iPod Inventor on Big Tech: “There Will Be a Reckoning”

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Next, Apple founder, Steve Jobs, quickly became a household name of course. But few know of the other trailblazers behind the company. Tony Fadell co- created the iPhone as well as the iPod alongside the famous designer Jony Ive. And he’s now mentoring the next generation of start-ups that are changing the world. His new book “Build” is an advised encyclopedia. From his personal experience navigating initial failures to monumental success. He joined Walter Isaacson to talk about his journey and the future of tech.

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WALTER ISAACSON, HOST: Thank you, Christiane. And Tony Fadell, welcome to the show.

TONY FADELL, PRINCIPAL, FUTURE SHAPE: Thank you so much, Walter. It’s wonderful to be here. And thank you, Christiane, for having me.

ISAACSON: You wrote a wonderful book called “Build” that’s just out. And it’s about how to be a great entrepreneur start-up artist. I knew you back when you did the iPod and then the iPhone. You led the team at Apple that made those. Tell me what lessons you learned from that, that entrepreneurs should know?

FADELL: Well, you know, “Build” was really a book all about mentorship. It’s, you know, it’s — it was written to help people whether they’re in their career building something or in their — you know, building themselves or building a team, building a product. And so, these are lessons learned from across my — across my back — my experiences. But the biggest thing that I learned at Apple was from Steve was to how to tell a story and generate a customer experience. From the very moment someone heard about a product and figuring out how to get people to hear about the product, all the way through not just buying the product or using it but also what happens for customer support, all of these kinds of things. How do you tell a real story about the product as well as bring that story to life through every single customer touchpoint that a user has or even a — before they purchase the product? So, that was a big thing that Steve brought to Apple and was such a master at it.

ISAACSON: One of the things we do as we learn from things that don’t work, that were mistakes. And in some ways, you learned from your “General Magic” experience. Explain what “General Magic” was and why it didn’t really work?

FADELL: OK. So, “General Magic” — there’s a whole movie about it. People should check it out because it’s the — it’s a spectacular failure that people can learn from. But “General Magic” was the Mac team minus Steve creating the iPhone 15 years too soon. It was a product that was born out of the future. OK. And it was a bunch of incredibly smart people, my heroes, creating something that the world didn’t need yet. They were creating for each other. They saw where technology was headed. So, they were creating for each other. But people in that day, and this was in — early ’90s, they were creating that iPhone back in the ’90s, there was no internet. We had no internet. So, we had no mobile data services or mobile communications. Most people didn’t even have email, right? We had downloadable e-shopping of travel, games, apps. All of these things that — today, we know our problem- solvers, painkillers. Back then, no one even knew they had the pain. They didn’t even know it could exist. It looked — it was basically magic. But no one had to buy it. You know, they didn’t have the need to buy it, except a few geeks, about 3,000 people bought it. And it was a — at the time, $500 million, $750 million investment. And obviously, it turned into zero. So, you know, it’s not just about having the right team. It’s also having the right timing when society understands the problems you’re trying to solve, as well as having the technology to solve it in the right way. So, you take all of those things to come together to make a new product. And that ultimately ended up what became the iPhone, right. And many of the different people at “General Magic”, android was born out of “General Magic”, Ebay was born out of “General Magic”. So many things came out of there. And it was a seminal time for many people. And I would never trade it for — trade that disaster.

ISAACSON: I get it.

FADELL: Because we really learned from that failure in a big way.

ISAACSON: One of the things about “Build”, the book, is that it’s of mentorship in a box, you call it. Tell me why mentorship is so important and who was the most important mentor in your life?

FADELL: My most important one? My grandfather. Because if he didn’t start me on the path, I would’ve never gotten through all of the things that I did. You know, he was an educator. He was the superintendent of the Hamtramck school system in — right outside Detroit — or inside Detroit, Michigan. And he taught me how to use tools. He taught me that everything in this world that has been built, has been built by humans. And don’t be afraid of it. You can create with — just like they did or you can modify. You can repair. And so, I was using tools with my brother. You know, hand tools at three years, and saws. And, you know, my mom and grandmother were, like, shrieking, like, oh my, God. They’re going to, you know, hurt themselves. But he put us in harm’s way for a reason, to teach us. And teach us that we can create, we can be creative. And that was at the age of three or four. And he continued and helped me buy my very first computer. So, I think he was a clear person who could educate and get me set on the right trajectory. And I couldn’t thank him more and dedicate the book to him.

ISAACSON: When you helped create the iPhone and then the iPod and then the iPhone, it really kicked Apple up a huge notch into being a platform in which other people could build. And it made Apple very much a concentration of power. Now, we have four or five companies like Google, like Apple, like Facebook that truly concentrate power. What do you do to try to stop this market concentration that might hurt competition?

FADELL: Well, what I’ve always said, and I do believe with great power, comes great responsibility. And you cannot extract every penny from everyone because — and you can’t — and this is the problem I saw, you know, with other companies in the ’90s and 2000s where they would crush the suppliers in Asia and get all the money out and they would just have them, you know, quarter to quarter, they were all paupers even if they were doing incredible work for these businesses. You have to understand when you are in that seat, you have to be benevolent. And you have to make sure everybody is winning here. If somebody is losing, they’re going to come against you at some point. And so —

ISAACSON: Well, do you think some of these big tech companies are following the role of benevolence when it comes to competition?

FADELL: No, I don’t. Unfortunately, I don’t. And I think that they need to be careful because it will be a strong backlash. Just like any revolution of a government where the inequity becomes so wide, there’s a revolution. There will be a reckoning at some point. And everyone has to understand we have to all work and get along. It doesn’t mean we’re all equal. But it doesn’t mean we have to be closer and reduce the inequality and make sure that it is accessible to people and open because otherwise you will get an uprising and we’re starting to see that in governments around the world because they said enough is enough. And you can’t just extract, extract, extract without giving back.

ISAACSON: And there’s a big push back against big technology in American politics today as well. Which of the technology companies be worried about and is it a valid worry?

FADELL: Well, I think not just tech companies but most companies in general. You know, they have become governments in their own right in some way. The CEOs — and I don’t — I wish them well, but a lot of them are politicians now. They have to worry about the governments and multiple governments. And you know, should we be selling in China or not? If we are selling in China, we’re not, you know, doing the right thing for human rights. These kinds of things. So, these big businesses have turned into governments in a way. And these CEOs have turned into, you know, certain government officials. And that’s – – and with their own biases, you know where they — the people claim that they have a biases. It’s really hard now. I don’t have any real advice. But if we have to watch out for politicizing companies and company culture because it, you know — and media has always kind of been that way. But we can’t let that get into tech and everywhere else. Because if we do, we’re never going to solve this climate crisis. We’re never going to solve our social media crisis that we have. We have to find some more common ground and bring more togetherness and be around a mission and not am I left, am I right and being attacked from all sides.

ISAACSON: You talked about the crisis in social media —

FADELL: Right.

ISAACSON: — just now. What is the crisis in social media?

FADELL: Anyone with any voice says I have an equal right to use this amplification tool to influence people. And for me, the biggest issue is sure you can have a bigger town square. OK. So now, you have a bigger town square with a town crier and says whatever they want. But when you’re selling ads and those ads are algorithmically put next to things that have intentional inflaming content, whether that’s you believe it or you don’t like it, that is where you’re amplifying for money. And that drives companies and Wall Street to only look at those metrics of money and engagement instead of societal benefit, right. You have —

ISAACSON: Are you talking about Facebook in particular?

FADELL: I’m talking — yes, Facebook, in particular. I look at other people as well. You know, Twitter is doing what it can and well see —

ISAACSON: but what should be done with Facebook?

FADELL: What should be done with Facebook? Facebook — well, we’ve heard their false promises for years. They need to be regulated. These needs — you need to come in and you need to start looking at these algorithms and start removing this amplification from revenue model, right? It is toxic. We have to separate the two. And we saw what happened in media, in — and traditional media. It is 10 or 100 acts online media. And we have to do something about it and get that algorithm out and understand it’s for public good. Not for public destruction.

ISAACSON: And how do you do that with a private company? Do you think the government should go in and sort of fiddle with the algorithm of Facebook?

FADELL: Well, I wish the controllers of Facebook would actually dig deep into their hearts. Find their hearts and understand that what society do we want to build? What do we want to live in? When we were doing the iTunes video store after the music store for the iPad and what have you, there was a discussion about — with Steve and the executive team at Apple. Should we put porn? Should we put porn on the Apple video store? License video store? And Steve got up and said, this is not a world I want to live in. I don’t want this world for my kids, my grandkids. We will not do this. This is not allowed. We — I don’t care if people make money and it’s an incredible cash business. I am not doing it and I am not enabling it, right. It takes that kind of leadership at these other media companies to say, what kind of world do we want to live in? What society do we want to live in for, not just ourselves but our kids and our grandkids in our societies? It takes that kind of guts. When you have that kind of leadership, you have that kind of responsibility, you need to lean in on that.

ISAACSON: I want to read you a quote, you say, “I wake up. I have cold sweats every so often thinking what did we bring to the world?” In other words, are you having second thoughts about the addictiveness of the iPhone and other types of devices that are now controlling the attention of our kids?

FADELL: I am. I do think about it and that quote, that statement I made is absolutely true. These were unintended consequences. The iPhone and mobile networks and data and internet, all converged at the same time to be 24/7. The goal here was to be able to do things that you do on your computer remotely. OK. That’s what the whole goal, we see and do quick messages. It became quickly the center of our life and especially when the Apple economy was added to it years later, right. When it was added years later, or a year ago, that’s when people were able to exploit the platform. So, the way I look at this is the iPhone or smartphones in general, they’re refrigerators. OK. They’re neutral. If you put bad things in your refrigerator and you eat those things, well then you know, you’re not going to be healthy. So, we have unintended consequences with the iPhone. So, what you as a platform, you know, as a platform fighter you have the responsibility to give nutritional facts for every single app that you download. Does it have kind of these algorithms in it? What could it do to you? What are the — just like we have for food, what’s the nutritional line items for all the things that are in these apps we download? And I don’t want —

ISAACSON: But wait — wait a minute. No kid is going to be reading the nutritional values of every app.

FADELL: No, that’s true.

ISAACSON: We have unleashed this. What should we be doing about the world that these devices play in our lives? Should we be putting them in separate rooms at times?

FADELL: Yes, well absolutely. Look, there’s one when kids are 18 and below, I think you have to put in screentime limits. You know, I was a real big advocate for screentime limits and different safety around that. But parents also have to abide by that as well. They have — they set the role — they’re the role models for the kids. They can’t just control the kids and not control themselves. But that said, we do need more system-level controls around these things, so you do that. Now, you have to be the change you want to be, you to — for — to see that your kid should mirror. Those are the kinds of things where put your phones away when you’re at the table. Look at each other. Talk to each other. Don’t just do this, right. Don’t even have the phone on the table because it’s distracting. I turn off all the notifications. You know, pre-COVID, we actually had one day a week where we would have no screens and displays in the family, right, to have that kind of experience. We know that these are really useful tools, right. And the reason why I don’t feel bad about these tools is because they bring incredible information. But like food and everything else, it needs to be used in moderation for information. Work, you got to work on it. But when you’re consuming things like entertainment or other content, you need to watch out. Because you cannot just binge-watch everything, you can’t just TikTok or reels or whatever that stuff. You have to moderate yourself and use screentime tools. And also use, you know, help your kids who you have to teach.

ISAACSON: You know, it’s really interesting. You’re one of the primary inventors of the iPhone, obviously, Steve Jobs was.

FADELL: Absolutely.

ISAACSON: Steve Jobs never allowed his kids or his family or himself to have the iPhone or any computer where they ate dinner, in the evenings. And likewise, you’re saying, as one of the primary people who helped bring us the iPhone, you don’t allow it around dinner. You don’t allow your kids just to use it. So how do you —

FADELL: Yes, I really am — get upset when I do see that. And I also don’t want to see it when it’s — when adults are together either.

ISAACSON: You’re now very involved in green technology. Tell me why you’ve turned your focus to that and what do you think the promise of those technologies are?

FADELL: So, we are in a climate crisis. We are going to have to reinvent our — the way we live our societies. We need to find those technologies that allow us to live similarly to what — well not the same, but similarly to what we can live today but in a green circular way. So, we’re trying to find the disruptive technologies that allow these things to happen. So, I’ve taken it on over the last six years. And now we’re investing in 20, 30, 40 different companies all around climate. And in fact, with “Build”, all proceeds — now, proceeds of “Build” are matched five times by me to go fund climate crisis solutions. So, we’re really trying to — with this book and with our — with what we do every day, is try to show the way of how we are going to get out of this crisis we’re in. And we’re going to need to do it together with the best brains, the best capital, and work together to make that happen. So, I’m very excited about the hydrogen economy. I’m very excited about new forms, like I said, of agriculture, transportation. And so for me, it’s really rewarding to see, you know, what happened with COVID and how we all came together around COVID. COVID sucked. But we needed to come together and create new businesses and new ways of being — and we could pull it together in weeks. Look at what happens — the terrible tragedies that going — ongoing in Ukraine. Look at how we’re changing our energy systems in weeks. We can do this if we mobilize, and unfortunately, against ourselves and how we’re living. We have to mobilize and have the will to go and make those changes so it is better for our future generations as well as ourselves.

ISAACSON: Tony Fadell, thank you so much for joining us.

FADELL: Hey, Walter, always great to see you. Thank you.