Has Cancel Culture Gone Too Far? Prof. Loretta J. Ross on “Calling In”

>>> WHILE THE U.S. IS STOKING DIVISION ON THE WORLD STAGE, AND ATMOSPHERE OF HOSTILITY IS BEING FELT WITHIN THE COUNTRY.

THE FEDERAL AGENCIES SHOT DOWN AND LAYOFFS TO THE SLEW OF POLARIZING EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

MANY AMERICANS FEEL AT THE MERCY OF THE TRUMP LEADERSHIP.

HOW CAN WE FOSTER PRODUCTIVE DIALOGUE AT THIS TIME?

LONGTIME HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, LORETTA ROSS, PROVIDES AUDIT -- ANSWERS.

SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS., THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

>> YOU ARE A VERY WELL KNOWN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.

YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR FOUR DECADES NOW.

I WANT TO READ HOW YOU START YOUR LATEST BOOK.

IT IS CALLED, CALLING IN.

YOU SAY, I AM A REFORMED CALLOUT QUEEN.

I FIERCELY CALLED OUT ENEMIES.

I'VE RIGHTEOUSLY CALLED OUT FRIENDS.

I HAVE GLEEFULLY CALLED OUT STRANGERS.

I EVEN ONCE CALLED OUT PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, ALTHOUGH THAT IS A STORY FOR ANOTHER TIME.

MY EGO GETS THE APPEAL TO PUT PEOPLE ON BLAST.

I HAVE REALIZED A LONG TIME AGO THAT RUNNING MY MOUTH NEVER DID SEEM TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT I WANTED IT TO.

OKAY, WOW.

WHAT A WAY TO START.

>> IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

I HAVE A TENDENCY TO SPEAK FIRST AND REGRET LATER.

I AM ALWAYS HAVING TO CALL MYSELF IN FIRST SO THAT I DO NOT SUCCUMB TO THAT TENDENCY AND GIVE MYSELF A CHANCE FOR MY INTELLIGENCE AND INTEGRITY TO MAKE THE IMPACT THAT I WANTED TO HAVE.

>> AN INTERESTING THING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, CALLING IN, HOW TO START MAKING CHANGE WITH THOSE HE WOULD RATHER CANCEL.

YOU RECOUNT A NUMBER OF MOVEMENTS AND ROOMS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN WHERE IS STARTED TO FEEL VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

YOU FELT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE ON THE SAME SIDE EXPENDED A LOT OF ENERGY REGULATING EACH OTHER AND APPLYING PURITY TESTS TO EACH OTHER THAT CONSUMES SO MUCH ENERGY, THE OVERALL OBJECTIVE WAS LOST.

>> IT AFFECTED NATIONAL POLITICS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

WHEN PRESIDENT CARTER OFFERED THE D.C.

RESIDENTS A CHANCE TO GET A REPRESENTATIVE.

THE STATEHOOD MOVEMENT WAS SO BUSY CALLING EACH OTHER OUT THAT WE FAILED TO AVAIL OURSELVES OF THE OPPORTUNITY THAT PRESIDENT CARTER HAD.

BECAUSE PRESIDENT CARTER DID NOT OFFER FULL STATEHOOD BECAUSE HE COULDN'T.

NATIONAL POLITICS COULD HAVE CHANGED IF D.C. HAD THE CHANCE TO SEND TWO REPRESENTATIVES TO CONGRESS.

THE WHOLE BALANCE OF POLITICS COULD HAVE CHANGED BUT WE SABOTAGE OURSELVES WITH CALLOUT CULTURE IN THE 1970s.

THAT WAS A SIGNIFICANT MOMENT BECAUSE THE MOMENT WAS QUICKLY LOST WHEN IN 1980 RONALD REAGAN WAS ELECTED AND THERE WAS NO CHANCE TO GET VOTING REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN A CHANCE SINCE THEN.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING A CLASS FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, WHICH IS A REASON WHY YOU CAME TO PUBLIC ATTENTION.

YOU HAVE SEEN THE PRINCIPLES IN PRACTICE.

HOW DO THE COURSE COME ABOUT?

HOW DID THE IDEA COME ABOUT?

>> I STARTED NOTICING THE CALLOUT CULTURE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

I ASKED YOUNG PEOPLE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS NOTHING THAT COULD BE DONE ABOUT IT.

I DID NOT AGREE WITH THAT RESIGNATION.

I STARTED REVIEWING HOW I TAUGHT BLACK FEMINISTS, HOW I DEPROGRAMMED WHITE SUPREMACIST FROM THE CLAN MOVEMENT AND I REALIZED I HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS FROM PEOPLE I HAVE WOULD NOT BRING HOME FROM COFFEE.

I HAD A CAREER OF HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE I WOULD RATHER CANCEL.

SO I THOUGHT THAT TELLING MY STORY AND OFFERING THE LESSONS FOR MY HISTORY, ALSO FROM PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHER HISTORIANS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS, IT WOULD OFFER YOUNG PEOPLE A WAY TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS THAT ALLOW THEM TO NOT ONLY SIT IN DISCOMFORT, BUT TO SEE HOW MUCH THEY COULD GROW FROM THAT DISCOMFORT.

TO NOT BE AFRAID TO PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK THAT HAUNTS THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

BUT TO OWN YOUR MISTAKES AND ACTUALLY FIGURE IDEAS OF STRENGTH.

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES.

BE AFRAID OF NOT BEING ADULT ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT YOU MADE MISTAKES.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN DOING SOCIAL JUSTICE WORK FOR FOUR DECADES NOW.

REALLY MORE THAN THAT.

SOCIAL MEDIA WAS NOT A FACTOR WHEN YOU FIRST GOT STARTED.

HOW BIG OF A FACTOR DO YOU THINK SOCIAL MEDIA IS IN CONTRIBUTING TO A CALLOUT CULTURE, WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL A CALLOUT CULTURE?

STOMACH I DO NOT KNOW THAT I BLAME SOCIAL MEDIA FOR?

YOU CALL SOMEBODY, YOU PUBLICLY SHAME THEM AND GIVE THEM CONSEQUENCES FOR SOMETHING YOU THINK THEY HAVE DONE WRONG.

I REMEMBER HOW ENRAPTURED MY MOTHER'S GENERATION -- MY MOTHER WAS BORN IN 1922, BY SOAP OPERAS.

SO MANY HOUSEWIVES AND WOMEN AND PROBABLY MEN, TOO, SOAP OPERAS HAD SOCIAL DRAMAS.

WE JUST HAVE BETTER TOYS FOR THE SAME HUMAN EMOTIONS OF REGRET AND SHAME, BLAMING, ANGER, FEAR, I DO NOT KNOW THAT I WILL BLAME THE TOYS BUT THE LACK OF HEALING AS A SOCIETY.

A LACK OF HAVING ADEQUATE HEALING FOR PEOPLE'S DRAMA.

EVERY ADDICTION, SOCIAL MEDIA, DRUGS, CIGARETTES, WHATEVER, IS BORN OUT OF TRAUMA AND UNHEALED EMOTIONS.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON IN MY OPINION.

RATHER THAN THINK WE CAN POLICE SOCIAL MEDIA TO KEEP US FROM OURSELVES.

>> AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EXTREMELY POWERFUL, AND I HAVE TO SAY A CHALLENGING EXPERIENCING.

YOU ARE A SURVIVOR OF AND INCEST.

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY OPEN ABOUT THAT.

YOU WERE WORKING AT A RATE CRISIS CENTER.

YOU WERE APPROACHED BY AN INCARCERATED .

A MAN ACKNOWLEDGED TO RATE WOMEN ON THE OUTSIDE AND MEN ON THE INSIDE.

YOU GOT A LETTER FROM HIM WHERE HE ASKED YOU TO HELP.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

ALL THAT FLOWED FROM THAT.

I START THERE, NOT BECAUSE YOU STARTED THERE, BUT I FEEL THAT IF THERE IS ANYBODY THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO NOT ENGAGE WITH, IT WOULD BE THAT PERSON.

>> I WANTED TO ENGAGE WITH HIM, I WANTED TO COST THEM OUT.

I COULD NEVER HOLD THE VIOLATORS ACCOUNTABLE.

IF YOU'RE HAVING A MOMENT IN LIFE IT IS YOUR FAULT.

WHEN I WENT THERE AND THOSE PRISONERS STARTED SHARING STORIES OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AND HOW THEY HAD BEEN TURNED FROM VICTIMS, INTO VIOLATORS, I COULD NOT MAINTAIN THAT RAGE AT THEM ANYMORE.

WE WERE FELLOW SURVIVORS TRYING TO NAVIGATE OUR OWN HUMAN DIGNITY IN THE MOST AWFUL CIRCUMSTANCES.

ME ON THE OUTSIDE, THEM ON THE INSIDE.

I DESCRIBED THAT AS MY FIRST CALLING IN MOMENT.

WHEN I CALLED MY OWN SELF IN.

I HAD TO CALL MY CONTENT IN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

SO I COULD SEE THEM AS HUMAN BEINGS AND THEY COULD STOP SEEING ME AND WOMEN LIKE ME AS PREY.

I AM PROUD OF THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT AND JOLT -- INDULGENT TO COST THEM OUT.

INSTEAD THEY CALLED ME IN.

EVERYTHING I WRITE IN THE BOOK EMANATES FROM THAT MOMENT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IS THE NEED TO ALIGN YOUR FEELINGS WITH YOUR INTEGRITY.

CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT, WHAT IT MEANS AND WHY THAT MATTERS?

>> AS A SURVIVAL OF RACIAL AND SEXUAL TRAUMA, I FIND WHEN I GIVE INTO THE FIRST IMPULSE TO BLURT WHATEVER IS COMING OUT, THEY FIRST IMPULSE, THAT USUALLY IS A REACTION BECAUSE OF MY TRAUMA AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN THROUGH.

BUT I FIND THAT IF I PUT MYSELF ON PAUSE, AND GIVE A CHANCE FOR MY INTELLIGENCE AND INTEGRITY TO TAKE THE WHEEL, THEN I BECOME TRAUMA INFORMED INSTEAD OF TRAUMA DRIVEN.

EVERYBODY WHO HAS EVER PARENTED A CHILD KNOWS THAT PAUSE.

IF YOU BLURT OUT THE FIRST THING THAT OCCURS TO YOU WHEN YOUR CHILDREN ARE GETTING ON YOUR NERVES, THEY WILL BE IN THERAPY FOR LIFE.

INSTINCTIVELY WE KNOW TO PUT OURSELVES ON PAUSE SO OUR INTELLIGENCE AND COMPASSION AND INTEGRITY CAN BE SHOWN TO OUR CHILDREN.

I WANT US TO USE THAT SAME DISCIPLINE THAT EVERYBODY WE ENCOUNTER, ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BRING OUT THE WORST IN US -- WE HAVE A CHOICE AND YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND YOU CAN MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY IT MEAN.

THAT IS ALWAYS A CHOICE.

THAT PAUSE GIVES YOU A CHANCE NOT TO BE MEAN.

>> YOUR BOOK ARRIVES AT SUCH AN INTERESTING MOMENT.

BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATIONS THAT CALL PEOPLE OUT EVERY DAY.

THEY SEEM UNINTERESTED IN THE FEELINGS FOR SENSIBILITIES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE, THEY MIGHT ARGUE HALF THE COUNTRY THAT FEEL VERY MUCH ASSAULTED BY THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTRY.

SPECIFIC EXECUTIVE ORDERS AIMED AT TRANSGENDER ATHLETES, FOR EXAMPLE.

FEDERAL EMPLOYEES IN MANY DEPARTMENTS HAVE BEEN MALIGNED AS FRAUDSTERS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ON THE RECEIVING END OF ABUSE RIGHT NOW FROM THE NATIONAL LEADERSHIP?

HOW SHOULD THEY RECEIVE YOUR WORDS?

>> I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT TO BE BULLIED.

THAT THEY WANT TO BE JERKS TO OTHER PEOPLE.

I THINK WE HAVE VISIBILITY OF THE JERKS OF OUR POPULATION.

THEY GIVE IT LIFE.

THEY GET ATTENTION.

THEY HAVE CHEAPENED THE CONCEPT OF EMPATHY AND COMPASSION.

EVEN MORALISM.

WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE TO GET ALONG WITH EACH OTHER.

THEY ARE TRYING TO SEE IF THEY COULD WIN THE CIVIL WAR AGAIN.

I DO NOT THINK THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC EVEN THOSE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK MAJORITY OF THEM ARE BEING MANIPULATED, LIED TO AND MISLED.

I AM WILLING TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

PROBABLY A LOT OF THEM ARE KIND PEOPLE TO THEIR ANIMALS, TO THEIR PETS, TO THEIR CHILDREN.

TO THEIR NEIGHBORS.

JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE A LEADER WHO HAS MADE A CAREER OUT OF BEING CONTEMPTUOUS TO PEOPLE, I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THAT IS THE MOST ATTENTION RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT -- LET'S TRY TO DO A MORE SOPHISTICATED ANALYSIS OF WHAT IS GOING ON AND NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU OR VOTES FOR THE OTHER SIDE, THAT IT MAKES THEM YOUR ENEMY PAD >> I GET THE FEELING THAT YOUR BOOK IS AIMED MAINLY AT PROGRESSES.

BECAUSE THERE IS KIND OF A DIALOGUE NOW THAT LOOKS AT THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT AND SAY IT IS LIBERALS FAULT BECAUSE THEY TOOK CANCEL CULTURE TOO FAR AND THIS IS WHAT THEY INVITED.

THIS IS THE BACKLASH TO THAT.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT??

I'M NOT AWARE OF LIBERALS THAT BANNED BOOKS FROM LIBRARIES, FIRED PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO TEACH THE REALITY OF MY HISTORY, OR DEMANDED THAT PEOPLE FROM THEIR OWN PARTY BE KICKED OUT BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SUPPORT THE TRUMP CULTS.

I DO SEE A LOT OF THAT POWER BEING MISUSED ON THE RIGHT, THEN THE LEFT.

IT IS JUST HUMAN BEINGS TO WANT TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS YOU THINK THEY HAVE DONE WRONG.

BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE CANCEL CULTURE IS NOT THE RICH AND POWERFUL THAT GETS CANCELED.

THEY LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.

TRUMP USED THE CANCEL OUTRAGE TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT IS THE VULNERABLE PEOPLE WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS, WHO LOSE THEIR REPUTATIONS, WHO CANNOT FACE UP TO THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD FOR FEAR THAT THEY WILL BE WHISPERING ABOUT, YOU KNOW THAT PERSON, HE USED THE WRONG GENDER PRONOUN.

OR THAT SHE USED THE WRONG THING.

THAT KIND OF THING.

IF THE CANCELLATION IMPULSE IS ONLY AFFECTING THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE, HOW MUCH OF AN EFFECT OF THE -- IT DOESN'T REALLY WORK THAT WELL.

THEY GET AWAY WITH A LOT.

AS I SAID, THEY CAN USE OUTRAGE ALL THE WAY TO POWER AND THE BANK.

WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT IF CANCELING PEOPLE IS THE BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB?

THE HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WE SHAME INDIVIDUALS, CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT FURTHER VIOLATIONS OF PEOPLE'S HUMAN RIGHTS.

THAT IS NOT ATTACKED OF A FIRST RESORT, BUT OF LAST RESORT.

BECAUSE WE TRY TALKING TO THEM FIRST OR WE FIND OTHER EFFECTIVE MESSENGERS TO TALK TO THEM.

>> IS THE EVER NOT APPROPRIATE TO CALL PEOPLE IN?

ARE THERE TIMES WHEN CALLING IN SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I HAVE A DIFFERENT STRATEGY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MEAN ON PURPOSE.

I CALLED THEM UNAPOLOGETIC RACIST AND FASCIST.

I TEACH AT MY COLLEGE HOW TO DEAL WITH THE RISE OF FASCISM.

PEOPLE ARE INTENTIONAL.

I THINK THAT IS A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION AND I'M NOT TRYING TO CALL THEM IN.

I'M TRYING TO OVERPOWER THEM WITH PEOPLE OF GOODWILL WHO ARE TRYING TO BE THE CULTURE OF CONTENT AND MEANNESS AND LIES AND VIOLENCE THAT IS BEING IMPOSED UPON US.

I'M NOT TRYING TO CALL IN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTENTIONALLY HARMFUL.

I WANT TO CALL IN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING MANIPULATED AND BEING HARMED BY THE MALICIOUS PEOPLE WHO ARE USING THIS AS A WAY TO POWER.

>> HOW DO PEOPLE START CALLING PEOPLE IN AND STOP CALLING PEOPLE OUT?

WHAT ARE SOME PRINCIPLES TO LEAVE US WITH?

>> LET ME TELL A STORY OF THE BLIND WOMAN IN MY ONLINE CLASSES.

I TEACH THIS STUFF ONLINE.

SHE SAID THAT EVERY TIME I HAVE TO GO UP A STEP AND INTO A DOOR, AND ARM COMES UP ON MY BODY.

IT ALWAYS FEELS LIKE A SECULAR THOUGHT TO ME SO I GO BALLISTIC AND CURSE PEOPLE OUT.

WHAT CAN I DO DIFFERENTLY?

I ASKED HER TO REENTER AND THINK OF IT AS A KIND OF -- THANK THEM FOR THE KINDNESS.

SET YOUR BOUNDARY AND SAY THAT I DO NOT LIKE STRANGE HANDS COMING ON ME THAT I DO NOT SEE COMING.

THE THIRD STEP IS TO SAY IF YOU WANT TO HELP SOMEONE WHO IS BLIND OR DISABLED, WHY DON'T YOU STOP AND ASKED THEM HOW THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE HELPED FIRST?

ONE, TWO, THREE, TURN A CALLOUT INTO A CALL IN.

THE FIRST PERSON YOU CALL IN IS YOURSELF.

WE WANT PEOPLE TO DO MORE KINDNESS, NOT LESS.

IF YOU CURSE THEM OUT FOR TRYING TO BE KIND, THEY WILL NOT DO IT ANYMORE.

YOU NEED YOUR BOUNDARIES ALSO.

THIRD, YOU CAN OFFER YOUR VULNERABILITY AS A WAY TO CREATE GOOD CHANGE IN THE FUTURE.

>> HOW WOULD YOU RECOMMEND PEOPLE THAT DISAGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP RESPOND TO HIM AND HIS INITIATIVES?

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS A DIFFERENT ENTITY.

I HAVE US TRAGEDY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP BUT IT DOES NOT INVOLVE CALLING HIM IN.

THE PEOPLE BEING MANIPULATED AND HARMED BY HIM AND PARTICULARLY THE ONES WHO VOTED FOR HIM, I STILL WANT TO ASK THEM WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU IN YOUR LIFE?

I'M NOT HERE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION TO CRITICIZE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WRONG.

I WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT YOU.

HOW WE CAN BUILD ON THAT MORE.

YOU HEAR WHAT ALL THE TIME ABOUT HOW WRONG YOU ARE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR BELIEF IN THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY IS A GOOD THING.

CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE CAN BUILD THAT FUTURE TOGETHER WITHOUT DEMONIZING EACH OTHER?

LORETTA ROSS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.