“Io Capitano” Captures the Hope and Danger of Migration

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, now, 2023 saw a record number of migrants cross the Atlantic to the Spanish Canary Islands with many lives lost at sea. European governments are responding with harsh crackdowns, but rarely do we hear from the people making the treacherous journeys. Italian film director Matteo Garrone is hoping to share their side of the story through his new film, “Io Capitano,” which follows two Senegalese migrants traveling from Africa to Italy. It’s largely inspired by the experience of Mamadou Kouassi. He joins our Hari Sreenivasan with the film’s director to discuss that incredible journey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Matteo Garrone and Mamadou Kouassi, thank you both for joining us. Matteo, let me start with you. Why did you choose to direct this movie about migration?

MATTEO GARRONE, DIRECTOR, “IO CAPITANO”: Well, the idea — first of all, thanks for invite us. And the idea start from the desire to give finally visual form to a part of a journey that we usually don’t see. We are used — in Italy, in Europe, we are used to see only the last part of the journey when the boat arrives in Sicily. And there is a ritual count of the people alive and people dead. So, with times, we are used to think that are just number, you know. And in the last 15 years 27,000 people have died on this journey. And so, we decide to try to put the camera on the reverse shot to finally tell the story of this odyssey from the point of view of them, trying to give to the audience the possibility to live in subjective this journey through the eyes of the real protagonists, of the survivor.

SREENIVASAN: Mamadou, you are a migrant yourself. You’re also a consultant on this film. You know, there’s a scene in the film right at the beginning where the two cousins are deciding to go with the — make a go of this journey, and one of the young men is kind of telling his mother that he’s going to do this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I can realize my dream there. I can help my (INAUDIBLE). Look where they sleep. The house is falling apart.

I want to help you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Enough. Who told you this? Who’s (INAUDIBLE)? I don’t need you (INAUDIBLE). You have to stay here and

(INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Those who made it (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Don’t (INAUDIBLE). Those who left are dead in the desert or in the middle of the (INAUDIBLE). Dead

bodies (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SREENIVASAN: Why are migrants like yourself so desperate to get out? If you know, and if you have heard about these dangers, especially in the desert and what happens to people in Libya, why get on that first bus?

MAMADOU KOUASSI, SCRIPT CONSULTANT, “IO CAPITANO”: Of course, if somebody is pushed by a dream, he has to follow the dream to follow his heart. So, even we know that because we took information from other people before we travel. And they told us it is dangerous to cross the desert, but we don’t care. We want to follow our dream to reach — to have better life. This is the situation. So, being pushed to get better life, we decide to cross the desert at any cost. So, this is the reality because in Africa, we don’t have this opportunity also to have this kind of — to have — to make our dream come true. So, this is the reason why we decide also use of African people to travel and get to — get a better life in Europe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We did so much work to be able to (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Me neither.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): (INAUDIBLE). White people will be asking you for (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SREENIVASAN: So, Matteo, given that there were all these different stories that you could have picked up, how did you write the script? How did you focus on the journey of two cousins?

GARRONE: It’s the structure — is the structure of an adventure. They live an adventure. It’s a contemporary odyssey. So, it’s the journey of the year. I listen many of their story and then I try to put two or three stories together in one unique story. And we recreate this world, we recreate this Homeric fairy tales. We recreate this adventure. Trying — as I said before, trying to tell the story, to — trying to be honest, trying to be simple, trying to be invisible. That’s what’s the word on the set to be invisible.

SREENIVASAN: Yes.

GARRONE: To give to the audience the possibility to live the experience, because cinema is not information, is experience, emotional experience. The first story that I heard many years ago was the story of Fofana (ph), that when he was 15, he drove this boat without know how to drive a boat. And he made this heroic act of save the life of 250 people reaching, finally, Italy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): (INAUDIBLE), you can both leave (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The boat?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I’ve never done that. I don’t even know how to swim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No problem. I’ll teach you how to drive a boat. Very easy. In one day, you’ll be in Italy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In one day, we’ll be in Italy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Just one day. You just got straight ahead. And as you’re (INAUDIBLE), if the police catch you, you

(INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But it’s not sure they’ll (INAUDIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No. When you (INAUDIBLE) police stay away from the cabin. There won’t be a problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRONE: And so, I talked with him and I discovered that after this act, he went in jail for six months. And unfortunately, we leave this contradiction, because they are — as I said before, they are contemporary hero —

SREENIVASAN: Yes.

GARRONE: — and they are treated like trafficking of human being. Because sometimes easier to put in jail people that don’t have voice and treat them as a trafficking of human being. So, that’s — it’s injustice and we hope that the movie will show these injustices to all the world and things will change.

SREENIVASAN: Mamadou, I don’t think that most people watching the film in the West are aware of what happens in the countries in between, especially in Libya. Can you tell me a little bit about the human trafficking and the gangs that are in between people getting from their origin country to the coast to get on one of the boats?

KOUASSI: It’s difficult to explain because, you know, this — those countries, their economy is based on petrol. After the petrol, they use we black people, like they treat black people. So, it becomes the second economy of those people that people are being treated in these countries and they have some underground places — prison that even sometime the government doesn’t know that they exist in the Sahara. And most of the time, if they see that you people are in number, they can take some people and take them back to the Sahara and leave them there. And those people sometimes they die.

SREENIVASAN: Matteo, what were some of the challenges in making this film? You used mostly nonprofessional actors. A lot of the extras and the characters that are in the film were migrants themselves. You were shooting this, this was not an Italian film, so you’re shooting parts of this — most of this in languages that you don’t understand. So, how did you just kind of the blocking and tackling of making a film like this?

GARRONE: Yes. Well, it was, yes, big challenge. Of course, I didn’t understand the language, but that was the reason why I decided immediately that the only way to make the movie was together. So, I’ve been a sort of intermediator. I put my experience, my way of look at the service of them, at the same of their story. So, I was always with them, from the script, also on the set there. There were — all the extra in the movie were real survivor, real migrant that already made that journey. So, they could help me to recreate the authenticity of this journey, the details. And yes, we made this movie all together. So, I had this incredible privilege to be with them and to see them on the set, in front of the monitor, how they react, how they recreate this journey and we wanted to be authentic for the respect of the people that made this journey, for the respect of the people that died on this journey. And also, that’s very important for show to the African what the journey means because we — the movie will be released in 20 countries in Africa.

SREENIVASAN: Matteo, what is the feeling at the moment in Italy towards migrants that are making this journey or to the migrants who are already in the country?

GARRONE: Well, I think in Italy, like also in general, in Europe, or also in the rest of the world, the tendency is always more on the close than the borders, on make war. And the movie try to show that there is a lot of people, especially young, often, that they don’t stop in front of wall, because they think that the right to move, to discover the world, to look for a better life, for help the family is something that should be for everybody, for every human being. So, they see people from our country going holiday in their country, and if they want to move and come in our country, they have to risk their life.

SREENIVASAN: Matteo, right now, the politics of Italy have swung to the right. You have a prime minister, Giorgia Maloni, who has said, “I will not allow Italy to become a refugee camp for Europe.” And what seems to resonate with the people who have elected her are sometimes the security concerns that she says that Italy should be aware of some of the people that are coming across. And she has also said that there is an economic concern that the people of the Middle East and North Africa will replace the working people of Italy. Are these fears justified?

GARRONE: Well, I think we are — we — this problem is global. I think also in the States, you have a similar problem with the Mexican people, and I think it’s universal. My point of view is that we should always more try to open — from my point of view, open the visa to give the possibility to the people to move without the risk, their life, you know, to move because we are a country, especially Europe, very old, and the 70 percent of the people in Africa are young, so we can create something together. We can help each other. And I think making this movie is an example of how we can work together and do something beautiful.

SREENIVASAN: Mamadou, you’re working now as a cultural liaison with migrants who are entering the country, and I wonder what are they telling you and what have you experienced since you have been there about this shift politically to the right? Do you feel like people are less welcoming of migrants or more suspicious?

KOUASSI: When I arrived in Europe, what I was expected is not what did I see. I suffer a lot. I slept outside. And those people that are coming today, most of them are facing the same situation. So, sometimes those people who come to Europe, they do not get the chance to integrate themselves and most of the people staying outside. Even here in the United States, we saw some people that are staying outside. So, this is a global situation that everything — the policy has to — there should be a new policy regarding out of the migration. And this film, I think that has brought a way for the politician to think – – for all the human beings to think that this is the time to have a new policy regarding migrations, to let the people to be able to travel easily all over the world. We are not saying that they should open all the borders, but giving chance to people to travel, you can control the migrations. Giving chance to people to travel, this is the human right.

SREENIVASAN: Matteo, you also had a private screening with the pope. He has been outspoken about migration issues. One of his first trips as pope was to Lampedusa in Italy, where so many migrants land. What was that meeting like?

GARRONE: Well, for us, it was an incredible moment, but it doesn’t surprise, the fact that the pope wanted to support this movie because he always has been from the side of the — this contemporary hero, from the side of the migrants. So, he always trying to give voice to them to show to the world the injustice and trying to hope that the world could put down the world instead of put up. And so, the movie is about a reflection, about inclusivity and not separation. And the pope who wanted to support us, for this reason, because he felt that we told this story from the point of view of them, from the point of view of this contemporary hero.

SREENIVASAN: Mamadou, this may seem like a strange question, but what do you think was harder, getting to Europe or life since you’ve been there?

KOUASSI: I think being in Europe, the journey was so much harder because, me, for example, I spent three years. And these three years, I saw many people dying. Desert, Mediterranean Sea, prison. So, being — you know, doing this journey was very cruel for me. But at the same time, I’m not going to tell you that being in Europe is easy, because there are some difficulties, obstacles that people face in Europe. It is important that there should be a policy to integrate people that are living in Europe. Because there are some people living here for years, 10 years, 15 years, with — they are undocumented people. They don’t have any house to stay. So, this is another type of problem that people are facing.

SREENIVASAN: Mamadou Kouassi, a migrant and a script consultant for the film called “Io Capitano,” directed by Matteo Garrone, thank you both for joining us.

GARRONE: Thank you.

KOUASSI: Thank you.