January 29, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> DONALD TRUMP HAS SHUT OFF BILLIONS, PERHAPS TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

>>> FLOODING THE ZONE, TESTING LEGAL BOUNDARIES.

TRUMP'S RADICAL AGENDA IS TEMPORARILY BLOCKED IN COURT.

BUT, WHO CONTROLS THE FEDERAL PURSE?

DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN JOINED ME.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, THE FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE HOLDS A FOR ISRAEL AND GAZA.

I DISCUSSED HOW TO END THE WAR CONFLICT RESOLUTION SPECIALIST AND FORMER CATHOLIC PRIEST.

AND -- >> SHE HAS THIS UNCANNY ABILITY TO IMPOSE AT LEAST SOME DISCIPLINE ON TRUMP'S DISORDER.

NOBODY HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT BEFORE.

>> WHO REALLY GIVES A SUSIE WILES?

JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR CHRIS WHIPPLE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HELD THE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF STAFF IN HISTORY WILL ADVANCE TRUMP'S AGENDA.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM .

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

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AND, BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, WHERE GOVERNMENTS HERE AND IN EUROPE ARE BRACING FOR HELP PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DECISIONS WILL AFFECT THEM, AS HE FLOODS THE ZONE IN AMERICA.

POLITICIANS AND EXPERTS COMMITTED TO CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY ARE SCRAMBLING TO REACT.

RIGHT NOW, IT APPEARS THEY MAY HAVE WON THE FIRST ROUND OVER TRUMP TRYING TO FREEZE ALL FEDERAL AID AND TRIGGERING THE CHAOS AND CONFUSION WE HAVE SEEN AMONG EDUCATORS AND CHARITIES.

WE WILL GET INTO THAT WITH OUR FIRST GUEST.

AS WITH MANY OF TRUMP'S FIRST ACTIONS SO FAR, IT IS UNCLEAR WHETHER HE HAS THE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO MAKE SUCH AN ORDER.

ON TUESDAY NIGHT, OF COURSE, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAD HALTED, UNTIL NEXT MONDAY, THIS ORDER, SAYING, "THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T KNOW THE FULL SCOPE OF THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO THE PONDS."

INDEED, SOME AGENCY SAID, AT ONE POINT, THEY WERE UNABLE TO ACCESS EVEN FEDERAL FUNDS FOR MEDICAID, WHICH COVERS MORE THAN 72 MILLION LOW INCOME AMERICANS.

BUT, IS THIS PART OF A STRATEGY TO SWAMP THE SWAMP, AS TRUMP CALLS WASHINGTON, IS THE WHITE HOUSE TROTTING IT ON WITH CONGRESS?

JOINING ME NOW IS THE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM MARYLAND CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, WHO SITS ON THE VERY RELEVANT APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE, AS WELL AS OTHERS.

WELCOME FROM WASHINGTON.

I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE BREAKING NEWS IN REGARD TO THIS ORDER THAT TRUMP WAS TRYING TO SEND.

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, IT IS GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

JUST BEFORE I ARRIVED TO GO ON YOUR SHOW, WE LEARNED THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT HAD ISSUED A ONE LINE STATEMENT, SAYING THAT THE EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT FROZE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF FUNDS WITH THE THREAT OF PULLING THEM BACK HAD BEEN CANCELED.

THEY HAVE CANCELED THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER.

AS YOU INDICATED, A FEDERAL JUDGE WAS GOING TO REVIEW THE LEGALITY OF THAT ORDER ON MONDAY.

I BELIEVE IT WAS A SWEEPING POWER GRAB AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT, THEY HAVE PROBABLY NOTED THAT QUESTION BY RESCINDING THE ORDER ALTOGETHER.

>> MAY I ASK YOU, SENATOR, TO READ WHAT YOU RECEIVED?

CAN I ASK YOU TO READ IT?

>> SURE, I AM HAPPY TO.

IT IS FROM THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT, THE ACTING HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET.

THAT WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THAT AGENCY GOING FORWARD.

IT JUST SAYS, "OMB MEMORANDUM 25-13 IS RESCINDED.

IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT IMPLEMENTING THE PRESIDENT'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR AGENCY GENERAL COUNSEL."

THAT IS IT, TWO SENTENCES.

THE FIRST SENTENCE IS VERY CLEAR.

THEY HAVE CANCELED THE EXECUTIVE ORDER.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE CANCELED THEIR INTENTION TO TRY TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO ENGAGE IN THESE ILLEGAL CLAWBACKS.

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS TEMPORARY GOOD NEWS.

WE HAVE TO REMAIN VIGILANT.

>> TELL ME WHY YOU THINK THIS IS GOING ON.

THIS IS RESCINDING A MAJOR, WHAT YOU ALL COLD, ILLEGAL POWER GRAB THAT WAS NOT ONLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL BUT EVENTUALLY ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL.

I HEARD YOU SAY EVEN FIREFIGHTERS IN YOUR OWN STATE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEIR FUNDING WAS GOING TO COME FROM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON IN THIS WHITE HOUSE, THEN?

ARE THEY JUST HAVING IT ON, TRYING TO THROW SPAGHETTI AT THE WALL AND SEEING WHAT STICKS?

PULLING BACK AT THE FIRST SIGN OF OPPOSITION?

EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING ON.

ALSO OVER BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP, A JUDGE HAS TEMPORARILY PAUSE TO THAT.

>> WHAT I THINK IS GOING ON IS THEY ARE TRYING, THROUGH THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, TO TRY TO GRAB AS MUCH POWER AS THEY CAN AND TRY TO IMPLEMENT AS MUCH OF THE TRUMP AGENDA AS THEY CAN, THROUGH EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

BUT, WHEN IT COMES TO THE LATEST ACTION THEY ATTEMPTED, FOR EXAMPLE, TRYING TO PUT A HOLD ON ALL OF THESE FEDERAL INITIATIVES, THAT CLEARLY VIOLATED WHAT IS CALLED THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT.

PRESIDENTS CANNOT SAY I'M GOING TO, YOU KNOW, IMPLEMENTED AS PART OF THE LAW BUT I'M GOING TO IGNORE ANOTHER PART OF THE LAW.

THAT IS A TOTAL UNDERMINING OF THE BALANCE OF POWERS IN ARTICLE 1 OF THE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, AND FLOODING THE ZONE IS A GOOD TERM FOR IT, AND EFFORT IN THE FIRST EIGHT OR NINE DAYS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COME, TO GRAB POWER AND TRY TO IMPLEMENT THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA THROUGH ANY MEANS POSSIBLE, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS LEGAL OR NOT LEGAL.

THE GOOD NEWS HERE IS THAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE THIS COURT HEARING ON MONDAY.

CLEARLY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DECIDED IT WAS NOT WISE TO PROCEED.

>> BEFORE I ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK MAY HAPPEN NEXT, YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT, WHICH, FOR THOSE OF US OVERSEAS, MAYBE A LITTLE COMPLEX AND YOU CAN EXPLAIN IT.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE PIECE OF YOUR INTERACTION WITH THE INCOMING OMB DIRECTOR, RUSSELL VOUGHT, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO HIM DURING HIS TIME BEFORE YOUR COMMITTEE.

THIS IS WHAT YOU AND HE EXCHANGED.

>> WILL YOU COMPLY WITH THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT?

>> SENATOR, THE PRESIDENT RAN AGAINST THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT.

>> I KNOW WHAT THE PRESIDENT DID.

HE WANTS TO CHANGE LOTS OF THINGS.

HE CAN SUBMIT LEGISLATION TO DO THAT.

BUT, YOU ARE GOING TO BE THE HEAD OF OMB.

HERE TODAY AT THIS HEARING, YOU ARE REFUSING TO COMMIT TO COMPLY WITH THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT, IS THAT RIGHT, ARE YOU REFUSING TO COMMIT TO COMPLIANCE?

>> SENATOR, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TO GO THROUGH A POLICY PROCESS TO UNDERSTAND THE LEGAL PARAMETERS WERE OPERATING IN THE ICA.

>> I WILL RECLAIM MY TIME.

>> I GUESS YOU SORT OF PROCESS THAT HE WAS NOT GOING TO ANSWER A QUESTION ABOUT THE LAW.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU SAW IT RIGHT THERE.

HE REFUSED TO COMMIT TO FOLLOWING THE LAW.

THIS IS A NOMINEE TO BE THE HEAD OF OMB.

WE WILL HAVE A VOTE ON HIS NOMINATION TOMORROW IN THE BUDGET COMMITTEE.

I WILL VOTE NO AND I HOPE WE CAN ULTIMATELY DEFEAT HIS NOMINATION BUT REPUBLICANS ARE BEHIND IT.

CHRISTIANE, THIS IS THE PERSON WHO WAS THE HEAD OF OMB IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHO WORKED TO WITHHOLD THE FUNDS FOR UKRAINE.

THIS WAS THE MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE.

AT THAT TIME, I ASKED GAO, A WATCHDOG FOR CONGRESS, WHETHER OR NOT THEY VIOLATED THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT WHEN THEY WITHHELD THE FUNDS FOR UKRAINE AND THE ANSWER CAME BACK LOUD AND CLEAR, YES.

THAT IS WHAT THEY VIOLATED.

THEY VIOLATED THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE.

NOW THEY WANT TO DO IT ON A MASSIVE SCALE.

THAT IS WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO THROUGH THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

FORTUNATELY, THAT WAS JUST RESCINDED BUT THAT IS THE DIRECTION THEY WANT TO GO IN.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THERE NEXT MOVES IN THIS REGARD, WILL THEY TRY IT AGAIN IN A DIFFERENT MANNER AND WHAT OTHER MANNER IS OPEN TO THEM, IF IT IS NOT EXECUTIVE ORDER?

>> WELL, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH THE CONGRESS.

THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES IN THE CONGRESS, TO TRY TO PASS THEIR OWN BUDGET GOING FORWARD.

THIS WAS REALLY THEIR ONLY WAY TO TRY TO CLAWBACK PROVISIONS THAT ARE ALREADY LAW.

THAT IS WHY IT IS ILLEGAL.

THESE ARE INITIATIVES THAT HAVE BEEN ADOPTED BY CONGRESS ALREADY.

THEY PASSED BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS.

THEY WERE SIGNED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP CAN'T JUST RIDE INTO TOWN AND CHERRY PICK WHAT HE LIKES IN THE LAW AND LAMENTED THAT AND IGNORE THIS.

THAT IS WHY IT IS ILLEGAL.

BUT, HERE IS PART OF THEIR LARGER GAME PLAN.

RUSSELL VOUGHT, WHO WOULD BE THE HEAD OF OMB, WAS ALSO ONE OF THE PRIME ARCHITECTS OF THE PROJECT 2025.

THEY ARE ALREADY MOVING FORWARD ON WHAT IS CALLED SCHEDULE F. THAT IS AN INNOCUOUS SOUNDING NAME FOR A MAJOR POLICY CHANGE, WHICH WOULD DRAMATICALLY POLITICIZE THE FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE.

IT WOULD REPLACE THE MERIT-BASED CIVIL SERVICE IN OUR COUNTRY, WHERE YOU ARE SELECTED BASED ON EXPERIENCE AND QUALIFICATIONS, WITH A SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS POLITICAL HACKS TO TAKE THESE POSITIONS.

THE NUMBER OF POSITIONS IN QUESTION IS IN THE RANGE OF 50,000.

SO, THAT IS WHAT RUSSELL VOUGHT AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WANT TO DO.

THEY WANT TO HAVE THESE POLITICAL LOYALISTS, OR HACKS, IN THESE KEY POSITIONS SO THAT THEY CAN JUST TURBOCHARGE THEIR AGENDA WITHOUT ANY SORT OF LOOK TO THE CONSTITUTION OR THE LAWS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THIS IS PART AND PARCEL OF A LARGER STRATEGY.

>> SO, LET'S JUST PUT A LITTLE BIT OF THE LARGER STRATEGY.

BEFORE THE FREEZING OF FEDERAL FUNDING THEY HAD FIRED INSPECTORS GENERAL, PULLED OUT SECURITY DETAILS FROM TRUMP OPPONENTS AND HIS LOYALISTS, WHO THEY DON'T LIKE ANYMORE, WHO ARE IN DANGER FOR IMPLEMENTING HIS POLICIES ON IRAN DURING HIS FIRST TERM, PUSHING, AS YOU SAID, PUSHING FEDERAL EMPLOYEES OUT, PARDONING THE JANUARY 6 CONVICTS, THE IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN, BARRING TRANSGENDER TROOPS FROM THE MILITARY, BENDING DEI PROGRAMS, THIS IS ENORMOUS.

WHEN YOU, OBVIOUSLY TODAY YOU PROBABLY FEEL VINDICATED, YOU FEEL YOU HAVE PUSHED BACK.

THERE IS A LEGISLATURE AND A MEDIA THAT HAS BEEN ABLE TO SHOW THE FOLLY OF THIS PARTICULAR ACTION.

WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR LEVERS OF OPPOSITION TO SOME OF THESE FUNDAMENTAL ATTEMPTS TO COMPLETELY AND RADICALLY CHANGE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?

>> WELL, THE FIRST INTERMEDIATE LINE OF DEFENSE HERE ARE THE COURTS AND THAT IS WHY THESE ORGANIZATIONS WENT TO A FEDERAL JUDGE, GOT A TEMPORARY STAY.

THE HEARING WAS GOING TO BE ON MONDAY, I ASSUME THAT WILL BE CANCELED.

THAT IS THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE.

THE SECOND LINE OF DEFENSE IS THROUGH THE CONGRESS.

WHAT THEY TRIED TO PASS THROUGH THE CONGRESS, WE HAVE SOME LEVERS, ESPECIALLY IN THE SENATE, TO TRY TO SLOW THINGS DOWN OR DEFEAT THEM.

THAT SAID, THEY HAVE A MAJORITY IN THE SENATE.

THE MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE.

THERE IS A PROCEDURE IN THE SENATE CALLED BUDGET RECONCILIATION THAT WOULD ALLOW THE REPUBLICANS TO PASS ANYTHING WITH 51 VOTES AND AVOID A FILIBUSTER.

THEY HAVE A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE.

THERE NEXT PLAN OF ACTION IS TO TRY TO PUSH THROUGH THE TRUMP AGENDA THROUGH THESE VERY NARROW MAJORITIES THEY HAVE IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

NOW, IT IS GOING TO BE HARD FOR THEM TO HOLD THAT TOGETHER, THAT MAJORITY.

RIGHT NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT JUST DOES THE BIDDING OF DONALD TRUMP AS OPPOSED TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> CAN I JUST SAY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE SEEN IT, THERE IS AN IMPORTANT REUTERS POLL ESSENTIALLY SHOWING THAT CONSIDERABLE MAJORITIES OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DON'T ACTUALLY APPROVE OF SOME OF THESE FAR- REACHING ATTEMPTS TO COMPLETELY OVERTURN DECADES OF POLICY.

SO, I AM WONDERING WHETHER YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE, EVENTUALLY, THE ACTUAL PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM.

MANY OF THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM.

OR, AND I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS SOUNDBITE FROM STEPHEN MILLER, WHO IS HIS GUY IN THE WHITE HOUSE, HIS POLICY DIRECTOR IN A CONVERSATION WITH JAKE TAPPER LAST NIGHT.

I'M JUST GOING TO PLAY THIS BIT.

>> THERE HAS TO BE POLITICAL CONTROL AND REVIEW.

I CAN'T HELP IT IF LEFT-WING MEDIA OUTLETS PUBLISHED A "FAKE NEWS" STORY THAT CAUSED CONFUSION.

IF YOU READ THE OMB GUIDANCE MEMO , IT IS, IF YOU READ THE OMB GUIDANCE MEMO, IT IS AS CLEAR AS DAY.

>> THAT WAS LAST NIGHT.

TONIGHT, THE SAME WHITE HOUSE IS RESCINDING THE MEMO.

THIS WAS ABOUT THE RADICAL EFFECT THEY TRIED TO IMPOSE EARLIER THIS WEEK.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

CHRIS, STEPHEN MILLER HAS AN AGENDA.

HE HAS WORKED WITH RUSSELL VOUGHT, THEY HAVE WORKED ON PROJECT 2025 FOR YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS AND NOW THEY ARE ABSENT IN IT.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL LAND ON ALL OF THIS?

>> I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, INCLUDING ALL OF THOSE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, ARE NOT GETTING WHAT THEY BARGAINED FOR, CERTAINLY IN THE FIRST EIGHT DAYS.

ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS DONALD TRUMP DID, OF COURSE, WAS TO PARDON THE VISUALS WHO HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF ASSAULTING HIM A BEATING, AND BLOCKING POLICE OFFICERS.

THAT IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP WANT TO SEE.

NOW WE SEE ALL THESE OTHER ACTIONS.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO FOCUS ON WHAT HAPPENED AT THE INAUGURAL.

WHEN DONALD TRUMP TALKED ABOUT A GOLDEN AGE FOR AMERICAN WHO WAS BEHIND HIM?

HE HAD THE BILLIONAIRE HEADS OF THE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES.

THEY GOT BETTER SEATS THAN PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE IN DONALD TRUMP'S CABINET.

SO, WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE "GOLDEN AGE FOR AMERICA," HE'S TALKING ABOUT HUGE TAX GIVEAWAYS TO THE MOST WEALTHY AND POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY, AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYBODY ELSE.

YOU ASKED ME WHAT COMES NEXT, THEY ARE GOING TO TRY TO PASS TRUMP TAX CUTS 2.0, WHICH WILL OVERWHELMINGLY BENEFIT THE VERY VERY WEALTHY AND BIG CORPORATIONS, AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

I THINK THAT WILL BE A REAL WAKE-UP CALL TO THE COUNTRY AND THERE WILL BE A SENSE OF BETRAYAL FROM PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, THINKING THAT HE WAS THE GUY OUT TO HELP WORKING PEOPLE, WHEN IN FACT IT IS JUST THE TECHNOLOGY TITANS WHO ARE BEHIND HIM AT THE INAUGURAL ADDRESS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ONE OF THE FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES.

OBVIOUSLY HAS DECLARED, AND APPARENTLY HAD AN INCREDIBLY HEATED AND PROFANITY LADEN CONVERSATION WITH THE MINISTER OF DENMARK OVER WANTING GREENLAND.

AND THEN THERE IS THE PANAMA CANAL AND THERE IS, NOW ON GAZA, HE SAID THAT, AND HE SAID IT TO PEOPLE ON THE WHITE HOUSE AIR FORCE ONE, "THE BEST PLAN FOR GAZA IS TO POTENTIALLY CLEAN OUT THE WHOLE THING."

DO YOU FEAR, AND YOU HAD SEVERE CRITICISMS AND DIFFERENCES WITH YOUR OWN ADMINISTRATION, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, OVER THEIR POLICY TO THE ISRAEL GAZA WAR WHEN WE FIRST TALKED IN MAY.

DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE OFFICIAL U.S. FOREIGN POLICY COULD BE, ESSENTIALLY, ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA OR THE WEST BANK?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT, THAT IS WHAT IT WOULD BE, BY ANOTHER NAME.

THIS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS IDEA PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ADVANCED.

IT IS AN IDEA THAT IS WELCOMED BY THE FARTHEST RIGHT ELEMENTS IN THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

PEOPLE LIKE SMOTRICH ARE CHEERING ON THIS IDEA FROM THE PRESIDENT.

THE IDEA THAT 2 MILLION PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE DISPLACED, DEPORTED FROM GAZA, OBVIOUSLY IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

MORALLY, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THAT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FIND THEIR WAY FORWARD, EVEN AMIDST THE DESTRUCTION THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN GAZA CAN DO IT.

OF COURSE, THE EGYPTIANS OR JORDANIANS MADE CLEAR THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THE DONALD TRUMP PLAN.

IT IS A VERY BAD SIGN, CHRISTIANE, OF WHERE THE PRESIDENTS HEAD IS RIGHT NOW ON ALL THESE ISSUES.

I REALLY HOPE OTHER PEOPLE AROUND HIM WILL BRING SOME SENSE TO THE SITUATION.

I HOPE YOU WILL LIKE STEVE WITKOFF WILL BRING THE PRESIDENT A LITTLE BIT OF COMMON SENSE AT THIS MOMENT.

>> IN FACT, OF COURSE, AS YOU SAY, HE IS THE MIDDLE EAST ENVOY FOR THE PRESIDENT AND HE WAS IN GAZA.

SENATOR, THANK YOU.

I KNOW YOU ARE COMING ONTO AN EMERGENCY CAUCUS OF YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE AND IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO KNOW AFTERWARDS WHAT YOU ALL DECIDED ON HOW TO REACT.

VERY INTERESTING TO HAVE YOU AS THIS BREAKING NEWS ON THIS BIG ISSUE TODAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> MEANWHILE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CONTINUING ITS CRACKDOWN ON EMIGRANTS, EVEN THOSE WITH LEGAL PROTECTION IN THE UNITED STATES, ANNOUNCING TODAY THAT THEY ARE ROLLING BACK BIDEN EVER PROTECTIONS FOR VENEZUELANS, FOR INSTANCE, CLEARING THE WAY FOR MORE DEPORTATIONS AS PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP PURSUES A HARDLINE IMMIGRATION AGENDA.

FOR MORE ON WHAT THIS POLICY ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE, CORRESPONDENT DAVID CULVER SPEAKS TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED IT AND ARE DOING SO IN THIS REPORT FROM GUATEMALA.

>> Reporter: STEPPING OFF THE COMMERCIAL CHARTER AND ONTO, THE CITY'S MILITARY TARMAC, 124 MIGRANTS DEPORTED FOR ILLEGALLY ENTERING THE U.S. NOW, BACK HOME.

THEY PROCESS PAST OFFICIALS, INCLUDING THE COUNTRY'S VICE PRESIDENT AND INTO A RECEPTION HALL.

COOKIES AND COFFEE A WEEK.

ONE BY ONE, THEY ARE CALLED UP TO BE OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED.

THAT IS A CHANGE FROM THEIR STATUS IN THE U.S. >> SHE LIVED 10 YEARS IN THE U.S. AND ALABAMA.

SHE DID ROOFING, CONSTRUCTION, AND CAR REPAIR WHILE IN THE U.S. FROM HERE WE MEET SARA TORPATORS.

SHE HAS A CRIMINAL RECORD INCLUDING CHILD ENDANGERMENT.

SHE WAS SHOPPING AT A MARKET WITH HER GRANDSON AND SHE SAID HE DIDN'T HAVE A CAR SEAT AND SHE WAS PULLED OVER AS THEY BELIEVE IN THE WALMART BY A POLICE OFFICER IN ALABAMA.

SHE WENT TO JAIL FOR TWO MONTHS AND WAS DETAINED FOR FIVE MORE MONTHS BY IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS IN LOUISIANA BEFORE BEING SENT BACK HERE.

SHE IS ACTUALLY GRATEFUL, THANKING GOD FOR PUTTING BACK.

DO YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO THE U.S.?

NO.

SARA TORPATORS, SEEMINGLY UNCOMFORTABLE, SPEAKING WITH US IN WHAT SHE IS WEARING.

SHE IS EAGER TO GET TO HER BACK, WHICH SITS IN A PILE OF PLASTIC SACKS STAPLED SHUT.

AND SHE GOES TO THE BATHROOM TO CHANGE, WE MEET FIDEL AMBROSIO.

HOW MANY YEARS DID YOU LIVE IN THE U.S.?

19 YEARS ?

>> I AM SCARED.

WE ARE NOT CRIMINALS, YOU KNOW.

>> Reporter: YOU HAVE A TRESPASSING CONVICTION?

>> YES.

>> Reporter: ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO STAY HERE?

OR DO YOU THINK YOU WILL GO BACK QUESTION THAT >> I HAVE TO GO BACK .

>> Reporter: YOU WILL FIND A WAY BACK?

>> YES .

>> Reporter: WHILE FIDEL AMBROSIO WALKS REALLY, OTHERS ARE PULLED ASIDE BY GOT A MOMENT POLICE, ACCUSED OF CRIMES NOT ONLY IN THE U.S.

BUT ALSO IN THEIR HOMELAND.

THEY REQUIRE A LOT OF RESOURCES SO AS TO REINTEGRATE THE RETURNEES.

WHAT A MOTHER'S VICE PRESIDENT TELLS ME IT'S ABOUT THE SAME NUMBER, THOUGH, THAT HAVE BEEN ARRIVING IN RECENT YEARS UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

THOUGH, SHE SAYS THAT THE USE OF U.S. MILITARY PLANS, WHICH QUITE WELL IS PERMITTING, HE IS NEW UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

BACK IN THE RECEPTION HALL, WE ALMOST DON'T RECOGNIZE SARA TORPATORS.

SHE HAS CHANGED INTO HER INDIGENOUS WARDROBE AND FEELS MORE AT HOME, NOW READY TO STEP OUT .

AND, REUNITE WITH HER DAUGHTER.

>> THAT IS THE VIEW FROM GUATEMALA.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PUT ALLIES FROM COLUMBIA TO DENMARK ON THE BACK FOOT.

>>> IN THE MIDDLE EAST, PALESTINIANS REFUSE TO BE "CLEANED OUT" OF GAZA, AS HE HAS ADJUSTED.

THE EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT AND JORDANIAN KING REFUSE TO BE DESTINATIONS FOR WHAT SOME ARE LABELING "ETHNIC CLEANSING."

FOR THE MOMENT, THE CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA REMAINS INTACT, WITH ANOTHER HOSTAGE AND PRISONER RELEASE EXPECTED TOMORROW.

WHAT ARE THE NECESSARY NEXT STEPS?

LET'S BRING IN A FORMER CATHOLIC PRIEST TURNED NEGOTIATOR WHO REGULARLY SPEAKS WITH BOTH ISRAELI AND HAMAS OFFICIALS, EVEN TODAY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I JUST START BY TALKING ABOUT THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS MOVING FROM ONE DEVASTATED PART OF GAZA, WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN HERDED BACK TO THEIR HOMES IN ANOTHER DEVASTATED PART OF GAZA.

WHEN YOU SEE THAT AND YOU YOU ALL THE NOISE THAT IS GOING AROUND THE WHAT COMES TO MIND ABOUT THEM?

>> ONE WORD, RESILIENCE.

I THINK WHAT I HAVE FOUND OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS IN MY REGULAR VISITS TO GAZA, AND HAVING WITNESSED FIVE FLOORS, THERE IS A REMARKABLE RESILIENCE, PARTICULARLY IN GAZA AND ATTACHMENT TO WHAT PART OF GAZA AND YOU LIVE IN.

I THINK IT IS PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE THAT, IF YOU HAVE BEEN DEPORTED, AS IT WERE, TO THE SOUTH, YOU WILL WANT TO RETURN TO YOUR PATCH.

>> SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN NOT JUST TALKING TO THESE SITES, YOU HAVE BEEN IN CONFLICT RESOLUTION THERE AND ELSEWHERE FOR SO LONG, WHEN YOU HEAR WHAT WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S OWN COMMENTS ABOUT "CLEANING OUT GAZA" IN SUGGESTING THE EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT TAKE 1.5 MILLION, HE SAID, AND SUGGESTING THE KING OF JORDAN, OBVIOUSLY WOULD TAKE THE OTHERS, BOTH OF THOSE HAVE REFUSED, BOTH THOSE LEADERS.

BUT, THE PALESTINIANS HAVE SAID WE WON'T ACCEPT IT.

DO YOU THINK THEY WILL BE ABLE TO RESIST, WILL THEY HAVE A CHOICE?

>> I THINK THEY WILL.

WHAT HAS WORRIED ME FROM THE BEGINNING IS OF THE TACTICS SEEM TO BE TO MAKE GAZA ON THE FOOTBALL AND THEREFORE IT WOULD HAVE INVOLUNTARY MIGRATION.

THEIR FAMILIES WOULD BE SO DESPERATE, THEY COULDN'T PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

THEY WOULD HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTH, NO ACCESS TO EDUCATION FOR NO LEGAL SYSTEM TO ATTACK THEM.

AND, IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES, IT WOULD BE UNDERSTANDABLE THAT SOME, AND I STRESS SOME, MAY OPT, IF THERE WAS AN OPTION, TO GO ELSEWHERE, SIMPLY TO SURVIVE.

BUT, I THINK I COME BACK TO THE WORD RESILIENCE.

MOST GAZANS HARBOR A DEEP ATTACHMENT TO THE LAND.

THEY ARE ALSO RESILIENT.

IT WAS SO UNFORTUNATE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP USED TO THOSE WORDS "CLEAN OUT."

MY SUSPICION IS THAT HE HAS BEEN VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY THE LITTLE GROUP AROUND HIM.

RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR, AND GOING BACK NOW TO NOVEMBER 2023, I WAS IN THE KNESSET, AND IT WAS EXCELLENT BY SOME, AND NOT ALL WOULD HAVE GONE ALONG WITH THIS, BUT BY SOME, NOT JUST BEN-GVIR AND SMOTRICH'S BUT ALSO THE LIKKUD, THAT THE GOAL WAS TO PRESSURIZE PRESIDENT ABDEL FATTAH EL-SISI TO OPEN UP THE BORDER WITH EGYPT AND MAKE SINAI TO THE PLATE WITH THE WHOLE POPULATION OF GAZA WERE TO GO AND MOVE THE WHOLE POPULATION OF THE WEST BANK OF JORDAN NORTH SOLDIER WOULD HAVE A REMAKING.

NOW, THERE WAS A THEOLOGICAL THESIS OF THIS AND THIS IS WHERE I THINK THE INFLUENCE AROUND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS.

THEY TALKED ABOUT A JUDEO- CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING, THAT THIS WAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO IMPOSE THE THIRD COMMONWEALTH.

SOLOMON HAD THE FIRST IN HEBRON, THE SECOND WAS WITH DAVID AND THE TABLE.

OCTOBER 7th GAVE THEM, AND I AM QUOTING, GAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO INTRODUCE THE THIRD COMMONWEALTH, WE ARE FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, YOU WOULD HAVE THE JEWISH COMMONWEALTH AND THERE WOULDN'T BE SPACE FOR PALESTINIANS.

>> IT IS INTERESTING TO SPEAK IN THOSE WORDS, REFLECTING WHAT THEY SAY, IN RELIGIOUS TERMS.

YOU WOULD YOURSELF ARE RELIGIOUS, I GUESS.

YOU WERE A CATHOLIC PRIEST BUT VERY STEEPED IN THIS CONFLICT MEDIATION AND TRYING TO FIND SOLUTIONS IN AND YOU HAVE BEEN FOR A LONG, LONG TIME IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ELSEWHERE.

THERE IS, CURRENTLY THE CEASE- FIRE IS HOLDING.

THERE SEEM TO BE REGULAR HOSTAGE AND PRISONER RELEASES.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF DOUBT AS TO WHETHER ANY SECOND PHASE, I MEAN THE FIRST PHASE WAS MEANT TO BE A SORT OF A FRAMEWORK FOR TALKING ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN A SECOND PHASE.

FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO PLAY WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE ANTHONY LINCOLN TOLD ME DAYS BEFORE HE LEFT OFFICE, ASK THEM ABOUT WITH THE THE SECOND PHASE WAS STARTED.

WE SPOKE ON THE DAY THE CEASE- FIRE WAS ANNOUNCED.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID IT, IT IS NOT STARTED.

WE WORKED ON IT INTENSELY OVER THE LAST SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS, INTENSELY BUT QUIETLY WITH OUR PARTNERS AND OTHERS.

THERE ARE BASIC UNDERSTANDINGS WE HAVE REACHED BUT THE CEASE- FIRE ITSELF, HOPEFULLY, WOULD CONCENTRATE MINDS AND GET PEOPLE TO AGREE ON WHAT IS NECESSARY, TO GET THAT DAY AFTER, POST CONFLICT PLAN IN PLACE.

>> HE BASICALLY SAID IT IS NOT STARTED.

IT IS LITERALLY UP TO THE POLITICAL WILL OF WHOEVER COMES NEXT IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE REGION.

FROM YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH ISRAELIS AND WITH HAMAS POLITICAL LEADERS, WHO YOU TALKED TO, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT THE SECOND PHASE MIGHT LOOK LIKE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT IS REVOCABLE THAT, WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE EGYPTIANS, THE QATARIS WERE ABLE TO GET SOME FORMAT.

BUT, IT WAS TORTUROUS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, IT IS A TORTUOUS AGREEMENT, FRAUGHT WITH RISK.

I HAVE DESCRIBED IT AS A "SPOILERS DREAM" BECAUSE OF THE LONG, DRAWNOUT WAY IN WHICH IT IS DONE AND CERTAINLY BECAUSE OF THE UNCERTAINTY ALONG THE WAY.

THERE IS NO, NORMALLY WHEN YOU HAVE AN AGREEMENT, IT IS TIGHT AND YOU HAVE GIVEN TWINS THAT THEY WILL STAND BY IT.

THIS TIME, THERE IS A BUILT IN FLEX ABILITY.

I THINK IT IS THE ONLY THING THE NEGOTIATORS COULD ACHIEVE.

BUT, THE RISK, I THINK, IS A VERY, VERY GREAT FOR SPOILERS TO CREATE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WILL JUSTIFY A BREAKDOWN.

I THINK THERE'S ONE PERSON, AND ONE PERSON ONLY YOU CAN GUARANTEE THE SECOND STAGE.

ANTONY BLINKEN WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT AND THAT IS DONALD TRUMP.

AS PRESIDENT, HE HAS THE POWER.

BECAUSE, RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS, WHAT MADE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A TIGHT AGREEMENT THAT WOULD HOLD WAS THE FACT THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU DECLARED TWO GOALS.

THE FIRST GOAL WAS TO SEE THE TOTAL DEMISE OF HAMAS.

THE SECOND WAS TO SEE THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES.

NOW, ANYONE WOULD SAY THOSE ARE TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE.

HOW CAN YOU ACHIEVE A SORT OF AGREEMENT ON THOSE LINES?

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE THERE IS A DEBATE INSIDE ISRAEL AND MAYBE ELSEWHERE, ABOUT THAT VERY ISSUE.

BECAUSE WE REMEMBER THAT THE IMAGES LEADING TO THE FIRST HOSTAGE RELEASE BY NEGOTIATION BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 2023, WERE MUCH MORE SUBDUED FROM THE HAMAS PERSPECTIVE THAN THE CURRENT ONE.

THEY ARE OUT THERE, THEY ARE IN FULL BATTLE GEAR, WEAPONS, AND WE ARE HERE, WE ARE IN CONTROL.

THAT MUST BE CAUSING A LOT OF STRESS IN ISRAEL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR GAZA?

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WOULD CLAIM THAT THEY GOT TO WHERE THEY ARE BECOMES OF THE MILITARY PRESSURE THAT HE HAD PUT ON HAMAS.

HIS FIRST GOAL, THAT IS WHAT GOT THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES THE OTHER DAY.

BIDEN AGREED WITH THAT.

HE SAID THE PRESSURE FROM MAY TO NOW DID THAT.

VERY INTERESTING, THE PRIME MINISTER OF QATAR, IN AN INTERVIEW, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERSEEING THE NEGOTIATIONS, SAID IT WASN'T THAT.

IT WAS MEDIATION, NOT BOMBING, THAT SAW THE RELEASE OF THOSE HOSTAGES.

I WOULD AGREE.

IF YOU SEE THE FIRST RELEASE WAY BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 23, IT WAS A MUCH MORE MODEST AFFAIR.

IT WAS CONDUCTED AT NIGHT THROUGH A VERY CAUTIOUS, CAREFUL, NO DISPLAY OF ANYTHING AT ALL THAT WAS OFFENSIVE TO ANYONE BUT A REAL EFFORT TO MAKE THIS WORK.

NOW, WE SEE WHAT I'M SAYING A DISPLAY OF DEFIANCE.

THAT, TO ME, APPROVED THE QUESTION THAT ACTUALLY MILITARY PRESSURE INCREASES RESISTANCE.

>> AND, THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF NEW RECRUITS.

EVEN ANTONY BLINKEN, BEFORE HIS LEFT OFFICE, SAID THEIR INTELLIGENCE SUGGESTS HAMAS HAVE RECRUITED AS MANY FOOT SOLDIERS AS THEY LOST UNDER THE ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT.

I WOULD ASK YOU THIS.

BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY AMERICANS, PERHAPS SOME IN ISRAEL, ALSO HOPE THAT GUARANTORS WOULD BE SAUDI ARABIA, WOULD BE THE UAE, WOULD BE MAYBE AN INTERNATIONAL PEACEKEEPING FORCE TO KEEP CONTROL IN GAZA.

BUT, IN ONE OF YOUR FORMS, ONE OF THE HAMAS POLITICAL LEADERS SAID THAT ON NO ACCOUNT WOULD THEY ALLOW ANY FOREIGN TROOPS, ANY ARAB TROOPS, ANY TROOPS INTO GAZA.

I MEAN, THAT SEEMED TO BE PRETTY SHOCKING TO ME.

THEY ARE NOT OPEN TO THAT AT ALL.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS ONLY HAMAS.

I AM IN REGULAR TOUCH WITH A VARIETY OF PEOPLE IN GAZA AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED RIGHT THE WAY THROUGH THIS LAST 15 MONTHS.

BUT, ARE STILL VERY MUCH CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE DAY AFTER IS GOING TO BE ONCE THERE IS PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE AND BEGIN THE RECONSTRUCTION IN DOLLARS AND.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT NOW THE BUILDING RECONSTRUCTION OR INFRASTRUCTURE BUT THE SOCIAL FABRIC OF GAZA, ONCE THAT BEGINS.

THEY ARE VERY, VERY KEEN OF TWO THINGS.

THERE IS A CONSENSUS BETWEEN ALL FACTIONS IN GAZA ON THIS, THAT IT SHOULD BE DRIVEN BY PEOPLE IN GAZA, PEOPLE WHO KNOW GAZA AND THERE IS A VERY MUCH TALK THAT THE POLICE, WHICH THE MAJORITY OF THE POLICE IN GAZA, THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE HAMAS, THEY ARE SIMPLY THERE FOR A JOB.

THAT THAT POLICE FORCE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE CRIMINALS, THEY KNOW THE SPOILERS, THEY KNOW THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE CONTAINED, AS IN ANY SOCIETY.

I THINK TO BRING FOREIGNERS IN, FOR ME, I THINK WOULD BE A MISTAKE.

>> YET SO MANY OF THE PEACE TREATIES OR PEACE MOMENTS, NOT EVEN PEACE, CEASE-FIRE MOMENTS I HAVE COVERED REQUIRE SOME KIND OF EXTERNAL -- >> LOOK AT LEBANON.

THAT HASN'T BEEN MUCH OF A SUCCESS WITH EXTERNAL FORCES.

I THINK WHAT YOU NEED, NOW, AND THE ONLY WAY WE WILL BREAK THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE, IS ONCE AND FOR ALL TO ADDRESS THE CORE ISSUE.

AND, THE CORE ISSUE IS NOT WHO POLICES OR MANAGES THE COMA OR THE RELATIVE CALM.

IT IS BASICALLY TACKLING OCCUPATION.

I THINK UNLESS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS GOING TO ADDRESS OCCUPATION IN TERMS OF THE YOU AND GOING BACK TO 1948, LOOKING AT WHAT WAS AGREED IN 67, SAYING THOSE ARE THE INTERNATIONAL NORMS OR STANDARDS THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT ON AND OCCUPATION, DECLARE A PALESTINIAN STATE, I THINK WE MUST HAVE THE POLITICAL COURAGE TO DO THAT IF WE WANT TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE.

>> ON A PERSONAL NOTE, YOU POSTED SOME IMAGES OF A KINDERGARTEN YOU AND YOUR LATE WIFE HAD HELPED FUND AND RUN IN GAZA AND NOW IT IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

WE ARE SHOWING THIS AND MAYBE THERE ARE SOME BEFORE PICTURES.

WHAT DOES THIS SAY TO YOU?

THIS WAR HAS AFFECTED YOU PERSONALLY BUT ALSO THE CHILDREN, OBVIOUSLY.

SO MANY OF THEM WERE KILLED.

>> IT IS A HUMAN TRAGEDY WHAT WE HAVE WITNESSED OVER THE PAST 15 MONTHS.

YOU SEE THE JOY, THE BEAUTY THERE.

THE GREAT VISION THAT THE FOUNDER OF THAT KINDERGARTEN HAD.

SHE IS A REMARKABLE LADY.

SHE IS, IN FACT, IN HER OWN BUILDINGS THAT HAVE BEEN DESTROYED, THE FAMILY BUILDINGS IN RAFAH ON THE BEACH, IN A TENT THEY SET UP A SCHOOL WHERE THEY WERE EDUCATING 100 CHILDREN RIGHT THROUGH THIS WAR.

THAT IS THE SORT OF PERSON.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT, HOPEFULLY WE WILL BE ABLE TO RESTORE THIS.

BECAUSE, THOSE CHILDREN HAVE LIVED THROUGH TRAUMA.

THEY WERE TRYING TO ADDRESS THAT TRAUMA PRIOR TO THIS WAR.

GOD ONLY KNOWS WHERE WE WILL BE NOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED ABOUT ANTONY BLINKEN SIDING THEY HAD EVIDENCE OF 10,000, 15,000 RECRUITS OF HAMAS INTO THE WAR.

THE FRIGHTENING FIGURE I WAS GIVEN, AND IN GOOD AUTHORITY, 60% OF THE FACTORS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR WERE ORPHANS FROM THE WAR IN 2014.

IT IS THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE THAT NEEDS TO BE BROKEN.

>> OLIVER McTERNAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH .

VERY FORWARD THINKING, THANK YOU INDEED.

>>> NEXT, SHE IS THE WHITE HOUSE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF STAFF AND NOW SUSIE WILES, WHO LED HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, IS UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT AS SHE ATTEMPTS TO NAVIGATE AND DIRECT TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE.

GIVEN HIS FIRST TERM SAW FOUR CHIEFS OF STAFF, OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES SUSIE WILES MAY BE "TRUMP'S BEST HOPE."

JOURNALIST CHRIS WHIPPLE SPOKE TO ALL LIVING CHIEFS OF STAFF FOR HIS BOOK "THE GATEKEEPERS," AND HE NOW JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS IT.

>> CHRIS WHIPPLE, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF THINGS IN YOUR CAREER.

BUT, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS YOU HAVE DONE, FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, WHO IS IN WASHINGTON, YOU HAVE WRITTEN A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT THE INTER- WORKINGS OF THE WHITE HOUSE, SPECIFICALLY FOCUSING ON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF.

FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN SO FORTUNATE AS TO SIT IN THE BRIEFINGS AND WATCH THESE PEOPLE DO THEIR THING, WHAT IS THAT PERSON'S ROLE?

>> THE BOOK I READ WAS CALLED "THE GATEKEEPERS," AND WAS A REVELATION TO ME, BECAUSE, IT TURNS OUT THAT THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL JOB IN GOVERNMENT .

EVERY PRESIDENT LEARNS, OFTEN THE HARD WAY, THAT YOU CANNOT GOVERN EFFECTIVELY WITHOUT EMPOWERING A WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF TO DO ANY NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO EXECUTE YOUR AGENDA AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

THAT IS A CHALLENGE WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

IT IS A CRITICAL JOB.

I REALLY BELIEVE IT WHEN THE SUBTITLE OF MY BOOK IS "HOW THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF DEFINE EVERY PRESIDENCY," AND, TO SOME EXTENT, THEY REALLY DO.

>> SOME CHIEFS OF STAFF ARE, EVEN IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW POLITICS CLOSELY, THERE ARE SOME THINGS YOU MIGHT KNOW OF.

PEOPLE LIKE JAMES A. BAKER, FORMER SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY AND A SECRETARY OF STATE.

OR, KEN DUBERSTEIN OR LEON PANETTA, AS YOU MENTIONED, SOMEBODY WHO HAS HIS OWN PUBLIC PROFILE.

EVEN MAYBE RAHM EMANUEL.

BUT, THAT IS OF THE EXCEPTION, I LEARNED FROM YOUR BOOK.

THAT IS THE EXCEPTION.

>> THEY ARE OFTEN UNHERALDED.

THERE ARE VARIOUS MODELS.

CERTAINLY JIM BAKER AND LEON PANETTA AND RAHM EMANUEL, THEY WERE PEOPLE EVERYBODY KNEW ABOUT.

BUT, THERE ARE OTHERS IN THE MOLD OF, FOR EXAMPLE, JEFF ZIENTS, WHO WAS JOE BIDEN'S LAST WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, WHO REALLY WAS A SUPERB MANAGER.

BUT, AND UNDER THE RADAR AND INTROVERTED PERSON.

THAT MAY VERY WELL BE THE MODEL FOR SUSIE WILES, WHO IS ALSO SOMEONE WHO IS NOT EXTROVERTED BY ANY MEANS, WHO DOESN'T NEED THE ATTENTION OR WANTED.

SHE IS GOING TO TRY TO MAKE THIS EXECUTE TRUMP'S AGENDA, BUT WITHOUT TRYING TO STEAL THE SPOTLIGHT, WHICH WILL BE JUST FINE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SUSIE WILES.

A DEPARTURE, IT SEEMS, FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

HE HAD FOUR CHIEFS OF STAFF AND NONE OF THOSE RELATIONSHIPS SEEMED TO HAVE ENDED PARTICULARLY WELL.

HE WROTE AN OP-ED ABOUT HER AND WHAT ROLE SHE MAY PLAY IN THIS NEXT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

FIRST OF ALL, I WAS FASCINATED TO REALIZE THAT SHE IS PAT SUMMERALL STARTER.

PAT SUMMERALL BEING A FAMOUS NFL BROADCASTER, FORMER PLAYER.

THAT WAS NEWS TO ME.

WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO BE NEWS TO US ABOUT SUSIE WILES?

>> SHE IS AN ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING CHARACTER.

HE POINTED OUT ONE THING ABOUT HER, THAT IS REALLY INTRIGUING.

AMONG OTHER THINGS, SHE IS THE FIRST WOMAN EVER TO SERVE IN THIS JOB, THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL JOB IN GOVERNMENT.

AND, I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE FASCINATING TO WATCH.

SHE IS SOMEONE WHO HAS THIS UNCANNY ABILITY TO IMPOSE AT LEAST SOME DISCIPLINE ON TRUMP'S DISORDER.

NOBODY HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT BEFORE.

SHE WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT SHE DOESN'T MANAGE TRUMP, TRUMP IS UNMANAGEABLE.

BUT, SHE HAS FIGURED OUT SOME SORT OF MODUS VIVENDI.

SHE CHOOSES HER FIGHTS CAREFULLY AND SHE HAS LASTED A LONG TIME.

HE TRUSTS HER.

SHE HAS CHARM AND ABUNDANCE AND SHE WILL NEED EVERY BIT OF IT TO SUCCEED.

TEMPERAMENT IS AN UNDERRATED QUALITY AMONG THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEFS BUT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

JAMES BAKER HAD IT, LEON PANETTA HAD IT, SUSIE WILES HAS IT.

FINALLY, SHE, I THINK, WILL HAVE AN ADVANTAGE AS A WOMAN.

THE WOMEN IN TRUMP WORLD LEARNED NOT TO COMPETE WITH TRUMP OR TRY TO BE EQUALS.

SUSIE WILES HAS MASTERED THAT.

AND CAN YOU MENTIONED HER FATHER, PAT SUMMERALL.

BOTH SHE AND TRUMP GREW UP WITH A VERY DIFFICULT FATHERS.

FRED TRUMP WAS A COLD FISH.

PAT SUMMERALL WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND HE WAS AN ALCOHOLIC.

HE CREDITED HER, SUSIE WILES, WITH GETTING HIM INTO TREATMENT.

I THINK SUSIE WILES WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT HAVEN'T DEALT WITH HER FATHER, WHOM, WHICH WAS A REAL CHALLENGE, REALLY HELPED HER TO PREPARE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

SHE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT HANDLING DIFFICULT MEN.

>> WHAT IS HER ATTRACTION TO POLITICS?

HOW DID SHE GET INTO IT AND HOW DID SHE AND TRUMP GET CONNECTED?

'S >> SHE WAS A 23-YEAR-OLD SCHEDULER FOR RONALD REAGAN AND LATER WORKED IN THE LABOR DEPARTMENT.

PRIOR TO THAT, SHE, RIGHT OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, SHE WORKED FOR CONGRESSMAN JACK KEMP, THE PRO FOOTBALL PLAYER.

THAT WAS A JOB PAT SUMMERALL HELPED TO ARRANGE FOR HER.

SHE BECAME ADDICTED TO IT, TO POLITICS, AND SPENT HER WHOLE CAREER IN FLORIDA.

SHE WAS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, SHE REALLY RAN THE WINNING CAMPAIGN FOR RON DeSANTIS FOR GOVERNOR.

AND THEN THEY HAD AN UGLY FALLING OUT, VERY BITTER FALLING OUT.

IT IS STILL A MYSTERY.

I HAVE ASKED HER ABOUT IT AND, TO THIS DAY, SHE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND PRECISELY WHY RON DeSANTIS TURNED ON HER.

BUT, HE DID, VICIOUSLY AND REALLY TRIED TO DESTROY HER CAREER.

TRUMP RESCUED HER AND SHE, HE WAS GRATEFUL TO HER FOR HAVING CARRIED FLORIDA FOR HIM IN TWO ELECTIONS AND SHE ENDED UP BECOMING THE COCHAIR, BUT REALLY FIRST AMONG EQUALS, AS THE HEAD OF HIS 2024 CAMPAIGN.

>> WHAT IS SHE GOOD AT?

>> SHE IS INCREDIBLY ORGANIZED AND SHE KNOWS THAT SHE IS JUST A VERY SMART AND SAVVY POLITICAL OPERATIVE.

SHE UNDERSTANDS HOW TO, SHE IS A GREAT MANAGER.

HER SUPERPOWER SEEMS TO BE HER ABILITY TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

SHE IS VERY GOOD AT MANAGING HIM.

AND I PUT MANAGING IN QUOTES.

>> WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE OF THAT, CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?

>> SHE CERTAINLY HAD HER SHARE OF MOMENTS OF TRUTH WITH TRUMP AND ONE OF THEM CAME WHEN TRUMP CALLED HER TO A MEETING WITH SEVERAL WITNESSES AND TRIED TO INTIMIDATE HER, COMPLAINED THAT SHE WASN'T UP TO THE JOB, AND TURNED TO THE OTHERS IN THE ROOM AND SAID, WHAT DO YOU THINK, SHOULD I FIRE HER?

HE WAS TRYING TO HUMILIATE HER.

SHE RETREATED BUT SHE DIDN'T RUN AWAY.

AND, SHE CAME BACK TO LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY AND SHE CAME BACK TO TRUMP SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

AND, SHE SAID DON'T EVER DO THAT.

I'M PARAPHRASING THAT BUT "DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN."

TRUMP SAID "I WON'T HAVE TO."

>> AND RECENT OP-ED, YOU WROTE, "KEN DUBERSTEIN ONCE OBSERVED THAT CAMPAIGNING IS TRYING TO DESTROY YOUR OPPONENT WHILE GOVERNING IS MAKING FRIENDS WITH THEM."

IN HIS FIRST TERM AS PRESIDENT, TRUMP DID NOT GET THE DIFFERENCE AND HIS TENURE WAS OVERWHELMED BY DESTRUCTION AND CHAOS.

>> TRUMP HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE DIFFERENCE.

>> I HAVEN'T SEEN HE'S TRYING TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH ANYBODY.

I DO SEE THAT HE'S TRYING TO EXERT HIS WILL.

I AM JUST WONDERING WHAT DOES SUSIE WILES TO ABOUT THAT?

OR IS THE CONSTRUCT FROM KEN DUBERSTEIN NO LONGER RELEVANT?

>> THAT IS WHY IT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT JOB IN WASHINGTON BAR NONE.

IT IS THANKLESS, IT IS RELENTLESS.

IT IS 24/7.

THEN IT IS ESPECIALLY MORE DIFFICULT WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

WHEN I INTERVIEWED REINCE PRIEBUS SHORTLY AFTER HE STEPPED DOWN AS TRUMP'S CHIEF OF STAFF DURING HIS FIRST TERM, THE FIRST THING HE SAID TO ME WAS, "CHRIS, TAKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE HEARD AND MULTIPLY IT BY 50."

THOSE WERE THE FIGHTS HE CLAIMED HE WAS FIGHTING BEHIND THE SCENES THAT NOBODY KNEW ABOUT.

IT IS A HUGE CHALLENGE FOR SUSIE WILES, NOT LEAST BECAUSE TRUMP HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CAMPAIGNING AND GOVERNING.

KEN DUBERSTEIN IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

CAMPAIGNING, YOU TRY TO DESTROY YOUR OPPONENTS AND TRUMP HAS A GENIUS FOR, A FERAL GENIUS.

HE HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS OR CUT DEALS ON CAPITOL HILL.

THAT IS WHY HIS FIRST TERM WAS SO UNPRODUCTIVE.

IT IS ONE THING TO PUT JUDGES ON THE BENCH, IT IS ANOTHER THING TO REPEAL AND REPLACE OBAMACARE OR PASS INFRASTRUCTURE OR OTHER BILATERAL THINGS.

SO FAR, WE HAVE SEEN FROM TRUMP, HAS BEEN THIS FIREHOSE OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND PROCLAMATIONS, SOME EGREGIOUS, SOME UNLAWFUL OR UNCONSTITUTIONAL, SOME DUBIOUS.

AND IT IS NOT A GOOD SIGN, I HAVE TO SAY.

FOR SUSIE WILES OR FOR TRUMP AS IT SUGGESTS, WHEN IT COMES TO SUSIE WILES, SHE IS EITHER IN AGREEMENT WITH A LOT OF THESE CRAZY ORDERS THAT TRUMP HAS PUT OUT THERE WHERE SHE IS NOT IN THE LOOP.

IF SHE IS IN THE LOOP MOTHER AND SHE IS CLEARLY NOT BEING HEARD OR BEING EFFECTIVE.

SO FAR, I THINK IT IS TROUBLE.

>> USE IT IN YOUR OP-ED THAT "THE HALLMARK OF A GOOD CHIEF OF STAFF IS TELLING THE PRESIDENT WHAT HE DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR."

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT IS, I DON'T THINK IT IS A SECRET PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES NOT LIKE TO BE TOLD THINGS HE DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR.

CAN SHE DO THAT?

>> I THINK SHE IS MORE SUCCESSFUL AT IT THAN ANY OF HER PREDECESSORS WERE.

HE, DONALD TRUMP CHURNED THROUGH FOUR WHITE HOUSE CHIEFS, EACH ONE MORE HAPLESS THAN THE ONE BEFORE.

HE ULTIMATELY FOUND THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF HIS DREAMS, MARK MEADOWS, WHO WAS THE ULTIMATE SYCOPHANT.

I COMPARED HIM IN ONE OF MY BOOKS TO A KIND OF GLADHANDING MANTRE D'.

HE DIDN'T JUST WANT TO PLEASE TRUMP, HE WANTED TO PLEASE EVERYBODY.

HE COULD NOT TELL DONALD TRUMP HARD TRUTHS.

SUSIE WILES HAS SHOWN OVER THIS LONG RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP AND HER ABILITY TO WIN THAT CAMPAIGN, THAT SHE REALLY DOES HAVE SOME ABILITY TO TELL DONALD TRUMP HARD TRUTHS.

BUT, THIS IS A RELATIVE THING WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP.

CLEARLY, SHE DECIDED NOT TO FIGHT THE BATTLE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT PROBABLY ANY OTHER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF WOULD HAVE THROWN HER BODY IN FRONT OF A DECISION TO PARDON 1500 JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONIST.

SHE, EVIDENTLY, CHOSE, SHE EITHER DIDN'T FIGHT THAT THE BATTLE OR SHE LOST IT.

WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

BUT, EVENTUALLY, WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.

>> IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT SUSIE WILES HAS ALREADY TAKEN A FIRM STANCE ON ELON MUSK'S ACCESS, THE TECH MOGUL, TESLA, SPACEX, WHO, IT HAS BEEN REPORTED, WANTED TO HAVE AN OFFICE AND WAS DOING AND SHE SAID NO TO THAT.

>> HE IS NOW IN THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE BUILDING.

EXACTLY.

ROUND ONE GOES TO SUSIE WILES.

ELON MUSK, ZERO.

WE WILL SEE IF SHE CAN KEEP THAT UP.

>> HERE IS MY QUESTION, ARE THEY REALLY INTERESTED IN GOVERNING, IN THE WAY THAT WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY THOUGHT OF AS GOVERNING?

ADDING CERTAIN POLICIES APPROVED AND IMPLEMENTED AND INSTITUTIONALIZED.

YES, WITH THE FLURRY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, THEY HAVE CREATED A LOT OF , THEY HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION.

SOME OF THESE THINGS, AS WE HAVE SAID, ARE OF DUBIOUS LEGALITY AND DUBIOUS CONSTITUTIONALITY.

THAT IS GOING TO SUCK UP A LOT OF ATTENTION.

IS THE QUESTION HERE REALLY TO TRY TO GOVERN IN THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN ACCUSTOMED TO THINKING OF GOVERNING OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?

IF IT IS SOMETHING ELSE, WHAT IS IT?

>> IT COULD VERY WELL BE TWO DIFFERENT ANSWERS ONE FOR TRUMP AND ONE FOR SUSIE WILES.

SUSIE WILES, I THINK, WITHOUT A DOUBT, WANTS TO GOVERN EFFECTIVELY.

SHE WANTS TO MAKE THE TRAINS RUN IN AN ORDERLY WAY IN THE WEST WING.

SHE MAY BE DILUTED IN HER BELIEF THAT SHE CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN WITH DONALD TRUMP BUT I THINK THAT IS HER MISSION.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT SHE IS -BENT ON ACCOMPLISHING.

THE LAST TIME I SPOKE TO HER, SHE WAS DRIVING FROM MAR-A- LAGO.

SHE SAID SHE JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH HAKEEM JEFFRIES AND SHE WAS TELLING HIM, "YOU GET READY, THIS IS A NEW TRUMP.

THIS IS NOT THE GUY FROM THE FIRST FOUR YEARS.

HE REALLY WANTS TO GET STUFF DONE.

HE KNOWS HOW TO DO IT AND HE'S GOING TO BUCKLE DOWN AND GOVERN."

I AM PARAPHRASING, SHE DIDN'T SAY IT IN THOSE WORDS.

SHE BELIEVES THERE IS A NEW TRUMP.

WELL, WE WILL SEE ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED MINORITY LEADER HAKEEM JEFFRIES.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IN THE OP-ED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS SHE DOESN'T REALLY HAVE EXPERIENCE ON CAPITOL HILL.

SHE CERTAINLY DOESN'T HAVE THE KIND OF EXPERIENCE JIM BAKER HAD OR LEON PANETTA HAD.

HOW CRITICAL IS THAT GOING TO BE?

>> IT IS A REAL STRIKE AGAINST HER.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHE IS GOING TO HAVE TO COMPENSATE FOR.

SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE AN AWFULLY QUICK STUDY.

THE IDEA WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS SOMEONE NOT ONLY WITH WHITE HOUSE EXPERIENCE BUT SOMEONE WHO KNOWS CAPITOL HILL LIKE THE BACK OF HIS OR HER HAND.

JIM BAKER IS CERTAINLY ONE, LEON PANETTA IS ANOTHER.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE, EXCEPT WAY BACK WHEN WHEN SHE WAS IN THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION AS A YOUNG WOMAN.

THAT IS GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE FOR HER.

>> THE REPUBLICANS ON THE HILL HAS SHOWN A GREAT WILLINGNESS TO DEFER TO THE PRESIDENT.

THE REPUBLICAN LEADERS OF BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE HAVE PLEDGED THEIR LOYALTY TO THE SENATE SO THEY ARE THERE TO HELP THE PRESIDENT GET HIS AGENDA THROUGH AND THE CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE A LOT OF VOTES.

THE QUESTION IS DOES SHE HAVE THE ABILITY TO, OBVIOUSLY IT IS THEIR JOB TO WHIP THEIR OWN CAUCUSES.

THE LEADERS OF THOSE TWO BODIES, IT IS THEIR JOB TO DELIVER THE VOTES.

IS THAT A SITUATION WHERE THE CHIEF OF STAFF PLAYS A ROLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR, THAT IS THE PERSON WHO REALLY HAS TO BE ABLE TO CORRAL, WRANGLE VOTES ON CAPITOL HILL.

YOU CAN'T JUST LEAVE THAT UP TO THE CAUCUS.

NO, THE REPUBLICANS, THE CONGRESS MAY SEEM COLD, INTIMIDATED BY TRUMP RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THEY ARE ON THE BACK FOOT.

THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AND ANOTHER ADVANTAGE, ONE ADVANTAGE SUSIE WILES HAS THAT WILL OBVIOUSLY WORK IN HER FAVOR ON CAPITOL HILL IS THAT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY DOUBTS THAT SHE SPEAKS FOR TRUMP.

THAT IS CRITICAL.

IT WAS NEVER THE CASE WITH HER PREDECESSORS, FROM PREVIOUS TO MEADOWS.

NOBODY WAS EVER SURE THAT THOSE GUYS, WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR HOMES, THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SPEAKING.

SUSIE WILES HAS THAT.

I THINK THAT WILL BE AN ADVANTAGE FOR HER.

>> CHRIS WHIPPLE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, AS RFK JR. FACES THE SCRUTINY OF THE SENATE, HIS COUSIN, CAROLINE KENNEDY, DAUGHTER OF THE LATE PRESIDENT JOHN KENNEDY, HAS UNEXPECTEDLY STEPPED INTO THE SPOTLIGHT TO ISSUE AN URGENT WARNING ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PICKED TO HEAD THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> IS BASEMENT, HIS GARAGE IN HIS DORM ROOM WERE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF THE ACTION, WHERE DRUGS WERE AVAILABLE AND HE ENJOYED SHOWING OFF HOW HE PUT BABY CHICKENS AND NICE IN A BLENDER TO FEED TO HIS HAWKS.

BOBBY PRAYS ON THE DESPERATION OF PERIODS OF SICK CHILDREN, VACCINATING HIS OWN KIDS WHILE BUILDING A FOLLOWING HYPOCRITICALLY DISCOURAGING OTHER PARENTS FROM VACCINATING THEIRS.

WE ARE A CLOSE FAMILY AND NONE OF THAT IS EASY TO SAY.

IT ALSO ISN'T EASY TO REMAIN SILENT LAST YEAR, WHEN BOBBY EXPROPRIATED MY FATHER'S IMAGE AND DISTORTED PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S LEGACY TO ADVANCE HIS OWN FAILED PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, AND THEN, GROVEL TO DONALD TRUMP FOR A JOB.

BOBBY CONTINUES TO GRANDSTAND OFF MY FATHER'S ASSASSINATION, AND THAT OF HIS OWN FATHER.

>> STEERING AND SHE ENDED THE STATEMENT BY EXPRESSING THAT HER LATE FATHER, AND HER UNCLES BOBBY AND TEDDY, WOULD BE, " DISGUSTED."

OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS, GLOBAL VACCINE EFFORTS HAVE SAVED OVER 150 MILLION LIVES, ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

THIS IS A CONVERSATION WE WILL CONTINUE TOMORROW WHEN WE SPEAK TO BILL IRWIN, THE STARS OF "EUREKA DAY" ON BROADWAY, A SATIRICAL LOOK INTO THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES OVER VACCINES, TIMELY INDEED.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.