January 24, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> CLINTON DIDN'T LISTEN.

WILL TRUMP, WILL MARCO RUBIO?

THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO SEE.

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PLEDGES TO BE THE MOST PRO- ISRAEL IN HISTORY.

I ASKED FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL WHO RESIGNED OVER U.S. POLICY ON ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA.

>>> THEN -- >> WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY?

WHY CAN'T YOU ENJOY LIFE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> "HARD TRUTHS", THE NEW VERTICALLY ACCLAIMED FILM BY BRITISH DIRECTOR MIKE LEIGH.

HE JOINS ME IN STUDIO WITH START MARIANNE JEAN-BAPTISTE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A GAP BETWEEN WHAT KIDS DO IN SCHOOL AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REAL WORLD AND THAT GOD IS A COUSIN.

>> MICHAEL SANDEL TRAIN IT SPEAKS TO AUTHORS JENNY ANDERSON ABOUT EDUCATION IN OUR CHANGING WORLD.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS , CANDACE KING WEIR.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS WEEK ONE OF TRUMP 2.0 WRAPS UP, A NEW ERA OF AMERICAN DIPLOMACY BEGINS BE THE 47th PRESIDENT LOST NO TIME IN IMPLEMENTING HIS VISION FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD, WITH A FLURRY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS ON EVERYTHING FROM CLIMATE TO IMMIGRATION.

INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT, ONE FORMER AMBASSADOR REPORTEDLY DESCRIBES, "DEEP DESPAIR," OVER TRUMP LOYALISTS BEING PROMOTED REGARDLESS OF AGE AND EXPERIENCE, WITH A WAVE OF LONG SERVING SENIOR DISC DIPLOMATS BEING FIRED OR RETIRING.

AS WARS CONTINUE TO RAGE IN UKRAINE AND THE MIDDLE EAST, MARCO RUBIO WAS SWORN IN AS SECRETARY OF STATE, GIVEN AN INDICATION OF WHAT TRUMPS STANCE ON ISRAEL MIGHT LOOK LIKE.

HERE HE IS AT HIS CONFIRMATION HEARING.

>> I AM CONFIDENT SAYING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION WILL CONTINUE TO BE PERHAPS THE MOST PRO-ISRAEL ADMINISTRATION IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> THIS ALL COMES AS A TENUOUS CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA IS HOLDING BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS AFTER 14 MONTHS OF WAR.

THE DEATH TOLL STANDS AT MORE THAN 47,000.

JOSH PAUL WAS ONE OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO RESIGN OVER U.S. POLICY IN THAT WAR AND HE IS 20 ME FROM WASHINGTON TO DISCUSS WHAT THE SEISMIC SHIFT MEANS FOR AMERICA'S STANDING IN THE WORLD.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, JOSH PAUL.

I START BY ASKING YOU TO DESCRIBE WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEEING?

THAT IS A WAVE OF RESIGNATIONS, RETIREMENT, PUSHING CERTAIN DIPLOMATS OUT OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS CHANGEOVER AS USUAL AND HOW MUCH OF THAT IS IDEOLOGICAL?

>> YES, THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

I THINK WE DO SEE A TRANSITION WITH EVERY INCOMING ADMINISTRATION, A SHIFT OF COURSE IN POLICIES THAT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION, THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT HAS BEEN DIFFERENT SO FAR IS THAT ON DAY ONE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ASKED A NUMBER OF SENIOR CAREER DIPLOMATS TO RESIGN, NOT JUST TO STEP DOWN FROM THEIR APPOINTMENTS TO CERTAIN ROLES WITHIN THE STATE DEPARTMENT BUT TO BE DIFFERENT.. THAT IS UNUSUAL.

YOU ARE LOSING, THEREBY, A TRANCHE, A GENERATION OF DIPLOMATIC EXPERIENCE.

AND, THIS IS SOMETHING WE SAW DURING THE PREVIOUS TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS WELL WHEN THERE WAS A HOLLOWING OUT, TO SOME EXTENT, OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND A SIGNIFICANT LOSS OF EXPERIENCE.

IN FACT, IN SPEAKING WITH COLLEAGUES IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, MY UNDERSTANDING IS AS MUCH AS 40% OF THE CURRENT WORKFORCE ON THE CIVIL SERVICE SIDE OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT ARE NEW SINCE 2020.

SO, I THINK THERE WILL BE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING THROUGH A TRANSITION TO BEGIN WITH FOR THE FIRST TIME AND A LOT OF QUESTIONS BEING ASKED, PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF SOME OF THE POLICY DIRECTIONS RESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO BE SETTING OF WHERE ARE WE ARE GOING.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU.

ONE OF THE THINGS HE DID WITH HIS FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDERS WAS TO SUSPEND A SICKLY TRADITIONAL FOREIGN AID ASSISTANCE, AMERICAN FOREIGN ASSISTANCE DOLLARS WHILE THEY CAN "EVALUATE WHETHER THOSE PROGRAMS THAT GET ASSISTANCE ARE ALIGNED WITH IDEOLOGICAL GOALS."

I WANT YOU TO REACT TO DAVID MILLER, WHO, IN "FOREIGN POLICY," SAID "STATUS BUT WITH MY STAFF EDUCATED AT ELITE UNIVERSITIES AND MILITARY ACADEMIES.

THEY PROFESS TO HOLD TRUE TO A BREDESEN ACTIVITY IN A MANNER THAT TRIGGERS THE PERSON AND HAS CRAFTED FOREIGN POLICY INITIATIVES PERTAINING TO ALLIANCE BUILDING AND FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS THAT JAR WITH TRUMP'S AMERICA FIRST BELIEFS."

IS THAT A CRITICISM OF STATE OR IS IT JUST SHOWING WHITE IT ANTAGONIZES TRUMP?

>> SO, I THINK THE NOTION THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN GOOD COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, FIRST OF ALL, ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO SERVE RESIDENT TRUMP IS ABSURD.

HIS OWN NOMINEE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO BE YOU AND AMBASSADOR, ELISE STEFANIK, WENT TO HARVARD.

I WOULD NOTE FOREIGN POLICY INTIMACY TAKE EXPERTISE.

THEY TAKE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE LIVING AND WORKING OVERSEAS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, IN OTHER CULTURES.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT DOES TAKE TIME TO BUILD INTO CREW AND IS A BENEFIT FOR THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS A WONDERFUL THING THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED THEIR LIVES TO BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS AROUND THE WORLD ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY COMMITTED TO THEIR SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY, TO THE PRESIDENT, AND TO THE CONSTITUTION.

I KNOW THAT IS THE CASE ACROSS THE BOARD, REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER THEIR OWN PERSONAL IDEOLOGY MIGHT BE.

>> OBVIOUSLY, YOU REMEMBER BACK THEN IN WNET TRUMP 1.0, "DEEP STATE" WAS TRIGGERED BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WHERE YOU FIRST HEARD THAT STATEMENT AND THAT CHARACTERIZATION BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK MARCO RUBIO WILL BE LIKE AS SECRETARY OF STATE.

HE IS, EFFECTIVELY, A MAINSTREAM, TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN.

IS HE, DO YOU THINK, GOING TO BE ALL IN ON TRUMP FOREIGN POLICY?

OR, ARE THERE GOING TO BE PROBLEMS, LIKE WITH REX TILLERSON, WHO EVENTUALLY RESIGNED?

>> I THINK FIRST WE NEED TO CLARIFY WHAT TRUMP FOREIGN POLICY ACTUALLY IS.

WE HAVE SEEN A CONTRADICTION COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN THE RESIDENTS INAUGURAL ADDRESS, IN WHICH HE SAID HE WANTS TO BE A, "PEACEMAKER" HE WANTS TO PUT AN END TO WHAT HE CALLED, "THE CONTINUING CATALOG OF CRISES OVERSEAS."

AND HIS DIRECTION TO MARCO RUBIO TO PUT AMERICAN INTERESTS FIRST.

CONTRASTED WITH SOME OF THE ACTIONS HE HAS TAKEN ON DAY ONE THAT YOU REFERRED TO, AS WELL AS SOME OF THE STATEMENTS BY, FOR EXAMPLE, U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N. U.N. INCOMING ELISE STEFANIK OR, FOR THAT MATTER, MARCO RUBIO.

ELISE STEFANIK STATING SHE BELIEVES ISRAEL HAS A BIBLICAL RIGHT TO ALL OF THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND MARCO RUBIO TALKING ABOUT THIS UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL.

THE QUESTION THERE IS, IS THAT PUTTING AMERICA FIRST?

WHERE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GOING TO LAND ON THIS AND OTHER THORNY ISSUES?

I DON'T THINK WE CAN REALLY SAY WHAT ROLE MARCO RUBIO WILL PLAY UNTIL WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT DIRECTION HIS BOSS IS GOING IN.

>> SO, BECAUSE YOU HAVE RAISED ISRAEL AND YOU WERE PARTICULARLY CENTRAL TO A LOT OF THE DISSENT AROUND THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY ON THE CURRENT WAR AND THE CRISIS THERE, HOW DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO TAKE FORWARD THE CURRENT U.S. POLICY?

>> SO, I THINK THIS IS REALLY ONE OF THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE, THE CONFLICT, THE ATTACKS BY ISRAEL ON GAZA, THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST WAS ONE OF THE DEFINING ISSUES OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, ONE OF THE DEFINING FAILURES OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S COMES TO OFFICE WITH HE AND HIS TEAM HAVEN'T PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN GETTING TO THE CEASE- FIRE THAT WE ARE AT NOW.

I THINK THE QUESTION NEEDS TO BE ASKED, AND THE FIRST TEST WILL BE, DOES THE CEASE-FIRE HOLD?

DO WE GET TO PHASE TWO OF THE PLAINTIFF CEASE-FIRE OR DO WE SLIP BACK INTO CONFLICT?

I THINK THE DEVELOPMENT ALREADY IN THE WEST BANK, FOR EXAMPLE WITH ISRAEL'S ISSUANCE OF EVACUATION ORDERS TO PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK IS VERY CONCERNING.

THERE IS ALSO, I THINK, A TENSION WITHIN THE CIRCLES AROUND PRESIDENT TRUMP'S.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE A GROWING NUMBER OF AMERICANS, INCLUDING IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BASE AND A COMMON SENSE -- WE NEED TO REEVALUATE OUR POLICY TOWARD ISRAEL.

THIS NO LONGER MAKES SENSE, IF IT EVER DID, TO PROVIDE ISRAEL WITH UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT.

WE NEED TO START THINKING ABOUT CONDITIONS THAT ALIGN ISRAEL'S ACTIONS WITH AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

OR, IS HE GOING TO LISTEN TO ELISE STEFANIK AND STEPHEN MILLER?

>> STEPHEN MILLER CLEARLY HAS, AND HISTORICALLY HAS HAD, TRUMP'S EAR.

THAT IS GOING TO BE A VERY INTERESTING SITUATION.

LET'S TABLE DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

THE INVESTIGATIVE MAGAZINE, ProPUBLICA, HAS JUST WRITTEN A REPORT, HE DEEPLY REPORTED ONE, CALLED "AU OF EMPTY THREATS AND A SMOKESCREEN POLICY, HOW THE STATE DEPARTMENT LET ISRAEL GET AWAY WITH HORRORS IN GAZA."

AND ANOTHER LINE, "TIME AND AGAIN, ISRAEL CROSSED REDLINES WITHOUT CHANGING COURSE IN A MEANINGFUL WAY."

SO, I KNOW YOU AGREE WITH THAT BECAUSE THAT IS WHY YOU RESIGNED.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE, THAT IS JUST GOING TO CONTINUE?

HOW DO YOU THINK, WHY DO YOU THINK OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, FOR INSTANCE, ALOUD, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AND "PROPUBLICA"'S PERSPECTIVE, THE LACEY ACT NOT TO BE FULLY RESPECTED?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT WASN'T JUST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THE LEAHY LAW HAS BEEN ON THE BOOKS SINCE 1997 AND NO ONE HAS APPLIED IT PROPERLY TO ISRAEL.

THE WHOLE PROCESS THAT WAS CREATED WAS EXCEPTIONAL FOR ISRAEL.

WHAT WE FACE IS ACTUALLY A DEEP STRUCTURAL PROBLEM, A DEEP SYSTEMIC PROBLEM WITHIN U.S.

POLITICS THAT IS NOT GOING TO SHIFT, NOT GOING TO CHANGE OVERNIGHT WITH ANY ONE PRESIDENT, WITH ANY ONE CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATION.

THIS IS SOMETHING AMERICANS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK AT SHIFTING FOR MANY ELECTION CYCLES AND MANY YEARS TO COME TO BE A PART OF THAT, TO DRIVE THAT CHANGE IS WHY I AND ONE OF THE OTHERS WHO RESIGNED FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FORMED A NEW POLICY THIS IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS DEDICATED TO SHIFTING AMERICAN POLICIES AND POLITICS SO THAT THEY ALIGN WITH OUR INTERESTS AND WITH OUR VALUES WHEN IT COMES TO U.S. POLICY TOWARD ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

THAT IS THE ORGANIZATION THAT WAS PUT OUT AND ABORT "NOT IN AMERICA'S INTEREST," AND FLEMING AND ABBY WHITE OUR CURRENT POLICY OF UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL ISN'T IN AMERICA'S INTEREST.

I THINK THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DEMONSTRATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN ITS WILLINGNESS TO STEP ASIDE FROM AMERICAN LAW, TO SET ASIDE U.S.

INTERESTS, TO SET ASIDE U.S.

STATUTES.

I THINK WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS SET A VERY CONCERNING PRECEDENT THAT WE NEED TO NOW WONDER IF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S WILL FOLLOW THE PRECEDENT OF SETTING ASIDE THE LAWS AND PERHAPS EXPAND IT.

OR, IF HE WILL TAKE A SHIFT AND REALLY REALIGN OUR POLICIES.

>> THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANYTHING THAT SUGGESTS, HISTORICALLY, THAT HE WILL SHIFT.

AS YOU SAY, EVERY AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD THAT POLICY.

AND, ACTUALLY, EVEN BEFORE YOUR GENERATION.

STATE DEPARTMENT NEGOTIATORS DURING THE PEACE PROCESS, SOME HAVE SAID WE SHOULD STOP BEING ISRAEL'S LAWYER AND WE NEED TO GO BACK TO BEING HONEST BROKERS AND THINK OF OUR OWN NATIONAL INTERESTS FIRST.

JUST TO SAY WHAT THE LEAHY LAW IS, IT IS MEANT TO FORCE FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE AND HOLD THEIR OWN ACCOUNTABLE FOR VIOLATIONS LIKE TORTURE OR EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS, IN OTHER WORDS, UPHOLD THE RIGHTS WHEN THEY USE AMERICAN WEAPONS.

THE U.S.

BELIEVES, AND IN THE MAY ASSESSMENT, THEY FOUND THAT WHILE WEAPONS MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN WAYS "INCONSISTENT WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW," CAN'T OFFICIALLY CONFIRM IT AND THEY ALSO STOPPED SHORT OF SAYING THAT ISRAEL VIOLATED, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DIDN'T ADDRESS THE INDIVIDUAL CASES THAT HAS BEEN MAINTAINED BY "PROPUBLICA".

THIS IS A LONG WAY OF SAYING IN 2007, I INTERVIEWED THE LATE PRESIDENT CARTER AND ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS SITUATION.

AND, HE SAID, AND I'M PARAPHRASING, "NO AMERICAN CONGRESSMAN WOULD VOTE TO WITHHOLD OR ATTACH CONDITIONS TO AMERICAN MILITARY AID OR ANY AID AND HOPE TO EVER BE REELECTED."

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, DO YOU THINK YOUR NEW INITIATIVE HAS ANY TEETH OR ANY CHANCE AT ALL?

>> YES, I DO.

I THINK FIRST OF ALL, THE TIDE IS TURNING.

WE HAVE THE WIND AT OUR BACK.

WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT IN AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION ABOUT U.S. POLICY TO ISRAEL OVER THE COURSE PARTICULARLY OF THE LAST 15 MONTHS.

TO BE FAIR, THAT IS NOT A SYMPTOM OF MY ORGANIZATION.

THAT IS IF OPTION OF ISRAEL'S OWN ACTIONS AND HOW CLEARLY IT HAS DEMONSTRATED ITS DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE AND FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW.

IT IS ALSO A FUNCTION OF THE INCREASING COST AMERICA IS PAYING FOR ITS UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT TO ISRAEL.

WE ARE LOSING PARTNERSHIPS AND ALLIES.

WE ARE SEEING COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ACCUSE US OF HYPOCRISY AND EXPRESS A PREFERENCE, PRINCIPAL, IN SOUTHEAST ASIA.

WE HAVE SEEN POLLS FOR THE FIRST TIME EXPRESS AND A PREFERENCE FOR PARTNERSHIP WITH THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA OVER THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PRECISELY BECAUSE OF OUR SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL IN GAZA.

I THINK THOSE FACTORS COMBINED WITH AN ORGANIZED, INFORMED, PROFESSIONAL EFFORT, CAN SHIFT THINGS IN AMERICA.

IT WILL TAKE TIME.

>> LET ME INTERRUPT YOU.

I WANTED TO ASK IN THE LAST MINUTE OR TWO ABOUT THE NOTION OF PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF FROM WITHIN BEING ABLE TO AFFECT POLICY.

YOU RESIGNED EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A DISSENT CHANNEL IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WHICH I ASKED OUTGOING SECRETARY OF STATE AND ENABLING, WHEN I CONDUCTED HIS LAST INTERVIEW, THAT WAS LAST WEEK.

>> AND WITH RESPECT AND DEEPLY VALUE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE IN THIS APARTMENT AND IN OUR SYSTEM WHO HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS AND SPEAK UP AND SPEAK OUT.

WE HAVE SOMETHING CALLED THE DISSENT CHANNEL IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WHERE PEOPLE OBJECT TO A POLICY WE ARE PURSUING, THEY CAN SEND ME A NOTE, A MEMO , A DETAILED BRIEF AND I SEE IT.

I READ IT.

I RESPOND TO IT.

I HAVE GOTTEN A COUPLE DOZEN WHEN IT COMES TO GAZA AS WELL AS OTHER ISSUES.

THAT IS A CHERISHED TRADITION IN THIS DEPARTMENT.

I WANTED TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE FEEL THEY CAN DO THAT.

IT HAS ALSO AFFECTED OUR THINKING, IN MANY CASES, INCLUDING OUR ACTIONS.

>> HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT, JOSH PAUL?

>> HE DIDN'T LISTEN.

WILL TRUMP?

WILL MARCO RUBIO?

THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO SEE.

>> WELL, THAT WRAPS THAT UP AND I AM GOING TO QUOTE ONE MORE FROM "PROPUBLICA" ON THIS LEVEL.

"SOME OF THE AGENCY TOP MIDDLE EAST'S COMPLAINT IN PRIVATE THAT THEY WERE SIDELINED BY BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL DISTRIBUTED A LIST OF BANNED PHRASES, INCLUDING ANY VERSION OF "STATE OF PALESTINE" THAT DIDN'T HAVE THE WORD "FUTURE" FIRST.

TWO HUMAN RIGHTS OFFICIALS SAID THAT THEY WERE PREVENTED FROM PURSUING EVIDENCE OF ABUSES IN GAZA AND WEST BANK."

IS THAT SOMETHING YOU CAN CONFIRM AND CORROBORATE?

>> YES.

THE LAWYERS HAVE BEEN ASKED NOT TO MAKE ASSESSMENTS OF ISRAEL'S VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AND THAT POLICY OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN ASKED TO CHANGE THEIR ASSESSMENT OF WHETHER ISRAEL, VERITABLE, IS RESTRICTING HUMANITARIAN AID DELIVERY.

THIS CANNOT CONTINUE.

WE NEED, AT THE VERY LEAST, THE FACTS IN FRONT OF US.

AND, I WOULD CLOSE FOR SOMETHING PRESIDENT CLINTON SAID AFTER HIS FIRST MEETING WITH PRIME MINISTER, NOW PRIMITIVE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, "WHO IS THE SUPERPOWER HERE?"

LINTON SAID THE FOREWORD.

THAT IS THE QUESTION PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NEEDS TO ASK HIMSELF AS HE LOOKED AT FOREIGN POLICY TOWARD ISRAEL.

WHO IS THE SUPERPOWER HERE AND WHO SHOULD BE DIRECTING THE INTEREST AND THE ALIGNMENT WITH AMERICAN INTERESTS AND VALUES?

IT IS SURELY OUR OWN INTERESTS AND VALUES THAT SHOULD BE SUPERIOR.

>> JOSH PAUL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JUST WANT TO SAY ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SEE THE FULL ARTICLE, AS I SAID, IT IS IN "PROPUBLICA" AND THEY HAVE GONE TO ISRAEL FOR THEIR COMMENTS AS WELL.

YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THAT.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO A FILM THAT CRITICS ARE RAVING ABOUT.

IT IS CALLED "HARD TRUTHS" AND IT IS A GRITTY TRAGICOMEDY BY THE AWARD-WINNING BRITISH DIRECTOR MIKE LEIGH, SET IN MODERN-DAY LONDON.

ACTRESS MARIANNE JEAN-BAPTISTE GIVES A SEARING PERFORMANCE AS PANSY, A SAD, ANGRY, AND WOUNDED WOMAN WHO DOESN'T HIDE HER WRITING EMOTIONS.

THAT >> IS UPSET WITH THE RELATIONSHIP BY HER SUPPORTIVE AND JOYFUL SISTER, CHANTELLE.

>> DO YOU WANT TO COME TO THE FLAT ON SUNDAY?

THE GIRLS WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU.

>> YOU KNOW I HAVE HEALTH ISSUES.

>> I MIGHT SPEND THE DAY LYING IN BED.

>> SHE MAKES EVERYTHING ABOUT HER.

SHE'S RUDE.

>> I HAVE BEEN HARASSED BY PEOPLE ALL DAY.

I AM SICK TO DEATH OF IT.

I JUST WANTED TO ALL STOP.

>> THE LAST TIME MIKE LEIGH TEAMED UP WITH MARIANNE JEAN- BAPTISTE WAS BACK IN 1996.

SHE WAS NOMINATED FOR AN OSCAR FOR BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS IN HIS ACCOUNT "SECRETS AND LIES."

THEY BOTH JOIN ME ON SET IN LONDON TO TALK ABOUT CHARACTER LEAD DRAMAS AND MIKE LEIGH'S UNIQUE CREATIVE PROCESS.

MIKE LEIGH AND MARIANNE JEAN- BAPTISTE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> HERE IS ANOTHER IN YOUR SERIES OF EXAMINING THE HUMAN CONDITION, FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD.

HOW DO YOU PITCH THIS, WHEN YOU WANT TO GO TO WHEREVER YOU GO TO GET THE FINANCING?

THERE IS NO PLOT, THERE IS NO SCRIPT, YET.

YOU DON'T HAVE IT ALL DONE YET AND YOU WANT TO TELL AN ORDINARY STORY ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS.

WHAT DO THEY SAY, THE STUDIOS?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO I SAY?

I SAY THERE IS NO SCRIPT, CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT IT IS ABOUT, CAN'T TELL YOU ABOUT THE CASTING .

CAN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT IT AT ALL AND PLEASE DON'T INTERFERE WITH IT WHILE WE ARE MAKING IT.

IT IS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

IT IS A FANTASTIC, GREAT, HERE'S THE MONEY, GO AWAY AND MAKE A FILM.

OR, IN THE MAJORITY OF CASES, THEY TELL US TO GET LOST.

IN TERMS OF YOUR QUESTION, I DON'T EVEN GET AS FAR AS SAYING IT IS ABOUT LIFE FOR IT IS ABOUT THIS WOMAN, OR NONE OF THAT BECAUSE WE DO EMBARK, WHEN WE MAKE THE FILM, LIKE THIS FILM "HARD TRUTHS", WE EMBARK ON THE JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY OF ABOUT THE FILM IS BY MAKING IT.

>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE JOURNEY BECAUSE IT IS FASCINATING AND UNIQUE IN THE FILM WORLD.

MARIANNE JEAN-BAPTISTE, HOW DOES THE DIRECTOR PITCH IT TO YOU?

YOU HAVE WORKED WITH MIKE LEIGH BEFORE.

IT IS, IS IT DISCONCERTING THE FIRST AND?

>> THE FIRST TIME, IT IS LIKE WOW !

ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN TO THE PROCESS, YOU COULD VERY EXCITED AND HUNGRY TO DO IT AGAIN.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST FOR A LITTLE BIT OF THE PLOT OF THIS ONE.

I KNOW THERE ISN'T A PLOT BUT THE STORYLINE.

WE HAVE SOME CLIPS AND THE METHOD BECAUSE THE METHOD IS FANTASTIC FASCINATING.

GIVE ME YOUR PITCH.

WHAT IS IT, WHAT IS THE STORY ABOUT, IN YOUR MIND?

>> IT CENTERS ON A WOMAN CALLED PANSY .

SHE IS NOT HAPPY.

SHE FEELS ALONE, SHE FEELS ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

SHE IS A COMPLEX CHARACTER, SHE IS A DIFFICULT PERSON BUT SHE HERSELF IS IN PAIN AND THAT IS ALL I AM GOING TO SAY BECAUSE IT IS FAR MORE COMPLEX.

AND IT IS ABOUT HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER HUSBAND, WHICH IS NOT GOOD, WITH HER SON, WHICH IS NOT GOOD.

CENTRAL TO IT ALL IS HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER SISTER >> WHICH IS AN AMAZING RELATIONSHIP CORRECTLY.

IT IS THE AREA OF LIGHT, TO AN EXTENT.

MARIANNE, WHEN I WAS WATCHING THE MOVIE, I JUST SAID THIS IS A TOUR DE FORCE OF MISERY.

I WAS LIKE REALLY PANICKED FOR YOU AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE IT WAS GOING TO LEAD AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

I GUESS HOW DO YOU INHABIT THAT AMOUNT OF MISERY FOR THAT LONG?

I HEAR REHEARSALS ARE IN THE REGION OF 12 WEEKS, THEN 14, ANOTHER 6 WEEKS OF SHOOTING.

>> WE ARE VERY DISCIPLINED ABOUT GETTING INTO CHARACTER AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, COMING OUT OF CHARACTER.

IT IS NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BEING A METHOD ACTOR, PER SE, AND BEING LIKE THAT THE WHOLE TIME.

BUT, WE ALSO DO A LOT OF WORK CREATING THE CHARACTER AND ALL THAT STUFF IS BUILT IN.

ALL OF HER ANXIETY, ALL OF HER FEAR, ALL OF HER DISAPPOINTMENTS, HER FAILURES, ALL THAT IS THERE.

>> MARIANNE IS A CONSUMMATE ACTOR, WHICH IS TO SAY SHE IS VERSATILE, SHE HAS A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR, SHE HAS A GREAT SENSE OF LIFE AND SHE IS ABLE TO PLAY ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.

THIS IS A CHARACTER.

SHE IS NOT THE CHARACTER.

THEREFORE, YOU ARE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE PAIN THAT YOU SUFFER, THAT SHE SUFFERS IN CHARACTER.

YOU ARE SEPARATE FROM THAT, AREN'T YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> LET'S PLAY THE FIRST CLIP THAT WE HAVE.

TO YOUR POINT, ABOUT BEING A DISAPPOINTED WOMAN INCLUDING WITH HER HUSBAND AND HER ONLY CHILD, HER SON.

THIS BECOMES, PLUS THE ANGER, EVIDENT IN THE CLIP WE ARE GOING TO PLAY.

>> IT IS A SCAM.

THEY ARE SCAMMING PEOPLE.

CAN'T TRUST THEM.

THEY WANT YOUR PHONE NUMBER, YOUR EMAIL.

I ASKED ONE OF THEM, I SAID WHY DO YOU WANT MY POSTCODE?

I MIGHT AS WELL JUST GIVE YOU MY FRONT DOOR KEY SO YOU CAN BREAK INTO MY HOUSE AND KILL MY ONLY CHILD.

NOBODY CALLED THE POLICE ON THEM.

POLICE WOULD COME ANYWAY, THEY WERE TOO BUSY HARASSING BLACK BOYS WALKING.

>> SHE HAS BEEN ENCOUNTERED ON THE STREET AND SHE HAS THIS REACTION.

WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

IN TERMS OF HER, HOW SHE REACTS TO PEOPLE, SHE IS A BIT MISANTHROPIC OR PANICKED AND TROUBLED, PLUS YOU SEE THROUGH THE FILMS SHE DOES NOT HAVE A SOLID RELATIONSHIP WITH HER HUSBAND AND SON.

>> I JUST THINK THAT SHE IS SOMEBODY WHO IS TERRIBLY UNHAPPY AND VIEWS THE WORLD, SHE IS AN OBSERVANT PERSON BUT HER OBSERVATIONS ARE VERY SUBJECTIVE AND JUDGMENTAL, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

WE HAVE ALL BEEN TO THE SUPERMARKET AND WANTED TO SORT OF CREEP PAST PEOPLE THAT ARE ASKING FOR DONATIONS AND WHAT HAVE YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A HURRY OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

WE DON'T GET IRATE ABOUT IT.

WELL, PANSY DOES BECAUSE THE WHOLE WORLD AND PEOPLE AND THINGS UPSET HER OR SCARE HER .

>> WHEN I GOT TO THE END OF THE FILM, THERE IS FAMOUSLY NOT A MEAT BOWTIE ENDING.

WE HAVE TO INTERPRET WHAT HER TROUBLES ARE, ESSENTIALLY.

WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO DESCRIBE IT?

WHAT IS HER PROBLEM WITH HER HUSBAND?

SHE SEEMS TO HAVE A LOVELY HOME, THEY HAVE A LOVELY HOME.

NOT VERY COLORFUL OR ANYTHING IN TERMS OF DECORATION BUT VERY NICE HOME.

THEY SEEM TO BE A MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILY.

HE'S GOT A GOOD JOB AS A PLUMBER.

HE'S INDEPENDENT.

HER SON, APPARENTLY, IS A BIT OF A, WHAT IS HE, IS HE A LOSER?

>> IT IS HARD TO SAY.

I AM RELUCTANT TO SAY.

PLAINLY, THE SUN IS, HE'S NOT STUPID.

HE COULD HAVE POTENTIAL.

WHEN YOU LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE A LOT OF KIDS THE FIELD AND DON'T HAVE SOME WORK TO DO SO, HE SUFFERS FROM THAT.

PLAINLY, WITHOUT BEING TOO EXPENSIVE BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE TALKING ABOUT THE FILM IN A WAY THAT WILL SPOIL IT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO SEE IT, BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU COULD ARGUE THAT PERHAPS YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY MUST POSSIBLY HAVE NOT BEEN THE GREATEST PARENTS IN THE WORLD.

AS TO THE END, AS TO WHAT HAPPENS AT THE END OF THE FILM, I HAND IT OVER TO YOU, THE AUDIENCE.

IT IS NOT FOR ME OR FOR US TO EVEN TO SPECULATE ON WHETHER THIS HAPPENS WHEN THAT HAPPENS OR SOMETHING ELSE.

IT IS FOR YOU TO WORRY ABOUT, CONCERN YOURSELF ABOUT THE DEAL WITH OR NOT DEAL WITH OR FORGET OR WHATEVER YOU WANT.

>> I DID CONCERN MYSELF WITH IT.

FOR ME, THE END, TELL ME IF I AM WRONG OR RIGHT.

I'M NOT GOING TO BE A LEADER EITHER.

THERE IS NO CLOSURE.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

I READ THAT YOU SAID THIS TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES,", "MY INSTRUCTIONS ARE VERY CLEAR.

DON'T TRY AND BE INTERESTING, DON'T TRY AND TAKE ANYTHING HAPPEN."

>> THAT IS A CONFUSION.

VERY LEGITIMATELY, YOU ARE CONFLATING TWO QUITE SEPARATE THINGS.

WHEN I SAY THAT, THE VERY BEGINNING OF MY WORK PROCESS.

THAT, LET'S JUST DEAL WITH THAT.

WHAT I ASK IS IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO HER TO EMBODY THE CHARACTERS THAT ARE JUST IN THE PROCESS OF CREATING, BECAUSE OF THE CONVENTION OF IMPROVISING FOR MANY ACTORS IS TO BE INTERESTING, TO BE FUNNY, TO BE INVENTIVE, MY INSTRUCTION IS TO TRY AND TO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

JUST BE IN CHARACTER.

THAT IS A MATTER FROM WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS THE CONDITION OF THE CHARACTERS AT THE END OF THE FILM.

>> I WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO SEGUE INTO ANOTHER CLIP BUT I GET IT.

I AM BEING DIRECTED BY MIKE LEIGH AND I ACCEPT IT AND IT IS AN HONOR .

BUT, MARIANNE, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A SUB RELATIONSHIP OR MAYBE IT IS A KEY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHARACTER PANSY AND LEAVE AT PRESENT CHARACTER WHO PLAYS HER SISTER, CHANTELLE.

>> I'M SAY IT IS KEY.

>> IS KEY BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY HOPE, IT IS THE ONLY LIGHT AND IT IS GREAT TO SEE SHE HAS A POTENTIAL FOR A WARM RELATIONSHIP, WHETHER SHE ACCEPTED OR NOT.

THIS CLIP IS ABOUT HER TALKING TO HER SISTER ARE YOU TALKING TO THE SECRETARY ABOUT MOSES.

>> LOOK AT HIM.

KEEP STILL.

22-YEAR-OLD MAN AND HE IS STILL EATING BETTER AND JAM SANDWICHES.

I TALKED TO HIM UNTIL I'M TIRED.

I SAY MOSES, WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR LIFE?

WHERE DO YOU SEE YOUR SELF IN 25 YEARS TIME?

I AM SICK OF IT.

>> DO YOU WANT ME TO TALK TO HIM?

>> AND SAY WHAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW, SEE IF I CAN HELP HIM.

>> ARE YOU TRYING TO INSINUATE MYSELF INTO MY FAMILY?

>> A NICE CONVERSATION GETS A BIT PARANOID.

THERE'S LITTLE HUMOR AS WELL.

THAT'S NOT AN UNUSUAL THING TO HEAR A MOTHER SAY ABOUT A CHILD.

>> IT'S NOT.

IT'S NOT AT ALL.

>> WHAT IS THAT LOOK?

>> IT IS JUST THAT >> WE ARE JUST ENJOYING EACH OTHER.

WE JUST LIKE DOING ALL THIS BECAUSE LAUGHING ABOUT IT HELPS.

>> WE DO HAVE A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR, THE BOTH OF US.

PANSY OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T.

IN WORKING AND BUILDING THE CHARACTER, INEVITABLY, THERE WILL BE SOME HUMOR IN IT, ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT PLAYED FOR LAUGHS.

>> IN TERMS OF WHAT THE FILM IS, ALTHOUGH I SUPPOSE I COULD SAY THIS ABOUT ALL OF MY FILMS IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER, LIFE IS BOTH COMIC AND TRAGIC.

THAT IS HOW IT COMES OUT OF THE SOIL.

>> I WANT TO KNOW, BECAUSE YOU ARE LEGENDARY, AND AS YOU SAY THERE MAY BE MISCONCEPTIONS OR MYTHOLOGY ABOUT THE IMPROVISATIONAL MANDATE THAT YOU BRING TO THE SET.

I THINK SOME PEOPLE WOULD THINK, MAYBE EVEN I THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU GET YOUR CAST, YOU BRING THEM A LOT OF UNKNOWNS, TURN ON THE CAMERAS AND YOU SHOOT FOREVER UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT.

IT IS NOT LIKE THAT.

>> IT ABSOLUTELY ISN'T.

IT IS THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM.

THERE IS A KIND OF FILM MAKING THAT IS LEGITIMATE FOR THOSE THAT DO IT WHERE IT IS ABOUT ACTORS AD-LIBBING, IMPROVISING WITH THE CAMERA PICKING THINGS UP AND THEN THE FILMMAKERS GO TO THE CUTTING ROOM, THE EDITING AND MAKE SENSE OF IT AND STITCH IT ALTOGETHER.

THAT IS NOT THAT AT ALL.

YOU NEVER SEE ACTORS IMPROVISING ON THE SCREEN OR VERY, VERY RARELY.

IN CERTAIN MOMENTS, MAYBE OUT IN THE STREET.

IT IS HARDLY HAPPENING AT ALL.

WE ARRIVED AT SOMETHING VERY PRECISE.

I DON'T GO AWAY AND WRITE A SCRIPT ON PAPER OR MY LAPTOP AND BRING IT BACK.

WE SCRIPT THROUGH REHEARSAL.

WE START WITH IMPROVISING AND WE ONLY DO THAT IN THE LOCATION SEQUENCE BY SEQUENCE.

AFTER A LONG TIME OF DEVELOPING THE CHARACTERS AND THE PREMISE OF THE FILM, WE SCRIPT THROUGH REHEARSAL UNTIL IT IS VERY PRECISE.

WE DO THAT WITHOUT THE CREW, THE FILM CREW.

THE FILM CREW JOINS US AGAIN AND WE LOOK AT IT AND DECIDE HOW TO SHOOT IT AND WE SHOOT IT.

IT IS VERY DISTILLED, VERY PRECISE, AND, IN THAT SENSE, FAR BE IT FOR ME TO SAY, BUT IT IS KIND OF CLASSICAL CINEMA.

IT IS NOT AT FOUND CINEMA.

IT IS NOT HANDHELD AND ALL THAT STUFF.

>> AND WHAT DOES THAT FEEL FOR YOU AS AN ACTRESS WHEN YOU ARE TOLD THAT THIS IS HOW IT IS GOING TO BE?

I KNOW YOU HAVE WORKED WITH MIKE LEIGH BEFORE BUT MAYBE SOME OF THE OTHERS WHO HADN'T APPEARED >> WHEN YOU FIRST START OF SAY THERE IS NO SCRIPT, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS GOING TO BE ABOUT, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR CHARACTER IS GOING TO BE , UNDERSTANDABLY, YOU COULD BE QUITE TERRIFIED BECAUSE IT IS LIKE WHERE IS IT GOING?

YOU CAN CONTROL STUFF WHEN YOU'VE GOT THE SCRIPT.

YOU CAN PLAN HOW YOU ARE GOING TO REACT AND STUFF.

IN THIS SENSE, YOU ARE REALLY FREE BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW.

SO, ALL YOU ARE FOCUSED ON IS BEING IN CHARACTER AND REACTING NATURALLY AS YOU DO IN LIFE.

>> AS THE CHARACTER.

>> IS THE CHARACTER.

>> NOT AS THE ACTOR, AS THE CHARACTER.

>> IS A TRUTH THAT AS THE ACTOR INTO THE CHARACTER IN "SECRETS AND LIES," WHEN THE ACTRESS WHO WANTS MORE MOTHER, AND WHITE WOMAN MET YOU IN THE FIRST SCENE THAT SHE MET YOU, SHE WAS SURPRISED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

MIKE CAN TELL YOU THE STORY.

>> THAT WAS A PREPOSITION, WHICH WAS A WALL GAME WEEKS OR MONTHS BEFORE WE START THE SCENE ON LOCATION.

WE SET IT UP AND IN CHARACTER, MARIANNE HAD CALLED HER ON THE CELL PHONE AND SHE RECEIVED THIS AND SHE, BRENDA BLETHYN HERSELF, THE ACTRESS, THOUGHT, BECAUSE SHE HAD ONLY HEARD HER LONDON VOICE, SHE THOUGHT IT WAS ANOTHER ACTRESS SHE KNEW WAS DOING SOMETHING IN THE FILM, SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT.

SHE THOUGHT IT WAS HER.

>> YOU HAD TO GO ESSENTIALLY AND LEARN TO BE AN AUTO OPTOMETRIST, RIGHT?

>> SHE DID GREAT.

THAT IS ANOTHER GREAT THING ABOUT WORKING WITH HIM.

YOU GET TO GO OFF AND STUDY SOMETHING.

I LOVE LEARNING NEW THINGS.

I ACTUALLY TRIED TO BE A PILOT FOR THAT ONE BECAUSE I HAD WORKED WITH HIM BEFORE THAT.

I KNEW THAT I WOULD HAVE TO PICK SOMETHING FROM A CHARACTER TO DO.

I CHEEKILY SUGGESTED THAT SHE IS A PRIVATE.

>> I CHEEKILY TOLD HER TO FORGET IT.

I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS APPROPRIATE.

>> THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN PILOTS.

>> DIDN'T SAY THAT.

I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS APPROPRIATE FOR HER.

>> THAT IS FUNNY.

I'VE HEARD YOU SAY THAT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE SEE IN THE FILM IS THAT THE THAT I SPOKE OF STUDY AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

THE WHOLE REST OF IT IS UNDERWATER THAT WE DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH WORK YOU HAVE DONE.

>> THAT IS IT.

>> THAT IS IMPORTANT.

WHEN WE DO ALL THAT WORK AND THE PREPARATION, INCLUDING MILLIONS OF MILES OF BACK STORY AND SUBJECT AND ALL OF THAT, WE DO ALL OF THAT SO THAT WHEN WE GET TO THAT TIP OF THE ICEBERG, AS YOU CALL IT, IT IS TOTALLY RESONANT AND WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT TRYING TO TALK INTO EXISTENCE RETROSPECTIVELY BECAUSE IT IS ALL THERE.

THE FOUNDATIONS ARE THERE.

>> SOMETHING I DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL I READ ABOUT IT IS THAT YOU ARE ALSO A MUSICIAN, A COMPOSER?

AND, YOU HAVE DONE A SCORE TOGETHER, ONE OF THE FILM SCORES, WHICH IS PRETTY INTENSE.

THAT IS PRETTY AMAZING.

>> THAT WAS A LOT OF FUN.

>> WHAT DOES MUSICA GIVE YOU?

>> I LOVE BEING CREATIVE.

I LOVE STARTING WITH NOTHING AND ENDING UP WITH SOMETHING, GOING ON SOME KIND OF JOURNEY.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT NOT ONLY THAT SHE COMPOSED THE SCORE FOR "CAREER GIRLS," BUT SHE SANG AS WELL.

SHE IS A BEAUTIFUL SINGER.

>> WOULD YOU LIKE TO SING NOW?

DO YOU SING A CAPPELLA?

>> NO THANK YOU.

>> NOT FALLING INTO THAT TRAP.

>>> FINALLY, YOU SAID THAT WHEN YOU STARTED, IT WAS BEFORE MARGARET THATCHER AND THROUGH MARGARET THATCHER AND BEYOND AND YOUR FILMS WERE QUITE POLITICAL IN TERMS OF BEING A RESECTION OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN SOCIETY.

>> WELL, I THINK SOME FILMS WERE MORE OBVIOUSLY POLITICAL.

I HAVE NOT MADE ANY FILM, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF "PETER GUBER" WHICH WAS OVER TO THE POLITICAL.

>> LET'S SAY A COMMENTARY ON SOCIETY.

>> THE ARE ALL THAT.

>> DO YOU FEEL IN THE NEW EUROPE IS CHANGING, THERE'S A LOT OF MOVEMENT TO THE RIGHT, AMERICA HAS JUST MOVED TO THE RIGHT IN A BIG WAY WITH DONALD TRUMP AGAIN BUT MAYBE DOUBLED DOWN, DO YOU FEEL THERE IS A PARTICULAR PLACE FOR A VOICE LIKE YOURS RIGHT NOW?

>> THINK I HONESTLY THINK THAT THERE IS NO MORE OR LESS PLACE FOR THE KIND OF FILMMAKERS OR ARTISTS OF ANY KIND THAT RESONATE WITH WHAT I CARE ABOUT BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HUMAN CONDITION.

REALLY, SURE.

EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS INFORMS ONE'S VIEW OF THE WORLD.

IT ISN'T, IT IS NOT JOURNALISM, NO DISRESPECT TO JOURNALISM.

AND IT IS NOT, IN THAT SENSE, LOCAL.

IT IS UNIVERSAL, I THINK.

NOT WANTING TO BE POMPOUS.

THEREFORE, I FEEL THAT ONE COULD BE SAYING THE SAME SORT OF THINGS ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> FOR YOU, A ANOTHER FILM IN THE OFFERING?

>> WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A FILM BEFORE TOO LONG.

DON'T ASK ME WHAT IT IS ABOUT.

>> MAYBE YOU DON'T KNOW YET.

>> I DON'T REALLY, TO BE HONEST.

>> MIKE LEIGH, MARIANNE JEAN- BAPTISTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN.

CONGRATULATIONS.

>>> "HARD TRUTHS" IS OUT NOW IN THE UNITED STATES AND IT RELEASES HERE IN THE UK NEXT WEEK.

>>> NOW, ARE WE PREPARING YOUNG PEOPLE FOR OUR RAPIDLY CHANGING WORLD?

IN AN AGE OF ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND POPULISM, OUR NEXT GUEST SAY WE ARE NOT TEACHING CHILDREN THE SKILLS THAT THEY NEED, NOT ONLY TO STAY ENGAGED, BUT FOR THE REALITY OF LATER LIFE.

AUTHORS JENNY ANDERSON AND REBECCA WINTHROP JOIN MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN SOME OF THE EXAMPLES AND SOLUTIONS THEY LAY OUT IN THEIR NEW BOOK, "THE DISENGAGED TEAM."

>> JENNY ANDERSON, REBECCA WINTHROP, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH THE SPIRIT >> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> JENNY, YOU HAVE BEEN A JOURNALIST FOCUSED ON EDUCATION AND THE LEARNING EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE DONE OTHER THINGS BUT THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF YOUR CAREER INTERESTS.

REBECCA WINTHROP, YOU ARE AN EDUCATION POLICY EXPERT.

YOU COULD A NEW BOOK WE TALK ABOUT THE DISENGAGEMENT CRISIS AMONG TEENAGERS.

WHY DO YOU SAY THERE IS A DISENGAGEMENT CRISIS?

WHAT IS THAT AND WHY DO YOU SAY THERE IS ONE?

>> STUDENT ENGAGEMENT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FOR HOW KIDS CAN LEARN AND IT IS ESSENTIAL TO LEARNING WELL AND IT MEANS THAT KIDS DON'T JUST BEHAVIORALLY SHOW UP TO SCHOOL, IT MEANS THAT THEY COGNITIVELY ENGAGED AND THEY WILL BE START DEEPLY LEARNING ABOUT THE SUBJECTS THAT THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT IN CLASS AND IT ALSO MEANS THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT THEY ARE LEARNING.

ACTUALLY, HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT SCHOOL HAS A LOT TO DO WITH HOW WELL YOU DO.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A STUDENT DISENGAGEMENT CRISIS FOR A LONG TIME, THE LAST COUPLE DECADES.

THE U.S. CENSUS SAYS ONLY A THIRD OF KIDS ARE HIGHLY ENGAGED IN SCHOOL.

TODAY, THE CONSEQUENCES OF BEING DEEPLY DISENGAGED ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

>> PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT TEENAGERS FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL.

HOW MANY MOVIES HAVE WE SEEN THAT ARE ABOUT BOARD KIDS AND THE TEACHER WHO COMES IN TO SAVE THEM, RIGHT?

IS THIS SOMETHING NEW?

IS THERE SOMETHING NEW ABOUT THE FACT THAT A LOT OF KIDS DON'T LIKE SCHOOL?

>> THE GENRE OF THE DISAFFECTED TEEN IS A LONG AND STORIED ONE.

THERE IS A REASON WE ALL LOVE "THE BREAKFAST CLUB."

IT WAS A GREAT MOVIE.

YOU ARE CORRECT IN NOTING IT IS NOT NEW.

THE CONSEQUENCES HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY.

THE SKILLS KIDS NEED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF SCHOOL ARE MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY WERE EVEN 20 YEARS AGO.

20 YEARS AGO, YOU HAD A COLLEGE DEGREE, MAYBE AN INTERNSHIP OR TWO, YOU WERE PROBABLY SET UP.

TODAY, YOU NEED A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF SKILLS TO NAVIGATE A WORLD OF GENERATIVE AI, TO NAVIGATE POLARIZATION, TO NAVIGATE EVERYTHING WE SEE IN THE WORLD TODAY.

ANOTHER THING THAT HAS REALLY CHANGED THAT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT IS THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A GAP BETWEEN WHAT KIDS DO IN SCHOOL AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REAL WORLD.

THAT GAP IS A COUSIN AND KIDS KNOW IT, THEY FEEL IT, THEY SEE IT IN THEIR PHONES.

THEY SEE THE WORLD CHANGING AND THEY ARE STUDYING PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR AND THEY ARE WONDERING WHY ARE WE DOING THIS AND WE ARE ASKING THEM TO PUT IN A LOT OF ENERGY TO DO SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE IT IS PREPARING THEM FOR THE FUTURE AND THEY FEEL THAT AND IT FEEDS INTO THE ANXIETY AND YOU LAYER ON TOP OF THAT THE DESTRUCTION MACHINE, WHICH IS SOCIAL MEDIA, AND YOU HAVE A MUCH GRIMMER PORTRAIT OF HOW KIDS FEEL DURING THEIR DAYS.

>> THE SECOND QUESTION I HAVE IS IS THIS AN AMERICAN PROBLEM OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE SEEING IN COUNTRIES BEYOND THE UNITED STATES?

>> THIS IS DEFINITELY A PROBLEM WE ARE SEEING CERTAINLY ACROSS HIGH INCOME COUNTRIES, WHERE KIDS ARE INCREASINGLY LESS INTERESTED IN GOING TO SCHOOL.

THERE IS A FALLOUT ON ATTENDANCE FROM COVID-19 BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF KIDS WHO ARE IN SCHOOL PHYSICALLY, ARE ATTENDING AND HAVE DROPPED OUT OF LEARNING.

AND, JUST AS YOU SAID, IT WAS OKAY A COUPLE DECADES AGO.

YOU COULD COAST THROUGH SCHOOL, GET THE BASIC ACADEMIC REQUIREMENTS THAT MOST EMPLOYERS WERE LOOKING FOR, LITERACY, NUMERACY, MATH SKILLS, TODAY, EMPLOYERS ARE LOOKING FOR CHEAPER SKILLS.

THEY ARE LOOKING FOR COLLABORATIVE PROBLEM-SOLVING.

CREATIVE THINKING.

STRONG INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT RESOLUTION SKILLS.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS YOU CAME TO THE COAST THROUGH SCHOOL AND GET THEM.

THIS IS WHY THE DISENGAGEMENT PROBLEM IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND WE DO SEE THIS ACROSS A LOT OF THE HIGH INCOME WORLD.

>> I WANT TO ASK A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK AT COVID- 19.

IT WAS A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON.

OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE HIT SOME PEOPLE WERE HIT HARDER THAN OTHERS.

THE AGE YOU ARE, WHETHER YOU HAD ACCESS TO VACCINES, WHAT POLICIES YOUR SCHOOL SYSTEM UNDERTOOK TO ADDRESS IT, IS COVID AT THE ROOT OF THIS OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE?

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT AT THE ROOT OF THIS.

IT MADE EVERYTHING DRAMATICALLY WORSE.

IT HAD A DEVASTATING, DEVASTATING IMPACTS ON KIDS LEARNING.

BUT, DISENGAGEMENT HAS BEEN A LONG, IT HAS BEEN AROUND WAY LONGER THAN COVID-19 AND WAY LONGER THAN SMARTPHONES, WHICH IS NOT A CONVERSATION THAT IS BEING HAD.

KIDS HAVE BEEN DISENGAGED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.

YOUR QUESTION, WHY DON'T WE CARE MORE ABOUT THIS?

YES, WHY DON'T WE.

I WANT TO REITERATE THAT, WHY DON'T WE CARE MORE ABOUT THE?

I COVERED FINANCE FOR A LONG TIME AND WE CARE A LOT ABOUT FINANCIAL MARKETS AND WE INVEST A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY INTO MEDIA ATTENTION ON IT AND WE DON'T IN LEARNING.

I THINK IT IS A GOOD QUESTION AND I THINK IT IS HOPEFULLY SOMETHING THAT WE CAN FOCUS MORE ON.

THE QUALITY OF LEARNING EXPERIENCES IN SCHOOL AFFECTS WHAT THEY LEARN, HOW THEY LEARN, HOW THEY DEVELOP AS HUMANS, HOW THEY CAN COMMUNICATE WITH OTHERS, HOW EMPLOYABLE THEY ARE, WHAT KIND OF HUMANS THEY BECOME AND WE SEEM TO HAVE A GENERAL APATHY OR ALMOST ACCEPTANCE THAT, I GUESS KIDS ARE GOING TO HATE SCHOOL AND THAT IS OKAY AND THAT IS NOT OKAY.

HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT SCHOOL AFFECTS HOW THEY LEARN IN SCHOOL AND WHAT KIND OF LEARNERS AND HUMANS THEY WILL BE.

I DO THINK WE NEED TO CARE MORE.

>> I KNOW YOU INTERVIEWED A REALLY BROAD CROSS-SECTION OF PEOPLE FOR THIS BOOK.

THIS DOES, I MEAN, I'M GOING TO BE HONEST, THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF WHERE I THINK PEOPLE MIGHT HEAR THIS AS MIDDLE-CLASS ANXIETY, RIGHT, HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I WOULD ARGUE THAT THIS IS AN EQUITY ISSUE.

KIDS ACROSS THE SOCIOECONOMIC SPECTRUM DISENGAGED IN ROUGHLY THE SAME NUMBERS BUT THE IMPACTS OF BEING DISENGAGED ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY FELT FOR LOW INCOME KIDS.

THIS IS BECAUSE WHEN KIDS START DISENGAGING, IT IS A LONG CONTINUUM.

THEY START SHOWING UP IN SCHOOL BUT CHECKING OUT, THEY GET FURTHER BEHIND, THEY MIGHT START, STOP DOING THEIR HOMEWORK, THEN THEY START SKIPPING SCHOOL.

KIDS WITH PARENTS WHO HAVE THE RESOURCES INTERVENE, THEY GET TUTORS, THEY CHANGE SCHOOLS, THEY GET FAMILY RALLYING AROUND THEM.

BUT, POOR KIDS DON'T GET SECOND CHANCES.

SO, THE IMPACT OF DISENGAGEMENT ARE MUCH MORE FELT FOR LOW INCOME KIDS.

>> WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT DISENGAGEMENT.

WE CAN SEE IT SHOWING UP IN CHECKING OUT, POOR GRADES, ABSENTEEISM, NOT SHOWING UP.

WHAT DOES ENGAGEMENT LOOK LIKE?

>> ENGAGEMENT IS HOW KIDS THINK, FEEL, ACT, AND INITIATE WITH THEIR LEARNING.

A LOT OF IT IS VISIBLE.

THIS IS A CHALLENGE FOR PARENTS.

WE SEE THE BEHAVIORS.

THAT IS ONE COMPONENT OF ENGAGEMENT.

EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT IS HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE LEARNING, COGNITIVE ENGAGEMENT IS WHETHER THEY ARE DIGGING INTO THEIR LEARNING AND THE HOLY GRAIL IS AGENTIC ENGAGEMENT, WHETHER THEY ARE TAKING ACTIONS TO MAKE THEIR LEARNING THERE IS, TO ASK THE QUESTION BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND.

THINK OF THE BRAVERY IT REQUIRES TO RAISE YOUR HAND AND ADMIT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND SOMETHING BUT THAT IS THE STUFF THAT IS GOING TO WORK.

IT BRINGS IT BACK TO YOU.

I WANT TO DO THIS ASSIGNMENT THIS WAY, I REALLY CARE ABOUT THIS THING.

I HAVE IDENTIFIED THIS AS A SUBJECT TO CARE ABOUT SO I WANT TO LEARN MORE.

ALL OF THAT INITIATIVE REALLY DRIVES DEEPER LEARNING.

WE WERE, A BUNCH OF TEACHERS SAID TO US, "I ALWAYS THOUGHT ENGAGEMENT WAS WHEN KIDS SHOWED UP AND DID THE WORK AND REQUIRED."

OF COURSE WE NEED BEHAVIOR MANAGEMENT IN CLASSROOMS BUT ENGAGEMENT IS A MUCH MORE ACTIVE PROCESS.

SO, PARENTS HAVE A UNIQUE ROLE THEY CAN PLAY.

TEACHERS ARE CHALLENGED BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO KEEP ORDER IN A CLASSROOM WITH A LOT OF KIDS.

AT HOME, YOU WANT TO BE ASKING THE ACTIVE QUESTIONS AND GETTING KIDS ENGAGED AND DIGGING IN AND CURIOUS.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS WHAT ENGAGEMENT LOOKS LIKE.

YOU KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT BECAUSE KIDS BUBBLE OVER.

WHEN YOU ASK A KID HOW WAS SCHOOL TODAY AND THEY SAY FINE, THAT IS MAYBE WHEN YOU NEED TO WORRY A LITTLE BIT MORE.

>> I'M HEARING YOU TALK AND WHAT I AM THINKING ABOUT IS I AM THINKING ABOUT FINICKY PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO SAY AS A SOCIETY, WE CAN'T AFFORD THAT.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR BIG SCHOOLS, WE CAN'T AFFORD EVERYBODY TO HAVE A LEGAL CUSHION, TEACHER CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF 35 KIDS AND MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY IS ON TRACK, NOR CAN WE, THIS IS THE OTHER THING THAT COMES UP WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ENGAGEMENT, NOR CAN YOU SAY THAT GIVING KIDS AGENCY DOESN'T MEAN LETTING THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

THAT EDUCATION HAS TO BE FUN.

A LOT OF PARENTS ARE LIKE IT WASN'T FUN FOR ME.

>> THERE IS A MESS OUT OF THERE THAT WE CERTAINLY FELT OUR RESEARCH.

IT IS NOT TRUE.

IF YOU GIVE KIDS A LITTLE BIT OF AGENCY, THEY ARE GOING TO GO OFF THE RAILS.

WE ACTUALLY FOUND THAT YOU CAN DO QUITE A BIT TO BOOST ENGAGEMENT AS A CLASSROOM TEACHER IN ANY TYPE OF SCHOOL.

THERE IS 20 YEARS OF RESEARCH ON THIS THAT COMPARES CLASSROOMS THE CLASSROOM IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

WHEN TEACHERS SHIFT SLIGHTLY HOW THEY TALK TO KIDS, WITH MORE RESPECT, MORE OPTIONS FOR YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THREE OPTIONS FOR HOMEWORK, ASKING THEM, HEY, WE ARE STUDYING PHOTOSYNTHESIS TODAY, DO YOU GUYS HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT?

AND, I WILL START WITH A LECTURE THERE.

LITTLE SHIFTS WITHOUT CHANGING CURRICULUM, WITHOUT CHANGING THE DISCIPLINE, YOU KNOW, STRATEGIES OF THE SCHOOL MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE FOR STUDENT ENGAGEMENT.

>> WHY DOES IT MAKE SUCH A BIG DIFFERENCE?

>> WHEN TEACHERS GIVE KIDS OPTIONS TO THINK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE THEY WANT TO START A DISCUSSION IT MEANS THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT.

IT MEANS THEY HAVE TO REFLECT, THINK ABOUT THE TOPIC, SEE WHAT IS CURIOUS OR INTERESTING TO THEM, AND PUT A QUESTION OUT THERE.

THAT VERY PROCESS, WHICH IS ONE MINUTE, TWO MINUTES, ALL OF A SUDDEN LOCKS THEM INTO THE TOPIC.

MUCH MORE THAN WHEN A STUDENT SHOWS UP AND THEY ARE IN PASSIVE MODE JUST READY TO RECEIVE INFORMATION.

THAT IS ONE EXAMPLE OF A SWITCH IN TEACHER PRACTICE THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

AND, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS.

ANOTHER ONE IS WHEN TEACHERS GIVE EXPLANATORY RATIONALE, IS WHAT IT IS CALLED IN THE LITERATURE, BASICALLY EXPLAIN WHY YOU ARE ASSIGNING SOMETHING.

SO, SAYING, HEY, READ THIS, IT IS GOING TO BE ON THE TEST ON FRIDAY IS NOT AN EXPLANATORY RATIONALE.

THE NEXT MONETARY RATIONALE IS I AM ASSIGNING YOU THIS TEXT BECAUSE I REALLY WANT YOU TO LEARN HOW THE AUTHOR WE SEE IN STORY'S ROOM HISTORICAL SETTINGS.

I AM MAKING THIS UP.

SO, THOSE SMALL SHIFTS ACTUALLY MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE FOR KIDS.

>> JENNY, YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE ROLE THAT PARENTS CAN PLAY IN THIS.

CAN YOU TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> THEY CAN PLAY A TREMENDOUS ROLE.

THEY DON'T NEED A PHD, THEY DON'T NEED TO BE A TEACHER AND THEY DON'T NEED A LOT OF TIME.

WE ARE ALL BUSY TRYING TO GET THE LAUNDRY DONE, FOOD ON THE TABLE AND GET THE WORK DONE AND GET TO TOMORROW.

THIS IS VERY MUCH, AS REBECCA WAS EXPLAINED, THIS IS VERY MUCH A SHIFT IN THE TEENAGE YEARS IN PERSPECTIVE.

IT IS A LOT ABOUT LESS INSTRUCTIONAL, MORE INVITATIONAL.

DON'T MAKE THE PLAN FOR THEM, DON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM FOR THEM, DON'T DO THE HOMEWORK FOR THEM.

DON'T SIT THERE AND MAKE THEM TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK.

HELP THEM TO MAKE A PLAN TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK.

THE TWO KEY ISSUES THAT WE DRIVE IN ON FOR PARENTS IS THE QUALITY OF DISCUSSION, DISCUSSION IS TO ADOLESCENTS WHAT COUPLES ARE TO INFANTS.

NECESSARY FOR BRAIN DEVELOPMENT.

IT IS HOW A BRAIN IN THE ADOLESCENT YEAR IS FORMING CONNECTIONS.

TEACHERS, AS WE HAVE SAID, OR A LITTLE HAMSTRUNG IN THE CLASSROOM.

WE HAVE A LOT OF KIDS TO LOOK AFTER, A LOT OF CURRICULUM STANDARDS TO MEET, A LOT OF THINGS TO DO IN THE CLASSROOM.

PARENTS HAVE THE LUXURY OF KNOWING THE KID THAT IS SITTING IN THEIR HOUSE AND THEY HAVE KNOWN THEM FOR A LONG TIME AND THEY DO HAVE THE TIME AND AT THAT TIME IT MIGHT BE THE DINNER TABLE, TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE STUDYING, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN SCHOOL, TO VALIDATE THE WORK THEY ARE DOING.

I KNOW YOU DISSECTED A FORK IN SCIENCE TODAY.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL SICK, WAS ED KRAUSE, DID YOU SEE THE OVARIES, WHAT IT DOES LOOK LIKE?

YOU ARE COMMUNICATING THROUGH THAT THAT LEARNING MATTERS.

WHAT THEY DO ALL DAY MATTERS.

DISCUSSION AND INTEREST.

INTEREST IS THE CANVAS ON WHICH KIDS ARE DEVELOPING SKILLS.

>> REBECCA, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE INITIAL PREMISE, WHICH IS TEENAGERS.

THIS IS TOUGH ON TEENAGERS.

YOU HAVE SOME DATA IN THE BOOK WHERE YOU SUGGESTED THAT THIRD- GRADERS STILL LOVE SCHOOL, BY AND LARGE.

WHY DOES IT CHANGE OVER THE COURSE OF TIME?

WHY IS IT THAT BY THE TIME KIDS GET TO BE TEENAGERS, SO MANY OF THEM SAY THAT SCHOOL FEELS LIKE A PRISON OR THEY HATE IT WHEN THEY DON'T LIKE TO READ?

WHAT HAPPENS THERE?

>> IT IS A REALLY BIG CONCERN TO ME, TO JENNY, THAT IN THIRD GRADE, 75% OF KIDS LOVE SCHOOL AND BY 10th GRADE, IT IS FLIPPED, 25% OF KIDS LOVE SCHOOL.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THE SHIFT REALLY PICKS UP WHEN KIDS ENTER MIDDLE SCHOOL.

WHEN THEY ARE PRIMED TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO STAND OUT TO FIT IN.

THEY ARE TRYING TO FIND THEIR UNIQUE GIFTS AND THEIR PLACE AND THEIR TRIBE.

THEY ARE PRIMED TO TRY TO MAKE MEANING OF THE WORLD, TO TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF IT.

AND, SCHOOL SERVES UP A RANGE OF VERY SIDELOAD DISCIPLINE IN MULTIPLE CLASSES.

THEY DON'T HAVE ONE TEACHER TO CONNECT WITH.

A LOT OF KIDS LOSE A SENSE OF BELONGING.

THEY DON'T SEE THE CONNECTION OF WHAT THEY ARE LEARNING TO THE REAL WORLD, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ADOLESCENT DEVELOPMENT.

THEY WANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW THINGS FIT TOGETHER.

AND, THEY START THINKING IT IS POINTLESS.

EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT POINTLESS, OBVIOUSLY.

WE HAVE A REALLY BIG ROLE TO PLAY AS FAMILY MEMBERS TO TRY TO CONNECT THE DOTS FOR THEM.

THAT IS ANOTHER THING WE CAN DO.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS A REASON YOU ARE LEARNING THE PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM.

HERE IS HOW I USE IT AT WORK OR SOMEBODY ELSE USES IT AT WORK.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE RIGHT?

IT IS JUST BAD?

SCHOOL IS LIKE PRISON, A LOT OF WHAT THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THEM, WHAT IF THAT IS JUST TRUE?

>> A LOT OF IT IS TRUE.

WE JUST SPENT THREE YEARS TALKING TO TEENS AND LISTENING TO THEM AND A LOT OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS TRUE.

WE NEED TO DO BETTER AT A SYSTEM LEVEL TO MAKE THE EXPERIENCE OF SCHOOL MORE ENGAGING.

THINK ABOUT WHAT ADOLESCENCE IS.

YOU ARE TRYING TO SEPARATE FROM YOUR CAREGIVERS, FIND YOUR OWN TRIBE, THAT IS THE BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE AND YOU ARE MEANT TO BE EXPLORING TO DO THOSE THINGS.

YOU NEED TO BE DOING THINGS OTHER THAN SITTING IN A CHAIR AND ABSORBING KNOWLEDGE FROM SOMEONE SITTING IN FRONT OF THE CLASSROOM.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO HOW WE LEARN, AND IN PARTICULAR, HOW ADOLESCENTS LEARN.

WE NEED TO BALANCE.

KNOWLEDGE IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

WE ARE NOT ANTI-KNOWLEDGE.

WE NEED TO BETTER BALANCE WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND HOW THEY APPLY IT, GIVING THEM OPPORTUNITIES.

A LOT OF SCHOOLS DO THIS.

THERE ARE SCHOOLS ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE REDESIGNED THEIR DAY SO THE KIDS CAN SPEND HOURS IN THE CLASSROOM DURING THE LEARNING AND THEN THEY GO OUT AND APPLY IT.

BIG PICTURE LEARNING, THERE ARE SCHOOLS ALL OVER THE U.S. THAT LET KIDS GO TO PROJECTS THAT ARE COMMUNITY ORIENTED, THAT ARE REAL PROBLEMS.

YOU WANT A TEENAGER SOLVING A REAL PROBLEM AND THAT KID IS ON FIRE.

THEY KNOW THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THE CLASSROOM EVERY DAY, THE COURT DOING WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING.

IF YOU ANONYMOUS, THEY FEEL UNSEEN AND THEY FEEL THEY ARE NOT BEING PREPARED.

THE WE NEED TO GIVE THEM MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET OUT OF THE CLASSROOM AND DO THOSE THINGS.

IT DOES EXIST.

IT IS HAPPENING.

IT IS HAPPENING AT THE MARGINS AND WE NEED TO MAKE IT MORE OF THE MAINSTREAM.

TO THE POINT, YES, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THEM WHEN THEY SAVE A LOT OF THEIR DAY FEELS LIKE PRISON BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

>> REBECCA, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, SINCE YOU ARE THE POLICY PERSON HERE, IS ANYBODY LISTENING TO YOU?

ARE PEOPLE HEARING WHAT YOU ARE HEARING, SEEING WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, IS ANYBODY LISTENING?

>> THERE IS A VERY STRONG COALITION OF NONPROFITS, OFTEN, AND INNOVATIVE SCHOOL LEADERS DISTRICT LEADERS WHO ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN TACKLING THE DISENGAGEMENT CRISIS AND GIVING STUDENTS AN EDUCATION EXPERIENCE THAT ALLOWS THEM TO TRAIN TO BE THE AUTHOR OF THEIR OWN LIVES, GIVING THEM SOME CHOICE.

HELPING THEM MAKE DECISIONS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE ARE THE MINORITY.

AND, WHAT WE ARE HOPING IS THAT THIS BOOK WILL HELP PARENTS NOT ONLY HELP THEIR KID AT HOME BUT ALSO INCREASE THE DEMAND FROM PARENTS, FROM COMMUNITY MEMBERS, FROM THE PUBLIC TO HELP INNOVATIVE SCHOOL LEADERS BE THE MODEL AND SPREAD THIS APPROACH ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> REBECCA WINTHROP, JENNY ANDERSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>>> THAT IT DID FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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FROM LONDON.