Read Full Transcript EXPAND
> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
EVERY SENATOR, DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN, HAS TO APPROACH THIS TRIAL WITH THE GRAVITY IT DESERVES.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, A PRESIDENT FACES SENATE TRIAL TWICE.
FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATOR BOB CORKER JOINS ME ABOUT HOLDING TRUMP ACCOUNTABLE.
ALSO AHEAD.
MRS.áROBINSON, YOU'RE TRYING TO SEDUCE ME.
I HAVE A HEAD FOR BUSINESS, AND A BOD FORá--
THE GOLDEN TOUCH OF DIRECTOR MIKE NICHOLS, BIOGRAPHER MIKE HARRIS TELLS ME HOW THE JEWISH REFUGEE FROM GERMANY SCALED THE HOLLYWOOD HEIGHTS.
THEN.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE COME TO A PLACE WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS SLID TOWARD A FORUM OF AUTHORITARIANISM OR OLE GAR CAN I.
SHE DRILLS DOWN WITH EYES SACK SON ON THE GOP'S WAR WITHIN.
AND FINALLY.
♪ BABY LOVE, BABY LOVEá♪
SHE REIGNS SUPREME, CELEBRATING THE LIFE AND CAREER OF MARY WILSON.
♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
Announcer: AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILLSTEIN FAMILY.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
AND SO THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP BEGINS.
DEMOCRATS OPEN THE PROCEEDINGS WITH THIS DRAMATIC VIDEO OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th TO MAKE THEIR CASE FOR CHARGING TRUMP WITH INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION FOR HIS ROLE IN THE VIOLENT RIOTS AND THE INVASION OF THE CAPITOL THAT LEFT FIVE PEOPLE DEAD, INCLUDING A POLICE OFFICER.
TRUMP'S DEFENSE CLAIMS THIS TRIAL OF A FORMER PRESIDENT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND THAT HIS RHETORIC WAS PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
DONALD TRUMP IS THE ONLY U.S.
PRESIDENT IN HISTORY TO BE IMPEACHED TWICE.
AND THIS IS BOUND TO BE A MORE EMOTIONAL AFFAIR, ALTHOUGH LAWMAKERS PRESIDING OVER THIS ONE SAW FIRSTHAND THE EXTREMIST TRUMP LEGION STORMING THEIR OWN BUILDING.
TODAY SENATE MAJORITY LEADER CHUCK SCHUMER TOLD THE CHAMBER.
THERE MUST BE TRUTH AND ACCOUNTABILITY IF WE ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD, HEAL AND BRING OUR COUNTRY TOGETHER ONCE AGAIN.
SWEEPING SOMETHING AS MOMENTOUS AS THIS UNDER THE RUG BRINGS NO HEALING WHATSOEVER.
LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
NOW, THE LATEST POLLING SHOWS THAT 57% OF AMERICAN ADULTS ASKED WANT TRUMP TO BE BARRED FROM EVER HOLDING OFFICE AGAIN.
THIS IS ALL TAKING PLACE AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF A REPUBLICAN PARTY AT WAR WITH ITSELF.
THE FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE BOB CORKER JOINS ME NOW, AN EARLY TRUMP CRITIC, HE DECIDED NOT TO SEEK REELECTION IN 2018.
AND WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, SENATOR CORKER.
SO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU OUTRIGHT.
YOU WERE AN EARLY CRITIC.
DO YOU FEEL VINDICATED BY WHAT TRUMP HAS PROVEN HIMSELF TO BE?
WELL, FIRST, IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME.
AND THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.
LOOK, WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL WAS DISGRACEFUL.
WHAT HAPPENED LEADING UP TO IT WHERE HARD WORKING AMERICANS WERE LED TO BELIEVE CONGRESS COULD OVERTURN AN ELECTION OR THAT VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE COULD OVERTURN AN ELECTION, ALL OF THAT IS TOTALLY DISGRACEFUL.
SO, YES, I MEAN, ON ONE HAND I'M SADDEN TODAY SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR COUNTRY.
I'M SADDENED THE WORLD SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR COUNTRY.
AND SO AT THE SAME TIME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE PERSON THAT I SAW AND KNEW IN LIVING COLOR.
AND SO I DON'T WANT TO BE VINDICATED.
I KNOW THAT'S THE WORD THAT HAS BEEN USED.
HE JUST DEMONSTRATED TO ALL OF THE WORLD, TO OUR COUNTRY THE KIND OF PERSON THAT HE WAS.
LET'S JUST BE CLEAR.
YOU SAID TO POLITICO, MY OBSERVATIONS ABOUT HIS CHARACTER AND HIS CONDUCT CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN VALIDATED UNFORTUNATELY WITH PEOPLE'S LIVES BEING LOST.
AND OUR COUNTRY APPEARING TO BE RUN BY TIN-POT DICTATOR TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.
> I'M SITTING HERE IN LONDON AND PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN AND THE RESULT OF THIS TRIAL.
AND THEY HAVE BEEN WATCHING THIS WITH DISMAY, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.
YOU WERE ONCE, YOU KNOW, SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO THE WORLD.
WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS TO HAPPEN IN THIS TRIAL TO RESTORE AMERICA'S REPUTATION, ACCOUNTABILITY, NOT JUST AT HOME, BUT FOR THE WORLD THAT YOU SEEK TO INFLUENCE?
YEAH, SO, I DON'T THINK ANYTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS TRIAL THAT WILL DO THAT.
I DON'T.
IT LOOKS LIKE EVERY SENATOR IS SUPPOSED TO BE A JURIST AND VIEW THEMSELVES AS THAT WAY, TO LISTEN TO THE TESTIMONY AS A JURIST, NOT TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO UNTIL THEY'VE HEARD ALL THE TESTIMONY.
AND YET IT DOES FEEL LIKE, DOESN'T IT, THAT PEOPLE HAVE SORT OF GONE OFF IN CORNERS.
THERE'S A FEW PEOPLE WHO MAY BE UP IN THE AIR, IT SEEMS.
THERE IS A REAL CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE, I KNOW, FOR MANY OF THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS AND THERE HAS BEENá-- THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS AND I KNOW THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THAT.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT FEELS TO ME LIKE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH HOW WE'RE VIEWED AROUND THE WORLD.
HE IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY THE MERE FACT THIS IMPEACHMENT PROCESS IS TAKING PLACE.
I DO WISH THE HOUSE HAD TAKEN MORE TIME AND DONE IT MORE THOUGHTFULLY, VERSUS NOT HAVING ANY HEARINGS.
I THINK IT WOULD HAVE LED TO A MORE WEIGHTY DISCUSSION HAD THAT OCCURRED.
BUT, LOOK, AS YOU KNOW AND WE'VE SORT OF LIVED SOME OF OUR LIVES ON WHAT WE'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON.
YOU OBVIOUSLY IN MUCH BETTER DEPTH THAN ME.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT AS A COUNTRY BY WHAT WE DO, HOW WE ACT, HOW WE MOVE AHEAD.
AND THE DISCUSSION NEEDS TO MOVE BEYOND OUR FORMER PRESIDENT.
IT NEEDS TO MOVE TO WHAT WE'RE DOING AROUND THE WORLD, WHAT OUR POLICIES ARE, HOW WE REACT WITH EACH OTHER AT THE CAPITOL, AND HOW WE PURSUE LEGISLATION.
WE'VE GOT TO DEMONSTRATE THAT WE ARE A GREAT DEMOCRACY, AND WE'VE GOT TO ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO TRY TO EMULATE WHAT WE'RE DOING, NOT BE EMBARRASSED BY WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.
LET ME JUST ASK YOU ABOUT ONE OF THE POINTS YOU RAISE, AND THAT IS THE CONSTITUTIONALITY, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HIS DEFENSE IS GOING TO REALLY LATCH ONTO.
THAT IS THEIR DEFENSE.
BUT LET ME READ YOU THIS AND SEE WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT.
HIGHLY INFLUENTIAL LAWYER CHUCK COOPER, GIVEN THE SENATE COMMITS TO PERMANENT QUALIFICATION ONLY ON FORMER OFFICE HOLDERS, IT SUGGESTS THE SENATE IS PROHIBITED FROM TRYING AND CONVICTING FORMER OFFICE HOLDERS.
THE SENATE WHO SUPPORTED THE MOTION, I.E., IT WAS CONSTITUTIONAL SHOULD RECONSIDER THEIR VIEW AND JUDGE THE FORMER PRESIDENT ON THE MERITS.
AS A REPUBLICAN AND A CONSERVATIVE YOURSELF, THAT'S PRETTY WEIGHTY FROM CHUCK COOPER.
IT IS.
AND THEN THERE'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, MR.áCARRAWAY WHO ARGUED THE OTHER SIDE.
HERE'S THE WAY THINGS GENERALLY WORK, OKAY, HAVING BEEN THERE.
FIRST OF ALL, I HOPE EVERY SENATOR WILL LISTEN TO THE TESTIMONY AND MAKE A DECISION BASED ON THE TESTIMONY ITSELF.
BUT WHEN PEOPLE WANT SOMETHING TO HANG THEIR HAT ON, THEY REALLY WANT TO BE ABLE TO SAY, WELL, I MIGHT HAVE DONE THIS, BUTá-- WHEN THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO HANG THEIR HAT ON AND TO SAY THAT FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, IT'S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL, IT IS A WAY FOR THEM TO SAYá-- TO TAKE THAT PATH, IF YOU WILL.
AND SO I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL DO THAT.
BASED ON WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME ABOUT THE TESTIMONY EARLIER TODAY, I THINK IT IS GOING TO BRING BACK THOSE DEEP MEMORIES OF WHAT OCCURRED AND JUST THE WHOLE UNTRUTH TELLING THAT TOOK PLACE AND LED OUR COUNTRY TO THIS PLACE.
SO WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
I HOPE ALL SENATORS GO INTO THIS REALIZING WHAT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS, AND THAT IS TO LISTEN, MAKE A JUDGMENT BASED ON THEIR CONSCIENCE, AND DECIDE WHAT THEY THINK SHOULD HAPPEN IN THIS CASE.
SO YOU'VE RAISED SOME REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS.
AND, YES, THAT EARLY TESTIMONY IN THE SHAPE OF THE VIDEO THAT WE SHOWED AND IT'S BEEN SHOWN TO THE WHOLE CHAMBER, WAS A PRETTY DRAMATIC REMINDER OF JUST WHAT HAPPENED, AND WHAT THE PRESIDENT WAS DOING ON THAT DAY AND WHAT HE WAS SAYING ON THAT DAY.
OF COURSE, THIS GOES WAY BEYOND, THE BIG LIE AS YOU CALL IT, HAD BEEN CEDED EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTION.
LET ME ASK YOU THE FOLLOWING.
YOU SAID YOU HOPE THAT ALL THE SENATORS LISTEN TO THE TESTIMONY.
THE DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN ADAM SCHIFF HAS SAID THAT HE THINKS MAYBE ALL THE GOP SENATORS AND OTHERS MAY NOT HAVE SEEN ALL THE EVIDENCE YET.
THEY MAY BE SURPRISED BY SOME OF WHAT COMES OUT.
LET ME JUST ASK YOU POINT BLANK.
WOULD YOU VOTE TO CONVICT, KNOWING EVERYTHING THAT YOU KNOW?
IF HE WAS STILL THERE?
AGAIN, I STILLá-- I KNOW I'M NOT A SENATOR, BUT I STILL HOLD MYSELF TO THAT STANDARD, AND I WOULD WANT TO LISTEN.
AND I KNOW THAT NUMBERS OF REPUBLICAN SENATORS HAVE INDICATED THAT THEY WANT TO HEAR ALL THE TESTIMONY.
I THINK SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE IMPORTANT TO THOSE WHO MAY BE ON THE BUBBLE AS THEY GO INTO IT, WHICH HOPEFULLY EVERYBODY IS, BUT YOU KNOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MIND.
WHAT WAS HAPPENING DURING THE TIME OF THE INSURGENCY, WHAT WAS THE PRESIDENT DOING DURING THAT TIME?
WHO WAS HE TALKING WITH?
I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF CONTEXT HERE THAT COULD ULTIMATELY BE VERY IMPORTANT.
I'VE READ WHERE THE PRESIDENT'S TESTIMONY IS GOING TO BE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.
I DON'T THINK THAT APPROACH WILL SIT WELL, I DON'T.
I THINK, I THINK MOST PEOPLE REALIZE THAT ALL OF THIS WAS BASED ON UNTRUTHS, ALL OF IT.
60 CASES LOST, AND MY SENSE IS THAT IF THAT'S THEIR CASE, IT COULD WELL AFFECT A NUMBER OF SENATORS WHO OTHERWISE MIGHT NOT HAVE VOTED TO AFFIRMá-- TO AFFIRM THIS IMPEACHMENT.
IT COULD MOVE THEM IN THAT DIRECTION.
I THINK THAT'S A DANGEROUS APPROACH FOR THE PRESIDENT TO TAKE.
SO, I'M READING THAT IT MIGHT HAVE MOVED YOU IN THAT DIRECTION AS WELL.
I JUST WANT TOá-- ONE LAST TRY ON THIS.
IF YOU DON'T MINDá--
YEAH?
I JUSTá-- I TAKEá-- EVEN THOUGH I DON'T SIT ON THE BODY ANY MORE, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ALL THE FOLKS THERE NOT TO SAY WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.
I THINK THAT IT'S INCUMBENT ON ALL OF US WHO HAVE BEEN THERE TO CONTINUE TO LOOK AT THESE KIND OF THINGS, TO READ THE TESTIMONY, TO SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED, AND PEOPLEá-- SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE CASE AND FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE THEIR DECISIONS BASED ON THE ACTUAL TESTIMONY.
FOR PEOPLE TO GO IN AND BE LIKE GOING INTO THE MURDER TRIAL OF SOME KIND AND BEING ON THE JURY AND ALREADY KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO, THAT'S JUST INAPPROPRIATE.
TOO MANY PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE HAVE ALREADY SAID WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
OKAY.
JUST TO SAY THAT THE HISTORIAN DORIS COONS GOODWIN SAID, IF THIS ISN'T IMPEACHABLE, WHAT IS?
OBVIOUSLY HE WAS IMPEACHED, THIS IS THE SECOND PART OF THAT.
I WANT TO ASK YOU.
IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL TRIAL AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I DO.
RIGHT.
WE HAVE SEENá-- YOU TALKED ABOUT A VOTE OF CONSCIENCE.
AS I SAID IN MY INTRODUCTION TO YOU, ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING AGAINST A BACKDROP OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL A WAR WITHIN, OR CIVIL WAR WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
RIGHT.
THE TRUMPISTS AND THE MORE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS WHO FEEL THAT THEY NEED TO SAVE THEIR PARTY SOMEHOW.
SO, LIZ CHENEY REPRESENTS THAT WING OF THE PARTY, WHICH I'M SAYING, AND THE OTHER WOMAN WHO BELIEVES IN QAnon REPRESENTS THE OTHER WING OF THE PARTY.
YOU KNOW, LIZ CHENEY DID SOMETHING VERY BRAVE.
SHE VOTED HER CONSCIENCE, AND SHE NEVER BACKED DOWN AND SHE ANNOUNCED WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO VOTE, AND SHE WAS VINDICATED IN THE HOUSE.
SHE KEPT HER LEADERSHIP POSITION.
RIGHT.
SO I WANT TO ASK YOU FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHAT IS GOING THROUGH THE HEADS OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE AFRAID TO, YOU KNOW, TO DO WHAT LIZ CHENEY DID?
YOU YOURSELF DIDN'T RUN FOR REELECTION BECAUSE YOU WERE SUCH A CRITIC OF TRUMP.
WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND?
SO, AND FOR THE AUDIENCE, THE HOUSE IS ABOUT PROSECUTING.
THEY'RE NOT ABOUT MAKING THE JUDGMENT.
SO SOMEONE LIKE LIZ CHENEY CAN DECIDE IN ADVANCE SHE THINKS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE PROSECUTED, AND THAT'S WHAT SHE DID.
BY THE WHAT I, I DIDN'T RUN FOR REELECTION BECAUSE OF TRUMP AND I HAVING ISSUES.
I HAD ALREADY ANNOUNCED I WASN'T RUNNING FOR REELECTIONá--
ALL RIGHT.
YOU GET MY POINT.
YES, I DO.
BUT BACK TO, BACK TO THIS, YES, WE ARE HAVING A DEBATE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THANKFULLY, FINALLY WE'RE HAVING A DEBATE.
IS IT GOING TO BE A PERSONALITY-BASED PARTY AROUND ONE PERSON?
AND MY GUESS IS IN THE 2024 ELECTION AS WE MOVE TOWARDS THAT, IT'S GOING TO BE THE STANDARD BEARERS WHO DECIDE WHAT THE DIRECTION OF THE PARTY IS GOING TO BE.
AND MY GUESS IS THERE'S GOING TO BE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE OVER IN THE LANE TOWARDS THE PRESIDENT.
I'M THE MOST LIKE HIM.
I'M THE ONE HE LIKES THE MOST.
AND THEN THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER LANE OF PEOPLE MORE LIKE LIZ CHENEY, MORE LIKE OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS WHO CARE ABOUT OUR ROLE IN THE WORLD, WHO CARE ABOUT FISCAL ISSUES, WHO CARE ABOUT THE KIND OF THINGS WE CARED ABOUT FOR DECADES.
THE REASON THAT I'M A REPUBLICAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
THAT LANE TO ME IS GOING TO BE A SMALLER LANE TO START WITH, BUT THAT'S THE LANE THAT I HOPE AT THE END OF THE DAY IS THE ONE THAT SURVIVES WHERE, AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POLICY.
YOU KNOW, I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS WHERE IT'S ALL AROUND AN INDIVIDUAL, WHOSE POLICIES, BY THE WAY, IN MANY CASES WERE GOOD.
BUT IN MANY CASES WERE FAR OUTSIDE THE NORMS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
NO CARE WHATSOEVER ABOUT FISCAL ISSUES, NONE, NO CARE WHATSOEVER ABOUT AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD AND THE IMPORTANT ALLIANCES THAT HAVE KEPT US SAFE AND KEPT THE REST OF THE WORLD SAFE.
SO, SO, I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT DEBATE.
I WANT TO BE A PART OF THAT DEBATE.
AND MY SENSE IS THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE WINNING SIDE OF THAT DEBATE IS GOING TO MOVE US BACK TO THOSE POLICY ISSUES THAT HAVE KEPT OUR NATION STRONG AND HAVE MOVED US AHEAD.
OKAY, THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU DO YOU THINK THE EXTREMISTS WILL WIN OR THE MORE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS.
I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING THAT YOU THINK THE TRIED AND TRUE VIEWS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS GOING TO WIN OUT.
WHEN YOU SAY I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO BE PART OF THAT DEBATE, WHAT IS YOUR NEXT POLITICAL MOVE?
ARE YOU GOING TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR?
ARE YOU GOING TO BE A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE?
NO.
MIGHT YOU RUN FOR SENATE AGAIN?
SO, I HAVE 12 YEARS IN THE SENATE, WHICH WAS THE GREATEST PRIVILEGE OF MY LIFE, FOR A BUSINESS PERSON 12 YEARS OF LEGISLATING IS PLENTY.
I DO NOT HAVE ANY DESIRE WHATSOEVER TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR.
I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT EARLIER IN MY LIFE.
I DO CARE ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY.
AND I'VE NEVER VIEWED MYSELF AS HAVING TO BE THAT PERSON AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET.
I AND OTHERS, I KNOW, WEREN'T TO BE WANT TO BE PART OF THE DEBATE ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF OUR COUNTRY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS EXACTLY, BUT I'VE BEGUN ON THAT COURSE OVER THE LAST 30 DAYS SINCE MY SELF-IMPOSED SABBATICAL ENDED.
I THINK THERE IS A PLACE IN THIS WORLD, A PLACE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR PRAGMATISM, FOR REALISM, FOR, YOU KNOW, DEALING WITH THOSE ISSUES THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER.
AND I HOPE THAT THAT'S THE SIDE THAT IS GOING TO END UP BEING SUCCESSFUL BETWEEN NOW AND 2024.
THERE WILL BE AN ELECTION IN 2022.
I REALIZE THAT PROBABLY SOME OF THE HANGOVER FROM WHAT WE'RE SEEING WILL STILL BE IN PLACE, BUT I'M HOPING BY THE TIME WE GET TO THE REAL RACE WITH THE STANDARD BEARER, ALL THE PERSONALITY-BASED POLITICS GOES BY THE WAYSIDE.
WE'VE NEVER BEEN LIKE THIS.
YOU COULD DISAGREE WITH RONALD REAGAN OR YOU COULD DISAGREE WITH BUSH 41 OR BUSH 43, AND YOU'RE JUST DISAGREEING OVER POLICY.
THE WAY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN IS, DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE POLICY IS.
ARE YOU WITH THE PRESIDENT.
AND WE'VE GOT TO MOVE BEYOND THAT.
WE ARE MOVING BEYOND THAT, AND I'M THANKFUL THAT THAT IS THE CASE.
AGAIN, YOU'RE VERY CONVINCED YOU'RE MOVING BEYOND THAT.
JUST TO READ YOU WHAT ADMITTEDLY NOT A SENATOR, BUT A CURRENT CONGRESSMAN, ADAM KINZINGER, REPUBLICAN HAS SAID, CONVICTING TRUMP IS NECESSARY TO DO THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND TO SAVE AMERICA.
THIS ISN'T A WASTE OF TIME, THIS PROCESS.
IT'S A MATTER OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
IF THE GOP DOESN'T TAKE A STAND, THE CHAOS OF THE PAST FEW MONTHS AND THE PAST FOUR YEARS COULD QUICKLY RETURN.
THE FUTURE OF OUR PARTY AND OUR COUNTRY DEPENDS ON CONFRONTING WHAT HAPPENED.'
DO YOU AGREE THERE HAS TO BE MORE THAN WORDS ABOUT TRYING TO GET BACK TO SENSIBLE REPUBLICANISM, BUT ACTUALLY CONFRONTING WHAT HAPPENED?
WELL, LOOK, I THINK IT IS BEING CONFRONTED, I DO.
AND I THINK YOU'RE SEEING PEOPLE, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE STEPPING OUT, YOU KNOW.
I FEEL LIKE I PLAYED A PART IN THAT WHILE I WAS IN THE SENATE.
THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DID THE SAME.
MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE NOW DOING THAT.
AND I THINK AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THOSE WHO SO FERVENTLY FOLLOWED THIS PERSONALITY, WHEN IT SINKS IN WHAT HAS HAPPENED, WHEN IT SINKS IN THAT ANY PERSON WHO HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER OF JUST CIVICS IN THE UNITED STATES, WHEN THEY REALIZE THAT WE HADá-- REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THE ELECTION AND THE VOTING AND THE MAIL-IN VOTES AND ALL OF THOSE KIND OF THINGS, WHICH PEOPLE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT, AND I THINK WE SHOULD DO A MUCH BETTER JOB IN OUR OWN COUNTRY ABOUT HOW WE PROCESS ELECTIONS SO WE GET RESULTS IN A MUCH QUICKER, CRISP WAY.
THAT KEEPS ANY OF THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AWAY.
BUT PUTTING THAT ASIDE, THE FACT THAT YOU HAD A PRESIDENT INDICATING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR WEEKS AND MONTHS THAT THE ELECTION CAN BE OVERTURNED BY CONGRESSMEN, THAT MIKE PENCE COULD OVERTURN IT HIMSELF, SUCH AN UNBELIEVABLE UNTRUTH, AND THAT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THATá-- I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES A DEMOCRACY FUNCTION AND THE REASON WE SEE IT FAIL IN SO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES IS SO MANY OF THE CITIZENS ARE NOT ATTUNED TO HOW THE DEMOCRACY ACTUALLY WORKS AND WHAT IS REAL.
YOU KNOW, IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GET PROPER INFORMATION, TO KNOW WHAT IS REAL.
AND OUR COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, WE'VE GOT A LOTá-- WE'VE GOT A LOT TO DO TO STRENGTHEN OURSELVES.
THIS HAS BEEN A FRAGILE TIME FOR US.
WE'RE HARD WORKING AMERICANS HAVE SOMEHOW OR ANOTHER BEEN CAUGHT UP IN THIS MYTH, THIS UNTRUTH.
AND SO WE'VE GOT A LOT TO DO TO MAKE SURE THATá--
YOU DO, YOU DO, SENATOR.
FOR THE NEXT HUNDREDS OF YEARS, WE CONDUCT OURSELVES IN A MANNER THAT ALLOWS THIS DEMOCRACY TO CONTINUE TO FLOURISH, AND OUR COUNTRY TO CONTINUE TO BE WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT IT TO BE.
YES, AND SO MUCH IS AT STAKE RIGHT NOW.
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
SENATOR BOB CORKER, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
> NOW, THE LAST AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO BE IMPEACHED AND ACQUITTED BY THE SENATE WAS BILL CLINTON.
IN THE FICTIONAL WORLD, THE GREAT DIRECTOR THE LATE MIKE NICHOLS PORTRAYED CHARACTERS BASED ON BILL AND HILLARY CLINTON IN THE FILM PRIMARY COLORS STARRING JOHN TRAVOLTA.
HERE'S A CLIP.
HENRY BURTON, THIS IS MY WIFE SUSAN.
25 YEARS AGO, YOU WERE RUNNING UNDER THE SPRINKLER IN WET UNDERPANTS.
YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS A GREAT MAN.
THANK YOU.
JACK STANTON COULD ALSO BE A GREAT MAN IF HE WEREN'T SUCH A FAITHLESS THOUGHTLESS, DISORGANIZED [áBLEEPá]á--
HONEY, WHY ARE YOU MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL?
BECAUSE IT IS BIG.
MUCH OF MIKE NICHOLS FILM AND HIS WORKS HAVE BEEN ERIE DEFINING CULTURAL LANDMARKS.
WHO IS AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOLF.
AND TELEVISION LIKE ANGELS IN AMERICA.
BUT SUCCESS WASN'T ALWAYS ASSURED FOR THE YOUNG BOY WHO FLED THE NAZIS TO THE UNITED STATES.
A NEW BOOK, MIKE NICHOLS ALIVE, CHRONICLES HIS INCREDIBLE JOURNEY.
IT IS GETTING RAVE REVIEWS AND THE AUTHOR MIKE HARRIS IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.
MARK HARRIS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
TELL ME, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO GO SO DEEPLY INTO MIKE NICHOLS?
YOU KNOW, JUST READING THE INTRODUCTION YOU CAN SEE WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE LIFE AND CAREER HE HAD.
WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, TRACE HIS JOURNEY?
WELL, HE REALLY WAS ONE OF A KIND.
I MEAN, IF HE HAD NEVER WORKED A DAY IN HIS LIFE AFTER 1963, WE WOULD STILL BE TALKING ABOUT HIM 60 YEARS LATER AS A COMEDY PIONEER.
BUT INSTEAD, THAT WAS JUST SORT OF THE APPETIZER ACTS TO THE MAIN COURSE OF HIS CAREER, WHICH WAS SIMULTANEOUS 50-YEAR MOVIE DIRECTOR CAREER AND 50 YEARS DIRECTING THEATER.
WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT?
SINCE YOU BROUGHT UP THE COMEDY, I ACTUALLY WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP THAT WE HAVE, BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT SORT OF LAUNCHED HIM IN THE PUBLIC ARENA.
MIKE NICHOLS, ELAINE MAY.
HERE'S A CLIP OF ONE OF THEIR PERFORMANCES AND IT'S ABOUT A GUY WHO BREAKS DOWN AND HE'S CALLING ABOUT A BROKEN DOWN CAR.
MY CAR IS STUCK.
YOU SEE, STUCK OUT HERE.
I'M ALREADY HALF AN HOUR LATE FOR A VERY IMPORTANT BUSINESS APPOINTMENT.
THE INFORMATION, EXACTLY WHAT IS IT YOU WANT US TO DO?
I MEAN, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
WELL, MISS, YOU HAVE MY DIMEá--
NO, WE DO NOT HAVE YOUR DIME.
IF YOU WANT YOUR DIME YOU HAVE TO HANG UP.
THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS.
LOOK, THE DIME ISá-- I KNOW THAT SOUND.
I'VE HEARD IT ALL MY LIFE.
THE DIME IS IN THERE WITH ALL THOSEá-- YES.
INFORMATION CANNOT ARGUE WITH A CLOSED MIND.
I LOVE THAT LINE, INFORMATION CANNOT ARGUE WITH A CLOSED MIND IS FANTASTIC.
AND YOU SPENT SOME TIME OBVIOUSLY ON THAT PART OF HIS CAREER AND THEY WENT TO BROADWAY WITH A MAJOR BIG DEAL.
AND YOU DESCRIBE HIS WIT ASá-- IN FACT, YOU SAY MIKE NICHOLS WAS KIND OF A SCARY FELLOW TO A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE HE DID HAVE A DEVASTATING WIT.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT PART OF HIS LIFE AND CAREER.
I THINK THE DEVASTATING WIT WAS DEVELOPED EARLY ON.
I MEAN, HE HAD A VERY HARD START.
HE WAS AN IMMIGRANT WHO GOT OUT OF BERLIN WITH HIS LITTLE BROTHER AT THE AGE OF 7 JUST IN TIME BEFORE WORLD WAR II.
HE HAD A BAD REACTION TO A VACCINE AND LOST HIS HAIR AND ABILITY TO GROW HAIR FROM THE TIME HE WAS 4 YEARS OLD.
SO HE REALLY GREW UP AS AN OUTSIDER IN TOUGH CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE A REALLY LACERATING CUTTING HUMOR ABLE TO CUT SOMEONE WITH ONE REMARK WAS SURVIVAL.
WHEN HE GOT TO A POINT OF HIS CAREER WHERE HE NO LONGER NEEDED THAT, IT WOULD FLASH OUT OF HIM UNEXPECTEDLY.
IT WASN'T SOMETHING HE WAS PARTICULARLY PROUD OF.
AS HE BECAME A DIRECTOR AND BECAME MORE AND MORE SUCCESSFUL, IT WAS AN ASPECT OF HIS PERSONALITY THAT HE WORKED TO TEMPER AND CONTROL.
LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT HIM BEING AN OUTSIDER FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, AND THE BALDNESS PROBABLY WAS A DEFININGá-- AT LEAST I THINK HIS BROTHER SAYS WAS A DEFINING PART OF HIS MOTIVATION AND HIS HUNGER TO PROVE HIMSELF.
ONE OF HIS CLASSMATES WHEN HE WAS A KID IN NEW YORK SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, HE WAS AS FAR OUTSIDE AS AN OUTSIDER CAN GET.
IT TURNS OUT THIS CLASSMATE WAS BUCK HENRY WHO WAS AT DALTON SCHOOL IN NEW YORK WITH NICHOLS, WHO LATER WROTE 'THE GRADUATE.'
I MEAN THAT'S PRETTY AMAZING.
LET'S TALK ABOUT 'THE GRADUATE.'
THE FILMS ARE SO COMPLETELY ICONIC, I THINK ANYWAY, REALLY RAISED STRONG FEMININE ROLES AND CHARACTERS.
I'M SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DISTINGUISHES MIKE'S WORK FROM OTHER DIRECTORS OF HIS ERA AND HIS AGE WAS THAT FROM VERY EARLY ON HE WAS GENUINELY INTERESTED IN WOMEN.
AND NOT JUST A SORT OF OBJECTS TO PUT ON SCREEN, BUT AS COLLEAGUES, AS COLLABORATORS.
THAT OBVIOUSLY STEMS FROM THE FORMATIVE WORK HE DID IN HIS 20s WITH ELAINE MAY, BUT IT PERSISTS ALL THE WAY THROUGH.
I MEAN, HIS FIRST TWO MOVIES STARRED ELIZABETH TAYLOR AND ANN BANCROFT, EACH IN REALLY DEFINING ROLES.
AND THEN FOR DECADES ONWARD, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COLLABORATIONS THAT REALLY MEANT SOMETHING TO HIM, THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE NOR NORA EPHRON, MERYL STREEP.
COSTUME DESIGNERS.
HE WAS REALLY, REALLY INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH WOMEN, NOT THREATENED BY THEM AT ALL.
OBVIOUSLY HE DID GREAT WITH MEN, TOO.
BUT HIS COMFORT WITH WOMEN AS EQUAL SHAREHOLDERS IN THE ULTIMATE SUCCESS OF A MOVIE OR PLAY WAS REALLY SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT HIM.
AND, OF COURSE, HE WAS MARRIED SEVERAL TIMES, BUT HIS LAST WIFE WHO SURVIVED HIM, DIANE SAWYER WAS A VERY PROMINENTá-- IS A VERY PROMINENT JOURNALIST AT ABC.
YOU KNOW, IT ALSO I GUESS SHOWS HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH STRONG, INDEPENDENT, SUCCESSFUL WOMEN.
BUT I WANT TO GO TO NORA EPHRON.
HE WROTE HEARTBURN, A REVENGE BOOK AGAINST HER PHILANDERING HUSBAND.
JACK NICHOLSON PLAYED THE HUSBAND, CARL BERNSTEIN OF WOODWARD AND BERNSTEIN.
HERE IS A PHENOMENAL CLIP.
YES.
THE DREAM BREAKS INTO A MAN, TINY LITTLE PIECES, WHICH LEAVES YOU WITH A CHOICE.
YOU CAN EITHER STICK WITH IT WHICH IS UNBEARABLE, OR YOU CAN GO OFF AND DREAM ANOTHER DREAM.
AH!
THE CAR KEYS.
IT MAKES ME LAUGH EVERY TIME I SEE THAT CLIP.
YOU TALKED ABOUT HIS ICONIC WOMEN'S ROLES.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, HAVINGá-- YOU WENT DEEP INTO THE PRODUCTION OF MANY OF THESE FILMS.
YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT A LOT IN THE BOOK.
WHAT'S THE SECRET SAUCE?
WHAT WAS IT ABOUT HIM ON SET THAT WAS SO MAGICAL?
WELL, ONE THING WAS THAT HE REALLY HAD THIS ALMOST SUPER NATURAL ABILITY TO CONNECT WITH ACTORS, TO LOOK AT AN INDIVIDUAL ACTOR AND TO ASSESS WHAT HER STRENGTHS WERE, WHAT HER VULNERABILITIES WERE, WHETHER SHE NEEDED TOUGH LOVE OR A VERY GENTLE HAND.
WHETHER SHE NEEDED TO BE DRAWN OUT WITH THINGS FROM HER OWN LIFE THAT MIGHT INFORM HER PERFORMANCE, OR ENCOURAGED WITH STORIES FROM MIKE'S LIFE, WHICH HE OFTEN DEPLOYED AS A KIND OF DIRECTORIAL STRATEGY.
HE WOULD BRING UP SOMETHING AND SAY, YOU KNOW, ONCE I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL AND THIS HAPPENED.
AND HE WOULD NEVER SAY, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO IN THE MOVIE, BUT HE WOULD LET THE ACTOR FIND THEIR WAY TO IT THEMSELVES JUST FROM THE STORIES.
IT WAS REALLY A GIFT THAT NOT THAT MANY DIRECTORS HAD.
YOU WOULD THINK THAT ALL DIRECTORS WOULD REALLY BE INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH ACTORS, BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL THAT WAY ON THE LEVEL THAT MIKE NICHOLS WAS.
SO, YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT WHEN HE DID ANGELS IN AMERICA FOR HBO, AFTER MANY COME BUSINESS AND ALWAYS BRINGING THE FUNNY SIDE INTO EVEN HIS DRAMAS, THAT HE WAS, I GUESS, TRYING TO PROVE HIS SERIOUS SIDE.
AND, OF COURSE, 'ANGELS IN AMERICA' WAS SUCH A MASSIVE, MASSIVE HIT ON STAGE AND OBVIOUSLY WHEN IT GOT TO TELEVISION.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP, AND LET ME TELL YOU WHAT THIS CLIP IS.
THIS IS BELIZE, AN OPENLY GAY MAN WHO WORKS AS AN AIDS NURSE SPEAKING TO LEWIS, WHO ABANDONS A LOVER WITH AIDS.
AMERICA IS WHAT LEWIS LOVED.
SO WHAT.
MAYBE I DO.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I LOVE.
YOU DON'T.
AMERICA, LEWIS.
I HATE THIS COUNTRY.
NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF BIG IDEAS AND STORIES AND PEOPLE DYING AND THEN PEOPLE LIKE YOU, THE WHITE TRACKER WITH THE NATIONAL KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.
A NOTE SO HIGH NOBODY COULD REACH IT.
THAT WAS ILLITERATE.
NOTHING SOUNDS LIKE FREEDOM TO ME.
YOU COME TO 13th STREET, I'LL SHOW YOU AMERICA.
TERMINAL, CRAZY AND MEAN.
I LIVED IN AMERICA, LEWIS.
I DON'T HAVE TO LOVE IT.
SO, FIRST OF ALL, MARK, YOU COULD ALMOST HAVE THAT SPEECH TODAY IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE PREJUDICE AND THE BIGOTRY AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING.
BUT SECONDLY, OF COURSE, 'ANGELS IN AMERICA' WAS WRITTEN BY YOUR HUSBAND, TONY KUSHNER.
YOU HAD A RINGSIDE, FRONT SEAT TO THE WORK OF TONY KUSHNER AND THEN TO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU CAME TO LOOK AT IT, MIKE NICHOLS' ADAPTATION OF IT.
TELL ME ABOUT ALL OF THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU ABSORBED AND THEN WROTE ABOUT.
WELL, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I GOT TO KNOW MIKE, AND CERTAINLY THE FIRST TIME I SAW HIM WORK.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT INTERESTED ME ABOUT HIS WORK ON 'ANGELS IN AMERICA' OTHER THAN THE FACT IT WAS THIS MARATHON ENDURANCE CONTEST OF A PRODUCTION, IT'S SIX HOURS LONG.
YOU KNOW, MIKE WAS 70 WHEN HE DIRECTED IT.
WAS HOW MUCH HE WAS WILLING TO GO OUTSIDE OF HIS OWN COMFORT ZONE.
I MEAN, THERE ARE THINGS IN 'ANGELS' THAT ARE TO MIKE'S STRENGTHS.
IT'S FUNNY.
IT PROVIDES GREAT MEATY OPPORTUNITIES FOR ACTORS.
BUT IT'S ALSO FULL OF POLITICS AND GAY STUFF AND WEIRD KIND OF SUPER NATURAL, WHAT TONY CALLS OOKY-SPOOKY STUFF.
NONE OF THAT WAS STUFF MIKE HAD REALLY DONE BEFORE.
HE JUST LEAPT AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE IT A TRY.
AND IT WAS A MASSIVE SUCCESS OBVIOUSLY, CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED.
BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
FOR ALL HIS SUCCESSES AND, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, THE EERIE DEFINING WORK THAT HE CREATED, HE ALSO DID HAVE FLOPS, AND HE, YOU KNOW, HE ALSO HAD DEPRESSION.
HE HAD SUBSTANCE ABUSE.
AT ONE POINT YOU WRITE IN YOUR BOOK, SELF-LOATHING HAD NEVER BEEN FAR BENEATH HIS PAINSTAKINGLY COMPOSED SURFACE.
YOU SPENT FOUR YEARS AND INTERVIEWED SOME 250 PEOPLE TO GET TO KNOW MIKE NICHOLS IN THIS BOOK.
DID YOU GET TO UNDERSTAND HIM AND WHAT LAY BENEATH THAT SURFACE?
I REALLY HOPE THAT I DID, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, I DID SPEND FOUR YEARS.
AND I THINK IT TOOK FOUR YEARS AND 250 INTERVIEWS FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT, BECAUSE THAT LINE THAT I WROTE ABOUT SELF-LOATHING WAS CERTAINLY NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD HAVE SAID OR FELT BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH MIKE, WHICH CAME AT A VERY HAPPY CONTENT, SETTLED PERIOD IN HIS LIFE.
I THINK PROBABLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST, IF NOT THE BIGGEST SURPRISES FOR ME IN THE RESEARCH I DID, WAS HOW MUCH OF A STRUGGLE FOR HOW MANY DECADES THAT HAD BEEN.
I REALLY DID NOT KNOW UNTIL I STARTED WORK ON THE BOOK ABOUT WHAT A LARGE PART DEPRESSION AND SADNESS AND PAIN HAD PLAYED IN HIS LIFE.
AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, MAYBE A LOT OF COMEDIANS, I GUESSá-- YES, A LOT OF COMEDIANS HAVE THAT IN THEIR LIFE.
BUT TELL ME ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE LIKE ELIZABETH TAYLOR AND RICHARD BURTON.
I THINK, DIDN'T YOU SAY WHO IS AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOLF WAS HIS FIRST BIG MOVIE AND WITH TUOMAS I HAVE STARS LIKE ELIZABETH TAYLOR AND RICHARD BARR TON?
IT WAS HIS FIRST MOVIE, PERIOD.
IT WAS THE DEFINITION OF JUMPING INTO THE DEEP END OF THE POOL.
WHAT'S FUNNY IS I THINK WHEN HE TOOK THE JOB, HE THOUGHT, WELL, THIS IS A GOOD FIRST STEP INTO MOVIE MAKING FOR ME.
IT'S AN ADAPTATION OF A PLAY.
IT TAKES PLACE IN ONE HOUSE.
IT HAS FOUR CHARACTERS.
BUT WHAT HE ENDED UP WITH WAS THE TWO BIGGEST AND MOST CONTROVERSIAL STARS IN THE WORLD IN A PLAY THAT WAS SO KIND OF RAW AND EXPLICIT THAT THE MOVIE VERSION OF IT PRETTY MUCH ENDED THE CENSORSHIP CODE IN THE UNITED STATES.
IT IS AN AMAZING MOVIE.
OF COURSE, WE WERE SEEING SOME CLIPS THERE AND, OF COURSE, A CLIP FROM 'THE GRADUATE.'
HE'S AN AMAZING MAN, GREAT BOOK.
MARK HARRIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
> AND WE TURN NOW TO THE HISTORIC IMPEACHMENT TRIAL UNFOLDING IN WASHINGTON.
CONVENTIONAL WISDOM PREDICTS DONALD TRUMP WON'T BE CONVICTED.
NOT SO FAST, THOUGH, SAYS HEATHER COX RICHARDSON.
SHE'S A HISTORIAN AND PROFESSOR AT BOSTON COLLEGE AND HER THOUGHTFUL DAILY DIGEST CALLED 'LETTERS FROM AN AMERICAN' HAS BECOME A MUST-READ ANALYSIS OF MODERN POLITICS.
HERE SHE IS TALKING TO WALTER ISACKSON ABOUT HER BOLD CALCULATION THAT HER MATH COULD, COULD HELP DEMOCRATS WIN A CONVICTION.
THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
AND HEATHER COX RICHARDSON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.
WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF AN IMPEACHMENT BATTLE.
PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT COULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONVICT TRUMP.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S POSSIBLE, THAT THE DOOR IS STILL OPEN TO THAT?
RIGHT NOW WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE EXTRAORDINARY CONFUSION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN A MOMENT WHEN IT'S REALLY CRUMBLING.
AND THE REASON I'LL BE WATCHING THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL WITH SUCH INTEREST IS BECAUSE I'M WATCHING THE SENATORS JOCKEY FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY GOING FORWARD, AND HOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO THAT IS NOT AT ALL IMMEDIATELY APPARENT.
TO ME ANYWAY.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?
BECAUSE I THINK THE GAME IS CHANGING.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN THE MOMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY STRUGGLING FOR CONTROL BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT FACTIONS.
IT IS NOT AT ALL CLEAR TO ME LOOKING AT THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE SENATE THAT IT WILL NOT BENEFIT SOME OF THEM TO VOTE AGAINST HIM.
NOW, THE OTHER PIECE THAT IS HERE THAT WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED IS THAT, ACCORDING TO THE WAY THE CONSTITUTION IS WRITTEN, TWO-THIRDS OF THE MEMBERS PRESENT AT THE SENATE NEED TO VOTE TO CONVICT.
NOT TWO-THIRDS OF THE MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, WHICH WOULD BE 100 PEOPLE.
IF 100 PEOPLE SHOW UP, THEY NEED 17 VOTES TO CONVICT HIM.
BUT IF 100 PEOPLE DON'T SHOW UP, THAT NUMBER GETS SMALLER AND SMALLER.
AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, WHO KNOWS.
MAYBE ALL THE SENATORS WILL SHOW UP, BUT MAYBE SOME OF THEM WILL DECIDE TO STAY HOME IN ORDER TO MAKE IT EASIER TO CONVICT HIM BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE A STAND FOR OR AGAINST DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE THEY WANT BOTH THE VOTERS WHO SUPPORT HIM AND THE VOTERS WHO DON'T, BUT THEY ALSO, EVEN PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TRUMP VOTERS, DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO KEEP DONALD TRUMP AS A VIABLE POLITICAL CONCERN GOING FORWARD BECAUSE HE'S GOT HIS OWN FAVORITES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THEM.
SO IF YOU WANT TO RUN AS A REPUBLICAN IN 2024, AS SOME OF THE YOUNGER LEADERS CLEARLY DO, YOU KIND OF WANT TO FIND A WAY TO SQUARE THIS CIRCLE AND NOT TO TAKE A STAND.
IF I WERE A REPUBLICAN SENATOR RIGHT NOW, I WOULD BE LITERALLY SITTING THERE WITH A SHEET OF PAPER CALCULATING HOW I CAN BEST RETAIN MONEY AND VOTES GOING FORWARD, AND SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP, IN FACT, MAY NOT BE THE WAY FOR ALL OF THEM TO DO THAT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO THE OFFICIALS WHO WERE EITHER COMPLICIT IN THE LIE ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD OR IN THE STORMING OF THE CAPITOL?
BOTH AS A MATTER OF POLITICS AND LONG-TERM HISTORY, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM?
ONE OF THE PIECES THAT HAD BEEN PLAYED HERE, THAT PEOPLE TEND TO NOT LOOK AT WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THINGS, IS THE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND THE LEAD UP TO IT.
AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT IN THE NEXT MONTHS OR YEARS ABOUT WHO WAS INVOLVED, HOW THEY SUPPORTED THE STORMING OF THE CAPITOL OR DIDN'T.
SO IT'S NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR TO ME WHATá-- FIRST OF ALL, WHAT WE WILL LEARN.
SECOND OF ALL, WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WILL DO ABOUT THAT.
REMEMBER MERIT GARLAND WHO IS JOE BIDEN'S NOMINEE FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE.
SO HE ISá-- BIDEN AND HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL ARE REALLY NOT ASSOCIATED IN ANY POLITICAL WAY WITH THE CURRENT INVESTIGATION OF THE JANUARY 6 ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL.
SO THERE IS THIS RESTORATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AS A NEUTRAL ENFORCER OF THE LAW.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE D.O.J. FLOATED A WEEK OR SO AGO WAS THE IDEA THAT THEY MIGHT BRING RICO CHARGES AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE CAPITOL ASSAULT.
RICO CHARGES ARE, IF YOU WILL, A WAY TO GET IN THE PEOPLE'S EARS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO COMMITTED THE CRIME.
PEOPLE WERE CAREFUL ABOUT THE WAY THEY SPOKE, WHEN THEY SPOKE AND WHERE THEY WERE FILMED.
PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE ROGER STONEá-- AND I'M NOT ACCUSING ANYBODY HERE.
HE IS A PERSON WHO APPEARS TO BE ADJACENT TO THIS, TO THIS EVENT.
PEOPLE WHO ALSO APPEAR TO BE ADJACENT LIKE JOSH HAWLEY, FOR EXAMPLE.
ALL OF A SUDDEN SEEM POSSIBLY TO HAVE MORE LEGAL EXPOSURE THAN THEY WOULD HAVE IF THEY DON'Tá-- IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE USES RICO.
THE REASON I MENTION THAT IS BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A BIG SAY ABOUT WHO GETS POLITICALLY KILLED BY THIS EVENT AND WHO ACTUALLY MANAGES TO EMERGE UNSCATHED FROM IT.
SO IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO TELL GOING FORWARD BECAUSE WE ARE DEPENDENT ON WHAT HAPPENS IN THE FUTURE.
SO THE DEMOCRATS ARE VERY CLEARLY, I THINK, NOT AIMING TO CONVINCE THEIR REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL COLLEAGUES IN THE UPCOMING TRIAL, BUT RATHER TO CONVINCE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS UNCONSCIONABLE.
ON THAT, AS YOU KNOW FROM THE RECENT POLLS, THEY'VE ALREADY GOT A LEG UP WITH 56% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAYING THEY THINK THAT TRUMP DID INSTIGATE THE RIOT AND SHOULD BE CONVICTED IN THE SENATE TRIAL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE TWO FACTIONS, THREE FACTIONS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE?
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY A LOT OF PEOPLE REMEMBER FROM THEIR CHILDHOOD, THE NELSON ROCKEFELLERS, THE DWIGHT EISENHOWERS EVEN, ARE NO LONGER PART OF THE LAW MAKING WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THEY ARE VERY MUCH A PART OF THE VOTING BLOCK, I THINK, BUT NOT THE LAWMAKERS WHO GOT TAKEN OVER AFTER THE REAGAN YEARS, ESPECIALLY IN THE 1990s BY A FACTION THAT AT THE TIME CALLED ITSELF THE MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES.
AND THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO REJECTED THE PREMISES OF THE NEW DEAL, THE IDEA THE GOVERNMENT HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN REGULATING THE ECONOMY AND PROVIDING BASIC SOCIAL SAFETY NET AND INFRASTRUCTURE.
THOSE PEOPLE GOT PURGED AFTER NEWT GINGRICH TOOK OVER THE SPEAKER SHIP.
WHAT WE HAVE ARE ALREADY A SUBSET OF REPUBLICANS.
WITHIN THAT NOW, WE HAVE THOSE ORIGINAL MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES THAT ARE BEING CHALLENGED FROM THE RIGHT BY THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES, THE EVANGELICALS, THE NOW CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, THE RACIALLY MOTIVATED VOTERS WHO ARE SORT OF LUMPED UNDER THE IDEA OF POPULISTS WHO ARE TRYING TO WRENCH CONTROL OF THE MORE BUSINESS-ORIENTED WING OF THE PARTY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW TRUMP SUPPORTERS WHO BELIEVE IN THEá-- IN THEIR MAN IN SORT OF A CULTIC PERSONALITY.
RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE THE TRUMP WING, WHICH IS AN UMBRELLA FOR ALL THOSE OTHER GROUPS I JUST MENTIONED, AND THE MORE BUSINESS-ORIENTED, MORE TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES.
BOTH OF WHOM WANT TO GET RID OF THE ACTIVIST GOVERNMENT THAT WE'VE HAD REALLY SINCE 1933.
BUT THEY ARE DOING SO WITH THIS INCREDIBLE FIGHT RIGHT NOW FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY APPARATUS AND FOR THE NOMINATION IN 2024.
AND THE PROBLEM IS BOTH SIDES NEED VOTERS AND BOTH SIDES NEED MONEY.
SO CONTROLLING THAT PARTY IS KEY.
THE REASON THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS IS SO IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW, THE TRIAL PROCESS IS SO IMPORTANT IS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ON TRUMP'S SIDE OR AGAINST HIM.
DO YOU THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE ROOM IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR A SENATOR MITT ROMNEY, OR FOR THAT MATTER, EVEN LIZ CHENEY?
I DO, I DO.
NOT NECESSARILY IN THE SHORT TERM, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE LONG SWEEP OF REPUBLICAN HISTORY, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE COME TO A PLACE WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS SLID TOWARD A FORM OF AUTHORITARIANISM OR OLIGARCHY.
IT'S DONE IT BEFORE.
IN BOTH CASES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SWUNG AWAY FROM THAT.
AND WITH THAT YOU'VE GOT THE SWING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AWAY FROM THAT.
SO PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET THAT ALTHOUGH WE LIONIZE THEODORE ROOSEVELT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY, HE SWUNG AWAY FROM THE OLIGARCHY.
HE HAD A HARD TIME DOING IT.
HE WENT AROUND THE PARTY.
WHICH IS THE REASON HE DOES SO MUCH BY EXECUTIVE ACTION, AND INSTEAD GOING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
AND I THINK YOU CAN SEE THAT WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, SUPER BOWL ADS.
THEY WERE CONCILIATORY, THEY WERE AN ATTEMPT TO MOVE THE COUNTRY FORWARD TOGETHER.
I THINK THE COUNTRY IS GOING IN THAT DIRECTION, NOT BECAUSE I SUSPECT IT'S WHAT I WANT TO SEE, BUT IT'S HIGH TIME IN TERMS OF THE WAY OUR POLITICAL PENDULUM HAS SWUNG.
AND BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE CRUCIAL MOVEMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE PART OF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES THAT ARE NOW TAKING A STAND AGAINST THE EXTREMISM THAT HAS REALLY PUMPED POLITICS, AT LEAST FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.
YOU SPEAK OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT HAVING HAD TO TAKE ON SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WRENCH IT, MOVE IT IN HIS DIRECTION.
BUT, OF COURSE, HE ENDED UP HAVING TO LEAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
HE ENDED UP HAVING TO START A THIRD-PARTY.
IS THAT A POSSIBILITY?
WELL, SO, OF COURSE, IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO MAKE TOO CLEAR A COMPARISON THERE BECAUSE HE LEADS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IN PART, BECAUSE HE HAD MADE THE COMMITMENT NOT TO RUN FOR A THIRD TERM AFTER HE TOOK OFFICE AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF McKINLEY.
OF COURSE, IF HE COULD HAVEá-- IF HE HADN'T SAID HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE THE PARTY, HE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE STAYED WITH THE PARTY.
BUT THE FACT HE DID NOT MANAGE TO MAKE HIS PROGRESSIVE BULL MOOSE PARTY A CONCERN GOING FORWARD, THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE KEY PIECES TO THE WAY OUR SYSTEM CURRENTLY WORKSá-- THE WAY IT CURRENTLY WORKS IS WE HAVE THESE TWO VERY COMPLICATED AND VERY TOP-HEAVY, IF YOU WILL, POLITICAL SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY HARD TO TURNOUT OF THEIR CHANNEL.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE REPUBLICANSá-- HAVE EMAIL LISTS AND DONORS AND STATE OFFICES AND THE GENERATIONAL LOYALTY TO THAT PARTY.
AND RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE DEMOCRATS AS WELL WHO ARE DOING SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING AT THE STATE LEVEL AS WELL, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS A STRUGGLE FOR CONTROL OVER THOSE MECHANICS.
AND SO TEDDY ROOSEVELT COULDN'T BREAK INTO THOSE MECHANICS DESPITE HIS ENORMOUS GROUND SWELL OF SUPPORT.
I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR SOMEBODY TO TRY AND START A NEW PARTY WITHOUT TAKING THOSE CONTROLS WITH THEM.
AND AGAIN, MY GUESS IS THAT SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP HAS THE ABILITY TO DO THAT.
BE HARDER FOR SOMEBODY LIKE MITT ROMNEY OR LIZ CHENEY, BOTH OF WHOM ARE FROM SMALL WESTERN STATES.
WHY IS IT THAT TRUMP HAD THE ABILITY TO WRENCH THE CONTROL OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?
WELL, IN 2016, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE TEND TO FORGETá-- THAT'S WHY I THINK THIS MOMENT IS SO INTERESTING.
WHAT PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET IS WHEN TRUMP RANá-- HE DIDN'T GOVERN THIS WAY.
WHEN HE RAN, HE WAS THE MOST MODERATE OF THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES.
IF YOU REMEMBER ON THAT STAGE, HE WAS THE ONE WHO TALKED ABOUT FIXING THE ACA.
HE WAS THE ONE WHO TALKED ABOUT TAKING OUT THE TAX LOOPHOLES THAT CORPORATIONS WERE USING TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.
HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT MAKING AMERICAN GOVERNMENT MORE REASONABLE THAN IT HAD BEEN IN THE PAST.
OF COURSE HE DIDN'T GOVERNOR GOVERN THAT WAY.
HE ALWAYS HAD THAT RACISM AND SEXISM FROM THE BEGINNING.
PEOPLE SAID, THERE WAS STUFF IN THERE THAT I REALLY LIKE.
HE WAS ABLE TO SWITCH PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO TRY TO SMASH THE OLD SYSTEM OF POLITICS AND TRY A NEW SYSTEM OF POLITICS.
AND ONE OF THE REASONS I'M FINDING THE EARLY MONTHS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SO INTERESTING IS THAT BIDEN IS DOING A LOT OF WHAT TRUMP PROMISED WITHOUT THE SEXISM AND THE RACISM.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, HE PUT INTO TREASURY JANET YELLEN, OF COURSE, WHO WENT LAST WEEK AND BEGAN TO HIRE PEOPLE TO CLOSE THOSE TAX LOOPHOLES.
IT'S GOING TO BE AS MUCH AS $441 BILLION TO AMERICA TO STOP PEOPLE FROM SKIPPING OUT ON THEIR TAXES AND CORPORATIONS FROM SKIPPING OUT ON THEIR TAXES.
BIDEN WENT AHEAD AND DEMANDED THAT GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS GO A MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE TO AMERICAN BUSINESSES.
DONALD TRUMP HAD PROMISED TO DO THAT.
HE HAD STARTED THE PAPERWORK TO DO THAT, BUT HE NEVER SAW IT THROUGH.
BIDEN DID.
SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF, IN FACT, THE REASON THAT TRUMP PICKED UP SO MANY VOTERS WAS BECAUSE OF THIS PROMISE TO MAKE AMERICA MORE FAIR.
NOW THAT IT'S IN THE HANDS OF A DEMOCRAT DOING IT, IF, IN FACT, THAT POLITICAL MOMENTUM IS GOING TO GET BEHIND THE DEMOCRATS AS PREVIOUSLY BEHIND DONALD TRUMP.
MOST AMERICAN HISTORIANS, AT LEAST EXPLORE THE IDEA THAT OUR HISTORY IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE A PENDULUM.
IT SWINGS A BIT TOO FAR ONE WAY AND IT SWINGS BACK.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?
AND IF SO, WHAT PENDULUM SWING MIGHT WE BE LOOKING AT NEXT?
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M LAUGHING AT THE IDEA MOST AMERICAN HISTORIANS AGREE ON ANYTHING.
BUT YES, WE ARE IN AN EXTREME MOMENT.
WE'RE IN AN EXTREME MOMENT IN TERMS OF THE POLARIZATION OF WEALTH.
AND THAT SHOWS ON ANY CHART SINCE 1981, YOU WILL SEE THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH INCOME AND WEALTH OF THE PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM OF AMERICAN SOCIETY AND PEOPLE AT THE TOP HAVE DIFFICULT VERGED SIGNIFICANTLY.
THERE IS A REASON ECONOMISTS CALL IT THE GREAT DIVERGENCE.
WE ARE AT AN EXTREME FOR THAT AND FOR POLARIZATION.
WE HAVE BEEN IN POLARIZED PERIODS BEFORE.
THE 1850s, 1900s.
THIS IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED.
WHAT IS UNPRECEDENTED, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, ACTUALLY EMBRACED THE EXTREMISM THAT SUGGESTED THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDED TO BE TORN APART.
THAT'S UNPRECEDENTED.
THAT ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6 WAS, WAS NOT SIMPLY ONE FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS IN THE 21st CENTURY, OR THE 20th CENTURY, OR IN DEMOCRACY.
IT IS THE BRIGHT SPOT, THE NUCLEAR EVENT, IF YOU WILL, SO FAR IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
SO THAT SUGGESTS THAT WE HAVE TWO OPTIONS.
EITHER THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD TO AUTHORITARIANISM WHICH WILL LEAD TO A FORM OF MODERN-DAY OLIGARCHY, A BIT DIFFERENT THAN FASCISM, ALTHOUGH THEY CERTAINLY RUN PARALLEL AND I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH MY COLLEAGUES WHO THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT FASCISM.
AMERICA SPURRED WITH FASCISM BEFORE.
WE'RE SEEING IN THE TRUMP WING OF THE PARTY SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.
THAT WON'T MATTER TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IF, IN FACT THAT COMES TO PASS.
THAT'S A POLITICAL THEORIST TALKING THERE.
WE EITHER GO THAT DIRECTION OR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE SIGNED ON FOR.
WE ACTUALLY QUITE LIKE DEMOCRACY.
WE WANT TO SEE A WORKING CONGRESS AGAIN.
WE WANT TO STOP THE OBSTRUCTIONISTS IN THE SENATE.
WE WANT TO GO AHEAD AND HAVE LEGISLATION THAT ACTUALLY HELPS THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.
AND WE HAVE STRENGTHENED THE KNIFE EDGE IN AMERICA, AND I THINK WE STILL DO.
BUT IT IS INTERESTING TO WATCH EVEN IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HOW CERTAIN CHIPS HAVE BEGUN TO FALL AWAY FROM THE TRUMP WING OF THE PARTY.
AND MIND YOU, IT'S GROWING IN CERTAIN PLACES.
WYOMING GOP, ARIZONA GOP ATTEMPTS OF THE GEORGIA GOP TO GO AHEAD AND SUPPRESS THE VOTE.
IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS FLORIDA LEGISLATURE WHICH HAS GOTTEN A MUCH STRONGER REPUBLICAN BENT IN THE LAST ELECTION TO PUSH EXTRAORDINARILY CONSERVATIVE LEGISLATION.
THAT SIDE IS CERTAINLY GROWING.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE, THE DECLARATION, FOR EXAMPLE, OF THE GEORGIA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, THAT IT IS NOT INTERESTED IN THE SUPPRESSION OF THE VOTE THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE IS TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT MAJOR DONORS TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE SAYING THEY WILL NOT GIVE MONEY TO ANYBODY WHO QUESTIONED THE ELECTION OR THE COUNTING OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES FOR JOE BIDEN BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR THEY WERE LEGAL AND THIS WAS AN ILLEGAL OPERATION.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THE POLITICAL CULTURE SEEMS TO BE SLIDING, THE ADVERTISEMENTS ON THE SUPER BOWL, FOR EXAMPLE, IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE WE ARE DOING WHAT WE DID IN THE 1860s AND THE TURN OF THE LASTá-- THE LAST CENTURY, THE 2000 AND THE PERIOD AFTER WORLD WAR II WHEN WE RECLAIMED AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AS LINCOLN SAID, OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.
IT'S TIME.
I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE TIMING OF ALL THE EVENTS I JUST SAID, WE ARE OVERDUE FOR THAT KIND OF A RENEWAL.
YOU KNOW, I HAVE FAITH WE'LL DO IT.
PROFESSOR RICHARDSON, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.
FOR JOINING US.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
AND THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT AND LONG WORK IN PROGRESS.
> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE REMEMBER THE TRAIL-BLAZING SINGER AND FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE SUPREMES, MARY WILSON.
SHE HAS DIED AT THE AGE OF 76.
THE SUPREMES' MUSIC STAMPED ONTO OUR MEMORIES PUT MOTOWN ON THE MAP.
♪ STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVEá♪ ♪♪♪
NOW, WILSON COFOUNDED THE GROUP WHEN SHE WAS 15 YEARS OLD, WITH FLORENCE, BETSY AND DIANA ROSS.
BLAZING A TRAIL FOR BLACK AND FEMALE SINGERS.
THE SUPREMES WENT ON TO BECOME THE MOST SUCCESSFUL VOCAL GROUP IN U.S. HISTORY WITH 12 NUMBER ONE SINGLES INCLUDING 'COME SEE ABOUT ME,' 'BABY LOVE' AND SO MANY MORE.
TWO DAYS BEFORE HER DEATH AND TO CELEBRATE BLACK HISTORY MONTH, PLUS 60 YEARS SINCE THE SUPREMES WERE SIGNED TO MOTOWN, MARY WILSON HAD ANNOUNCED ON YOUTUBE THAT SHE WAS WORKING ON RELEASING NEW SOLO MATERIAL.
HER LEGACY GOES WELL BEYOND SINGING.
SHE USED HER PLATFORM TO RAISE AWARENESS OF SOCIAL ISSUES, FROM MUSICIANS' RIGHTS TO HIV/AIDS TO GLOBAL HUNGER.
LET'S LEAVE YOU NOW WITH THE SUPREMES' HIT SINGLE 'YOU CAN'T HURRY LOVE.'
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.
♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪