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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'.
-- REALLY IF I'M HONEST.
I AM A BIT NERVOUS.
ENGLAND MARKS FREEDOM DAY WITH COVID CASES RISING AND A PRIME MINISTER IN ISOLATION.
I TALKED TO THE LONDON MAYOR SADIQ KHAN ABOUT THE WISDOM OFLD WHAT COMES NEXT.
THEN.
IF I WAS --. IT IS EVOLVING.
IT IS NATURE.
ISRAELI DOCTORS ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE BALLOT BETWEEN VACCINATIONS AND VARIANTS.
HEALTH MINISTER JOINS ME WITH LESSONS FROM HIS HIGHLY VACCINATED COUNTRY.
ALSO AHEAD.
GET YOUR E-MAILS.OUR LOCATION, ALL YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA.
ALL YOUR PICTURES.
THEY CAN GET ALL OF YOUR VIDEO.
THEY CAN TURN ON YOUR MICROPHONE.
A GLOBAL SPY WARE SCANDAL.
WE GO INSIDE A CHILLING NEW REPORT THAT REVEALS SOPHISTICATED SMART PHONE ATTACKS ON JOURNALISTS, ACTIVISTS AND TWO WOMEN LINKED TO JAMAL KHOSHOGI.
PLUS.
IT WITH THE DRUG WAR AND REALIZE ITS BEEN A FAILURE.
WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT RETHINKING DRUG LAWS AND HIS NEW THOUGHT-PROVOKING BOOK 'THIS IS' ♪♪♪
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL THESE FUNDERS AND BYOMMUNITIES.Y CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THEY ARE CALLING IT FREEDOM DAY HERE IN ENGLAND.
NEARLY ALL COVID RESTRICTIONS ARE LIFTED NOW.
NIGHT CLUBS ARE OPEN.
AND YOU CAN MEET WITH AS MEMEG PEOPLE AS YOU LIKE.
CASES ARE HIGHEST LEVEL SINCE THE NATION'S MOST SENIOREDIBLY OFFICIALS ARE IN ISOLATION.
ALONG WITH HIS TREASURY ANDN HEALTH SECRETARIES.
COUNTRY EARLIER FROM HIS COUNTRY RESIDENCE.
IF WE DON'T OPEN UP NOW, THEN WE FACE A RISK OF EVEN TOUGHER CONDITIONS IN THE COLDER MONTHS WHEN THE VIRUS HAS A NATURAL ADVANTAGE.
AND WE LOSE THAT BREAK OF THE SCHOOL HOLIDAYS.
AND THERE COMES A POINT AFTER SO MANY HAVE BEEN VACCINATED WHEN FURTHER RESTRICTIONS NO LONGER PREVENT HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS BUT SIMPLY DELAY THE INEVITABLE.
AND SO WE HAVE TO ASK YOURSELVES THE QUESTION, IF NOT NOW, WHEN?
BUT A GROUP OF GLOBAL HEALTH EXPERTS WARN THAT BRITAIN COULD BECOME A COVID BREEDING GROUND.
AND THEY SAY LIFTING MOST RESTRICTIONS HERE IS A THREAT TO THE WORLD.
SADIQ KHAN IS MAYOR OF LONDON AND HAS AUTHORITY OF THE PUBLIC.
HE SAYS MASKS MUST STILL BE WOR.
AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM LONDON.
MAYOR KHAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
IT REALLY SEEMS QUITE CONFUSINGO PRIME MINISTER SAYING LET'S TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION THE WARMER MONTHS AND HIGH VACCINATIONS.OT NOW, WHEN?
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'RE HEARING HIS LATEST SPEECH TALK ABOUT INCREASING CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS.
HOW DO YOU CONNECT THOSE TWO AN PRACTICAL LEVEL?
WE SUPPORT GENERALLY SPEAKING RESTRICTIONS BEING EASED.
WHAT I DON'T SUPPORT IS THIS BEING CALLED FREEDOM DAY.
BECAUSE IT GIVES THE IMPRESSIONM THIS VIRUS WHEN WE KNOW THE VIRUS IS STILL HERE.
WE ALSO KNOW IN LONDON GET AN AVERAGE 4,000 NEW CASES A DAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AROUND 32,000 CASES DURING THE COURSE OF A DAY.
THAT'S WHY IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO BE AWARE THAT THE VIRUS STILL WITH US.
THE BIG GAME CHANGER THOUGH IS THE VACCINE ROLLOUT.
JUST IN LONDON ALONE MORE THAN 10 MILLION DOSES HAVE BEEN ADMINISTERED.
MORE THAN 8 OUT OF 10 LONDONERS HAVE AT LEAST ONE DOSE AND THOSE ABOVE 40 NOW 80% HAVE HAD BOTH DOSES.
WE KNOW THE INCREASED VACCINE ROLLOUT AND WEAKENING BETWEEN THE VIRUS AND SERIOUS ILLNESS GIVES US OPPORTUNITY TO TRY AND REOPEN THE ECONOMY.
PARTICULARLY HOSPITALITY, CULTURE, THE NIGHTTIME ECONOMY AND RETAIL.
YOU SAY THAT AND YOU OBVIOUSLY SUPPORT SOME REASONABLE LIFTING OF RESTRICTIONS AND IT CAN'T GO ON LIKE THIS FOREVER AS THE PRIME MINISTER AND OTHERS SAY.
HOWEVER YOU HAVE ALSO TAKEN A STAND.
YOU ARE SAYING THAT NOT ON MY PUBLIC TRANSPORT SYSTEM, TFL TO HAVE MANDATORY MASK WEARING AND THE LIKE.
TRANSPORT SYSTEM.
PUSHBACK?INK YOU WILL GET
I'VE EXAMINED THE EVIDENCE AND SAGE, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION AND ALSO EXPERTS LIKE THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL IN THE USA.
WHAT THEY SAY BROADLY SPEAKING IS INDOORS WHERE YOU CAN'T KEEP SOCIAL DISTANCE, WEARING A FACE COVERING REDUCES CHANCES OF TRANSMISSION AND MAKES OTHERS SAFE IF YOU WEAR A FACE MASK AND CAN KEEP YOU SAFE AS WELL, EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE HAD TWO DOSES.
SO AS AN ADDITIONAL LEVEL OF PROTECTION, AS AN ADDITIONAL LAYER OF REASSURANCE.
I'M SAYING WHEN YOU ARE USING PUBLIC TRANSPORT IN LONDON BECAUSE IT IS INDOORS, THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE AND YOU OFTEN CAN'T KEEP YOUR SOCIAL DISTANCE, ARE REQUIRED TO A FACE COVERING.
AND YOU TALKED ABOUT LONDON AND THE UP TICK IN VACCINE.
ACTUALLY THE FIGURES.
I'D LIKE YOU TO TELL ME ABOUT THEM.
YOU KNOW, QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE, ABOUT 55% HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SECOND DOSE.
THERE ARE LOTS OF POP UP CLINICS.
THE CITY OBVIOUSLY HAS A YOUNGISH POPULATION.
WHAT IS YOUR READING AS TO WHY SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SECOND DOSE, DESPITE YOU TRYING TO GET THEM TO DO IT AND OFFERING IT?
WELL THE GREAT NEWS IS -- EVERY DAY.
AND CHALLENGES AS A GLOBAL CITY NEW YORK AND SO FORTH.ES LIKE WHICH IS WE HAVE A YOUNGER POPULATION.
THEY ARE MORE MOBILE.
THEY ARE MORE DIVERSE.
FEWER ARE REGISTERED WITH GENERAL PRACTITIONERS OR THE AUTHORITIES.
SO THE NORMAL WAYS OF CONTACTING PATIENTS ISN'T THERE.
ALSO GOT LARGE NUMBER OF MIGRANT WHO IS HAVEN'T GOT CONFIDENCE OE AUTHORITIES TO RECEIVE THE JAB.
GOOD NEWS BECAUSE WE'VE HAD POPUP CLINICS IN STADIUMS AND ELSEWHERE MUSEUMS, WE'RE INCREASING EVERY DAY THE NUMBER OF YOUNGER PEOPLE WITH THE JAB.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THOSE AGED BETWEEN 18 AND 30 NOW HAVE GIVEN A MILLION JABS.
KEY THING THOUGH IS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE REALIZE THE JAB, THE VACCINE, THAT IS THE GAME CHANGER.
THAT'S WHY IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE TO RECEIVE THE JAB.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TRULY CONFUSED.
AND LISTENING TO THE LATEST HEALTH BRIEFING FROM DOWNING STREET AND THE SCIENTIFIC OFFICES THEY SAY EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE DOUBLE JABBED ARE PROPPING UP WITH POSITIVE COVID RESULTS WHAT IN THEIR -- WHERE IN THERE IS THERE ANY LIGHT?
IS IT BECAUSE THEY MAY NOT BE A?
IS IT BECAUSE THE PRIME MINISTER AND ISRAELI OFFICIALS HAVE SAID WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH COVID IT IS NOT GOING AWAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE TOW TO LIVE THIS WITH?
WHAT GIVES YOU HOPE AMID A, YOU KNOW, LIFTING RESTRICTIONS AT THE SAME TIME THESE INFECTIONS ARE RISING?
WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT THE VIRUS IS A KILLER.
THE VACCINE DOESN'T BREAK THE LINK BETWEEN THE VIRUS AND SERIOUS ILLNESS OR DEATH.
WHAT IT DOES IS WEAKEN THE LINK BETWEEN CATCHING THE VIRUS ANDS.
SO IN LONDON, FOR EXAMPLE, EVERN CATCHING THE VIRUS.PEOPLE BAD NEWS.
THE GOOD NEWS IS WHAT WE'RE NOT SEEING IS A PROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN HOSPITALS IN ICU OR LOSING THEIR LIVES THANKFULLY.
AND THAT IS BECAUSE RECORD RECEIVED THE JAB.ERS HAVE THAT IS WHY THE JAB, THE VACCINT AND SERIOUS ILLNESS.WEEN VIRUS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT AS MANY OF US POSSIBLE RECEIVE NOT JUST ONE DOSE OF THE VACCINE BUT BOT.
AND ONCE WE'VE DONE THAT LATER ON IN THIS YEAR IN WINTER WE MAY WELL HAVE TO GIVE BOOSTER JABS AS WELL BECAUSE THIS VIRUS IS FUTURE. FOR THE FORESEEABLE
ABSOLUTELY.
AGENDA AND I'LL BE DISCUSSINGE THAT NEXT.
BUT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AS A HUMAN BEING WHO SEES PEOPLE, FOR INSTANCE, LAST NIGHT RAVING, GOING INTO NIGHTCLUB, ALL JAMMED CHEEK BY JOWL, YOU KNOW, CELEBRATING THIS FREEDOM DAY SO TO SPEAK.
THAT SEEMS -- I MEAN IT'S A BIT FRIGHTENING THAT SEEING EVERYBODY TOGETHER INSIDE.
DO YOU HAVE ANY ABILITY TO CONTROL THAT IN LONDON OR NOT?
NO WE DON'T.
BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS NATIONAL LEGISLATION.
OUR KEY THING IS MAKE SURE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF SPENDING TIME YOU CAN'T SEEP KEEP A SOCIALRE DISTANCE PARTICULARLY IF YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED ONE DOSE OR TWO DOSES OF THE VACCINE.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN OUR HOSPITALS IS FAR GREATER NUMBERS OF YOUNGER PEOPLE THAN WERE IN THE FIRST WAVE OR THE SECOND WAVE.
THE REASON IS VERY SIMPLE, YOUNGER PEOPLE HAVEN'T YET RECEIVED BOTH DOSES.
DWLAZ IT IS SO IMPORTANT IF YOU ARE GOING TO GO TO A CLUB LIKE MUSIC VENUE ORE SPEND LONG PERIOD OF TIME INDOORS WITHOUT KEEPING SOCIAL DISTANCE YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU RECEIVE BOTH DOSES.
ALSO WHERE YOU CAN'T KEEP DISTANCE WEAR A FACE MASK.
DO ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE LEARNED TO AVOID EITHER CATCHING THE VIRUS OR THE CONSEQUENCES BEING REALLY SERIOUS.
SO WHAT DO YOU SAY YOUR MAJOR MESSAGE IS TO YOUNG PEOPLE.
BECAUSE I'M JUST LOOKING AT ISRAEL OR THE NETHERLANDS WHERE THEY ALSO HAD LIFTING OF LOCKDOWNS AND CERTAINLY THE NETHERLANDS OVER THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS.
THEY HAD A MASSIVE SPIKE.
THE PRIME MINISTER HAD TO APOLOGIZE FOR AN ERROR IN FROM A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE GOING OUT.
WHATEVER TO PARTY, GATHERINGS, CLUBS.
IS THAT YOUR MAIN MESSAGE?
YEAH.
THE MAIN MESSAGE IS TO GET THE JAB.
IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THE VACCINE IS A GAME CHANGER.
WE'VE GOT TO PARK THE ANTI-VAXERS.
WE'VE GOT TO PARK THE COVID CONSPIRACY THEORISTS AND JUST ADDRESS THOSE YOUNGER PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR WHO AREN'T QUITE AWARE OF HOW DEADLY THIS VIRUS IS GOING TO BE AND THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN YOUNG ONCE WE THINK WE'RE AIMMUNE.
BULLET PROOF NOTHING CAN HARM US BUT THE BAD NEWS IS THIS VIRUS CAN HARM YOU.
FIRST PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE RECEIVED ONE JAB AS SOON AS POSSIBLE SO YOU CAN RECEIVE THE.
AND YOUR ROOT BACK TO NORMALITY.
INTERNATIONAL HOLIDAYS, GOING TO NIGHT CLUBS IN THE FUTURE WILL BE LIMITED IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED BOTH JABS BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT IS POSSIBLE TO COME TO THE WEST END TO GO, YOU KNOW, LIVE MUSIC TO GO TO THE THEATER TO GO TO GREAT, GREAT CLUBS SAFELY IF YOU TAKE A NUMBER OF SAFEGUARDS.
ONE OF THOSE IS TO MAKE SURE YOU REALIZE YOU HAVE GOT TO REGULARLY AND THOROUGHLY WATCH YOUR HANDS.
YOU HAVE GOT TO CARRY HAND SANITIZER WITH YOU.
I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO ENJOY YOURSELVES.
DO IT SAFELY.
AND KEEP UP THE HONOR CODE.
LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY BECAUSE YOUR FATHER WAS A BUS DRIVER.
YOU ARE NOW IN CHARGE OF THE LONDON TRANSPORT.
AS THE HUGE, YOU KNOW, PRESSURE ON ALL THESE PEOPLE TRYING TO KEEP IT GOING FOR EVERYBODY.
HOW DO YOU FEEL PERSONALLY?
IT IS HEARTBREAKING WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT NOT JUST COMMUTERS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT USING PUBLIC TRANSPORT BUT WE KNOW IN LONDON WE'VE LOST A NUMBER OF BRAVE TRANSPORT WORKERS BECAUSE.
MAIN TIME WAS DURING THE FIRST WAVE, MARCH, APRIL LAST YEAR BECAUSE OF COMMUNITY TRANSMISSIONS.
THAT IS WHY THE VACCINE, THE JAB IS A REAL GAME CHANGER.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I FELT SO STRONGLY ABOUT THE NEED TO WEAR FACE MASKS IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT BECAUSE WE DON'T JUST WANT TO KEEP OUR COMMUTERS, THE PUBLIC SAFE, WE WANT TO KEEP OUR WORKERS SAFE AS WELL.
AND WE HAVE IN LONDON ON TFL -- WORLD CLASS CLEANING.
HOSPITAL STYLE HOSPITAL QUALITY DISINFECTANT.
UV LIGHT, HAND SANITIZERS.
IT IS SAFE.
ADDITIONAL LAYER OF PROTECTION IS WEAR A FACE MASK WHEN YOU PUBLIC TRANSPORT IN OUR CITY.
KEEPS YOUR SAFE, FAMILY SAFE, COMMUNITY SAFE AND TRANSPORT WORKERS SAFE AS WELL.
OFTEN HOW THE CAPITAL GOES THE REST OF THE COUNTRY GOES.
MR. KHAN.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING.
> NOW IT IS HARD TO PREDICT THE FUTURE WHEN IT COMES TO COVID BUT AS WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING MANY ARE LOOKING AT THE DATA FROM ISRAEL FOR CLUES.
THE COUNTRY STARTED LIFTING RESTRICTIONS IN MARCH AFTER AN EARLY DRIVE SAW OVER 60% OF ITS PEOPLE GET AT LEAST ONCE VACCINATION.
HOWEVER CASES ARE SPIKING AGAIN THERE TOO AND OFFICIALS ARE NOW OFFERING A THIRD PFIZER BOOSTER SHOT TO THOSE WITH WEAKENED IMMUNE SYSTEMS.
ISRAEL'S HEALTH MINISTRY DIRECTOR GENERALLY IS JOINING ME NOW FROM AIRPORT CITY THERE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU JUST HEARD THE MAYOR OF LONDON.
YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ISSUES, THENE.
THE U.S. DO.
WHAT IS YOUR FEELING RIGHT NOW AS YOU SEE BRITAIN DECLARE FREEDOM DAY KNOWING THAT YOU HAVE HAD TO SORT OF, YOU KNOW, TAKE A FEW STEPS BACK.
SO HAS HOLLAND.AT WOULD YOU ADVN RIGHT NOW.
GOOD EVENING.
PLEASURE TO BE HERE.
AS YOU SAID WE HAVE LIFTED RESTRICTIONS FEW MONTHS AGO AND SINCE DELTA VARIANT ENTERED ISRAEL SOMEWHERE ARISED IN CASES LAST FEW WEEKS.
WE'RE GOING BACK A LITTLE AND TRYING TO KEEP ON WITH LIFE BUT WE KNOW WE HAVE TO FIGHT THE VIRUS NOT ONLY WITH VACCINES BUT ALSO WITH SOME RESTRICTIONS.
SO WHEN I LOOK AT ENGLAND, ACTUALLY IT IS VERY INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT IS GOING ON IN ENGLAND.
BUT I BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE ACTING SAFELY IN ORDER TO FIGHT THIS RISE OF CASES IN BRITAIN.
SO APPARENTLY IT IS ABOUT 90% OF THE CASES IN ISRAEL ARE THE DELTA VARIANT RIGHT NOW.
WHAT ACTUAL PRACTICAL MEASURES IS ISRAEL TAKING, WHETHER IT IS IN RESTAURANTS OR NIGHT CLUBS ON BEACHES OR WHATEVER TO HAVE SOME KIND OF -- I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS CALLED IT A SOFT SUPPRESSION.
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO DO IN THEIR BEHAVIOR TO DEAL WITH THIS CURRENT OUTBREAK?
OKAY.
THE FIRST THING IS MASKS.
USE MASKS.
WE LIFTED MASKS ABOUT TWO MONTHS AGO.
AND NOW A FEW WEEKS AGO WE RETURNED USING THEM INSIDE.
INSIDE PLACES.
AND SO WE WANT PEOPLE TO KEEP USING THEM.
THEN RIGHT NOW WE ARE TRYING TO GET BACK THE GREEN PASS THAT WE USED BACK A FEW WEEKS AGO.
AND ACTUALLY WE ARE GETTING IT INTO MASS EVENTS, PEOPLE, EVENTS WITH MORE THAN 100 PEOPLE LIKE WEDDINGS AND SO ON.
SO THE GREEN PASS MEANS THAT ONLY VACCINATED AND PEOPLE WITH NEGATIVE PCR TESTS CAN ENTER THE EVENT.
AND FOR THE FUTURE WE ARE LOOKING FOR PUTTING THIS GREEN PASS FOR EVEN MORE EVENTS LIKE THEATERS AND CINEMAS AND SO ON.
SO IT IS A LITTLE SORT OF ONE STEP FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK.
FRANCE IS TALKING ABOUT BRINGING CERTAIN PASSES IN AS WELL.
DO YOU SEE THAT AS YOU KNOW HOW ONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH COVID?
HOW DO YOU SEE AS A HEALTH PROFESSIONAL LIVING WITH THIS VIRUS FOR WHO KNOWS HOW LONG FROM NOW?
YOU KNOW, WE CAN EVEN TALK BOOSTER SHOTS BUT FIRST, YOU KNOW, PASSES, MASKS, IS THAT IT FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE?
WELL, I BELIEVE IT IS GOING TO BE FOR THE NEXT YEAR, MAYBE LONGER THAT WE NEED TO LIVE WITH THE VIRUS THAT GOES UP AND DOWN.
WHEN IT GOES DOWN, WE CAN EASE THE RESTRICTIONS.
AND WHEN IT GOES UP, WE CAN -- WE NEED TO PUT ON MORE RESTRICTIONS.
AND I THINK WE SHOULD LIVE WITH THAT.
SO MASKS, YES, I BELIEVE WE WILL USE MASKS FOR THE NEXT YEAR, MAYBE MORE.
AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD LOVE -- WE WILL HAVE TO BE VACCINATED EVERY YEAR, MAYBE LESS THAN THAT.
AND MIGHT LIVE WITH A GREEN PASS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT THAT WE SHOULD KEEP PLACES WITH MANY PEOPLE AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.
LIKE HAVING A NEGATIVE TEST.
DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, CASES WILL RISE IN COUNTRIES OR AREAS THAT KEEP INSISTING ON NOT WEARING MASKS?
YOU KNOW, THERE IS HOSTILITY TO SO MUCH OF THE RESTRICTION IS GROWING IN SOME AREAS.
WELL IN PLACES WHERE MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT VACCINATED?
YES.
I BELIEVE THAT THE DISEASE WILL RISE WHEN YOU DON'T USE MASKS.
SO IN PLACES LIKE SCHOOLS WHERE THERE ARE CHILDREN THAT ARE NOT VACCINATED, I THINK MASKS ARE MANDATORY RIGHT NOW.
WHEN THE VIRUS IS RISING.
SO MASKS ARE EASY THING TO USE AND WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP OUR PEOPLE TO USE IT, ESPECIALLY INSIDE PLACES WHERE MANY PEOPLE ARE ALL TOGETHER.
SO NOW I WANT TO GET YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE VACCINATION PROGRAM BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF ORDINARY PEOPLE ARE ALARMED WHEN THEY SEE THAT CERTAINLY THE DELTA VARIANT HAS INFECTED THOSE WHO ARE EVEN DOUBLE VACCINATED.
CERTAINLY HERE IN THE UK AND ELSEWHERE.
HOW ALARMING IS THAT?
AND HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU IN THE CURRENT -- YOU KNOW, THE CURRENT ABILITY FOR VACCINES TO KEEP THE SEVERITY OF DISEASE DOWN?
WELL, WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT THE VACCINATION IS THE SOLUTION FOR THIS PANDEMIC.
WE HAVE THE ALPHA VARIANT FEW MONTHS AGO, 60% OF THE POPULATION WAS ENOUGH.
BUT WHEN THE DELTA VIRUS IS MORE CONTAGIOUS WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO BE VACCINATED.
THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR PEOPLE TO BE VACCINATED WITH THE DELTA VARIANT.
WE NEED MORE PEOPLE.
IN ISRAEL WE WANT TO GO UP TO 80% OF THE POPULATION TO BE VACCINATED IN ORDER TO FIGHT THIS VIRUS THESE DAYS.
AND FINALLY, THE TALK ABOUT BOOSTERS.
I THINK ISRAEL IS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO TALK ABOUT ACTUALLY GIVING BOOSTERS THOSE WHO ARE IMMUNE THE DEFICIENT.
WE HEARD FROM NIH IN UNITED STATES TODAY THAT PFIZER MAY HAVE QUOTE GOT AHEAD OF ITS SKIS LICENSE FOR BOOSTERS.YING FOR WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?
IS IT SOMETHING YOU NEED TO IMPLEMENT NOW?
DO YOU THINK BOOSTERS HAPPEN SOON ELSEWHERE?
WHAT DO YOU THINK BECAUSE THE SUPPLY IS NOT GREAT, IS IT, ALL OVER THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
YES.
SO WE ARE DISCUSSING THESE ISSUES RIGHT NOW THESE DAYS.
AND ACTUALLY WE WANT TO HAVE SOME MORE DATA IN ORDER TO DECIDE ON THIS.
SO WE WANT TO HAVE MORE DATA.
BUT SECURITY OF THIS THIRD DOSE, WHETHER IT IS GOING TO BE HAZARDOUS TO PEOPLE AND ALSO ON THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE THIRD DOSE.
WE DON'T HAVE THIS DATA YET.
SO WE CAN'T DECIDE ON THAT.
I BELIEVE WE WILL NEED A THIRD DOSE, A BOOSTER DOSE.
BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE VERY SOON.
BECAUSE WE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THIS DELTA.
MAYBE WE WILL DO IT IN RESEARCH USING THE THIRD VACCINE ON PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET IT AND AGREE TO GET IT.
AND THEN DECIDE BY THE RESULTS OF THIS RESEARCH.
CURRENTLY WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DATA TO DECIDE ON THAT.
SO MANY QUESTIONS STILL AFTER I DON'T KNOW, 16 MONTHS OF THIS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
HEALTH MINISTRY. OF ISRAEL'S
> AND WE TURN TO A CHILLING NEW REPORT THAT SAYS A SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY AN ISRAELI COMPANY AND SOLD TO GOVERNMENTS TO TRACK DOWN TERRORISTS AND SERIOUS CRIMINALS IS ACTUALLY BEING USED ALSO BY ITS CLIENTS TARGET ACTIVISTS, POLITICIANS AND JOURNALISTS.
THE 'WASHINGTON POST' IN COORDINATION WITH 16 MEDIA PARTNERS CLUB PBS REPORTS THAT 37 SMART PHONES WERE SUCCESSFULLY HACKED BY A PROGRAM CALLED PEGASUS.
SOME WERE NO CLICK ATTACKS MEANING THE PHONES WERE COMPROMISED WITHOUT THE OWNERS EVEN CLICKING ON ANYTHING.
ISRAEL DENIES THE ALLEGATIONED HERE WITH MORE IS DANA PRIEST OF THE 'WASHINGTON POST.'
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
THIS SEEMS TO BE A CONTINUUM OF THE STORY THAT STARTED WITH EDWARD SNOWDEN REALLY OF HOW INVASIVE THESE OPERATIONS HAVE BECOME AND SOW OUR PRIVACY IS SO COMPROMISED.
TELL HOUSE THANK YOU SIGNIFICANT THIS PIECE AT STORY IS.
THERE HAVE BEEN STORIES ABOUT NSO AND PEGASUS BEFORE.
BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TO GIVE YOU REALLY THE DETAILS YOU HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.
WHO EXACTLY IS TARGETED?
AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THEIR LIVES?
THE EXAMPLES OF THE TWO WOMEN CLOSER TO THE MURDERED SAUDI COLUMNIST FOR THE 'WASHINGTON POST' AND WE HAVE INDICATIONS THAT PEGASUS TRIED TO HACK THE PHONE OF HIS WIFE BEFORE HIS MURDER AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN HACKING THE PHONE OF HIS FIANCE JUST SEVERAL DAYS AFTER THE MURDER.
SO WE CAN GIVE YOU THE INTIMATE DETAILS ABOUT PEOPLE'S LIVES ESPECIALLY JOURNALISTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTORS AROUND THE WORLD WHO WERE KIND ENOUGH AND COURAGEOUS ENOUGH ACTUALLY TO GIVE US THEIR CELL PHONES IN ORDER TO ANALYST THEM.
AND THAT IS THE BEST WAY WE'VE FOUND TO CONFIRM WHAT WE SAW IN OUR RECORDS.
SO WHAT PRECISELY DID YOU FIND ABOUT THE TWO WOMEN?
FOR INSTANCE, IT WAS KHASHOGGI'S WIFE AND FIANCE.
WHAT DID YOU FIND THAT WAS FRIGHTENING, DISTURBING OR OUT OF THE USUAL.
WELL WE FOUND FOR HIS WIFE, HER PHONE WAS HACKED -- SORRY, IT WAS ATTEMPTED A HACK AS FAR BACK AS SIX MONTHS BEFORE HIS MURDER.
THE REASON WE COULDN'T TELL WHETHER IT WAS PENETRATED OR NOT WAS ONLY BECAUSE SHE HAS A CERTAIN KIND OF PHONE THAT IS DIFFICULT TO ANALYST FOR AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL SECURITY LAB WHICH IS WHO DID THE FORENSICS.
BUT IT IS CLEAR THEY TRIED OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHICH COULD MEAN THEY DIDN'T SUCCEED AT FIRST OR IT COULD MEAN THEY WERE IN THERE FOR A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.
BUT REALLY WHAT THAT MEANS, THAT MEANS THEY COULD GET HER CONTACTS.
THAT MEANS THEY COULD TURN ON THE MICROPHONE.
AS SHE TOLD US, SOMETIMES OFTEN, SHE HAD HER PHONE IN THE LIVING ROOM WHEN KHASHOGGI WAS THERE CALLING FRIENDS OVERSEAS.
THE REALLY THE BREAKING INTO THE PHONE ALLOWS THE SURVEILER TO GET A NETWORK OF FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES FROM THAT PHONE IN WHICH THEY CAN -- WHAT THEY CAN USE TO SPY ON OTHER PHONES.
SO THEY COULD SURROUND SOMEBODY LIKE KHASHOGGI.
WE DON'T KNOW THAT THEY DID.
BUT THE SIGNIFICANCE IS THEY COULD SURROUND FRIENDS OF KHASHOGGI'S SO THEY GET A VIEW OF WHAT HE'S DOING DURING THE DAY, YOU KNOW, HIS VERY NIMBLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND ON APPS.
HE CHANGED APPS ALL THE TIME BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE HE WAS BEING SUR VEILED.
ON THE FIANCE IN TURKEY, SHE WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE ALSO TARGETED.
ALSO FRIENDS OF KHASHOGGI'S WHO WERE HIGH PROFILE AFTER THE MURDER AND ALSO TURKISH INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS AND THE PROSECUTOR DOING THE INVESTIGATION.
WE THINK PROBABLY THE SAUDIS.
THOUGH WE DON'T KNOW THE SAUDIS.
COULD HAVE BEEN A PROXY FOR THEM.
WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE GAME PLAN HERE?
WHAT DO WE NEED TO GET READY FOR?
WHAT ARE THEY ACTUALLY FINDING?
AND WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO SAY PUBLICLY?
SO IT IS GOING TO GIVE THEM AN ADVANTAGE.
LET ME PUT THIS TO YOU.
CNN HAS NOT INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRMED THE FINDINGS BUT THE COMPANY NSO WHICH USES PEGASUS IS DENYING THE CLAIMS.
BASICALLY IT SAYS AND WE KNOW THAT A IT WAS A FRENCH ORGANIZATION ALSO COLLABORATED.
THE REPORT BY FORBIDDEN STORIES A FULL OF WRONG ASSUMPTIONS AND UNCORROBORATED THEORIES THAT RAISE SERIOUS DOUBTS ABOUT THE RELIABILITY AND INTERESTS OF THE SOURCES.
IT SEEMS LIKE THE UNIDENTIFIED SOURCES HAVE SUPPLIED INFORMATION THAT HAS NO FACTUAL BASIS AND ARE 'FAST MONEY' FAR FROM REALITY.
AFTER CHECKING THEIR CLAIMS WE FIRMLY DENY THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS.
NSO WON'T REVEAL ITS CLIENTS THOUGH AND SAYS IT IS FULL OF THINGS TRYING TO STOP THINGS YOU WANT TO STOP.
TERRORISM AND ALL THE REST.
WHAT TO WE KNOW ABOUT NSO?
WHO LICENSES THEM?
WHO GIVES THEM PERMISSION TO SELL THEIR TECHNOLOGY FROM ISRAEL TO SAUDI OR WHEREVER?
WHAT IS THAT PART OF IT?
AS THE VERY IMPORTANT PART.
BECAUSE IT IS CONSIDERED A CYBERWEAPON BY ISRAEL THAT HAS TO DO WITH THEIR NATIONAL SECURITY.
SO THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE IN IN ISRAEL, THEIR APPROVAL IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN SELL TO EACH COUNTRY.
THEY APPROVE IT.
WE'D LIKE TO KNOW WHETHER THEY HAVE A BACK DOOR.
I DON'T THINK WE KNOW THAT YET FIRMLY.
AND NSO CANNOT -- NSO SAYS ALL SORT OF THINGS.
THEY SAY IT IS WRONG BUT WE CAN'T TELL YOU WHY.
THEY SAY WE CHECKED BUT ACTUALLY WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO CHECKING.
WELL THEY SAY WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE DATA.
SO HOW DO THEY CHECK AND MONITOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES?
THEY ARE NOT TRANSPARENT.
THEY ARE SECRETIVE.
THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.
THEY ARE FORMER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS FROM THE CYBERUNIT OF THE ISRAEL GOVERNMENT.
AND THEY USE THE SKILLS THEY LEARNED THERE TO BRING TO THE PRIVATE -- TO BRING THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY, TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY.
AND TO HAVE -- THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST THROUGH TRADE THAT COULD NOT BE SUCCESSFULLY MADE IN DIPLOMACY.
AND THAT IS WHY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING BIEB NETANYAHU WAS PROMOTING NSO THROUGHOUT THE WORLD REALLY BUT ALSO IN THE GULF STATES AND I FIND THAT FAIRWAYS NASMGT.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE NEW ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, PARTICULARLY THEIR DIRECTION ON FOREIGN POLICY IN SOME OF O TEASE ISSUES, DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT CHANGE?
WELL THAT IS ON OUR FRONT BURNER RIGHT NOW TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR REACTION WOULD BE.
BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN NEGATIVE REACTION ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS ONLY SAID WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT THEM TO SAY SO FAR, WHICH IS WE CAN'T COMMENT ON NATIONAL SECURITY SECRETS.
YOU KNOW, WE TAKE OUR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN WE DO THIS.
AND THEY HAVE STUCK WITH THE NSO LINE THAT THIS IS ONLY USED -- ONLY USED -- ON TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS.
SO WE ARE PROVING THAT TO BE INCORRECT.
WILL THEY OPEN UP AT ALL AND BE MORE TRANSPARENT AND PUT MORE REGULATIONS?
THIS IS A SYMBOL OF A BOOMING PRIVATE SECURITY ALL OVER THE WORLD UNREGULATED IN MOST WORLD UNREGULATED IN MOST COUNTRIES.
THIS THIS IS JUST ONE GROUP OUT THERE THAT CAN POTENTIALLY BE DOING THE SAME TYPES OF THINGS IN AN UNREGULATED ENVIRONMENT.
I WANT TO PUT TO YOU AN INTERVIEW I DID WITH BRIAN BOGEL WHO DID THE DISSIDENT, INTERVIEW ON LIFE AND ASSET OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI AND HE SPOKE TO ME A WHILE ABOUT NSO.
IF YOU RESEARCH NSO YOU WILL SEE MULTIPLE CASES NOT JUST IN SAUDI ARABIA, OUT OF AFRICA, OUT OF MEXICO AND MANY MANY OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD THAT HAVE HAD DICTATORSHIP, AUTOCRATIC REGIMES WHERE THEY HAVE SOLD THIS TECHNOLOGY AND THIS TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN USED TO GO AFTER DISSIDENTS OR GO AFTER POLITICAL OPPONENTS.
SO AGAIN, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JOURNALISTS.
OTHERS ARE ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE BEEN TARGETED.
THEY ARE POLITICIANS.
PEOPLE WHOSE JOBS HAVE R TO LOOK INTO THE DARK SIDE OF THE WORLD AND TRY TO REVEAL WHAT'S GOING ON.
WHY IS NSO TARGETING JOURNALISTS AND ACTIVISTS AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN UNDEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES, WHY WOULD ISRAEL HAVE SOLD TECH SPY WARE TO THAT KIND OF OPERATION?
WELL FIRST TO BE CLEAR IT IS NOT NSO THAT IS GOING TO THE TARGETING.
IT IS THE CLIENT COUNTRY DOING THE TARGETING.
NSO GIVES THEM A MAGIC AND THEN -- GIVES THEM A PACKAGE AND THEN THEY OPERATE IT.
THEY SAY THEIR SECURITY REASONS THEY HAVE THESE STRATEGIC ALLIANCES IN PLACE LIKES INDIA, HUNGARY AND MEXICO, ALL DEMOCRACIES BUT ALL REALLY STRUGGLING DEMOCRACIES AND WE FOUND THERE THAT THIS IS WHERE A LOT OF HACKING OR ATTEMPTED HACKING OF I WOULD CALL THEM CIVILIAN, PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
AND I THINK THAT'S -- THAT'S THEIR RATIONALE.
AGAIN, THEY WON'T ADMIT THAT ANY OF THIS IS GOING ON.
AND I THINK UNTIL THEY DO, THEN THINGS WILL NOT CHANGE.
YOU KNOW, IT DOES SEEM THAT QUITE A LOT OF IT IS DIRECTED IN, INCREASING THE AUTHORITARIAN NATIONS THAT DON'T WANT TO SEE DISSENT OR DISSIDENCE IN THEIR NATIONS.
AND I WONDER, IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU SAID THIS COLLABORATION INVOLVES YOU AND SOME 17 OTHER MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS.
IS THERE SAFETY IN NUMBERS?
I GUESS, WHAT IS YOUR, YOU KNOW, THE GROUP'S DESIRE IN TERMS OF BEING PRESENT TO TRY TO KEEP THIS UNDER CONTROL?
CAN YOU?
WELL THAT IS A GREAT POINT.
BECAUSE WE -- WE CAME TOGETHER IN PART BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A BIG PROBLEM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND NO ONE ORGANIZATION COULD HOPE TO DO INTERVIEWS IN SO MANY COUNTRIES.
BUT ALSO FOR THE PROTECTION OF OUR COLLEAGUES.
NOT OUR COLLEAGUES IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE AND THE EUROPEANS HAVE A FAIR AMOUNT OF PROTECTION AS YOU KNOW.
BUT THE COLLEAGUES IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WILL JUST GIVE YOU ONE CHAMP.
AZERBAIJAN.
AZERBAIJAN IS A FAMILY KLEPTOCACY AND THEY SELL THIS TO AZERBAIJAN AND ITS TARGETED MANY JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE ENDED UP IN PRISON OR FLEEING THE COUNTRY.
BUT AZERBAIJAN HAS A LONG REACH.
THEY CAN REACH OVER THE BORDERS WITH THEIR ALLIES AND SNATCH PEOPLE UP.
THEY CAN EXPEDITE THEM AND THEY DO.
EXTRADITE.
SO WE LOOK LOOKING OUT FOR ANYBODY IN ANY COUNTRY WHO IS RETALIATED AGAINST BECAUSE THEIR NAMES WERE IN THE MEDIA COVERAGE.
AND I THINK WE ALL HAVE PLEDGED TO REPORT THAT OUT AS WELL.
AND THIS DID HAPPEN ONCE BEFORE WHEN WE WROTE ABOUT A MOROCCAN CALLED OMAR RATTI WHO WAS THE VICTIM OF A PEGASUS HACK.
HE WAS ALSO -- AND THEN HE ENDED UP IN PRISON.
SO WE'VE DOPE OUR BEST TO WRITE ABOUT IT.
BUT MOROCCO TO THIS DAY REFUSES TO ACKNOWLEDGE ITS BOSTON PEGASUS.
AND THE MOROCCAN STORY IS QUITE EXTENSIVE.
NOT JUST IN MOROCCO BUT IN MOROCCO AGAINST MANY JOURNALISTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTS ARE.
ESPECIALLY WITH THE LONG TIME SIMMERING CONFLICT IN THE SAHARA DESERT WITH THE.
IT IS REALLY CHILLING ESPECIALLY THE NO CLICK -- HACK THERE.
TOLD NOT TO CLICK ON BUT THIS DOESN'T SEEM TO PARTICULARLY PROTECT YOU.
YOUR COLLEAGUES REPORTING NOW THAT ONE OF THE PHONE NUMBERS THAT'S BEEN REVEALED IS BELONGING TO ROB MALI, THE BIDEN'S ADMINISTRATION IRAN ENVOY.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT?
ALSO, WHAT OTHER THINGS YOU FEW DAYS AS THIS UNFOLDS?
GOOD TRY.
GOOD TRY.
WELL, MALI WAS THE NEGOTIATOR FOR THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.
WHEN HIS PHONE WAS ATTEMPTED OR I'M NOT SURE IF THEY PENETRATED IT.
I DON'T THINK SO.
OR I DON'T THINK WE KNOW.
AND SO THE SIGNIFICANCE IS WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SOME INFERENCES HERE, ISRAEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN ANTI-NUCLEAR DEAL.
AND NSO IS A COMPANY THAT GETS ITS LICENSE FROM ISRAEL.
SO IT COULD BE SOMETHING RELATED TO THAT.
I HAVE TO SAY THAT HE IS AN OUTLIER.
BECAUSE HIS NUMBER IS A PLUS ONE U.S. NUMBER, HE IS AN OUTLIER.
WE DID NOT FIND MANY OF THOSE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE VERY INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
BECAUSE ISRAEL'S NSO SAYS THEY HAVE AN AUTOMATIC SHUTOFF SWITCH FOR PLUS ONE NUMBERS.
AND YOU KIND OF HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY.
WHY ARE THE AMERICANS AN EXCEPTION?
OR MAYBE THE AMERICANS KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THIS THAN THEY ARE TELLING US AND, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS PART OF THE DEAL.
THEY ALSO SAY THAT RECENTLY THEY PUT BRITAIN ON THAT LIST.
SO AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO SAY OKAY.
WHAT DO -- WHAT DO OUR OWN COUNTRIES KNOW ABOUT NSO?
WELL WE HOPE TO GET ANSWERS FROM YOU.
DANA PRIEST, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR CONTINUING THIS E INVESTIGATION TRYING TO KEEP US SAFE.
> NOW WE'RE TALK THE DRUG POLICY WHICH IS ANOTHER AREA OF POTENTIAL GOVERNMENT OVERREACH INTO OUR PRIVATE LIVES.
SO EVEN AS THE LEGAL CANNABIS INDUSTRY IS BOOMING, THERE WERE STILL MORE THAN A MILLION MARIJUANA ARRESTS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN 2019.
IN HIS NEW BOOK THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS, AUTHOR MICHAEL -- CHALLENGES THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT ALL DRUGS FROM PSYCHEDELICS AND OPIOIDS TO TEA AND COFFEE.
AND HERE HE IS.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU WALTER.
GOOD TO BE HERE.
YOUR GREAT BOOK WHICH I LOVE WHICH IS HOW TO CHANGE A MIND ABOUT PSYCHEDELICS.
NOW YOU HAVE A NEW ONE, THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS AND MANY WAYS RESHAPED THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT DRUGS, ESPECIALLY MIND-ENHANCING OR ALTERING DRUGS.
DO YOU THINK THE WAR ON DRUGS MIGHT BE ENDING BECAUSE OF THIS NEW FEELINGS WE HAVE?
I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT IT IS FADING.
IF NOT ENDING RIGHT AWAY.
THE VOTERS HAVE SPOKEN.
AND THEY ARE SUING FOR PEACE.
YOU KNOW, WE SAW LAST FALL FIVE TRADITIONALLY READ STATES VOTED TO LEGALIZE MARIJUANA.
IN THE STATE OF OREGON THEY VOTED TO DECRIMINALIZE ALL DRUGS, WHICH IS REMARKABLE.
AND SPECIFICALLY TO LEGALIZE THERAPY WITH PSILOCYBIN.
AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE DECRIMINALIZED NATURE BALLOT PROPOSITIONS AND SOLUTIONS GOING THROUGH TO LEGALIZE CERTAIN MEDICINES.
SO I THINK THE VOTERS HAVE HAD IT WITH THE DRUG WAR AND REALIZE ITS BEEN A FAILURE.
AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE POLITICIANS WILL BE CATCHING UP PRETTY SOON.
WHAT WILL PEACE IN THE WAR ON DRUGS LOOK LIKE?
IT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, IN A WAY THINGS WERE SIMPLER WHEN A DRUG WAS EITHER LEGAL OR ILLEGAL.
BUT AS SOON AS YOU DECRIMINALIZE IT OR LEGALIZE IT, THE CULTURE HAS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE SAFEST WAY TO FOLD IT INTO OUR LIVES.
AND THAT IS NOT AT ALL OBVIOUS.
IN THE CASE OF THE PSYCHEDELICS, WE HAVE THIS MEDICAL PATH THAT WE'RE ON.
YOU KNOW, THE FDA IS NOW CONSIDERING APPROVING PSILOCYBIN AND MBMA OR ECSTASY.
AND PRETTY SON LIKE WITHIN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, BOTH THOSE AVAILABLE WITH A PRESCRIPTIONE FROM A DOCTOR.
YOU WON'T GO TO THE CVS TO GET THEM.
IT WILL BE PART OF A TREATMENT PACKAGE WITH PREPARATION AND GUIDING AND INTEGRATION AFTERWARDS.
BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO AREN'T MENTALLY ILL WHO DON'T HAVE A PSYCHIATRIC DIAGNOSIS?
HOW WILL THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THESE DRUGS?
AND THAT'S GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING TO WATCH.
I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DREAMING OF SETTING UP THESE PSYCHEDELIC CLINICS.
WHERE YOU WILL GO.
IT WILL BE LIKE A SPA EXPERIENCE AND THERE WILL BE A DOCTOR THERE TO WRITE THE PRESCRIPTION, BUT IT WON'T BE A MEDICAL PROCEDURE.
AND THAT MAY BE IN OUR FUTURE TOO.
LET'S MOVE ON TO OPIUM-BASED DRUGS.
HOW DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE TREATED?
WELL THEY ARE A HARD CASE BECAUSE THEY HAVE CREATED SUCH A TREMENDOUS PROBLEM.
YOU KNOW, WE JUST SAW A RECORD OVERDOSES IN THE LAST YEAR DURING THE COVID YEAR.
MORE PEOPLE DIED FROM OPIATE OVERDOSE THAN FROM ALCOHOL WHICH IS NOT USUALLY THE CASE.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT MAKING THEM ILLEGAL HAS NOT WORKED IT.
HAS NOT STEMMED USE OR OVERDOSES.
AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT MANY OF THE HARMS WE ASSOCIATE WITH OPIATES ARE THE RESULT OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ILLEGAL.
OVERDOSES ARE OFTEN THE RESULT OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE LACED WITH FENTANYL.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING IN A STREET DRUG.
THE SHARING OF NEEDLES LEADS TO DISEASE.
BECAUSE OF THE CONTAMINATION.
THE CRIME THAT'S OCCURRED TO GET AHOLD OF THESE DRUGS.
P SO I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.
BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH NOVEL APPROACHES.
IN SWITZERLAND, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU ARE AN OPIATE ADDICT, A HEROIN ADDICT, THEY ACTUALLY WRITE YOU A PRESCRIPTION FOR HEROIN.
THEY GIVE YOU PURE HEROIN IN A PROPER DOSE SO YOU WON'T DIE FROM IT.
AND THEN THEY GO TO WORK FIXING YOUR LIFE.
THEY WORK ON YOUR HOUSING.
DO YOU HAVE GOOD HOUSING?
DO YOU HAVE A GOOD JOB?
DO YOU HAVE THERAPEUTIC SUPPORT?
AND ONCE THEY HAVE SOLVED THOSE ISSUES, WITH HEAVY GOVERNMENT SUPPORT, THEN YOU GET OFF THE DRUG.
AND IT IS MUCH EASIER.
THEY UNDERSTAND SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT ABOUT ADDICTION.
WHICH IS THAT ADDICTION IS NOT A DISEASE.
AN ADDICTION IS IN MOST CASES AN ADAPTATION TO THE CONDITIONS OF YOUR LIFE.
IN YOUR NEW BOOK, YOU START OFF POPPIES AND OPIATES, THAT YOU ACTUALLY GREW IN YOUR GARDEN.
AND IT IS AN OLD ESSAY YOU WROTE IN THE 1990S.
BUT YOU REPRINTED WITH SOME OF THE STUFF YOU HAD LEFT OUT FOR LEGAL REASONS.
YEAH.
THEY SAY BACK THEN YOU KIND OF MISS WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TIME WHICH WAS OXYCONTIN WAS COMING ALONG.
TELL ME ABOUT WHY IT WAS SO ILLEGAL TO GROW POPPIES IN YOUR BACKYARD AND YET WE WERE ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN BY PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES?
YEAH.
WELL I DIDN'T JUST MISS IT.
I MISSED IT AS A JOURNALIST.
IT WAS A GREAT CASE WHY WE NEED HISTORY NOT JUST JOURNALISM BECAUSE THERE IS ALL THESE THINGS GOING ON IN ANY GIVEN MOMENT THAT ARE INVISIBLE US TO.
AND AT THE LATE 90s UNDER THE HEIGHT OF THE DRUG WAR UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION THE GOVERNMENT WAS CRACKING DOWN AND ARRESTING PEOPLE IN GREAT NUMBERS INCLUDING FOR THE GROWING OF OPIUM POPS, WHICH BY THE WAY MANY PEOPLE HAVE IN THEIR GARDENS.
THEY ARE LEGAL TO GROW, UNLESS YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, MENS REA THAT THEY ARE A SCHEDULED SUBSTANCE.
IN FACT I HAVE SOME RIGHT HERE.
THESE ARE THE HEADS OF POPPIES THAT I'M GROWING.
PERFECTLY LEGAL.
UNTIL I -- UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT CAN PROVE I HAVE THE INTENT OF TURNING THEM INTO OPIUM.
I HAVE NO SUCH INTENT.
SO IT IS A VERY -- GLAD --ND MICHELLE ARE VERY
SO THE GOVERNMENT WAS CRACKING DOWN ON PEOPLE MAKING OPIUM AT HOME AND GROWING OPIUM.
BECAUSE IT IS ACTUALLY REMARKABLY EASY.
BUT THEY DID IT IN THIS VERY QUIET WAY AND I GOT TANGLED UP IN THIS CAMPAIGN IN THE LATE '90s AND WROTE A PIECE.
BUT ON THE ADVICE OF LAWYERS I CUT OUT TWO SECTIONS.
ONE WHERE I ACTUALLY MADE POPPY TEA WHICH IS THIS MILD NARCOTIC.
I MEAN VERY MILD.
AND THE OTHER IS THE RECIPE FOR DOING AND IT WHAT IT IS LIKE TO TAKE IT.
AND I HAD TO REMOVE THAT.
WHICH I ALWAYS FELT BAD THAT.
ACT OF SELF CENSORSHIP.
SO NOW THAT THE DRUG WAR IS FADING, I HOPE.
I FELT COMFORTABLE REPRINTING IT WITH THE MISSING PAGES.
AND ALSO, I WANTED TO SURROUND THE PIECE WITH SOME CONTEXT THAT I DIDN'T KNOW THEN.
WHICH IS JUST AS YOU SAY THE VERY SUMMER I WAS GROWING OPIUM POPPIES IN 1996 AND GETTING TANGLED UP IN THIS CRAZY DEA CAMPAIGN -- I WAS NEVER ARRESTED BUT PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME WERE.
THEY WERE -- PURDUE PHARMA WAS INTRODUCING OXYCONTIN AND REALLY LAUNCHING THE BIGGEST PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS RELATED TO DRUGS DURING THE DRUG WAR.
WHICH IS TO SAY FDA APPROVED DRUGS.
AND IN A WAY THAT IRONY, IF WE CAN CALL IT THAT HAS -- I THINK HAS REMOVED A LOT OF THE AUTHORITY OF THE DRUG WAR THAT.
THE BIGGEST PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM RELATED TO DRUGS CAME OUT OF A FDA-APPROVED SUBSTANCE BEEN SOLD BY A PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY, NOT THE E ILLICIT MARKET.
THERE WERE ONLY 5,000 OPIATE ADDICTS IN 1996.
THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS NOW.
AND MOST APPEAR TO START WITH A PRECIPITATION FOR LEGAL OPIATES.
SO YEAH.
WE MISSED THE BOAT.
COMPLETELY MISSED THE BOAT THERE.
I DID AND CERTAINLY THE GOVERNMENT DID.
WHEN AGAINST A REALLY HARD OPIUM BASED DRUGS LIKE HEROIN, WHY WOULD WE REALLY WANT TO ALLOW ANYBODY TO USE THEM?
WELL PEOPLE ARE GOING TO USE THEM WHETHER WE ALLOW OR NOT.
THE CHALLENGE IS MAKE IT AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.
THE APPROACH IS HARM REDUCTION.
YOU LOOK AT HOW YOU LIMIT THE HARM TO INDIVIDUALS AND TO SOCIETY.
AND PROHIBITION ISN'T NECESSARILY THE BEST PATH TO REDUCING HARMS, AS WE'VE SEEN.
I DON'T -- I'M NOT ARGUING FOR LEGALIZATION OF HEROIN.
AND CERTAINLY NOT COMMERCIALIZATION.
I DON'T WANT TO SEE A SITUATION AS WE HAVE WITH CANNABIS WHERE YOU HAVE CAPITALISM PUSHING THESE DRUGS ON PEOPLE.
BUT I'M REALLY TALKING ABOUT TAKING AWAY THE CRIMINAL PENALTIES, FUNNELING PEOPLE INTO DRUG TREATMENT WHERE APPROPRIATS OF THEIR LIVES THAT ARE CAUSING THEM TO BECOME ADDICTED.
THE THERE IS A LOT OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES TOO WITH PEOPLE WHO BECOME ADDICTED.
A VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF ADDICTS HAVE SUFFERED TRAUMA IN THEIR LIVES.
THAT COMES UP OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
AND SO YOU SEE THE NEED FOR PSYCHE THERAPY IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
AND IT IS JUST A DIFFERENT WAY OF THINKING ABOUT ADDICTION.
MUCH OF WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT DETECTIVE DRUGS COMES FROM THESE EXPERIMENT WE ALL HEARD ABOUT.
PUT A RAT IN A CAGE AND TWO LEVERS.
AND ONE ADMINISTERS COCAINE OR WHATEVER TO THEIR VEINS AND THE OTHER SUGAR WATER AND THAT GO FOR THE CHEMICAL UNTIL THEY ARE.
AND THEN THIS PSYCHOLOGIST IN BRITISH COLUMBIA NAMED BRUCE ALEXANDER TESTED THIS IDEA.
HE CREATED -- HE THOUGHT MAYBE THE PROBLEM IS THE CAGE.
AND SO HE CREATED A BEAUTIFUL CAGE FOR RATS THAT HAD LOTS OF SPACE, THAT HAD TOYS AND THAT HAD GOOD FOOD AND OTHER RATS TO.
AND HE FOUND IN THAT SITUATION, THEY DID NOT CHOOSE THE MORPHINE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
THEY SAMPLED IT.
BUT THEY STUCK WITH THE WATER.
HE DECIDED WAS AN ADAPTATION TO THEIR CONDITIONS.
SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONDITIONS OF THE CAGE, NOT JUST THE CHEMICAL.
AREN'T THERE CERTAIN THINGS IN THE CHEMICAL THAT CAUSE IT TO BE ADDICTIVE.
YEAH THERE ARE.
THESE CHEMICALS HAVE HOOKED IN THEM.
IF YOU TAKE SOMETHING THAT'S CONTINUALLY RELEASING DOPAMINE INTO YOUR SYSTEM, OVER TIME YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO BECOME ADDICTED THAN IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE IT.
WHAT'S ODD AND INTERESTING IS THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, EVEN WHO USE HARD DRUGS DON'T BECOME ADDICTED SO IT IS NOT ALL THE CHEMICAL.
OR LOOK AT CIGARETTES.
YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD THINK IF IT WAS SIMPLY A NICOTINE ADDICTION, THAT IF YOU GAVE SOMEONE A PATCH OR GUM, NICOTINE GUM, THEY WOULD BE FINE.
BUT THEY ARE NOT.
IT ONLY WORKS ON ABOUT 17% OF PEOPLE.
SO THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON TOO AND THAT IS AS MUCH AS WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE DRUG HAS RISKS AND WITHOUT QUESTION IT HAS SERIOUS RISKS.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
IN VIETNAM.
20% OF AMERICAN SERVICEMEN WERE ADDICTED TO HEROIN.
THEY ARE USING IT IN COUNTRY.
AND EVERYBODY WORRIED WHEN THEY GOT BACK AFTER THE WAR THAT WE'D HAVE THIS EPIDEMIC OF HEROIN ADDICTS ON OUR STREETS.
95% OF THEM SIMPLY GOT OFF OF IT EVEN WITHOUT TREATMENT.
DIDN'T MATTER IF THEY HAD TREATMENT OR NOT.
WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
WELL, THE CONDITION OF THEIR CAGE CHANGED.
THEY WERE BACK IN THEIR OLD PATTERNS OF LIFE.
THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT -- DIDN'T HAVE THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LEAD TO ADDICTION ANYMORE.
AND THEY GOT BETTER.
THEY KICKED IT.
SO I THINK THAT THAT'S A VERY STRONG ARGUMENT THAT IT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL.
LET'S TALK ABOUT PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS, WHICH WAS THE SUBJECT OF YOUR LAST BOOK AND THE LAST START OF YOUR CURRENT BOOK.
WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS AND THEN WHAT ARE THE DOWNSIDE OF HUMANS USING PLANT-BASED PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS, RANGING FROM MUSHROOMS TO LSD I GUESS?
YEAH AND A BUNCH OF OTHERS.
AYAHUASCA IS ANOTHER ONE.
DMT.
WELL, THIS CLASS OF DRUGS WAS MADE ILLEGAL IN 1970 WITH THE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT.
PRESIDENT NIXON REALLY WENT TO WAR ON PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS.
SO AFTER BANNING THE DRUGS AND SOCIETY, IT'S BEEN VERYLY IN DISRUPTIVE, A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS BEGINNING AROUND THE YEAR 2000 HAVE BEEN RE-EXAMINING THEIR POTENTIAL AS THERAPEUTIC TOOLS.
AND THEY HAD BEEN USED THAT A WAY IN THE '50s WITH GREAT SUCCESS ACTUALLY TO TREAT THE DISTRESS OF PEOPLE WITH TERMINAL CANCER DIAGNOSES, TO TREAT ALCOHOLICS.
AND THEY WERE GETTING GOOD RESULTS.
BUT AFTER THE BACKLASH AGAINST PSYCHEDELICS, ALL THAT RESEARCH STOPPED IN THE EARLY '70s.
IT WAS REVIVED AROUND 2000 IN A SERIES OF EXPERIMENTS DONE AT JOHNS HOPKINS, NYU, UCLA.
AND THEY FOUND THAT THESE ARE VERY EFFECTIVE TREATMENTS FOR DEPRESSION, FOR ADDICTION, FOR THE DISTRESS OF PEOPLE WITH A CANCER DIAGNOSIS.
AND THEY GOT REMARKABLE RESULTS.
AND MDMA WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY A PSYCHEDELIC BUT IT IS ALSO AN ILLICIT RECREATIONAL DRUG SO CALLED IT IS ECSTASY OR MOLLY.
AND THEY HAVE FOUND IN PAPERS JUST PUBLISHED IN THE LAST MONTH OR TWO THAT THAT IS VERY EFFECTIVE IN TREATING PTSD.
SO THIS CLASS OF DRUGS IS UNDERGOING THIS TRANSFORMATION REALLY IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THEM.
WHAT'S EXCITING ABOUT THEM IS THEY DON'T SEEM TO JUST TREAT SYMPTOMS OF MENTAL ILLNESS.
BUT THEY SEEM TO ADDRESS CAUSESO CURES.
NOW THESE ARE ONLY PHASE 2 TRIALS.
THEY STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH PHASE 3 TRIALS WHICH ARE MUCH LARGER BUT THAT IS UNDER WAY NOW AND I THINK WE ARE MOVING TO A COMPLETE RECLASSIFICATION OF SOME OF THESE DRUGS AS POTENTIALLY THERAPEUTIC AIDS.
THE MOST LYRICAL SECTION OF YOUR NEW BOOK 'THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS' INVOLVES MY FAVORITE PLANT-BASED DRUG.
AND I SAW YOU TAKING SOME SIPS THIS MORNING AS WELL.
MY TEA, YES.
CAFFEINE.
WHY IS IT THAT CAFFEINE IS SO SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE WHERE IS OTHER PLANT-BASED DRUGS ARE NOT?
YEAH SO THAT IS A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION.
THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS GREAT ARBITRARY SENSE OF THIS DRUG WE DEMONIZE, THIS ONE WE ALLOW.
TOBACCO AND ALCOHOL ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN MOST OF THE ILLICIT DRUGS.
I THINK IT HAS TO DO IF WHETHER A DRUG IS PERCEIVED OF LUBRICATING THE WHEELS OF SOCIETY OR MUCKING THEM UP.
AND CAFFEINE PAR EXCELLENCE IS THE DRUG THAT LUBRICATES OUR WORLD.
SOCIAL LIFE, CAPITALISM, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T NEED ANY BIGGER EXPLANATION OR ARGUMENT FOR JUST LOOK AT THE INSTITUTION OF THE COFFEE BREAK.
OKAY?
THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE OUR EMPLOYERS ACTUALLY GIVE US A FREE DRUG, CAFFEINE IN THE FORM OF COFFEE OR TEA.
AND THEN THEY GIVE US PAID TIME IN WHICH TO ENJOY IT.
WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT?
THEY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE CAFFEINE MAKES US BETTER WORKERS.
IT MAKES US MORE EFFICIENT.
IT MAKES US MORE FOCUSED.
IT GIVES US GREATER ENDURANCE.
IT ALLOWS US TO WORK LONG HOURS.
IT IS, YOU KNOW -- I THINK IT IS ONE OF THE PRECONDITIONS FOR THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
YOU NEEDED A WORKFORCE THAT WAS NOT DRUNK ALL THE TIME.
WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE INTRODUCTION OF CAFFEINE TO EUROPE, WHICH HAPPENS IN THE 17th CENTURY, PEOPLE DRANK MORNING, NOON AND NIGHT.
BECAUSE ALCOHOL WAS SAFER THAN WATER.
WATER WAS CONTAMINATED.
AND THE FERMENTATION IN ALCOHOL WOULD KILL MICROBES.
COFFEE AND TEA COME ALONG, AND YOU BASICALLY TO AN EXTENT DISPLACE ALCOHOL AS THE EVERY DAY DRINK.
AND YOU ARE GIVING PEOPLE A DRINK THAT ALLOWS THEM TO WORK MORE EFFECTIVELY, BE MORE RATIONAL, THINK IN A MORE LINEAR WAY.
IT ACTUALLY USHERS IN A NEW FORM OF CONSCIOUSNESS TO THE WEST.
AND THAT FORM OF CONSCIOUSNESS CONTRIBUTES TO THINGS LIKE THE ENLIGHTENMENT, THE AGE OF REASON IN ENGLAND AND THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
SO IT IS A HUGE DEAL.
CAFFEINE CHANGED OUR WORLD.
AND YOU CAN ARGUE FOR THE GOOD OR FOR THE -- WELL, FOR THE GOOD OF CIVILIZATION, CERTAINLY, OUR STANDARD OF LIVING.
BUT IT ALSO DISCONNECTED US WITH NATURE IN A WAY.
BEFORE CAFFEINE WE STOPPED WORK WHEN THE SUN WENT DOWN.
OUR CIRCADIAN RHYTHMS WERE TIED TO THAT OF THE SEASONS AND NATURE.
SO WHETHER IT WAS BETTER FOR THE SPECIES OR NOT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION BUT IT WAS CERTAINLY BETTER FOR OUR CIVILIZATION.
MICHAEL B SAFE, STAY CAREFUL.
THANK YOU WALTER.
GREAT TALKING TO YOU.
SGLRCHLTS ON THAT CONFLICTING THOUGHT, SECURITY GUARDS ARE MIXING IT UP AND GETTING MORE INVOLVED THAN EVER WITH THE EXHIBITIONS THEY WATCH OVER.
ENTITLED GUARDING THE ART, IT WILL BE CHOSEN FROM THE MUSEUM'S IN HOUSE COLLECTION.
BUT FIRSTHAND PICKED BY 17 SECURITY OFFICERS.
IT IS PART OF DISRUPTING THE HIERARCHY.
WHO SPENDS MORE TIME AMONGST THE ART AND THE VISITORS THAN THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SAFE GUARD IT?
THE EXHIBITION WILL ACTUALLY OPEN IN MARCH 2022.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
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