Gérard Araud and Karin von Hippel on the 2019 NATO Summit

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: What do you predict will be his demeanor here?

KARIN VON HIPPEL, DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF THE ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE (RUSI): Right. Unlike in Brussels in 2018 when he really just, you know, blew up the meeting by questioning NATO’s existence, in some ways, I think he’s going to try to appear presidential this time. He’s facing impeachment hearings in the United States and they’re only going to get worse this week. And so, I think he will want to demonstrate that he can play nice on the world stage with the other leaders.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, Ambassador Araud, because it looks like your president is front and center of this meeting now, not President Trump, because — but your president. The idea of NATO being brain dead and then this unseemly exchange between himself and President Erdogan, and Erdogan saying, aren’t you brain dead? What do you make about it? I mean, that’s very undiplomatic, first of all, isn’t it?

GERARD ARAUD, FORMER FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Yes, it is. You know, I think that President Macron wanted to send a wakeup call and say, you know, the periphery of Europe is burning from Ukraine, Syria, Libya. On the other side Obama and Trump said very clearly, we the Americans, we don’t have to take care of that. So, it’s to the Europeans to react. And the fact is that so far the Europeans have not been reacting.

AMANPOUR: So, what do you think? What do you expect? I mean, you know, I think what you’re saying is that there needs to be some kind of stronger European, I don’t know, army or military or something like this. But nobody agrees with President Macron, at least none of the Europeans. Jens Stoltenberg doesn’t agree with it, Angela Merkle doesn’t agree with it. They say nothing can supersede NATO. We can’t do without NATO, Gerard Araud.

ARAUD: Oh, you know, we have had this recurring debate between NATO and European defense. You know, they are complimentary. And you have quoted, I guess, leaders from the north but, you know, if you ask the Portuguese, the Italians, the Spaniards, the Greeks, what they think of President Macron saying that there is a threat coming from the south, you get a different response. Yes, we can have a European defense complimentary to NATO. We are not going to supersede NATO, but we have to be active in the south.

AMANPOUR: OK. Complimentary. Karin von Hippel, what do you think? What will the American view on that be, do you think?

HIPPEL: You know, it’s interesting. I mean, NATO is 70 years old and institutions get rusty and need a reform. And as ambassador was saying, NATO is facing a number of challenges in the south, in the east, from disruptive technologies, what to do about China, and it really does need to reform. So, in a sense, I agree that Macron’s wakeup call was probably the right thing. Instead of pretending like there isn’t a problem and trying to deal with it behind closed doors, why not get it out in the open. I mean, personally, I don’t have a problem with that,