July 10, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> TODAY, NATO IS STRONGER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN IN ITS HISTORY.

>> PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN VOWS TO STOP PUTIN, AS WORLD LEADERS CONVERGE ON WASHINGTON TO CELEBRATE 75 YEARS OF NATO.

BUT COULD EXTREME FORCES IN EUROPE AND AMERICA THREATEN THE ALLIANCE?

I ASK GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER ANNALENA BAERBOCK.

AND -- >> EVERY TIME THE ISRAELI ENEMY ESCALATES THE SITUATION, WE WILL ESCALATE EQUALLY AND ABOVE.

>> AS STRIKES AND COUNTERSTRIKES RAGE ACROSS THE ISRAEL/LEBANON BORDER, I SPEAK WITH HEZBOLLAH'S IBRAHIM MOUSSAWI.

THEN -- >> BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IVF IS A LOGICAL EXTENSION FROM BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH ABORTION.

>> HARI TALKS TO SACHA NAUTA ABOUT COMPLEX MORAL AND POLITICAL QUESTIONS AROUND IVF.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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SETON J. MELVIN.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS WORD LEADERS GATHER IN WASHINGTON TO MARK NATO'S 75th ANNIVERSARY, UNPRECEDENTED CHALLENGES FACE THE ALLIANCE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, A RAGING WAR IN EUROPE.

NOW INTO ITS THIRD YEAR.

NATO IS STEPPING UP WITH MORE CRITICAL AIR DEFENSES FOR UKRAINE, AFTER RUSSIA'S DEADLY STRIKE ON INFRASTRUCTURE, INCLUDING A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL IN KYIV.

ALREADY, MORE PATRIOT MISSILE SYSTEMS ARE HEADED THERE, AND THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE HAS ANNOUNCED THAT F-16 JETS WILL FINALLY BE FLYING OVER THE SKIES IN UKRAINE THIS SUMMER.

SPEAKING AS THE SUMMIT STARTED LAST NIGHT, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN GAVE A FULL-THROATED ENDORSEMENT.

>> IN EUROPE, PUTIN'S WAR OF AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE CONTINUES.

AND PUTIN WANTS NOTHING LESS -- NOTHING LESS -- THAN UKRAINE'S TOE SAL SUB EWE GAME.

BEFORE THIS THOUGHT BEFORE THIS WAR, NATO WOULD BREAK.

TODAY, NATO IS STRONGER THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN IN ITS HISTORY.

WHEN THIS SENSELESS WAR BEGAN, UKRAINE WAS A FREE COUNTRY.

TODAY, IT IS STILL A FREE COUNTRY, AND THE WAR WILL END WITH UKRAINE REMAINING A FREE AND INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.

>> INDEED.

ALSO IN WASHINGTON, THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, THANKED NATO ALLIES FOR THE MUCH AWAITED F-16s, AND HE CHALLENGED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION NOT TO, QUOTE, SHY AWAY FROM ITS STRENGTH, URGING IT TO REMOVE RESTRICTIONS AGAINST USING THOSE U.S.

WEAPONS ON TARGETS INSIDE RUSSIA.

ZELENSKYY ALSO SAID THE WHOLE WORLD IS WAITING FOR THE U.S.

ELECTIONS IN NOVEMBER.

GERMANY IS CONTRIBUTING ONE OF THE FOUR PATRIOT SYSTEMS ANNOUNCED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, AS ITS FOREIGN MINISTER ANNALENA BAERBOCK RECONS WITH THE CHALLENGES FACING WESTERN DEMOCRACY.

I REACHED HER AT NATO TO ASK ABOUT RUSSIA'S AGGRESSION.

THE RISE OF EXTREMISM IN EUROPE.

AND THE THREAT OF AN AUTOCRATIC AMERICA UNDER A SECOND TRUMP GOVERNMENT.

FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

CAN I ASK YOU WHETHER UKRAINE WILL GET THE WEAPONS IT NEEDS, CAN THE ALLIANCE, WILL THE ALLIANCE PROVIDE THE AIR DEFENSES, FOR INSTANCE, RAPIDLY, KEEP UP WITH UKRAINE'S NEEDS?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME AGAIN ON YOUR SHOW.

WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING HERE, AS AN ALLIANCE, TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, BECAUSE IT'S CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT PUTIN AND HE HAS UNDERLINED IT AGAIN WITH THE BRUTALITY OF THE LAST DAYS, ATTACKING A HOSPITAL FOR CHILDREN, THAT HE'S NOT ONLY ATTACKING UKRAINE, BUT HE'S ATTACKING LIBERAL DEMOCRATS, THE EUROPEAN PEACE ORDER, AND THEREFORE, WE DO EVERYTHING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

ALSO AND ESPECIALLY WITH AIR DEFENSE, OUR THIRD PATRIOT SYSTEM FROM GERMANY JUST REACHED UKRAINE.

AND IT WAS VERY GOOD TO HEAR YESTERDAY FROM THE U.S. PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT THEY WILL SUPPORT UKRAINE WITH FURTHER AIR DEFENSE, AS WELL.

>> SO, YOU BROUGHT UP PRESIDENT BIDEN, I JUST WONDER WHETHER THAT'S A LITTLE BIT THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, AS THE ALLIES WAIT TO SEE WHO IS GOING TO RUN, WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

YOUR CHANCELLOR, OLAF SCHOLZ, SAID THAT HE HAD NO CONCERNS AND NO WORRIES ABOUT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ABILITY TO DO THIS JOB.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN HEARING, WHAT HAVE YOU -- WHAT IMPRESSION HAVE YOU MADE OF THE PRESIDENT?

>> THIS ALLIANCE IS SO STRONG, BECAUSE OF THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF THE UNITED STATES, OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, WITHIN THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS.

I BELIEVE NATO HAS NEVER BEEN STRONGER THAN BEFORE, AND THE UNITY HAS NEVER BEEN STRONGER, ESPECIALLY BETWEEN MY COUNTRY, GERMANY, AND THE UNITED STATES.

WE, THE TWO OF US, ARE THE BIGGEST DONOR FOR UKRAINE, WITH MILITARY SUPPORT FROM GERMANY SIDE, ALSO WITH HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT AND SUPPORT FOR REFUGEES, AND THEREFORE, YES, MY CHANCELLOR UNDERLINED THAT THIS CLOSE COLLABORATION IS ALSO THE TRUST-BUILDING FOUNDATION FOR THE RESISTANCE AGAINST RUSSIAN WAR OF AGGRESSION AND FOR THE SUPPORT OF UKRAINE, AND I THINK THE PRESIDENT UNDERLINED THAT YESTERDAY NIGHT HERE AT THE OPENING OF THIS NATO SUMMIT.

>> SO, YOU HAVE NO CONCERNS THAT HE MIGHT NOT MAKE IT TO THE PRESIDENCY, TO RE-ELECTION, AND THAT TRUMP MIGHT BE A SECOND TERM PRESIDENT?

THAT MUST BE THE CONVERSATION IN THE ROOM RIGHT NOW, NO?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY LIBERAL DEMOCRACY ARE CHALLENGED NOT ONLY FROM OUTSIDE, BUT ALSO FROM INSIDE.

AND IN THESE TIMES, YOU NEED STRONG FRIENDS AND PARTNERS.

AND THIS IS WHAT THIS ALLIANCE IS FOR, AND THEREFORE, WE INCREASE NOT ONLY AS GERMANY, BUT AS EUROPEAN, OUR SHARE WITHIN NATO.

NOW, MY COUNTRY, AND MANY, MANY OTHERS, ARE SPENDING 2% OF THEIR GDP FOR COMMON SECURITY, FOR MILITARY CAPABILITIES, AND ALSO I MADE VERY CLEAR THAT THE EUROPEAN PILLOW WITHIN NATO HAS TO BE STRENGTHENED, BUT THE STRONGER THE EUROPEAN PILLAR IS, THE STRONGER OUR TRANSATLANTIC TIES, ESPECIALLY IN THESE TIMES, AND I THINK ALSO HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S VERY CLEAR FOR MANY PEOPLE THAT THE STRENGTHS OF NATO IS THE BEST GUARANTEE FOR THE SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING, NATO'S IMPORTANCE, AND THE 75th ANNIVERSARY, COMES AT A TIME OF A CHANGING, SHIFTING POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

IN EUROPE, YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON IN THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS, YOU'VE SEEN THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IN FRANCE, THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IN GERMANY.

THE AFD CAME SECOND IN THE MEP ELECTIONS.

AND YOU SEE THE POTENTIAL OF, YOU KNOW, A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE AND PARTIES TEND TO QUESTION THE COMMITMENT TO NATO AND TO UKRAINE.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE NATO'S CORE MISSION MIGHT BE UPENDED BY THE RISING RIGHT POLITICS?

>> OBVIOUSLY WE CANNOT IGNORE THE RISE OF EXTREME RIGHT WING PARTIES, AND ALSO THE DANGER, BECAUSE THEY ARE CHALLENGING LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES FROM INSIDE.

AND ARE DOING PART OF THE JOB RUSSIA IS TRYING TO DO FROM OUTSIDE.

BUT WE SHOULDN'T IGNORE, AS WELL, THE STRENGTHS OF DEMOCRATIC PARTIES, AND ESPECIALLY DEMOCRATIC COOPERATION WITHIN SOCIETY.

WE HAVE SEEN AT THE LAST WEEKEND, IN FRANCE, THAT THE EXTREME RIGHT DIDN'T SUCCEED IN RULING OUR CLOSEST FRIEND AND PARTNER IN EUROPE, FRANCE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE COOPERATION BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PARTYS IS THE BEST RESILIENCE.

AND IN THESE TIMES OF INSECURITY FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY, WE HAVE TO STAND UP TO OUR RESPONSIBILITY OF COOPERATION, OF TRUST, AND ALSO IN SHOWING THAT WE STAY UNITED, BESIDES ALL THE DIFFERENCES WE MAY HAVE AS DEMOCRACIES, BECAUSE THIS IS NORMAL.

BUT STAY UNITED IN OUR COMMON GOAL OF DEFENDING OUR DEMOCRACY AND OUR LIBERTY AND SECURITY.

>> SO, AS THIS DEMOCRACY IS THREATENED FROM WITHIN, IN SO MANY OF THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES, A VERY INTERESTING DEMOGRAPHIC SHOWS THAT IN GERMANY, FOR INSTANCE, THE SHARE OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR AFD JUMPED 11% IN THAT YOUNG AGE.

THAT'S A JUMP SINCE 2019.

YOUR GREEN PARTY ALSO PERFORMED, YOU KNOW, WORSE THAN IT DID BEFORE.

AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PART OF THAT MOVEMENT.

HOW DO YOU HOPE TO INSPIRE YOUNG PEOPLE TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY, TO DEFEND THE PRINCIPLES OF NATO, AND DO YOU EVER THINK YOURSELF OF RUNNING FOR CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY?

>> MAYBE GOING TO THE FIRST POINT, NATO AND ALSO OUR EUROPEAN UNION IS THE STRONGEST INSURANCE FOR PEACE ORDER.

BUT THIS DIDN'T FALL FROM SKY, AND WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN, AGAIN AND AGAIN, ESPECIALLY TO YOUNGER PEOPLE, WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE HORROR OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WHAT THIS EUROPE IS ALL ABOUT.

AND ALSO, COUNTER FAKE NEWS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WAY STRONGER THAN WE DID IN THE PAST.

AS DEMOCRACIES, BEING RESILIENT AGAINST THIS PROPAGANDA.

AND WE HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB IN THIS ALTOGETHER, AS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTIES, AND COMING TO YOUR SECOND PART OF THE QUESTION, OBVIOUSLY THE WORLD IS A TOTAL DIFFERENT ONE THAN AT THE LAST GERMAN NATIONAL ELECTION.

IN THE LIGHT OF RUSSIA'S WAR OF AGGRESSION, AND NOW ALSO WITH REGARD TO THE DRAMATIC SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IT NEEDS MORE DIPLOMACY, AND NOT LESS.

BECAUSE OTHERWISE, OTHERS WILL FILL THIS GAP.

AND THEREFORE, IN THESE TIMES OF CRISIS, I BELIEVE THAT POLITICAL RESPONSIBILITY MEANS, AS A FOREIGN MINISTER, NOT BEING TIED UP IN A CANDIDACY FOR GERMAN CHANCELLORSHIP, INSTEAD, CONTINUE TO USE ALL MY ENERGY AS FOREIGN MINISTER TO MY ROLE OF BUILDING TRUST AND BUILDING COOPERATION, BUILDING RELIABLE STRUCTURES, BECAUSE SO MANY PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD AND IN EUROPE COUNT ON THAT.

HAVING SAID THAT, OBVIOUSLY, IN ELECTION TIMES, I WILL DO EVERYTHING TO SUPPORT MY OWN PARTY, LIKE I DID IN THE PAST.

>> I UNDERSTAND, I THINK YOU'RE SAYING YES, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

WHAT ABOUT, THEN, DIPLOMACY, BECAUSE THE HEAD OF THE EUROPEAN -- >> EVERY TIME -- EVERY TIME -- EVERY TIME HAS ITS TASK.

>> OKAY.

IN TERMS OF DIPLOMACY, THE HEAD OF THE ROTATING EUROPEAN COUNCIL PRESIDENCY RIGHT NOW IS HUNGARY.

AND THE PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY DOES PRESIDE OVER A FAR RIGHT GOVERNMENT, OR, VERY CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT.

AND HE HAS DECIDED TO GO TO UKRAINE, TO GO TO MOSCOW, AND BREAK THE SORT OF DIPLOMATIC ISOLATION, GO TO CHINA, AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT A PEACE PROCESS.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT HAS YOUR SUPPORT?

>> WELL, SOMETIMES YOU WONDER ABOUT THE EGO, ESPECIALLY OF SOME MEN, BECAUSE EVERY COUNTRY IN THE EUROPEAN UNION KNOWS THAT ESPECIALLY IN THE FIELD OF FOREIGN POLITICS AND SECURITY, THAT RESPONSIBILITY DOESN'T LIE WITH THE PRESIDENCY, WHICH ONLY LASTS SIX MONTHS, BUT WITH THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, ALSO THE COMMISSIONER PRESIDENT, FOR FOREIGN POLITICS.

AND THEREFORE, OBVIOUSLY, HE WAS SPEAKING ON HIS OWN BEHALF, AND WHAT HE SAID, I MEAN, IN UKRAINE, START DEFENDING YOURSELF, TELLING THIS TO THE VICTIM, TELLING THIS TO THE VICTIM OF AN AGGRESSION WHICH IS IN TOTAL BREACH, NOT ONLY OF THE EUROPEAN PEACE ORDER, THE CHARTER, BUT NOT TELLING IN CHINA, STOP SUPPORTING THIS WAR OF AGGRESSION AS YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

OBVIOUSLY MAKES VERY CLEAR THAT THIS IS NOT THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE UNITED STATES AT YOUR SUMMIT HAS SAID THAT FINALLY, THE F-16s WILL START FLYING IN UKRAINE, AND DEFENDING UKRAINIAN AIR SPACE BY THIS SUMMER.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THAT?

>> OUR STRENGTH IN NATO IS NOT ONLY WHAT THIS ALLIANCE WAS FOUNDED FOR, ONE FOR ALL, AND ALL FOR ONE, BUT ALSO THAT YOU COOPERATE IN THE DIFFICULT MOMENT, IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY.

AND THIS IS WHY ALLIES ARE CONTRIBUTING NOW, AND WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS WITHIN THE LAST TWO YEARS INTENSIVELY, ON ALL THE EXPERTISE THEY DO HAVE.

WE IN GERMANY, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE VERY STRONG ON AIR DEFENSE.

THIS IS WHY WE ARE DELIVERING SYSTEMS LIKE PATRIOT, THE IST, AND MANY, MANY OTHERS.

OTHER SUPPORTING WITH THE F-16s, YOU ARE JUST MENTIONING.

AND IN COMBINATION, ALL OF THIS JUST HAS ONE GOAL.

TO DEFEND THE SOVEREIGNTY, THE LIBERTY, OF UKRAINE, HELPING THE UKRAINIAN ARMY TO FREE THE COUNTRY, AND ALSO BY THAT, DEFENDING OUR EUROPEAN WAY OF LIFE IN PEACE AND IN LIBERTY.

>> NOW, OVERSHADOWING, TO AN EXTENT, YOUR SUMMIT, IS THE ONGOING, RAGING WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS EXPANDING.

LET'S FIRST START WITH GAZA, AND THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE ANNOUNCED BILLIONS, RATHER, MILLIONS OF EUROS IN MORE AID.

AFTER NINE MONTHS OF WAR, THE U.N. IS NOW DECLARING A FAMINE DOES EXIST IN GAZA.

AND WE DON'T KNOW, BUT THERE'S CONSTANT TALK ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE OR RELEASE OF HOSTAGES, SOMETHING, BUT IT HASN'T YET MATERIALIZED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT STEPS?

AND DO YOU THINK GERMANY, WITH ALL ITS HISTORICAL BAGGAGE, IS HOLDING ALL SIDES OF THAT CONFLICT TO ACCOUNT?

>> THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON, THE LAST NINE MONTHS.

I'VE BEEN THERE MANY, MANY TIMES, LIKE MY DEAR FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE TONY BLINKEN, TO UNDERLINE THAT ISRAEL CAN ONLY LIVE IN PEACE IF PALESTINIANS ARE LIVING IN PEACE, AND PALESTINIANS CAN ONLY LIVE IN PEACE IF ISRAELIS CAN LIVE IN PEACE.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON CONSTANTLY, ALSO WITH ARAB PARTNERS.

AND THEREFORE, THE BIDEN PLAN IS THE ONLY WAY TO COME OUT OF THIS TOTAL DISASTER.

I WAS RECENTLY THERE, GAVE A SPEECH AT THE SECURITY CONFERENCE, AND MADE CLEAR THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE SUFFERING OF THE PEOPLE, AND ONE MOTHER OF A HOSTAGE TOLD ME THAT IT DOESN'T BRING BACK MY OWN CHILD, MY OWN SON, IF ANOTHER MOTHER LOSES NOW IN GAZA THEIR CHILD.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, TO END THE SUFFERING FOR BOTH SIDES, TO SEE THE HUMANITY, MAKING CLEAR THAT THE TERRORIST ATTACKS FROM HAMAS HAVE TO STOP, THAT THE HOSTAGES HAVE TO BE FREED, THAT HUMANITARIAN AID HAS TO COME IN, THAT WE COME TO A CEASE-FIRE, AND THAT WE DO NOT LOSE THE SIGHT OF A LASTING PEACE PLAN, MEANING A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

I KNOW THAT IT'S REALLY HARD, AND YOU CAN SOMETIMES REALLY LOSE THE TRUST IN THE FUTURE, BUT I THINK THERE'S NO ALTERNATIVE ON THAT, AND BUILDING A FUTURE ALTOGETHER, BECAUSE OTHERWISE, AGGRESSION WILL RULE THIS WORLD.

>> YOU'VE ALSO CRITICIZED THE INCREASING SETTLER VIOLENCE, ISRAELI SETTLER VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK, AND SAYING PARTS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT COALITION ARE STIRRING UP TROUBLE AND ENDANGERING LONG-TERM ISRAELI SECURITY INTERESTS WITH THEIR AGGRESSIVE SETTLER POLICY.

THAT'S QUITE A CLEAR, AND I THINK IT MATCHES ALSO WHAT THE U.S. SAYS.

BUT WHAT ABOUT TENSIONS ON THE ISRAEL/LEBANON FRONT?

EVERYBODY HAS SAID THEY JUST DON'T WANT A WIDER WAR.

DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO EXPLODE INTO A WIDER WAR?

>> BECAUSE ISRAEL'S SECURITY IS, FOR MY COUNTRY -- WE ARE WORKING ON SO MANY FIELDS AND FRONTS THAT THERE WILL BE NOT AN ESCALATION.

AND THIS MEANS THE WEST BANK, I WARNED INTENSIVELY, AS YOU HAVE MENTIONED, THAT ABOUT ESCALATION IN THE WEST BANK, WEAKENING OF THE P.A., IS A TOTAL DRAMA.

AND THEREFORE, THE FUNDING OF THE P.A.

HAS TO GO ON, BECAUSE, I MEAN, IF SCHOOLS ARE NOT RUNNING ANYMORE IN THE WEST BANK, BECAUSE THE FINANCIAL GUARANTEES, WHICH THE OSLO GUARANTEES GAVE TO THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT THERE ANYMORE, THIS WON'T SECURE THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL.

AND SAME GOES FOR THE NORTHERN FRONT YOU MENTIONED.

I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO BOTH SIDES, AGAIN AND AGAIN, I HEAR SO OFTEN, ESPECIALLY FROM THE PEOPLE, BUT ALSO FROM THE GOVERNMENTS.

WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON, BUT WE SHOULDN'T SLIDE INTO ANOTHER WAR.

AND THIS IS THE DANGER WE ARE CURRENTLY ON, THAT IT'S A TIT FOR TAT, AND THEREFORE, AGAIN, DIPLOMACY, AND ALSO THE EFFORTS OF THE SPECIAL ENVOY FROM THE UNITED STATES IS SO IMPORTANT.

AND THEREFORE, WE ARE CALLING STRONGLY ON DE-ESCALATION.

AND THIS WAS MY MESSAGE TO IRAN, WHICH OBVIOUSLY PLAYS A ROLE IN THIS WHOLE SITUATION.

>> OKAY.

FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, IN TODAYINDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, AND BEST GREETINGS.

>>> FOLLOWING ON FROM WHAT WE JUST HEARD, ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA IS ANOTHER KEY CHALLENGE TO NATO, AS FEAR OF AN ALL-OUT WAR ON THE ISRAEL-LEBANON BORDER IS ALSO RISING.

TWO ISRAELI CIVILIANS WERE KILLED IN A HEZBOLLAH ROCKET ATTACK ON THE GOLAN HEIGHTS, THE OCCUPIED GOLAN HEIGHTS ON TUESDAY.

HEZBOLLAH SAYS THE ATTACK WAS A RETALIATION FOR THE KILLING OF A SENIOR COMMANDER.

NOW, TODAY, ISRAEL SAYS ITS AIR FORCE STRUCK ANOTHER HEZBOLLAH SITE IN CENTRAL LEBANON'S BEKAA VALLEY.

IBRAHIM MOUSSAWI IS WITH US, AND I SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT THE RISKS OF AN ALL-OUT WAR, THE CIVILIANS IN THE MIDDLE, AND I CHALLENGED HIM ON HIS OWN PAST COMMENTS AS YOU'LL HEAR.

HE JOINED ME FROM BEIRUT.

DR. IBRAHIM MOUSSAWI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU REPRESENT HEZBOLLAH IN PARLIAMENT, YOU ARE AN MP.

AND SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU IN THE CONTEXT OF REALLY HEIGHTENED TENSIONS AND MILITARY ACTIVITY ACROSS THE BORDER WITH ISRAEL, THERE'S A GROWING CONCERN, OBVIOUSLY, THAT THIS WAR COULD SPREAD.

DO YOU -- HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE RISK OF A -- OF A MAJOR WAR RIGHT NOW BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL?

>> WELL, EVER SINCE THE ERUPTION OF THE CONFLICT AND THE HOSTILITIES OF THE ISRAELIS AFTER THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, AND AFTER THE ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND THE ISRAELI ENEMY, WE HAVE STICK TO CERTAIN RULES ALL OF THE TIME THAT WE TARGETED THE MILITARY POSITIONS OF THE ISRAELIS, ESPECIALLY IN THE OCCUPIED AREAS IN LEBANON.

THEN THERE HAS BEEN AN ESCALATION FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE, AND THEN WE HAVE PUT A FORMULA THAT EVERY TIME THE ISRAELI ENEMY ESCALATES THE SITUATION, WE WOULD ESCALATE EQUALLY AND ABOVE.

AND THIS IS THE THINGS HAS GONE SO FAR.

I BELIEVE WE ARE NOT ON THE ADVENT OF ANY KIND OF A COMPREHENSIVE WAR, AN OPEN WAR.

THE ISRAELIS DON'T WANT THAT, THE LEBANESE DON'T WANT THAT.

EVEN THE REGIONAL AND THE INTERNATIONAL POWERS DO NOT WANT THAT.

MAYBE NOT NETANYAHU HIMSELF WANTS THIS KIND OF COMPREHENSIVE BREAKOUT OF THE FRONT.

WE'RE TRYING TO BRING THE AMERICANS TO ENGAGE DIRECTLY INTO THE CONFLICT.

BUT ACCORDING TO MY ESTIMATIONS, AND OUR UNDERSTANDING, IT'S NOT IN ANYBODY'S INTEREST TO GO TO AN ALL-OUT WAR.

>> SO, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE IDF ON, YOU KNOW, LAST WEEK, KILLED A SENIOR HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER IN THE SOUTH OF LEBANON, YOU KNOW, AND AS YOU SAID, EACH TIME WE HAVE SOMETHING, WE RESPOND EQUAL AND HIGHER.

AND THE LEADER OF HEZBOLLAH SAID IF WAR IS IMPOSED, THE RESISTANCE WILL FIGHT CONSTRAINTS, RULES OR LIMITS.

WHAT EXACTLY IS HE SAYING?

IS HE MAKING A THREAT?

>> YES, IT IS A THREAT, YES, IT IS A WARNING.

YES, IT IS AN INDICATIVE TOWARD THE WHOLE WORLD THAT IF THE ISRAELIS ARE GOING TO IMPOSE A WAR, THIS WILL PUT THE EQUATION IN ITS PROPER PLACE.

WE ARE REACTING TO A HOSTILITY.

WE ARE RESPONDING TO AN ACTION.

AND WE ARE RETALIATING TO AN ATTACK OR TO A KIND OF ASSASSINATION OR TARGETING OF OUR PEOPLES AND OUR AREA.

THAT'S WHY, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, WE ARE MAKING THE PRICE VERY HIGH NOT TO GO INTO ANY RISK.

>> YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THE PRESS ACCOUNTS THAT SAY HEZBOLLAH HAS 150,000 ROCKETS AND MISSILES, QUITE SOPHISTICATED, AND THEY MIGHT EVEN OVERWHELM THE EQUALLY SOPHISTICATED ISRAELI IRON DOME DEFENSE IN A FIRST ROUND.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?

>> I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH ARSENAL, WE HAVE ENOUGH AMMUNITION, WE HAVE ENOUGH ROCKETS, MISSILE, WHATEVER IT TAKES, IN ORDER TO RESPOND IN A VERY EFFECTIVE WAY AGAINST ANY ISRAELI AGGRESSION, AGAINST ANY ISRAELI MAJOR HOSTILITY AGAINST OUR PEOPLE, AGAINST OUR LAND.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HEZBOLLAH HAS DONE LONG TIME AGO.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I WANT TO DRAW THE ATTENTION, BECAUSE OF THE FAILURE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO ADDRESS THE PALESTINIAN CRISIS IN A GOOD WAY, BECAUSE OF THIS UNLEASHED POWER OF THE ISRAELIS TO DESTROY, TO KILL CHILDREN, TO KILL WOMAN, TO DESTROY THIS MAJOR MAGNITUDE OF DESTRUCTION IN GAZA, THIS IS AN INDICATION OF THE FAILURE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL, TO FIND JUST SOLUTIONS SO THE PROBLEMS THAT THERE THERE.

SO, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ACCUMULATED ENOUGH EXPERTISE AND ENOUGH MISSILES AND ROCKETS AND AMMUNITION TO MAKE RETALIATION AND TO MAKE ANY KIND OF ADVANCE FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE A VERY COSTLY ONE.

>> SO, AS YOU KNOW, AND YOU ALLUDED TO THIS, LEBANON JUST DOESN'T WANT ANOTHER WAR.

THE PRIME MINISTER DOESN'T WANT IT, THE LEBANESE PEOPLE DON'T WANT IT, SO MANY PEOPLE ARE URGING YOU, HEZBOLLAH, NOT TO PURSUE A WAR.

AND I REMEMBER COVERING THE 2006 WAR.

AND ISRAEL ATTACKED, YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE, ET CETERA, RIGHT INSIDE -- TO BEIRUT, AND THERE WAS DEVASTATION, AND IT LOOK A LONG, LONG TIME TO REBUILD.

AND 80% OF LEBANESE ARE LIVING IN POVERTY RIGHT NOW.

DAMAGE TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, TO YOUR OWN PEOPLE, AND YOU ARE A POLITICAL PARTY, AS WELL.

WHAT'S IN IT FOR YOU?

>> YOU HAVE TO SEE THE PROPERSPECTIVES.

IT'S NOT ONLY ONE WAY, ONE FRONT.

WE HAVE RESPONDING TO AN ATTACK.

I HAVE TO REMIND YOU AND THE WHOLE -- THAT STILL PARTS OF OUR LAND IS OCCUPIED, AND -- MANY PLACES, MANY AMBITIONS OF THE ISRAELIS AGAINST OUR OIL, AGAINST OUR WATER, AGAINST OUR SOIL.

THEY NEVER RESPONDED, AND THEY NEVER MADE THE INTERNATIONAL RESOLUTIONS MATERIALIZE.

THEY NEVER PUT IT IN PRACTICE, THE 425, WHICH WAS LIKE THE RESOLUTION BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BY THE UNITED NATIONS, IT WAS NOT PUT INTO EFFECT.

BUT BECAUSE OF THE RESISTANCE, AND, AGAIN, THIS -- ANY KIND OF RESOLUTIONS IS NOT BEING RESPECTED OR IS NOT BEING APPLIED BY THE ISRAELIS.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

WE ARE NOT INVITING A WAR.

WITH OUR DETERRENCE FORCE, WE ARE FILLING A GAP, AND WE ARE TELLING THE ISRAELIS, IN A VERY STRONG WAY, THAT THIS IS GOING TO COST YOU SO MUCH, AND THIS IS A DETERRENT FOR AN ALL-OUT WAR, RATHER THAN INVITING IT.

NOBODY WANTS TO SEE A WAR.

WE ALL HATE THE WAR.

WE KNOW THAT WAR WOULD INVITE HAVOC AND DESTRUCTION AND MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE KILLED.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU SEE, I SEE, EVERYBODY SEES WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN GAZA, THIS IS THE KIND OF GENOCIDE, THIS IS A KIND OF APARTHEID, THIS IS A KIND OF DESTRUCTION THAT ARE UNPARALLELED, UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY.

GAZA IS ENOUGH OF A WITNESS FOR WHAT KIND OF BRUTALITY, HOSTILITY, AND GENOCIDAL WAR THE ISRAELIS ARE WAGING.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, YOU USE THE WORD GENOCIDE, OBVIOUSLY, ISRAEL DISAGREES WITH THAT, ALTHOUGH MANY IN THE ARAB WORLD DO USE THAT WORD.

ISRAEL REJECTS THAT.

>> ACCORDING TO CRIMINAL LAW, THEY ARE EXERCISING GENOCIDE AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

>> THE SOUTH AFRICANS HAVE BROUGHT A CASE, ALLEGING THAT, NOTHING HAS BEEN ADJUDICATED.

THE ICC HAS BROUGHT A CASE ACCUSING THEM OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND WAR CRIMES.

NOT GENOCIDE.

BUT LET'S JUST MOVE AWAY FROM THAT TERM, BECAUSE I NEED TO ASK YOU, ON OCTOBER 8th -- >> THIS IS NOT GENOCIDE, WHAT IS GENOCIDE THEN?

>> I'M NOT HAVING A SEMANTIC ARGUMENT WITH YOU RIGHT NOW, MR. MOUSSAWI.

WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS THIS -- >> I UNDERSTAND.

I RESPECT THAT.

>> ALL RIGHT, I APPRECIATE IT.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OF THE STUFF YOU'VE SAID.

SO, ABOUT NINE MONTHS AGO, OCTOBER 7th HAPPENED.

EVEN YAHYA SINWAR ALLEGEDLY, ACCORDING TO LEAKED INTERCEPTS BY "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" SAID HE DIDN'T EXPECT THAT AMOUNT OF CIVILIAN KILLING INSIDE -- BY THE VARIOUS GROUPS INSIDE ISRAEL.

BUT ON OCTOBER 8th, YOU SAID, PALESTINE HAD NEVER WITNESSED GLORIOUS VICTORIES LIKE THE ONE WE ARE WITNESSING TODAY.

AND YOU HAVE APPARENTLY POSTED SOME INFLAMMATORY THINGS, INCLUDING AN ANTI-SEMITIC IMAGE OF AN ISRAELI BABY DRINKING THE BLOOD OF PALESTINIANS.

AND, AGAIN, BACK IN 2002, IT WAS REPORTED THAT YOU SAID JEWS WERE A LESION ON THE FOREHEAD OF HISTORY.

SO, YOU TALK ABOUT HUMANITY.

DO YOU STAND BY THOSE WORDS?

OR DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE HUMANITY OF THOSE ISRAELI CIVILIANS WAS ALSO ATTACKED?

>> WELL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

THIS IS -- I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

I DIDN'T SAY JEWS IS THE LESION OF THE HISTORY.

AND I DEFENDED MYSELF MANY TIMES.

I NEVER SAID THAT.

I SAID WHAT THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION IS DOING IS A STAIN IN THE FOREHEAD OF HUMANITY.

THIS IS WHAT I SAID.

I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT JEWS.

I HAVE MANY JEWISH FRIENDS.

I INVITED JEWISH RABBIS TO LEBANON 2005 AND 2004, AND I HAVE FRIENDS WHO WERE IN MANCHESTER, IN BRITAIN.

I INVITED THEM HERE.

WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THE JEWS.

THERE ARE MANY JEWS WHO ARE ANTI-ZIONISTS, AND THEY ARE NOT SUPPORTING ISRAEL.

SO, I MAKE A VERY CLEAR DISCRIMINATION AND DIFFERENTIATION.

THIS IS ONE THING.

I NEVER SAID THAT THEY DRANK THE BLOOD OF THE CHILDREN OR WHATEVER.

THIS IS AGAIN SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN PUT IN MY MOUTH.

WHAT I SAY, I SAY CLEARLY, IN A VERY RESPONSIBLE WAY, AND PUBLICLY, I NEVER TAKE MY WORDS THAT I SAID.

AND IF I MADE ANY WRONG, I'LL SAY I MADE A MISTAKE.

BUT BOTH ALLEGATIONS ARE COMPLETE ALLEGATIONS AND FABRICATIONS THAT I DIDN'T SAY.

>> WHAT ABOUT ON OCTOBER 8th WHEN YOU SAID PALESTINE HAD NEVER WITNESSED GLORIOUS VICTORIES LIKE THE ONE WE'RE WITNESSING TODAY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YES, OF COURSE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I SAID, BUT YOU TOOK SOMETHING ELSE ABOUT BLOOD -- >> NO, NO, THESE ARE THREE THINGS I PUT TO YOU.

>> YES.

OKAY.

NOW, AS FOR THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, YES, THE KIND OF HUMILIATION THAT HAS BEEN PUT TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY, TO THE ISRAELI MIGHT, TO THOSE WHO ARE -- WHO COULDN'T FIND ANYONE IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO STOP THEM, YES, IT WAS A VICTORY FOR PALESTINIANS.

ANYWAY, THINGS ARE BY THEIR RESULTS.

EVERYTHING IS GOOD IF IT ENDS GOOD.

WE DON'T LIKE WARS, WE HATE WARS, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE DESTRUCTION AND KILLING, BUT WE WANT TO SEE JUSTICE TAKING ITS PLACE.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS A RESTORE RATION OF THE JUSTICE BY BRINGING THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE BACK TO THE LIGHTS IN THE EYES OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THE -- THIS KIND OF AWAKENESS OF THE ELITE AND THE STUDENTS AND THE ACADEMICS IN BRITAIN AND, IN FRANCE, IN -- THE UNITED STATES ITSELF, WHEN THEY SAW AFTER THIS LONG TIME OF BRAINWASHING, THEY WERE ABLE TO SEE, THEY WANT TO SEE PALESTINE FREE, AND THEY ARE SUPPORTING THE FREEDOM OF PALESTINE.

I BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED THEN, BECAUSE ISRAEL DEFENDS SOLELY ON ITS MILITARY MACHINE, THIS KILLING MACHINE, YES, IT WAS A VICTORY TO THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, AND WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE THE RESULTS THAT WILL COME AND THE RESULTS THAT WILL UNFOLD IN THE FUTURE, BEFORE WE MAKE RUSHING CONCLUSIONS.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU IF YOU ARE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CIVILIANS, WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND KIDS, WHO WERE MASSACRED, AND WHATEVER MILITARY FORCE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

CAN YOU MAKE THAT DISTINCTION?

BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT, THERE IS NO PEACE.

THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO ROOM FOR ANYTHING.

>> WE HAVE NEVER TARGETED CIVILIANS.

AND YOU KNOW THAT THE ISRAELIS ARE WELL-KNOWN FOR THEIR LITANY OF MASSACRES AGAINST THE PEOPLE.

I CAN MENTION SCORES OF MASSACRES IN LEBANON.

I REMIND YOU ABOUT SCORES OF MASSACRES THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE DONE.

AND NOW, YOU KNOW, THEY SUPPORTED, I MEAN, IT'S THERE, THEY ARE PUBLICLY SAYING THAT THEY WANT TO GET RID OF ALL OF THE PALESTINIANS.

FOR US, WE HAVE TARGETED AND RECONTINUE TO TARGET THE MILITARY MIGHT OF THE ISRAELIS.

AND THE MILITARY PERSONNEL.

>> OKAY.

>> WE ONLY RESPOND WHEN THEY TARGET OUR CIVILIANS.

>> OKAY.

SO, LET ME -- I NEED TO ABSOLUTELY SAY, BECAUSE THERE IS AN IMAGE OF THIS -- IT'S CALLED A BLOOD LIABLE, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES, THAT YOU POSTED, A CARTOON, WHICH YOU DENY HAVING POSTED, BUT YOU DID, AND IT'S STILL UP THERE.

AN ISRAELI BABY DRINKING THE BLOOD OF PALESTINIANS.

CAN I MOVE ON, PLEASE?

IT IS WELL-KNOWN THAT YOU ARE PART OF THE SO-CALLED AXIS OF RESISTANCE, THAT IS BACKED BY IRAN, SINCE, AS YOU MENTIONED, 1982, THE INVASION OF LEBANON, ET CETERA.

YOU, OR, RATHER, YOUR LEADER, HAS HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE NEW IRANIAN PRESIDENT.

WHAT IS, YOU KNOW, IS HEZBOLLAH A LEBANESE NATIONAL GROUP, OR, AS IT IS ACCUSED OF, IS IT AN IRANIAN BRANCH?

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU, WITH ALL THE PRIDE, WITH ALL DIGNITY, WITH ALL HONOR THAT WE ARE PROUD TO BE LEBANESE, WE ARE LEBANESE, WE CONTINUE TO BE LEBANESE.

WE ARE NOT IRANIANS.

WE DON'T WORK FOR IRAN.

WE'RE NOT PROXIES OF IRAN.

WE HAVE AN AXIS OF RESISTANCE AGAINST AN OCCUPATION THAT HAS TARGETED US ALL, AS ARABS, AS MUSLIMS, AS CHRISTIANS, BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS TARGETED THE CHURCHES AS MUCH AS THEY TARGETED THE HOSPITALS AND THE EDUCATIONAL CENTERS, AND THE SCHOOLS, AND, AND, AND.

NOW, WHEN ISRAEL TAKES THE SUPPORT OF FRANCE, BRITAIN, GERMANY, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, WHO COME FROM THOUSANDS OF MILES TO SUPPORT THIS OCCUPATION THAT HAS BEEN IMPOSED IN OUR REGION, I BELIEVE THE PEOPLE OF THE REGION, WITH ALL THE PRIDE AND HONOR, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ONE FRONT AND TO STAND UP TO THIS KIND OF CHALLENGES, HOSTILITIES, AGGRESSIONS, OCCUPATION, COLONIAL COLONIALISM.

THIS IS A DIRECT COLONIAL POWER THAT HAS BEEN INSTALLED IN OUR REGION, AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT, AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE SAME THREAT, THE SAME ENEMY, THE SAME OCCUPATION, TO FIGHT AS ONE.

WE ARE INDEPENDENT, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT HEZBOLLAH IS MORE INDEPENDENT THAN MANY GOVERNMENTS AND STATES, PER SE, IN THE REGION, BECAUSE THEY ARE PROXIES OF THE AMERICANS AND THEY ARE BEING DICTATED BY THE AMERICANS TO DO THIS OR NOT TO DO THAT, WHILE WE, AS A NATIONAL GROUP, LEBANESE GROUP, PROUD TO BE LEBANESE.

WE SUPPORT A MORAL ISSUE OF PALESTINE, OF GAZA, AND WE TRY TO DO OUR BEST, OUR DUTY, OUR MORAL RELIGIOUS HUMAN DUTY TO SUPPORT THEM.

>> OKAY.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION ABOUT A MILITARY ISSUE.

SO, BACK IN THE 2006 WAR BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL, AFTERWARDS, HAS RAL LA SAID HE WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED THE WAR IF HE KNEW THE DAMAGE THAT WOULD RESULT.

AND HE KNOW HOW MUCH DAMAGE RESULTED.

HE TOLD "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT.

YOU MENTIONED IT, U.N.

RESOLUTIONS, ET CETERA.

THE UNITED STATES WANTS YOU TO MOVE YOUR FORCES FARTHER BACK FROM THE BORDER.

AS REQUIRED BY THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION THAT WAS PASSED AFTER THE 2006 WAR.

IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT YOU WILL MOVE YOUR FORCES BACK, THAT ISRAEL WILL MOVE ITS FORCES BACK, AND LIKE THAT, YOU CAN ELIMINATE THIS CONFLICT ON THIS BORDER?

>> I CAN TELL YOU THAT IF AN ALL-OUT WAR ERUPTS THIS TIME, THE ISRAELIS, AND, OF COURSE, WE DON'T WANT TO START THIS, IF THE ISRAELIS STARTED IT, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO WOULD SAY THAT, HAD WE KNOWN THIS KIND OF DESTRUCTION WOULD HAPPEN, WE WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED IT.

THIS IS ONE THING.

THE OTHER THING, THIS IS A SITUATION OF WAIT AND SEE.

WE DON'T WANT -- WE DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF SITUATION WILL PREVAIL.

WE FOLLOW THIS KIND OF CONSTRUCTIVE AM BIG BYTY AND WE DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

WE WAIT AND SEE, AND THEN WE WILL TAKE THE RIGHT DECISION AT THE RIGHT TIME.

>> MR. MOUSSAWI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>> PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE IVF DELIVERS OVER 90,000 AMERICAN BABIES EVERY YEAR, AND IS DRIVING A WEDGE NOT ONLY BETWEEN PARTIES, BUT ALSO WITHIN THE GOP ITSELF.

IN HER RECENT PIECE, SACHA NAUTA, THE ECONOMIST SOCIAL AFFAIRS ED ATTORNEY, HIGHLIGHTS HOW REPUBLICANS WHO OPPOSED ABORTION RIGHTS ARE STRUGGLING TO BACK THE MORAL ARGUMENT TO BAN IVF.

AND THE JOURNALIST JOINS HARI NOW TO DISCUSS ITS POTENTIAL IMPACT ON THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

SASHA NAUTA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A PIECE RECENTLY THAT SAID, "WILL I VF REALLY BE THE NEXT FRONTIER IN AMERICA'S CULTURE WARS?"

TELL US, HOW DID WE GET HERE, WHY IS IT A CULTURE WAR?

IT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR ALMOST 90,000 BABIES BEING BORN EVERY YEAR.

>> YEAH, HARI, THIS QUESTION WAS PARTLY RAISED BECAUSE IT'S A LINE THAT YOU WILL OFTEN HEAR FROM DEMOCRATS, SAYING, REPUBLICANS FIRST CAME FOR ABORTION, THEN THEY CAME FOR IVF, NEXT THEY'LL COME FOR BIRTH CONTROL.

AND SO, WE FELT IT WAS TIME TO DIG INTO THIS A BIT MORE.

IS THERE ANY TRUTH TO THIS STATEMENT?

AND IN SHORT, THERE IS.

NOT BECAUSE, AS YOU SAY, YOU KNOW, 90,000 KIDS A YEAR ARE BORN THANKS TO TECHNOLOGY.

IT IS WIDELY SUPPORTED BY, YOU KNOW, IT IS, I THINK, NEARLY 9 IN 10 AMERICANS ARE IN FAVOR OF IVF.

IT WOULD BE A HUGELY UNPOPULAR THING FOR REPUBLICANS TO GO AFTER.

BUT THE REASON WHY, YOU KNOW, IT IS ON THE TABLE, AND IT COULD BECOME AMERICA'S NEXT CULTURE WAR, IS BECAUSE IT IS A LOGICAL -- BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IVF IS A LOGICAL EXTENSION FROM BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH ABORTION.

PARTICULARLY THE SORT OF MOST ARDENT PARTS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN THIS CONCEPT THAT BASICALLY, FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION, A FETUS HAS THE SAME RIGHTS AS YOU AND I.

AND WE SAW THIS PLAY OUT IN ALABAMA EARLIER THIS YEAR, WHEN SUPREME COURT THERE MADE A RULING THAT, IN EFFECT, OVERNIGHT SUDDENLY LED TO A PANIC WHERE IVF CLINICS STOPPED PROVIDING IVF.

AND SO, YES, WE THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS STATEMENT, WE DON'T THINK IT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN TOMORROW, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY ON THE TABLE, YES.

>> LET'S FLUSH OUT THE KIND OF MORAL ARGUMENT AGAINST IT HERE.

IF YOU CAN CONSIDER LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION, WHY IS IVF, THE PROCESS OF BRINGING LIFE OUT INTO THE WORLD, GOING TO BE PROBLEMATIC?

>> SO, THE BASIC BIOLOGY HERE IS THAT FOR IVF, WHAT HAPPENS IS, YOU TAKE -- YOU TEND TO FERTILIZE A NUMBER OF EGGS, SO, A WOMAN TAKES MEDICATION TO STIMULATE THE PRODUCTION OF EGGS, HOPEFULLY YOU'LL HAVE, LIKE, TEN OR A DOZEN EGGS, YOU FERTILIZE THEM WITH SPERM AND YOU HOPEFULLY PRODUCE A NUMBER OF EMBRYOS.

MORE THAN YOU WOULD PLACE TO TRY TO HAVE A CHILD.

AND, AGAIN, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, AS A WOMAN, SAY THE FIRST EMBRYO TAKES, AND YOU'VE GOT NINE LEFT IN THE LAB, YOU MAY NOT, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY NOT WANT TEN CHILDREN IN TOTAL.

SO,EMBRYOS, AGAIN, FOR THOSE WHO ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO MAKE ENOUGH, BUT THERE'S ALSO EMBRYOS THAT WON'T PASS SO-CALLED PREGENETIC SCREENING.

THERE MIGHT BE PROBLEMS WITH THE EMBRYO.

SO, THE BASIC PROCESS VERY MUCH TENDS TO INVOLVE THE DESTRUCTION OR DISPOSAL OF EXCESS EMBRYOS, AND THAT'S THE CORE PROBLEM.

YOU'RE RIGHT, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO CAME OUT IN FAVOR OF IVF SAID, WELL, THERE'S NOTHING MORE PRO-LIFE THAN HELPING FAMILIES CREATE LIFE, BUT THERE IS A REAL TENSION HERE WITH THE CORE PRO-LIFE ARGUMENT THAT LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION.

>> WITH THE NOTION OF FETAL PERSONHOOD, WE'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF STATES IMPLEMENT LAWS CODIFYING THIS.

WHAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA?

>> WHAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA WAS THAT A NUMBER OF COUPLES WHO WERE GOING THROUGH IVF WERE VERY, VERY UNLUCKY IN THAT THEIR -- THEIR FROZEN 'EM BEE OWES WERE DESTROYED BY ACCIDENT.

AND THEY SUED, AND IN SUING, THEIR CASE MADE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT, WHICH MADE AN UNUSUAL RULING, BUT ACTUALLY A RULING WITH WHAT IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

THEY SAID, THIS CAN BE A WRONGFUL DEATH SUIT, BECAUSE THESE FROZEN EMBRYOS, THEY COUNT AS CHILDREN UNDER ALABAMA STATE LAW.

AND THE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT IS THAT IVF CLINICS WENT, WHOA, OKAY, HANG ON, THAT COULD MAKE US CRIMINALLY LIABLE FOR WRONGFUL DEATH.

NOT JUST IN THIS ACCIDENTAL DESTRUCTION, BUT FOR EVERYBODY'S IVF PROCEDURE.

>> RIGHT.

SO WHEN THE FERTIITY CLINICS IN ALABAMA DECIDED THIS LIABILITY WAS TOO MUCH AND THEY CLOSED, WHAT WAS THE STATE'S RESPONSE?

>> THE STATE GOT A LOT OF PHONE CALLS FROM OUT OF STATE AND GENERAL SUPPORTERS OF IVF, AND THEY RUSHED TO GET THROUGH A STOP-GAP LAW, ESSENTIALLY A SHIELD LAW THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE, I THINK ABOUT THREE WEEKS OR SO, AFTER, SO, THERE WAS THIS PAUSE IN TREATMENT, THEN THE STATE LEGISLATURE RUSHED THROUGH THIS SHIELD LAW, WHICH ESSENTIALLY GIVS IMMUNITY TO BOTH PATIENTS, AS WELL AS CLINICS, SO, IT'S A SHIELD FOR THE IVF SECTOR, AS WELL AS THOSE USING IT FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE PERSONHOOD OF THE IDEA THAT FETUSES HAVE RIGHTS, BUT THEY DIDN'T DEAL WITH THE UNDERLYING ISSUE, AND THAT'S A REAL -- THAT THREAD IS GOING TO COME BACK.

I THINK WE'LL HEAR ABOUT ALABAMA AGAIN.

>> SO, WHAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA, I MEAN, THIS MIGHT BE INSTRUCTIVE TO OUR AUDIENCE, IS THAT THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY REVERSE THE IDEA OF FETAL PERSONHOOD, YOU'RE SAYING THEY JUST CREATED A SHIELD, TAKING THE LIABILITY OUT OF THE HANDS, OR, OFF THE SHOULDERS OF THE IVF CLINICS AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE USING THEM, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THAT TWO OF THE COUPLES WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE INITIAL SUIT ARE ACTUALLY SAYING THAT THE SHIELD LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND SO, THEY'D LIKE THE SHIELD LAW ACTUALLY TO -- THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF.

SO, THE SHIELD LAW IS GOING TO BE CHALLENGED.

SO, THAT'S WHY I THINK IT MIGHT COME BACK.

AS YOU POINTED OUT, THE UNDERLYING BASIC PRINCIPLE THAT AN EMBRYO HAS THE SAME RIGHTS AS A CHILD HAS NOT BEEN DEALT WITH.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO THE REPUBLICANS THAT ARE STAUNCHLY PRO-LIFE, ARE THEY A BIT INTO A CORNER HERE?

ON THE ONE HAND, THEY DO AGREE WITH THE IDEA OF FETAL PERSONHOOD, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I'M SURE THEY HAVE CONSTITUENTS WHO ARE WANTING TO USE THIS TECHNOLOGY AND HAVE A BABY.

>> YES, THEY ARE BACKED IN A CORNER.

AND WE SAW, YOU KNOW, BACK IN FEBRUARY, WE SAW THEM STRUGGLING WITH THIS.

SAYING, I AM PRO-LIFE, I'M ALSO PRO-IVF.

IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.

WE KNOW, ACTUALLY GALLUP DID SOME GOOD POLLING ON THIS.

WE KNOW OVER 8 IN 10 AMERICANS THINK IVF IS MORALLY ACCEPTABLE, BUT ONLY -- ONLY ABOUT HALF OF AMERICANS THINK IT IS MORALLY ACCEPTABLE TO DESTROY THESE EXCESS EMBRYOS.

SO, THAT'S AN INCONSISTENT VIEW.

YOU CAN'T REALLY HAVE BOTH.

YET, SO FAR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HOLD BOTH VIEWS, BUT AS THIS ISSUE BECOMES MORE AND MORE POLITICAL, AND, YOU KNOW, AS BOTH PARTIES PUSH EACH OTHER ON BEING CLEARER ON WHAT THEIR CONSISTENT POSITION IS, THE HARDER IT BECOMES FOR REPUBLICANS TO TRY TO CONTINUE TO HOLD BOTH VIEWS.

>> NOW, THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID, LOOK, THIS SHOULD BASICALLY BE A STATES RIGHTS ISSUE, SORT OF JUST LIKE HE HAS WITH ABORTION, BUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THE NATIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE PARTY PLATFORM, THE PLANKS, IF YOU WILL, WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONVENTION?

DOES THIS CREATE ENOUGH OF A RIFT IN THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY, SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS IS INCONSISTENT WITH US?

>> THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY HAS ACTUALLY BEEN QUITE VOCAL WITH THEIR PROBLEMS WITH IVF.

WE SAW THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION LAST MONTH OVERWHELMINGLY ADOPT A RESOLUTION IN WHICH THEY -- THEY OPPOSED IVF AS CURRENTLY PRACTICED AND CALLED IT DEHUMANIZING.

THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS, SIMILAR, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.

SO, THERE'S -- THERE'S A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM THE PRO-LIFE SIDE ON REPUBLICANS TO -- TO HAVE A MORE MORALLY CONSISTENT POSITION ON THIS.

I DON'T THINK IVF WILL BE ENOUGH TO BREAK THIS COALITION, BUT I THINK THIS UNDERLYING ISSUE OF PERSONHOOD WILL COME BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND, IN FACT, YOU MENTIONED THE PARTY PLATFORM.

AS WE GET READY FOR THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, THE PARTY PLATFORM HAVE ADOPTED THE NEW LANGUAGE ON ABORTION, WHICH I KNOW HAS BEEN PRESENTED IN THE PRESS AS SORT OF A SOFTENING OF DONALD TRUMP'S POSITION ON -- ON ABORTION, AND THE REALITY, IT'S VERY HAZY LANGUAGE.

WE TALKED TO SEVERAL LEGAL SCHOLARS.

ALL OF WHOM SAY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO -- THEY'RE TRYING TO SQUARE THIS CIRCLE THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

OVER TIME, I FIND IT VERY HARD TO SEE HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CAN CONTINUE TO STAY IN SYNCH WITH THE DIRECTION THAT THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IS GOING.

>> AS WE HAVE THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT IVF LAWS, THERE DO SEEM TO BE PARALLELS IN HOW DIFFERENT STATE LEGISLATURES ARE DEALING WITH ACCESS TO ABORTION.

IF IT IS LEFT TO BE A STATES RIGHTS ISSUE, ARE THERE PARALLELS HERE BETWEEN HOW IVF, AS A TECHNOLOGY, WILL BE TREATED, HOW ABORTIONS, HOW ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION WILL BE TREATED, AS WELL?

>> THERE ARE DEFINITELY PARALLELS.

AND THOSE WHO WORK IN THE IVF FIELD RIGHT FROM THE MOMENT THAT ROE VERSUS WADE WAS OVERTURNED TWO YEARS AGO NOW, SAID, YOU KNOW, LOBBING ABORTION BACK TO THE STATES ALSO WILL PUT IVF ON THE TABLE.

SO, BY REMOVING THE PROTECTIONS OF ROE, IT HAS BEEN LEFT UP TO EVERY STATE TO START DEALING WITH THESE QUESTIONS OF, WHERE DOES LIFE BEGIN, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE MEDICAL PRACTICES IN OUR STATE?

SO, THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION WITH ABORTION.

I THINK THE BIG PARALLEL THAT YOU HEAR IVF PROVIDERS TALK ABOUT A LOT IS THAT THEY WORRY THAT IN CONSERVATIVE STATES OR STATES THAT ARE -- THAT ARE ANTI-ABORTION, PRO-LIFE, YOU WILL START TO SEE -- YOU WON'T SEE -- YOU WON'T SEE MANY BAN BANS, BUT YOU'LL SEE AN ERODING OF ACCESS.

AND WE SAW THAT DURING THE PROTECTIONS OF ROE.

YOU'LL REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, IN THEORY, ABORTION WAS LEGAL EVERYWHERE IN AMERICA, BUT IN PRACTICE, THERE WERE MANY STATES WHERE IT BECAME HARDER AND HARDER FOR WOMEN TO ACCESS ABORTION.

ALL SORTS OF EXTRA REGULATIONS WERE PUT IN PLACE THAT MADE IT HARDER AND HARDER TO ACCESS, AND THE BIG FEAR IS THAT YOU'LL SEE A SIMILAR CHIPPING AWAY OF -- OF ACCESS TO IVF, PERHAPS EVEN TO CONTRACEPTION IN SOME OF THESE SIMILAR STATES, AND, YEAH, THAT IS THE BIG FEAR, SO IF THAT'S BY REGULATION, HOW EMBRYOS CAN BE TREATED, HOW MANY YOU MIGHT BE ALLOWED TO CREATE FOR IVF, WHETHER YOU CAN FREEZE THEM, WHETHER YOU CAN DESTROY THEM, BUT -- WHETHER YOU CAN GENETICALLY TEST THEM.

BUT THERE'S ALSO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALSO THE KIND OF OF THE CHILLING ENVIRONMENT THAT'S BEEN CREATED DUE TO ABORTION BANS.

SO, WE HEARD FROM STATES WITH STRICT ABORTION BANS THAT THEY ARE STRUGGLING MORE AND MORE WITH GETTING OB-GYNs.

AGAIN, YOU CAN SEE A KNOCK-ON FOR FERTILITY DOCTORS.

SO, IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO SEE HOW IN SOME OF THESE STATES, EVEN IF, AS WE EXPECT, IVF WILL BROADLY REMAIN LEGAL, IT WILL BECOME HARDER AND HARDER TO ACCESS, IN A COUNTRY WHERE IT IS ALREADY VERY EXPENSIVE TO ACCESS IVF.

>> YEAH.

HEADING INTO THIS ELECTION CYCLE, IS THIS GOING TO BE ENOUGH OF AN ISSUE WHERE -- WE HAVE SEEN DEMOCRATS DEFINITELY MOBILIZE AROUND ABORTION ACCESS AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, RIGHT?

AND I WONDER, I MEAN, YOU SPENT SOME TIME IN ARIZONA FOR THIS STORY, WHAT -- WHAT WERE YOU SEEING ON THE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO MOBILIZING ON EITHER SIDE?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS -- THE BASIC IDEA THAT THE STATE IS GETTING IN THE WAY OF WOMEN AND FAMILIES IS, YOU KNOW, REPRODUCTIVE CHOICES, IS -- IS CLEARLY NOT SITTING WELL WITH THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

POM ING POLLING SHOWS THAT.

FOR ALL THE ISSUES THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, RIGHT?

FOR ABORTION, FOR IVF, AND FOR CONTRACEPTION.

WHAT I SAW -- AND, SORRY, TO YOUR QUESTION ON THE ELECTION, I THINK NET IT'S QUITE CLEAR WHO THIS HELPS.

IT HELPS DEMOCRATS.

THE REPUBLICAN POSITION ON THESE ISSUES IS NOT IN LINE WITH THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

AND WHAT I SAW IN ARIZONA, IN FACT, THE -- THE ARIZONANS, A FEW DAYS AGO, HANDED IN THE SIGNATURES FOR THEIR BALLOT INITIATIVE, AND THEY'VE MANAGED TO COLLECT, I BELIEVE, OVER 800,000 SIGNATURES, MOST IN THE STATE'S HISTORY, FOR THIS PETITION TO PROTECT ABORTION.

AND SO -- AND THEY ARE ONE OF MANY STATES THAT HAVE DONE THIS.

SO, IN NOVEMBER, WE WILL SEE A NUMBER OF STATES, INCLUDING FLORIDA, NEVADA, IF THESE SIGNATURES ARE -- IF ENOUGH OF THEM ARE VERIFIED IN ARIZONA, YOU KNOW, SWING STATES.

NOT JUST VOTING ON A PRESIDENT, BUT ALSO VOTING ON THEIR STATE'S CONSTITUTION AND IF IT SHOULD HAVE A PROTECTION TO ABORTION.

SO, THAT REALLY MATTERS.

THAT REALLY, REALLY MATTERS.

AND WHAT WAS INSPIRING TO SEE IN ARIZONA IS JUST HOW BROAD A COALITION THESE GRASS ROOTS MOVEMENTS ARE FINDING -- SPECIFICALLY COLLECTING SIGNATURES FROM ORDINARY ARIZONANS, AND I SAW A RANGE OF PEOPLE -- THIS IS NOT JUST -- THIS IS NOT JUST YOUR CLASSIC REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS PEOPLE SIGNING THEM.

IT'S LIB TARNS, IT'S, YOU KNOW, TRUMP VOTERS WHO ARE VERY ANGRY ABOUT THE STATE GETTING -- GETTING INTO THESE KIND OF ISSUES.

SO, IT DEFINITELY RESONATES.

IT WILL NET HELP DEMOCRATS, I GUESS THE BIG QUESTION IS, WILL IT HELP THEM ENOUGH?

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE CHOICE OF CANDIDATE WILL MATTER IN HOW THIS PLAYS OUT?

I MEAN, THE CURRENT UNCERTAINTY AROUND PRESIDENT BIDEN AND WHETHER HE'S GOING TO BE THE PARTY'S NOMINEE OR NOT, WITH THE ADVOCATES THAT YOU SPOKE TO, THEY'RE ON THE PRO-LIFE SIDE, THE IVF SIDE, DO THEY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> I THINK THAT THE CHOICE OF CANDIDATE IS A TOTALLY FAIR QUESTION.

I THINK THE ADVOCATES ARE NOT WILD ABOUT JOE BIDEN, ON THIS ISSUE.

HE'S NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THE WORD ABORTION.

THEY ALL TRACK WHETHER HE SAID IT.

THEY MUCH PREFER KAMALA HARRIS ON THIS ISSUE, WHO IS MORE COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THE SUBJECT.

IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, THOUGH.

BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S NOT THE ACTIVISTS THAT THE DEMS NEED TO WORRY ABOUT.

IT'S PROBABLY MORE THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE, WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF SOME ACCESS TO ABORTION, WHO WOULD NOT, YOU KNOW, CALL THEMSELVES SORT OF PART OF THE ABORTION POSITIVITY MOVEMENT, WHICH IS MORE ON THAT SIDE.

SO, IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.

THERE'S NO WAY THEY'RE GOING TO GO FOR ANYBODY -- IF JOE BIDEN ISN'T THE CANDIDATE, I FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE THE BASIC CREDENTIAL IS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE PRO-CHOICE, AND -- BUT WITHIN THAT, THERE'S A REAL BALANCING ACT.

DO YOU -- DO YOU GO FOR A CANDIDATE WH THE ACTIVIST WING WHO IS HAPPY WITH, WHO IS HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION AS BEING A NONSTIGMATIZED ISSUE, SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO APPROACH AND NOT REALLY TALK ABOUT TERM LIMITS, OR DO YOU GO FOR SOMEBODY WHO, STRANGELY JOE BIDEN ACTUALLY IS NOT THAT -- I PERSONALLY BELIEVE HE'S NOT THAT BAD A CANDIDATE, BECAUSE IN HIS DISCOMFORT, AND HE'S HAD AN EVOLUTION, RIGHT, IN TERMS OF WHERE HE STANDS ON THE ISSUE, HE'S PROBABLY ACTUALLY VOICING THE DISCOMFORT OF QUITE A LOT OF SORT OF MIDDLE AMERICA.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> A STRONG REMINDER, INDEED, OF ALL THE IMPORTANT ISSUES AT STAKE IN THIS YEAR'S U.S. ELECTION, AND THE WEIGHT IT CARRIES IN THE FIGHT TO UPHOLD WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

>>> FINALLY, A FUTURE ADDITION TO THE SOCCER HALL OF FAME.

SPANISH PRODIGY YAMAL HAS BECOME THE YOUNGEST EVER GOAL SCORER IN THE MEN'S EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP, AT JUST 16 YEARS OLD.

WHO COULD HAVE MISSED HIS DARING STRIKE LAST NIGHT THAT LANDED SPAIN A SPOT IN ITS FIRST FINAL SINCE 2012?

EARNING YAMAL COMPARISONS TO THE GREATEST, INCLUDING LIONEL MESSI.

THEIR PATHS HAVE ALREADY CROSSED.

VIRAL IMAGES ON SOCIAL MEDIA SHOW BABY YAMAL ALONGSIDE MESSI IN A CHARITY CALENDAR BACK IN 2007.

WHETHER IT'S DESTINY OR NOT, THE TEEN STAR WILL BE A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH IN SUNDAY'S FINAL.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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