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♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> WE LOVE TRUMP!
WE LOVE TRUMP!
>> TRUMP RIDING HIGH WITH J.D.
VANCE BY HIS SIDE.
WHAT THIS GOP TICKET WOULD MEAN FOR THE WORLD.
COULD VOLCKER, FORMER U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO NATO JOINS ME.
>> CONNECTIONS WITH OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING DOWN.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I ASKED YOU TO GO TO CHURCH?
HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU GO TO A DINNER PARTY?
DOWN.
>> THE UNITED STATES OF LONELINESS.
I ASKED RENOWNED POLITICAL SCIENTIST ROBERT PUTNAM HOW IT COULD LEAD TO POLITICS.
THE PLATFORM PROCESS THAT WE THINK ABOUT THAT HAPPENS AT THESE TYPE OF CONVENTIONS HAS BEEN TOTALLY UP ENDED BY TRUMP ALREADY.
>> FROM MILWAUKEE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" STAN HERNDON TALKS ABOUT THE RNC AT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT.
♪♪♪ ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TOTE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
DAY TWO OF THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IN WISCONSIN HAS WRAPPED UP AND A SENSE OF DREAD HAS DESCENDED HERE ACROSS THE POND SINCE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP NAMED AS HIS RUNNINGMATE THE ULTRA ISOLATIONIST SENATOR J.D.
VANCE.
TRUMP, HIS EAR BANDAGED HAD BEEN GREETED LIKE A HERO AT THE MILWAUKEE CONVENTION CENTER ON HIS FIRST DAY, AND IT WAS HIS FIRST APPEARANCE SINCE THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT THIS WEEKEND.
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, THE CROWDS CHEERED AND CHANTED, WE LOVE TRUMP.
IN A MOMENT WE'LL DIVE INTO THE GLOBAL IMPLICATIONS OF THIS NEW GOP TICKET, BUT FIRST LET'S GO TO CORRESPONDENT JEFF ZELL ME AT THE CONVENTION FOR THE VERY LATEST.
I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST, JEFF.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
WHY DO YOU THINK IT WAS J.D.
VANCE?
IT DOESN'T BRING ANYTHING IF TRUMP WANTED TO EXPAND THE BASE.
HE'S A WHITE MAN.
>> CHRISTIANE, IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
I THINK WHAT IT BRINGS, THOUGH, IS AN EXTENSION OF TRUMPISM.
AN EXTENSION OF THE TRUMP BRANDS OF POLITICS FROM THIS POPULOUS STRAIN THAT IS COURSING THROUGH DOMESTIC POLITICS IN THE UNITED STATES AND ALSO AN ISOLATIONIST STRAIN, AS WELL.
HE IS A CONTINUATION OF THE DONALD TRUMP ERA.
SO I THINK THAT IS WHAT FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, TALKING TO HIS ADVISERS, WAS LOOKING FOR.
YES, THEIR CHEMISTRY IS GOOD AND YES, IT'S SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T THREATEN HIM IN THE SHORT TERM.
THE LONGER TERM QUESTION IS A BIGGER ONE BECAUSE IMMEDIATELY, SHOULD THEY WIN ELECTION IN NOVEMBER, J.D.
VANCE WILL BE THINKING IMMEDIATELY ABOUT 2028.
THAT WILL BE A COMPLICATION, BUT IN THE SHORTER TERM.
NO, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY BRING HIM SUBURBAN VOTERS LIKE A NIKKI HALEY MIGHT HAVE.
THAT'S WHAT SOME REPUBLICANS HERE WERE HOPING FOR, REALLY AN EXPANSION OF THE BASE.
WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THE UNITY MESSAGE THAT DONALD TRUMP CLAIMS TO WANT TO BRING HERE.
THIS DID VERY LITTLE FOR THAT, BUT I THINK IT'S A SIGN THAT TRUMP IS DOUBLING DOWN ON TRYING TO FOCUS ON SOME OF THESE MIDWESTERN STATES LIKE PENNSYLVANIA, MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN TURNING OUT HIS OWN VOTERS RATHER THAN TRYING TO EXPAND TO PERHAPS WIN OVER SOME OF THE ONES WHO ARE STILL SKEPTICAL OF DONALD TRUMP.
>> YEAH.
INCLUDING, WAS THERE SENATOR TIM SCOTT, THE BLACK SENATOR FROM SOUTH CAROLINA.
THERE WAS MARCO RUBIO, THE HISPANIC SENATOR FROM FLORIDA.
ALL OF THOSE GROUPS DIDN'T GET PICKED WHICH IS REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING FOR PEOPLE TRYING TO READ THE TEA LEAVES AND I TALKED ABOUT THE ISOLATIONISM OF J.D.
VANCE AND PEOPLE REMEMBER HOW THEY DID NOT MEET WITH VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY AND THAT'S CAUSING SOME WORRY THAT HE DOESN'T THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE AID TO UKRAINE.
HOW IS THAT GOING TO GO DOWN IN THE GOP WHICH BROADLY SUPPORTS UKRAINE AID?
>> CHRISTIANE, WHAT WE CAN SEE, YEAR BY YEAR IT IS BECOMING CLEAR NOW IT IS MORE SO.
THIS IS NOT RONALD REAGAN'S REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THIS IS DONALD TRUMP'S REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE ISOLATIONIST STRAIN IS FIRST AND FOREMOST AMONG THE FOREIGN POLICY.
SO THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DIVIDES.
FOR ALL OF THE TALK ABOUT UNITY HERE AND THERE ARE UNITY BEHIND DONALD TRUMP AND THERE ARE DEEP DIVISIONS ABOUT FOREIGN AID FIRST AND FOREMOST.
SENATOR MITCH McCONNELL WHO HAS BEEN A BIG PROPONENT FOR AID TO UKRAINE HE WAS BOOED QUITE LOUDLY.
IT WASN'T A SURPRISE THAT HE WOULDN'T GET A WARM WELCOME, BUT I WAS A LITTLE SURPRISED AT HOW LOUD THE BOOS WERE.
THIS IS IS SIGNIFICANT IN THE TRUMP ERA AND J.D.
VANCE SOLIDIFIES THE ISOLATIONIST STRAND IN THE PARTY.
HE'S A YOUNG SENATOR.
HE'S NOT EVEN 40 YEARS OLD.
HE WILL BE BY NOVEMBER.
SHOULD THEY WIN THIS IS TAKING MANY YEARS OR PERHAPS A DECADE OR MORE FROM THIS, BUT WE WILL SEE HOW THOSE DIFFERENCES RESOLVE THEMSELVES IN THE CAMPAIGN.
PRESIDENT BIDEN USES THAT AS A WAY IN HERE, BUT IT IS UNCLEAR THAT FOREIGN POLICY IS ON TOP OF MIND OF AMERICAN VOTERS.
>> ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU CONSIDER, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR POLITICS ARE THAT AN ELBOW OF THE PARTY IS BOOED.
IT CERTAINLIES WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY AND HOW CAN THEY UNIFY ANY OTHER WAY THAT TRUMP LIKES TO BE AND I UNDERSTOOD THAT WAS THE DIRECTIVE TO DELEGATES AND OTHERS SPEAKING TO JUST SHOW A UNITY MESSAGE, BUT WE HAVE TO ASK YOU A DIFFERENT QUESTION BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SOME NEWS THAT HAS JUST COME IN AND LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT OF IT.
IT REGARDS THE CONVENTION OF SENATOR BOB MENENDEZ OF NEW JERSEY.
A JURY HAS FOUND HIM GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS IN HIS FEDERAL CORRUPTION TRIAL.
THAT'S 16 COUNTS.
WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT AT THIS TIME?
CHRISTIANE, IT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT, FOUND GUILTY ON 16 COUNTS AND THIS IS THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.
THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HAS HAD ACCESS AND HAS CONTINUED TO RECEIVE CLASSIFIED BRIEFINGS.
THIS IS VERY EXTRAORDINARY BUT FOR THE FACT THAT A FOREIGN PRESIDENT WAS ALSO CONVICTED JUST A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, THIS WOULD BE INCREDIBLY UNUSUAL AND NOW IT SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF THE SIGN OF THE TIMES, AND IT PUSHES BACK ON THE NOTION THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS SIMPLY OUT TO GET DONALD TRUMP AND THIS WAS A SENATOR FOUND GUILTY OF 16 COUNTS AND I THINK IT E RHODESS THE ATTEMPT IN TERMS OF THE CORRUPTIONS AND ALLEGATIONS IF YOU LIKE.
WILL HE HAVE TO RESIGN HIS SEAT, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THE SENATOR HAS BEEN CHARGED, BUT THE FIRST TIME HE'S BEEN CONVICTED OF THIS.
IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARILY SERIOUS COUNT, THE BRIBERY ALLEGATIONS, ET CETERA.
>> OKAY.
>> IT'S HARDLY A ONE OFF IN THIS POLITICAL SEASON HERE IN THE U.S. >> JUST HEARING YOU SAY THAT IS ALREADY SORT OF MIND BLOWING.
IT'S A SIGN OF THE TIMES, AND WE'LL DIVE A LITTLE MORE DEEPLY INTO THAT LATER IN THE PROGRAM.
JEFF ZELL ME, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
>> TRUMP'S CHOICE OF THE 39-YEAR-OLD J.D.
RANS IS BEING WATCHED CLOSELY OVER HERE.
VANCE IS SEEN AS ONE OF THE MOST ISOLATIONIST AND NO FRIEND OF KYIV.
>> WOOP ONE EU POLITICAL SAYS HE'S ARGUED AGAINST ZELLEN SKY AT THIS CONSEQUENCES FOR THE ALLY OP, THE FORMER U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO NATO AND WAS SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
I CAN START BY ASKING YOU, KURT.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'LL BE ABLE TO ANSWER THIS, BUT THE NOTION THAT IT IS A SIGN OF THE TIMES THAT ALL THESE CONSEQUENTIAL POLITICIANS INCLUDING REPUBLICAN NOMINEE ARE CONVICTED OF CRIMES AND FELONIES.
I MEAN, CAN YOU JUST RELATE TO THAT?
>> YEAH.
I THINK HIS CASE IS DIFFERENT.
SENATOR MEN ENDES, WHAT WE HEARD WITH GOLD BARS AND MONEY IN COAT POCKETS IN HIS CLOSET, THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY.
WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, THIS IS PAYOFFS TO STORMY DANIELS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT HER TALKING ABOUT HAVING SEX WITH HIM DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY ALREADY KNEW AND EVERYBODY KNEW THAT HE PAID THAT.
HE DIDN'T EVEN DENY PAYING THAT.
VERY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES THERE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARILY A SIGN OF THE TIMES MEANING THAT WE'LL SEE MORE AND MORE AND MORE OF THIS, BUT YOU DO SEE A TENDENCY TOWARD USING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO TALK AT LEAST ABOUT POLITICAL OPPONENTS.
YOU HAVE THE DEMOCRATS REFERRING NOW TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AS SAYING OH, HE'S A CONVICTED FELON, AND YOU HAVE THE REPUBLICANS GOING AFTER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS SON HUNTER BIDEN NOW ALSO A CONVICTED FELON.
IT BECOMES A PART OF THE POLITICAL DIALOGUE IN A WAY.
I'M NOT SURE IT PORTENDS ANYTHING ABOUT THE FUTURE.
>> HE'S RACKED UP LEGAL VICTORIES BY THE MOST SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AND INDICTMENTS AND CHARGES HAVING BEEN DELAYED OR DISMISSED ALTOGETHER, BUT LET'S MOVE ON.
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, FORMER NATO AMBASSADOR, YOU BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY IN ENSURING THAT PUTIN DOESN'T WIN, ENSURING THAT UKRAINE DOES SURVIVE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS TICKET WILL DO AND HOW DO YOU REACT BY SAYING THIS IS A DISASTER FOR KYIV?
>> THE FIRST ADVICE I WOULD HAVE FOR ALL OUR EUROPEAN FRIENDS AND ALLIES IS DON'T REACT WITH EMOTION AND DON'T PUSH BACK AND DON'T BE SO NEGATIVE BETWEEN TRUMP AND J.D.
VANCE BECAUSE THAT WILL ONLY CAUSE A COUNTER I WOULD SAY DON'T MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT POLICY WOULD BE.
EUROPE SHOULD DO ITS OWN HOMEWORK ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IN EUROPE AND WHAT THEY'RE PREPARED TO DO AND THEN BE PRO ACTIVE AND LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO GET DONE AND PROPOSE THINGS TO THE U.S. THAT EUROPE WOULD WANT TO DO.
THAT'S A MORE PRAGMATIC WAY OF HANDLING THINGS AND AS FOR WHAT THE SELECTION MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY I DON'T THINK IT MEANS VERY MUCH.
TRUMP IS GOING TO BE PRESIDENT AND WE KNOW TRUMP, AND I'VE SEEN HIM IN DIFFERENT LIGHTS AND I DON'T THINK IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
>> THE SELECTION IS MORE FOR OHIO, MICHIGAN -- TRUEING TO A VOTE THE VOTING BASE.
THE THING THAT WAS SOLIDIFIED AND WE GOT IT FROM J.D.
VANCE THIS YOU'RE IS EUROPE DOING MORE AND THE UNITED STATES DOING LESS MEANING THEY FEEL THE U.S. HAS DONE MORE THAN ITS SHARE.
IT'S DONE TOO MUCH AND WE NEED TO PUSH EUROPE TO SHARE A BIGGER SHARE OF THE BURDEN.
THAT'S NOT THAT OBJECTIONABLE.
IN FACT, MANY EUROPEANS SAY THE SAME THING, AND WHEN IT COMES TO UKRAINE IT WAS ACTUALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO GAVE POLITICAL COVER TO SPEAKER JOHNSON WHEN THEY PUSHED TO GET THAT SUPPLEMENTAL AID PACKAGE THROUGH THE CONGRESS.
IT WAS DELAYED FOR SIX MONTHS OVER A SERIES OF OTHER ISSUE, AND WHEN THEY FINALLY PUSHED IT THROUGH.
IT WASN'T NECESSARILY AS DIRE AS SOME OF THE COMMENTARY WOULD PICK IT OUT TO BE.
>> LISTEN, YOU'RE RIGHT.
A LOT OF EUROPEANS ARE SAYING THAT CERTAINLY THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN PENNSYLVANIA AND MAYBE EVEN BEFORE THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY BAKING IN THE NOTION THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL BE PRESIDENT AGAIN AND THEY HAVE TO LEARN TO WORK WITH HIM INCLUDING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
WE HAVE TO WORK WITH HIM.
WHEN YOU SAY REACT EMOTIONALLY, EUROPE IS IN THE VICE GRIP OF OF A POTENTIAL PUTIN EXPANSION.
SO IT'S NOT EMOTIONAL FOR THEM.
IT'S ACTUALLY TERRITORIAL AND REALLY IMPORTANT, AND SO I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THEY NEED ASSURANCE, FOR -- THAT TRUMP WILL BE PRESIDENT IF HE WENS, LOOK, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DEFEND YOU IF YOU DON'T PAY UP.
THAT'S ONE THING AND THE OTHER THING IS IT WAS TRUMP WHO TOLD THE HOUSE TO DELAY, DELAY, DELAY THIS AID AND THEN HE CAME ONBOARD AFTER HE, AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL, BETTER THAN ME, WAS PERSUADED BY A LOT OF PEOPLE.
SO I GUESS, AGAIN, YES, EUROPE AND EVERYBODY IS TIRED OF THIS WAR, BUT HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO END?
>> RIGHT.
SEVERAL THINGS HERE AND LET'S TAKE THEM IN PIECES.
THE WAR IN EUROPE, RUSSIA'S WAR AGAINST UKRAINE WHICH IS THE LARGEST WAR IN EUROPE SINCE WORLD WAR II.
THAT IS SERIOUS BUSINESS, IT IS A REAL PROBLEM AND RUNS A GREAT RISK OF ESCALATING INTO A WIDER WAR IF IT'S NOT STOPPED.
A LOT OF WHAT WE HEAR FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RIGHT NOW IS ON NOT DOING THINGS THAT WOULD ESCALATE BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT A WIDER WAR.
MY OWN VIEW IS THAT WE ACTUALLY NEED TO DO MORE TO DEFEAT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE IN ORDER TO PREVENT THAT WIDER WAR.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WOULD BE A POINT OF REFERENCE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL BE AFGHANISTAN.
IF YOU REMEMBER HE WANTED TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
HE STARTED THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE TALIBAN AND KEPT URGING THE U.S. TO GET OUT, BUT HE NEVER ACTUALLY PULLED THE TRIGGER ON GETTING OUT BECAUSE HE WAS BRIEFED THAT IF YOU DO IT WILL BE A CATASTROPHE.
WE SAW IT PLAY OUT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WHERE WE PULLED OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AND IT WAS A CATASTROPHE.
SO LOOKING NOW AT UKRAINE THIS IS A CAUTIONARY TALE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.
DON'T MAKE UKRAINE YOUR AFGHANISTAN.
DON'T LET THIS FAILURE -- DON'T LET THIS BECOME A FAILURE ON YOUR WATCH.
>> I THINK IT WILL TAKE, AND YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP EXCLUDE AND THEEC ELECTED LEADER OF AFGHANISTAN.
SO BY YOUR RECKONING NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THEY COULD NEGOTIATION WITH AND I DON'T THINK SO.
THE LESSON FROM THAT EXPERIENCE IS I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHERE THIS POINTS.
INDEED THE EMPHASIS YOU GET FROM TRUM AND VANCE, AND IN ORDER TO END THE WAR.
>> VANCE HAS SAID SOME REALLY WEIRD THING, HE CALLED BRITAIN AN ISLAMIST STATE.
I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS A DEEP KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY, SO I THINK PEOPLE ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT THIS IS THE FIRST MOVE INTERNATIONALLY, KIND OF THAT HAD INTERNATIONAL IMPLICATIONS AT THE CONVENTION, BUT THE OTHER QUESTION IS HE'S VERY GOOD FRIENDS WITH THE ORBAN CAMP.
AS YOU KNOW, PRIME MINISTER ORBAN, VERY RIGHT WING, VERY CONSERVATIVE AND NO FRIEND OF UKRAINE, BELIEVES IN PUTIN AND DOESN'T GIVE AID TO UKRAINE AND ORBAN'S CHIEF POLITICAL ADVISER TWEETED A PICTURE WITH HIM AND VANCE SAYING, TRUMP, THAT'S JUST WHAT WE NEED.
HOW SHOULD EUROPE THINK ABOUT THIS?
YES, THEY HAVE TO PONY UP AND PEA MORE AND DO MORE.
>> HUGH HOW DO I DEAL WITH AN ISOLATIONIST AGO GROUP.
>>> WHAT WOW YOU SO AN ARPGS ALIGN WITH THE RIGHT IF THE ON ABOUT A LOT OF ISSUES THEY ARE VERY MUCH AT ODDSES WITH WHAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE DOING.
MOST IMPORTANT IS CHINA WHERE ORBAN HAS DESCRIBED HUNGARY AS OPEN FOR BUSINESS AND CHINA'S BEST FRIEND IN EUROPE.
THE U.S.
UNDER A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IF HE'S RE-ELECTED IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY TOUGH STANCE TOWARD CHINA AND WOULD EXPECT HUNGARY TO DO THE SAME.
THESE ARE POLITICAL ALIGNMENTS BECAUSE OF LEFT, RIGHT OR DOMESTIC POLITICS, BUT I DON'T THINK THE FOREIGN POLICIES ARE REALLY GOING TO ALIGN THAT MUCH.
>> YOU BRING UP CHINA HE'S MADE ALL SORTS OF STATEMENTS INCLUDING REFLY PROTECTIONIST STAPLES AROUND THE WORLD, BUT TO CHINA.
WHETHER IT'S CHINA OR OTHERS, IT WILL POSE.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO DO FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?
>> IN THE SHORT TERM SELL RAISE THE COST OF GOODS COMING FROM CHINA, AT LEAST CERTAIN GOODS LIKE ELECTRONIC VEHICLES, FOR EXAMPLE.
HE'S GOING TO BE TARGETING THINGS IN ORDER TO PREVENT THEM FROM COMING INTO THE U.S. MARK.
THAT WILL HAVE A SHORT-TERM IMPACT OF THOSE GOODS AND PREVENTING PRICES.
LAUNCHING TARIFFS ALSO RETURNS IN RETALIATION WHICH HURTS THE ABILITY OF THE U.S. TO EXPORT AND FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO BENEFIT FROM THAT.
SO IF WE START DOWN A ROAD TARIFFS AND AN ESCALATION OF OF A TRADE WAR THAT CAN GET OUT OF HAND.
I HOPE THAT WHAT TRUMP WOULD HAVE IN MIND WOULD BE A SHOT ACROSS THE BOUGH IN ORDER TO TRY TO GET SOME BALANCE IN TRADE, BUT IF IT GOES DOWN THE MANY, MANY TARIFFS IN MANY, MANY COUNTRIES IT CAN END UP DAMAGING THE ECONOMY.
>> WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT GROWING ECONOMIES AND DEFENSE SPENDING, ET CETERA.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT J.D.
VANCE SAID ABOUT THIS ISSUE WHEN HE WAS AT MUNICH.
>> IT'S VERY HARD.
THE JUXTAPOSITION BETWEEN THE IDEA THAT PUTIN POSES AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO EUROPE COMPARED AGAIN, AGAINST THE FACT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE OUR ALLIES TO SPEND 2% OF GDP.
THOSE IDEAS ARE VERY MUCH INTENTIONED.
I DO NOT THINK THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO PUTIN AND TO THE EXTEND THAT HE IS THAT SUGGESTS THAT EUROPE HAS TO TAKE A MORE AGGRESSIVE ROLE IN SECURITY.
THAT'S NUMBER ONE.
>> MOST PEOPLE DO THINK HE IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, BUT ON THE ISSUE OF DEFENSE SPENDING WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WILL ANY BECAUSE EUROPEANS AFTER THE FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION, THEY DID DECREASE THEIR DEFENSE SPENDING AND UNLIKE RUSSIA WHO HAS TURNED IT INTO A DEFENSE ECONOMY, EUROPEANS HAVE STRUGGLED TO DO THAT.
HOW DO YOU SEE THIS ACTUALLY RAMPING UP EVEN WITH THE BEST WILL IN THE WORLD?
>> WE'VE SEEN PROGRESS ALREADY.
WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ELECTED IN 2016, THERE WERE THREE COUNTRIES SPEEPDING 2% OR MORE.
DESPITE HAVING DONE SO MULTIPLE TIMES INCLUDING THE SUMMIT IN 2013.
TODAY WE HAVE 23 COUNTRIES WHICH ARE SPENDING 32 ON DEFENSE, AND WE ARE SEEING THAT IS NOT ENOUGH, NOT THERE WERE NEEP 9% WILL BE TOO LATE AND THE TREND LINE IS PRESIDENT AND YOU WILL SEE MORE AND MORE FROM THE UNITED STATES PARTICULARLY IN IT'S PRESIDENT TRUMP ON EUROPEAN DEFENSE SPENDING AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT UKRAINE THEY'LL WANT TO SEE MORE BALANCE ON THAT, AS WELL.
THE U.S. IS PROVIDING MORE THAN HALF OF MILITARY AID THERE AND THEY'LL WANT TO SEE THAT EUROPE IS SPENDING MORE ON THE AMMUNITION AND SO FORTH FOR UKRAINE.
>> KURT VOLCKER, AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.
>>> SO WHAT ABOUT THE POST-SHOOTING CALLS FOR CALLS FOR UNITY AND COOLING DOWN DIVISIVE RHETORIC?
AMERICA HAS NEVER SEENMORE DIVIDED WITH THE REPUBLICANS COALESCING AROUND TRUMP IF HE WINS A SECOND TERM.
HOW DOES A FRACTURED NATION ATTEMPT TO REUNITE?
IS IT EACH POSSIBLE?
>> IF ANYONE HAS ANSWERS IT MAY BE ROBERT PUTNAM.
HIS BOOK "BOWLING ALONE IN CHECK'S PARTICIPATION AND WARNED IN OUR TRUST CIVIC INSTUGS AND EACH OTHER.
A NEW JOUCHL DO YOU MEANRY TACK US THROUGH BUT NAME'S REPS. >> HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU GO TO CHURCH?
DOWN.
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO TO A DENNER PARTY?
DOWN.
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO TO A CLUB MEETING?
IN DECADES, ALL OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN AMERICA HAS VANISHED AND IT'S EQUIVALENT TO SAY HALF OF THE ROADS IN AMERICA JUST DISAPPEARED.
>> ROBERT PUTNAM JOINS THE SHOW FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, ROBERT PUTNAM.
IT'S REALLY AN INCREDIBLY TIMELY DISCUSSION OF YOUR THEORIES AND TO SEE THIS FILM.
I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU SINCE WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND, SINCE ALSO THE COLLAPSE, IT SEEMS OF THE WHOLE BIDEN SITUATION.
HOW DO YOU RELATE ALL OF THAT TO YOUR WORK?
>> WELL, THANKS FIRST OF ALL FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.
YES.
THE VERY LARGE PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" OVER THE WEEKEND, WELL BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT I SAID, ECHOING A WOMAN NAMED HANNAH ARENT WHO IS PROBABLY THE MOST -- OF THE HOLOCAUST AND I SAID LONELY YOUNG MEN ARE VERY LIKELY TO BE -- FIND THEMSELVES UNMOORED FROM OTHER SOCIAL CONNECTIONS AND EITHER ATTRACTEDED VIOLENCE.
IT WAS TRUE AS HE SAID AND IT WAS TRUE THAT THE MOST VIOLENT RECRUITS TO THE NAZI PARTY WERE DISCONNECTED YOUNG GERMANS, MEN, AND IT'S TRUE.
I DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS PREDICTING THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT OVER THE WEEKEND, BUT IT WAS BEFORE THAT THAT I HAD SAID THAT WE'RE SUFFERING AS A COUNTRY FROM THIS ISOLATION AND LONELINESS OF -- OF EVERYBODY, OF COURSE, BUT YOUNG PEOPLE AND, SPECIALLY YOUNG MEN.
>> SORRY.
I JUST WANTED TO BUILD ON THAT BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT SOCIAL CAPITAL WHICH MEANS CONNECTION, I THINK.
>> YES.
>> IS HOW YOU DEFINE IT.
>> YES.
>> AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE RELATIVE DECREASE IN KECKS AND THE SHIFTING KINDS OF CONNECTIONS.
YOU TALK ABOUT BRIDGING SOCIAL CAPITAL ANDENCE PLAIN THOSE AND HOW THEY'RE MANIFESTED TODAY.
>> BRIDGING SOCIAL CAPITAL SIMPLY MEANS MY TIES TO OTHER PEOPLE JUST LIKE ME.
MY TIE TO WHITE ELDERLY -- BONN THE SO MY WHITE, MALE, ELDERLY PROFESSORS, MAYBE A DIFFERENT RACE OR POLITICAL PARTY, THAT'S -- THE PEOPLE WHO WHEN YOU'RE SICK BRING YOU THE CHICKEN SOUP ARE LIKELY TO AFFECT YOUR CAPITAL AND BONDING IS FOR BRIDGING SOCIAL CAPITAL AND THAT'S JUST MY JARGON FOR SAYING UNLESS OUR SOCIAL CONNECTIONS MAKE IT EASY TO WALK IN THE SHOES OF SOMEBODY ELSE IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO PULL THIS COUNTRY TOGETHER AND THIS IS THE FINDING OF MY WORK AND OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK.
THERE'S BEEN A CATASTROPHIC DECLINE IN THOSE KINDS OF TIES, THE KINDS THAT ONCE UPON A TIME WOULD CONNECT US TO PEOPLE OF A GENERATION OR A DIFFERENT CLASS OR WHATEVER, ESPECIALLY A DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTY.
THOSE HAVE TENDED TO WANE EVEN MORE RAPIDLY THAN OUR TIES TO PEOPLE JUST LIKE US, AND THAT HAS SET US UP FOR POLAR TOO MANY OF -- SOME PEOPLE USE THE LANGUAGE OF ECHO CHAMBERS OR ARE THEY PEOPLE LIKE US OR PEOPLE OTHER THAN US, PEOPLE UNLIKE US?
>> PROFESSOR, WALK US THROUGH A LITTLE BIT OF THE HISTORY OF THESE KINDS OF TIES.
I THINK YOU BOWLING ALONE, YOU TALK ABOUT AT A CERTAIN TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY PEOPLE JOINED ALL SORTS OF CLUBS OR CHURCH GROUPS OR LIBRARY GROUPERS ON WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, SPORTS, THE WHOLE LOT, AND NOW NOT SO MUCH.
SO WALK US THROUGH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY THAT SORT OF EBB AND FLOW OF THIS TO NOW.
>> I'M VERY GLAD YOU ASKED IN THAT WIDER FRAMEWORK BECAUSE ABOUT 125 YEARS AGO RIGHT NOW AMERICA WAS IN THE SAME PICKLE THAT WE ARE NOW, AMERICA WAS A VERY FRAGMENTED AND SOCIALLY DISCONNECTED STATE AND VERY POLARIZED POLITICALLY AND OUR POLITICS WERE TRIBAL IN THAT PERIOD AND WE WERE VERY UNEQUAL ECONOMICALLY JUST AS YOU ARE NOW AND NOW MANY PEOPLE SAY WE'RE IN THE SECOND GILDED AGE AND OUR CULTURE WAS FOCUSSED IN BEGINNING OF 1900 AND IT WAS VERY FOCUSED ON ME, I, I, I AND NOT FOCUSED ON WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON AND THEN IN ABOUT TEN YEARS, ROUGHLY SPEAKING, THOSE -- WE, THAT IS A GROUP OF YOUNGER AMERICANS WERE ABLE TO TURN THOSE TRENDS AROUND.
I DON'T MEAN IT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT.
IT DIDN'T, IT TOOK A DECADE OR TWO, BUT GRADUALLY IN THE '50s AND '60s WE GOT LESS ISOLATED, A LITTLE LESS POLARIZED AND UNEQUAL AND A LITTLE MORE OF THE SENSE THAT WE WERE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER AND THEN THERE WAS A TURN AND THE LAST 50 YEARS WE'VE GONE DOWNHILL.
THE LAST 50 YEARS AND IT'S NOT JUST IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, WE'VE BECOME MORE POLARIZED AND MORE SPECIALLY DISCONNECTED AND MORE FOCUSED ON I.
THAT'S RELL VAND, AND THAT WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE OF YOUNG MEAN AND GENERAL.
AT THE TIME IT WAS PART OF THE BOY CLUB AND YOUNG MEN, DISCONNECTED JUST AS THEY ARE NOW AND TO SOME EXTENT YOUNG WOMEN, BUT IT'S MOSTLY A BOY PROBLEM, THEY WERE CAUSING HAVOC JUST AS THEY ARE NOW AND THEN THIS IS THE REALLY INTERESTING POINT.
IN ABOUT FIVE YEARS BETWEEN 1905 AND 1910 ALMOST ALL OF THE MAJOR KIDS' ORGANIZATIONS IN AMERICA WERE FOUNDED.
THE SCOUTS, BOTH THE BOY SCOUTS AND THE GIRL SCOUTS AND THE CAMPFIRE GIRLS AND THE GIRLS CLUBS AND BOYS CLUBS AND BIG BROTHER, BIG SISTER.
I MEAN, ALL THOSE THINGS HAPPENED RIGHT IN THAT PERIOD.
WHY?
BECAUSE PEOPLE AT THE TIME OR REFORMERS AT THAT TIME UNDERSTOOD THAT KIDS NEED MENTORS.
THEY NEED COACHES.
THEY NEED TEACHERS AND THAT WAS MISSING THEN AND EVENTUALLY THEY CORRECTED IT AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT'S MISSING NOW.
THAT'S THE CORE OF WHAT I WANT TO SAY.
OUR KIDS ESPECIALLY, THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE TIES.
>> SO I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF THE FILM, THE DOCUMENTARY WHICH IS CALLED JOET JOIN OR DIE WET "O THIS ISSUE NO, POSSIBLE MENTORS AND TIES AGAIN.
>> THERE'S WHAT'S CALLED SPECIFIC RECIPROCITY WHICH MEANS IF YOU'RE NICE TO ME I'LL BE NICE TO YOU, BUT MUCH MORE POWERFUL IS THE CONTEXT OF LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE CONNECTING WITH ONE ANOTHER IS I'M GOING TO BE NICE TO YOU JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE IN THIS COMMUNITY AND YOU'RE LIKELY TO BE NICE TO ME.
WELL, THAT'S A HUGE DEAL.
IF YOU CAN HAVE GENERALIZED RECIPROCITY IN A COMMUNITY, THAT COMMUNITY CAN BE ENORMOUSLY MORE PROTECTED BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE CONSTANTLY CHECKING UP ON ONE ANOTHER.
SO IT IS SO INTERESTING, WHICH AND WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT THE MENTORS AND HOW PEOPLE FIGURED OUT THE REFORMERS AND THAT'S WHAT'S NEEDED.
WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW WHICH IS ACTING AGAINST RECIPROCITY AND MUCH MORE IN SORT OF MOVING PEOPLE TO ISOLATION AND INDIVIDUALISM, EXACTLY THE ME, ME, ME.
WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE GOING?
WHERE ARE THESE YOUNG PEOPLE GOING?
WHO ARE THEY FOLLOWING?
WHO ARE THEY SEEKING INSPIRATION FROM IF ANYBODY?
>> HONESTLY, I DON'T MEAN TO BE GLOOM AND DOOM AND SO MUCH OF THE TIME IS FOCUSSED ON THE THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF THEM AND THE TELEVISION SCREEN, BUT MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IT'S THE iPHONE SCREEN AND SOMETIMES THEY'RE USING THOSE TO CONNECT WITH REAL PEOPLE, BUT OFTEN THEY'RE LIVING IN SOME FANTASY WORLD SO IT ISN'T AT ALL LIKE THE BOY SCOUTS OR THE GIRL SCOUTS AND IT'S A VERY SELF-ISOLATING KIND OF TECHNOLOGY AND THEY CAN SEE IT HIGHLIGHTS A NUMBER OF REALLY IMPORTANT NEW INITIATIVES BEING PURSUED ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND A RELIGIOUS GROUP REACHING OUT TO YOUNG KIDS INTERESTED IN THE ENVIRONMENT AND ALSO WANTING TO CONNECT TO OTHER PEOPLE OR A BIKING ROUTE IN ATLANTA, SO THERE ARE THINGS TO DO.
>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE WE'RE CLEARLY TALKING TO YOU IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THIS INCREDIBLY POLARIZED AND VIOLENT POLITICAL ERA THAT WE LIVE.
SO THE RNC IS GOING ON NOW.
THE DNC WILL HAPPEN AT THE END OF AUGUST.
HOW DO YOU FIT THIS INTO POLITICS RIGHT NOW?
IT'S DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO POLITICS.
INDEED, IT SHOWS THAT THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN WHETHER PEOPLE ARE KECKING WITH ONE ANOTHER IN ALL OF THE WAYS WE TALKED ABOUT IN CIVIC GROUPS AND SO ON, AND HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS.
THAT'S BEEN SHOWN AROUND THE WORLD, REALLY THAT IT'S NOT SO MUCH WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS ON PAPER.
IT'S WHETHER PEOPLE ACTUALLY CONNECT WITH ONE ANOTHER AND THEREFORE CAN GIVE LIFE TO THE CONSTITUTION AND WE'VE HAD PERIODS IN OUR COUNTRY AND MOST OF THE TIME IN OUR COUNTRY, WE'VE BEEN A NATION OF GIANTS AND THAT'S WHY OUR CONSTITUTION IS NOT JUST THAT THE WORDS ON PAPER ARE WHAT THEY ARE, BUT THEY'VE BEEN SUSTAINED WITH THIS LIVING CONSTITUTION AMONG US AND THAT'S WHAT AND 125 YEARS AGO BECAUSE OF THE SECURITY COUNSEL REVOLUTION WAS RESTORED AND A VERY SHORT ONE, AND I'M A HISTORIAN AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MOVE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT THE NEXT DECADE OR TWO.
I'M SUGGESTING WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN HAVE WAYS TO RECONNECT ACROSS POLITICS AND RELIGION, RACE AND SO ON.
WE'VE DONE IT IN THE PAST.
I'M JUST GOING PAY YOU A SOUND BITE OF AN INTERVIEW I DID WITH VIVEK MURTHY WHICH WAS THE SURGEON GENERAL ABOUT LONELINESS AND HE'S REALLY ON A CAMPAIGN ABOUT IT, AND I'M JUST GOING TO PLAY YOU THIS SNIPPET.
>> WHEN I WAS IN UNIVERSITY THE LOUDEST PLACE ON CAMPUS WAS THE DINING HALL.
WE WOULD ALL FINISH CLASSES AND EVERYONE WANTED TO TALK, TALK, TALK AND CATCH UP AND NOT ONLY IS IT QUIETER THERE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ON DEVICES.
>> HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO MEET PEOPLE?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
IT FEELS INTRUSIVE WHEN PEOPLE HAVE THEIR EAR BUDS IN AND LOOKING AT THEIR PHONE.
THE LESS YOU DO IT, THE HARDER IT GETS BECAUSE THE SOCIAL MUSCLE HAS TO BE BUILT OVER TIME.
>> AGAIN, JUST QUICKLY, FINALLY, HOW DOES ONE BUILD THAT SOCIAL MUSCLE?
>> PRACTICE.
THAT'S HOW YOU ALWAYS BUILD MUSCLE AND PRACTICE MEANS WE ADULTS HAVE TO GET MORE INVOLVED IN MENTORING OUR KIDS AND OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS AND WE NEED TO GET THEM TO REALIZE THAT THERE IS A WIDER WORLD OUT THERE THAT'S FUN.
THE BOY SCOUTS WAS NOT JUST EAT YOUR SPINACH.
IT WAS HAVING FUN AND AT THE SAME TIME LEARNING CHARACTER FORMATION.
I WAS IN SCOUTS AND I CAN STILL PLEDGE NOW SEVEN YEARS LATER A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY AND THRIFTY, GREAT, LOYAL AND REVERENT.
HOW DID I DO THAT?
I HAD LOTS OF HIKES IN WHICH WE TAUGHT EACH OTHER THAT AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO NOW.
IT HAS TO BE REDISCOVERING THE JOYS OF BEING TOGETHER.
>> ROBERT PUTNAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
REALLY FASCINATING.
>>> SO THE RNC IS BEING CLOSELY WATCHED FOR ANSWERS ABOUT HOW THE GOP WILL FINE-TUNE ITS STRATEGY FOR THE OVAL OFFICE.
HOW WILL TRUMP FURTHER SHIFT THE IDEOLOGICAL FOUNDATIONS OF THE PARTY?
HOW SERIOUSLY SHOULD PROJECT 2025 BE TAKEN?
AND WHAT CAN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DO DIFFERENTLY?
TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE HARRY ASKED STAN HERNDON, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" POLITICS REPORTER AND THE HOST OF THE RUN-UP PODCAST.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.
STAN HERNDON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM AGAIN.
HERE WE ARE IN MILWAUKEE.
I THINK THE BIG STORY FOR MOST PEOPLE IS HOW DOES DONALD TRUMP, HOW DOES THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REACT TO THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON THE FORMER PRESIDENT?
>> YEAH.
I THINK THAT CERTAINLY LOOMS OVER THIS CONVENTION.
WE HAVE SEEN REPUBLICANS AND TRUMP TRY TO SAY THEY'LL SEEK TO STRIKE A UNIFYING TONE.
THEY'LL USE THIS MOMENT TO PIVOT THEIR MESSAGE TO BRING IT TO MORE PEOPLE AND IT REFLECTS ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND EVEN BEFORE THE EVENTS ON SATURDAY.
THEY WERE READING THE POLLING AND THEY WERE READING THE ANGST IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND FEELING LIKE THIS IS THEIR ELECTION TO LOSE, AND THAT IS ON ONE SIDE, AND WE SHOULD ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAVE BEEN A PART OF RAISING THE POLITICAL TEMPERATURE AND DIVISION THROUGHOUT THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS AND THAT IS WHO TRUMP IS.
EVEN WHEN WE THINK ABOUT J.D.
VANCE USING THE MOMENT ON SUNDAY TO TARGET DEMOCRATS AND PLACE THE BLAME ON JOE BIDEN WHEN WE KNOW THAT ISN'T A CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP.
I THINK WE CAN SAY THAT THEIR POLITICAL AMBITION WILL BE TO PIVOT, IMAGINE TRYING TO STAKE A CHORD OF UNITY AND THAT'S CLEAR LEET INTENTION, AND I THINK WE'VE HAD EVIDENCE OVER THE LAST SEVEN, EIGHT YEARS TO KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT MADE HIS POLITICAL CALLING CARD ONE OF BRINGING PEOPLE IN TOGETHER.
THIS WILL BE ASKING A LEOPARD TO CHANGE ITS SPOTS HERE, AND I THINK WE SHOULD BE PRETTY SKEPTICAL OF THAT.
>> ARE THERE CONCERNS ABOUT SECURITY?
THERE WERE CONVERSATIONS AS SOON AS THE SHOOTING HAPPENED.
WAS THE SECRET SERVICE PREPARED?
AND THE SECRET SERVICE CAME OUT AND SAID IN THEIR OWN PRESS CONFERENCE AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD SAID THAT HE'D HAD A CONVERSATION WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MADE A STATEMENT ABOUT POLITICAL VIOLENCE.
>> IS THERE INCREASED ANXIETY ABOUT NOT JUST THE SAFETY OF THE PRESIDENT, BUT ANYBODY WHO IS THERE.
>> I CAN SAY THAT EVEN BEING HERE FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF DAYS, THE TOWN OF MILWAUKEE IS LOCKED DOWN.
THERE ARE SO MANY SECURITY CHECKPOINTS AND SUCH A PERIMETER AROUND THEM.
I WENT THROUGH FAVOR SIX CHECKS TO GET THERE WHEN I WAS GETTING THERE EARLIER TODAY.
I'M PRETTY SURE THE SECURITY WAS BEEFED UP AND IT WAS PROBABLY MORE SO SINCE THE, VENTS ON SATURDAY, BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WE SHOULDN'T SEE POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND THE INCIDENT ON SATURDAY AS AN ISOLATED ONE.
WHEN WE LOOK BACK OVER THE LAST PRETTY CORE TO A LOT OF WHAT'S HAPPENED IN OUR COUNTRY.
WE THINK ABOUT THE TREE OF LIFE SHOOTING, EL PASO SHOOTING, THE ATTACK ON PAUL PELOSI, THE ATTACK ON STEVE SCALISE.
THESE HAVE BEEN CONSISTENT INCIDENTS OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS AND IT REFLECTS THE GROWING TENOR OF DIVISION AND DISCORD THAT IS IN OUR POLITICS.
AND SO I THINK SATURDAY WAS CERTAINLY A BRACING MOMENT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WATCHED, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK IT'S AN AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT HAS COME TO EXPECT A POLITICAL SYSTEM.
I LEFT OUT JANUARY AND IT'S BEEN A STEADY DRUMBEAT OF INCREASE AND OF POLITICAL CONVENTION, AND I THINK THAT WE'LL SEE THAT GOING FORWARD FOR BOTH CANDIDATES.
>> I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING HOW POLITICIANS IS FRAMING THE EVENTS WOULD HAPPEN.
JOE BIDEN SENT THE ORDERS AND THEN YOU HAVE MATT GAETZ, FLORIDA.
THEY TRIED TO IMPEACH HIM.
THEY'RE TRYING TO IMPRISON HIM.
NOW THEY HAVE TRIED TO ASSASSINATE HIM.
HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT RHETORIC WHERE THERE'S CLEARLY SOME POLITICAL OPPORTUNITIES GOING ON WITH THE CAMPAIGN SAYING WE WANT TO TRY A UNIFYING MESSAGE.
>> PARTICULARLY WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE ATTACK DOGS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE MATT GAETZ, THE FREEDOM CAUCUS WING AND EVEN J.D.
VANCE.
THEY'VE BEEN THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN MOST EXPLICITLY TRYING TO LINK THIS TO DEMOCRATS AND FRANKLY, CREATING AN ARGUMENT THAT SAYS DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN VIOLENTLY TARGETING TRUMP FOR YEARS.
THIS PLAYS WITHIN A NARRATIVE THAT THEY'VE BEEN CREATING FOR A LONG TIME AND ONE THAT STARTED AS PRESIDENT BEING OBSTRUCTED AS DEMOCRATS AND TRYING TO INVALIDATE HIS PRESIDENCY AND CERTAINLY THE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS HAVE TAKEN PLACE SINCE HE'S LEFT OFFICE AND NOW THIS RECENT KIND OF ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT PLAYS WITHIN A SCRIPT THAT THE RIGHT WING IS TRYING TO SAY WHICH IS THAT THE LEFT AND JOE BIDEN ARE TRYING TO DO WHATEVER THEY CAN TO STOP DONALD TRUMP FROM COMING BACK INTO OFFICE.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOT CONFLATE THOSE THINGS AND THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT THE SHOOTER ON SATURDAY DO NOT LINK HIM DIRECTLY TO DEMOCRATS.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THERE IS ANY KIND OF CONNECTION WITH THE PARTIES HERE AND FRANKLY, IT FITS THE PROFILE OF MIXED IDEOLOGY SCHOOL SHOOTER TYPE THAT WE'VE SEEN OFTEN IN THESE TYPE OF INCIDENTS, AND SO REPUBLICANS ARE DOING A SLIGHT OF HAND TO PLAY INTO THE POLITICAL PURPOSES AND THE SERIES OF WHAT HAPPENS DOES CAUSE TO ASK WHAT THE MESSAGE IS GOING FORWARD.
THE CLEAR MESSAGE FROM DEMOCRATS UP UNTIL THIS POINT WAS DONALD TRUMP WAS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY AND THAT CREATED AN EMERGENCY THAT FORCED PEOPLE TO ACT, AND YOU EVEN HEAR SOME DEMOCRATS NOW SAYING IS THAT TENOR A LITTLE -- A LITTLE TOO INTENSE FOR THIS MOMENT?
ARE WE CONTRIBUTING TO THE KIND OF POLARIZATION OF THIS MOMENT WITH THAT ARGUMENT?
THAT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING.
DO DEMOCRATS BACK OFF OF WHAT'S BEEN THE MESSAGE TO RALLY THEIR BASE?
>> WE JUST HAD JUDGE AILEEN CANNON OUTRIGHT DISMISS THE DOCUMENTS CASE.
IT WILL BE APPEALED, BUT I WONDER IF THAT IMPACTS THE OVERALL STANDING AND STRATEGY WHEN IT COMES TO HOW THE RNC FRAMES THE FORMER PRESIDENT GOING FORWARD?
>> I THINK IT WILL, PARTIALLY BECAUSE THEY'VE TRIED TO FRAME THESE CASES AS A WEAPONIZATION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP.
IT WILL PLAY INTO THE SENSE OF THE PERSECUTION AND A REPUBLICAN VICTIMHOOD THAT'S BEEN CORE TO THAT MESSAGE.
I DON'T WANT TO CONFLATE THOSE TWO THINGS BECAUSE I DO THINK THE SHOOTING IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, BUT IT IS THE SAME TYPE OF MESSAGE THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO PITCH.
THIS IS A CANDIDATE THAT HAS BEEN UNDER ATTACK AND I WALKED PAST THE BIG BILLBOARD IN THE PFIZER FORUM WHERE THEY'RE HOLD THIS WHICH IS ONE OF TRUMP'S QUOTES FROM HIS SPEECHES IS THEY'RE NOT COMING AFTER ME.
THEY'RE COMING AFTER YOU.
I'M JUST IN THE WAY.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE VERY LOCATION.
YOU'RE IN MILWAUKEE THAT HAS BEEN IN SOME WAYS A DEMOCRATIC STRONGHOLD, BUT YOU KNOW WISCONSIN IS A BATTLEGROUND STATE THAT'S SWUNG BEFORE?
>> WHAT'S THE ONE GOING TO START ABOUT THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION.
WHY IS THIS CONVENTION.
>> IT WAS UP ENDED BY COVID, PARTIALLY BECAUSE MILWAUKEE REMAINS A WEATHER OF THE PARTY, AND WISCONSIN IS A CLEARLY PURPLE STATE, BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN REFLECTED IN THEIR STATE POLITICS.
THEY ALOUD REPUBLICANS TO CONTROL POWER ON THE STATE LEGISLATURE FOR YEARS HERE.
I THINK THE SCOTT WALKER ERA AND THAT TIME AND WHAT DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO IS SLOWLY CRAWL BACK TO THE POINT AND THE ONUS IS NOW ON REPUBLICANS TO DO BETTER.
HERE'S WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, IS WISCONSIN IS NOT A TRUMPY REPUBLICAN STATE AS WELL AS SUBURBS WHO DRIFTED AWAY FROM HIM.
YOU SAW NIKKI HALEY PUT UP GOOD NUMBERS IN WISCONSIN EVEN THOUGH SHE DROPPED OUT.
THEY'RE BEEN PULLED TOWARD THE TRUMP BASE AND A MORE, I WOULD SAY, A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE TYPE IN THIS STATE AND IT'S HURT HIM.
IT'S ACTUALLY HURT REPUBLICANS WHERE.
WHERE DEMOCRATS HAVE STRUGGLE SIDE MOTIVATING IN PLACES LIKE MILWAUKEE MADISON AND THEY'VE HAD A FULL DROPOFF, WHICH IS A LOT OF REPUBLICANS TO SEIZE ON THAT.
>> IT'S IMPORTANT WHY THE WEN WENS ARE DOING HERE?
THEY'RE TRYING TO DO TWO THINGS.
THEY'RE TRYING TO LIMIT OKESHAW OUTSIDE OF MILWAUKEE AND THE BLACK, AND THAT IS A RECIPE THAT ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE UP WHAT IS SURE TO BE A MONKEY.
>> THERE'S STUFF STUFF THAT COMES OFF CAMERA AND SHALLY THE PARTY -- WHAT DO THEY STAND FOR?
I WONDER WHAT HAS THIS PARTY KNOW ABOUT ABLE TO DO?
HAVE THERE BEEN SHIFTS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER AND IS THERE AN EMPHASIS ON EXECUTIVE POWER AND ET CETERA?
>> THERE IS AN IMPORTANT POINT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS DONE IS YOU TAKE OVER THE LEVERS OF THE PARTY AND THE POLICY WRITING PROCESS AND THE PLATFORM PROCESS THAT WE THINK THAT HAPPENS AT THESE TYPE OF CONVENTIONS HAS BEEN TOTALLY UP ENDED BY TRUMP ALREADY.
LAST WEEK THERE WAS A LOT OF REPORTING ABOUT HOW THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN FRANKLY STEAM ROLLED A LOT OF THE TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE A PART OF THAT PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THINGS LIKE ABORTION WERE NOT MENTIONED IN THE PARTY PLATFORM BECAUSE HE WANTS TO HAVE A MUSHY POSITION ON THERE.
INSTEAD YOU HAD A SERIES OF TRUMP PRONOUNCEMENTS THAT WERE LARGELY PRETTY VAGUE THAT NOW MAKE UP THIS PARTY PLATFORM.
BRING BACK ENERGY INDEPENDENCE AND JUST KIND OF THE THINGS YOU HEAR DONALD TRUMP SAY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, AND I THINK THIS IS PARTIALLY WHY THINGS LIKE PROJECT 2025 AND THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION'S ATTEMPTS TO MAKE UP A POLICY PLATFORM HAVE REALLY EXPLODED BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN FAIRLY VAGUE ON WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO ON THAT FRONT, AND THEY INTENTIONALLY HAVE DONE THAT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE PUSHED INTO UNPOPULAR DECISIONS.
I THINK THIS WILL BE A BIG THING TO WATCH GOING FORWARD.
>> I WONDER, IS THERE A SPECIFIC REASON THAT YOU'VE GOT PROJECT 2025 THAT THE POLICY THEY CAN TAKE AND RUN WITH AND THEN THE FUTURE POSITION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH AS YOU POINT OUT, IS VERY VAGUE.
>> YEAH.
>> HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THOSE?
BECAUSE PRESIDENT HAS TRIED REPEATEDLY TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM PROJECT 2025.
>> THEY HAVE AND THE TRUTH THAT WE KNOW IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE HERE, BUT I THINK DEMOCRATS HAVE AN IMPORTANT POINT.
DONALD TRUMP CANNOT JUST DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM PROJECT 2025 BECAUSE THE WRITERS AND THE POLICIES COME FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ARE CLOSE TO DONALD TRUMP AND THEY'RE VERY LIKELY TO BE INVOLVED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IF HE WAS TO COME BACK.
I THINK IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS WHY TRUMP WANTS TO REMAIN VAGUE ON THESE POLICY PLATFORMS IS BECAUSE A LOT OF THINGS PROPOSED IN PROJECT 2025 ARE MASSIVELY UNPOPULAR.
THINK ABOUT ELIMINATING THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND ELIMINATING GENDER IN POLICY, REGULATION OR LAW.
SOME OF THE GOALS THEY HAVE SPECIFIC TO ABORTION.
SOME OF THE GOALS THEY HAVE SPECIFIC TO LGBT RIGHTS ARE UNPOPULAR AND THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS PROJECT 2025 IS EXPLICIT ABOUT THE UNITARY, EXECUTIVE THEORY THAT'S AT THE HEART OF A LOT OF THIS TRUMP POLICY RHETORIC AND WHAT THAT IS IS A BELIEF THAT THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE, THE PRESIDENT HAS ULTIMATE POWER OVER A LOT OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH AND THAT MORE IMPORTANTLY, OVER THE REGULATORY AND THE CIVIL SERVICE ECOSYSTEM.
SO WHEN REPUBLICANS TALK ABOUT DRAIN THE SWAMP, THIS TIME AROUND IN '24 THEY HAVE A PLAN TO DO SO.
THEY HAVE A PLAN TO UP END KIND OF THE NORMAL DRUTHERS OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND TO INSTALL LOYALISTS IN THOSE POSITIONS, AND SO I THINK THE REALITY OF THOSE PLANS IS WHY WE SEE DONALD TRUMP DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM SOMETHING LIKE 2025.
I THINK YOU ALSO HAVE THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN FOCUSING ON IT BECAUSE IT ADDS MEAT TO THE BONES OF THE REGULAR OLD, LESSER OF TWO EVILS ARGUMENT WHERE HE'S USED TO HEARING DEMOCRATS.
>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS.
RIGHT NOW IN THE PAST CUP OF WEEKS EVER SINCE THE DEBATE AND WHAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE STRUGGLED TO OVERCOME IS JOE BIDEN'S AGE.
WITH THE LEADERSHIP, WHERE IS THAT PROCESS AT AND THE POSSIBILITY OF HIM NOT BEING AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET?
BECAUSE DAY IN AND DAY OUT, JOE BIDEN SAYS IT WOULD TAKE THE LORD ALMIGHTY TO STOP HIM.
>> FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF-ISH WE'VE BEEN HEARING VOTERS CONSISTENTLY AND IT WOULD BE THE THING THAT WOULD COME UP.
WHEN WE TALKED TO MOST PEOPLE ABOUT HOW THEY FELT ABOUT HIM AS PRESIDENT, AND THEY THINK THE FACT OF FOUR MORE YEARS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS AND THE DOTHERING OLD MAN HAD SAT WITH THE ELECTRIC LONG BEFORE THE DEBATE.
WHEN I TOOK THIS CHOS CLOSE TO THE BEADEN CAMP CAM.
FOR THE LAST YEAR, I WAS FRANK LEIGH SHOCKED ABOUT THE WAY THAT THEY WERE DISMISSING THAT JOE BIDEN'S AGE WAS A BIG POLITICAL LIABILITY WHEN WE LOOKED AHEAD TO NOVEMBER.
WHAT THE DEBATE DID WAS NULLIFY THEIR ABILITY TO STICK THEIR HEAD IN THE STAND BECAUSE FRANKLY, THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE DOING, AND IT WAS SUCH -- IT WAS SUCH, FRANKLY, A SDAFT FOR BIDEN THAT IT SWUNG FROM ONE END TO THE OTHER FROM I CAN ACKNOWLEDGE THIS TO WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?
BUT THE YEAR OF TIME BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS GAVE THEM VERY FEW OPTIONS ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH THAT, AND SO THEY WANTED TO HAVE A MORE ROBUST CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS, AND THAT TIME WAS LAST YEAR IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THAT PRIMARY.
AT THIS POINT THEY'VE BECOME KIND OF HANDSTRUNG AND I THINK YOU SEE THE REALIZATION HERE AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATE OF THE MOVEMENT TO MAYBE REPLACE JOE BIDEN IS THAT THAT IS MUCH MORE ACCEPTABLE AMONG THE BROADER DEMOCRATIC ELECTORATE THAN IT IS AMONG THE INNER RUNGS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT WHEN I TALK ABOUT DEMOCRATS AND THE PROFESSIONAL DEMOCRATS AND THE IDEA -- IT WOULD TAKE ANOTHER MOMENT OF THE DEBATE TO HAVE THAT COME CLOSE TO FRUITION.
THAT DECISION WILL COME FROM JOE BIDEN AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A HARD HILL TO CLIMB, AND SO YOU STILL SEE SOME EVIDENCE AND YOU STILL SEE SOME REPORTING.
PEOPLE LIKE NANCY PELOSI ARE CALLING AROUND AND SEEING IF THAT TEMPERATURE IS STILL THERE, BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU BECAUSE AT THIS POINT WE'LL BE IN A SITUATION WHERE 70, 75% OF THE PUBLIC MIGHT THINK HE'S NOT FIT TO SERVE A SECOND TERM.
IF YOU'RE SOMEONE RUNNING FOR SENATE IN A CLOSE RACE AND SHERROD BROWN AND JOHN TESTER, IF YOU'RE A HOUSE MEMBER TRYING TO HOLD ON TO YOUR SEAT HOW DO YOU NOT SAY -- HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU ALIGN YOURSELF WITH THE PRESIDENT THAT MOST AMERICANS DO NOT THINK IS FIT FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS?
THAT WILL BECOME THE REAL TENSION HERE IS HOW DO YOU HAVE A SINGULAR MESSAGE OF UNITY BEHIND BIDEN IF THAT MESSAGE IS COMPLETELY OUT OF STEP WHERE MOST PEOPLE ARE.
I THINK THAT WILL BE THE REAL TALE FOR ME, WHICH SOMEONE STARTS A FAVOR BY THEM AND THEN THE FRONT LINE DEMOCRATS WALK BACK WHAT THEY SAY AND YOU SAY I'M WRITING AND IT BECOMES A PARTY AND AN OPEN REVOLT ACROSS THE TOP OF THE TICKET.
?
BOTH OF THOSE REMAIN ON THE TABLE.
>> NEW YORK TIMES POLITICAL REPORTER AND HOST OF THE RUN-UP, STAN HERNDON.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
ALWAYS APPRECIATE IT.
>>> FINALLY TONIGHT IN AN INCREASINGLY DIVIDED WORLD THERE IS ONE THING THAT HAS THE POWER TO BRING US TOGETHER.
FANS ARE UNITED ACROSS THE GLOBE TO CELEBRATE A IS UP SUMMER OF SPORT.
IN MADRID, FANS WELCOMED SPANISH SOCCER TEAM AFTER THEIR TRIUMPH.
AND THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY AGO HEROES WELCOMED AMONG THE STREETS OF ARGENTINA AND CROWDS CHEERED AT THE RETURN OF THEIR VICTORIOUS TEAM WHO BROET HOME THE COPA AMERICA TROPHY FOR THE SECOND TIME IN A ROW, MEANWHILE IN PARIS THOUSANDS FLOCKED TO THE ICONIC LANDMARKS TO A LIMPIC TORCH TOUR THE CITY FOR TWO DAYS OF FESTIVITIES BEFORE THE SUMMER GAMES KICK OFF IN JUST TEN DAYS' TIME.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.