Israel-Gaza on Campus: How Dartmouth is Fostering Dialogue

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: As we mentioned earlier, tension and division mount in most corners of the world over this. University campuses in the U.S. have become one of the focal points, from Ivy Leagues to public schools and colleges. Five recent incidents at Stanford University are under investigation as potential hate crimes, according to the school. But, our next guest, Dartmouth College Chair of Jewish Studies, Susannah Heschel, and chair of Middle Eastern Studies there, Tarek El-Ariss, wanted to create a forum for students to discuss their positions and their thoughts. Michel Martin speaks to both professors about that response and what it achieved.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MICHEL MARTIN, JOURNALIST: Thanks, Christiane. Professor El-Ariss, Professor Heschel, thank you both so much for joining us today.

TAREK EL-ARISS, CHAIR OF MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: Thank you.

SUSANNAH HESCHEL, CHAIR OF JEWISH STUDIES PROGRAM, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: Thank you.

MARTIN: As we are speaking, we are about a month after these terrible events that have consumed so much of our attention, this terrible, you know, attack, by Hamas in Southern Israel. And if I could just ask you briefly to take me back to that moment. Professor El-Ariss, do you remember how you found out what had happened and what went through your mind?

EL-ARISS: Well, I was in Cairo when this happened and I was following as the events unfold on the Arabic channels and so on. And I — you know, I mean I’m originally from Lebanon but I also lived in New York on 9/11. I mean, it was one of those moments where I felt this is really a horrible, horrible event. I immediately got on the phone with, you know, with Professor Heschel and we said, this is really — this is not just any other attack or, you know, another episode that, that we see a lot of. This is something that is going to open a portal into a form of violence that we’re not — we haven’t like this. And immediately we talked and said, OK, we need to create a forum for this. We need to create a space where people can come and talk about this and engage with this and think about this. This is going to, you know, capture people’s minds. I mean, this is going to really make people want to — it’s going to consume people, not only in the Middle East, but also obviously, you know, in the U.S. as well. And whenever there are diasporas identifying with that part of the world in some way.

MARTIN: It sounds as though both — for both of you, your immediate instinct is, we have to create a forum to talk about this. Professor Heschel, talked to me about that. Because look, it has to be said, that was not every scholar’s first instinct. I mean, some scholars were, you know, organizing rallies. Some scholars were — you know, say more, if you would, about the conversation that you and Professor El-Ariss had.

HESCHEL: I was extremely upset, as you can imagine, but I have a professional obligation as a scholar to my university and to my work. And so, we spoke on the phone. We decided we would have two academic forums at the Dartmouth College campus and set those up. I was one of them, and the others were three other scholars who are teaching in Middle Eastern studies. I have to say, the Jewish studies and Middle Eastern studies have had a long and very fruitful collaboration on campus. So, we have relationships. We coach each courses. I’m co-teaching the course with Professor Jonathan Smolin from Middle Eastern studies this term on the 1967 Arab Israeli war. And so, he spoke. And then, we have another course on Israel Palestine taught — co-taught by Bernard Avishai and Ezzedine Fishere from government. So, we offered this as a panel to demonstrate to the college, students and faculty, how we come together in this moment. We model for them what it is to be a scholar, what it is to be an academic and an academic institution to discuss the issues thoughtfully, not to look for condemnations or to speak about emotions, but to think in context, what can we as scholars contribute to the analysis of this moment and also demonstrate how we should think in this moment. How should we be responding as academics. And that, we felt, also what we succeeded in doing really at Dartmouth was to keep all sides together as a community of academics, which is exactly what we do in our classroom.

MARTIN: One of the reasons we called you is that we saw an article in the “Forward” titled “Many universities fumbled reactions to Hamas’ attack. Here’s how Dartmouth got it right.” Did the administration play any role in this? Because as we’ve seen in a number of other universities, you know, university presidents have been heavily criticized for not speaking or not saying enough or not saying something soon enough.

HESCHEL: Absolutely. We have a new president of Dartmouth, President Sian Beilock, who immediately said, we have to do something. And she asked the dean of faculty, Elizabeth Smith, to call me, and she did. And I told her Monday morning early, we’ve already made plans to do something. So, the leadership at Dartmouth has been very strong and very much in support of what we are doing as faculty, and that has made a huge difference as well.

MARTIN: Tell me about that first forum. What was it like?

HESCHEL: We recognize that students, faculty, staff, the community were all very upset, frightened, worried and angry, and Dartmouth does offer 24-hour a day mental health counseling for students, for example, and we emphasize that. We also have chaplains to speak to students and to faculty, and that’s also important, but our job at these forums was to come together as academics, just demonstrate what we do in our classrooms. When we co-teach a course, Professor El-Ariss and I co-teach a course called Arabs, Jews and Modernity, we have students who are Jewish, Christian, Muslim from all over the world, Palestinian students. We come together in the classroom to understand and work together, to think through the problems. And the classroom becomes a place where students work together and form friendships and think together. So, we don’t polarize, and that’s what we wanted to achieve with these forums. And that actually did happen. And of course, there are students who are very upset emotionally. I was too. I still am very upset, but that’s not, as a professional, what I bring to my classroom, that classroom is a different kind of space. It’s not a space to rant and rave and do agitation and propaganda and demagoguery. Classroom is a place for scholarship.

MARTIN: Professor El-Ariss, when you did get back to campus and started participating in these conversations, what are some of the things that you heard?

EL-ARISS: The students started coming to my office, and I opened my office to them to hear what they’re feeling, what they’re thinking and to support them and to be there with them. And also, as Professor Heschel mentioned, we have students from different, you know, backgrounds and different political, you know, views positions that are in our classes, and they come to our classes because they feel like we are able to maintain a conversation where their views are respected. And also, we’re not imposing any of our views on them. And we try to encourage them to form their own perspective when they look at how Jews and Arabs work together throughout the 19th century in the Middle East and other parts of the world, how they defended each other’s causes. I mean, it’s a history of common struggle as well, sometimes in relation to, you know, European colonialism or various forms of biases. So, we also, in our work, try to present different kind of history of living together that — and students come to this from — you know, Jewish students, Palestinian students, and they know each other and they come with us on our study abroad. There is a connection between them. So, when these things happen, they are still talking. And this is important. I asked the students, are you still — you know, how so and so? You know, I’m asking the Jewish student about how Palestinian student is doing, you know, and vice versa. And I think it’s important that we play that role, that we play, you know, engage intellectually, explain the complexity of histories and conflicts, but at the same time, to maintain a community of care. We are here to support them. We are here to listen to them. And we want them to support each other as well.

MARTIN: One of the things, you know, you hear from students who are Muslim or Palestinian or Arab, you know, or all three is that they feel that they have been silenced. They feel that they can’t express their, you know, legitimate, you know, fear, anger, concern. I mean, on the one hand, you have the Jewish students who are deeply afraid and legitimately so. And then, you also have Arab and Palestinian and Muslim students who are deeply afraid for different reasons. And I can imagine where they might look to you to be a spokesman for them. And I’m just interested in your take on all this.

EL-ARISS: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I engage them and we create forums for them, also to go to the students in their own comfortable safe spaces so that people can come and talk to them and ask them and see how not only what they think, but also how they feel. So, we’re very, very — you know, very much doing this. But I think also there is a frustration. It’s understandable that there is frustration that the political resolution of this conflict has not happened. The emphasis has been on like security measures and containment and management rather than a real political solution. And I think it’s important for us also as academics, we understand the frustration that the political solution through talks, you know, historically has fumbled, but also we need to — what else do we have, I mean, for us, other than conversation, other than engagement, other than engaging the other and trying to show the other side your perspective, and do it in a way that brings them in rather than alienate them at the outset?

MARTIN: Has anybody criticized you for not being angry enough, Professor El-Ariss? I mean, I’m just curious if anybody has criticized you for not being outraged enough under —

EL-ARISS: I mean, I lived 15 years in a civil war situation under all kinds of bombs. And it took me a long time to deal with that and deal with the anger, but also to transform the anger into something more constructive. And — but I also see the frustration in the students who feel like they want to do something and they can’t do anything. And they feel — but it is also — like there is a culture out there that’s expecting students at the university of freshman and so on to somehow have the power to change human rights situation or to intervene in a political situation, and that’s not fair. That’s a huge burden on that student, and that’s crushing in some way. And part of what we have to do, I want to, on the one hand, alleviate that burden to act and to also — and say, I understand the frustration and — but also, I need to calm them down, make them listen and also try to explain to them a larger picture and bring them into a larger picture and then bring them also to talk about people who feel that burden on the other side or from the other perspective. And if we cut those ties, if we create those walls that separate, say, OK, I won’t talk to the others camp because this is what I believe and it is absolute. Then, where do we go from here? I mean, would we still have education the way we understand it? I mean, this is how I’m trained as a humanist, as someone who’s invested in talking to the other person. I mean, I cannot just simply say, I won’t talk, this is my view, and that’s it, take it or leave it. I will do anything to achieve my views. This is not also — this is not my mission as an educator.

MARTIN: Professor Heschel, I just want to ask you the same thing. I mean, do people have any — have — has anyone said this to you, that you should be on this side or that you’re not outraged enough? Has anyone said that to you?

HESCHEL: I’m sure people think it. And I know that I have colleagues in — at other institutions who’ve said that a Jewish studies professor should represent the Jewish studies or the Jewish community, the Jewish Federation on campus and so on. That’s not the role of an academic. And I want my classroom to be a place where all students feel comfortable. People will sometimes ask me, well, how many of your students are Jewish? When I have a big class. I don’t know. I don’t know who’s Jewish and who isn’t. And why should I want to know that? We’re here to study together. And I have students from all parts of the world, students from China and Pakistan and Vietnam. And so — and they’re interested. And I want them to come and feel perfectly comfortable and equal to every other student in the classroom.

MARTIN: One of the things I’m hearing from you is that several things came to play here. You had long standing prior relationships of mutual respect. OK. You had a history of not just working together, but being very clear about your role in a time of crisis. And you’ve also kind of have deep friendships among yourselves. And I’m just wondering, why is this so hard? It just seems that a number of these sort of prominent universities that things seem to have kind of spun out of control. I mean, you have kids sending hate messages. You have kids tearing down posters of other people’s — you know, posters, amplifying the people who’ve been taken hostage and why does it seem so hard in some of these places? Do you have a theory about that?

HESCHEL: Yes. Well, this is something we’re going to be thinking about for a long time to come.

MARTIN: Yes.

HESCHEL: What brought us to this point? And there are many factors. Institutional leadership is one. We have a great leader who knew what to do. And of course, the friendships and the relationships can’t just plunge right in. Why is it that so many Jewish studies and Middle Eastern studies programs at different universities are at war with each other? They don’t talk to each other. We collaborate in courses that are cross listed, co-taught, programs that we organized together and so on. So, we’ve been doing this for a long time. Sometimes it may be uncomfortable. Of course, we may hear things from a guest speaker that we don’t like, but we don’t bring in guest speakers as mouthpieces for ourselves, we bring in speakers who will challenge us. And that’s what we do in our classroom. I give students something to read and I’ll say, well, now, what would you say in response to this? What’s your argument? How do you formulate? What’s the evidence? What’s wrong with this article and what’s right with it? And if you don’t like it, say something, but say it in an academic, intelligent way that has warrants for the proof. So those are some of the factors, and there are other elements as well. So, a student at one of the forums said, is Israel an apartheid state? And the response was, look, first of all, it doesn’t really fit the definition. But you know, another response is to say, we’re not here to judge, we’re here to understand. I’m not a judge in a courtroom. I’m not a jury. I’m an academic. I want to analyze. I want to think. What is the purpose of say defining something as apartheid or defining an incident, which may be terrible? The bombing in Gaza, killing of people is a terrible thing. Why do I have to call it genocide? Can I just say, this is terrible? When Hamas attacked Israeli civilians, it is terrible. It’s devastating. 1,400 people murdered. Innocent civilians, but I want to analyze. I want to think it through. How did we get to this point? And I don’t want to simply fit it into a prior narrative, whether it’s colonial narrative or something else. And that’s what I think we were stuck. Many of us, in our academic work, we’re stuck in predetermined narratives. We’re stuck in what the philosopher, Carl Hempel, called covering laws. And we need to break out of that and think in more expansive terms and analyze more carefully and creatively and also think about what we are trying to accomplish, not to label, not to judge, but actually to move forward because we have — ultimately, as academics, we have a commitment to humanity, to human lives.

MARTIN: But Professor El-Ariss, I’ll ask you this, but these are kids. I mean, some of them are kids. I mean, some of the reason that they go to college is to figure out who they are. I mean, overdoing it, you know, doing too much, saying too much, saying the wrong thing, that’s part of growing up, on the one hand, right? And I’m just —

EL-ARISS: I mean, you know, the students who said, Israel apartheid state, but he said it in such a respectful way. He said, what do you think if I would say Israel is an — and thank you for answering my question. I mean, this is what I retained from that also, it is also the way it is not what you say, it is the way you say it. And it is also to have an environment that allows you to say what you want to say without completely getting rid — cancelling the other. You know, disagreement doesn’t mean an erasure. And that’s what’s very important to hold on to. I can disagree with you, I can have my strong feeling about things and say them, but I have to find a way where I’m not – – you know, completely not letting the other person speak also and express their view or their opinion and their feeling as well. So, I think our role is really to create that space where one — feeling one voice doesn’t cancel the other.

MARTIN: Professor Tarek El-Ariss, Professor Susannah Heschel, thank you so much for talking with us today. I believe that your words will be a balm to many people. Thank you.

HESCHEL: Thank you.

EL-ARISS: Thank you.