Fmr. Gov. Chris Christie on Trump’s Hold on the GOP

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, almost half the states in America have laws ready to go that would outlaw abortion if Roe vs. Wade is overturned. That would cement a Democratic/Republican divide across the United States. That, plus former President Donald Trump’s unprecedented entry into the current primaries, poses a dilemma for some Republicans. New Jersey’s former Governor Chris Christie is considering running for president himself. And he’s been in and out of Trump’s orbit for years. Here he is speaking to Walter Isaacson about trying to navigate the way forward.

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WALTER ISAACSON, CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Christiane. And, Governor Chris Christie, welcome to the show.

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): Walter, thanks for having me.

ISAACSON: The Supreme Court seems like it may be poised to overturn Roe v. Wade. Do you think that’s going to throw the issue of abortion politics back into the political arena for the midterms? And what effect will that have?

CHRISTIE: Well, look, I think certainly it will throw the issue of abortion back into the politics of each and every state. And that’s, I think, the way it should be. I think that’s the right decision to make for the court, if that’s the decision they ultimately reach whenever they issue it. In terms of its effect on the midterms. Walter, I have to tell you, I just don’t believe it’ll have a big effect. I think, first and foremost, the folks who are single-issue voters on the issue of abortion, either from the pro-choice perspective or the pro-life perspective, they’re already voted in these midterms and they know how they’re voting. The pro-choice voters are voting Democrat and the pro-life voters are voting Republican, in the main. And so I don’t think this is something, especially given the issue matrix we have in front of us for the midterms, at $5-a-gallon gasoline, 8.5 percent inflation, crime problems on the nation’s streets, the war in Ukraine, all those things, I think, are going to be issues that will overwhelm this one in terms of the independent voters who make the decisions in these midterms, and what they’re going to have as their list of priorities.

ISAACSON: But what about when it comes to state legislatures? That’s where the decision really will be, if, indeed, the Supreme Court moves the way that might be indicated. Do you think that abortion politics will really start playing roles in legislative and maybe even governor’s elections?

CHRISTIE: Much more than it will on the national level, I think, Walter. I think that’s correct, because I think what the public will recognize is, that is where the decisions are being made now. So if they want to have their voices heard on this issue, if they want to have an impact on how it will be decided, then what they need to do is to have their voices heard at the state level in electing state legislators and obviously governors who either will or won’t sign the laws that the legislators pass. And so I think it will definitely have an effect in those places. What effect it will have, you can’t be sure. But I think it will be an issue that will be much more aggressively joined, and with a greater impact, at state legislatures and the governor’s races.

ISAACSON: Do you think it’s a good idea in this country, though, to have wildly different laws affecting something that’s pretty basic for most women, which is, as you just said, New Jersey and New York have it pretty far in one way, and then my state of Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, totally the other, having a patchwork quilt in America?

CHRISTIE: Yes, I think that’s the way America works on almost everything. And I think that when you read Justice Alito’s draft opinion, at least, I think he makes the right point, which is, this is not an enumerated right in the Constitution. And it’s not one that I think was ever appropriately decided. That’s always been my opinion regarding Roe, and it remains my opinion today. We deal with most issues in this country. As a former governor, I can tell you, most really important issues in this country are done that way. For instance, let’s talk about Medicaid eligibility, Walter. You know that it’s different in every state. The levels of eligibility, the levels of coverage, the breadth and width of coverage for Medicaid is different in my state of New Jersey than it is in your home state of Louisiana. And that’s in providing people who are underprivileged, economically challenged the basic health care that they need. That’s certainly an extraordinarily important issue. And we deal with that differently in every state, depending upon the population of that state, the conditions of that state, and what the norms are in that state. We do that on hundreds and hundreds of issues. And I don’t think it creates a problem.

ISAACSON: But there’s a basic human rights involved that are not, as you say, correctly enumerated specifically in the Constitution that have been part of this broad way the Supreme Court has looked at individual rights. And that even includes gay marriage, for example, which is not an enumerated right in the Constitution. Should that go back to being a state decision as well?

CHRISTIE: Look, I think that, when you read Justice Alito’s draft opinion, if it stays that way, he makes very clear that issues of intimate sexual relations, issues of marriage and contraception are not covered by a decision like this one or the philosophy that underpins it. Why is that? He makes it clear because this issue of abortion, because it is the taking of life, is contrary to one of the basic foundational principles in the Constitution that guarantees life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You don’t have that situation in intimate sexual relations, in the issue of marriage, or in the issue of contraception. It’s not at a contradictory point to a basic fundamental right that’s enumerated in the Constitution, where the issue of abortion is.

ISAACSON: But contraception, gay marriage, whatever, these are not enumerated rights. Do you think the Supreme Court has gone too far in sort of finding a number of privacy, as they call it, that include all of these things?

CHRISTIE: Look, I think that what Justice Alito says on this is correct. The court’s jurisprudence in that regard, whether you agreed with it initially or not, is not doing harm to a fundamental right enumerated in the Constitution, where the issue of abortion is. And I think that’s the way you make the differentiation, Walter.

ISAACSON: But if it’s been 50 years since women have had this right, isn’t this going to be a wrenching change for the first time to overrule a precedent, not like the Dred Scott or Plessy v. Ferguson, but a precedent that gave a right to individuals?

CHRISTIE: Look, I don’t think that the Supreme Court should have to rely upon decisions that they believe were wrongly decided. In the same way, as you just mentioned, that Dred Scott was wrongly decided, stare decisis shouldn’t rule and have kept that in place. It shouldn’t have kept Plessy in place either, because they were wrongly decided. Brown vs. Board — Brown vs. Board of Education was correct. And that’s the way our law in our country should be and now remains that way now for nearly 70 years after Brown was decided. This is regarding a fundamental guarantee of the Constitution, the right to life. And I think we can’t use stare decisis to hide what was and always has been, in my opinion, Walter, a flawed legal decision, both in terms of its reliance on the Constitution and its taking away of states’ rights under the 10th Amendment.

ISAACSON: Let me ask you a historical question. You go back 50 years to when Mr. Justice Harry Blackmun wrote the decision in Roe. He was a Republican. The court was led by Republicans, very Republican court. And back then, the issue of abortion had not become partisan. There were Republicans and Democrats on either side of the issue. What has caused the United States to make all issues, especially this most important issue, into something that divides us in a partisan way?

CHRISTIE: Well, Walter, I think that the action of the court did that. You know, I think that the way people dealt with abortion prior to Roe v. Wade was that each state made their own decision about how that worked. In the State of New York, for instance, abortion was legal. In many, many other states, it was not. But each state dealt with it on their own. I think people felt like they had their opportunity of their input at the most local level to making these decisions. When those decisions were taken away from each individual state, and nationalized, I think that made the issue much more divisive and much more partisan. And I think that the founders were very, very smart in terms of the way they set up this system of balance between a strong national government, but still strong and very independent states, that could make their own judgment off things that were not included in the constitution. When we move away from that model, Walter, I think it makes people feel like the government that is furthest from them, but they have the least ability to have input with are making big decisions like this, I think it makes these issues more divisive. Now, the issue of abortion, obviously, because it involves life and how precious life is, and how to treat those lives, I think it makes it even more an emotional issue. There may be some others we could talk about. But I think that that wrenching this away from the states 50 years ago is part of what led to the real division we see in this country in a partisan way on this issue.

ISAACSON: In Ohio yesterday, J.D. Vance, won the Republican nomination. He was a venture capitalist from Yale who said of Trump that he is reprehensible, idiotic, was anti-Trump who suddenly became very pro-Trump, and then Trump endorsed him, and it pushed him into the nomination. You have said that your party really hasn’t moved beyond Trump. Tell me your assessment of what happened in Ohio, and how important Donald Trump still seems to be to deciding the future of the Republican Party.

CHRISTIE: Well, Walter, look. First of all, he is a former president and former leader of the party. And so, he’s always going to have influence, what he speaks. But yesterday, was a split decision in Ohio. He worked hard against Governor Mike DeWine. And Governor DeWine won the nomination for reelection as governor, and I think will be overwhelmingly reelected by the people of Ohio come November. In the Senate race, a close race, J.D. Vance won and was endorsed by the former president. So, I think it is a split decision. I think we have to look at what else happens going forward in these primaries. We have a lot of them. In May and in June where the president — former president, rather, has weighed in. We will see how it goes from there. But I think right now, the way you keep the scorecard, I think, after Ohio yesterday is, split this decision, one that the president said (INAUDIBLE) candidate won and one that the president’s favorite candidate lost. And now, we’ll see what happens as we move forward to states like Georgia, Alabama, Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska and others where the president has taken positions on these primaries.

ISAACSON: You have been very involved in the election in Georgia, so has Former President Bush, in favor of Governor Kemp whom Donald Trump has fought against strongly because Governor Kemp didn’t support him in trying to overturn the election results in Georgia. Do you think that is going to be a referendum? And will not be a way to say, we can move beyond Trump, and people like yourself can have more influence on the party?

CHRISTIE: Well, in, Georgia I think the single biggest factor in determining the results of that election will be the performance of Governor Kemp. Look, I think he handled the COVID crisis in Georgia in exemplary fashion, protecting life while also protecting the economy in Georgia in a way that I think looking back, all of us can say was admirable and gutsy. I think he has also done a great job on education in Georgia. And I think when the Georgia Republican voters look at that record on May 24th, they are going to overwhelmingly renominated Governor Kemp. And what that says is two things. First, that they do not resent Governor Kemp for having followed the law. That is what he did. And he took an oath to enforce the law as governor, and that is what he did by certifying the election in 2020 when there was no evidence in Georgia of any type of theft of the election in the State of Georgia. Secondly, it’s going to tell everyone that this politics of personal grievance and vendetta, because that is really what this is with the former president and Governor Kemp. If you went down the list of issues, Walter, that they agreed on, you would find most of the issues they agree on. So, this is purely personal and vindictive by Donald Trump. And I don’t think that our party wants to be led in that direction. And I think it Brian Kemp wins that primary, the 4th, especially wins it without a need for a runoff, meaning he got over 50 percent of the vote, I think it’s going to send a very strong message that to the extent candidates who want to run for president are willing to look forward, look to tomorrow, articulate a feature that is, you know, in contrast to what the Democrats were doing in Washington right now, that those are going to be important parts of our party. But to the extent we’re looking in the rearview mirror, being vindictive, executing vendettas that are only about me and not about us as a collective, I think if Georgia goes the way I think it will, that is going to send a very strong message against that type of politics.

ISAACSON: You wrote a book last year which I really like. It is called, “Republican Rescue.” What do you mean by rescuing the Republican Party? And you’re talking about rescuing it from truth deniers and conspiracy theorists?

CHRISTIE: Yes. Look, I think, after the last election, I felt it was necessary to lay back down for my party, how we, once again, could become a majority party in Washington, D.C. The only place we remain the majority party after 2020, Walter, as you know, was in the nation’s governor mansion. And I think that sent a message too, those governors were not caught up in these politics of pettiness and vindictiveness, but they were doing the job the way the public wanted them to do the job. And so, yes, I went through in that book, as you know, all of these different QAnon and Pizzagate and, you know, the birther issue. Some of these, what I consider to be crazy conspiracy theories, that have gripped sections of our party to try to go as far as a former prosecutor and to bunk them and make sure that people understood. There were no facts that supported these things. And then, also, the election results, and went through state by state why there is no evidence that the election was stolen from Donald Trump. Most particularly because we added 15 seats in the House. We flipped two state legislator chambers and we flip the governorship. We had very good (INAUDIBLE) Republicans. And if it hadn’t been for Donald Trump’s personal me first intervention into the Georgia Senate races, we probably would have retained a majority in the Senate. And so, I felt it all needed to be laid out for Republicans to say there is a pathway forward that looks through the windshield and not three rearview mirror.

ISAACSON: Why do you think it’s been hard for the Republican Party to move on beyond Trump?

CHRISTIE: Well, look, I think part of it is, you know, we are about, now, what, 16 months after the former president has left office. He occupied every particle of oxygen, politically in this country for five years. And the idea that somehow moving beyond that time is going to be easy and quick, I think, is just not understanding the way our political system works. What we need to be focused on is how do we provide an alternative vision that will be attractive to the American people and help to bring our country in a new direction. And I think that is very, very important. Look, I agree with many of the policies that President Trump pursued while he was in office. Where I broke with him was on his personal conduct in the aftermath of the election and on January 6th. And to me, that type of personal conduct goes beyond policy. And so, we have to decide as a party whether we want to focus on policy again, focus on what we are going to do for the country, or whether we want to focus on one person’s personal agenda.

ISAACSON: Do you think you might run for president?

CHRISTIE: I am thinking about it, Walter. I have not made any final decision yet. I will wait until after the midterms this year and into 2023 to make a decision. But at this stage of my life, only if I see a pathway to winning will I get into the race. But if I do, I will do it to win. I care deeply about our country and I want to make sure that we are led the way that makes America the very best it can be. And so, we will give that some thought the rest of this year and probably make a decision into the year first quarter ’23.

ISAACSON: Governor Chris Christie, thank you so much for joining us.

CHRISTIE: Walter, thank you so much for having me. It’s always great talking to you.