Is the U.S. Doing Enough in Ukraine? Sen. Kaine Weighs In

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR:  And as we’ve been saying, the United States is ramping up its response to Russia’s aggression. Senator Tim Kaine is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees. And he talked with Michel Martin about what Congress plans to do if Russia escalates.

MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Senator Tim Kaine, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Glad to you with you, Michel. Thanks.

MARTIN: I just wanted to start by asking about the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s speech to the United States Congress the other day. First, he asked for what he called a humanitarian no-fly zone.

KAINE: Yes.

MARTIN: And he was making the distinction, I assume, from a sort of a blanket no-fly zone. And then, he also asked the U.S. to provide fighter aircraft that the Ukrainians could use to defend themselves. Now, White House press secretary, Jen Psaki, told reporters that the White House doesn’t support instituting a no-fly zone over Ukraine or supplying Ukrainian aircraft with the pilots with new fighter aircraft. What’s your take on this?

KAINE: Michel, President Zelenskyy asked for these as sort of alternatives. If, could you do one? And if not, could you do the other? So, let’s talk about the no-fly zone. The no-fly zone, it sounds like a military concept but it is for humanitarian purpose, to allow people to seek safe haven or to exit the country if they choose to. And what the Biden administration has said is, we are not going to use U.S. or NATO troops to do that. And this is a tough call, but I think — I do think it is the right call to not use U.S. or NATO troops in or over Ukraine, to wage battle against Russia. Because if that happens, this war will escalate to an all-Europe war. There’s just no doubt about it. So, the first thing is, we’re not going to use U.S. or NATO troops over or in Ukraine. But the second ask, was the ask for aircraft. And in this one, I’m a little different than some of the categorical statements of the White House on this. Vladimir Putin knows we are flowing military aid into Ukraine. We just passed a bill last week, $6.5 billion of military aid to Ukraine. It’s ammunition, it’s anti-tank weapons. It’s surface-to-air missiles to knock aircraft out of the sky. They’ve been using them successfully. It’s not like Vladimir Putin is going to say, oh, that’s OK. But now, you’ve given us a plane that, you know — that’s just unacceptable. I think what we need to do is give the Ukrainians the ability to defend themselves with the weapons that will be most lethal and most successful. Now, here’s a challenge with aircraft. The Ukrainians aren’t trained to fly the aircraft the United States would have. So, we could give them aircraft, they wouldn’t be helpful. It would be better to give drones or other weapon systems they can use. Other nations might transfer aircraft. But again, it’s not like you take a Polish MiG and give it to Ukrainian defense forces and they can immediately fly it. Even if they trained on MiGs in the past, they would have to alter these aircrafts to enable them to fly. What we want to do and our military and Ukraine defense forces have a very good communication is take this $6.5 million that we just voted for and make sure it’s military equipment that can go to Ukraine that they can use right now to defend themselves. They’re being so heroic and brave. Let’s give them tools they can use right now.

MARTIN: But, you know, we talked with retired lieutenant colonel, Alexander Vindman, on the program last week, whom you know.

KAINE: Yes. I have high regard for him.

MARTIN: He says that the administration is overthinking this. That events on the ground are moving quickly, or also, the, you know, former ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, who you also know has been speaking out lately and she says that the events on the ground are moving so quickly, that if the people who oppose this invasion don’t do more, that it’s going to be all for naught. It doesn’t matter how much sort of, you know, humanitarian aid or how much money is approved if events on the ground don’t change quickly. What do you say to that?

KAINE: Well, I have high regard for both of them. And, you know, I’m not going to say that they’re wrong, but I will say that there’s a lot of folks up here. Look, I have senators who are aviators, who’ve been military aviators, and they question whether, look, you can give Ukrainians planes that they can’t use. But it’s not just plug and play. It’s not like, we’ll just give them this and they can immediately use them. So, I think relying upon the defense forces of Ukraine and their good dialogue with the American military, the sizable aid we’ve already sent and the more that we’re sending, that to me seems reasonable and it also seems reasonable to want to avoid an escalation into an all-Europe war.

MARTIN: And, of course, on Tuesday President Biden signed into law this package that includes — what is it — $13.6 billion in military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine.

KAINE: Yes.

MARTIN: Something that you have been advocating. Is this (INAUDIBLE) money allocated to the right things, in your opinion?

KAINE: Yes. So, the $6.5 billion in humanitarian aid is really important because we need to assist Ukrainians in nations like — we need to assist Poland, which has as many Ukrainian refugees now as the entire population of the Warsaw metro area. So, we need to use these humanitarian dollars to assists Ukrainian refugees. President Biden has granted Ukrainian a TPS, temporary protected status, in the U.S. so they come here. That’s good. We’re already working on that. On the military side, just to give you orders of magnitude. So, $6.5 billion, how big is that? From 2014 to end of 2021, we did $3 billion of military aid to Ukraine. $1 billion just in 2021. So, this doubles what we had done for the previous seven years by a factor of six, more than what we did last year. You’ll remember, you mentioned Colonel Vindman, what he blew the whistle on was not just President Trump threatening President Zelenskyy but withholding military aid to Ukraine that Congress had appropriated. President Trump violated the law to withhold military aid to Ukraine. We are flowing the aid to Ukraine now. Is the $6.5 million of military aid — it’s actually slightly more than that, is it spent on exactly the right things? This is where I really rely on the Pentagon, and they do have great dialogue with the leadership of Ukrainian Defense Forces, we’re trying to make sure that what we get them they can use. And, look, the evidence from the first three weeks suggests that they are using what the West is supplying them in an extremely effective way. It’s not just the United States, it’s nations like Germany and Sweden and Finland that traditionally do not supply weapons into a conflict, but they’re doing it because they understand the treachery of Vladimir Putin.

MARTIN: I guess the question is, however impressive numbers sound and however impressive the speed, which — with which the American government has responded in terms of the numbers, is it enough to change the dynamics right now?

KAINE: Michel, I think it is, but I don’t think we’re going to be happy with the speed of it. I think the dynamics are changing dramatically. Vladimir Putin underestimated Ukrainian resistance. He underestimated western unity and he deeply underestimated how painful these sanctions could be on the Russian economy. He spent years building up reserves against the prospect of sanctions, and then the sanctions we put on froze all of those reserves so that Russia can’t use them. He never expected that would happen. Why would he underestimate all of these things? It’s because he’s extremely out of touch, surrounded by yes men who only tell him what he wants to hear. He’s losing his worth. That’s driving had him to desperation. But it’s also showing this coordinated and combined western pressure is working. So, we just need to keep amping it up. And I can’t tell you that $6.8 billion of military aid is going to be the thing that changes the trajectory, but I believe that U.S. and western support combined with Ukraine resolve is going to be victorious here.

MARTIN: And look, to the question of refugees. You said that Ukraine has – – Ukrainian refugees have been granted temporary protected status. I understand that that protects people who are already here.

KAINE: That’s correct.

MARTIN: Does it open the door to more Ukrainians with American ties coming to the United States?

KAINE: I believe there will be. The temporary protected status is just one way of assisting people in tough times. There are refugee and other admissions, and I am urging the administration to take steps to open the aperture. The administration, just yesterday, granted TPS status to Afghans who are in the United States, which I had been urged them to do. And I believe we will find the path for more Ukrainians to come to the United States, too. But for right now, I think the urgent need with the humanitarian dollars that we allocated is to support border nations, especially our ally Poland who are really dealing in a most generous and heroic way with this real avalanche of Ukraine immigrants.

MARTIN: And, of course, you know this has raised a lot of, I don’t know how else to put this, you know, feelings among people who remember how very recently Polish authorities treated refugees from Africa, North Africa and Middle Easter trying to cross.

KAINE: Yes.

MARTIN: The brutality, the inhumanity, the disrespect, which (INAUDIBLE). And I am just interested to know whether the administration has had any conversations with Polish authorities about that? The contrast is very hard to ignore. And I want — there have been conversations about that with this —

KAINE: Yes. Michel, you’re absolutely right. And look, we could go back to the entire conversation we had. We’re not providing military assistance or humanitarian assistance at this level to try to ease suffering in Ethiopia. We’re not — nor are we paying attention to it. We’re not having addresses and congressional meetings, bicameral meetings to talk about what to do about the vast humanitarian crisis in Yemen. We’re not doing this to talk about the persecution of Rohingyas in Myanmar. And — so, I have — I do have a sense of sadness about this that I’m glad we’re doing everything we can do for Ukrainians and want to do more, but I often think our attention gets paid to, you know, European folks who look like, you know, me, and not people from other parts of the world that they don’t get the attention. They don’t get the humanitarian aid, they don’t get the military support, they don’t get the press time. And you’re right. Poland’s recent history — hey, our recent history. I mean, know, we got a lot of folks at the border who want to have an orderly process for determining whether they should get a refugee or asylum status here and their cases are backed up forever and we’re moving quickly to do things positively for Ukraine. Now, I will say about this administration. They’ve granted TPS status to Afghans. They’ve extended TPS status to Hondurans and Salvadorans that the previous administration wanted to terminate those programs. So, these are big, tough, challenging Ing issues. I think the administration here is trying to be even handed, but I don’t think we as humans are as even handed in our attention to these crises as we should be.

MARTIN: What do you make of reports that Russia asked China for military aid? I mean, China denies this. And there are conflicting recent reports. I mean, one report says that China’s attempted neutrality, an interest in peace talks. There are just conflicting reports about this. But what is your assessment of this and what will the administration and Congress do if China does get involved?

KAINE: I’m not revealing any classified information. And my answer to your question, I am sure Russia asked China for military aid. That was, you know, one of the purposes of this Potemkin village, 5,000-word pledge of friendship that Putin and Xi Jinping did before the Beijing Winter Olympics. It was mostly Putin going to China to try to find a friend that he could rely on, and I am sure Russia has asked for military assistance. So, China denies it. But I’m sure there has been an ask. I imagine what China is trying to do is having hugged Vladimir Putin close, and now, seeing him branded as a war criminal for actions on the ground that justify that label, China is really wondering whether their close relationship with Russia is inflicting deep reputational damage to China. What’s in it for China to be connected to this bloodthirsty set of atrocities? I don’t see anything in it for them. And so, I’m sure they are kind of trying to calculate and the Biden administration has warned them, you should not be flowing arms to Russia and getting involved in this. It doesn’t involve you. And I’m sure China is rethinking the wisdom of their “partnership” with Vladimir Putin.

MARTIN: So, before we let you go, Senator, hope you don’t mind this kind of a big pivot here. I want to ask how you’re doing? I mean, you are experiencing long COVID symptoms. You’ve talked publicly about this. How are you? How are you doing?

KAINE: Michel, I’m doing fine. I mean, the way I describe it, I got COVID in March of 2020, and non-standard symptoms. It was like a bunch of allergic reactions at once. But one of my symptoms was every nerve ending in my body just started to tingle, like it had five cups of coffee, and it just hadn’t gone away. So, I was then symptom-free. Every other symptom went away by mid-April 2020. But it’s been two years now and I’m been vaccinated and boosted but still have every nerve ending just sort of talking to me nonstop. I started to talk about it in hearings. I’m on the Health Committee, Health Education Committee, and I started to talk about it when we have hearings with doctors Fauci and Walensky. And I’ll tell you why. I was running into a lot of people who had long COVID symptoms but they were being told by their doctors, oh, it’s probably nothing. Oh, you know, what, it’s probably anxiety or depression. Why don’t I prescribe you, you know, an anti- depression medication? And the person will say, well, wait a minute. I’ve lost my sense of taste or smell. I’m a happy person. I’m not depressed. But I’m just tell you, this is what’s going on? So, so many people disbelieved that I thought, well, if I share my experience and say, hey, I believe you. I’m fortunate that my symptoms are weird, not debilitating, but I believe you. And then, now, doctors Fauci and Walensky know that I’m always going to ask them, what’s going on with research? What are you finding out? If you don’t know causes or you at least finding cures? I’m really glad that we’re trying to put attention on this issue, because it’s going to be a long consequence. When COVID’s in the rearview mirror and it’s not in the review mirror yet, but one day it will be, but this long COVID that could affect between 15 percent and 20 percent, not all serious, some like me, minor symptoms but others very serious, this is going to be a huge issue for our health care system, for work places, for just general quality of life of our friends and family and neighbors.

MARTIN: But you also have a — from a policy standpoint, going back to your job, is that you introduced legislation that would increase funding into research for long COVID. On the other hand, this week, the White House says, U.S. will run out of money to fight the pandemic if Congress doesn’t pass the COVID funding bill. So, what is the thinking there about that?

KAINE: I think we’re going to find a COVID package. I’ve talked to Republicans there was a little bit of a babble how should it be paid for? We can solve that. But I’ve talked to a lot of Republicans who want to do this. They want the administration to answer a few more questions before they just sign the $3 billion check, or whatever it is. And so, questions are, what is the stockpile we have of vaccines? What is the stockpile we have of tests, PPE? Tell us our baseline is and then, we’ll talk to you about what the numbers should be. But I have colleagues who I think are ready to do this, and we’ll put a vote on the floor about it soon.

MARTIN: And the long COVID research, do you think that that’s going to be part of this package?

KAINE: Yes. We put a lot of money in the American Rescue Plan a year ago for COVID research. And I believe the omni that we just passed last week has additional money for COVID research. And that research (INAUDIBLE) is very bipartisan. We always have a relatively — I say, relatively easy time finding bipartisan support for research dollars. And so, there is significant research going forward. And what I tell long COVID sufferers is, you know, don’t despair. Hang in and share your symptoms because if we can figure how to deal with long COVID symptoms, we’ll probably understand a lot more about how to treat the after-effects of Lyme disease. There’s a lot of illnesses and viruses that have these with consequences that follow them, or chronic, or fibromyalgia, or chronic pain system, we might be able to figure out ways to reduce a lot of conditions that people have. So, I encourage folks dealing with long COVID to share your symptoms with physicians. Part of my bill is to try to gather data about patient experiences because the research we’re going to do is not just going to help long COVID sufferers, I think it’s going to help a lot of other people, too.

MARTIN: Senator Tim Kaine, thank you so much for talking with us today.

KAINE: You bet, Michel. Glad to.