Journalist Who Fled Russia Discusses Putin’s War

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: And now, we get back to Russia’s war in Ukraine but with a very different view from Ambassador Kelin earlier in the program, as you heard. Russian journalist, Yevgenia Albats, editor in chief of the “Political Weekly” the new times fled Moscow in August after a court found her guilty of, “Spreading false information”. Another casualty of the Kremlin’s ongoing crackdown on freedom of expression and independent media in the country. And Albats tells Michel Martin why she will never stop fighting for the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Yevgenia Albats, thank you so much for talking with us once again. We are so glad to see you.

YEVGENIA ALBATS, RUSSIAN INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Thank you very much for having me.

MARTIN: And I think that many people may remember that you recently left Russia at the advice of your lawyers and even some friends who are already imprisoned. I think, if people remember our previous conversation, you’ve been very reluctant to leave Russia. You were one of the last remaining independent journalists in Russia. What was the final straw that caused you to leave?

ALBATS: There were several straws. We lost four cases, so-called, administrative charges. Basically, I was accused of intentional spread of disinformation about the Russian army. Why? Because we wrote that Russian army bombed cities in Ukraine, Kharkiv, Luhansk, Odessa. So, that was considered by the judge as intentional spread of false information about the Russian army. And then after that, after these four charges and, you know, about $14,000 in fines, I was pronounced — well, I was pronounced (INAUDIBLE). After that, it became clear that the next left was a criminal charge. Criminal charge meaning you get in jail. So, therefore, you know, my lawyers and specially my friends who are in jail, they said it was ridiculous, you know. I wouldn’t be able to walk out of jail, so there is no point of going to jail. Yes, I was quite reluctant, as you said, to leave Russia because obviously it’s not the same to write about Russia sitting in the safety environment of the United States. However, I guess, that’s the only choice that was left, either go to jail or to leave. So, I left.

MARTIN: How have you been since you arrived in the United States? What are some of the things that have gone through your mind?

ALBATS: I watched what’s happening in Ukraine. I see that Russian army at the order of Putin, bombs civilian infrastructure of Ukrainian cities. And that’s what makes me terrified because winter is coming, it means that millions and millions of people in Ukrainian cities are going — not to have no heat, no water, no (INAUDIBLE), scarce electricity of any. So, it is going to be a disaster. I also see that there is a quite a battle going on here in the United States whether to keep supporting Ukraine or not to support Ukraine. But I plan to — Putin’s enablers here in the United States. And I’m just amazed how easily it is for Putin to engage some of the lobbyists. And even, you know, the one — some of them are very rich, very powerful like Elon Musk. They don’t know a thing about what’s going on there. But, of course, you know, they have their own understanding and judgment on what’s going on there. And they suggest, you know, these land for peace deal. Meaning that Ukraine should agree for — on annexation of its four territories as Putin annexed — several weeks ago, Putin annexed four territories of Ukraine. It’s involved 18 percent of the territory of the entire country. And so, the idea is that Ukraine and its President Zelenskyy should agree on that in exchange for peace. The trick is that those who suggest this deal which they do not understand that Putin is not going to stop. Putin needs a break. Putin needs a break because he’s lacking — he’s out of cannon fodder, he’s out of ammunition. He is out of weapons. So, he needs a break. So, you know, he thinks that he will be able to regroup his army to higher — to draft more Russian male. To buy more Iranian built drones or Norther Korean artillery and et cetera. Regroup and then start the offense once again.

MARTIN: It has been widely reported how many Russian men are fleeing the country rather than being drafted. And so, I think many of us have interpreted that as them finding out or knowing, at some level, that this war is not going well for Russia. And that the stated goals are false and that are being lied to. Do you understand it that way as well that somehow the truth is getting, at least to some people, does that seem right to you?

ALBATS: Of course, Michel. You know, basically, Russians are voting with their feet. They were, you know, whether they were in favor of the war or against the war, but when they came to the serving and, you know, being hold and killing Ukrainians, they just chose to leave the country. We don’t know the exact numbers but it’s somewhere close to one million people who left Russia since the war starting. And we’re talking predominantly about young people in their 20s to their 40s. People of, you know, (INAUDIBLE), creative people, creative professionals, you know. These — if you allow me to say it so, creme dela creme of the Russian society. These are, you know, people who are capable to produce their (INAUDIBLE). And now, you know, they left Russia. And they’re trying to find jobs in different countries in Kazakhstan, in Georgia, some in Europe, very few in the United States, of course, and then such.

MARTIN: So, this week marks eight months since Russia invaded Ukraine. How would you describe where we are in this content?

ALBATS: I think we are at the critical junction right now. Because, obviously, there is a war fatigue. And people in the west, they start asking themselves questions, why should we pay for this war. And you know that in Europe, electric bills went three-fold up. In the United States inflation and gas prices and those kinds of stuff. So, people are getting tired of that. And you can hear — by the way, here in the United States, you can hear that Ukraine’s not the west. Ukraine is not part of NATO. Ukraine is not part of the European Union. Therefore, there is no need to protect, to help Ukraine anymore. Yes, we keep giving them some weapons but basically, you know, we shouldn’t, you know, go into proxy war with Putin. And I think it is a very shortsighted view. So, I think that in order to avoid much bigger war, the west should do its best in order to help Ukrainians virtually fighting with their bodies. And west should provide Ukrainians more weapons to fight this war. And trust me, Michel, I’m reluctant to say that because there is army of my country. I’m a citizen of the Russian Federation, I was a tax-payer in the Russian Federation. And this is my army, and my soldiers, and my officers who are dying there in Ukraine. And, you know, they are part of this crime. This unimaginable crime in the 21st century, you know, they involved in killing civilians. I feel awful and ashamed about that. And so, it’s — it gives me no pleasure to say give more weapons to Ukrainians. But I do say this because I do understand that Putin is extremely dangerous. It’s no longer about my fellow citizens because my fellow citizens don’t have a say. They cannot stop the war because, you know, they will be imprisoned right away. You know, whoever is going out on the streets in Moscow or in any other city across the Russian Federation gets arrested right away. You can get out with a blank piece of paper and you are going to get arrested. And receive — either be fined or even, you know, sometime in jail. And here we are again and again and again. And children are killed, civilians are killed. Putin’s bombing cities each day he’s bombing cities. He’s destroying power plants. 30 percent of all power plants in Ukraine are destroyed. Already destroyed, you know, and nothing can be done to stop it, really.

MARTIN: Do you really believe that that nothing can be done to stop it? What should the west —

ALBATS: I don’t see because, you know, as you said, we’re already eight months into the war. And war is keep going and going and going. And there is no end of this war in sight.

MARTIN: So, I wanted to ask you about something. Over the past few days, the Russian minister of defense has called several, several NATO defense ministers, including the U.S. defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, claiming that Ukraine was planning on detonating a dirty bomb in Russia. Ukraine obviously denies this. What do you think is going on here?

ALBATS: I think it’s totally ridiculous. I think they’re playing games. Right now, we see the beginning of battle for Kherson. It’s the only city that Russian army managed to occupy during this nine — eight months. So, there is a big concern in Russia and in Ukraine that Putin is going to use tactical nuclear weapons in Kherson in order to prevent Ukrainian forces from getting this city back. I don’t believe it, to be honest with you.

MARTIN: You don’t.

ALBATS: I don’t think that — no. Putin is not suicidal. He’s very pragmatic. He loves life. Look at him, you know, this guy wants to live. It’s obvious. He’s not going — ready to die. And he and his entourage, they were busy robbing the country and stay budget for 22 straight years. They created immense wealth. I don’t believe that they’re ready to turn all these wealth and their own lives and the lives of their close ones into the nuclear waste, no. I don’t believe for a second. Putin is keeping the world a hostage to — and, you know, he’s using nuclear weapons as a blackmail. And that’s exactly what he’ll do. And unfortunately, you know, Americans are so susceptible to that. I don’t want to say all Americans. I’m sorry. You know, I’m exaggerating, of course. But there are plenty, as I said, you know, Putin is an ableist, including the wealth of a guy on this — in this country, Elon Musk who are — they’re so frightened and — by Putin’s nuclear blackmail. That they’re ready to do whatever he — Putin asks them to do.

MARTIN: Yevgenia, you mentioned Elon Musk. So, let’s talk about him for a minute. Earlier this month, he asked his 100 million Twitter followers to vote on a plan that looked like it had been drawn up by the Kremlin. I mean, essentially suggesting that Ukraine accept Russian sovereignty over Crimea. And when Ukraine’s President Zelenskyy responded very forcefully to this, Musk reassured him in another tweet saying that he supports Ukraine but he, “Fears massive escalation”. How do you understand this? What do you think is going on here?

ALBATS: Michel, I know quite a few super rich and many of them are decent people. But unfortunately, some of them and Elon Musk is a great example of that they believe that because they’re genius businessman, they’re also, you know, genius politicians. And unfortunately, they are not. Elon Musk know — doesn’t know everything about my part of the world. But he believes that he can give advice what Zelenskyy, president of Ukraine, should do and what he shouldn’t do. I think that Ukrainians are very, very grateful to Elon Musk for Starlink. If not for Elon Musk’s Starlink, Ukrainians wouldn’t have internet which is crucial for their success on the battlefield. So, let’s give him a credit. Elon Musk is a genius businessman and he belong to support Ukraine. However, he was played out by Putin, it’s clear. Obviously, he was given this argument that the reason why Ukraine should agree on annex — annexation of 18 percent of its territory because, you know, Kherson region supplies water to Crimea Peninsula. And Crimea Peninsula, according to Mr. Musk is Russian. I can tell you, you know, I have my own personal story with Crimea. You know, for my — you know, one of the best days of my life were there in Crimea, you know, on the beach, you know, with my husband, my husband ashes are buried there. I cannot go to Crimea since 2014. And now Elon Musk tells me that, oh, you know, Crimea belongs to Russia. No. Unfortunately, no. It doesn’t belong to us. But, you know, it was part of the Ukrainian territory. Putin annexed this territory. And there’s no reason in the 21st century to pretend that we agree with the robbery. I cannot imagine that this kind of argument can exist in the 21st century. We lived through this, you know. Europe lived through all these awful annexation and wars. And now, you know, somebody who is very — is great in making money says, oh, you know, Crimea belongs to Russia. You know, it should go to — it should stay with Russians, you know. Putin is OK. Putin is OK that he annexed territory. Unbelievable.

MARTIN: What is your message to people who are listening to our conversation right now? Particularly people in the west who, as you said, are becoming sort of fatigued there — with the cost of the war. With the, sort of, the economic fallout of the war and the effect on their own lives. Is there something you would want them to think about?

ALBATS: I would say don’t be a naive and don’t be stupid. We are, as humankind, you know, as — you know, good people, we are supposed to know better. We have such a huge experience. I mean, our civilization went through awful wars of the 20th century. So, don’t be naive. Don’t be stupid. Don’t untie Putin’s hands. Don’t allow him to destroy Ukraine and turn it totally into pieces. Just stop the war. Just do, you know, what you did back in the late 1960s and 70s when United States was conducting and unjust and aggressive war in Vietnam. Just recall this for a second and imagine that once again this is happening in Europe. And once again, as it was in 1970’s, another Hitler is trying to destroy the continent and to conduct an assault on the western civilization. It’s about your days (ph), your world, your understanding of what is meaningful in life. Putin is fighting you in your days, that’s what I would say.

MARTIN: Yevgenia Albats, thank you so much for talking with us once again. I do hope you’ll remain well. And thank you so much for talking with us today.

ALBATS: Thank you very much, Michel.