN THE WAY THEY CAN SHIP MILLIONS OF CARDBOARD PACKAGES EVERY DAY.
ALL I KNOW IS I WANT TO GET MY PAPER TOWELS AND TOILET PAPER WITHIN 18 HOURS IF I PRESS THIS ONE BUTTON, RIGHT?
IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SYSTEM IS BUILT TO ABSTRACT THE COSTS OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING BECAUSE IT'S SO MUCH LARGER.
AND SO I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO CYNICAL BECAUSE I DO THINK WE'RE IN A MOMENT NOW WHERE PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO THINK MORE ABOUT THESE EFFECTS AND WHAT THEY CAN DO INDIVIDUALLY TO CHANGE THEM.
BUT IT'S HARD WHEN, WHEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PRESS A BUTTON AND IT'S MUCH MORE CONVENIENT THAN IT'S EVER BEEN BEFORE.
MIKE ISAAC, THANKS SO MUCH.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
AND FINALLY WE REMEMBER A TOWERING ICON OF AMERICAN CINEMA AND ONE OF THE LAST LIVING ACTORS OF HOLLYWOOD'S GOLDEN AGE.
KIRK DOUGLAS PASSED AWAY ON WEDNESDAY AT THE AGE OF 103.
THROUGHOUT HIS VARIED CAREER HE STARRED IN SPARTACUS, AND BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL.
I SPOKE TO HIS SON MICHAEL DOUGLAS.
HE TOLD ME HOW HIS FATHER'S BREAK OUT ROLE HAD INTENSITY.
THAT'S WHERE THAT CHOMPING, LIKE HE'S CHOMPING DOWN ON HIS BACK MOLARS AND FIGHTING THROUGH SCENARIO KIND OF BEGAN.
AND THAT WAS THE PERSONIFICATION, THAT INNER RAGE READY TO EXPLODE.
AND HE WAS VERY, VERY POWERFUL ON SCREEN AND USED IT VERY WELL.
WAS IT SCARY AS A KID?
YEAH, YEAH, SURE.
NO, HE HAD A LOT OF -- NEVER QUITE SURE WHERE HE CAME FROM.
HE'S A WHITE RUSSIAN.
I THINK HE WAS PROBABLY PERCEIVED AS NOT BEING JEWISH.
I THINK HE PROBABLY SAW A LOT OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN HIS LIFETIME, PEOPLE NOT ACKNOWLEDGING OR THINKING HE ACTUALLY WAS JEWISH.
BUT HE -- IT WAS THAT SAME ENERGY, THAT INCREDIBLE STAMINA, THAT TENACITY, THAT SENSE OF STRUGGLE THAT SERVED HIM VERY WELL.
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DON'T KNOW AS MUCH, CHRISTIANE, IS HIS HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS HE'S MADE IN HIS LIFE AND HIS BELIEVES IN TRYING TO REPAIR THE WORLD TO MAKE IT A BETTER PLACE.
AND THROUGH A YEAR OF ACQUIRING A LARGE FORTUNATE, HE'S NOW BASICALLY GIVING IT ALL AWAY TO CHARITY AND TO OTHER.
HE'S OVERCOME ALL SORTS OF STROKES AND HELICOPTER CRASHES AND ALL OF THAT.
THE CHILD OF RUSSIAN JEWS WHO LEFT BELARUS TO FIND A BETTER LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES, KIRK DOUGLAS USED THAT IMPETUS TO BECOME HOLLYWOOD'S BIGGEST AND BRIGHTEST STAR OF HIS TIME.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER TO FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS AND DO JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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