July 24, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> NETANYAHU FACES THE U.S. CONGRESS, AMID PROTESTS AND BOYCOTTS OVER HIS HANDLING OF THE WAR IN GAZA.

BUT FOCUS REMAINS ON KAMALA HARRIS, NOW IN FULL CAMPAIGN MODE.

WE BREAK IT DOWN WITH JOURNAL U.S. SUSAN GLASSER, AND FORMER CIA DIRECTOR LEON PANETTA.

>>> THEN -- AS VENEZUELA VOTES THIS SUNDAY, COULD AN OPPOSITION CANDIDATE FINALLY UNSEAT PRESIDENT MADURO?

I DISCUSS WHAT'S AT STAKE WITH FORMER VENEZUELAN MAYOR DAVID SMOLANSKY.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT CAMPAIGNING AGAINST JOE BIDEN IS NOT THE SAME AS CAMPAIGNING AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS.

>> WILL TRUMP CHANGE TACTICS?

MICHEL MARTIN ASKS ATLANTIC WRITER TIM ALBERTA ABOUT NEW POLITICAL STRATEGIES AFTER BIDEN DROPS OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ALL EYES ARE ON KAMALA HARRIS AS SHE FACES HER FIRST MAJOR FOREIGN POLICY TEST.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS IN WASHINGTON TO ADDRESS CONGRESS AMID PROTESTS OVER HIS HANDLING THE WAR IN GAZA AND NEGOTIATIONS OVER A CEASE-FIRE DEAL LOOM LARGE.

SO, WILL HER FOREIGN POLICY BE A DEPARTURE FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN'S?

AND HOW IT WILL MATCH UP AGAINST DONALD TRUMP?

NETANYAHU'S VISIT TO WASHINGTON HAS ALSO BEEN OVERSHADOWED BY THE POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE, THAT IS, JOE BIDEN'S WITHDRAWAL FROM THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

THE PRESIDENT HAS NOW RETURNED TO THE WHITE HOUSE AFTER RECOVERING FROM COVID TO DISCUSS HOW HIS POTENTIAL SUCCESSOR MIGHT HANDLE NETANYAHU'S VISIT AND WHAT POLICY IN A HARRIS PRESIDENCY MIGHT LOOK LIKE, WE HAVE LEON PANETTA, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR AND WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, HE WORE MULTIPLE HATS.

ALSO JOINING US IS SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER AT "THE NEW YORKER".

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

SUSAN, LET ME START OF YOU.

FROM THE LITTLE THAT WE'VE SEEN OF KAMALA HARRIS'S FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTISE AND VIEWS, WHAT DO YOU THINK A HARRIS FOREIGN POLICY PRESIDENCY WOULD LOOK LIKE, AND WOULD IT DIFFER AND DEVIATE MUCH FROM BIDEN'S?

>> WELL, LOOK, KAMALA HARRIS IS SOMEWHAT UNTESTED, CERTAINLY RELATIVE TO JOE BIDEN WHEN IT COPS TO FOREIGN POLICY, OF COURSE, HE HAD DECADES OF EXPERIENCE, HE WAS THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, VICE PRESIDENT FOR EIGHT YEARS.

YOU KNOW, SO, WE HAD A VERY CLEAR SENSE, NOT JUST OF INDIVIDUAL POLICIES WITH JOE BIDEN, BUT HIS WORLD VIEW.

HE'S A COMMITTED TRANSATLANTICIST, HE'S DEEPLY INVOLVED WITH NATO.

HARRIS NOT OUT OF DEMOCRATIC POLICIES AND POLICY HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., BUT MUCH MORE AS A PROSECUTOR, AS AN ELECTED ATTORNEY GENERAL IN CALIFORNIA STATE POLITICS.

I THINK THE LAST FOUR YEARS HAS BEEN CRUCIAL FOR HER IN TERPS OF FOREIGN POLICY, BECAUSE SHE'S GAINED SO MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE AS BIDEN'S VICE PRESIDENT.

SHE'S TRAVELED REPEATEDLY, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, SHE'S FLOWN ALL AROUND THE WORLD, SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN ASIA, AS WELL.

SO, I DON'T THINK SHE'S GOING TO MARK A RADICAL CHANGE FROM JOE BIDEN, WERE SHE TO WIN ELECTION, BUT I DO THINK IT'S MUCH LESS CLEAR THAT SHE HAS THAT VISCERAL ATTACHMENT TO THE KIND OF LIBERAL INTERNATIONALISM OF THE 20TH CENTURY THAT SHAPED JOE BIDEN, BUT AGAIN, ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING FOR HER TO MAKE A BIG BREAK WITH BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY DURING THE CAMPAIGN, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A LIKELY THING.

IT'S MUCH MORE WHAT APPROACH SHE'D TAKE TO DECISIONS IN THE OVAL OFFICE THAT IS THE QUESTION MARK FOR ME.

>> SECRETARY PANETTA, YOU SIGNED AN OPEN LETTER, ALONG WITH SOME OF THE MOST SENIOR FOREIGN POLICY LEADERS IN THE U.S., EXPRESSING YOUR CONFIDENCE THAT KAMALA HARRIS IS, QUOTE, THE BEST QUALIFIED PERSON TO LEAD OUR NATION AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

WHAT MAKES YOU SO CONFIDENT IN HER LEADERSHIP?

AND LET'S START WITH THE FOREIGN POLICY ANGLE FIRST.

>> WELL, I'VE KNOWN KAMALA HARRIS COMING BACK TO CALIFORNIA FOR A LONG TIME.

AND SHE IS A PROSECUTOR, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, SHE'S A PRAGMATIST IN HOW SHE APPROACHES ISSUES.

AND SHE LEARNS WELL.

AND I THINK SHE HAS, IN FACT, AS VICE PRESIDENT, BEEN PRESENT AND WORKED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN ON DEVELOPING OUR FOREIGN POLICY.

THIS IS A DANGEROUS WORLD.

IT'S A DANGEROUS WORLD WE'RE LIVING IN.

BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA, NORTH KOREA, IRAN, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT DEMANDS THAT THE UNITED STATES PLAY A ROLE AS A WORLD LEADER IN THAT KIND OF WORLD, WORKING WITH OUR ALLIES.

THAT REALLY IS KIND OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE THAT GUIDES UNITED STATES POLICY.

AND I THINK KAMALA HARRIS HAS PRETTY MUCH UNDERSTOOD THE IMPORTANCE OF THE UNITED STATES CONTINUING TO PLAY THAT ROLE, IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT OUR NATION SECURITY, SO, I FEEL VERY COMFORTABLE WITH HER AND HER APPROACH TO DEALING WITH NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> WELL, THE FIRST BIG ISSUE, OBVIOUSLY, HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

RIGHT NOW, WITH THE PRESENCE OF THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL GIVING A SPEECH TODAY, AND THEN ALSO MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, TAKES ON A WHOLE DIFFERENT MEANING NOW, GIVEN THAT SHE WILL LIKELY BE THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, AND THEN ENDING THE WEEK WITH A MEETING WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN FLORIDA.

SUSAN, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE DECISION BY THE VICE PRESIDENT NOT TO ATTEND TODAY'S -- TODAY'S SPEECH?

WITH THE PRIME MINISTER.

SHE SAYS THAT IT'S A SCHEDULING ISSUE, THAT SHE HAD HER SCHEDULE TO TRAVEL LONG BEFORE, ONE WOULD IMAGINE SHE COULD HAVE CHANGED THAT, BUT I'M JUST CURIOUS, HOW MUCH WEIGHT SHOULD ONE PUT INTO THAT, GIVEN THE ROLE THAT WE KNOW SHE'S HAD IN THIS ADMINISTRATION WITH REGARDS TO THE WAR IN GAZA, AND THAT IS REALLY FOCUSING, MANY WOULD SAY, MORE SO ON THE PLIGHT OF THE PALESTINIANS AND THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS?

>> YEAH, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE OF HOW MUCH TO SUPPORT ISRAEL AND HOW CRITICAL OF ISRAEL TO BE HAS ONE THAT'S BEEN VERY DIVISIVE FOR DEMOCRATS IN THIS ELECTION YEAR.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GOTTEN A FAIR AMOUNT OF BLOW-BACK, ESPECIALLY FROM YOUNGER PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS.

I THINK THERE IS A SENSE AMONG THOSE VOTERS THAT HARRIS MAY BE MORE INCLINED TO THEIR POINT OF VIEW, MORE CRITICAL, PERHAPS, OF ISRAEL AND CERTAINLY OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU THAN PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHOSE ATTACHMENT TO THE COUNTRY AS WE KNOW GOES BACK TO HIS OFT REPEATED STORY OF GOING TO VISIT ISRAEL IN THE 1970S, IF YOU'VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION AT ALL, YOU'VE HEARD HIM TELL THAT STORY THIS YEAR.

IT'S NOT THE SAME FOR VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, AND MY OWN REPORTING SUGGESTS THAT SHE DEFINITELY HAS BEEN ON THE INSIDE ONE OF THE VOICES MORE CRITICAL OF ISRAEL, MORE PUSHING THE ADMINISTRATION TO FOCUS EFFORTS ON HUMANITARIAN RELIEF FOR PALESTINIANS, FOR XAP EXAMPLE.

SO, SHE'S NOT GOING TO PUBLICLY BREAK WITH BIDEN, I DON'T THINK, ON THIS ISSUE, BUT I DO THINK POLITICALLY SPEAKING FOR HER, IT'S NOT ADVANTAGEOUS, THE WEEK SHE'S BECOME THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, TO BE SITTING THERE PRESIDING OVER THIS EVENT WITH NETANYAHU.

MANY DEMOCRATIC VOTERS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR VIEWS ON ISRAEL, HAVE REALLY SOURED ON NETANYAHU.

I WOULD POINT OUT, THAT'S TRUE OF ISRAELI VOTERS, AS WELL, WHO ARE VERY DOWN ON NETANYAHU.

SO, I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT SHE MADE THE DECISION TO SKIP THIS, AND TO, YOU KNOW, SHE'S IN THE CRUCIAL EARLY DAYS OF INTRODUCING HERSELF AS A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND CAMPAIGNING AS THE CANDIDATE.

THIS IS REALLY ONLY HER SECOND DAY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL DOING THAT, AND I'M NOT SURPRISED SHE MADE THAT CHOICE.

BUT I THINK DEMOCRATS HAVE SOME HOPE THIS WILL BE LESS DIVISIVE FOR THEM AND LESS HURTFUL FOR THEM AS AN ISSUE THAN IT WAS WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

>> AND SECRETARY PANETTA, WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE THE VICE PRESIDENT AS SHE CAMPAIGNS GOING FORWARD, BECAUSE, SADLY, THIS WAR IS LIKELY NOT EXPECTED TO END BEFORE THE ELECTION.

SOME MAY SAY THAT IF THERE'S ANY SIGNS OF DISTANCE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, THAT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR MORE DISCORD AND DISRUPTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND PERHAPS MORE VIOLENCE FROM ENEMIES OF BOTH COUNTRIES, BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL.

HOW DOES SHE THREAD THAT NEEDLE, BY ON THE ONE HAND, SAYING THAT THE SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL REMAINS SOLID, BUT ALSO EXPRESSING HER CONCERNS ABOUT SOME OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S POLICIES AND HOW THIS WAR'S BEING CONDUCTED?

>> I HAVE -- I HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN HER ABILITY TO LEARN JUST EXACTLY HOW SHE'S GOT TO WALK THROUGH SOME TOUGH ISSUES.

THIS ONE, IN PARTICULAR, I THINK IS GROUNDED IN A POLICY WHERE I THINK, YOU KNOW, ALMOST EVERY ELEMENT AGREES, WHICH IS THAT WE'VE GOT TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE IN THAT -- IN THAT WAR.

THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE THAT'S BEEN NEGOTIATED, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT THAT, BUT A CEASE-FIRE THAT ALLOWS FOR THE EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES, THAT ALLOWS FOR GREATER STABILITY IN GAZA, AND ALLOWS THE PALESTINIANS TO RECEIVE THE KIND OF ASSISTANCE THAT THEY NEED, AND ALSO THE ABILITY TO TRY TO HOPEFULLY DEVELOP A PALESTINIAN APPROACH TO PROVIDING SOME KIND OF GOVERNANCE FOR THE PALESTINIANS, ALL OF THAT IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO BE RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE KAMALA HARRIS IS.

AND AS LONG AS SHE STAYS ON THOSE FUNDAMENTALS, I THINK SHE'LL BE IN GOOD SHAPE IN TERMS OF HER POSITIONING ON THE MIDDLE EAST.USAN, ON OTHER FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES, NAMELY UKRAINE AND ASIA, EVERYTHING I'M HEARING IS THAT SHE WILL LIKELY BE MORE IN LOCK-STEP WITH THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT BIDEN RIGHT NOW, AND PURSUE SOME OF HIS POLICIES AND STATEMENTS REGARDING U.S.

COMMITMENT TO ALLIANCES, BOTH IN ASIA AND IN EUROPE.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FOR YOU FROM SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN, WHILE HE SAID HE WON'T ENGAGE IN POLITICS, HERE'S WHAT HE DID SAY ABOUT THE VICE PRESIDENT.

>> WHAT I'VE OBSERVED IS SOMEONE WHO ASKS TIME AND AGAIN THE PENETRATING QUESTIONS, WHO CUTS TO THE CHASE, AND IS INTENSELY FOCUSED ON THE INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND MAKING SURE THAT OUR FOREIGN POLICY IS DOING EVERYTHING IT CAN TO ADVANCE THOSE INTERESTS.

>> ABOUT AS DIPLOMATIC AS AN ENDORSEMENT AS YOU WOULD EXPECT FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE REPORTING IN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" THIS WEEK, AS WOULD BE EXPECTED OF ANY NEW ADMINISTRATION, EVEN IF IT'S ONE THAT WAS AFFILIATED WITH THE CURRENT AND PREVIOUS, THEY DO BRING IN THEIR OWN ADVISERS, BUT THERE HAD BEEN RAISED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE LIKE ANTONY BLINKEN AND JAKE SULLIVAN AND THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE LLOYD AUSTIN, THAT THEY WOULD LIKELY LEAVE, AND THEN THE QUESTION REMAINS, WHO WOULD BE ADVISING HER?

WHO WOULD BE HER FOREIGN POLICY TEAM?

BECAUSE ASIDE FROM PHIL GORDON, NOT MUCH IS KNOWN IN THAT RESPECT.

>> NO, THAT'S RIGHT.

I DON'T THINK, YOU KNOW, KAMALA HARRIS DOESN'T BRING TO THE VICE PRESIDENT A LARGE CADRE OF HER OWN FOREIGN POLICY ADVISERS OR OFFICIALS, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS NEW TO THE SENATE, SHE CAME FROM A CAREER IN CALIFORNIA POLITICS, SO, IT'S DIFFERENT FROM HILLARY CLINTON WHO HAD DECADES OF PULLING TOGETHER PEOPLE, INCLUDING A STINT AS SECRETARY OF STATE.

I DO KNOW PHIL GORDON, HARRIS'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, WELL IN RECENT YEARS, HE'S WORKED AS A TOP ADVISER TO PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS ON BOTH THE MIDDLE EAST AND EUROPE, SO, HE'S DEEPLY FAMILIAR, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE RANGE OF THOSE ISSUES.

HE'S BEEN WORKING WITH HER SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HER TENURE AS VICE PRESIDENT.

I THINK YOU'D SEE A FAIR AMOUNT OF CONTINUITY IN TERMS OF DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY OFFICIALS, CERTAINLY FEELING COMFORTABLE WORKING FOR HARRIS.

SHE REPRESENTS, I THINK, A FAIR AMOUNT OF CONTINUITY.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE A WORLD VIEW THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT, SHE'S NOT LOOKING -- SHE'S NOT MADE ANY SPEECHES OR GIVEN ANY INDICATION, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT SHE WOULD WANT TO DRAMATICALLY PULL BACK OR REORIENT AMERICAN PRESENCE IN THE WORLD.

SHE'S CERTAINLY NOT A LIBERAL VERSION OF AN AMERICAN FIRSTER IN ANY WAY.

SHE SAID VERY, VERY STRONG THINGS IN TERMS OF THE U.S.

COMMITMENT TO UKRAINE AND AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE THREATS POSED BY RUSSIA, AS WELL AS CHINA.

SO, I THINK YOU WOULD SEE CONTINUITY.

WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR IS THIS QUESTION, IF SHE BECOMES PRESIDENT, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT HER INSTINCTS WOULD BE, BECAUSE PRESIDENTS HAVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF POWER TO MAKE NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS, AND, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT THAT DECADES OF EXPERIENCE, THAT COMFORT ZONE, YOU WONDER WHETHER SHE MIGHT BE MORE CAUTIOUS IN SOME WAYS THAN SOMEONE LIKE JOE BIDEN, WHO HAS THE COURAGE OF HIS CONVICTIONS, AFTER YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF THINKING THROUGH THESE THINGS.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE, BIDEN HAS VERY STRONGLY HELD PRECONCEIVED VIEWS.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY NOT TRUE OF KAMALA HARRIS, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

>> YEAH, AND THAT'S SAID TO BE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA CHOSE JOE BIDEN TO BE HIS VICE PRESIDENT, FOR THAT VERY REASON, GIVEN HIS YEARS IN FOCUSING ON -- AND EXPERTISE ON FOREIGN POLICY.

AND THAT'S WHY I WANT TO TURN TO YOU, SECRETARY PANETTA, FOR ONE OF THE HATS YOU THAT WORE, A VERY IMPORTANT ONE, AND THAT IS CHIEF OF STAFF, BECAUSE IT -- I DON'T WANT TO GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES, BUT THIS SORT OF FITS THE SAME CONVERSATION ABOUT WHO -- WHO THE VICE PRESIDENT SURROUNDS HERSELF WITH.

AND THERE HAS BEEN SOME CONCERN OVER HER PAST STAFF AND SUPPORT TEAM, WHETHER THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF TURNOVER, THERE WAS IN-FIGHTING, IF SHE WASN'T SURROUNDED BY THE TOP PEOPLE THAT SHE SHOULD BE.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT, GIVEN THAT SHE NOW ONLY HAS A MATTER OF A FEW WEEKS TO REALLY SHOW THE NATION, UNDECIDED VOTERS, EVEN DEMOCRATS, WHO SHE REALLY IS, AND WHAT HER POLICY POSITIONS ARE?

>> WELL, LOOK, I -- I THINK YOU'RE KIND OF DEALING WITH TWO STAGES HERE.

ONE IS, OBVIOUSLY, THE CAMPAIGN, AND I THINK SHE'S PRETTY MUCH GOT TO STAY ON TRACK WITH KIND OF THE FOREIGN POLICY POSITIONS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN, AND SHE'S SUPPORTED, AND BASICALLY DEFEND THOSE POSITIONS.

AND FRANKLY, IT'S GOING TO BE EASY WITH TRUMP, WHO IS AN AMERICA FIRST ISOLATIONIST, WHO DOESN'T HAVE A TREMENDOUS REGARD FOR ANY ALLIANCES, AND FOR AMERICA PLAYING ANY KIND OF WORLD LEADERSHIP.

SO, I THINK SHE IS WELL EQUIPPED TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUES IN THE CAMPAIGN.

FRANKLY, I LOOK ON A PRESIDENT AS A GOOD THING, VERY FRANKLY, IF THEY AREN'T NECESSARILY STEEPED IN LONG EXPERIENCE IN A PARTICULAR ISSUE.

WHAT IT WILL DO IS IT WILL GIVE THEM A GREATER OPPORTUNITY TO BRING SMART PEOPLE INTO THE ROOM.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED.

I THINK PRESIDENTS NEED TO HAVE SMART PEOPLE IN THE ROOM WHO ARE PROVIDING ADVICE ON DIFFERENT ISSUES.

NOT THOSE THAT KIND OF RUBBER STAMP PAST POLICY, NOT JUST STAFF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALWAYS KIND OF TRIED TO PLEASE THEIR PRINCIPLE, BUT TO REALLY HAVE STRONG ADVISERS WHO CAN PRESENT THEIR EXPERIENCE AND THEIR GUIDANCE TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY SEASON, AND I THINK SOMETIMES WE'VE MISSED THAT OPPORTUNITY FOR PRESIDENTS TO REALLY OPEN UP AND BE INVOLVED WITH OTHER SMART PEOPLE IN THE ROOM.

>> WELL, SUSAN, AN OPPORTUNITY WE KNOW REPUBLICANS ARE ALREADY USING RIGHT NOW AND EASING UPON IS HER ROLE AS THE COORDINATOR THERE, OVERSEER AT A POINT EARLY ON IN THIS ADMINISTRATION FOR THE ROOT CAUSE OF IMMIGRATION.

REPUBLICANS ARE CALLING THIS A BORDER CZAR TITLE SHE HAD, THAT'S NOT THE CASE, BUT WE KNOW THAT WAS AN EARLY FUMBLE, AN OWN GOAL ON HER PART, GIVEN HOW SHE HANDLED THAT ISSUE, AS BIG AS IT IS, AND HOW UNTENABLE THE SITUATION REALLY WAS AT THE TIME.

SHE CLEARLY HAS STEPPED UP ON OTHER ISSUES, BUT WITH REGARDS TO THE BORDER, HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR HER TO GET THIS RIGHT, AND TO SORT OF BEAT BACK THIS NARRATIVE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE ALREADY PAINTING?

>> YEAH, NO, THEY'VE DEFINITELY BEEN TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, ATTACK HER ON THIS.

NOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS ANNOUNCED NEW POLICIES IN RECENT MONTHS THAT HAVE LED TO THE NUMBERS GOING DOWN IN TERMS OF WHO IS COMING OVER THE BORDER.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

QUITE FRANKLY, BIANNA, I THINK THAT BECAUSE THIS ISSUE IS SO SALIENT AND SO ACTIVATED, SO MANY REPUBLICAN VOTERS, DONALD TRUMP BELIEVES THAT IMMIGRATION IS THE REASON HE BECAME PRESIDENT IN THE FIRST PLACE IN 2016, I WAS AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION LAST WEEK IN MILWAUKEE, BELIEVE ME, THAT WAS THE BIGGEST APPLAUSE LINE, ANY MENTION OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, ALIENS, THE SO-CALLED CARAVANS, YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT IS TRIGGERING AND SHAPING REPUBLICAN VOTERS IN THEIR SUPPORT RIGHT NOW FOR TRUMP.

SO, I'LL BE LISTENING VERY CLOSELY TO SEE WHETHER KAMALA HARRIS EVEN ENGAGES ON THIS.

I CERTAINLY HAVE A THEORY OF THE CASE RIGHT NOW THAT ALMOST ANY VOTER IN AMERICA THAT CARES FOREMOST ABOUT IMMIGRATION, WHO MAKES THAT THEIR FIRST OR SECOND VOTING ISSUE IS PROBABLY ALREADY SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP IN THIS ELECTION.

SO, I'M CURIOUS IF THEY'RE GOING TO ENGAGE ON THIS ISSUE WITH HER, OR JUST GOING TO FOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT SHE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT.

>> YEAH.

AND THAT IS HER HISTORY, RIGHT, AS A PROSECUTOR, OBVIOUSLY, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, AND THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, AND I'M IMAGINING THEY WILL CONTINUE PURSUING THIS ARGUMENT, WAS THAT THEY HAD A VERY CONSERVATIVE, STRONG, BIPARTISAN BILL WITH SUPPORT FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE UP UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE, THAT IT APPEARS DONALD TRUMP KILLED, SO, THAT, TOO, IS A WAY THAT THEY'RE COMING BACK AT THAT, AT THAT ATTACK LINE.

SECRETARY, LET ME TURN TO THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH TONIGHT, AND JUST -- THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE MOMENT.

WE'VE ONLY SEEN A FEW SIMILAR MOMENTS IN PAST U.S. HISTORY.

THIS ONE COMES AT A TIME WHEN THE U.S. IS NOT CAUGHT IN A NEVER-ENDING WAR OVERSEAS, AND IT'S COMING VERY CLOSE TO THE ELECTION ITSELF.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE LEGACY OF PRESIDENT BIDEN, AS HE'S FINISHING UP THE LAST SIX MONTHS OF HIS TERM?

>> WELL, I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

LOOK, I -- I THINK HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION FOR HIMSELF AND FOR THE COUNTRY.

I'M SURE IT WAS NOT EASY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION.

AND YOU COULD JUST SENSE IT THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE BACK IN THIS RACE.

THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT AND ENTHUSIASM WITH REGARDS TO KAMALA HARRIS, THAT WAS LACKING, SO, I THINK WE'RE IN A GOOD PLACE, AND I THINK WHAT HE CAN DO IS BASICALLY SAY, LOOK, I MADE THE RIGHT DECISION FOR THE COUNTRY.

I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CONTINUE TO DEVELOP THE POLICIES THAT I THINK I'VE WORKED ON DURING MY ENTIRE TERM THAT I THINK HAVE HELPED AMERICA.

AND I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO TRY TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I'M -- I'VE WORKED WITH HER, I KNOW HER, I KNOW THAT SHE'LL BE A GREAT LEADER FOR OUR COUNTRY.

SO, HE CAN BASICALLY USE THIS SPEECH TO CREATE THAT TRANSITION FROM HAVING BEEN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, TO BEING A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO NOW IS PASSING THE BATON OR THE TORCH, IF YOU WILL, TO A NEW CANDIDATE AND BASICALLY SUPPORTING HER ROLE IN DEVELOPING A MESSAGE THAT I THINK SHE'S ALREADY DEVELOPED VERY WELL, WHICH IS THAT THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD INTO THE FUTURE, OR WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO MOVE BACKWARD.

I HOPE THE PRESIDENT EMPHASIZES THAT MESSAGE, AS WELL.

>> YEAH, AND IN THAT SENSE, HIS LEGACY IS REALLY CONNECTED AND INTERTWINED WITH HERS, AS WELL.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NEXT, TO VENEZUELA, WHERE AFTER YEARS OF STRUGGLE, THE COUNTRY MAY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO OVERCOME AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

FOR 11 YEARS UNDER PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELA SUFFERED A CATASTROPHIC ECONOMIC CRASH AND 8 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE LED THE COUNTRY.

NOW, POLLS SUGGEST THE OPPOSITION CANDIDATE, A FORMER DIPLOMAT, IS MORE POPULAR.

BUT THERE ARE FEARS THAT HISTORY MIGHT REPEAT ITSELF.

MADURO'S 2018 RE-ELECTION WAS WIDELY REGARDED AS RIGGED, AND GONZALEZ IS ONLY STANDING AFTER TWO OTHER OPPOSITION CANDIDATES WERE BARRED FROM RUNNING.

THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT WARNING OF A, QUOTE, BLOOD BATH IN VENEZUELA, A CIVIL WAR, IF HE DOESN'T WIN ON SUNDAY.

SO, TO SET THE SCENE FOR US, STEFANO POZZEBON JOANS US FROM CARACAS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CHALLENGES FACING VOTERS, QUESTIONING WHETHER OR NOT THIS WILL ACTUALLY EVEN BE A LEGITIMATE ELECTION.

>> YES, BIANNA, EXACTLY.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT ESPECIALLY THE NOTES FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WHEN I SPOKE WITH AMBASSADORS AND DIPLOMATS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS HERE IN CARACAS, THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR MESSAGE FROM A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION, TO AN ELECTION THAT IS COMPETITIVE.

NOBODY'S DARING TO SAY THAT THIS ELECTION IS FREE OR FAIR, THERE ARE STILL GREAT RESTRICTIONS ON OPPOSITION.

THE OPPOSITION CANDIDATE'S FACE IS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN HERE IN CARACAS, WHILE YOU SEE MADURO'S FACE A LOT OF TIMES WHEN YOU DRIVE AROUND THE CITY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THIS IS A COMPETITIVE ELECTION, AND THAT IS ALREADY SOMETHING NEW FOR VENEZUELA.

AFTER 2019 AND THE DEBACLE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE PREVIOUS OPPOSITION LEADER AND THE PRESSURE FROM INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, MADURO JUST CEMENTED HIS POWER, AND FIVE YEARS LATER, HE'S NOW FACING THE TOUGHEST ELECTION CHOICE IN HIS CAREER.

THE OPPOSITION CLEARLY HAS A SHOT AT THE -- AT THE PRESIDENCY, AND ED MUNDO GONZALEZ HAS TOLD CNN TIME AND AGAIN THAT HE'S GOING TO TRY TO BE A TRANSITION CANDIDATE.

SEND A MESSAGE TO THE GOVERNMENT AND TO THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THAT HE'S CONSIDERING GRANTING OR AT LEAST HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT AMNESTY AND ABOUT TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT ELECTION, ESPECIALLY, BIANNA, BECAUSE THIS IS A COUNTRY WHERE 25% OF THE POPULATION HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY IN RECENT YEARS.

THERE ARE MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS WHO HAVE LEFT THE COUNTRY, AND ARE NOW IN OTHER COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA.

AND MANY EXPERTS ARE AFRAID AND WORRIED THAT A MADURO VICTORY WILL TRANSLATE IN A NEW MIGRATION WAVE.

BIANNA?

>> STEFANO, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> SO, CAN THE P 0 SITUATION FINALLY UNSEAT PRESIDENT MADURO?

DAVID SMOLANSKY IS A FORMER VENEZUELAN MAYOR WHO HAS LIVED IN EXILE IN THE U.S.

SINCE 2017.

HE JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM D.C. DAVID, THANK YOU, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME START WITH THE FACT THAT THERE IS A LOT OF ANTICIPATION AND PROMISE GOING INTO THIS ELECTION, BUT THE FACT THAT THE OPPOSITION CANDIDATE, WHO IS VIEWED AS THE STRONGEST OPPOSITION, PERHAPS, TO THE MADURO REGIME, WAS BARRED FROM RUNNING, AND THUS, SHE IS THE ONE WHO APPEARS TO BE BACKING EDMUNDO GONZALEZ AND HIS RISE, IS NOTABLE, AND THAT LEADS TO WHAT WE HEARD FROM STEFANO, THAT THIS ISN'T EVEN BEING VIEWED AS A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION, MORE OF A COMPETITIVE ONE.

HOW WOULD YOU SEE IT?

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

WE ARE LIVING HISTORIC DAYS IN VENEZUELA, AND JULY 28TH COULD TRANSITION FOR DEMOCRACY AND HAVE A COUNTRY WITH ACCESS TO JUSTICE AND PLENTY OF WILL BEERTIES.

>> SO, WITH THE QUESTION OF GONZALEZ, I'M JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHY THE MADURO GOVERNMENT WOULD ALLOW HIM TO BE ON THE TICKET, BUT NOT MARIA MACHADO.

>> WELL, WE ARE DEALING WITH A DICTATORSHIP IN VENEZUELA, MADURO HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR 25 YEARS.

MACHADO WAS PROHIBITED FROM RUNNING WHEN SHE WAS PARTICIPATING IN PRIMARIES LAST YEAR.

BUT WE WERE ABLE, THROUGH THE PRESSURE OF THE PEOPLE THAT PARTICIPATED, IN THAT PRIMARY, AND THEN DURING THIS YEAR'S NEGOTIATIONS, AND OF COURSE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO HAVE EDMUNDO GONZALEZ RUNNING AS A CANDIDATE OF THE DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION.

AND ALL THE POLLS SAY THAT HE'S AHEAD OF MADURO, BETWEEN 25 AND 30 POINTS.

SO, WE HOPE THAT THIS SUNDAY, WE CAN START A TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA, A PEACEFUL, ORDERLY TRANSITION OF VENEZUELA, THAT WILL NOT ONLY BENEFIT OUR COUNTRY, BUT THE WHOLE REGION.

>> WHAT GIVES YOU OPTIMISM ABOUT GONZALEZ VERSUS PAST OPPOSITION LEADERS WHO, LET'S JUST BE HONEST, WERE PROBABLY VIEWED AS MORE CHARISMATIC, THEY DEFINITELY WERE YOUNGER, STARTING FROM LEO LOPEZ TO EVEN JUAN GUGUIADO.

>> I THINK GONZALEZ AS A CANDIDATE, I MEAN, THIS IS A CIVIC MOVEMENT THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA EVER.

LET'S REMIND THAT WE ARE -- WE ARE THE COUNTRY WITH THE LARGEST MIGRATION, REFUGEE CRISIS IN THE WORD, ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION CANNOT EAT THREE TIMES A DAY.

SO, I THINK THIS COMBINATION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION LEADER, GONZALEZ, WHO WAS A DIPLOMAT FOR 30 YEARS, HAVE A LONG -- HAVE A LONG EXPERIENCE ON THE PUBLIC SERVICE, AND HE COME FROM A GENERATION THAT ENJOYED THAT VENEZUELA THAT HAD DEMOCRACY.

THINK IT'S VERY POWERFUL COMBINATION, AND PEOPLE ARE ENTHUSIASTIC.

LAST YEAR, ONLY A YEAR AGO, PEOPLE WERE HOPELESS IN VENEZUELA.

NOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT MAYBE THIS SUNDAY COULD MEAN THAT THEY COULD GO BACK TO VENEZUELA AFTER LEAVING YEARS OVERSEAS BECAUSE OF FORCED MIGRATION.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT THE ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS, THE FACT THAT THE COUNTRY WAS TEETERING NEAR FAILED STATE STATUS.

AT ONE POINT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, INFLATION WAS AS HIGH AS 65,000%.

THIS COMING FROM A COUNTRY WHICH WAS AT ONE POINT GIVEN ITS NATURAL RESOURCES IN OIL AND PARTICULAR WAS ONE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORD.

ASIDE FROM THAT, AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAD A LACK OF FOOD, A LACK OF MEDICINE, THE MADURO REGIME STILL HELD THAT AND SANCTIONS ON TOP OF THAT, AND SAY THEY ARE STILL UNDECIDED.

ABOUT WHO THEY ARE VOTING FOR, ASSUMING THAT YOU TAKE THESE NUMBERS AT FACE VALUE.

WHY DO YOU THINK NEARLY 20% OF THE COUNTRY IS STILL UNDECIDED?

>> WELL, THE LAST POLL THAT WE SAW, MANY OF THOSE UNDECIDED, IF THEY HAD TO DECIDE BY SUNDAY, THEY WOULD VOTE GONZALEZ.

THEY FEAR THAT MADURO, IN CASE MADURO PREVAILS, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FLEE.

THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST HARMS THAT WE HAVE IN VENEZUELA, THE SEPARATION OF THE -- OF THE FAMILY.

LET'S REMIND ALSO THAT THIS TYPE OF INTERVIEWS THAT I'M DOING WITH YOU NOW IS COMPLETELY BANNED IN VENEZUELA.

IT'S CENSORED.

EVERYTHING THAT IS DONE IS DONE THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, WHATSAPP, OTHER APPS, SO, SOMETIMES THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE VICTIMS OF THAT HUGE PROPAGANDA THAT THE REGIME HAS, BUT AS I SAID, PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, CLEAR THAT THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO VENEZUELA IS TO START A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION THIS SUNDAY.

>> CAN'T SKIP OVER WHAT MADURO WARNED, AND THAT IS A BLOOD BATH IN THE COUNTRY IF HE LOSES.

YOU HAD THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL, LULA, SAYING THAT HE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT TYPE OF LANGUAGE.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> TRANSLATOR: I WAS SCARED BY THE COMMENTS MADURO MADE, SAYING THAT IF HE LOST THE ELECTIONS, THERE WOULD BE A BLOOD BATH.

I SPOKE WITH MADURO TWO TIMES.

I SPOKE WITH HIM OVER THE PHONE, AND MADURO KNOWS THAT THE ONLY CHANCE FOR VENEZUELA TO COME BACK TO NORMALITY IS TO HAVE A WIDELY RESPECTED ELECTORAL PROCESS.

>> HOW MUCH DO YOU VIEW THOSE COMMENTS, A BLOOD BATH, AS A REAL THREAT?

IS THE MILITARY THERE 100% ON MADURO'S SIDE TO REALLY ACT ON THOSE WORDS?

>> THE ARMED FORCES NEED TO OBEY THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING, NOT REPRESS.

THE MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS WILL DECIDE THIS SUNDAY.

IT'S 25 YEARS, HAS BEEN MORE THAN ENOUGH OF MANY PEOPLE SUFFERING, MANY PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, AND HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION.

SO, ARMED FORCES OBEY THE CONSTITUTION, RESPECT WHAT THE VENEZUELANS, MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS WILL EXPRESS THIS SUNDAY, I THINK THE TRANSITION COULD BEGIN, AND LET ME ADD THAT WHAT PRESIDENT LULA SAID, A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, WAS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

BRAZIL KNOWS WHAT THE VENEZUELANS ARE SUFFERING, MORE THAN 500,000 VENEZUELANS HAVE FLED TO BRAZIL, LOOKING FOR OPPORTUNITIES THAT THEY DON'T HAVE IN VENEZUELA.

AND IF MADURO PREVAILS, UNFORTUNATELY, MORE PEOPLE WILL FLEE TO BRAZIL, AMONG OTHER COUNTRIES, SO -- NO ONE WANTS BLOOD BATH OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS SAID THAT IS MADURO, BECAUSE THE ONLY CAMPAIGN HE HAS IS REPRESSION, IS VIOLENCE.

HE CANNOT OFFER ANYTHING DIFFERENT FROM IT.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, WHEN I ASKED YOU HOW CLOSELY ALIGNED THE MILITARY IS WITH THE MADURO REGIME, YOU SAID THEY SHOULD UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT DOESN'T REALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION, THOUGH -- WHAT THEY SHOULD DO AND WHAT THEY MAY LIKELY DO ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

>> WELL, MANY OF THE SOLDIERS ARE PART OF THE ARMED FORCES ARE SUFFERING FROM THE PROBLEMS YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER.

THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FOOD, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MEDICINE.

THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE VICTIMS OF THE PRESENCE OF FOREIGN AGENTS FROM CUBA AND RUSSIA, THEY DON'T HAVE -- THEY DON'T ENJOY A POWERFUL ECONOMY WHERE THEY COULD HAVE SAVINGS AND ESPECIALLY YOUNG SOLDIERS.

SO, THEY ARE NOT A GROUP, ASIDE FROM THE SOCIETY AND ASIDE FROM THE SUFFERING THAT THE COMMON PEOPLE HAVE IN VENEZUELA, SO -- AS I SAID, THE ARMED FORCES NEED TO BE INSTITUTIONAL, THEY NEED TO OBEY THE CONSTITUTION, THEY NEED TO RESPECT WHAT VEEZUELANS ARE GOING TO SAY THIS SUNDAY, AND WE WILL HAVE THE WORLD WATCHING.

AND THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

>> AND THE WORLD HAS BEEN WATCHING, AND WE'VE SEEN TWO DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS HERE IN THE U.S. OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS HAVE DIFFERENT APPROACHES, REALLY, I MEAN, SANCTIONS HAVE BEEN IN PLACE FROM BOTH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BEFORE THAT, BUT THEY WERE LOOSENED UP A BIT BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND THE CONCERN ABOUT OIL PRICES.

WHICH U.S. POLICY, IN YOUR VIEW, HAS BEEN THE MOST EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE IN DEALING WITH THE MADURO REGIME?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION COULD HAVE FOREIGN POLICY VICTORY IF TRANSITION STARTS ON SUNDAY.

AND DEFINITELY IT SEEMS LIKE THE TERRORIST ATTACK IN ISRAEL HAPPENED LAST OCTOBER 7TH, AND THE INVASION OF RUSSIA IN UKRAINE STARTED MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO, IT SEEMS THAT THOSE TWO ISSUES WON'T BE SOLVED BEFORE -- BEFORE THE YEAR'S END, OR BEFORE THE ELECTIONS HERE IN NOVEMBER, BUT A PROBLEM THAT IS IN THIS HEMISPHERE THAT COULD BE SOLVED QUICKER, IT'S VENEZUELA.

AND AS I SAID EARLIER, IF MADURO PREVAILS, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FLEE.

DURING THE LAST THREE YEARS, MORE THAN 700,000 VENEZUELANS HAVE COME THROUGH THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

ONLY LAST YEAR, MORE THAN 350,000 VENEZUELANS WENT THROUGH THE GAP.

THE ROOT CAUSE IS THE DICTATORSHIP.

THERE'S NO OTHER ROOT CAUSE.

SO IF WE WANT TO STOP PEOPLE FLEEING, THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IN VENEZUELA IS TO START DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION.

AND THE EFFORT FROM INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, LET ME SAY, GOES BEYOND THE U.S.

THE ROLE THAT COLOMBIA AND BRAZIL ARE PLAYING IS CRUCIAL.

ALL THE LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, SUCH AS CHILE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE EUROPEAN UNION.

THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD WILL BE WATCHING THIS SUNDAY, AND HOPEFULLY PROTECTING THE VENEZUELANS.

>> WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO NOW LIKELY TO BE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE KAMALA HARRIS, IN TERMS OF WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN VENEZUELA, PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS ELECTION, AND SPECIFICALLY, AS IT RELATES TO THE MIGRANT CRISIS, WHICH, AS YOU KNOW, IS A TOP ISSUE GOING INTO THIS ELECTION.

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY TO THE CANDIDATE KAMALA HARRIS, DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE KAMALA HARRIS AND VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE ON HER PRIORITY LIST ON FOREIGN POLICY DURING THE NEXT DAYS, VENEZUELA.

2024 HAS HAD SO MANY ELECTIONS, FRANCE, THE UK, INDIA, THE U.S. WILL HAVE ALSO ONE IN NOVEMBER, BUT MAYBE VENEZUELA WILL BE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT, ONE OF THE MOST SURPRISING, IF WE ACHIEVE THE TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY, AND, OF COURSE, MIGRATION HAS -- HAS BEEN A -- A BIG ISSUE, NOT ONLY IN THE U.S., BUT IN THE WHOLE REGION, BECAUSE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, 8 MILLION VENEZUELANS HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY.

SO, WE HOPE THAT -- THAT V.P.

HARRIS WILL HAVE VENEZUELA AS HER PRIORITY ON FOREIGN POLICY DURING THE NEXT DAYS, WEEKS, AND MONTHS, AND WE HAVE SAID THAT TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

>> WE ARE HOPING FOR A SAFE AND FAIR AND FREE ELECTION AND WE'LL BE PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO IT THIS SUNDAY.

DAVID SMOLANSKY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FROM ONE UNCERTAIN ELECTION TO ANOTHER.

OUR NEXT GUEST HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO WHAT HAS BEEN A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS FOR DONALD TRUMP AND HIS TEAM.

THE ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER TIM ALBERTA SPENT MONTHS BEHIND THE SCENES OF HIS CAMPAIGN, AND JUST TWO WEEKS AGO, REPORTED THAT THEY WERE PLANNING FOR A LANDSLIDE VICTORY, ON THE CONDITION THAT JOE BIDEN DIDN'T DROP OUT.

WELL, NOW THEIR WORST FEARS HAVE COME TRUE.

ALBERTA JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS SHIFTING ITS APPROACH TO CONFRONT A NEW DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

TIM ALBERTA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU IS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CLOSELY WATCHING THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN FOR SOME MONTHS NOW.

I WOULD GO SO FAR AS YOU'VE KIND OF BEEN IMBEDDED WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

SO, WHAT WAS THE REACTION WHEN THEY HEARD THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD DECIDED TO WITHDRAW FROM HIS RE-ELECTION BID AND THROW HIS SUPPORT TO KAMALA HARRIS?

WHAT WAS THE REACTION?

>> YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY THAT THEY WERE PRETTY SURPRISED.

I DON'T THINK THEY WERE SHOCKED, BECAUSE THEY'D BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

TO BE CLEAR, I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT HOW GOING BACK MANY MONTHS, THEY WERE PREPARING FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF A SWITCH ATOP THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, WELL PRE-DATING JOE BIDEN'S DISASTROUS DEBATE PERFORMANCE IN LATE JUNE.

BUT I THINK BY THE TIME THE CONVENTION ROLLED AROUND IN MILWAUKEE, AND IT HAD BEEN SEVERAL WEEKS AT THAT POINT SINCE THE DEBATE, AND BIDEN REALLY SEEMED TO BE DIGGING IN, AND HIS TOP ADVISERS WERE TELLING EVERYONE THAT HE WAS GOING TO STICK THIS OUT, I THINK THE TRUMP FOLKS HAD REALLY REACHED THE CONCLUSION AT THAT POINT THAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY IN THE, THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE THEIR OPPONENT.

SO, I THINK SUDDENLY, SUNDAY, WHEN THE NEWS CAME, THEY WERE PRETTY SURPRISED.

AND UNPLEASANTLY SURPRISED, I WOULD ADD, BECAUSE THIS WAS WHO THEY WANTED TO RUN AGAINST.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, JOE BIDEN WAS THE OPTIMAL TARGET, THEY FELT, FOR DONALD TRUMP AND THIS CAMPAIGN.

>> AND WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE FUNDAMENTAL FRAME THAT THE TRUMP PEOPLE HAD WANTED TO USE IN THIS ELECTION WAS ABOUT STRENGTH VERSUS WEAKNESS.

AND CERTAINLY, AT A POLICY LEVEL, THEY'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT INFLATION AT HISTORIC LEVELS, THEY'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE SOUTHERN BORDER BEING OVERRUN, THEY'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT GEOPOLITICAL CHAOS AROUND THE WORLD AND HOW BIDEN IS JUST TOO WEAK TO HANDLE ALL OF THIS.

BUT I THINK REALLY, IN A MORE INTIMATE, VISCERAL WAY, THEY WERE GOING TO SEIZE UPON BIDEN'S AGE AND HIS VISIBLE DECLINE TO REALLY TRY TO PAINT TRUMP AS THIS SORT OF MACHO, FORCEFUL ALPHA, COMPARED TO JOE BIDEN, WHO WAS FEEBLE AND SORT OF FADING BEFORE OUR VERY EYES.

AND ALL OF THE POLLING THAT THEY WERE DOING, ALL OF THE FOCUS GROUPING THAT THE TRUMP FOLKS HAD DONE, ALL THE MODELING OF DIFFERENT VOTERS, WAS REALLY SHOWING THAT TO BE A VERY EFFECTIVE STRATEGY, AND THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN KIND OF BACKED INTO A CORNER HERE, AND IF YOU TALK TO DEMOCRATS, THEY SORT OF BELIEVED THE SAME THING.

JUST -- THERE WERE A LOT OF FOLKS CLOSE TO BIDEN WHO WERE REALLY BEGINNING TO QUESTION WHETHER THERE WAS ANY PATH FORWARD FOR HIM, GIVEN THE DAMAGE THAT HE HAD ALREADY SUSTAINED.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE ACTUALLY TALKING LANDSLIDE.

THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE A LANDSLIDE, AT LEAST IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, IF NOT IN THE POPULAR VOTE.

WHY WERE THEY SO CONFIDENT ABOUT THAT, WHAT MADE THEM SAY THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO A COUPLE OF THINGS.

FIRST, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING THAT'S BEEN DONE PUBLICLY, AS WELL AS THE PRIVATE POLLING THAT BOTH PARTIES HAVE BEEN PRIVY TO, IT SHOWN PRETTY CONSISTENTLY TRUMP WITH SAFE AND GROWING LEADS ACROSS MOST OF THESE BATTLEGROUND STATES.

THE CORE BATTLEGROUND STATES THAT BOTH CAMPAIGNS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING OVER FOR SOME TIME.

BUT THEN BEYOND THAT, WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST SIX WEEKS OR SO ARE SOME REAL HINTS THAT OTHER STATES THAT HAD BEEN THOUGHT TO BE SAFELY DEMOCRATIC, STATES LIKE MINNESOTA, STATES LIKE VIRGINIA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, THAT THEY WERE COMING INTO PLAY.

AND THIS WAS NOT JUST SPIN FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, THERE WERE DEMOCRATS LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS, CONCLUDING THE SAME THING.

I THINK THE OTHER PROBLEMATIC ELEMENT FOR BIDEN THAT DEMOCRATS WERE UNABLE TO -- TO LOOK AWAY FROM ONCE THEY SAW IT, WAS JUST THIS CHASM OF INTENSITY, ENTHUSIASM, BETWEEN WHERE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN, WITH THE REPUBLICAN BASE SORT OF FULLY ONBOARD WITH TRUMP, AND DONATING LOTS OF MONEY AND VOLUNTEERING AND COMING OUT AND REALLY SHOWING A -- A UNITED FRONT AROUND THEIR NOMINEE, VERSUS BIDEN, WHO, BASED ON A LOT OF JUST SORT OF ON THE GROUND METRICS THAT DEMOCRATS IN THESE SWING STATES HAVE DESCRIBED TO ME, THAT THEIR ENTHUSIASM WAS REALLY ANEMIC.

THAT THEY WERE REALLY STRUGGLING TO GET THEIR BASE VOTERS, PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY YOUNG MEN OF COLOR, THAT THEY JUST COULD NOT GET THESE PEOPLE FIRED UP ABOUT THIS ELECTION, AND THAT THERE WAS A VERY REAL CHANCE THAT THOSE VOTERS, SOME OF THEM WOULD ACTUALLY DEFECT TO TRUMP, NOT JUST SIT OUT THE ELECTION, BUT WOULD ACTUALLY SWITCH AND VOTE REPUBLICAN.

SO, I THINK THE COMBINATION OF THOSE THINGS WAS LEADING A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND SOME DEMOCRATS TO CONCLUDE THAT WE MIGHT BE HEADED TOWARDS A LANDSLIDE ELECTION.

>> SO, HOW DOES HAIR HARRIS DISRUPT THOSE CALCULATIONS?

>> SO, LET'S BE CLEAR.

KAMALA HARRIS IS GOING TO INHERIT SOME OF JOE BIDEN'S BAGGAGE, THAT'S JUST INEVITABLE, BECAUSE SHE IS HIS VICE PRESIDENT, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO QUESTIONS AROUND IMMIGRATION, THE ECONOMY.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT SHE'S GOING TO TAKE SOME OF THE HITS THERE.

BUT KAMALA HARRIS IS TWO DECADES YOUNGER THAN DONALD TRUMP, AND WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WAS REALLY COUNTING ON A SORT OF STAMINA TEST IN THIS CAMPAIGN, THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE FLYING AROUND THE COUNTRY, DOING TONS OF EVENTS, THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE RUNNING CIRCLES AROUND JOE BIDEN, AND THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE DRAWING THIS CONTRAST IN TERPS OF ENERGY AND THIS SORT OF -- THIS DISPLAY OF HOW REPUBLICANS WERE THE ONES FIGHTING FOR YOU, WHILE DEMOCRATS ARE SORT OF ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH.

AND KAMALA HARRIS, OBVIOUSLY, IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT DYNAMIC, IN A FUNDAMENTAL WAY.

SHE'S GOING TO HIT THE TRAIL.

SHE'S GOING TO BE OUT THERE, AND SHE'S GOING TO BE CAMPAIGNING IN SETTINGS AND IN WAYS THAT JOE BIDEN SIMPLY COULDN'T.

>> HOW ABOUT THAT BAGGAGE QUESTION?

I MEAN, LOOK, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN LEANING INTO POLICY, THEY'VE BEEN -- THEY'VE BEEN SAYING THAT JOE BIDEN HAS DELIVERED ON WHAT HE PROMISED, RIGHT?

THEY SAY, THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS, YOU KNOW, IN DECADES, YOU KNOW, THE REPUBLICANS, I THINK, HAVE BEEN ARGUING THAT THEY PRIORITIZED THE WRONG THINGS, WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRIORITIZING WAS THE SOUTHERN BORDER AND INFLATION, YOU KNOW, OVERALL.

HOW DOES HARRIS DEAL WITH THAT?

>> IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE DEMOCRATS HAVE TRIED FROM THE TOP DOWN FOR THE PAST YEAR TO SELL AMERICANS ON THIS IDEA OF THIS ADMINISTRATION HAVING BEEN INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL, HAVING PASSED REALLY CONSEQUENTIAL LEGISLATION, HAVING PROVEN TO BE REALLY COMPETENT IN CLEARING SOME TOUGH GOVERNING HURDLES, AND THE PUBLIC HAS JUST RESPONDED WITH A SHRUG.

WE'VE GOT A LOT OF POLLING, A LOT OF DATA POINTS TO SHOW THAT DEMOCRATS REALLY HAVEN'T HAD ANY RETURN ON THAT INVESTMENT.

SO, IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE, JUST FROM A MESSAGING STANDPOINT, WHETHER THE VICE PRESIDENT NOW TAKING OVER FOR THE PRESIDENT, WHETHER SHE IS GOING TO BE JUST AS INSISTENT ON RUNNING ON THESE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE PAST, OR WILL SHE PIVOT AND BE MORE FORWARD-LOOKING IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE MAXUMS OF POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING IS THAT IT'S AS ABOUT THE FUTURE, RIGHT?

AND SO, THAT IS OBVIOUSLY ONE AREA WHERE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD REALLY STRUGGLED.

I MEAN, HE JUST WAS NOT ARTICULATING ANY SORT OF COHERENT, SPECIFIC VISION FOR WHAT AMERICA WOULD LOOK LIKE AFTER FOUR MORE YEARS OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

THAT'S GOING TO BE, I THINK, AN OPENING FOR KAMALA HARRIS, BUT OBVIOUSLY, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS, AND WHAT IS IT THAT SHE IS ABLE TO SELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ON, CAN SHE MORE EFFECTIVELY OFFER A VISION THAN DONALD TRUMP?

THAT DOES IN SOME WAYS CHANGE THE VERY ESSENCE OF THE CAMPAIGN, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT BIDEN HAD BEEN DOING WAS TALKING ABOUT THESE LAST FOUR YEARS, I THINK OBVIOUSLY HARRIS WILL HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A COUPLE OF KEY PLAYERS IN THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, SPECIFICALLY CHRIS LESIVITA.

PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT HIS SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH CAMPAIGN AGAINST JOHN KERRY IN 2004, IT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE MOST, YOU KNOW, SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGNS, AND IN SOME QUARTERS, INFAMOUS.

YOU KNOW, KIND OF, THE AVATAR FOR SOME PEOPLE OF DIRTY POLITICS IN THE MODERN ERA.

SO, IT -- YOU REPORTED THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY HIS ABOUT TO JOIN TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN IN THE BEGINNING DUE TO HIS BEHAVIOR.

HE -- YOU SAY HE INITIALLY FELT ALARMED DURING TRUMP'S 2016 RISE AND THE MOB ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, WHICH TRUMP, YOU KNOW, PROMOTED.

WHAT CHANGD HIS MIND?

MANY OTHERS WHO HAVE GONE TO WORK FOR DONALD TRUMP IN THE PAST, THEY SEE AN OPPORTUNITY HERE TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY, THEY SEE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THE COUNTRY, THEY SEE AN OPPORTUNITY TO IMPLEMENT A VISION FOR AMERICA THAT WOULD RUN ALMOST DIRECTLY COUNTER TO THE VISION OF THE LEFT AND OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND SO, TO VARYING DEGREES, THEY FIND THEMSELVES WILL BE TO ACCOMMODATE THEMSELVES TO DONALD TRUMP, AND SORT OF SET ASIDE SOME OF THEIR QUALMS, SOME OF THEIR MISGIVINGS, AND CLIMB INTO THE FOX HOLE WITH HIM.

AND ONCE THEY'VE DONE THAT, I THINK, IN A LOT OF CASES, YOU SEE THESE FOLKS ON THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN NOT JUST IN 2024, BUT IN 2020, AS WELL, EVEN IN 2016, THEY START TO INTERNALIZE A LOT OF THE ATTACKS ON TRUMP, THEY BEGIN TO FIND THEMSELVES SORT OF IN MORE OF A CLOSE BOND WITH HIM AS THEY SEE HIM COMING UNDER FIRE, AND IT CREATES THIS DYNAMIC WHERE PEOPLE WHO ARE ONCE HIGHLY SKEPTICAL OF THE MAN BECOME SOME OF HIS STAUNCHEST ALLIES AND SOME OF HIS STRONGEST DEFENDERS.

AND SO, I THINK THAT'S TRUE FOR SOMEONE LIKE CHRIS, AND HE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SAYS AS MUCH, AT TIMES, TO ME IN THE PIECE THAT YOU'RE REFERENCING.

AND I THINK IT IS ALSO TRUE FOR ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME INTO TRUMP'S ORBIT OVER THE YEARS.

SOME OF THEM NOW HAVING COME OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS, WRITTEN ABOUT THIS THEMSELVES.

>> I AM CURIOUS ABOUT WHETHER -- SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HE GENERALLY EMPLOYS AGAINST HIS OPPONENTS, YOU KNOW, THE NAME-CALLING, THE NICKNAMES, THE KIND OF PERSONAL ATTACKS, IS THERE ANY POINT AT WHICH THEY -- THEY ARE CONCERNED THAT THAT -- THAT MIGHT NOT WORK AGAINST A KAMALA HARRIS, THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO MIGHT IDENTIFY WITH HER WHO ARE IMPORTANT TO THEM, LIKE SUBURBAN WOMEN, THAT THEY THINK, YOU KNOW, MAYBE -- THERE'S A POINT AT WHICH EVEN HE CAN'T GO?

>> WELL, LOOK, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT CAMPAIGNING AGAINST JOE BIDEN IS NOT THE SAME AS COMPANYING AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS.

AND THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS CERTAINLY ATTUNED TO THE SENSITIVITIES AROUND ATTACKING A WOMAN OF COLOR VERSUS ATTACKING AN OLDER WHITE MAN, AND THE QUESTION IS, REALLY, IS TRUMP ATTUNED TO THOSE SENSITIVITIES?

THEY CAN TELL HIM TO BE CAREFUL, THEY CAN ASK HIM TO PROOFREAD HIS SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, OR TO TRY TO TONE THINGS DOWN BEFORE GOING ON STAGE AT A RALLY, BUT ULTIMATELY, DONALD TRUMP CAN NO T BE TAMED.

HE IS WHO HE IS, AND HE'S BEEN THE SAME MAN FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME, AND EVERYBODY WHO GOES TO WORK FOR HIM RECOGNIZES THAT SAME THING, ABOUT FIVE MINUTES AFTER THEY ARRIVE.

SO, WE'RE GOING TO SEE, THERE IS DEFINITELY CONCERN AMONG TRUMP'S ALLIES AND ACROSS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF -- OF RUNNING AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DIFFERENCES THAT YOU'VE SEEN BETWEEN THE VOTER MOBILE VAIX STRATEGIES EMPLOYED BY EACH CAMPAIGN?

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT, WHAT ARE THOSE STRATEGIES?

WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN ON EACH SIDE, AND HOW THAT MIGHT CHANGE?

>> SURE, WELL, THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, NOW THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, HAS REALLY RUN A VERY CONVENTIONAL, LARGE-SCALE OPERATION, WHERE THEY'RE DROPPING, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS, ACTUALLY, I THINK NOW OVER 1,000 PAID STAFFERS INTO THE STATES THAT ARE GOING TO DECIDE THE ELECTION, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE KNOCKING ON DOORS, THEY'RE MAKING PHONE CALLS, THEY'RE HANDING OUT LITERATURE, THEY'RE DOING ALL THE TRADITIONAL FIELD OPERATIONS.

AND THEY BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY, THE BASE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS NOT CHANGED, AND THAT THOSE PEOPLE WILL ULTIMATELY, WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, TURN OUT AND VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT IS, WHOEVER IT IS ATOP THE TICKET.

THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS THINKING VERY DIFFERENTLY.

THEY ARE EMPLOYING A MUCH SMALLER, NIMBLER FIELD OPERATION THAT'S REALLY BANKING MOSTLY ON UNPAID VOLUNTEERS, TRYING TO HARNESS SOME OF THE ENTHUSIASM IN THEIR PARTY'S BASE TO GO OUT AND DO TWO THINGS, NUMBER ONE, TO TRY TO GO OUT AND FIND NEW POCKETS OF TRUMP VOTERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE SYMPATHETIC TO THE MAG GA MOVEMENT, BUT WHO HAVE NOT VOTED FOR TRUMP IN THE PAST.

HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE REALLY EXIST?

WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN THINKS THAT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW OF THEM, AND THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN GO OUT, IDENTIFY THOSE PEOPLE, AND TURN THEM OUT TO VOTE IN NOVEMBER.

THE OTHER THING THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS TRYING TO DO IS, THEY ARE VERY INTENT ON SIPHONING AWAY VOTES FROM THE DEMOCRATIC BASE, PARTICULARLY BLACK MEN, AGES 18 TO 34, LATINO MEN UNDER 40, MAYBE UNDER 45, THERE IS A BELIEF THAT WORKING CLASS MINORITY MEN IN PARTICULAR ARE RIPE TARGETS FOR THIS TRUMP CAMPAIGN, IN THIS POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING ARE A LOT OF MICROTARGETED EFFORTS, NOT NECESSARILY KNOCKING ON THOSE DOORS, NOT GOING TO THEM PHYSICALLY, BUT REACHING THEM DIGITALLY AND THROUGH TV AND MAIL, TRYING TO GET THESE FOLKS WHO HAVE IN MY CASES, NO HISTORY OF VOTING REPUBLICAN, TO DO SO FOR THE FIRST TYPE.

>> I WANT TO ASKING ABOUT SOMETHING.

YOU SAID THE MOST STRIKING THING FROM THE TRUMP ALLIES, THEY WERE SECOND-GUESSING J.D.

VANCE.

>> HE WAS A LUXURY PICK FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT NECESSARILY ADD THE IMPACT THAT YOU WOULD LOOK FOR IN A REALLY CLOSE ELECTION.

SO, IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THESE SUBURBAN SWING VOTERS WHO ARE RIGHT ON THE FENCE AND WHO COULD GO EITHER WAY, THEN THERE'S A STRONG ARGUMENT TO BE MADE, AND IT WAS BEING MADE TO DONALD TRUMP BY CERTAIN PEOPLE CLOSE TO HIM, THAT MARCO RUBIO WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER OPTION.

EVEN SOMEONE LIKE A NIKKI HALEY, THAT WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE UNLIKELY, GIVEN THE TUMULTUOUS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HER AND TRUMP.

BUT THE POINT IS, THERE WERE OTHER OPTIONS FOR DONALD TRUMP THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A LOT MORE SENSE ON PAPER THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PROBABLY MORE EFFECTIVE IN REACHING OUT TO INDEPENDENTS AND MODERATE VOTERS.

J.D.

VANCE IS REALLY SEEN AS SOMEONE WHO IS ENERGIZE THE BASE AND WHO CAN TAKE TRUMP'S CORE MESSAGE OF POPULISM RIGHT TO THE HEART OF, YOU KNOW, THESE RUST BELT STATES AND HAMMER HOME THE IDEA THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE LET DOWN THE AMERICAN WORKER.

THAT'S FINE, AND THAT CAN STILL BE EFFECTIVE, BUT I THINK A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WORRY THAT THOSE VOTERS WERE PROBABLY ALREADY GOING TO BE IN TRUMP'S CATEGORY, THEY WERE GOING TO BE VOTING REPUBLICAN, AND THE UPSIDE OF PICKING VANCE IS PRETTY LIMITED, RELATIVE TO THE UPSIDE OF SOMEBODY ELSE, WHO MIGHT BE ABLE, IN A VERY CLOSE ELECTION, TO CONVINCE SOME OF THESE OTHER VOTERS WHO ARE MUCH LESS PERSUADABLE.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, TIM, IS THERE A VICE PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT?

LIKE, WHO IS THEIR -- WHO IS THEIR WORSE NIGHTMARE?

>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO NAMES THAT HAVE COME UP QUITE A BIT, AND THAT'S MARK KELLY, THE SENATOR FROM ARIZONA, JOSH SHAPIRO, THE GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA.

BOTH OF THESE GUYS ARE SEEN AS A REALLY EFFECTIVE COUNTERBALANCE TO KAMALA HARRIS, BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE MODERATE THAN SHE IS, ON A RANGE OF ISSUES, THERE ARE ALSO MEN WHO REPRESENT BATTLEGROUND STATES THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN FELT LIKE WERE REALLY STARTING TO SLIP AWAY FROM THE DEMOCRATS, AND IF EITHER OF THOSE GENTLEMEN WERE TO JOIN THE TICKET WITH KAMALA HARRIS, THEY FEAR, REPUBLICANS FEAR, THAT THOSE STATES WOULD COME RIGHT BACK INTO PLAY.

PARTICULARLY PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH MIGHT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT STATE IN THE ENTIRE ELECTION.

SO, YES, THOSE ARE THE TWO NAMES THAT YOU HEAR ABOUT A LOT FROM REPUBLICANS, AND FROM PEOPLE CLOSE TO TRUMP.

AND I THINK IF THEY'VE GOT THE TRUTH SERUM STUCK INTO THEIR VEINS, THEY WOULD SAY JOSH SHAPIRO IS THE ONE PERSON THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE.

>> TIM, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, FROM PARIS TO TAHITI.

SURFING IS RETURNING TO ITS BIRTHPLACE FOR THIS YEAR'S OLYMPICS.

10,000 MILES AWAY FROM THE REST OF THEIN EVENTS IN FRANCE, IT IS THE FURTHEST AWAY AN OLYMPIC EVENT HAS BEEN HELD FROM THE HOST CITY.

THE COMPETITION IS BEING HELD IN AN AREA FAMED FOR ITS BARREL WAVES THAT REACH 30 FEET HIGH.

FAR BETTER CONDITIONS COMPARED TO THE CALM WATERS IN FRANCE THIS TIME OF YEAR.

SPORTS ORIGINS DATE ALL THE WAY BACK TO 12TH CENTURY POLYNESIA, CONNECTING TODAY'S COMPETITION TO GENERATIONS OF HERITAGE AND TRADITION.

>>> WELL, THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.