January 5, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

NEARLY 50 DAYS IN HAMAS CAPTIVITY WITH HER CHILDREN.

ONE MOTHER TELL ME HER STORY.

THEN FEARS MOUNT OF A WIDER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

WHAT ARE THE RISKS?

REGIONAL AND SECURITY EXPERTS KIM GHATTAS AND COLIN CLARKE JOIN ME.

ALSO AHEAD, AS REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES MAKE THEIR CASE, SARAH LONGWELL BREAKS DOWN THE CAMPAIGN TRENDS.

AND ALMOST THREE YEARS ON FROM JANUARY 6th, HOW SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS SHIFTED IN AMERICA.

WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO THE DIRECTOR OF THE CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY AND THREATS.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MILKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THIS WEEKEND WILL MARK THREE MONTHS SINCE THE ATTACK ON ISRAEL BY HAMAS.

THE HORRORS OF THAT DAY WHEN AT LEAST 1,200 ISRAELIS WERE KILLED ARE STILL REVERBERATING AROUND THE WORLD.

THE RESPONSE IS INTENSIFYING IN GAZA WHERE MORE THAN 22,000 PEOPLE HAVE KILLED ACCORDING TO THE HAMAS-CONTROLLED HEALTH MINISTRY THERE.

MEANWHILE, A PAINFUL ORDEAL CONTINUES FOR THE FAMILIES OF MORE THAN 130 PEOPLE STILL THOUGHT TO BE HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA.

THE PROSPECTS OF ANOTHER DEAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS TO PAUSE FIGHTING ARE UNCERTAIN, DESPITE A TEMPORARY TRUCE IN NOVEMBER WHICH SAW THE RELEASE OF 105 HOSTAGES.

AMONG THOSE RELEASED WAS 34-YEAR-OLD DORON KATZ ASHER AND HER YOUNG DAUGHTERS.

SHE SAID SHE ENDURED PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE IN CAPTIVITY AS SHE TOLD ME WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH HER EARLIER THIS WEEK IN TEL AVIV.

>> NEARLY SIX WEEK AGO, SHE AND HER YOUNG DAUGHTERS RETURNED HOME AFTER NEARLY 50 DAYS HELD CAPTIVE IN GAZA.

>> Translator: THE FIRST THING THEY DID WAS TO GO OUTSIDE AND FEEL THE WIND ON THEIR SKIN AND HOW GOOD IT FEELS.

WE WERE NEVER OUTSIDE.

WE DIDN'T SEE DAYLIGHT THAT ENTIRE TIME.

>> PERHAPS NOT YET FULLY ABLE TO PROCESS WHAT HAPPENED, SHE EXUDES REMARKABLE RESILIENCE.

>> Translator: WHY WE WERE HOSTAGES, ALL MY ENERGY WAS DEDICATED TO THE GIRLS.

IF I WERE TO GET LOST IN GRIEF, THERE WOULD BE NO ONE TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.

I WAS ACTING ON AUTO PILOT.

I WAS BUILDING WALLS AROUND ME.

I'M STILL ON AUTO PILOT.

>> THE THREE WERE VISITING D DORON'S MOTHER.

THAT'S 5-YEAR-OLD ROZ IN THE PITCHING DRESS ON THE WHITE WHILE THE 3-YEAR-OLD HOLDS ON TO HER STUFFED NAM.

THIS WAS THE LAST PICTURE BEFORE THE ATTACK THAT KILLED 48 RESIDENTS YOU KNOW HER UNCLE.

>> WE WOKE UP TO THE SOUND OF SIRENS.

WE WERE INSIDE THE SHELTER.

THEN THEY WERE COMING.

THE TERRORISTS INVADED THE KIBBUTZ.

>> THEY HID IN THE SAFE ROOM WITH DORON'S MOTHER AND HER PARTNER, 79-YEAR-OLD GADI MOSES.

A MAN THE GIRLS CALLED SABA, GRANDFATHER IN HEBREW.

>> HE TRIED TO SAVE HIMSELF.

AND THEN AFTER A FEW MINUTES, THERE WAS SILENCE AND WE UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY TOOK HIM WITH THEM.

>> EVENTUALLY ANOTHER GRAM OF TERRORISTS WOULD ARRIVE.

THIS TIME TAKING ALL FOUR WOMEN WITH THEM TO GAZA.

ONLY THREE WOULD SURVIVE.

>> Translator: THEY HAVE LED US THROUGH THE FENCE NEAR THE KIBBUTZ.

AND THEN THEY PUT US ON A TRACTOR WITH OTHER ISRAELI HOSTAGES.

AND ON THE WAY THERE, THERE WAS SHOOTING GOING ON.

THAT'S HOW MY MOTHER WAS MURDERED.

I WAS HURT IN THE BACK AND I BELIEVE MY YOUNGEST WAS HURT IN THE LEG.

>> ONCE YOU GOT INTO GAZA, WHAT HAPPENED?

>> Translator: WE GOT INTO OUR HIDING PLACE, AN APARTMENT THAT BELONGED TO A FAMILY.

WE WERE INSIDE THE ROOM WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO GET OUT, OF COURSE.

CLOSED DOOR, CLOSED WINDOW.

AFTER 16 DAYS, THEY RELOCATE US TO ANOTHER PLACE, A SO-CALLED HOSPITAL.

>> DID ANYONE TELL YOU WHAT WAS GOING ON?

WHY YOU WERE THERE?

WERE THEY MEMBERS OF HAMAS?

>> Translator: THEY DIDN'T GIVE US A LOT OF INFORMATION.

THEY MAINLY TRIED TO SAY THAT HAMAS WANTS TO RELEASE US BUT IN ISRAEL NO ONE CARES ABOUT US WHICH WASN'T TRUE.

WE DIDN'T BELIEVE MOST OF THE STUFF THEY WERE SAYING.

>> AND OF COURSE, WASN'T TRUE.

JUST OVER THE BORDER IN ISRAEL, DORON'S HUSBAND NEVER GAVE UP HOPE.

>> WE ARE BEGGING FOR YOUR HELP.

MY BABIES DOESN'T HAVE MUCH TIME.

I GOT TO SEE HOW HELL LOOKS LIKE.

>> Translator: THE STUFF THAT THEY'VE SEEN ON OCTOBER 7, I COULDN'T HIDE FROM THEM.

IT'S LIKE WE WERE IN A WAR MOVIE.

BUT AFTER THAT, IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT THEY WOULDN'T FEEL DANGER AND I TOLD THEM, THERE ARE NO TERRORISTS ANYMORE.

AND WE ARE WITH GOOD PEOPLE GUARDING US UNTIL WE CAN RETURN HOME.

>> WERE THEY GOOD TO YOU?

THE PEOPLE?

>> Translator: THEY DIDN'T PHYSICALLY HARM ME.

BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE.

>> LIKE WHAT?

>> Translator: THAT WE WON'T RETURN TO LIVE IN THE KIBBUTZ BECAUSE IT'S NOT OUR HOUSE.

IT'S NOT THE PLACE WHERE WE BELONG.

>> DID YOU KNOW IF THEY WERE HAMAS OR JUST CITIZENS IN GAZA?

>> Translator: THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME A LOT OF INFO ABOUT THEM.

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEIR NAMES.

I GUESS THE FATHER IS WITH HAMAS BUT THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME MUCH INFO.

I KNOW HE WORKED IN ISRAEL IN THE PAST AND THAT'S HOW HE KNOWS HEBREW AND THAT'S HOW WE COMMUNICATED.

>> WERE THERE OTHER CHILDREN THERE?

>> Translator: YES.

HE HAD CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN AND HIS CHILDREN WERE WATCHING US 24/7.

I ASKED EVERY DAY ABOUT MY FAMILY.

IF THEY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT MY BROTHER, MY BROTHER'S BABY GIRL.

THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME ANY ANSWERS.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THEY MOVED YOU AFTER 16 DAYS?

>> Translator: I THINK THEY TRIED TO GATHER HOSTAGES TOGETHER.

THE DAY THAT WE ARRIVED TO THE SO-CALLED HOSPITAL, OTHERS ARRIVED THERE AS WELL AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I MET OTHER HOSTAGES.

>> WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING SO-CALLED HOSPITAL?

>> Translator: A HOSPITAL NEEDS TO TREAT SICK PEOPLE.

IT DOESN'T HOLD HOSTAGES.

THERE WERE A FEW TIMES WHEN THE GIRLS HAD HIGH FEVER AND THEY WERE SICK AND I HAD TO TAKE CARE OF THEM AND I NEEDED TO GET THEM MEDI MEDICATION.

THEY BROUGHT SOMEONE WHO THEY SAID WAS A DOCTOR.

THE NEXT DAY, I GOT MEDICATION FROM HIM FOR THE GIRLS.

BUT WASN'T ENOUGH.

I USED TO PUT HER IN THE SINK WITH COLD WATER TO BRING DOWN HER TEMPERATURE BUT SHE WAS SCREAMING.

THEY WOULD TELL US TO KEEP QUIET.

THE GIRL HAD HIGH FEVER.

I HAD TO TAKE CARE OF HER SOMEHOW.

>> COULD YOU HERE THE IDF BOMBING?

DID YOU KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON?

WERE YOU WORRIED THAT BY MISTAKE, THAT YOU AND YOUR GIRLS WOULD HAVE BEEN IN DANGER AS ISRAEL WAS TRYING TO RETRIEVE YOU?

>> Translator: I HEARD THE FIGHTING.

AND YES, WE WERE SCARED.

THE NOISES WERE VERY STRONG.

VERY LOUD.

AT LEAST THAT'S HOW WE KNEW SOMETHING WAS GOING ON IN ORDER TO GET US BACK HOME.

TO PUT THE PRESSURE ON HAMAS TO RELEASE US.

>> WHAT DID YOU FEAR THE MOST WHEN YOU WERE THERE?

>> Translator: SURPRISINGLY, IT WAS THE DAY THAT WE WERE RELEASED.

THEY WERE SMUGGLING US OUT OF THE HOSPITAL AND THEY GOT US IN A HAMAS VEHICLE TO GET TO A MEETING POINT WITH THE RED CROSS.

WE WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THE RED CROSS.

WE WERE VERY SCARED BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

NO ONE GAVE US ANY INFO.

ONCE THE RED CROSS VEHICLES HAD ARRIVED, THOUSANDS OF GAZANS, THOUSANDS, CHILDREN, ELDERLY, EVERYONE CAME IN AND STARTED TO CLIMB ON THE CARS AND BANG ON THE CARS.

I WAS HOLDING MY GIRL AND I WAS SCARED OF A LYNCH MOB.

THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT SHE SAID TO ME AFTER A MONTH AND A HALF OF ME PROTECTING HER, MOMMY, I'M SCARED.

THEY ABSOLUTELY PUT ON A SHOW TO DRESS ME UP IN NICE CLOTHES AND SHOES WHEN MY GIRLS AND I WERE BARE FOOT FOR 50 DAYS AND WE WERE COLD BECAUSE WE WERE WEARING SHORT SLEEVES IN NOVEMBERFUL IT'S ONE BIG SHOW.

>> TODAY THE GIRLS ARE BACK IN KIGT AND WITH FAMILY THERAPY, THEY'RE ADJUST GO WELL.

TRAPS THERE WAS ONE DAY THEY SAW A TRACTOR AND THEY ASKED IF THE EVIL MEN ARE HERE.

I HAD TO SAY NO, THE TRACTOR DOESN'T BELONG TO THE EVIL MEN.

THE EVIL MEN ARE IN JAIL.

>> WHILE THEY MOURN THEIR GRANDMOTHER, SHE SAID THE HEALING CAN'T REALLY BEGIN UNTIL ALL THE REMAINING 129 HOSTAGES ARE RELEASED INCLUDING GADI.

>> Translator: YES, ABSOLUTELY.

THE WORD HAS TO UNDERSTAND THE REALITY THAT THE HOSTAGES ARE IN.

THEY'RE NOT BEING TREATED AS HUMAN BEINGS.

THEY DON'T GIVE THEM MEDICATION.

THERE IS BARELY ANY FOOD.

TAKING A SHOWER IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING.

WE CAME BACK SICK BECAUSE.

POOR HYGIENE.

I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY'RE TREATING MEN THERE.

>> DOR ONLY SPEAKING TO ME THERE FROM TEL AVIV.

A NOTE THAT HER YOUNGER DAUGHTER AVIV HAS JUST TURNED 3 YEARS OLD TODAY.

WE WISH THEM A SPEEDY REUNION WITH THEIR GRANDFATHER.

>>> AS THESE STORIES OF PERSONAL STORIES CONTINUE TO EMERGE, FEARS OF A WIDER WAR ARE GROWING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT'S SOMETHING THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD CHRISTIANE HE'S AFRAID OF.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WE DON'T WANT AN ESCALATION IN THE WAR.

WE DON'T WANT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE SOUTH TO BE SPREAD OVER LEBANON.

WE DON'T LIKE A REGIONAL WAR BECAUSE IT'S DANGEROUS TO EVERYBODY.

DANGEROUS TO LEBANON.

DANGEROUS TO ISRAEL AND TO THE COUNTRIES SURROUNDING ISRAEL.

>> AND AS TENSIONS ESCALATED, HE'S OUTLINED PLANS FOR POST-WAR GAZA ENVISIONING THE ENCLAVE NO LONGER CONTROLLED BY HAMAS AND WITH NO ISRAELI CIVILIAN PRESENCE.

BUT WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN FOR THE REGION?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS, THE CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR THE ATLANTIC, KIM GHATTAS.

AND FOR PITTSBURGH, FROM THE SOUFAN GROUP, COLIN CLARKE.

KIM, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

IT WAS NOTABLE FOR THE FIRST TIME WE HEARD OF AT LEAST SOME PLAN FROM THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL OF WHAT A POST-WAR GAZA WOULD LOOK LIKE.

AND THAT IS FROM THE DEFENSE MINISTRY.

HE SAID THE POST-WAR GOVERNMENT SHOULD INCLUDE THE INVOLVEMENT OF FOUR PARTIES.

ISRAEL, THE PALESTINIANS, EGYPT, AND A MULTINATIONAL FORCE, BUT NO ISRAELI CIVILIAN PRESENCE SHOULD BE THERE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT PLAN?

IT IS INTERESTING THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD A SIMILAR ONE OR ANY RESPONSE FROM THE PRIME MINISTER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PLAN ITSELF AND ITS FEASIBILITY?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S GOOD TO BE ON THE SHOW.

I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT PLANS BEING DISCUSSED.

WE'VE HEARD FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

WE'VE HEARD FROM YOAV GALLANT.

IT IS THE MOST DETAILED PLAN THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ISRAELI CIVILIAN CONTROL OF GAZA.

HOWEVER, ON THE POINT OF A MULTINATIONAL FORCE LED BY THE U.S., I THINK THEY WOULD HAVE TO CHECK WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

I DON'T THINK THE WHITE HOUSE IS INTERESTED IN HAVING ANY PHYSICAL ROLE ON THE GROUND IN GAZA.

AND CERTAINLY I THINK ARAB COUNTRIES ARE NOT INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING IN A MULTINATIONAL FORCE OR PARTICIPATING AND CONTRIBUTING TO THE RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA UNLESS IT COMES WITH A WIDER PLAN FOR A POLITICAL SOLUTION AND A POLITICAL HORIZON.

NOT ONLY FOR GAZA BUT FOR THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE.

THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE THE QUESTION OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION COME IN.

AND OF COURSE, STILL SOMEWHERE IN THE BACKGROUND, THE IDEA OF SAUDI ISRAELI NORMALIZATION WHICH CANNOT GO FORWARD IN MY VIEW, AND THE SAUDIS WILL HAVE MADE THAT CLEAR ALREADY.

CANNOT CONTINUE.

CANNOT RESUME UNLESS IT IS PART OF BIGGER REGIONAL PICTURE.

AND OF COURSE, IN THE MEANTIME, AS I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM BEIRUT, THERE IS, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE RISK OF FURTHER ESCALATION BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO DISCUSS WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN GAZA THE DAY AFTER.

>> COLIN, THERE ARE SO MANY THING THAT COME TO MIND ABOUT WHAT SHOULD COME FIRST.

EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT GALLANT'S PLAN, HE SAID THAT INCLUDES AMONG THOSE GOVERNING THE PALESTINIANS, HE DIDN'T SAY WHO AMONG THE PALESTINIANS BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS NOT COME OUT AND ENDORSED THE P.A.

GOVERNING IN GAZA.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW FOR HAMAS TO REMAIN IN GOVERNMENT THERE.

SO WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT SOME SORT OF PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT COULD BE FORMED THAT COULD WIN THE APPROVAL OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, NOT TO MENTION SUPPORT FROM REGIONAL ACTORS AND THE U.S.?

>> I THINK THE ODDS OF THAT ARE VERY SMALL AT THE MOMENT.

I THINK THE ISRAELIS IN PARTICULAR ARE AT GREAT RISK OF WHAT WE CALL MISSION CREEP.

MOVING IN THE GOALPOST.

CONTINUOUSLY BACK.

AND WILL THAT HAS BEEN A PROBLEM FROM DAY ONE.

IT HAS BEEN AN EXTREMELY MYOPIC STRATEGY.

THE MILITARY APPROACH HAS BEEN PUT WAY ABOVE ANY KIND OF IDEA ABOUT A POLITICAL OR NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT.

THOSE TWO HAVE BEEN DIVORCED AND WE'RE NOW ONLY SEEING BITS AND PIECES.

WE CAN GO BACK TO THE BASICS OF STUDYING WARFARE AND THAT IS, WAR IS POLITICS BY OTHER MEANS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, UNLESS THERE IS A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NETANYAHU HAS BRAGGED ABOUT DENYING THE PALESTINIANS FOR A LONG TIME.

WE'RE GOING TO END UP BEING BACK IN THE SAME SITUATION SIX, 12, 18 MONTHS FROM NOW.

AND WE'LL BE SLIDING INTO, YOU KNOW, A SITUATION THAT MAYBE STARTS TO LOOK A LITTLE LIKE ISRAEL AND SOUTH LEBANON IN 1982.

THEY WERE THERE FOR 18 YEARS.

CERTAINLY, THEY DIDN'T PLAN TO BE.

>> KIM, THERE YOU ARE IN LEBANON.

I JUST RETURNED FROM ISRAEL AND THERE'S NO SHORTAGE OF CONVERSATIONS AND DISAGREEMENTS THAT CAN BE HEARD IN EVERY SINGLE ESTABLISHMENT ABOUT NOT ONLY THE DISAPPROVAL OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IN GENERAL, BUT HOW THE WAR IS BEING CONDUCTED AND PERHAPS EVEN TOO AMBITIOUS OF A GOAL TO ELIMINATE FULLY HAMAS.

WE DID SEE ACTION THIS WEAK.

AND ISRAEL HASN'T CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY.

MOST ASSUME THAT'LL ISRAEL IS BEHIND THE STRIKE THAT TOOK OUT THE HAMAS LEADER.

A TARGETED STRIKE NOTABLY STATING THAT THIS WAS A HAMAS LEADER AND NOT ANYONE ELSE INVOLVED IN HEZBOLLAH LEADERSHIP.

NOT WANTING TO EXPAND THIS WAR AND THIS ISSUE FURTHER.

BUT IS IT YOUR TAKE AS WE'VE HEARD FROM CHRISTIANE'S INTERVIEW WITH THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER, AND AS WE'VE HEARD TWICE THIS WEEK, FROM THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH, THAT THERE WILL BE FURTHER ACTION TAKEN ON THE NORTHERN FRONT AT THIS POINT?

>> WHAT I FOUND VERY INTERESTING IN THE SPEECHES, FIRST THE ONE EARLIER THIS WEAK AND THEN THE ONE TODAY, IS HIS CLEAR SIGNALING THAT THEY'RE OPEN TO COMPROMISE AND INDIRECTLY, THEY WILL BE NEGOTIATE DIRECTLY WITH THE ISRAELIS.

BUT FROM THE ONSET, WITHIN A WEEK AFTER THE HORRENDOUS ATTACK OF OCTOBER 7th, IT WAS CLEAR THAT HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN WERE NOT INTERESTED IN AN ESCALATION, A FULL-ON WAR.

THEY'VE CALIBRATED THEIR RESPONSE VERY CAREFULLY.

IN SOME WAYS, LEBANON IS ALREADY AT WAR.

THERE ARE DAILY CLASHES ON THE BORDER.

60,000 LEBANESE WHO HAD TO LEAVE AND THE CLASHES ARE INTENSE.

THIS IS A CALIBRATED RESPONSE WHICH ALLOW THEM TO SAY THAT THEY ARE SUPPORTING THE PALESTINIANS BUT NOT GOING ALL OUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING THIS WEEK, HE SAID IF ISRAEL WAGES WAR AGAINST LEBANON, OUR RESPONSE WOULD BE WITHOUT LIMITS.

IN OTHER WORDS, AN ISRAELI STRIKE AGAINST A HAMAS LEADER IN THE MIDDLE OF BEIRUT WHICH IS ACTUALLY A JUDICIAL KILLING ON SOVEREIGN TERRITORY.

HE DOES NOT CONSIDER THAT WAR AGAINST LEBANON.

SO THEY'RE LOOKING EVERY TIME TO MOVE THEIR OPEN RED LINES.

AND AGAIN, TODAY, SIGNALING VERY CLEARLY THAT THE POINTS OF CONTENTION ALONG THE BORDER, THAT LEBANON CONSIDERS ARE OCCUPIED BY ISRAEL, CAN BE NEGOTIATED AND THOSE NEGOTIATIONS CAN ONLY TAKE PLACE AFTER THE WAR IN GAZA COMES TO AN END.

SO AGAIN, CLEAR SIGNALING THAT THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN WAR BUT MISSTEPS AND MISCALCULATIONS CAN HAPPEN.

SO THIS COUNTRY IS LIVING WITH A WILL THE OF TENSION AND FEAR ABOUT THE DAY WHEN SOMETHING LAKE THAT MATE GET OUT OF HAND.

>> AND A LOT OF HORRIFIC MEMORIES DATING BACK TO 2006 AND THAT WAR THERE.

COLIN, YOU HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE MAKING A FOURTH VISIT TO THE REGION.

REALLY, A WHIRLWIND TRIP TOLE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, LANDING IN TURKEY TODAY WITH THE FOCUS ON THIS WAR.

NOT EXPANDING.

YET EACH AND EVERY TIME WE HAVE SEEN THE U.S. MAKE ANY SORT OF ATTEMPT TO KEEP THAT FROM HAPPENING, WE SEE FURTHER ACTION.

WHETHER IT BE IN IRAN, IN IRAQ, IN THE RED SEA BY THE HOUTHIS AND NOW FOCUSING ON THE LEBANESE BORDER.

WHAT IF ANYTHING CAN THE U.S. DO TO KEEP THIS SITUATION AS QUIET AND NOT AVOIDING THE -- AVOIDING THE INEVITABLE?

>> I THINK THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S FOURTH TRIP NOW IN A VERY SHORT TIME FRAME IS REALLY A TACIT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT WE ARE ALREADY IN A WAR.

IT IS A LOW-BOIL WAR COMPARED TO WHERE IT COULD GO BUT I THOUGHT KIM HAD A REALLY NICE PIECE IN THE FINANCIAL TAMES A FEW WEEKS AGO WHERE SHE SAID THE REGION HAS SETTLED INTO THE RHYTHM OF WAR OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES.

AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY ASTUTE OBSERVATION.

AWARE NOW SEEING IT FROM GAZA TO LEBANON, SYRIA, YEMEN.

THERE IS NO PART OF THE REGION THAT IS UNSCATHED FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND THIS IS THE DREAM.

CREATING THIS AXIS OF RESISTANCE THAT DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE BORDERS AND BOUNDARIES.

I THINK THE U.S. HAS A MAJOR ROLE TO PLAY NOT ONLY STANDING WITH THE ISRAELIS AND PROVIDING HARD ADVICE AND SOMETIMES ADVICE THAT THE ISRAELIS DON'T WANT TO HERE AND TRYING TO PREVENT MISSTEPS AND MISCALCULATIONS, BUT ALSO PROVIDING THAT DETERRENT RESPONSE THAT WE'VE SEEN SO FAR REALLY AS ONE OF THE FEW COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD THAT IS ABLE TO MARSHAL THE STRENGTH, THE MILITARY HARDWARE TAD SOMETHING ABOUT THE STATUS AS WELL.

>> AND THEN YOU THROW ANOTHER PLAYER INTO THE MIX HERE, KIM.

THAT IS ISIS.

YOU HERE COLIN MENTIONED SULEMANI.

HIS ASSASSINATION WHERE WE SAW 100 PEOPLE KILLED AFTER EXPLOSIONS THAT ISIS NOW TOOK CREDIT FOR.

THIS COMING JUST A DAY AFTER EVERYONE ASSUMED THAT IT HAD BEEN ISRAEL THAT HAD TAKEN OUT TO ONE OF THE HAMAS LEADERS, TARGETING KILLING IN LEBANON.

WHAT IS ISIS DOING?

WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU THINK THEY'RE SENDING?

>> YOU KNOW, CHAOS ACTORS, SPOILER ACTORS, GROUPS LIKE ISIS THRIVE IN THIS KIND OF ATMOSPHERE.

THEY WOULD BE LACK TO PROVOKE MORE CHAOS IN IRAN.

AND I THINK IT IS A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS WHEN WE'RE ALMOST RELIEVED THAT IT IS ISIS AND NOT ISRAEL.

IT IS NOT THEIR USUAL M.O.

TO GO AFTER CIVILIAN TARGETS IN IRAN.

THEY'VE BEEN VERY PRECISE ABOUT GOING AFTER IT.

IT'S A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS WHEN THE INITIAL FATHER WAS MAY GOOD THAT.

THIS COULD BE EVEN GREATER.

AND THEN A SADNESS FOR CIVILIANS, THAT IT IS ONLY ISIS, IF I MAY PUT IT LIKE THIS.

AS COLIN WAS POINTING OUT, IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE THAT WE ARE ALREADY IN A WAR ACROSS THE REGION.

WE SHOULD NOT BE WAITING FOR THE CONFLAGRATION.

WE'LL HAVE MORE OF THIS.

MORE ATTACKS IN THE RED SEA.

MORE CLASHES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON.

MORE ISRAELI STRIKES AGAINST SYRIA, POTENTIALLY.

AND I THINK TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION TO COLIN ABOUT WHAT THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE DOING, WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE SHOULD BE DOING, IS PUSH AS MUCH AS IT CAN POSSIBLY WITH ITS ALLIES, WITH ISRAEL, WITH THE SAUDIS, WITH PALESTINIANS, TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN HAVE AER IS A JUST CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DAY AFTER, AND A SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT A WIDER POLITICAL HORIZON AND SOLUTION FOR THE PALESTINIANS, WHICH ALLOWS ALL OF THIS TENSION TO BE DIFFUSED TO SOME EXTENT.

>> IS THAT WHERE THIS ALL ENDS?

THE QUICKER THE GAZA WAR COMES TO AN END, THE QUICKER A TWO-STATE SOLUTION CAN BE AGREED TO?

ALL THE THING WE'RE SEEING NOW, WHETHER IT IS FROM THE HOUTHIS, NORTHERN ISRAEL, EVEN OTHER PROXIES?

>> I THINK THE QUICKER THE WAR ENDS, THE BETTER IT IS FOR THE CIVILIANS THAT ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED ON A REGULAR BASIS.

LET'S LOOK AT THAT FROM A HUMAN ASPECT.

A NUMBER OF THING THAT COULD GO WRONG HERE.

WE HAVE TO CONSIDER THE SECOND.

I LOOK AT IRAQ MOST SPECIFICALLY WITH THE RECENT U.S. STRIKE AGAINST BAGHDAD AGAINST MILITIA GROUPS.

THE SECOND COULD BE PRESSURE ON THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT TO EXPEL THE UNITED STATES.

IF THAT DOES HAPPEN, A GROUP LIKE ISIS IS BOUND TO COME BACK IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM.

AND I THINK THE RECENT ATTACK IF IRAQ SHOULD BE WHAT WE SHEKT.

TO GIVE REIN TO AN ISLAMIC STATE WAITING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO WREAK HAVOC IN THE REGION.

>> KIM, THE FINAL WORD TO YOU.

WITH A IF ANY ROLE DOES EGYPT HAVE IN LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE HERE?

>> A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE.

THEY'RE ALSO LOOKING TO SEE HOW THE MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE WAR IN GAZA PROCEED.

THERE'S NO POINT DISCUSSING THE DAY AFTER OR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND IT CERTAINLY ISN'T GOING TO BE SIMPLE AND IT WON'T HAPPEN THIS YEAR.

IT HAS TO BE THE HORIZON.

SO THE EGYPTIANS HAVE A GREAT ROLE TO PLAY.

BOTH IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES.

THEY BORDER GAZA.

AND FOR THE SAUDIS, OF COURSE, THE BIG JACKPOT, IF YOU WILL, FOR THE REGION FOR ISRAEL TO HAVE NORMALIZATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA, AND WHAT THAT COULD BRING IN STABILITY IN THE REGION AND RELATIONS WITH OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, THAT'S WHAT THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO REALLY PUSH FORWARD TO INDICATE WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

WHAT ARE THE POSITIVE POTENTIALS, KNOWING VERY WELL THAT IT IS NOT EASY AND IT HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE.

BUT THAT IS CERTAINLY A BETTER ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

FOR EVERYBODY IN THE REGION, THERE IS NOT GOING TO GET BETTER.

>> SADLY, IT WON'T.

AN EXPERT CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ALWAYS A FAN OF YOURS.

THE WAY YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO NAVIGATE THAT PESKY FLY AND CONTINUE TALKING ON POINT ON THIS VERY SERIOUS MATTER IS SOMETHING TO MARVEL.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, BOTH OF YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE U.S. AND IOWA.

REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES ARE IN THE FINAL STRETCH OF CAMPAIGNING THERE.

WITH TRUMP STILL THE CLEAR FRONT RUNNER, NIKKI HALEY MADE HER CASE AGAINST HIM DIRECTLY TO VOTERS ON CNN LAST NIGHT.

>> I PERSONALLY THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS THE RIGHT PRESIDENT AT THE RIGHT TIME.

I AGREE WITH A LOT OF HIS POLICIES.

BUT THE REALITY IS, RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, CHAOS FOLLOWS HIM.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT'S TRUE.

CHAOS FOLLOWS HIM.

AND WE CAN'T HAVE A COUNTRY IN DISARRAY AND A WORLD ON FIRE AND GO THROUGH FOUR MORE YEARS OF CHAOS.

WE WON'T SURVIVE IT.

>> BUT IS TRUMP'S WIN INEVITABLE?

AFTER HE WAS BLAMED FOR THE MID-TERMS.

THE FORMER STRATEGIST WHO REGULARLY SPEAKS WITH VOTERS ABOUT THIS AND JOINS THE SHOW TO DISCUSS.

A LOADED QUESTION THERE, SARAH.

BUT AN IMPORTANT ONE.

IS HIS NOMINATION ALL BUT SECURED AT THIS POINT?

IF SO, GIVEN ALL THE HEAD WINDS THAT HE IS FACING PERSONALLY, WHY HAS HE NOT LOST SUPPORT FROM MOST OF HIS BASE?

>> YEAH, I DO THINK HIS WIN IS INEVITABLE.

HE IS DOMINATING IN EVERY POLL, BOTH NATIONALLY AND IN THE EARLY STATES.

FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO DESPERATELY WANT TO SEE SOMEBODY BEAT DONALD TRUMP AND MAKE THE OPTIMISTIC CASE, YOU CAN SAY, WELL, THE LEAD IS A NARROWER BUT IT IS STILL 20 POINTS IN MOST CASES.

AT LEAST DOUBLE DIGITS.

I'M NOT SURE WE'VE EVER BEEN IN A PRIMARY SITUATION WHERE WE'VE HAD SOMEBODY WHO IS SO DOMINANT.

I TALKED TO VOTERS EVERY WEEK.

I JUST DID A FOCUS GROUP IN IOWA WITH TWO-TIME TRUMP VOTERS.

THEY WEREN'T EVEN CONSIDERING ANYBODY ELSE.

THERE WAS ONE WOMAN WHO WAS A LITTLE NIKKI HALEY CURIOUS.

FOR MOST, THEY TOOK IT THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE THE NOMINEE.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THAT HE HAS MAINTAINED SUCH A DOMINANT LEAD IS SORT OF TWO REASONS.

ONE IS THEY LIKE HIM.

THEY THINK HE DID A GOOD JOB.

THEY TALK ABOUT WHAT A GOOD JOB HE DID ON THE ECONOMY.

THEY LIKE WHAT HE DID ON IMMIGRATION.

THEY LIKE HIS STANCE ON CRIME.

AND THEY FEEL LIKE HE'S A KNOWN QUANTITY.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THAT, LOOK, WHEN I WAS DOING FOCUS GROUPS A YEAR AGO, THERE WAS AN OPENING FOR SOMEONE ELSE BESIDES TRUMP.

THERE WAS A DECENT CHUNK OF THE PARTY THAT WAS SORT OF MOVE ON FROM TRUMP.

AND THEY WERE VERY RON DeSANTIS CURIOUS.

AS THEY'VE GOTTEN TO KNOW RON DeSANTIS, THEY'VE DECIDED THEY DON'T LIKE HIM.

THIS IOWA FOCUS GROUP, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW DeSANTIS IS SEALING LIKE HE'S GIVEN UP.

THAT HE'S DEPRESSED.

HE'S A REGULAR COMPETITION.

AS A RESULT, YOU CAN'T BEAT SOMETHING WITH NOTHING.

TRUMP IS SOMETHING.

HE HAS A DEEP RELATIONSHIP WITH THESE VOTERS.

THEY'VE VOTED FOR HIM MULTIPLE TIME.

THESE OTHER CANDIDATES NEEDED TO COME IN AND GIVE VOTERS SOMETHING THAT WOULD TURN THEIR HEADS.

THEY'VE LOOKED AT THE OTHER OPTIONS AND SAID WE'LL STICK WITH TRUMP.

>> YET, HE WAS ALWAYS KNOWN AS THE CHAOS CANDIDATE.

THE CHAOS PRESIDENT.

BY COMING OUT AND TELLING VOTERS, I'M YOUR RETRIBUTION.

THEY'RE COMING AFTER ME TO GET TO YOU.

AND I'M TALKING ABOUT THE 91 INDICTMENTS.

91 CHARGES, FOUR INDICTMENTS.

AND WE'VE GOT CONCERNS ABOUT WHETHER HE CAN EVEN BE ON THE BALLOT IN MULTIPLE STATES.

THAT'S GOING UP TO THE SUPREME COURT.

HOW IS THIS ALL SITTING WITH VOTERS?

>> THEY ARE FINE WITH IT.

I WANT TO POINT OUT.

WHEN NIKKI HALEY SAYS CHAOS FOLLOWS HIM.

SHE'S USING THE PASSIVE VOICE.

SHE'S NOT SAYING TRUMP CAUSES CHAOS.

SHE'S NOT SAYING TRUMP IS A CHAOS CANDIDATE.

SHE'S SAYING CHAOS JUST FOLLOWS HIM.

AND THIS HAS BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM THE ENTIRE RACE.

THE PEOPLE CHALLENGING TRUMP FOR THE PRESIDENCY WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT HE DOES THAT MAKE HIM A GENERAL CANDIDATE.

FOR THE PRIMARY AUDIENCE, THEY SEE THE INDICTMENTS, THEY SEE MANY OF THE THINGS SHE MEANS WHEN SHE SEES CHAOS.

WHEN I TALK TO VOTERS, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THERE ARE 91 INDICTMENTS, THEY SAY YEAH, THAT'S BECAUSE THE ESTABLISHMENT IS SCARED OF HIM.

THAT'S BECAUSE DEMOCRATS ARE OUT TO GET HIM.

THESE VOTERS HAVE GENERATED A REAL BOND WITH TRUMP.

WHEN HE SAYS I'M YOUR VOICE.

I'M YOUR RETRIBUTION.

THEY DO SEE ATTACKS ON TRUMP AS ATTACKS ON THEM.

AND THAT'S WHY WHEN HE IS INDICTED FOR THINGS, HE GETS STRONGER BECAUSE THEY RUSH TO HIS DEFENSE.

IT CREATES THIS RALLY AROUND TRUMP EFFECT.

I'VE SEEN IT FOR YEARS.

AN IMPEACHMENT, AN INDICTMENT, OR TAKEN OFF THE BALLOT IN SOME STATES.

THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, HE SPEAKS FOR THEM AND AN ATTACK ON HIM IS AN ATTACK ON THEM.

THAT'S WHY YOU SEE THIS WEIRD PHENOMENON THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER POLITICIAN WHERE WHEN HE'S IN TROUBLE, THEY MOVE TOWARD HIM.

NOT AWAY FROM HIM.

>> THEY DON'T SEE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM.

THEY SORT OF USE ALL THESE CASES AND CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

THEY VIEW IT ALMOST SYMPATHETICALLY OF THEM.

BECAUSE THERE'S ALL THIS CHAOS, THAT IN ITSELF STANDS IN THE WAY OF HIS CANDIDACY.

IT IS CLEAR HIS VOTERS AREN'T BUYING IT.

WITH FOCUS ON IOWA, THAT'S JUST DAYS AWAY.

AFTER IOWA IS NEW HAMPSHIRE AND THAT'S CLEARLY WHERE NIKKI HALEY IS PUTTING HER FOCUS ON.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT COULD HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND THEN.

>> LET ME GIVE YOU THE OPTIMISTIC PITCH FOR NIKKI HALEY.

IF SHE COME IN SECOND AND BEATS RON DeSANTIS THERE IN IOWA, THAT BASICALLY ENDS RON DeSANTIS' CAREER.

HE'S STAKING EVERYTHING ON COMING IN SECOND.

IF SHE EXCEEDS EXPECTATIONS AND COME IN SECOND, AND THEN SHE GOES INTO NEW HAMPSHIRE WITH A LOT OF WIND AT HER BACK.

AND WHERE THERE ARE UNDECLARED VOTERS WHO CAN VOTE IN THAT PRIMARILY, THEN SHE COULD POSSIBLY COME IN A MUCH CLOSER SECOND, OR IN THE CRAZIEST SCENARIO, SHE WINS NEW HAMPSHIRE.

THE IDEA WOULD BE THAT THAT WOULD CREATE THE IDEA THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT INEVITABLE.

IF YOU CAN DO THAT BEFORE SHE GOES INTO HER HOME STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA, YOU COULD CHANGE THE TRAJECTORY OF THIS RACE.

FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, IT WOULD HAVE TO DEFY EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT REPUBLICAN VOTERS.

THEY DON'T WANT A PRETRUMP CANDIDATE.

THEY VIEW NIKKI HALEY -- THE WAY VOTERS TALK ABOUT NIKKI HALEY.

THEY SAY I DON'T HATE HER.

I LIKE HER OKAY.

BUT THEY SEE HER AS ESTABLISHMENT.

SOMEBODY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE OLD REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH THEY BELIEVE THEY'VE MOVED PAST.

AND WHICH THEY SAY VERY SPECIFICALLY, I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK THERE.

I WANT AMERICA FIRST POLICIES.

I WANT TRUMP OR SOMEBODY LIKE HIM.

WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT SOMEONE BEING A REGULAR ESTABLISHMENT, LIKE WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT NIKKI HALEY, FOR THEM THAT MEANS SOMEONE THEY CAN'T TRUST.

I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING A SEED CHANGE IN HER FAVOR.

SHE WOULD HAVE TO REALLY WIN NEW HAMPSHIRE OR COME IN RIGHT ON TRUMP'S HEELS.

>> IT'S CLEAR THAT TRUMP SHARES YOUR VIEW AND IS MORE FOCUSED ON TAKING ON JOE BIDEN.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT JOE BIDEN AND WHAT HE SEES AS HIS PERCEIVED WEAKNESSES IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

>> DURING THIS HOLIDAY SEASON, FAMILIES ALL ACROSS AMERICA ARE STRUGGLING UNDER THE BRUTAL WEIGHT OF CROOKED JOE'S FAILURES, DISASTERS, AND HEARTLESS BETRAILS.

YOU KNOW THAT.

WHILE THE STOCK MARKET IS MAKING RICH PEOPLE RICHER, BIDEN'S INFLATION CATASTROPHE IS DEMOLISHING YOUR SAVINGS AND RAVAGING YOUR DREAM.

HIS SKY HIGH ENERGY PRICES.

NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.

ARE BRUTALIZING YOUR WALLETS.

OUR BORDERS ARE ERASED.

WE HAVE NO BORDER ANY LONGER.

DRUG, CRIMINAL, GANG MEMBERS AND TERRORISTS ARE POURING INTO OUR COUNTRY.

THEY'RE RUNNING WILD IN OUR DEMOCRAT-RUN CITIES.

WHILE CHRISTIANS AND CONSERVATIVES ARE PERSECUTED.

AND THERE'S A TO CROOKED JOE'S BREATH TAKING WEAKNESS, HE IS BAD.

>> IS THAT A WINNING MESSAGE?

THERE WAS A WILLOT IN THERE.

DOES THAT APPEAL TO VOTERS IN AMERICA?

DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS WHO MAY BE A BIT NEUTRAL.

AS YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS, THE ECONOMY IS DOING FAIRLY WELL.

WE GOT ANOTHER BETTER THAN EXPECTED JOBS REPORT.

THE COUNTRY IS DOING MUCH BETTER THAN ANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY AND EVEN INFLATION WHICH REMAINS A THORNY ISSUE BUT HAS LOWERED SUBSTANTIALLY FROM ITS HIGHS.

THAT'S A POSITIVE FOR BIDEN.

AND YET IT'S NOT REFLECTED ANYWHERE IN THE POLL.

>> YEAH, VOTERS TEND TO BE A LAGGING INDICATOR IN THE ECONOMY.

WHEN I DO THE FOCUS GROUPS, PEOPLE HERE THAT THE MACRO ECONOMY IS IMPROVING.

UNTIL THEY SEE PRICES COME DOWN, ESPECIALLY FOR HOUSEHOLD ITEMS THAT THEY BUY EVERY DAY LIKE EGGS OR GAS, THAT'S WHERE THEY TEND TO REALLY FEEL THE PINCH.

AND I DO HERE IN EVERY FOCUS GROUP, WHETHER IT IS DEMOCRATS, SWING VOTERS OR REPUBLICANS, A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

SO THE QUESTION ABOUT THE MESSAGE.

DO I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT MESSAGE?

I DO.

I THINK IMMIGRATION AND THE ECONOMY WILL BE MAJOR ISSUES.

I DON'T HAVE CONCERNS.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THE MESSENGER.

DONALD TRUMP IS STILL A HUGE LIABILITY FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SWING VOTERS, EVEN IF THEY AGREE WITH HIM.

EVEN IF THEY'RE FRUSTRATED WITH BIDEN.

THEY FIND TRUMP TO BE A TOXIC AND PERNICIOUS FORCE ON THE COUNTRY, EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY PER SE.

THEY THINK HE'S A BAD PERSON.

THEY DON'T LIKE HIM.

ONCE IT BECOMES A CONTRAST ELECTION BETWEEN JOE BIDEN AND TRUMP, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BULL A PRO BIDEN COALITION.

YOU'RE BUILDING AN ANTITRUMP COALITION.

THAT INCLUDES A LOT OF SOFT GOP VOTERS AND RIGHT-LEANING INDEPENDENTS, COLLEGE VOTERS, USED TO VOTE REPUBLICAN BUT FOR WHOM TRUMP HAS BECOME A TOXIC FORCEFUL WHILE I THINK HIS MESSAGE COULD RESONATE WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE.

TRUMP IS A MESSENGER LIKE HE'S A KNOWN QUANTITY FOR HIS BASE.

HE'S A KNOWN QUANTITY FOR SWING VOTERS.

AND THEY'VE SAID NO FOR HIM BEFORE AND I THINK THEY'LL DO IT AGAIN.

>> WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME TODAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> TOMORROW MARKS THREE YEARS SINCE A MOB OF AMERICANS STORMED THE CAPITOL.

YET THE DARK SHADOW OF JANUARY 6th CONTINUES TO HANG OVER THE FATE OF THE U.S. DEMOCRACY.

ACCORDING TO A "WASHINGTON POST" UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND POLL, REPUBLICANS ARE MORE SYMPATHETIC TO THE RIOTERS AND MORE LOYAL TO DONALD TRUMP THAN THEY WERE IN 2021.

WHILE OVER A THIRD OF ALL AMERICANS NOW BELIEVE BIDEN'S ELECTION WAS ILLEGITIMATE.

ROBERT PAPE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHY POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS MOVED FROM THE MARGINS TO THE MAIN STREAM.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS SINCE THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.

YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT USING VIOLENCE AS A POLITICAL WEAPON.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN FINDING?

>> WE'VE BEEN FINDING QUITE A BIT THROUGH DETAILED STUDIES OF EVERY PERSON THAT HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR OFFENSES RELATED TO JANUARY 6th.

AND THEN ALSO, FOLLOWING UP THOSE STUDIES WITH DETAILED NATIONAL SURVEYS OF POLITICAL VIOLENT SENTIMENTS IN THE NATIONAL POPULATION.

THE BIG FINDING, WALTER, IS THAT THIS GOES WAY BEYOND, SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE GOES WAY BEYOND OATH KEEPERS AND PROUD BOYS.

WHAT WE ARE NOW SEEING ARE MAINSTREAM AMERICANS, AND EVEN AFFLUENT AMERICANS, PEOPLE WITH SOMETHING TO LOSE, WILLING TO SUPPORT VIOLENCE FOR THEIR POLITICAL GOALS.

AND THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR OUR SOCIETY TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

IT IS DIFFICULT FOR OUR POLITICIANS TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

DIFFICULT FOR THE MEDIA TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

IT IS THE REALITY THAT WE FACE, AND THAT WE FACED ON JANUARY 6th.

>> WHAT'S CAUSING THIS IN PEOPLE?

>> THERE IS A DIFFERENT CAUSES PROBABLY ON THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT.

SO WE'VE BEEN STUDYING NOT JUST SIMPLY SUPPORT FOR TRUMP.

THAT HAS BEEN OUR MAIN FOCUS.

ALSO ISSUES RELATED TO THE LEFT.

LET ME FOCUS ON THE MAIN THREAT WE FACE, WHICH IS THE MAIN THREAT WE FACE IS REALLY COMING FROM THE RIGHT.

WHY IS THAT THE CASE?

IN ORDER TO GET SERIOUS POLITICAL VIOLENCE, EITHER STRINGS OF LONE WOLF TERRORISM OR MASS VIOLENT COLLECTIVE INSTANCES LIKE WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th, YOU NEED A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

YOU NEED NOT JUST A LARGE AMOUNT OF VIOLENT SENTIMENTS IN THE MAIN STREAM OF THE PUBLIC, BUT POLITICAL FIGURES WILLING TO ACTIVATE THOSE SENTIMENTS.

WILLING THE EGG THEM ON.

THIS IS WHY DONALD TRUMP IS A DANGEROUS AND UNIQUELY DANGEROUS THREAT.

WHAT HE'S DEMONSTRATED ON JANUARY 6th AND EVEN AFTER IS BOTH THE CAPACITY AND WILLINGNESS TO INSPIRE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE TO USE VIOLENCE FOR HIS POLITICAL OBJECTIVES.

SO THAT IS REALLY THE DANGER FROM THE RIGHT.

NOW, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?

OUR STUDIES SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A SERIOUS BELIEF AND FEAR THAT THERE IS A DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY THAT IS HAPPENING MALICIOUSLY.

IT IS NOT JUST HAPPENING BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

MANY FIGURES ON THE RIGHT ARE TOUTING WHAT IS CALLED THE GREAT REPLACEMENT.

THIS IDEA THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS CLIDELIBERATELY AND MALICIOUSLY DECIDING TO CHANGE THE COMPOSITION OF THE ELECTORATE NOT OVER 40 OR 50 YEARS BUT IN THE NEAR TERM TO FUNDAMENTALLY SHIFT THE NATURE OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

YOU SEE THIS WITH DONALD TRUMP'S RHETORIC.

THESE ARE JUST TO NAME A FEW OF THE MANY, MANY INDIVIDUALS.

BOTH IN THE MEDIA AND POLITICAL FIGURES WHO ARE MAKING THIS ARGUMENT AND CAUSING PEOPLE TO BE VERY FEARFUL OF IMMIGRANTS AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE IN GENERAL.

IF YOU COMBINE THAT, FEAR WITH THE BELIEF THAT THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED, THAT YOU CAN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM THROUGH NORMAL PRIT CONSTITUTIONAL MEANS, NOW YOU HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR SERIOUS VIOLENCE AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING.

>> YOU SAY IT IS MAINLY ON THE RIGHT.

I SAW IN YOUR SURVEYS THAT 9%, WHICH IS A HIGHER NUMBER THAN ON THE RIGHT, 9% OF THE LEFT FEELS IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO USE VIOLENCE TO KEEP TRUMP FROM BEING PRESIDENT.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, WALTER.

WHAT WE'VE GOT IS NOT ONLY FOCUSED ON ONE SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WE WANT A 360 VIEW OF WHAT IS IN FRONT OF US.

WHAT WE SEE ON THE LEFT ARE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE MAIN STREAM WHO ARE, WOULD BE WILLING TO SUPPORT POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

AS YOU SAY, THE NUMBERS ARE SLIGHTLY HIGHER IN TERMS OF RAW NUMBERS ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS ON THE LEFT, THE MAIN LEADER OF THE LEFT, JOE BIDEN, HAS BEEN THE OPPOSITE OF DONALD TRUMP.

RATHER THAN POUR GASOLINE ON A FIRE WITH POLITICAL RHETORIC, TRYING TO STIMULATE VIOLENCE OR JUSTIFY POLITICAL VIOLENCE, WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IS EVEN FOR THOSE ON THE LEFT, HE'S BEEN TRYING TO TAMP DOWN THE MOVEMENT TOWARD POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND KEEP THAT ANGER VECTORED INTO POLITICS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS ON THE LEFT, YOU COULD END UP HAVING A POPULIST LEFT WING LEADER EMERGE WHO ATTEMPTS INTO THAT URGE FOR VIOLENCE?

>> YES, I'M SORRY TO SAY, THERE IS THAT POTENTIAL ON THE LEFT.

THIS POPULIST VIOLENT, I CALL IT VIOLENT POPULISM, WALTER, IS A COMBINATION OF TWO INGREDIENTS.

ONE IS MASS SENTIMENTS FOR VIOLENCE IN THE MAIN STREAM.

THE BODY POLITIC.

THE SECOND IS LEADERS WILLING TO STIMULATE AND TRIGGER THAT VIOLENCE.

ON THE RIGHT, WE HAVE BOTH OF THOSE INGREDIENTS.

THAT'S WHAT IS MAKING IT SO DANGEROUS ON THE RIGHT.

AND WHY WE SEE SOCIAL MEDIA INSTANCES OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

EVEN AGAINST CONGRESS.

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, WHICH TO REALLY ORIENT AROUND THEIR SUPPORT FOR DONALD TRUMP.

PEOPLE ON THE LEFT ARE RECEIVING VIOLENT THREATS AND THOSE ON THE LEFT ARE BEING THREATENED AS MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

WE'RE NOT SEEING IT TO THE SAME DEGREE ON THE LEFT.

WHY IS THAT?

IT'S NOT BECAUSE THERE'S NOT VIOLENT SENTIMENTS.

THERE'S ACTUALLY QUITE A BIT OF VIOLENT SENTIMENTS ON THE LEFT.

TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP OR ABORTION RIGHTS.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING, POLITICAL FIGURES ON THE LEFT ARE MAKE ITTING ACTIVE EFFORTS.

JOE BIDEN'S SPEECHES ON ROE V. WADE ARE A KEY EXAMPLE OF THIS.

ON JUNE 22nd, 2022.

THAT'S WHEN THE SUPREME COURT OVERTHREW ROE V. WADE.

THAT FRIDAY.

JOE BIDEN EARLY THAT MORNING GAVE A LONG PEACH.

HE WAS VERY OPPOSED TO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DID.

BUT HE HAS A BIG FAT PARAGRAPH IN THAT SPEECH.

NOT SIMPLY A ONE-LINER THAT SAYS DIRECTLY THAT THE LEFT, HIS CONSTITUENTS SHOULD NOT ACT OUT VIOLENTLY.

AND HE SAYS IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT WHY THIS WOULD BE WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS.

INSTEAD, SHOULD VECTOR THAT VIOLENCE TOWARD THE BALLOT BOX.

>> A WHOLE LOT OF INDICTMENTS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

DO THOSE INDICTMENTS END UP INCREASING THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF VIOLENCE TO KEEP, TO RESTORE HIM?

OR DOES IT TAMP DOWN THE SENTIMENT?

>> YEAH.

THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP ARE INCREASING NOT JUST VOTE FOR TRUMP BUT RADICAL VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP.

AND WE SEE THIS VERY CLEARLY IN OUR SURVEYS.

OUR NATIONAL SURVEYS, WE DO THEM EVERY QUARTER.

WHAT YOU CAN SEE IS YOU CAN SEE OVER TIME, A CLEAR SPIKE UP WITH THE RADICAL VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP, WITH THE FEDERAL INDICTMENTS FOR TRUMP.

AND THIS IS REALLY QUITE WORRISOME.

BECAUSE THAT'S THE COMPONENT, THAT RADICAL SUPPORT FOR TRUMP, WHICH IS ENCOURAGING THE VIOLENCE.

AND THAT'S WHAT IS UNDERNEATH THOSE CONTINUING WAVES OF VIOLENT THREATS.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST JOE BIDEN.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST OBAMA.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST THE PROSECUTORS.

IN THE LAST OF FEW DAYS, WE'VE HAD A WHOLE STRING OF THREATS AGAINST STATE HOUSES.

THAT'S COMING FROM THAT VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP WHICH IS GROWING.

SEPARATELY FROM VOTE FOR TRUMP.

AND THAT IS ENCOURAGING THE VIOLENCE AND THAT IS WHAT COULD GO, COULD BECOME EVEN MORE EXTREME AS WE GO THROUGH THE EVENTS OF 2024.

>> BACK TO JANUARY 6th AND THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL THERE, YOU TAKE SOME ISSUE ABOUT THE WAY PE PEOPLE, THE OATH KEEPERS AND THE PROUD BOYS.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WE'VE LEARNED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT IN THE LAST THREE YEARS ABOUT WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

ON JANUARY 6th, IF YOU LOOK AT THE IMAGES, WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS, PROBABLY THOUSANDS STORMING THE CAPITOL.

BUT THE MEDIA, AND MANY OTHERS, TENDED TO FOCUS ON A HANDFUL OF EXAMPLES.

THEY TENDED TO FOCUS ON THE IMAGE OF THE SHAMAN, FOR EXAMPLE.

THAT WAS A VERY VIVID IMAGE WE WILL ALL REMEMBER.

THEY TENDED TO FOCUS ON THE IMAGE OF AN OATH KEEPER, SOMEONE IN MILITARY GARB, FOR INSTANCE.

THAT'S VERY EASY TO FOCUS ON.

THAT VERY QUICKLY BECAME THAT THIS WAS TRUMP PLUS A HANDFUL OF NUTS HERE.

WELL, NOW THAT WE'VE STUDIED THE OVER 1,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED, WHAT WE SEE IS FULLY HALF ARE DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ARCHITECTS.

THEY ARE BUSINESS OWNERS.

THEY ARE CEOs, THEY ARE EXECUTIVES FROM INTEL.

THIS IS REALLY STUNNING.

ALL THE YEARS I'VE BEEN PROFILING INDIVIDUALS, I'VE NEVER HAD TO HAVE A CATEGORY CALLED BUSINESS OWNER.

YES, WE'VE HAD A FEW ODD EXAMPLES OF THE WHITE COLLAR.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S FULLY HALF OF THE INDIVIDUALS WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

AND THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE THAT SIMPLY WALKING THROUGH THIS KIND OF NONVIOLENT TRESPASS.

WHAT WE HAVE IN OUR DOCUMENTED STUDIES, CHICAGO PRIME TIME SECURITY AND THREATS, ARE IMAGE AFTER IMAGE OF A GYNECOLOGIST DOCTOR, THE FEMALE DOCTOR FROM BOSTON THAT WORKS AT A VERY FAMOUS BOSTON HOSPITAL DURING THE DAY.

WHAT IS SHE DOING?

SLUGGING IT OUT WITH POLICE IN THE ROTUNDA.

WE SEE THIS IN THE POLICE BODY CAM FILM.

WE HAVE INTEL COURT SLUGGING IT OUT WITH POLICE.

TAKING THEIR BATONS AND BASHING THEM OVER THE HEAD.

WE HAVE PICTURE AFTER PICTURE AFTER PICTURE.

SO I DON'T SIMPLY MEAN THESE MAIN STREAM AND AFFLUENT FOLKS WERE KIND OF SAUNTERING THROUGH THE CAPITOL OR BEING ESCORTED BY POLICE.

ONE GENTLEMAN, PERSON, WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE CHRISTMAS PARTY IN DECEMBER 2018.

THERE'S A PICTURE OF HIM WITH VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND LAURA TRUMP.

IT TAKES FIVE COPS TO HOLD THEM DOWN HE'S FIGHTING THEM SO HARD.

AND HE'S SAYING, SHOOT ME, SHOOT ME.

THIS IS EXTREMELY VIOLENT BEHAVIOR FROM WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BE MAIN STREAM, EVEN AFFLUENT INDIVIDUALS.

AND THIS IS THE STORY LINE THAT HAS BEEN BASICALLY MISSED AND I THINK IT IS BECAUSE, WHAT HAPPENED HERE IS QUITE UNDERSTANDABLY, THE MEDIA WANTED TO FOCUS ON SOME KEY EXAMPLES.

THEY'RE OFTEN LOOKING ON THE TELLING EXAMPLE TO CREATE THE NARRATIVE AND THE BASIC MEDIA HAS BEEN PROUD BOYS OATH KEEPERS.

AND OF COURSE, THAT MAKES IT VERY EASY.

THE FBI IS BUILT FOR ORGANIZATIONS TO PUT DOWN ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS.

THEY WERE BUILT TO TAKE DOWN ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THAT.

SO THAT MAKES IT VERY EASY TO FOCUS ON THESE GROUPS.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HOLE, IT'S A MUCH MORE DISTURBING PICTURE.

THE 90% OF WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL THAT THE PUBLIC REALLY HASN'T SEEN ARE MORE DISTURBING THAN THE 10% WE HAVE FOCUSED ON.

>> SO THOSE 90%, THE BUSINESS LEADERS AND DOCTORS, WHAT RADICALIZED THEM?

>> WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO POUR THROUGH ALL THE COURT DOCUMENTS FROM INDICTMENT TO SENTENCING FOR EACH OF THOSE OVER 1,000 PEOPLE.

IN MANY CASES, THERE ARE HUNDRED OF COURT DOCUMENTS RELATED TO EACH INDIVIDUAL.

AND WE CAN GO THROUGH ALL THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, THE OTHER STORIES IN LOCAL PAPERS.

WHAT YOU SEE IS THEY GAVE STATEMENTS.

MANY WERE PROUD OF WHAT THEY DID.

THEY WEREN'T HIDING.

THEY WERE TRUE BELIEVERS.

WHAT WERE THEY BELIEVING IN?

THEY WERE BELIEVING IN DONALD TRUMP'S STATEMENTS THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND NUMBER TWO, THAT THEY'RE DOING THIS TO SAVE DEMOCRACY.

SO IN THEIR VIEW, AND THIS VIEW IS COMING NOT JUST FROM THE MEDIA IN GENERAL AND ALEX JONES.

IT'S COMING FROM STATEMENTS FROM TRUMP.

MANY OF THEM ARE SAYING, I'M HERE BECAUSE TRUMP CALLED US HERE.

I'M HERE BECAUSE TRUMP TOLD US TO STOP THE STEAL.

THEY'RE EXPRESSING IT DIRECTLY IN TERMS OF TRUMP TOLD THEM TO.

WELL, HE IS THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHEN HE MAKES THESE STATEMENTS, WALTER, HE'S NOT SIMPLY HAS AN AUDIENCE OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

HE HAS THE AUTHORITY THAT COMES WITH THAT MANTLE.

AND FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE, HE IS STILL THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO THAT'S WHY, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

IT WOULD TAKE MORE OF AN ORCHESTRATED EFFORT.

BUT THAT'S ALSO WHY, WALTER, IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE.

WE'VE LEARNED A LOT IN THE THREE YEARS SINCE JANUARY 6th.

AND IT CHANGES THE NARRATIVE THAT WE HAVE ABOUT 90 DEGREES.

IT IS NOT 100% WRONG.

IT'S JUST OFTEN NOT THAT WE'RE MISSING THE CORE ELEMENTS OF THE REAL DANGERS TO DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED TRUMP SO MANY TIMES IN THIS DISCUSSION SO FAR.

IF TRUMP WERE NOT AROUND, WOULD THIS PHENOMENON DISAPPEAR?

>> WELL, TRUMP CLEARLY LAB THE LEADER OF THIS INSURRECTIONIST MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT IS FAIR TO CALL IT AN INSURRECTIONIST MOVEMENT.

THIS MOVEMENT IS WILLING.

AND TRUMP HAS THAT, TO DEPART EVEN FROM THE PRINCIPLES OF THE CONSTITUTION TO ACHIEVE THEIR POLITICAL GOALS.

HE'S CLEARLY BEEN THE LEADER.

THERE HAVE BEEN A GROWING NUMBER OF MINI TRUMPS AND SO FORTH WHO ARE COMING RIGHT OUT OF THE TRUMP PLAY BOOK.

THIS HAPPENS IN OTHER SOCIETIES AND OTHER TERRORIST GROUPS.

I SPENT 30 YEARS STUDYING TERRORIST GROUPS AROUND THE WORLD AND VIOLENT SOCIETIES AROUND THE WORLD.

MANY PEOPLE THINK, IF THE LEADER WOULD JUST GO AWAY, THEN EVERYTHING WOULD BE FINE.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS WHEN THE LEADER GOES AWAY, IN THESE VIOLENT MOVEMENTS, TYPICALLY YOU GET A YOUNGER, MORE AGGRESSIVE GENERATION WHO GOT TO PROVE THEMSELVES.

THEY ARE TYPICALLY PROVING THEMSELVES THROUGH VIOLENCE.

SO I THINK THERE'S A HOPE BY MANY PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO WAIT OUT TRUMP AND, OR SOMEHOW TRUMP WILL DISAPPEAR FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS AND THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE SIMPLY FINE.

THAT'S PUTTING, I THINK THAT'S MISSING THE FOREST THROUGH A VERY BIG TREE OF TRUMP.

BUT I THINK IT IS MISSING THE GENERAL LAND SCAPE THAT WE'VE NOW MOVED INTO.

>> ROBERT PAPE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, GOODBYE, GLYNIS JOHNS.

SHE DIED THURSDAY IN CALIFORNIA.

SHE WAS 100 YEARS OLD.

JOHNS' SIGNATURE HUSKY VOICE EARNED HER A TONY AWARD FOR STEEMPB SONDHEIM'S A LITTLE LIGHT MUSIC.

FOR MOST OF US SHE WILL REMEMBER REMEMBERED FOR MRS. BANKS IN "MARY POPPINS."

♪ THOUGH WE ADORE MEN INDIVIDUALLY ♪ ♪ WE AGREE THAT AS A GROUP THEY'RE RATHER STUPID ♪ TOSS OFF THE SHACKLES OF YESTERDAY ♪ ♪ SHOULDER TO SHOULDER INTO THE FRAY ♪ >> I GREW UP WATCHING HER.

WHAT A JOY EVEN 60 YEARS LATER.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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