October 17, 2019

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

TRUMP'S TOP TEAM IN TURKEY TO REIN IN ERDOGAN'S SYRIA OFFENSIVE.

ONE CLEAR WINNER OUT OF THIS CHAOS, RUSSIA.

WE TALK TO THE FORMER RUSSIAN PRIME MINISTER, MIKHAIL KASYANOV, THEN --

WE HAVE A DEAL.

ANOTHER PRIME MINISTER, ANOTHER BREXIT DEAL, BUT CAN THIS ONE PASS PARLIAMENT?

I TALK TO TONY BLAIR'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, JONATHAN POWELL.

AND --

PEOPLE ARE INCITING VIOLENCE AGAINST ME.

PEOPLE WOULD GIVE ME DEATH THREATS.

SOME WOULD GIVE ME RAPE THREATS.

A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST SINCE SHE WAS 16, PAKISTAN'S GULALAI ISMAIL TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT STANDING UP AGAINST ABUSE AND BEING FORCED INTO HIDING.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TOP U.S. OFFICIALS SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO AND VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE HAVE MADE A DESPERATE ATTEMPT TO GET PRESIDENT ERDOGAN TO STOP HIS BLOODY OFFENSIVE IN SYRIA AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP ESSENTIALLY GAVE IT THE GREEN LIGHT.

AMERICAN ALLIES, THE ISIS FIGHTING SYRIAN KURDS ARE NOW HOLDING MASS FUNERALS FOR THEIR DEAD AS THEY ACCUSE THE UNITED STATES OF ABANDONING THEM.

A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER IS UNDER WAY AMID CALLS FOR THE U.N. TO SOMEHOW STOP THIS.

IT HAS TRANSPIRED THAT AFTER THE BACKLASH AGAINST HIS MOVE, PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED APPEALING TO ERDOGAN HIMSELF THROUGH A LETTER THAT SURFACED YESTERDAY IN WHICH HE SAID, 'DON'T BE A TOUGH GUY.

DON'T BE A FOOL.'

AND BACK IN WASHINGTON, HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI REVEALED MORE DETAILS ABOUT THIS CON CONTEST CONTENTIOUS MEETING ABOUT ALL OF THIS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I ALSO POINTED OUT TO THE PRESIDENT THAT I HAD CONCERNS THAT ALL ROADS SEEM TO LEAD TO PUTIN.

THE RUSSIANS HAD BEEN TRYING TO GET A FOOTHOLD IN THE MIDDLE EAST FOR A VERY LONG TIME UNSUCCESSFULLY, AND NOW THE PRESIDENT HAS GIVEN THEM THE OPPORTUNITY.

THIS IS A MOUNTING CONCERN IN THE U.S. MILITARY AND AMONG U.S.

ALLIES.

MIKHAIL KASYANOV SERVED AS RUSSIA'S PRIME MINISTER DURING VLADIMIR PUTIN'S FIRST TIME, BUT NOW IS A VOCAL OPPONENT OF THE RUSSIAN LEADER AND IS JOINING ME NOW FROM LONDON.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

SO, CAN I ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON WHAT HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI SAID, THAT WHEN IT COMES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND VARIOUS ISSUES, ALL ROADS SEEM TO LEAD TO PUTIN AND THAT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA, PUTIN, HAS WANTED FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

AND AFTER A LONG ABSENCE, TRUMP HAS GIVEN THEM AN ENTREE BACK INTO THE MIDDLE EAST.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT FORMULATION?

I THINK TO A GREAT EXTENT, YES.

PUTIN JUST IS THE MAIN BENEFICIARY OF WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.

HE FOR MANY YEARS HAD SAID ASSAD IS LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT AND WE LEGALLY SUPPORT MILITARY SUPPORT THERE.

AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN IRAN, TURKEY, AND PUTIN, RIGHT NOW WE SEE THAT THE SITUATION DEVELOPS IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

ERDOGAN HEADING JUST INTO SYRIAN TERRITORY, CREATING A BUFFER ZONE, AND JUST WE SEE KURDS LEFT ON THE FIELD IN FRONT OF TURKISH TANKS.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND, I CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY THE U.S. PRESIDENT MADE SUCH A DECISION, JUST TO THE MOST IMPORTANT -- THE MOST, I WOULD SAY THE BEST ALLIES IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS, NOW LEFT ALONE WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT AND PROTECTION.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN THINKS ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY HE ALSO WAS PART OF -- I MEAN, HE SAID IT FROM THE UNITED NATIONS, THAT'S HIS SORT OF PUBLIC STANCE, ANYWAY, THAT HE, TOO, IS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS.

DO YOU THINK HE HAS ANY SYMPATHY FOR THE SYRIAN KURDS, OR IS HE KIND OF OKAY WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE NOW RUSSIAN FORCES HAVE RUSHED UP THERE?

MR. PUTIN IS OKAY ONLY WITH ONE ISSUE -- HOW TO KEEP PERSONAL POWER, AND TO DISMISS BY I WOULD SAY PROTEST DIFFERENT DICTATORS LIKE WE HAD BEFORE, NOW INCLUDING ASSAD.

FOR THEM, IT'S UNACCEPTABLE AT ALL.

THAT'S WHY HE'S FIGHTING FOR HIS OWN FUTURE, NOT TO HAVE ANOTHER EXAMPLE THAT DICTATOR COULD BE DISMISSED BY PEOPLE'S MOVEMENT WITH THE SUPPORT OF DIFFERENT OTHER ALLIES.

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO HIMSELF.

ABSOLUTELY.

SAME IN UKRAINE.

SAME IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU AGAIN, THOUGH, BECAUSE RUSSIANS SEEM TO BE -- THEY'RE HAPPY THAT THEIR LEADERSHIP, THAT THEIR COUNTRY IS PLAYING A MAJOR ROLE, AND ACTUALLY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU AGREE, BUT SORT OF FILLING A VACUUM THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN LEFT BY THE UNITED STATES, PROGRESSIVELY, AND NOW AT ITS PEAK WITH THIS ISSUE.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE PUTIN OBVIOUSLY MAKING HAY WITH WHAT'S GOING ON IN SYRIA.

PUTIN WAS IN SAUDI ARABIA NOT TOO LONG AGO.

PUTIN IS HERE, THERE, AND EVERYWHERE.

HE HAS VERY CLOSE TIES WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL.

DESPITE YOUR DIFFERENCES AND YOUR POLITICAL DIFFERENCES WITH PUTIN HIMSELF, AS A RUSSIAN, DO YOU THINK IT'S GOOD FOR RUSSIA TO BE ABLE TO FILL THIS VACUUM IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

RUSSIAN SOCIETY IS SPLIT APPROXIMATELY 50/50.

50% WHO SUPPORT PUTIN.

THEY ARE READY TO BE IN POSITION AND HAVE PATIENCE, AND THIS POST-EMPIRE, SOVIET EMPIRE SYNDROME WORKS WELL.

BUT OTHER 50%, MOSTLY MIDDLE CLASS LIVING IN THE BIG CITIES, OF COURSE, THE CONTRARY, ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THESE THINGS.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE A NORMAL EUROPEAN STATE SO THAT HUMAN RIGHTS WILL BE PROTECTED, AND THEIR RIGHTS TO WORK TO BE ELECTED AND ELECT WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED IN PRACTICE, BUT PUTIN IGNORING THIS.

THAT'S WHY HE NEEDS SHORT VICTORIES, QUICK VICTORIES, TO RAISE PERSONAL LEGITIMACY OUTSIDE RUSSIA, BECAUSE INSIDE RUSSIA HE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH LEGITIMACY.

THAT'S INTERESTING.

THAT'S WHY SHORT VICTORIOUS WAR IN SYRIA, THAT IS SOURCE OF PROPAGANDA.

AND NOW JUST THESE 50% APPLAUDING MR. PUTIN THAT, FINALLY, HE GOT WHAT HE WANTED.

HE'S BRINGING BACK TOGETHER WITH ERDOGAN AND IRANIAN AUTHORITY, BRINGING BACK ALMOST THE WHOLE TERRITORY OF SYRIA AND ASSAD'S CONTROL.

WHICH SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST HEARTBROKEN BY BECAUSE FOR THE LAST MANY YEARS, PERHAPS FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS, IN FACT, THAT BAND UP THERE IN NORTHERN SYRIA WAS STABILIZED.

THERE WAS PEACE UP THERE, AND THE KURDS WERE FIGHTING ISIS AND ALL OF THAT, AND THIS HAS ALL GONE UP IN SMOKE NOW.

AND ASSAD WILL, AS YOU SAY, REGAIN THE MAJORITY OF HIS TERRITORY.

AND WILL START PUNISHING THOSE KURDS WHO WAS JUST PLAYING GAMES WITH AMERICANS.

AND NOW JUST EVERYTHING COMING BACK, UNFORTUNATELY.

THAT IS DISASTER.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, THEN, WHEN YOU SEE THIS PICTURE IN YOUR MIND?

I MEAN, YOU'VE TALKED NOW JUST ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY ANOTHER BLOODBATH.

FIRST THE TURKISH BLOOD BATH, THEN THE ASSAD BLOOD BATH, ALTHOUGH THE KURDS HAVE MADE A DEAL WITH ASSAD FOR THE MOMENT.

DO YOU SEE ISIS RISING AGAIN?

MANY PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT ISIS RISING BECAUSE OF ALL THIS.

IT COULD BE, BECAUSE THOSE KURDS, FIGHTERS, THEY WILL NOT UNDERTAKE ANY FURTHER EFFORTS.

AND THEY ALREADY MENTIONED THIS.

THERE IS INFORMATION SOMEWHERE I READ ON INTERNET, THEY SAID JUST IN THIS CASE WE WILL NOT CONTINUE FIGHTING.

WHICH MEANS JUST REINTEGRATION OF ISIS POTENTIALLY POSSIBLE.

PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS EITHER SUMMONED OR AGREED TO HAVE A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN IN SOCHI NEXT WEEK.

THE PRESIDENTIAL SPOKESMAN IS SAYING THAT THEY'RE VERY, YOU KNOW, UPSET AT WHAT -- THE RUSSIANS ARE SAYING THEY'RE UPSET AT WHAT TURKEY IS DOING IN NORTHERN SYRIA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

AND WE KNOW MIKE POMPEO AND VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE ARE TRYING TO GET ERDOGAN TO STOP OR SLOW DOWN.

I MEAN, FROM WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THE REGION, CAN THEY HAVE AN EFFECT ON ERDOGAN?

CAN PUTIN HAVE AN EFFECT ON ERDOGAN?

I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT, SOME KIND OF DEAL, AND ERDOGAN WOULD ESTABLISH THIS BUFFER ZONE AND WILL PUSH THOSE 3.5 MILLION OF REFUGEES SEEKING TERRITORY IN TURKEY AND JUST PROVIDE THEM WITH FOOD AND THE MEDICINE GIVEN ON THE MONEY OF EUROPEAN UNION, BUT HE PUSH THEM IN TERRITORY OF SYRIA, SAY YOU ARE SYRIANS, LIVE THERE, AND LET INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY PROVIDE THE PROPER SUPPORT, NOT ERDOGAN, BUT INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

AND THE WHOLE COUNTRY BACK UNDER ASSAD'S CONTROL.

IT IS ACTUALLY REMARKABLE.

LET ME JUST MOVE TO DOMESTIC RUSSIAN POLITICS AND PROTESTS.

YOU, AS I SAID, WERE PRIME MINISTER UNDER VLADIMIR PUTIN.

YOU THEN BECAME A VOCAL OPPONENT AND YOU'VE TRIED TO RUN AGAINST HIM.

WE'VE SEEN UNPRECEDENTED PROTESTS THIS SUMMER IN RUSSIA.

HOW DO YOU ANALYZE THEM?

ARE THEY WHAT WE SEE IN THE OUTSIDE?

ARE THEY UNPRECEDENTED?

ARE THEY MEANINGFUL?

DO THEY HAVE ANY HOPE OF BREAKING THROUGH?

THERE'S A NEW WAVE.

THERE'S NEW DEVELOPMENT IN RUSSIA, AND I AM VERY HAPPY THAT IT'S HAPPENING.

NEW GENERATION FOR THE FIRST TIME APPEARED ON THE STREETS BECAUSE OF SIMPLE REASON -- THEY WANTED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE REGIONAL ELECTIONS TO MOSCOW DUMA, MOSCOW PARLIAMENT OF CITY OF MOSCOW.

MOSCOW IS 10% OF POPULATION.

IT IS AN IMPORTANT PART, IMPORTANT REGION, NOT JUST A CITY, IMPORTANT REGION OF RUSSIA.

AND THESE NEW GUYS WANTED TO ELIMINATE THEIR CANDIDATES AND WANTED TO WORK FOR THEM, BUT THEY WERE CUT ON BOTH.

WE'RE SEEING PICTURES OF THOSE PROTESTS.

THAT'S WHY THE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS JUST TO PROTECT THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, THEIR FREEDOM, WHICH THEY THOUGHT IT'S UNTOUCHABLE.

IT APPEARS TO BE DOESN'T EXIST.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THE UNPRECEDENTED TURNOUT OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE IS SAYING OR BEING FELT IN THE KREMLIN?

IN KREMLIN, PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED ABOUT THAT.

THEY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY DECIDED TO SUPPRESS ALL THESE DEMONSTRATIONS AND THE AWFUL TEACHINGS HOW PEOPLE WERE BEATEN WITHOUT ANY REASONING.

IT IS PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION.

I WILL SAY SINCE, WHEN THE FIRST ANTI-PUTIN DEMONSTRATIONS STARTED IN 2006 UNTIL NOW, THERE WAS NO BROKEN WINDOW, NO BROKEN CAR IN THE STREETS OF MOSCOW, BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE BEATEN BY POLICE, AND SOME OF THEM IN THE JAIL.

AND NOW, AGAIN, 14, 15 PEOPLE ALREADY UNDER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, SOME OF THEM ALREADY IN JAIL.

ALEXEI NAVALNY IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST NAMES OF THE PROTEST LEADERS IN RUSSIA TODAY, AND HE HAS SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, SURE, THEY CAN PUT ME INTO JAIL, BUT EVERY TIME THEY DO, ANOTHER BIG PROTEST HAPPENS.

AND THIS IS JUST LIKE A SELF, YOU KNOW, LIKE A CONSTANT, VICIOUS CIRCLE.

DOES NAVALNY HAVE ANY HOPE OF CHALLENGING PUTIN ANY TIME SOON?

I MEAN, IS ANY OPPOSITION GOING TO BE ABLE TO -- THE NEXT ELECTIONS ARE IN 2021.

I TELL YOU JUST NOT BRIGHT STORY, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT WE FOR MANY YEARS CANNOT BE UNITED, I MEAN DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION.

AND THERE IS MAJOR REASON WHY PEOPLE NOT SO ENTHUSIASTIC.

I WILL SAY AS SOON AS YOU ARE UNITED, WE WILL SUPPORT YOU WIDER.

NAVALNI IS ONE OF THE LEADERS, BUT HE IS THE BRIGHTEST LEADER ON THE STREET, BUT HE IS NOT THE LEADER OF WHOLE OPPOSITION.

THERE SHOULD BE A COMBINATION OF ALL POLITICAL GROUPS.

IN FACT, WE HAVE FOUR INDEPENDENT POLITICAL GROUPS.

IF WE UNITE OURSELVES AND START PREPARING NOW, THEN SEPTEMBER 2021 COULD BE A TURNING POINT, BECAUSE IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL EVENT, ELECTIONS TO FEDERAL DUMA.

AND IN THIS CASE, IF WE ARE UNITED, IN THE STREETS WILL BE 100,000 PEOPLE, 500,000 PEOPLE.

MR. PUTIN WILL REALIZE THAT RELAXATION SHOULD STARTED.

OTHERWISE, REVOLUTION WOULD BE INEVITABLE.

GOSH, THAT'S PRETTY DRAMATIC.

LET ME NOW GET BACK TO PUTIN AND THE UNITED STATES.

JUST LAST WEEK, OR OVER THE WEEKEND, HE MADE THIS COMMENT ABOUT, AGAIN, HE TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE BETTER RELATIONS WITH THE U.S. BUT ALWAYS, HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, EVENTS INTERVENE.

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]

OKAY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE MEANS BY THAT?

I THINK JUST MR. PUTIN WOULD LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO MAKE A GIFT TO MR. PUTIN.

THE GIFT MEANS TO START TREATING RUSSIA AS A SPECIAL CASE, LIKE IN THE PAST SOVIET UNION, LIKE CHINA NOW, BUT MAYBE JUST NOT GOOD EXAMPLE WITH RESPECT TO TRUMP AND CHINA, BUT SOMETHING THAT IS DIFFERENT, NOT LIKE A PART OF INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS LIKE OECE AGREEMENT WHEN MR. PUTIN DESTROYED THE WHOLE ARCHITECTURE OF EUROPEAN SECURITY, NOT LIKE HUMAN RIGHTS CONVENTION, EUROPEAN CONVENTION HUMAN RIGHTS.

MR. PUTIN VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS EVERY DAY.

HE WANTS A SPECIAL PERMISSION, SPECIAL TICKET FROM MR. TRUMP AND EUROPEAN UNION, TOO, JUST TO BEHAVE AND TO INTERPRET INTERNATIONAL LAW IN THE WAY MR. PUTIN WANTS.

SYRIA IS ONE OTHER EXAMPLE.

UKRAINE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

OKAY, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT UKRAINE IN THE FINAL QUESTION.

DO YOU THINK, AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID, THAT THIS WHOLE SITUATION WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE, YOU KNOW, CONVERSATION WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKIY AND THE SUPPOSED QUID PRO QUO AND THE HOLDING UP OF AID AND ALL THE REST OF IT IS A GIFT TO MR. PUTIN?

HE'S A WINNER OUT OF ALL OF THIS?

FOR ME, IT'S THE MAIN CONCERN IS THAT UKRAINE BADLY NEEDS SUPPORT, INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT RIGHT NOW.

THIS COUNTRY JUST DESERVES TO BE SUPPORTED, TO BUILD UP A DEMOCRATIC STATE.

AND THEY NOW HAVE PROBLEMS, NOT ONLY CRIMEA, ANNEXED BY MR. PUTIN, BUT ALSO IN EAST PART OF UKRAINE.

AND THEY'RE ASKING THE UNITED STATES FOR MILITARY SUPPORT.

UNITED STATES IS RESPONSIBLE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND TO SUPPORT TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY IN SOVEREIGN TERRITORY OF UKRAINE AS PROTOCOL OF 1994, AND THAT IS A LEGITIMATE, I WOULD SAY APPROACH TO PRESIDENT TRUMP BY PRESIDENT ZELENSKIY.

HELP US.

HELP US TO KEEP OUR SOVEREIGNTY, AND IN RETURN, SOME KIND OF, I WOULD SAY NOT DECISION-MAKING PROCESS AS USUALLY UNITED STATES JUST DEMONSTRATED.

WE DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND PEOPLE IN UKRAINE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON, WHY IT'S FACED WITH SUCH A PROBLEM.

WELL, IT IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE BACKFIRED FOR MR. ZELENSKIY.

WE'LL SEE HOW IT PROCEEDS.

FORMER RUSSIAN PRIME MINISTER MIKHAIL KASYANOV, THANK YOU VERY FOR JOINING US.

MY PLEASURE.

> AND NOW A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE JOINED THEIR DEMOCRATIC COUNTERPARTS TO CONDEMN THE PRESIDENT'S SYRIAN MOVES AND NOW THE AMBASSADOR TO THE EU IS TESTIFYING TO THE CONGRESSIONAL IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S MOVES IN UKRAINE.

POLITICAL APPOINTEE GORDON SONDLAND SAYS THAT TRUMP DIRECTED HIM TO WORK THROUGH RUDY GIULIANI, THE PRESIDENT'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, RATHER THAN GOVERNMENT CHANNELS.

HERE'S PART OF HIS OPENING STATEMENT.

HE SAYS, 'WE WERE ALSO DISAPPOINTED BY THE PRESIDENT'S DIRECTION THAT WE INVOLVE MR. GIULIANI.

OUR VIEW WAS THAT THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT, NOT THE PRESIDENT'S PERSONAL LAWYER, SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL ASPECTS OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS UKRAINE.'

NOW, NINA JANKOWICZ IS A UKRAINE EXPERT AT THE WILSON CENTER AND SHE'S JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, NINA JANKOWICZ.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

CAN I ASK YOU PERHAPS A FOLLOW UP A LITTLE ON WHAT THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER HAS JUST SAID, THAT, LOOK, HERE YOU HAVE A NEW UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT.

HE DESPERATELY -- OBVIOUSLY, HE WAS, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY AS A NEOPHYTE TO POLITICS IN UKRAINE AS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT HE WANTS HELP, HE WANTS MILITARY AID.

HE'S GOT THE RUSSIANS STILL FIGHTING IN EASTERN UKRAINE, STILL ANNEXING CRIMEA, AND HE MAKES THIS SORT OF SOMEHOW APPEAL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HAS HE JUST BEEN, I DON'T KNOW -- IS IT HIS NAIVETE THAT'S TRIPPED HIM UP OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON, DO YOU THINK?

NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S HIS NAIVETE AT ALL.

I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKIY HAD ONE CHOICE -- HE HAD TO GO AND REPRESENT UKRAINE AND THE 70% OF THE UKRAINIAN POPULATION THAT VOTED HIM INTO OFFICE AS BEST HE COULD WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THOSE PHONE CALLS HE HAD IN ORDER TO GET THAT MILITARY AID AND THE OTHER DEMOCRATIC SUPPORT THAT THE UNITED STATES GIVES TO UKRAINE, OVER $500 MILLION IN 2017, AND THAT WAS ZELENSKY'S ONE CHANCE, ESSENTIALLY, TO APPEAL TO MR. TRUMP AND SAY, HELP ME END THIS WAR, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS THAT HE WAS ELECTED ON.

SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT TRANSCRIPT AND THE PHONE CALL AND YOU HEAR WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID SINCE, I MEAN, HE SAYS THIS WAS A PERFECT PHONE CALL.

ON THESE ISSUES THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKIY, HOW WOULD YOU INTERPRET THAT?

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

WELL, I DON'T THINK IT WAS A PERFECT PHONE CALL FOR UKRAINE AND I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK IT WAS A PERFECT PHONE CALL FOR THE UNITED STATES EITHER.

WE NEED TO BE SUPPORTING UKRAINE IN ITS PATH TOWARDS DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT, IN ITS ANTICORRUPTION WORK, NOT WEAPONIZING THAT CORRUPTION THAT EXISTS IN UKRAINE AND CREATING DISINFORMATION AROUND IT IN ORDER TO MEET OUR OWN DOMESTIC POLITICAL GAINS.

IT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE ROLE THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS PLAYED IN THE PAST AND ONE THAT I HOPE WE DON'T PLAY IN THE FUTURE.

WELL, YOU KNOW, AND WE SORT OF INTRODUCED THIS CONCEPT AS WE WERE COMING TO YOU, THAT NOW THE EU AMBASSADOR, THE U.S. EU AMBASSADOR, GORDON SONDLAND, IS TESTIFYING, AND YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A LOOK AT HIS OPENING STATEMENT WHERE HE ACTUALLY SAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE THOUGHT IT BETTER TO GO THROUGH GOVERNMENT CHANNELS, BUT WE WERE DIRECTED TO GO THROUGH RUDY GIULIANI.

AND HE WENT ON TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE ALL AGREED PERHAPS THAT WAS THE BEST WAY TO GO.

IT WASN'T UNTIL LATER THAT WE THOUGHT PERHAPS THERE WAS AN ULTERIOR MOTIVE ON GIULIANI'S PART AND HIS HENCHMEN -- AND HIS ASSOCIATES' PART.

TELL US WHAT YOU -- HOW DO YOU ANALYZE WHAT'S GOING ON IN -- WITH ALL THESE AMBASSADORS AND TRUMP APPOINTEES, NOT TO MENTION THE FIRED OR RECALLED OFFICIAL U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE?

WELL, I THINK IT'S A VERY MURKY SITUATION.

I WAS IN UKRAINE DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THIS SPRING COVERING IT, AND ALL THE SMEARING OF AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH STARTED JUST TEN DAYS BEFORE THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THE FIRST ROUND.

AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, THIS IS A TERRIBLE TIME FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF U.S. POLITICS TO BE UNDERMINING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN UKRAINE.

WE NEED TO BE SENDING A SIGNAL OF SUPPORT, NOT ONE OF CONFUSION AND THIS INCONGRUENCE BETWEEN OFFICIAL POLICY AND WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE AND TRUMP'S ASSOCIATES ARE SAYING AND DOING.

AND FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, IT WAS CLEAR THAT MR. GIULIANI AND OTHERS SURROUNDING PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE ATTEMPTING TO SMEAR THE AMBASSADOR, A CAREER AMBASSADOR WHO HAS SERVED UNDER REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS AND IS ALWAYS PITCH PERFECT IN EVERYTHING SHE SAYS -- HER SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, HER SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY WRIT LARGE.

THAT'S THE SORT OF MESSAGE THAT THE UNITED STATES NEEDED TO BE SENDING.

AND NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, AS WE KNOW, AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH WAS RECALLED OSTENSIBLY BECAUSE OF THE WORK SHE DID IN UKRAINE AND THE STRONG SUPPORT THAT SHE HAD IN TERMS OF DELIVERING THAT U.S.

STANCE, WHICH WE HAD TAKEN FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

SO, LET ME TALK TO YOU, BECAUSE THIS ALL BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO THE ANTICORRUPTION FIGHT THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN, AS YOU SAY, FOR MANY YEARS, TO UKRAINE.

AND IT'S TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, PERSUADE UKRAINIANS THAT THEY NEED TO GET SERIOUS ON THIS.

AS PART OF HER OPENING STATEMENT, AND AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH TESTIFIED IN DEFIANCE OF THE BAN BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

SHE WENT UP TO CAPITOL HILL.

AND PART OF WHAT SHE SAID WAS, 'I DO NOT KNOW MR. GIULIANI'S MOTIVES FOR ATTACKING ME, BUT INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN NAMED IN THE PRESS AS CONTACTS OF MR. GIULIANI MAY WELL HAVE BELIEVED THAT THEIR PERSONAL FINANCIAL AMBITIONS WERE STYMIED BY OUR ANTICORRUPTION POLICY IN UKRAINE.'

AND WE KNOW SINCE THAT SEVERAL OF THESE ASSOCIATES OF MR. GIULIANI HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, AND THEY ARE UNDER INVESTIGATION BECAUSE OF THESE ALLEGATIONS.

TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THAT KIND OF CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE AND WHERE UKRAINE IS VULNERABLE IN TERMS OF CORRUPTION AND HOW THEIR PROSECUTORS ARE WORKING AND WHAT THE U.S. EFFORT HAS BEEN TO TRY TO STOP THAT.

CERTAINLY.

WELL, SINCE THE REVOLUTION OF DIGNITY OR THE EURAMAIDAN REVOLUTION WHICH TOOK PLACE IN 2013-2014, UKRAINE HAS MADE A LOT OF EFFORTS TO REFORM ITS JUDICIAL SYSTEM, TO REFORM ITS POLICE SYSTEM, TO STOP BRIBE-TAKING.

IT'S MADE MORE PROGRESS IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS THAN IT HAS IN THE PAST 30 TOTAL.

BUT THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE STILL OPPORTUNITIES FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH ULTERIOR MOTIVES TO EXPLOIT THAT SYSTEM.

WE SAW THIS WITH MR. MANAFORT.

WE SEE IT WITH OTHER INDIVIDUALS AND POLITICAL CONSULTANTS WHO GO NOT ONLY TO UKRAINE BUT OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE POST-SOVIET SPACE IN ORDER TO PEDDLE THESE ILLICIT DEALS.

AND CERTAINLY, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS WORKED AGAINST, AND WE HAVE SUPPORTED UKRAINE IN ITS ANTICORRUPTION EFFORTS.

I FIND IT IRONIC THAT THE FOLKS WHO ARE SEEKING OUT THESE DEALS, AND OF COURSE, MR. GIULIANI HIMSELF IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAS DONE THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR -- YOU CAN LOOK UP SOME REPORTING BY CASEY MICHELLE THAT IS EXCELLENT ON THIS TOPIC.

I FIND IT IRONIC THAT HE'S ATTACKING ANTICORRUPTION ACTIVISTS LIKE DARIA FROM THE ANTICORRUPTION ACTIVISM CENTER IN UKRAINE WHO HAS PUT HER PERSONAL SAFETY ON THE LINE IN ORDER TO ENCOURAGE THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT TO PROSECUTE THESE CASES.

THESE ARE THE TYPES OF PEOPLE THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE SUPPORTING NOT ATTACKING.

YOU ARE AN EXPERT ON DISINFORMATION.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS, WHERE DO YOU SEE THE MAIN TENTACLES OF DISINFORMATION?

WELL, I MEAN, I SEE FIVE OR FOUR DIFFERENT CONSPIRATORIAL NARRATIVES ROLLED INTO ONE HERE.

WE HAVE THIS DISINFORMATION ABOUT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE SUPPOSED ASK HE MADE OF PRESIDENT POROSHENKO TO PROTECT HIS SON.

OF COURSE, THIS ISN'T TRUE.

HE ASKED FOR A FORMER CORRUPT PROSECUTOR TO BE FIRED IN ORDER TO RELEASE A LOAN GUARANTEE, NOT TO PROTECT HIS SON.

FIRING THAT PROSECUTOR ACTUALLY MADE HIS SON MORE VULNERABLE TO PROSECUTION.

WE HAVE THIS NARRATIVE THAT THE DNC SERVERS OR HILLARY CLINTON'S EMAIL SERVERS ARE SOMEHOW LOCATED IN UKRAINE.

WE HAVE A NARRATIVE THAT THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT COLLUDED WITH THE DEMOCRATS IN ORDER TO THROW THE ELECTION FOR HILLARY CLINTON.

NONE OF THIS IS TRUE, AND ALL OF THIS IS BEING THROWN INTO ONE DISINFORMATION NARRATIVE IN ORDER TO CONFUSE VOTERS, AND ULTIMATELY, AS YOU WERE SAYING TO PRIME MINISTER KASYANOV IN THE EARLIER SEGMENT, THE WINNER HERE IS RUSSIA BECAUSE IT'S UNDERMINING UKRAINE'S NEW DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, IT'S UNDERMINING SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE, NOT ONLY FROM THE UNITED STATES BUT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AND PUTTING AT RISK UKRAINE'S FURTHER EURO-ATLANTIC INTEGRATION.

AND FINALLY, IT'S SAYING TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD THAT U.S. DEMOCRACY AND U.S. SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY CAN BE BOUGHT, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA WANTS.

ALL OF THIS MURKINESS JUST PUTS A BIG MEDAL IN PRESIDENT PUTIN'S LAP AND UNDERMINES OUR SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY WRIT LARGE AROUND THE WORLD, AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES ME MOST UPSET ABOUT WHAT WE'VE LEARNED OVER THE PAST COUPLE WEEKS.

YEAH, THESE ARE INDEED FRAGILE AND TROUBLING TIMES.

NINA JANKOWICZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

> WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP FIGHTS OFF IMPEACHMENT, HIS FRIEND IN BRITAIN, PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON, IS TRYING TO BRING ON BREXIT.

TODAY, THE UK AND THE EU ANNOUNCED A DEAL, BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT THIS LONG, SORRY SAGA IS OVER?

FAR FROM IT, BECAUSE IT STILL HAS TO PASS BOTH EUROPEAN AND UK PARLIAMENTS, SOMETHING IT'S FAILED TO DO IN THE PAST.

IT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN AN EASY EXPERIENCE FOR THE UK.

IT'S BEEN LONG, IT'S BEEN PAINFUL, IT'S BEEN DIVISIVE.

AND NOW IS THE MOMENT FOR US AS A COUNTRY TO COME TOGETHER.

NOW IS THE MOMENT FOR OUR PARLIAMENTARIANS TO COME TOGETHER AND GET THIS THING DONE.

NOW, THE STICKING POINT FOR BREXIT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT BRITAIN'S EXIT WILL MEAN REINTRODUCING BORDER POSTS ON THE FRONTIER BETWEEN NORTHERN IRELAND, WHICH REMAINS PART OF THE UK AND THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND, WHICH IS IN THE EU.

TODAY, THE CHIEF EU NEGOTIATOR SAID PEACE IN IRELAND IS HIS PRIORITY.

LET ME SAY VERY FRANKLY THAT FOR ME, SINCE DAY ONE, SINCE THREE YEARS, WHAT REALLY MATTERS ARE THE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE OF NORTHERN IRELAND AND IRELAND.

WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS PEACE.

THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT OF 1998 ENDED THE 30-YEAR SECTARIAN CONFLICT IN WHICH MORE THAN 3,500 PEOPLE DIED, AND THAT COMPLEX, PAINFUL PERIOD OF HISTORY IS WHY THIS IS SO COMPLEX AND FRAGILE.

JONATHAN POWELL IS TONY BLAIR'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF AND CHIEF GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATOR FOR THAT GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT, AND HE'S JOINING ME HERE IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU.

TO TRY TO MAKE SOME SENSE OF ALL OF THIS.

SO, FIRST AND FOREMOST, DO YOU THINK THAT BORIS JOHNSON HAS PULLED OFF WHAT THERESA MAY COULDN'T?

WELL, HE'S SORT OF A RATHER EXTRAORDINARY JOURNEY OF NEGOTIATION WHERE HE HAS, IN FACT, ADOPTED SOMETHING THERESA MAY ORIGINALLY ACCEPTED, THE ORIGINAL BACKSTOP, WHICH MEANT THAT NORTHERN IRELAND REMAINED IN THE CUSTOMS UNION IN A SINGLE MARKET.

SHE WENT TO BRUSSELS, SAT WITH JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, WAS CALLED HUMILIATINGLY CALLED BACK SAYING, NO, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT AND SHE PULLED OFF OF IT.

SHE FAMOUSLY SAID NO PRIME MINISTER CAN SIGN ON TO THAT.

CAN I PLAY THAT SOUND BITE?

I'LL PLAY IT AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT.

THE DRAFT LEGAL TEXT THE COMMISSION HAVE PUBLISHED WOULD, IF IMPLEMENTED, UNDERMINE THE UK COMMON MARKET AND THREATEN CONSTITUTIONAL INTEGRITY OF THE UK BY CREATING A CUSTOMS AND REGULATORY BORDER DOWN THE IRISH SEA, AND NO UK PRIME MINISTER COULD EVER AGREE TO IT.

SO, I WANTED TO PLAY IT BECAUSE YOU REFERRED TO IT, BUT ALSO, WHO IS THERE IN THE BACKGROUND AS FOREIGN SECRETARY, ONE BORIS JOHNSON, WHO WAS BUSY NODDING THAT NO BRITISH PRIME MINISTER COULD AGREE TO IT, BUT NOW YOU SAY HE IS.

HE HAS AGREED TO IT, AND HE IS A MAN OF NO PARTICULAR FIXED PRINCIPLES AND HE HAS NO DIFFICULTY AGREEING TO SOMETHING HE'S CONTRADICTED BEFORE.

BUT IT DOES CREATE HIS OWN PROBLEMS.

THE GOOD NEWS IS, BY GOING INTO THE SINGLE MARKET IN THE CUSTOMS UNION AS ORIGINALLY PROPOSED, WE WILL AVOID A HARD BORDER BETWEEN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

THAT IS GOOD.

THAT WILL HELP PRESERVE THE PEACE.

THE PROBLEM IS, SOMEONE'S RIGHTS WERE ALWAYS GOING TO GET TRAMPLED ON.

THERE HAS TO BE A BORDER SOMEWHERE BECAUSE WE'RE LEAVING.

CAN IRELAND BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH OR BETWEEN THE REST OF THE UK AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

WHAT HE'S OPTED FOR BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE CAN GET FROM THE EU IS A HARD BORDER BETWEEN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE REST OF THE UK.

THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM FOR THE UNIONISTS, WHO BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE A UNITED KINGDOM AND THEY SHOULD BE A PART OF IT.

THEY CAN'T HAVE A HARD BORDER.

AND YOU KNOW THOSE PEOPLE VERY WELL BECAUSE, IN FACT, YOU NEGOTIATED WITH THEM.

THE UNION, THIS PARTICULAR UNIONIST PARTY, WHO FORMED THE ALLIANCE WITH BORIS JOHNSON IN PARLIAMENT ARE ACTUALLY REALLY HARD LINE.

THEY DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR THE PEACE AGREEMENT, DID THEY?

THEY DIDN'T EVEN COME TO GOOD FRIDAY NEGOTIATIONS.

IN FACT, THE ONLY TIME THEY CAME WAS TO MARCH WITH DRUMS TO PROTEST AGAINST IT, BUT THEY SIGNED UP LATER TO IT AT ST.

ANDREWS.

THEY BASICALLY ACCEPTED IT LATER, BUT THEY WEREN'T THERE AT THE TIME.

THEY ARE HARD LINE, BUT THEY ARE ALSO UNIONISTS AND THEIR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN TRAMPLED ON BY PUTTING THIS HARD BORDER IN.

OKAY.

LET'S READ THEIR STATEMENT.

THEY SAY 'THE GOVERNMENT HAS DEPARTED FROM THE PRINCIPLE THAT THESE ARRANGEMENTS MUST BE SUBJECT TO CONSENT OF BOTH UNIONISTS AND NATIONALISTS IN NORTHERN IRELAND.

THIS DRIVES A COACH AND HORSES THROUGH THE PROFESSED SANCTITY OF THE BELFAST AGREEMENT.'

I MEAN, THEY'RE SETTING THEMSELVES UP NOT TO VOTE FOR THIS WHEN THERE'S AN EMERGENCY SESSION, FIRST TIME SINCE 1982 IN THE FALKLANDS WAR THAT THERE IS AN EMERGENCY SESSION OF THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT ON SATURDAY, ON A SATURDAY, AND IT'S THIS SATURDAY.

GIVEN THE MATH, GIVEN WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT ALL OF THIS, GIVEN THE DUP STATEMENT, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE LABOR PARTY, THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY, THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND ALL OF THE OTHER PARTIES SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR IT, WHAT DO YOU THINK'S GOING TO HAPPEN ON SATURDAY?

IT LOOKS TO ME -- BUT YOU'RE NOT SURE BECAUSE SO MANY SURPRISING THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN BRITISH POLITICS AT THE MOMENT -- THEY WILL NOT GET IT THROUGH.

WITHOUT THE DUP -- THAT'S THE TEN DOWN -- THEY'RE GOING TO GET VERY FEW LABOR REBELS VOTING WITH THEM BECAUSE OF THE ANTAGONISTIC POSITION THAT BORIS JOHNSON HAS TAKEN.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A NO, MA'AM OF PEOPLE THAT HE'S THROWN OUT OF THE TORY PARTY NOT VOTING WITH HIM.

HE DOES NOT HAVE THE NUMBERS TO GET THAT THROUGH AT THE MOMENT ON SATURDAY, AND THAT THEN FORCES HIM TOWARDS THE 31st OF OCTOBER AND THAT DATE.

SO, HE'S GOT A REAL PROBLEM IN TERMS OF THAT.

AND THE DUP, I DO UNDERSTAND THEIR POSITION.

NOT ONLY ARE THEY PUTTING A HARD BORDER IN THERE, THEY'RE SAYING THAT THEY, THE DUP, WILL NOT HAVE A SAY IN WHETHER THAT STAYS THE POSITION FOR BRITAIN FOREVER.

BECAUSE WHAT'S REALLY HAPPENED HERE IS THIS WAS CALLED A BACKSTOP BECAUSE IT WAS AN INSURANCE POLICY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP ONCE WE'VE NEGOTIATED BRITAIN'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE EU, BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN NOW.

THIS IS NOT A BACKSTOP.

THIS IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FROM NOW ON.

IT'S QUITE HARD TO TAKE THAT -- YOU KNOW, AMBER RUDD, FOR INSTANCE, SHE'S ONE OF THE ONES WHO LEFT BECAUSE OF THIS HURTLING TOWARDS A NO DEAL.

SHE HAS BASICALLY SAID THAT WHAT BORIS JOHNSON'S DONE AND ACTUALLY WHAT JACOB REESE MODE ALSO SAID, NOW I REALLY TRUST IN MY BONES -- IN FACT I'M GOING TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

HE WAS THE HARD-LINER WHOSE PARTY OR WHOSE SORT OF CABAL, IF I MAY, TORPEDOS THERESA MAY.

LOOK AT WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THIS.

NOW I KNOW WHAT IS IN THE DEAL, MY TRUST HAS BEEN COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED.

IT IS A REALLY EXCITING AND POSITIVE DEAL.

IT REMOVES THE UNDEMOCRATIC BACKSTOP.

IT IS A HUGE ADVANCE FOR THE WHOLE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.

IT WILL ENSURE THAT WE ARE ONE SINGLE CUSTOMS TERRITORY.

WELL, I MEAN, AS YOU'VE SAID, IT LOOKS LIKE, ACTUALLY, IT'S MORE OF A CAPITULATION, MORE CONCESSION TO EUROPE THAN THERESA MAY'S DID.

AND AMBER RUDD, FORMER HOME SECRETARY, HAS SAID THERE IS A 'WHIFF OF SEXISM IN HOW THE CONSERVATIVES ARE BACKING BORIS MUCH MORE THAN THEY BACKED THERESA MAY.'

DO YOU AGREE?

I DO, REALLY, YES.

I MEAN, IF I WAS THERESA MAY, I'D BE REALLY HOPPING MAD AT THE MOMENT.

THESE REBELS WHO STOPPED AT GETTING THE DEAL THROUGH, INCLUDING BORIS JOHNSON AND REES-MOGG HAVE NOW ADOPTED A DEAL THAT IS WORSE BUT SHE MAY HAVE THE LAST LAUGH, BECAUSE IF HE CAN'T GET IT THROUGH PARLIAMENT EITHER WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS CONTINUING SAGA GOING ON AND ON.

SO WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, THIS CONTINUING SAGA?

BECAUSE AS YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO, THERE IS THIS DEADLINE OF THE 31st.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN NOW?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEAL.

WILL THE EU, EVEN IF THE UK WANTS A DELAY, ANOTHER EXTENSION, WILL THE EU, YOU KNOW, ALLOW THAT IF IT CAN'T GET THROUGH PARLIAMENT?

I'M PRETTY SURE THE EU WILL ALLOW IT.

THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE THIS EVENING QUITE TOUGH NOISES, SAYING THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE, VOTE FOR IT OR THERE WILL BE NO DEAL, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRY AND HELP BORIS JOHNSON GET THIS THROUGH.

THEY CAN'T FACE THE PROSPECT OF HAVING TO NEGOTIATE THIS ALL OVER AGAIN, SO THEY'RE PUSHING PRETTY HARD, BUT THEY'RE STOPPING SHORT OF SAYING THERE WILL BE NO EXTENSION.

AND IF BORIS JOHNSON IS FORCED BY THE LEGISLATION THAT'S BEEN PASSED TO GO TO BRUSSELS AND ASK FOR AN EXTENSION, THEY WILL GIVE AN EXTENSION.

I THINK ONE WAY HE COULD, OF COURSE, GET THIS DEAL THROUGH PARLIAMENT WOULD BE TO ADOPT THIS AMENDMENT THAT'S BEEN PUT ON THE TABLE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE CONFIRMATORY BALLOTS, A SECOND REFERENDUM.

IF YOU PUT THAT ON THE TABLE, YOU GET THE LABOR PARTY VOTES AND MIGHT HAVE THE NUMBERS TO GET THROUGH.

OF COURSE, THEN YOU WOULD LOSE MANY HARDLINERS ON HIS OWN SIDE, SO EVEN THEN IT WOULD BE DICEY, BUT THAT COULD BE A WAY FORWARD TO GIVE THE BRITISH PEOPLE A SAY ON THIS AND DRAW A LINE ONCE AND FOR ALL.

THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER MASSIVE CONCESSION, WOULDN'T IT?

BECAUSE THE LAST THING BORIS JOHNSON AND HIS KIND OF HARD-LINE GROUP WANT IS A SECOND REFERENDUM.

IT IS, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, HE'S MADE SO MANY CONCESSIONS NOW, INCLUDING WITH THE EU.

ONE MORE CONCESSION MAY BE HIS ONLY WAY THROUGH, AND HE, AS I SAY, IS A VERY FLEXIBLE MAN, SO MAYBE THAT'S WHAT HE'LL GO FOR.

AND HOW WILL THIS BE SPUN?

BECAUSE ONE OTHER THING PEOPLE THINK IS THAT THERE MIGHT BE AN ELECTION AND THAT BORIS JOHNSON WILL BE ABLE TO SAY, LOOK, I DID IT, I DID IT BY THE DEADLINE, I SAID DO OR DIE, I SAID I WANTED A DEAL, I DID GET A DEAL.

I GOT A BETTER DEAL THAN THERESA MAY.

WILL HE BE ABLE TO SPIN THIS LIKE THAT AND THEN WIN SOME KIND OF RESOUNDING ELECTION VICTORY?

HIS DREAM SCENARIO IS THAT PARLIAMENT ON SATURDAY VOTES FOR HIS DEAL, HE GETS IT THROUGH, HE GOES TO AN ELECTION AND HE CAN SAY, I'M THE GUY WHO GOT BREXIT.

NO ONE ELSE COULD GET IT.

I GOT IT.

THAT WOULD GIVE HIM A BIG VICTORY BECAUSE THE VOTES ON THE LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY ARE DIVIDED NOW HALF AND HALF BETWEEN THE LIBERALS ON 20% AND LABOR ON 20%. HE, WITHOUT A BREXIT PARTY TO HIS RIGHT, BECAUSE THAT WOULD COLLAPSE IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, WOULD HAVE A MASSIVE VICTORY IN FIVE YEARS IN WHICH TO IMPLEMENT ALL OF THIS.

THAT'S WHAT HE HOPES FOR.

AT THE MOMENT, HE DOESN'T HAVE THE NUMBERS TO DO THAT.

HE'S NOT GOING TO GET IT THROUGH PARLIAMENT, AND THAT MEANS IT'S MORE LIKELY WE'D END UP WITH A REFERENDUM FIRST AND ELECTION SECOND, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR HIM BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD DIE IN A DITCH IF IT WASN'T DONE BY THE 31st.

SO IT'S INTERESTING.

YOU'VE SAID SEVERAL TIMES, WE MIGHT HAVE A SECOND REFERENDUM.

I MEAN, THIS IS WHAT ALL THE REMAINERS HAVE WANTED.

THIS IS WHAT, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN PARTY LIKE ALASTAIR CAMPBELL, WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, WITH YOU IN DOWNING STREET AND KEY ADVISER TO PRIME MINISTER BLAIR.

BLAIR HIMSELF, THEY WANT A SECOND REFERENDUM.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE CURRENT LABOR LEADER HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO COMMIT TO.

HE HASN'T, BUT I THINK HE'S MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION.

AND PARTICULARLY, THIS AMENDMENT THAT'S ON THE TABLE BY TWO LABOR MPs, WHICH WILL ENJOY A GOOD DEAL OF SUPPORT -- I CAN'T BE SURE IT WILL GET THROUGH, BUT I THINK IT'S INCREASINGLY GOING THERE.

IN FACT, I REMEMBER MY OLD BOSS TONY BLAIR SAYING TO ME, YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'LL DO IS TRY EVERYTHING ELSE FIRST AND ONLY WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE HAS FAILED WILL HE END ONE A REFERENDUM.

WELL, WE'RE JUST APPROACHING THE POINT WHERE EVERYTHING ELSE HAS FAILED.

CAN I MAKE YOU SWERVE FROM BREXIT TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN, YOU KNOW, IN SYRIA?

I MEAN, YOU WERE A CHIEF ADVISER ON ALL SORTS OF ASPECTS TO PRIME MINISTER BLAIR, AND THERE WERE LOTS OF MIDDLE EAST ISSUES AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER ISSUES DURING YOUR TIME.

AND YOU WERE VERY CLOSE ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES AT THAT TIME, OF COURSE.

HOW DO YOU READ WHAT THE U.S. IS DOING WITH ITS ALLIES IN SYRIA, THE KURDS, ABANDONING THEM, THIS BASICALLY GREEN-LIGHTING THE ERDOGAN INVASION OR WHATEVER, INTERVENTION INTO NORTHERN SYRIA?

IT'S TRAGIC.

I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRAGIC.

JIM JEFFREY, AMBASSADOR OF THE U.S., HAD NEGOTIATED A VERY GOOD DEAL WITH THE TURKS ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH JOINT PATROLS BY THE U.S. AND THE TURKS.

ALL OF THAT WAS READY TO PLAY OUT.

IT WAS ALL KILLED BY ONE PHONE CALL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

IT TURNED THE WHOLE THING ON ITS HEAD.

AND NOW YOU HAVE PRESIDENT ERDOGAN, HIS FORCES GOING INTO THIS AREA AND DEATH AND DESTRUCTION GOING WITH IT.

AND IT WON'T BE A SHORT-TERM THING, BECAUSE ONCE THEY'RE IN PLACE, THEY WILL BE TARGETS FOR THESE GUERRILLAS AND THESE GUERRILLAS WILL BE ATTACKING THEM.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE THIS DREW A LINE UNDER IT AND SETTLED IT.

I FEAR THIS JUST MEANS THE SUFFERING IN SYRIA GOES ON AND ON, ALL BECAUSE OF A CALL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

SEEMS A VERY STRANGE WAY TO DO FOREIGN POLICY.

THEY'RE ABOUT TO TALK.

VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND SECRETARY OF STATE POMPEO.

AFTER THEIR MEETING WITH ERDOGAN.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN.

TODAY THE UNITED STATES AND TURKEY HAVE AGREED TO A CEASE-FIRE IN SYRIA.

TURKISH SIDE WILL PAUSE OPERATION PEACE SPRING IN ORDER TO ALLOW FOR THE WITHDRAWAL OF YP G-FORCES FROM THE SAFE ZONE FOR 120 HOURS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT AND WHAT WILL BE THE BIGGER OUTCOME?

WELL, IT SOUNDS LIKE VERY GOOD NEWS FOR PRESIDENT IERDOGA.

THEY HAVE TO RUN, TURN TAIL AND LEAVE THEIR TERRITORY.

IT SOUNDS A PRETTY ONE-SIDED AGREEMENT.

IF I WERE THE KURDS I'D BE EVEN MORE UPSET ABOUT THIS THAN WHAT'S HAPPENED SO FAR.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO CARRY ON FIGHTING.

IT REALLY BEGS BELIEF, THIS.

OUR FIRST GUEST, FORMER RUSSIAN PRIME MINISTER WAS SAYING ALL OF THIS IS A GIFT TO PRESIDENT PUTIN.

IS THIS NOW SORT OF PUTIN IN CHARGE OF THAT CRITICAL AREA, AND NOT TO MENTION SAUDIASSAD BN CHARGE OF HIS WHOLE COUNTRY.

I THINK THIS IS GOOD NEWS FOR PUTIN, BUT I THINK IT'S FAIRLY SHORT-TERM GOOD NEWS, FOR HIM AND HIS PROFILE RATHER THAN RUSSIA.

RUSSIA DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE A SUPERPOWER IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IN THE END THERE WILL BE AN AMERICAN LEADER WHO REASSERTS AMERICAN LEADERSHIP IN THE REGION.

IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF HOW LONG WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THAT.

THE REAL IMPACT OF THIS IS NO ALLY CAN RELY ON THE UNITED STATES IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO IT'S A LOSS FOR THE UNITED STATES, A LOSS FOR THE WORLD RATHER THAN A LONG-TERM GAIN FOR RUSSIA.

JONATHAN POWELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

> WELL, ALL OF THIS WEEK, ON SLIGHTLY BETTER NEWS, THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF CAMBRIDGE ARE IN PAKISTAN AS PART OF AN INITIAL TOUR OF THAT COUNTRY.

THE ROYAL COUPLE HAVE BEEN WOWING CROWDS WITH THEIR TRADITIONAL DRESS AS THEY ATTEND RECEPTIONS AND VISITS HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS TO HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION, ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG GIRLS.

PAKISTAN IS MAKING PROGRESS ON EDUCATION, BUT IT'S A COUNTRY FACING SERIOUS CHALLENGES AND OUR NEXT GUEST KNOWS THAT ALL TOO WELL.

GULALAI ISMAIL HAS BEEN AN ADVOCATE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS SINCE SHE WAS 16 YEARS OLD.

FOR MANY YEARS NOW SHE'S BEEN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST ABUSES, ESPECIALLY TOWARD WOMEN AND GIRLS.

LAST YEAR SHE BEGAN TO ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS OF ALLEGED SEXUAL ABUSE BY THE COUNTRY'S AERMY AN FOR THAT SHE'S PAID A HEAVY PRICE.

AS SHE EXPLAINED TO OUR MICHEL MARTIN, SHE FELT SHE HAD TO PLEA HER HOMELAND.

GULALAI ISMAIL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

PLEASURE.

YOU'VE SAID A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT IN INTERVIEWS YOU DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE PAKISTAN.

I MEAN, THAT WAS NOT YOUR GOAL, THAT WAS NOT YOUR INTENTION.

ONE OF THE MANY REASONS THAT PEOPLE BECAME CONCERNED IS THAT A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO YOU DISAPPEARED AND NO ONE KNEW WHERE YOU WERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, HERE YOU ARE IN NEW YORK.

YOU'VE ASKED FOR POLITICAL ASYLUM.

WHAT HAPPENED THAT CAUSED YOU TO FEEL YOU HAD TO LEAVE?

SO, I HAD BEEN WORKING ON HUMAN RIGHTS FOR PAST 17 YEARS.

I STARTED WITH WORKING ON YOUNG WOMEN RIGHTS, CHAMPIONING THE CAUSE FOR GIRLS' EDUCATION, POLITICAL PARTICIPATION OF YOUNG WOMEN.

I WAS TRAINING YOUNG WOMEN TO TAKE ACTIVE PART IN ELECTIONS.

I WAS TRAINING YOUNG WOMEN TO BE ELECTION MONITORS AND I'M SO PROUD TO SAY THAT IN 2015 WHEN LOCAL ELECTIONS WERE HAPPENING, TEN YOUNG WOMEN WHO WERE TRAINED BY OUR ORGANIZATION, THEY WERE RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICES.

SO THAT WAS THE KIND OF WORK THAT I WAS DOING.

IN 2009, IF -- I THINK THE WORLD WILL REMEMBER HOW MILITANCY BECAME A BIG PHENOMENON, RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM BECAME A BIG PHENOMENON IN PAKISTAN AND SOME AREAS OF PAKISTAN WERE TAKEN CONTROL BY TALIBAN AND THEY WERE RECRUITING PEOPLE IN MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS.

THAT WAS A POINT IN MY LIFE WHERE I DECIDED I NEED TO, YOU KNOW, WORK WITH YOUNG PEOPLE TO PRE PREVENT THEM FROM BEING RECRUIT IN MILITANT ORGANIZATIONS.

THEY DESERVE A HAPPY LIFE.

SO WE STARTED A YOUTH NETWORK.

SO YOU'RE EXPANDING YOUR WORK BEYOND YOUR ORIGINAL AND SPECIFIC FOCUS ON YOUNG WOMEN AND GIRLS.

DID YOU FEEL AT THE TIME SAFE, THOUGH -- EVEN THOUGH WHAT YOU WERE DOING WAS NOT UNIVERSALLY APPRECIATED OR APPLAUDED OR EVEN TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

WHEN WE WERE WORKING, WE WERE HAVING AN IMPACT BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY, THEY THOUGHT, OH, THEY ARE JUST YOUNG VICTIM WOMEN WHO ARE WESTERNIZED.

AS YOUNG WOMAN WE THOUGHT WE WOULD NEVER BE TARGETED BUT IT CHANGED IN 2013 WHEN FOR THE FIRST TIME OUR HOUSE WAS ATTACKED BY UNKNOWN GUNMEN.

THEY CAME AT OUR DOOR, KNOCKING AT OUR DOOR, THREATENING MY FAMILY THAT IF WE DIDN'T STOP WORKING, IF WE DIDN'T STOP WESTERNIZING OUR SOCIETY THAT WE SHALL REMAIN READ FOR CONSEQUENCES.

THAT WAS A TIME I KNEW, OH, OUR WORK IS ACTUALLY HAVING A HUGE IMPACT ON OUR SOCIETY AND THAT IS WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE FEELING SO THREATENED THAT THEY WANT TO SILENCE US AT ANY COST.

DID YOU HAVE A SENSE AT THE TIME OF WHO WAS OPPOSING YOU?

THE ATTACKS WERE ALWAYS BY UNKNOWN.

YOU KNOW, NO ONE EVER TOOK RESPONSIBILITY SO IT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT TO FIGURE OUT THAT WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKING US?

WHO ARE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT LIKE OUR WORK?

BUT THEN WE ALSO COME FROM A COUNTRY WHEN STATED AGAINST YOU, ESPECIALLY THE SECURITY DEFENSES OF THE COUNTRY DO NOT LIKE YOUR WORK, THEN YOU ARE OFTEN ATTACKED THROUGH UNKNOWN PEOPLE.

SO WE KNEW THAT WHEN UNKNOWN PEOPLE ATTACK YOU WITHOUT ANYONE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT THEN THE CHANCES ARE THAT THE STATE SECURITY AGENCIES ARE BEHIND THE ATTACKS.

WHAT EXACTLY DID THEY THINK YOU WERE DOING THAT THEY WANTED YOU TO STOP?

IN MY CASE IT STARTED WITH A BLASPHEMY CASE ONLINE.

I WAS ACCUSED OF BLASPHEMY FOR BEING A WOMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST.

WHICH IS A CRIME IN PAKISTAN, RIGHT?

BLASPHEMY IS A CRIME, IS IT NOT?

BLASPHEMY IS A CRIME AND YOU CAN BE PUNISHED WITH DEATH SENTENCE.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, THE LAW WILL -- THE COURTS CAN GIVE YOU DEATH SENTENCE, BUT ALSO ONCE YOU'RE ACCUSED OF BLASPHEMY, PEOPLE CAN KILL YOU IN MOVE LYNCHING.

ONE DAY I WOKE UP, I WAS CHECKING MY SOCIAL MEDIA AND I SAW A VIDEO OUT THERE.

THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN WHO SAID MY WORK ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS IS ILL RELIGIOUS, IMMORAL, ANTI-ISLAM, I'M A TUMOR TO SOCIETY.

I NEED TO BE FINISHED.

HE THREATENED ME THAT HE WILL KILL ME AND HE ALSO ASKED OTHER PEOPLE TO KILL ME.

THAT CAMPAIGN WAS ON THE INTERNET FOR THREE MONTHS.

THERE WAS SO MUCH HATE AGAINST ME ON INTERNET.

PEOPLE WERE INCITING VIOLENCE.

SOME WOULD GIVE ME DEATH THREATS.

SOME WOULD GIVE ME RAPE THREATS.

SOME WOULD GIVE ME MOB LYNCHING THREATS.

PROTESTS WOULD START ON ME IN MY OWN CITY.

PEOPLE WOULD COME UP AND ASK TO BAN ME BECAUSE I'M ANTI-ISLAM, ANTI-CULTURE AND ANTI-STATE.

HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THAT?

AT THAT TIME I DID NOT WANT -- I WANTED TO STAND ON MY GROUND, SO I DECIDED THAT I WILL USE STATE TO GET PROTECTION OF MYSELF.

SO I WENT TO POLICE.

YOU KNOW, AT THAT TIME POLICE TOOK MY COMPLAINT SERIOUSLY.

THE VIDEO WAS TAKEN OFF THE INTERNET BECAUSE THE VIDEO WAS VERY DANGEROUS AND A YOUNG MAN WHO WAS LEADING THE CAMPAIGN, HIS BAIL WAS CANCELLED AND HE WAS SENT TO JAIL FOR ONE WEEK, FOR AROUND ONE WEEK.

SO THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SET A PRECEDENT IN THE COUNTRY THAT, NO, YOU CANNOT TALENT WOMEN WHEN THEY SPEAK OUT FOR THEMSELVES, WHEN THEY SPEAK OUT FOR THEIR RIGHTS, AND IF YOU DO, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES FOR IT.

HAVING PREVAILED IN THAT CASE, WHAT MADE YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO LEAVE NOW?

AT THAT TIME, A MOVEMENT EMERGED IN OUR REGION.

IT JUST -- IT WAS A COINCIDENCE THAT RIGHT AT THAT TIME A MOVEMENT EMERGED AGAINST THE STATE ENFORCED TERRORISM.

THE MOVEMENT WAS SPARKED BY EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLING OF A YOUNG MAN.

HE WAS LABELLED AS TERRORIST BY POLICE AND HE WAS KILLED IN A FAKE POLICE ENCOUNTER.

BECAUSE OF THAT INCIDENT, COUNTRYWIDE PROTESTS SPARKED AND THOSE PROTESTS, THEY LED INTO A LONG MARCH.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, THEY CAME TO ISLAMABAD, MOST OF THEM WERE YOUNG PEOPLE FROM PAKISTAN.

MOST OF THEM WERE FROM A TRIBAL AREA OF PAKISTAN WHICH HAS BEEN THE HUB OF TERRORISM FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

THE STATE OF PAKISTAN HAS BEEN USING IT TO HARBOR ITS PROXIES AND USE THOSE TALIBAN MILITANT ORGANIZATIONS AS PROXIES.

AND THEN AFTER 9/11 WHEN THERE WAS A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE TO -- ON PAKISTAN TO BECOME A PARTNER ON WAR AGAINST TERRORISM AND PAKISTAN WAS FACING INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE.

SO MILITARY COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIONS WERE DONE IN THESE TRIBAL AREAS.

HOWEVER, MOST OF THE LEADERS OF THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, THEY WERE GIVEN SAFE EXIT ALREADY.

IN THE COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIONS LIKE, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TARGETED WERE COMMON, INNOCENT PEOPLE.

THEIR HOMES WERE DESTROYED.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE GOT DISPLACED.

YOUR ALLEGATION IS WHAT, THAT THEY ARE USING THE TRIBAL AREAS AS A COVER FOR THEIR FAILURE TO CONTROL THESE TERRORIST GROUPS?

SO WHAT IS YOUR THEORY OF THE CASE OF THE PAKISTANI SECURITY FORCES?

OUR THEORY IS THAT PAKISTAN MILITARY HAS BEEN FACILITATING TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.

THEY HAD BEEN PROMOTING AND PROTECTING TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS SO THAT THEY CAN BE USED.

THEY HAD NOT JUST TURNED BLIND EYE, THEY ARE PARTNER IN THE CRIME.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT, AS PART OF THE MOVEMENT, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR US IS THAT THE MILITARY SHALL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED IN THE REGIONS.

YOU KNOW, THE TRIBAL REGIONS OF PAKISTAN THEY WERE KEPT AS A BLACK HOLE.

THE PAKISTAN CONSTITUTION DID NOT APPLY OVER THERE, PAKISTANI LAWS DID NOT APPLY OVER THERE.

THERE WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF -- THEY WERE RULED, THEY WERE GOVERNED BY DIDN'T KIND OF LAWS.

PEOPLE DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO FREE AND FAIR TRAVEL.

MEDIA WAS NOT ALLOWED.

CIVIL SOCIETY WAS NOT ALLOWED TO MONITOR THE CONFLICT.

FOR A LONG TIME, FOR DECADES, THE WORLD WAS NOT KNOWING WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE TRIBAL AREAS, BUT THEN AFTER THIS MOVEMENT EMERGED, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER AND THEY ARE ASKING FOR JUSTICE.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR PUTTING AN END TO WAR ECONOMY.

THE BASIC PROBLEM IN THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW, IN PAKISTAN IS THAT OUR ECONOMY IS WAR ECONOMY.

IT IS FUELED BY WAR.

WE ARE DEPENDING ON AID FROM THE U.S. IN THE COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIONS, AND WE WILL KEEP ON RECEIVING AID ON COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIONS ONLY IF THERE IS A PROBLEM.

SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THE PEOPLE IN THIS AREA HAVE ESSENTIALLY BEEN HELD HOSTAGE?

YEAH.

BOTH BY PAKISTANI MILITARY FORCES, SECURITY FORCES AND ALSO BY TERRORISTS AND THAT THEY'RE BASICALLY CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE AND YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT YOU HAVE NOW BEEN TARGETED BECAUSE YOU'RE SPEAKING UP FOR THEM ?

YES.

YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SO LONG, 17 YEARS.

ALL THIS TIME YOU CERTAINLY LEFT THE COUNTRY TO MEET WITH OTHER ACTIVISTS AND SIGNIFICANT FIGURES AROUND THE WORLD, BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU FELT THAT YOU HAD TO FLEE FOR YOUR LIFE.

YEAH.

WHY IS THAT?

IT WAS NOVEMBER 2018 WHEN THE INTELLIGENCE OF PAKISTAN, THEY APPROACHED ME.

THEY CALLED ME FOR A MEETING.

THEY SAID, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO SETTLE THE MATTER WITH YOU SO WE WANT TO HAVE A MEETING WITH YOU.

THEY CALLED ME TO THEIR DISTRICT HEADQUARTER AND WHEN I WENT THERE --

YOU ACTUALLY DID GO?

I ACTUALLY DID GO.

MY FATHER DID NOT WANT ME TO GO, BUT I WANTED TO GO AND SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

MY FATHER WAS JUST AFRAID THEY WOULD TAKE ME FROM THERE AND MAKE ME A MISSING PERSON, SO HE WENT WITH ME THERE.

WHEN I WENT TO THE MEETING I DID ASK THEM, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE COMING AND PARTICIPATING IN THE PROTESTS.

I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE, BUT WHY ARE YOU TARGETING ME?

AND THEY TOLD ME BECAUSE YOU ARE -- BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST.

YOU ARE PART OF THE MOVEMENT.

THE MOVEMENT IS SEEN AS A CREDIBLE MOVEMENT INTERNATIONALLY BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AND THAT IS WHY WE DO NOT WANT YOU TO BE PART OF THE MOVEMENT.

AND WHAT DID THEY SAY?

DID THEY SPECIFICALLY TELL YOU TO STOP TALKING -- DID THEY MAKE DEMANDS OF YOU?

OH, YEAH, THEY TOLD MY FATHER IF YOU DO NOT MAKE SURE THAT SHE'S SILENT.

THEY TOLD YOU TO YOUR FACE?

THEY TOLD IT ON THE FACE OF MY FATHER THAT WE WILL KILL HER FOR SHE DOES NOT STOP SUPPORTING THE MOVEMENT.

IF YOU DO NOT CONTROL HER.

IF SHE'S NOT SILENCED ONWARD, WE WILL KILL HER.

IT'S JUST SO EASY FOR HER TO PROMOTE THE NARRATIVE THAT SHE HAS BEEN KILLED BY THE MOVEMENT HIMSELF BECAUSE MOVEMENTS NEED MARTYRS AND SHE WILL BECOME THE FIRST MARTYR OF THE MOVEMENT.

THEY SAID IT ON THE FACE OF MY FATHER THAT WE WILL KILL HER AND WHAT NEXT.

TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU CAN WITHOUT COMPROMISING THE SAFETY OF OTHERS, HOW DID YOU GET OUT?

MY PICTURES WERE PASTED ON ALL THE BORDERS OF PAKISTAN UNDER THE MOST WANTED LIST.

SO MY PICTURES WERE EVERYWHERE.

I HEARD FROM DIFFERENT FRIENDS THAT THEY HAVE DEPLOYED PAKISTA PAKISTAN SECURITY FORCES HAVE DEPLOYED SPECIAL PEOPLE ON THE BORDERS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR ME SO THAT I CANNOT LEAVE PAKISTAN.

HOWEVER, I HAD A SMALL SECURITY NET.

MY FRIENDS WENT OUT AND THEY WENT TO ALL BORDERS OF PAKISTAN.

THEY DID RESEARCH ON EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS -- ON EVERY POSSIBLE SAFEST MEANS TO GET OUT OF PAKISTAN.

THEY FOUND A WAY FOR ME.

WHAT ABOUT HERE?

I MEAN, JUST YOU'RE IN NEW YORK AT THE MOMENT.

YOU DO HAVE FAMILY HERE.

DO YOU FEEL SAFE HERE?

I MEAN, THERE ARE -- THERE'S A LARGE PAKISTANI COMMUNITY HERE.

I MEAN, DO YOU FEEL THAT THE REACH OF THE SECURITY FORCES EXTENDS THIS FAR OR DO YOU FEEL THAT THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES IS SUFFICIENT?

I CAME TO THE U.S. WITH THE VISION OF GETTING PROTECTION.

I -- THE PROTECTION WHICH I COULD NOT GET IN MY OWN COUNTRY, THE COUNTRY WHERE I ALWAYS WANTED TO LIVE, THE COUNTRY WHICH I NEVER WANTED TO LEAVE, BUT I WAS MADE TO FEEL SO UNSAFE THAT I COULDN'T LIVE THERE ANYMORE.

I WAS -- ACTUALLY, I WOULD NOT SAY THAT I LEFT PAKISTAN.

I WAS FORCED TO LEAVE PAKISTAN.

THAT WAS NOT MY CHOICE.

THAT WAS -- THAT THE STATE COMPELLED ME TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

NOW I AM HERE SEEKING PROTECTION AND I HOPE THAT THIS IS A FREE SOCIETY.

I CAN BE -- I CAN BE THE -- I BELIEVE THAT THE STATE HERE WILL PROTECT ME.

HOWEVER, SAFETY BEING -- FEELING SAFE IS NOT A MAGIC BULLET.

AND ON THE FEW DAYS AGO THERE WAS A PROTEST IN FRONT OF UNITED NATIONS.

SOME OF MY FRIENDS WERE FROM THE MOVEMENT THEY WERE HOLDING A PROTEST WITH PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN, IMRAN KAHN, WAS SPEAKING AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

ON THAT DAY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WERE PROTESTING IN FRONT OF THE U.N. BECAUSE OF THE KASHMIR ISSUE.

AND MANY OF THE PROTESTERS WERE ALSO PRO-PAKISTANI, PRO-ISI PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE PROTEST.

OUR PROTEST WHICH WAS AGAINST STATE-ENFORCED TERRORISM IN PAKISTAN AND FOR PEACE IN PAKISTAN, WE WERE A SMALL GROUP OF 25 PEOPLE.

AND WHEN THESE PRO-ISI PAKISTANI PEOPLE CAME TO KNOW THAT I WAS ALSO THERE IN THE PROTEST, HUNDREDS OF THEM CAME DOWN TO OUR PROTEST AND THEY STARTED SHOUTING AT ME THAT I'M A TRAITOR, THAT I'M A TRAITOR, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE -- THEY WERE GIVING VERY VULGAR SIGNS AS IF THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, HARASSING ME.

YEAH.

AND GIVING ME RAPE THREATS.

SO THEIR BODY LANGUAGE WAS VERY --

THAT HAD TO HAVE BEEN FRIGHTENING.

YOU KNOW, I JUST -- YOU KNOW, I FELT SO SAD WHEN I LOOKED AT THEM BECAUSE I WAS, LIKE, LOOK, HERE I AM, SOMEONE WHO JUST LEFT EVERYTHING IN THE STRUGGLE OF SURVIVAL, WHO LEFT HER FAMILY, WHO LEFT HER COUNTRY AND CAME HERE SO THAT SHE CAN SURVIVE, SHE CAN SPEAK OUT, AND WE ARE JUST A SMALL GROUP OF 25 PEOPLE, BUT YOU WILL NOT EVEN LET ME SPEAK HERE?

SO IF I SPEAK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG OF IMPACT I CAN HAVE IF I SPEAK IN FRONT OF U.N. IN A SMALL PROTEST.

LIKE, IT WAS A SMALL VOICE, BUT THEY WERE NOT EVEN TOLERANT TO A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE, TO OUR VOICE.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO GAIN BY SPEAKING OUT HERE?

I AM HOPING THAT BY BEING HERE I AM DEFYING THE PAKISTAN STATE'S AIM OF SILENCING ME.

MY PURPOSE OF BEING HERE IS TO KEEP ON RAISING VOICE ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED IN THE PERSON TOMORROW REGION BY PAKISTAN MILITARY.

BY SPEAKING OUT, I AM HOPING THAT I WILL BE ABLE TO GET JUSTICE FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VICTIMS OF FORCED DISAPPEARANCES, WHO ARE VICTIMS OF EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS.

BY COMING HERE AND SPOKING OUT, I HOPE TO ACHIEVE PEACE FOR MY PEOPLE.

I HOPE TO ACHIEVE PEACE IN PAKISTAN.

ALSO IN THE PAST FOUR MONTHS, I HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT WHEN YOU ARE A WOMAN PEACE BUILDER AND YOU ARE AT RISK BY THE STATE -- BY YOUR OWN STATE, THERE IS SO LITTLE SUPPORT FOR YOU OUT THERE.

I HAD MY SISTER IN THE U.S. AND SHE WAS SPEAKING OUT AND SHE WAS MAKING SURE THAT MY CASE IS NOT FORGOTTEN.

THAT PEOPLE ARE LISTENING.

PEOPLE ARE AWARE THAT THERE IS A PEACE ACTIVIST WHO IS IN DANGER, WHOSE LIFE IS IN DANGER AND SHE NEEDS TO BE RESCUED, BUT I AM JUST ONE LUCKY PERSON WHO HAD A SISTER AND WHO HAD INTERNATIONAL -- SUPPORT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

SOME PEACE ORGANIZATIONS, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS WHO KEPT ON RAISING VOICE FOR ME.

NOT EVERY WOMAN PEACE BUILDER, NOT EVERY HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDER IS THAT LUCKY.

AND BY COMING HERE I WANT TO BE VOICE OF THOSE HUMAN RIGHT DEFENDERS WHOSE LIFE ARE AT RISK IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND THERE IS NO ONE TO SPEAK OUT FOR THEM.

I UNDERSTAND THAT AS A CITIZEN OF PAKISTAN YOU DON'T FEEL CALLED TO CRITICIZE THE POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT I DO WANT TO ASK IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE CURRENT POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH HAS BECOME I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE WORD IS HOSTILE, IN SOME QUARTERS IT IS MORE HOSTILE TO PEOPLE SEEKING POLITICAL ASYLUM.

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU?

YOU KNOW, I -- I KNOW THAT THE WORLD IS BECOMING UNFRIENDLY TO IMMIGRATION.

NOW COUNTRIES DO NOT WANT PEOPLE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

EVEN WHEN THEY'RE AT RISK, EVEN WHEN THEIR LIFE IS AT RISK THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, NOT WELCOMED.

SO IT MAYBE YOU FEEL LIKE A STATELESS PERSON.

IT MAKES YOU FEEL AS IF YOU ARE BEING PERSECUTED BY YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

THEN YOU HAVE NOWHERE TO GO.

SO YOU REMAIN IN A STATE OF LIMBO.

IT IS A VERY PAINFUL SITUATION WHEN YOU'RE NOT SURE WHERE TO LOOK FORWARD.

YOU KNOW, TO WHOM YOU CAN LOOK FORWARD TO, TO WHOM YOU CAN LOOK UP TO FOR PROTECTION.

SO IT IS A --

IT'S DIFFICULT.

IT'S A VERY -- IT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION.

SO BEFORE I LET YOU GO, THOUGH, IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOU HOPE RIGHT NOW?

WHEN I LOOK AT THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY AND I LOOK AT THE COLLECTIVE POWER OF YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY ARE COMING TOGETHER FOR PEACE.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN SOMETHING THAT BEAUTIFUL.

WHEN I AM -- I WILL BE STANDING BACK HOME -- I WOULD BE STANDING IN A PROTEST AND THERE WOULD BE 50,000 PEOPLE, 70,000 PEOPLE TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE ASKING FOR PEACE.

THAT GIVES ME HOPE.

I THINK THE COLLECTIVE POWER OF YOUNG PEOPLE TO ASK FOR PEACE IS THE MOST POWERFUL THING IN THE WORLD.

GULALAI ISMAIL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

THANK YOU.

INDEED YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY HAVE THE HOPES OF THE WORLD ON THEIR SHOULDERS ACROSS MANY DIFFERENT FRONTS.

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