Fmr. Navy Commander on Trump’s Purge of the Pentagon

AS WE JUST DISCUSSED, THE PENTAGON IS STILL REELING FROM THE RECENT FIRINGS OF ITS TOP MILITARY LEADERS, INCLUDING THE LEADER OF THE NAVY ADMIRAL.

THEODORE R JOHNSON, A RETIRED NAVAL OFFICER SAID THIS WAS A QUOTE SHORTLY A POLITICAL MOVE.

TARGETING THOSE WHO SAY PORT SUPPORT DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION.

HE TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN NOW ABOUT THE POTENTIAL IMPACT.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU'RE A COMMANDER IN THE NAVY, WHITE HOUSE FELLOW.

YOU WRITTEN BOOKS AND MANY ARTICLES AND SO FORTH.

WHAT MANY PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW IS THAT YOU WORK A SPEECHWRITER FOR THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF.

FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF TO, WHAT DO THEY DO AND WHY DO THEY MATTER?

>> THE CHAIRMAN IS ESSENTIALLY THE HIGHEST RANKING MILITARY OFFICER IN THE COUNTRY AND IS THE PRESIDENT MILITARY ADVISER FOR ALL THINGS RELATED TO THE MILITARY.

THE JOINT CHIEFS ARE MADE UP OF EACH OF THE TOP ADMIRALS AND GENERALS IN THE AIR FORCE, NAVY, ARMY AND MARINES.

AND I THINK THE NATIONAL GUARD HAS A SEAT NOW, THE SPACE FORCE.

THESE JOINT CHIEFS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO MAN AND EQUIP THE FORCES.

BUILDING SHIPS, TRAINING SAILORS, MARINES, SOLDIERS, ET CETERA AND HE ADVISES THE PRESIDENT ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF THAT FORCE OPERATIONALLY AND ADMINISTRATIVELY.

THE >> THEY FIRED THE JOINT CHIEF, HAD MORE THAN FOUR DECADES OF SERVICE.

HE HAS FIRED THE FIRST WOMAN TO LEAVE THE NAVY IN NAVAL OPERATIONS.

AS A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN SO CLOSE TO THOSE POSITIONS, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THIS?

>> IT IS UNCONVENTIONAL TO SAY THE LEAST.

CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS, THESE ARE NOT POLITICAL APPOINTEES, IN TERMS OF WORKING FOR ONE PARTY OR ANOTHER, THEY SWEAR AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND THEY ARE USED TO SERVING ACROSS THE ADMINISTRATION'S MONDAY -- PARTY.

SO IT IS EXPECTED THAT THEY WILL MAKE SENIOR ADVISERS HIS OWN.

THAT IS NOT THE SHOCKING PART.

THE SHOCKING PART IS THE RATE AT WHICH HE IS FIRING FOLKS, THE NUMBER OF FOLKS HE IS FIRING AND THE REASONS THEY ARE BEING FIRED.

IT WAS SAID THAT THE FIRST WOMAN TO LEAD THE NAVY WAS ESSENTIALLY A GENDER-BASED HIRE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FOLKS, OF THE 53 OR FOUR STARS THAT HAVE BEEN LET GO IN THE LAST A FEW WEEKS, ONE IS A BLACK MAN, CHAIRMAN BROWN, AND THREE ARE WHITE WOMEN.

IT MAKES YOU WONDER WHEN THE PENTAGON AND WHITE HOUSE ARE PUSHING SUCH HEAVY DEI POLICIES, IT MAKES YOU WONDER WHY FOLKS THAT ARE LET GO AT THE TOP OF THE MILITARY HAPPEN TO BE EITHER PEOPLE OF COLOR OR WOMEN.

>> I DON'T THINK IT MAKES YOU WONDER, I THINK THEY WERE PRETTY CLEAR.

ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PETE HEGSETH HAS BEEN APPOINTED WAS THAT HE ARTICULATED THIS ANTI- DIVERSITY EQUITY AND INCLUSION MESSAGE AND WANTED TO RETURN TO HER WARRIOR ETHOS.

THE QUESTION I AM ASKING, DO THEY HAVE A POINT?

AND WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE OPERATIONALLY?

>> THEY DO NOT HAVE A POINT.

GENERAL BROWN WAS APPOINTED BY TRUMP TO LEAD THE AIR FORCE.

IF HE WAS A DEI HIGHER YESTERDAY OR LAST WEEK, HE WAS A DEI HIGHER FIVE YEARS AGO OR 40 YEARS AGO IN THE MILITARY.

THE COUNTRY IS GETTING A CRASH COURSE ON HOW TO POLITICIZE THE MILITARY.

WHAT TRUMP AND HEGSETH WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT THE POLITICIZATION HAPPEN WHEN ALL THESE DEI MESSAGES FLOODED THE PENTAGON.

THEY ARE TRYING TO ROLL THAT BACK.

IT IS ONE THING MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT TO ITS TRAINING, READING MATERIALS, ET CETERA, TO ACCOUNT FOR DIFFERENCES.

IT IS ANOTHER THING TO LOOK AT A CAREER OF FOUR DECADES OF SERVICE AND SAY YOU WERE NOTHING BUT A DEI HIGHER AND THE MILITARY HAS NO USE FOR YOU.

ANTI-DEI POLICY IS ONE THING BUT OUT RIGHT RACIAL INTOLERANCE IS ANOTHER.

WHAT WE ARE MOSTLY SINGING IS A PRACTICE IN -- PRESIDENT POLITICIZING AND NOT SOME REJECTION , OR NOT A BLAMING OF DEI FOR PUTTING UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THE MILITARY'S LEADERSHIP.

THE >> HE ALSO DISMISSED TOP LAWYERS FOR THE ARMY, NAVY AND AIR FORCE, WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT HE FIRED ALL THESE TOP LAWYERS?

>> I THINK IT IS A CAN DO WHAT HE'S DONE WITH THE INSPECTORS AGENCIES.

HE IS GETTING RID OF OVERSIGHT AND MANY EXECUTIVE BRANCH CABINETS.

TOP JAG OFFICERS ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE TO SHOW THE MILITARY HOW TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE.

THEY ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE SERVICE AND THE COUNTRY AND THE LIVES OF THOSE THEY ARE CHARGED TO DEFEND AND PROTECT.

THEIR CLIENT IS NOT THE PRESIDENT.

THEIR CLIENT IS THE SAILORS, AIRMEN, MARINES, ET CETERA.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM DONALD TRUMP IS THAT IF YOU ARE NOT WORKING FOR HIM, THERE IS NOT MUCH USE FOR YOU.

EVEN IF YOUR JOB SUCH AS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS TO PROTECT THOSE PEOPLE, HE WANTS PEOPLE IN THOSE SEATS THAT ARE THERE TO SERVE HIM AND CARRY OUT HIS ORDERS.

>> WHEN PETE HEGSETH TALKS ABOUT RESTORING A WARRIOR EAT THOSE TO THEM MILITARY, YOU FOR HIM BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK HE IS TALKING ABOUT?

>> IF YOU YEARS AGO SENATOR TOM COTTON MADE A REMARK SAYING THAT THESE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN JOINED THE FORCE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KILL THE BAD GUYS.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT AFTER 20+ YEARS OF SERVICE, I'VE MET VERY FEW PEOPLE JOIN THE MILITARY BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.

THAT SAID, IF YOU CAN PUT ON THE UNIFORM YOU KNOW THAT YOU MAY BE EXPOSED TO VIOLENCE AND PEOPLE IN UNIFORM ARE WILLING TO CARRY OUT THEIR DUTIES IN THAT SITUATION.

BUT THEY DON'T JOINT TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.

THEY NORMALLY JOINT TO HAVE ACCESS TO ACCESSIBILITY, PAY EQUALITY IS ALSO THERE.

THEY JOIN FOR STABILITY WHILE ALSO DOING SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN BE PROUD OF.

THEY DO NOT JOIN, THE VAST MAJORITY DO NOT JOIN TO PUT A BULLET IN SOMEONE'S HEAD OR BLOW UP A CITY.

SO IF THE WARRIOR ETHOS IS BEING MISTAKEN FOR THOSE WHO ENJOY ENGAGING IN VIOLENCE, THE MILITARY DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE FOR THAT.

CERTAINLY NOT A MILITARY AS LARGE AND PRECISE AS WE CAN BE.

INSTEAD WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THIS SORT OF NOSTALGIA FOR A CARPET BOMBING MILITARY THAT INDISCRIMINATELY DESTROYS ENEMIES WITH NO THOUGHT TO COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

THAT IS NOT THE MILITARY WE ARE TODAY.

>> PETE HEGSETH ALSO SAID THAT THIS IS A REFLECTION OF THE PRESIDENT WANTING THE RIGHT PEOPLE AROUND HIM TO EXECUTE THE NATIONAL SECURITY APPROACH THAT WE WANT TO TAKE.

DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT THIS IS THE NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS?

THE ADMINISTRATION WANTING TO HAVE AS ITS ADVISERS, PEOPLE WHO SHARE THE PRESIDENT'S PURSUE NATIONAL SECURITY, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> EVERY PRESIDENT SHOULD WANT GENERALS AND ADMIRALS IN PLACE THAT WOULD EXECUTE THE NATION'S AGENDA.

AND PROTECT THEIR INTEREST.

THE QUESTION IS, ON THE WORD THERE, IT'S A VERY BASIC ONE, BUT THE RIGHT PERSON, HOW THEY DEFINE RIGHT IS NOT HOW THE MILITARY DEFINES RIGHT.

IT IS CONNECTED TO LOYALTY, IT IS CONNECTED TO ALL OF AVOIDANCE IS OF ANYTHING THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE TOUCHED BY ANYTHING DEI RELATED.

NOW WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT QUALIFICATIONS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN OUR HISTORY, THE BELIEF THAT DIVERSITY IS A NATIONAL AND MILITARY STRENGTH.

PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE MILITARY SHOULD NOT BE POLITICIZED.

PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN THE OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND NOT TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THOSE ARE ALSO THE RIGHT PEOPLE BUT THEY ARE PERSONA NON GRATA IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> ALL OF THESE ROLES HAVE BEEN HELD BY A HIGHLY TRAINED PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF EXPERIENCE.

I WONDER HOW DEEP THE BENCH IS.

HOW EASY WILL IT BE TO REPLACE THESE PEOPLE?

>> IN TERMS OF TALENT, QUALIFICATIONS, RESUMES, ET CETERA, THE MILITARY IS THE MOST REPLACEABLE INSTITUTION IN THE COUNTRY.

WHEN YOU RETIRE THERE IS ANOTHER PERSON IN YOUR SEAT VERY QUICKLY.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PEOPLE TO DO ALL THE JOBS THE NATION REQUIRES EVEN IF TRUMP AND HEGSETH WERE TO LET THE TOP FOLKS GO IN EACH PLACE.

THE BENCH IS DEEP BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE LOOKING AT THE DEEP BENCH, THEY ARE LOOKING AT THE LOYALTY BENCH WHO MIGHT SERVE.

>> WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISMISSED?

>> IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

IF YOU ARE A FOUR STAR YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING HOME AND WILL BE ABLE TO ENJOY RETIREMENT.

IT IS MORE DIFFICULT IF YOU ARE A COLONEL OR CAPTAIN.

A DISMISSAL DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOUR CAREER IS OVER EVEN THOUGH YOUR REPUTATION MAY BE STAINED.

EVEN IF IT IS OVER, YOU DON'T GET TO GO HOME THE NEXT DAY.

NOW YOU HAVE TO WALK AROUND IN UNIFORM THAT --AND YOU HAVE TO WAIT TO BE OUT PROCESSED.

NOTHING WILL BE SMOOTH ON THE POINT OF FIRING FORWARD, BUT IT IS NOT AS ABRUPT AS IT IS IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT PATHS BUT MOST OF THEM DO NOT INCLUDE UPWARD MOBILITY.

MOST INCLUDE A HOLDING PATTERN UNTIL YOU LEAVE.

>> IT SEEMS THAT WOULD BE A REAL HIT TO MORALE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS A TESTIMONY TO TO CONSIDER PEOPLE FOR PROMOTIONS OR FIRING IN THIS WAY.

NEVERMIND THE MORALE OF THE THREE OR FOUR STAR, THEIR PENSION WILL MAKE SURE THEY LIVE COMFORTABLY FOR SOME TIME.

BUT BELOW THEM, IF I WANTED TO BE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF WENDY AND I'VE BEEN IN THE MILITARY FIVE YEARS AND I'VE SEEN COLIN POWELL DO IT IN GENERAL BROWN DO IT AND THEN I SEE GENERAL BROWN GOT FIRED BECAUSE HE WAS CALLED A DEI PICK DESPITE HIS RECORD, I'VE SEEN COLIN POWELL KICKED OUT OF THE PARTY BECAUSE HE CONSIDERS RACE MORE IMPORTANT THAN VALUES BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO SUPPORT OBAMA OVER McCAIN, WHY WOULD I STICK AROUND IN A SERVICE THAT AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMES MY RACE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME, EVEN MORE THAN MY WORD TO OTHER PEOPLE, MY FAMILY AND MY COUNTRY.

IT HURTS MORALE UP AND DOWN THE TRAIN AND BEYOND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IMMEDIATELY AFFECTED.

TRUMP SUPPORTER?

I'M CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FOR THEM.

>> IT IS A WILD TIME BUT I WILL TELL YOU, I HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE TRUMP SUPPORTERS AND THEY ARE GUYS THAT I SERVED IN THE MILITARY WITH AND WE STAY IN TOUCH THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA AND THAT SORT OF THING, AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY LOVE THE REMOVAL OF DEI FROM THE MILITARY.

THEY DO NOT LIKE THE CLAIM THAT DIVERSITY HAS MADE THE FORCE WEEKEND THE SUGGESTION, THE IMPLICATION THAT FOLKS OF COLOR WERE WOMEN WHO ARE SERVING OR LESS CAPABLE OR QUALIFIED.

TRUMP SUPPORTER, THAT LABEL DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY BELIEVE EVERYTHING TRUMP AND HEGSETH HAVE SAID ABOUT PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE SERVED WITH.

REFORM IS NECESSARY, MAYBE SOME BOOKS THAT SHOULD NOT BE ON THE LIST, SO IT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS MOVING --REMOVING ALL THINGS DIVERSITY.

SO THEY ARE ABLE TO HOLD THE TWO TOGETHER BUT THERE ARE UNHAPPY CAMPERS, EVEN AMONG TRUMP SUPPORTERS IN BOTH THE PENTAGON AND RETIRED RANKS.

>> AFTER THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD IN 2020, THE RECENTLY DISMISSED CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS SPOKE OUT IN A VIDEO ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PILOT IN THE AIR FORCE.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE WAS FIRED?

>> I DO, ALTHOUGH I THINK IT WAS MORE OF A MESSAGING FIRING RATHER THAN ONE FOR PERFORMANCE OR COMPETENCE.

IT WAS STRICTLY JUST A POLITICAL MOVE.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

AGAIN, THIS WAS A MAN APPOINTED BY TRUMP TO LEAVE THE AIR FORCE.

LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PREVIOUS CHAIRMAN FROM ARMY.

TRUMP APPOINTS HIM ARMY, HE SWINDLES WHILE WALKING ACROSS THE SQUARE TO THE CHURCH.

AND HE APOLOGIZES, SAYING I SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE, AND SO HE IS RETIRED NOW BUT THEY HAVE REMOVED HIS CLEARANCE AND SECURITY DETAIL AND HIS PICTURE FROM THE WALL AS FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE PENTAGON AND EVEN WRITTEN TO TAKE AWAY A STAR.

WHEN IT COMES TO MILITARY RETIREMENT, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT MILITARY MEMBERS, THAT IS SOMETHING THEY GUARD VERY CLOSELY.

AND IF IT BECOMES A HABIT THAT THEY START MESSING WITH VETERANS BENEFITS, THEY MAY OVERPLAY THEIR HAND ON THIS ONE.

>> WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE THAT THE FORCE HAS BEEN MORE DIVERSE THAN WE HAVE BEEN USED MATTER IF LEADERSHIP IS DIVERSE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS DIVERSE AND WE HAVE ENDEAVORS FORCE.

IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY AND YOU ONLY WANT IT, WAITMAN TO POPULATE THE SERVICE, GOOD LUCK FINDING ANYONE THAT WILL VOLUNTEER.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THE MILITARY WHO ARE LEADING THE MILITARY THAT ARE EXTREMELY DIVERSE YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF VERY SOON WITH A MILITARY THAT CAN'T MEET RECRUITING GOALS BECAUSE IT FEELS UNWELCOMING TO A LARGE SEGMENT OF PEOPLE YOU MUST RECRUIT FROM.

A DIVERSE NATION WITH A DIVERSE MILITARY REQUIRES DIVERSE LEADERSHIP.

IF YOU DON'T WANT DIVERSE LEADERSHIP YOU ARE SIGNALING THAT YOU DON'T WANT A DIVERSE MILITARY AND YOU WANT LEADERSHIP TO COME FROM ONLY ONE PEOPLE.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY DIVERSITY IS NOT JUST THE STRENGTH BUT NECESSITY AT EVERY LEVEL OF THE MILITARY FROM THE FRESH PERSON OUT OF BOOT CAMP TO THE MOST SENIOR ADMIRAL IN THE MILITARY.

>> WHEN DO YOU THINK WE MIGHT SEE THAT CONSEQUENCES OF THIS IF YOUR ANALYSIS IS CORRECT?

>> I THINK IT WILL BE WHEN, RECRUITING, NOT JUST THE NUMBERS STACKING UP BUT WHO IS JOINING, CHANGING.

RIGHT NOW WAITMAN JOINT AT THE HIGHEST RATE OF ANYONE IN THE COUNTRY.

SECOND, LACK WOMEN.

I DON'T KNOW IF WITHIN TWO OR THREE YEARS UNDER THIS KIND OF LEADERSHIP IF BLACK WOMEN WILL LOOK TO THE MILITARY FOR THE SAME KIND OF FINANCIAL AND EDUCATIONAL SECURITY.

OR IF EVERY MOVE THEY MAKE IS BECAUSE OF THE DEI CHOICE OR THEY ARE PUT IN THE BACK OFFICE AND NOT EVEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THEIR RACE ARE CLOSED AND NO ONE IS ON THE OTHER SIDE THAT LOOKS LIKE THEM TO HELP THEM NAVIGATE THE SYSTEM.

WE WILL SEE A LOWERING IN RECRUITMENT.

AND THE OTHER THING, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL TAKE NOTICE, AS MUCH AS WE ARE , I THINK THOSE NUMBERS WILL ALSO DIP IF THE LEADERSHIP IS DEEMED TO BE POLITICAL AND UNFAIR AND ESSENTIALLY PRACTICING, EXERCISING PEOPLE'S LOYALTY INSTEAD OF THEIR COMPETENCIES AND CAPABILITY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.