From UCSB Shooting to Sydney Mall Stabbing: The Violence of Misogyny

>>> NOW, IF MISOGYNY OFTEN GOES UNRECOGNIZED, IT CAN CERTAINLY BE DEADLY.

JUST AS WE SAW ON APRIL 13th IN SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA, WHERE A MAN KILLED SIX PEOPLE AT A BUSY SHOPPING MALL, FIVE OF THEM WOMEN.

AND WHILE POLICE SAY THE ATTACKER MAY HAVE TARGETED WOMEN, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

KATE MANNE IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY AND AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "DOWN GIRL: THE LOGIC OF MISOGYNY."

SHE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY WE MUST ALL RECKON WITH THIS DANGEROUS IDEOLOGY.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR KATE MANNE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANT TO MENTION THAT YOU ARE A SCHOLAR, A COLLEGE PROFESSOR.

YOU TEACH AT CORNELL.

BUT YOU ARE ALSO FROM AUSTRALIA.

SO I JUST WANTED TO START BY ASKING WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEARD ABOUT THAT TERRIBLE ATTACK AT THAT SYDNEY SHOPPING MALL?

>> IT WAS JUST SUCH HARROWING EVENTS, AND I OF COURSE THOUGHT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST OUT BUYING A NEW PAIR OF JEANS, TRYING TO BUY AN OUTFIT FOR A WEDDING, A LOADED BAKED POTATO, AND WERE JUST CONFRONTED WITH THIS HORRIFIC VIOLENCE IN THE FORM OF THIS KNIFE ATTACK.

AND ONE MOTHER DIED AFTER TRYING TO PROTECT HER BABY DAUGHTER, WHO FORTUNATELY PULLED THROUGH.

BUT IT IS A HORRIFIC TRAGEDY.

AND MY HEART JUST GOES OUT TO ALL OF THE FAMILIES AFFECTED.

>> INITIALLY IN THE NEWS REPORTS, ONE DID NOT KNOW WHETHER THERE WAS A MOTIVATION, WHETHER THERE WERE ANY WORDS SPOKEN.

AND THEN IT EMERGES THAT FROM THE POLICE CHIEF, THE POLICE COMMISSIONER, WHO SAID THAT IT'S OBVIOUS TO ME, IT'S OBVIOUS TO DETECTIVES THAT SEEMS TO BE AN AREA OF INTEREST THAT THE OFFENDER HAD FOCUSED ON WOMEN AND AVOIDED THE MEN.

AND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND?

>> YES.

I WAS OF COURSE LIKE EVERYONE AS THESE EVENTS UNFOLDED NOT SURE OR EVEN MAKING A GUESS OR SPECULATION ABOUT THE MOTIONS.

BUT THAT DID CONFIRM THAT THAT SEEM TO BE A MISOGYNISTIC MASSACRE.

WE KNOW THAT FIVE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE SIX WHO DIED WERE WOMEN AND THAT HE ALSO ATTACKED WOMEN WHO WERE WOUNDED DISPROPORTIONATELY.

AND THAT TOGETHER WITH THE CONTEXT THAT WAS HELPFULLY PROVIDED BY THE KILLER'S FATHER ANDREW IN THE AFTERMATH SUGGESTED THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE ATTACKS WE HAVE SADLY BEEN SEEING NOT UNCOMMONLY AROUND THE WORLD THAT STEMS FROM A PLACE OF MISOGYNISTIC RESENTMENT.

HIS FATHER SAID THAT HIS SON WAS FRUSTRATED OUT OF HIS BRAIN, THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL SKILLS AND WANTED A GIRLFRIEND, AND HE SUGGESTED THAT THE ATTACK WAS MOTIVATED BY THIS SENSE OF RESENTMENT AT NOT HAVING THE SOCIAL AND SEXUAL SERVICES OF WOMEN.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WAS INTERESTING TO NOTE IS THAT THE AUTHORITIES SAID THAT THERE WAS NO INDICATION THAT IDEOLOGY WAS A MOTIVE, OR RATHER THAT THIS WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK.

BUT IF YOU CONSIDER THAT A PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE WERE TARGETED FOR THEIR IDENTITY, RIGHT, IF YOU TAKE THE NOTION THAT, YOU KNOW, TERRORISM IS NOT JUST DIRECTED AT THE BYSTANDERS TO SEND A MESSAGE, BUT TERRORISM IS TO PUNISH A GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE, RIGHT, THEN IT WOULD SEEM THAT IT WOULD BE TERRORISM.

AYE JUST WONDERING WHY IT IS THAT WE VERY RARELY HEAR THAT.

WHY IS IT THAT THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE RARELY FRAMED IN THAT WAY AS TERRORISM DIRECTED AT WOMEN?

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

THAT COMMENT OF POLICE THAT IT DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE MOTIVATED BY IDEOLOGY IS SO STRIKING BECAUSE IN FACT, PATRIARCHAL IDEOLOGY IS SO DEEP-ROOTED THAT WE DON'T EVEN NOTICE ITS EVERYDAY ADHERENCE IN POLICING AND ENFORCEMENT.

AND THE IDEOLOGY IS ROUGHLY THAT A MAN, PARTICULARLY A RACIALLY PRIVILEGED MAN, A WHITE MAN LIKE JOEL COUCHY DESERVES TO HAVE A GIRLFRIEND AND DESERVES SEXUAL AND SOCIAL COMPANIONSHIP.

AND IF THAT DOESN'T WORK OUT, HE IS NOT MERELY DISAPPOINTED, HE IS AGGRIEVED.

HE HAS A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT TO HAVE THAT TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP, AND HE FEELS ENTITLED TO LASH OUT VIOLENTLY WHEN THAT DOESN'T COME TO FRUITION IN WHAT I BELIEVE IS ABSOLUTELY AN ACT OF TERRORISM.

IT CREATES TERROR IN GIRLS AND WOMEN AND RIGHTLY SO THAT WE MAY BE TARGETED BECAUSE OF OUR GENDER.

SO I THINK THAT THERE IS A KIND SOMETHING TERRORISM WHEN IT COMES FROM A WHITE MAN WHO FEELS ENTITLED TO WOMEN, BUT WE ARE VERY QUICK TO LABEL SOMETHING TERRORISM WHEN IT COMES FROM A BROWN-SKINNED MUSLIM PERPETRATOR.

AND IN FACT IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THESE HORRIBLE EVENTS, THERE WERE VARIOUS AUSTRALIAN COMMENTATORS WHO ASSUMED THAT THIS WAS AN ACT OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM, WHICH WAS COMPLETELY FALSE.

IN FACT, THE ONE MUSLIM PERSON WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THIS INCIDENT WAS THE BRAVE, COURAGEOUS SECURITY GUARD WHO WAS ALSO THE ONLY MAN INVOLVED, FERAZ TAHIR WHO WAS ONE OF THE VICTIMS WHEN HE TRIED TO INTERVENE IN THIS MISOGYNISTIC ATTACK AND LOST HIS LIFE AS A RESULT OF THAT.

>> WHEN THE FATHER OF THE KILLER EXPRESSED THESE THOUGHT, HE SAID HE WANTED A GIRLFRIEND AND HE HAS NO SOCIAL SKILLS, HANDY WAS FRUSTRATED OUT OF HIS BRAIN, SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT HE WAS BLAMING THE VICTIMS.

BUT I FELT THAT HE WAS JUST DESCRIBING WHAT HE SAW.

AND I JUST WONDER -- I THOUGHT THAT WAS HELPFUL INFORMATION TO KNOW, THAT THAT WAS WHAT WAS IN HIS MIND.

>> I ADMIT THAT WHEN I INITIALLY SAW THE REMARKS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, I WORRIED THAT IT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I CALL EMPATHY WHERE SYMPATHY IS EXTENDED TO A MALE PERPETRATOR OF VIOLENCE AND MISOGYNY OVER HIS VICTIMS.

BUT WHEN I SAW THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW OF THIS GRIEVING FATHER, MY REACTION WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

I THINK HE WAS JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN, NOT EXCUSE OR JUSTIFY HIS SON'S ACTIONS.

I THINK HE WAS HORRIFIED BY WHAT HIS SON DID.

HIS STATEMENT HAD A RECOGNIZABLY BOTH AND FROM.

HE SAID I AM LOVING A MONSTER AND TO YOU HE IS A MONSTER.

TO ME IS A SICK BOY.

HE IS A VERY SICK BOY.

BELIEVE ME ME, IS A SICK BOY.

AND THAT IS NOT INACCURATE.

JOEL COUCHY WAS A DIAGNOSED SCHIZOPHRENIC WHO HAD RECENTLY ACCORDING TO HIS FAMILY DISCONTINUED MEDICATION, AND HE WAS LIVING IN A WAY THAT WAS LARGELY ITINERANT.

HE WAS ON THE FRINGES OF SOCIETY.

WE DON'T HAVE TO SYMPATHIZE WITH HIM WHATSOEVER TO RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN IT COMES TO A PARTICULAR QUESTION, WHY DID THIS MAN WHO WAS AGGRIEVED AND LONELY SNAP ON THIS DAY, THEN WE CAN INVOKE THE FACT THAT HE HAD A PARTICULAR KIND OF MENTAL ILLNESS THAT UNLIKE MOST KINDS OF MENTAL ILLNESS, DOES RESULT IN AN INCREASED RATE OF VIOLENCE.

BUT I THINK WE CAN RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT QUESTION OF WHY HE TARGETED GIRLS AND WOMEN, AND WHY IT IS INVARIABLY A JOE RATHER THAN A JANE, A MAN RATHER THAN A WOMAN WHO HAS THIS KIND OF HORRIFICALLY VIOLENT ERUPTION AFTER A ROMANTIC OR SEXUAL DISAPPOINTMENT, THEN WE CAN RECOGNIZE THAT HIS FATHER'S EXPLANATION IS, AGAIN, HELPFUL, THAT HE WAS MOTIVATED BY THIS SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT TO WOMEN'S LABOR AND TO BEING ADMINISTERED TO AND CARED FOR BY WOMEN.

>> THE WORD THAT MANY PEOPLE USE TO DESCRIBE THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO IS AN INCEL, OR INVOLUNTARY CELIBATE.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE SEEING MORE INCIDENTS LIKE THIS OR ARE WE JUST MORE WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT?

>> I THINK WE ARE SEEING A RISE IN IDEOLOGY.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THE CRIMES OF ELLIOTT ROGER IN MAY 2014 IS THERE HAS BEEN A PROLIFERATION OF THESE INCEL COMMUNITIES ONLINE, WHICH HAVE OFTEN TREATED ELLIOT RODGER AS A KIND OF PATRON SAINT OF THE MOVEMENT.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

WHO WAS HE, WHAT HAPPENED?

IF YOU WOULD.

>> HE WAS 22-YEAR-OLD MAN WHO FELT THAT HE WAS BEING DEPRIVED OF SEX, LOVE, ADMIRATION AND AFFECTION FROM WOMEN.

HE HAD A LONG SO-CALLED MANIFESTO, REALLY MORE OF A MEMOIR, IF YOU ASK ME, IN WHICH HE RECOUNTED THESE DISAPPOINTMENTS, AND HE ALSO HAD A NUMBER OF YOUTUBE VIDEOS, THE LAST OF WHICH WAS ENTITLED "ELLIOT RODGER'S RETRIBUTION," WHERE HE UPLOADED THIS VIDEO TO YOUTUBE IMMEDIATELY BEFORE DRIVING TO UCSB ON MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND, MAY 2014 AND KNOCKING LOUDLY AT THE DOOR OF A SORORITY HOUSE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SANTA BARBARA.

AND LUCKILY, THE WOMEN INSIDE DECIDED NOT TO ANSWER THE DOOR, BECAUSE THE KNOCKING SOUNDED UNUSUALLY LOUND AND AGGRESSIVE.

AND THAT SAVED THEIR LIVES BECAUSE HE HAD A LOADED GUN IN HAND AS HE WAS PLANNING TO EVISCERATE ALL OF THEM.

HE THEN TURNED AND SHOT AT THREE YOUNG WOMEN, ALSO UCSB STUDENTS WALKING OUTSIDE AROUND THE CORNER, KILLING TWO AND WOUNDING ONE OF THEM SEVERELY.

AND THEN HE WENT ON A RANDOM -- SEEMINGLY RANDOM DRIVE-BY SHOOTING SPREE AND ALSO ENDED UP KILLING ANOTHER YOUNG MAN.

HE HAD PREVIOUSLY STABBED TO DEATH HIS THREE ROOMMATES.

AND THAT WAS IMMEDIATELY BEFORE UPLOADING THE YOUTUBE VIDEO.

AND HE THEN SHOT HIMSELF AS AUTHORITIES CLOSED IN ON HIM ON THAT DAY.

SO THOSE HORRIFIC ACTS WERE ONE OF THESE EARLY STRIKING EXAMPLES OF TO ME VERY CLEAR MISOGYNISTIC VIOLENCE, ALTHOUGH IT WAS OFTEN DENIED IN THE PRESS THAT THIS WAS A MISOGYNY, IT WAS SAID INSTEAD THIS WAS MENTAL ILLNESS, EVEN THOUGH IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE THERE WAS RATHER LITTLE EVIDENCE THAT ROGER, DESPITE EXTENSIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION, IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT HE WAS MENTALLY ILL.

IT SEEMS HE WAS AGGRIEVED AND ENTITLED AND HAD THIS SENSE THAT THE WORLD OWED HIM A, AS HE PUT IT, A HOT BLOND WOMAN WHO WOULD TURN UP ON HIS DOORSTEP READY AND WILLING TO DATE HIM AND HAVE SEX WITH HIM.

AND WHEN HE WAS DENIED THIS, HE DIDN'T PERCEIVE HIMSELF AS A CRIMINAL.

HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENFORCING JUSTICE.

HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENACTING REVENGE, RETRIBUTION, BECAUSE THE WORLD HAD NOT GIVEN HIM WHAT HE THOUGHT HE WAS OWED.

>> SOME PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THERE IS KIND OF A WORLDWIDE MOVEMENT OF TRYING TO SORT OF RECLAIM MALE DOMINANCE.

LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN SOUTH KOREA, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A WHOLE POLITICAL MOVEMENT TO KIND OF FIGHT FEMINISM, THE ARGUMENT THAT THERE ARE POLITICAL PARTIES AND POLITICAL LEADERS WHOSE MAIN ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE IS THAT.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING, DO YOU SEE SOMETHING WORLDWIDE?

AND IF SO, WHAT IS IT?

>> YES, WE ARE ABSOLUTELY SEEING A RISE IN ANTI-FEMINIST LEADERS WORLDWIDE WHO ARE BASICALLY CAPITALIZING ON THE FACT THAT BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, PARTICULARLY WHAT WE SEE THIS WHEN IT COMES TO YOUNG MEN VERSUS YOUNG WOMEN, THERE IS A REAL DISPARITY IN ATTITUDES TOWARDS FEMINISM.

AND WE SEE THIS IN THE U.S.

CONTEXT TOO WHERE ALMOST HALF OF YOUNG DEMOCRATIC MEN IN A RECENT STUDY BY THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER IN 2022 SHOWED THAT NEARLY HALF OF DEMOCRATIC MEN BELIEVED WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG THAT FEMINISM WAS A BACKWARDS STEP AND THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE AND A NEGATIVE FOR SOCIETY.

AND THAT IS IN MARKED CONTRAST TO WOMEN'S ATTITUDES WHERE YOUNG WOMEN, IT WAS LESS THAN A QUARTER WHO SAID THAT.

AND WE ALSO SEE THAT THESE ATTITUDES ARE VERY COMMON, MORE COMMON UNSURPRISINGLY IN YOUNG REPUBLICAN MEN AND TO SOME EXTENT WOMEN.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY UNSURPRISINGLY?

>> WELL, I DO THINK THAT ANTI-FEMINISM AND CONSERVATISM ARE IN LOCKSTEP, PARTLY BECAUSE CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGY IS OFTEN INVESTED IN PATRIARCHAL ROLES AND EXPECTATIONS BEING MAINTAINED, PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO INVESTED IN WHITE SUPREMACY AND RACIST IDEALS AND VALUES BEING PROMULGATED AND MAINTAINED IN SOCIETY.

WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF FEMINIST SOCIAL PROGRESS.

WE'RE SEEING WOMEN EDUCATED IN RECORD NUMBERS.

AND WOMEN BEING ABLE TO ACHIEVE POSITIONS OF POWER AND PRESTIGE AND LEADERSHIP AND HAVING A VOICE IN NEW WAYS.

WE'RE SEEING WOMEN TELL THEIR STORIES AS IN THE ME TOO MOVEMENT IN WAYS THAT ARE UNAPOLOGETIC AND UNASHAMED.

BUT IT'S NOT IN SPITE OF THAT, BUT I THINK PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THAT THAT WE ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY SEE ANTI-FEMINIST BACKLASH WHERE PATRIARCHAL FORCES ARE TRYING TO REENTRENCH AND REESTABLISH THE STATUS QUO, AND THAT YOU OFTEN SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE INFLUENCED BY THOSE SOCIAL FORCES BEING CAUGHT IN THE GRIP OF MISOGYNIST IDEOLOGIES AND ALSO THOSE MISOGYNISTIC IDEOLOGIES BEING USED AND EXPLOITED TO ELECT CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTI-FEMINIST POSITIONS OF POWER WORLDWIDE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> SO I THINK WE HAVE TO GO RIGHT TO THE ROOT OF IT AND REALLY START WITH EDUCATION.

PARENTS AND EDUCATORS NEED TO BE TEACHING PEOPLE IN GENERAL, CHILDREN IN GENERAL, BUT YOUNG BOYS IN PARTICULAR THAT THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SOCIAL AND SEXUAL SERVICES FROM GIRLS AND WOMEN, AND THAT THEY NEED TO BE OBLIGATED TO OTHER PEOPLE AND RECIPROCATING FORMS OF CARE THAT WE ALL OWE TO EACH OTHER, BUT NOT BECAUSE OF OUR GENDER, RATHER JUST BECAUSE WE'RE DECENT HUMAN BEINGS.

I THINK WE NEED TO ADDRESS INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, AND ALSO FORMS OF INCEL IDEOLOGY IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEMS.

AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A REAL CALL FOR NOT JUST TEACHING THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF SEX, BUT ALSO WHAT COERCIVE AND MISOGYNISTIC SEXUAL PRACTICES LOOK LIKE.

ONE EXAMPLE OF THIS IS THERE HAS BEEN AN ALARMING RISE AS A RECENT "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORT BY PEGGY ORENSTEIN SHOWED IN THE RATES OF STRANGULATION BY MEN ON WOMEN DURING SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS.

AND THAT IS NOT A SAFE PRACTICE FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF BRAIN HEALTH.

SO WE NEED TO BE TEACHING YOUNG PEOPLE THAT THIS IS NOT A SEXUAL PRACTICE THAT IS SAFE, AND IT IS ONE THAT IS ROOTED IN A FORM OF DOMINATION AND CONTROL THAT IS DEEPLY MISOGYNISTIC.

I THINK THAT SOME OF THE ANSWERS ALSO HAVE TO DO WITH HAVING BETTER MENTAL HEALTH CARE AVAILABLE FOR VICTIMS RECOVERING FROM THESE KINDS OF ASSAULTS AND TRAUMAS.

AND EVEN JUST THE EVERYDAY WEATHERING THAT WE SUFFER AS THE RESULT OF STREET HARASSMENT.

AND YES, POTENTIAL PERPETRATORS ALSO NEED ACCESS TO BETTER MENTAL HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA AND AUSTRALIA ALIKE.

>> HOW DO YOU TALK ABOUT THIS WITH YOUR STUDENTS?

>> SO I LIKE TO BEGIN OUR DISCUSSIONS OF THIS HORRIFYING KIND OF EVENT BY ANALYZING ELLIOT RODGER.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I THINK THAT IS A USEFUL EXAMPLE IS THAT IT CRYSTALLIZES A LOT OF THE IDEOLOGICAL DRIVERS OF THIS KIND OF ACTION.

AND ALSO, MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT CAN BE A CASE WHERE THERE ARE REAL DENIALS OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN TERMS OF THE MISOGYNY THAT OBVIOUSLY MOTIVATED AN ELLIOT RODGER IN THE POPULAR PRESS, IN THE DISCOURSE, IN WAYS THAT POINT TO PEOPLE'S RELUCTANCE TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND CENSURE FEMALE VICTIMS.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE LOOK AT IS THE RESPONSES TO THE ISLA VISTA SHOOTING.

IN PEOPLE RESPONDED IN THE PRESS HE WASN'T MISOGYNIST BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS MOTHER AND VARIOUS WAYS OF MINIMIZING THE MISOGYNY UNFOLDED THAT COST TWO WOMEN THEIR LIVES THAT DAY.

SO ANALYZING THOSE KINDS OF STATEMENTS IS A GOOD EXERCISE IN CRITICAL THINKING, BECAUSE IT MAKES THE POINT THAT MANY PEOPLE WHO PERPETUATE MISOGYNY DO LOVE THEIR MOTHERS.

THEY EVEN LOVE DUTIFUL GIRLFRIEND, LOVING WIVES, GOOD SECRETARIES, ET CETERA.

WHAT THEY DON'T LOVE IS WHEN WOMEN HAVE IDEAS BEYOND THEIR STATION OR DON'T STAY IN THEIR LANE OR DON'T DELIVER THE GOODS TO WHICH A MISOGYNIST FEELS ENTITLED.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

IT'S BEEN A PRIVILEGE AND A PLEASURE.

>> AND DISTURBING TOO.