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> HELLO AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
THE OUTBREAK HAS CONTINUED TO GROW AND THERE ARE MORE THAN 16,000 REPORTED CASES.
THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION DECLARES MONKEY POX A GLOBAL HEALTH EMERGENCY.
WE GET THE FACTS WITH AN EPIDEMIC GIST.
AS IRAN TURNS OFF U.N. CAMERAS MONITORING NUCLEAR SITES I AM JOINED BY THE HEAD OF THE NATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY.
VLADIMIR PUTIN USED TO TELL ME ALL THE TIME THINGS LIKE YOU KNOW US.
RUSSIA IS ONLY GREAT WHEN IT IS RULED BY GREAT MEN.
INSIGHT WITH THE FORMER U.S.
SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE.
SHE TALKS ABOUT THE UKRAINE WAR, IRAN NEGOTIATIONS, AND JANUARY 6th.
> ALSO AHEAD --
KNEEL DOWN THE WAY YOU MADE US KNEEL DOWN AND ASK FOR THAT FORGIVENESS.
Reporter: THE POPE ARRIVES IN CANADA ON A PILGRIMAGE OF PEN TANS AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH APOLOGIZES FOR THE ABUSE OF INDIGENOUS CHILDREN.
I SPEAK TO A SURVIVOR.
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
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JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
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BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARZ.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUAN COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I'M IN NEW YORK CITYING IN FORTUNE AMANPOUR.
THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SAYS MONKEY POX IS NOW A GLOBAL HEALTH EMERGENCY.
THE NEW DECLARATION COMES AS INFECTIONS SURGE IN 75 COUNTRIES.
SO FAR FIVE DEATHS AND MORE THAN 16,000 CASES HAVE BEEN REPORTED.
IT IS ONE OF THREE HEALTH EMERGENCIES THE WORLD IS FACING RIGHT NOW.
THE OTHERS ARE ONE YOU KNOW WELL, THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND POLIO.
IN A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT THE UNITED STATES HAS REPORTED ITS FIRST NEW CASE OF POLIO IN ALMOST A DECADE.
WHAT IS THE STATE OF GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH?
HOW CONCERNED SHOULD WE BE?
WHO IS THE MOST VULNERABLE RIGHT NOW?
JOINING ME NOW WITH SOME ANSWERS IS A PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AT UCLA'S FIELDING SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
NICE TO BE HERE.
FIRST THINGS FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU.
WE ARE HEARING ABOUT VIRUSES I FEEL LIKE NOW MORE THAN EVER OR IS IT JUST THAT WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION AND WE ARE REPORTING ON THEM BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE INTEREST IN WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH VIRUSES AND POXES AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER DISEASES?
WELL, IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.
WE HAVE THE INTERNET, SOCIAL MEDIA, WHICH REALLY MAKES INFORMATION AND NEWS CIRCULATE MUCH FASTER BUT WE'RE ALSO LIVING IN A TIME OF INCREASED TRAVEL, INCREASED TRADE, INCREASED POPULATION MOBILITY, INCREASED POPULATION.
AND ALSO CLIMATE CHANGE, WHICH IS REALLY CHANGING BOTH THE EPIDEMIOLOGY AND EPIDEMIC LANDSCAPE.
ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER MAKE IT A PERFECT STORM FOR VIRUSES TO SPREAD AND ALSO FOR US TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN A MUCH FASTER TIMELINE.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT MONKEY POX ITSELF.
BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF US WEREN'T FAMILIAR WITH.
WE HAD HEARD ABOUT IT BEFORE.
WHAT IS IT?
SO MONKEY POX IS A VIRAL, A VIRUS THAT NORMALLY LIVES IN ANIMALS BUT CAN BE PASSED TO HUMANS.
MONKEY POX HOWEVER ONCE IT ENTERS INTO A HUMAN POPULATION HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SPREAD FROM HUMAN TO HUMAN AND THAT IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING OCCUR GLOBALLY RIGHT NOW IS INCREASED HUMAN-TO-HUMAN SPREAD.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE DIDN'T USED TO SEE IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN I'VE BEEN WORKING ON MONKEY POX FOR TWO DECADES IN DRC AND WHAT WE SAW WAS AN INTRODUCTION FROM AN ANIMAL TO A HUMAN BUT THEN ONLY A FEW CASES OCCURRING AFTER THAT INTRODUCTION.
YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
I LIKE TO CALL YOU THE VIRUS HUNTER IN THE DRC.
CAN YOU GIVE US SOME SENSE OF WHAT THIS DISEASE DOES TO THE BODY, WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS, AND HOW POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS OR DEADLY IT IS?
SURE.
WHAT HAPPENS WITH MONKEY POX, THERE'S A VARIETY, TWO DIFFERENT -- RIGHT NOW WE ARE SEEING THE WEST AFRICAN STRAIN WHICH IS A MUCH LESS SEVERE STRAIN AND WHAT IT IS, IS YOU NORMALLY HAVE A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE YOU FEEL ACHY, FLUISH, COULD HAVE FEVER, AND THEN TYPICALLY YOU WILL START TO SEE THESE LESIONS APPEAR.
THESE LESIONS WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THIS IN THE AFRICAN CONCEPT WE THINK OF A WIDELY DISSEMINATED RASH THAT IS VERY INTENSE BUT THE WEST AFRICAN STRAIN WHAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING IS A MUCH MORE FOCUSED PRESENTATION SO A PERSON CAN HAVE JUST A FEW POX MARKS THAT WILL EVOLVE OVER TIME.
THEY ARE VERY PAINFUL AND CAN APPEAR ANYWHERE.
CAN BE ON THE FACE, THE HANDS, SOMEWHERE ON THE BODY, THE GENITAL REGION.
SO THERE IS A WIDE VARIETY OF CLINICAL PRESENTATIONS HERE FROM THESE, THIS EXTREME, DISSEMINATED RASH TO A FEW FOCUSED LESIONS AND PROBABLY ALSO SOME ASYMPTOMATIC, WITHOUT RASH AS WELL THAT WE DON'T REALLY HAVE A LOT OF DATA ON.
IT IS REALLY DISTURBING TO LOOK AT WHEN YOU SEE THOSE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU CALL THEM, PRETTY DISTURBING TO SEE WHAT IT DOES TO YOU, THE LOOK OF IT.
RESEARCHERS BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE RAVES IN EUROPE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN WHY IT ENDED UP SPREADING GLOBALLY.
YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT IT HAS BEEN ON THE AFRICAN CONTINENT FOR SOMETIME.
CAN YOU TALK TO US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, THE PANEL THAT SORT OF LOOKS AT WHETHER TO DECLARE THIS AN EMERGENCY, WHY THEY DIDN'T DO SO SOONER OR SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE SO SOONER?
WELL, I CAN TELL YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO IS ON THAT COMMITTEE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A VERY, VERY INTENSIVE DELIBERATION AND DISCUSSION LOOKING AT DATA EVERYWHERE.
SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS THERE WAS A MEETING BACK IN JUNE AND WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH DATA AT THAT TIME.
THIS WAS VERY EARLY ON.
AND WHILE WE STILL DO HAVE GAPS IN THE DATA IT BECAME VERY, VERY CLEAR THERE WERE MANY MORE CASES OUT THERE.
THE RECOMMENDATION WAS SUBMITTED TO THE DIRECTOR GENERAL WHO MADE A VERY IMPORTANT DECISION TO DECLARE THIS A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY OF INTERNATIONAL CONCERN WHICH WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THIS VIRUS TO BE ABLE TO ENSURE ANY RESOURCES THAT COULD BE MOVED TO IT WERE MOVED TOWARD IT AND, ALSO, TO REALLY FACILITATE GLOBAL COLLABORATION AND COORDINATION WHICH IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE NEEDED AND IS ALWAYS NEEDED WHEN WE SEE VIRUSES SPREADING GLOBALLY.
SO HERE IN NEW YORK MONKEY POX IS SPREADING AND CERTAINLY THERE IS A REAL CONCERN HERE.
PEOPLE LINING UP TO GET A VACCINE.
AND THERE IS CONCERN THAT THE UNITED STATES, SIMILAR TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH CORONAVIRUS AND COVID-19, DIDN'T RESPOND AS QUICKLY AND ARE MAKING SOME OF THE SAME MISTAKES THEY MADE AS THE CORONAVIRUS SWEPT THE WORLD.
WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE UNITED STATES' ABILITY TO DEAL WITH WHAT COULD TURN INTO A PANDEMIC OR AN EPIDEMIC AT THE VERY LEAST?
I THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE OF FUNDING AND ATTENTION TO A PROBLEM WHEN WE HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS THAT ARE OCCURRING, YOU KNOW, ON SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS AND SO MANY DIFFERENT SECTORS, YOU KNOW, IT IS THE SQUEAKY WHEEL IS GETTING THE GREASE.
AND HERE WORRYING ABOUT PANDEMICS WE JUST HAVEN'T BEEN PUTTING THE GREASE ON THAT WHEEL.
THIS COMES DOWN TO WE HAVE TO REALLY MAKE THE DECISION IT IS GOING TO BE EASIER TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE THAN TO GET OUT OF TROUBLE.
AND NOW WE'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING WHAT IT IS LIKE TO GET OUT OF TROUBLE WHICH REALLY DOES CREATE NEED FOR MORE RESOURCES, MORE ATTENTION.
WE'LL BE CONSTANTLY CHASING BEHIND OUTBREAKS, EPIDEMICS, AND PANDEMICS IF WE DON'T INVEST IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE.
WE HAVE BELEAGUERED HEALTH SYSTEMS HERE.
WE HAVE UNDER FUNDED PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS ALREADY BUCKLING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF COVID AND OTHER HEALTH ISSUES.
WE DON'T HAVE EXCELLENT TESTING AVAILABLE.
WE DON'T HAVE THE LOGISTICS TO BE ABLE TO GET OUT VACCINES.
WE DON'T HAVE ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT REALLY ARE NEEDED TO GET IN FRONT OF VIRUSES.
SO UNTIL WE REALLY INVEST IN THE FOUNDATION, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING PUT ON TOP OF IT WILL REALLY SINK IT.
AND SO THAT'S WHERE WE ARE
I THINK WE ALL SAW THAT I CERTAINLY DID AS A REPORTER GOING INTO HOSPITALS DURING THE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WORST PARTS OF THE PANDEMIC HERE IN THE STATES THAT WE WERE VERY CLOSE TO A BREAKING POINT WITH OUR HEALTH CARE WORKERS IN PARTICULAR STRESSED TO THE MAX AND BURNT OUT TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST AND THEY ARE CONTINUING THEIR WORK NOW.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS INSTANCE OF POLIO.
SHOULD WE BE SHOCKED TO HEAR THAT THERE HAS BEEN A CASE NOW IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE SOMEONE HAS POLIO?
SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ERADICATED FOR DECADES?
WELL, YOU KNOW, POLIO HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT STILL IS SIMMERING IN PARTS OF THE WORLD, AND WE ARE USING A VARIETY, WE HAVE BOTH THE LIVE VACCINE AND A KILLED VACCINE.
WE USE THE KILLED VACCINE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES BUT THIS WAS A RESULT OF SOMEBODY COMING IN FROM ELSEWHERE WITH IT.
THIS GOES AGAIN THAT THERE IS AN INFECTION, WHAT I'VE ALWAYS SAID IS AN INFECTION ANYWHERE IS POTENTIALLY AN INFECTION EVERYWHERE.
AND IN THE WORLD OF INCREASED GLOBAL TRAVEL, TRADE, INCREASED POPULATION MOBILITY, WE CAN NEVER JUST SAY THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING ELSEWHERE AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAPPEN HERE.
THIS IS WHY ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE TO INVEST IN PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE, IN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS GOING TO BE KEY.
WE ARE NOT GOING TO STOP VIRUSES FROM EMERGING.
NOT GOING TO STOP SEEING A CASE HERE OR A CASE THERE OF VIRUSES THAT MAY HAVE BEEN STAMPED OUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES BUT IF WE HAVE SITUATIONAL AWARENESS WE CAN ACT QUICKLY AND DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PREVENT ON BOARD SPREAD.
CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER VIRUS?
I KNOW IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT TO TAKE IN BECAUSE I THINK WE ARE ALL SORT OF SHELL SHOCKED IN TRYING TO SHAKE OFF WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL OF US ON SO MANY LEVELS EMOTIONALLY AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF PHYSICALLY WHEN IT CAME TO THE CORONAVIRUS.
BUT THERE IS ANOTHER VIRUS OUT THERE THAT I CERTAINLY THOUGHT WAS CONCERNING.
VERY MUCH LIKE THE EBOLA VIRUS, MARBERG VIRUS.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT IS AND WHERE IT IS?
WELL, MARBERG IS ANOTHER VIRAL FEVER SIMILAR AND RELATED TO THE EBOLA VIRUS BUT IN FACT HAS A MUCH HIGHER MORTALITY RATE.
IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN LINKED TO BATS, FRUIT BATS IN PARTICULAR, AND IS NORMALLY, THOUGH THIS IS A VERY RARE AND SPORADIC VIRUS, WE DON'T SEE A LOT OF IT BUT OUTBREAKS IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO WHERE I WORK, ANGOLA, SPORADIC CASES HERE AND THERE BUT SEEING IT IN WEST AFRICA WHERE WE SAW TWO CASES IN GHANA IS VERY UNUSUAL.
WHAT THIS SUGGEST TO ME, WE'VE SEEN THIS PATTERN HAPPEN BEFORE.
WITH MONKEY POX FOR EXAMPLE WE SAW CASES HAPPENING IN CENTRAL AFRICA, A FEW CASES HERE AND THERE IN WEST AFRICA AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN A LARGER OUTBREAK.
SAME THING WITH EBOLA.
SEE CASES IN CENTRAL AFRICA, A FEW CASES HERE AND THERE IN WEST AFRICA.
WE SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE PATTERNS AND PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ECOLOGY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.
AGAIN, I'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THIS BEFORE WITH MONKEY POX.
WE ARE SEEING SHIFTS HERE RELATED TO POPULATION INCREASES, POPULATION MOBILITY, TRADE, TRAVEL, AND, OF COURSE, CLIMATE CHANGE IS LIKELY PLAYING A ROLE HERE CHANGING SOME OF THE PATTERNS OF DISEASE IN ANIMAL POPULATIONS AS WELL.
WE'RE ALL INTERCONNECTED.
THIS IS PART OF THE ONE HEALTH CONCEPT WHICH IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ANIMAL POPULATIONS IS CERTAINLY EVENTUALLY GOING TO AFFECT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN HUMAN POPULATIONS, TOO.
AGAIN, AN INFECTION ANYWHERE IS POTENTIALLY AN INFECTION EVERYWHERE.
AND WE'RE ALL INTERCONNECTED.
SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REALLY HAVE GREAT SITUATIONAL AWARENESS AND BE ABLE TO GET IN FRONT OF VIRUSES.
WE'RE IN AN AGE OF ALL OF THIS HAPPENING TOGETHER.
WE'RE IN THE AGE OF INFORMATION RIGHT?
LOTS OF INFORMATION BUT ALSO IN THE AGE OF MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION WHICH HAS CERTAINLY PLAYED A ROLE IN PEOPLE GETTING OR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
ONE YES OR NO QUESTION.
WHEN IT COMES TO MONKEY POX WHICH IS WHAT WE STARTED WITH WHICH THE W.H.O. HAS NOW SAID IS AN EMERGENCY, HEALTH EMERGENCY, DO YOU THINK THIS IS STIGMATIZED BECAUSE IT IS SPREADING PRIMARILY AMONG MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN?
DO YOU THINK THERE IS A STIGMA THERE THAT HAS STOPPED GOVERNMENTS OR PEOPLE FROM PAYING ATTENTION TO IT?
I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A PERCEPTION THAT THIS IS JUST SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN.
IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THAT COMMUNITY.
THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.
WE'VE BEEN BATTLING MONKEY POX OUTBREAKS THAT HAVE BEEN INCREASING IN SIZE AND SCALE IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO AND ALSO WEST AFRICA IN PARTICULAR NIGERIA FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S JUST BEEN GAINING MOMENTUM.
IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE IT MOVED INTO ANOTHER POPULATION.
THIS JUST HAPPENS TO BE A POPULATION WITH INTENSE SOCIAL NETWORKS AND A LOT OF MOBILITY.
BUT AN INFECTION ANYWHERE IS POTENTIALLY AN INFECTION EVERYWHERE AND IT IS NOT GOING TO STAY IN ONE POPULATION.
IT WILL GO ELSEWHERE.
WE NEED TO BE PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION.
IT IS JUST NOT CORRECT TO THINK THIS IS ONLY HAPPENING IN ONE GROUP.
WE SHOULD REMEMBER THE TESTING IS REALLY ONLY FOCUSED IN GROUPS OF MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN RIGHT NOW.
I THINK THAT IS WHERE WE'LL LEAVE IT.
THE TESTING IS IMPORTANT BUT PEOPLE SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION AND I REALLY DO APPRECIATE YOUR TIME COMING ON THE SHOW.
APPRECIATE YOU.
MY PLEASURE.
> NEXT, TO IRAN WHERE THE U.N.
IS IN THE DARK ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S NUCLEAR ACTIVITY RIGHT NOW.
IN JUNE IRANIAN OFFICIALS TURNED OFF CAMERAS USED TO MONITOR IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM.
TEHRAN SAYS IT WILL ONLY SWITCH THE CAMERAS BACK ON WHEN THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL KNOWN AS JCPOA IS RESTORED.
THE HEAD OF U.N. NUCLEAR WATCH DOG THE IAEA IS WARNING THAT IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS, QUOTE, GALLOPING AHEAD.
AND HE JOINS ME RIGHT NOW.
THANK YOU FOR COMING ON THE PROGRAM.
HELLO.
GOOD TO TALK TO YOU.
YOU TALKED ABOUT IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM GALLOPING AHEAD.
CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF JUST HOW CLOSE IRAN IS FROM CREATING POTENTIALLY A NUCLEAR WEAPON?
BECAUSE FOR DECADES WE'VE BEEN HEARING THEY'RE CLOSE, THEY'RE CLOSE.
THEY'RE ON THE CUSP.
HOW CLOSE ARE THEY REALLY?
I WOULD SAY THE IEAE HAS NEVER DONE THIS KIND OF ASSESSMENT.
THIS IS FOR ANALYSTS, FOR JOURNALISTS TO DO.
WE REPORT ABOUT THE ACTIVITIES, NUCLEAR ACTIVITIES IN THE COUNTRY.
AND HOW THEY ARE PROGRESSING.
AND WHAT YOU JUST QUOTED IS OUR ASSESSMENT OF THE CURRENT SITUATION.
AS WE SPEAK, IRAN CONTINUES TO ENRICH MORE AND MORE URANIUIM AT VERY HIGH DEGREES, HIGH LEVEL OF ISOTOPIC ENRICHMENT.
IRAN IS PUTTING TOGETHER AND MANUFACTURING LAST GENERATION CENTRIFUGES WHICH ARE NECESSARY TO ENRICH THIS MATERIAL.
SO WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS JUST AN OBJECTIVE DESCRIPTION OF THE FACTS.
AND WE DO NOT HAVE, I SHOULD STRESS THIS, WE DO NOT HAVE INFORMATION THAT THEY ARE MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT THIS.
AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS VERY RELEVANT.
THIS IS A VERY HIGH DEGREE OF ENRICHMENT WHICH IS VERY CLOSE TO WEAPON GRADE, WHICH IS 90%. THEY ARE ENRICHING AT 60%. AND OTHER DEGREES AT THE SAME TIME.
SO WHAT IS COMPOUNDED WITH THE FACT THAT THEY ARE CURTAILING ACCESS OF OUR INSPECTORS, THE VISIBILITY SO TO SPEAK THAT THE AGENCY HAS ON THESE ACTIVITIES, AS YOU RIGHTLY MENTIONED THEY WERE, THEY HAVE BEEN REMOVING A NUMBER OF CAMERAS THAT WE HAD INSTALLED IN DIFFERENT FACILITIES IN IRAN AND ALL OF THIS OF COURSE COMES TOGETHER TO CONFORM A SITUATION WHICH OF COURSE IS NOT THE BEST.
CAN YOU GIVE US A REALISTIC TIME FRAME BASED ON YOUR AGENCY'S LAST ASSESSMENTS AS TO WHERE THEY ARE IN THIS PROGRAM?
BECAUSE AS YOU SAID, YOU CAN'T SAY DEFINITIVELY THEY ARE CREATING WEAPONS GRADE URANIUIM.
BUT THAT THEY COULD POTENTIALLY MAKE A WEAPON IF THEY GET TO THAT POINT.
CORRECT?
HOW CLOSE ARE THEY, DO YOU THINK?
WELL, AGAIN, I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE IS TO LOOK AT THE FACTS AS THEY ARE.
IN TERMS OF NUCLEAR MATERIAL, MATERIAL FOR WHICH YOU COULD NOT EXCLUDE THAT COULD BE USED IN A NUCLEAR DEVICE, THERE IS A LOT IN THE WORLD.
THE IMPORTANT THING IS WHETHER THE INSPECTIONS ARE TAKING PLACE OR NOT.
WHETHER WE ARE HAVING THE NECESSARY ABILITY TO INSPECT THESE ACTIVITIES, WHICH ARE PROLIFERATION RELEVANT.
THEY ARE RELEVANT TO POTENTIAL PROLIFERATION.
BUT FROM THIS TO JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE BEING MANUFACTURED, I DON'T THINK THIS IS A SENSIBLE THING TO SAY, BECAUSE FOR THIS WE HAVE TO HAVE THE INFORMATION.
WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT THIS IS RELEVANT, THAT THEY HAVE TO RESTORE ALL OF OUR INSPECTION CAPABILITIES THAT IF THEY WANT TO BE TRUSTED, CONFIDENCE MUST BE THERE.
AND IN THE NUCLEAR FIELD THE ONLY WAY TO HAVE CONFIDENCE IS TO BE INSPECTED.
GOOD WORDS WILL NOT DO.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE IRAN DEAL.
THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.
IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER LAST WEEK SAID THERE IS A TEXT OF THIS NEW DEAL THAT IS READY, THAT HIS COUNTRY AND THE UNITED STATES AGREE ON MORE THAN 95% TO 96% OF THAT.
SO WHAT ARE THE ROAD BLOCKS THAT ARE STOPPING THIS FROM BEING REINSTATED IF YOU WILL?
WELL, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY MENTIONED.
AND ACTUALLY THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION FOR THOSE NEGOTIATING.
THE IEAE IS NOT THE NEGOTIATOR BUT THE GUARANTOR, THE INSPECTOR OF WHATEVER IS AGREED AT THAT NEGOTIATION.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MENTIONED AT TIMES.
IT HAS BEEN ABOUT FINANCIAL THINGS OR SANCTIONS OR INDIVIDUALS OR CERTAIN ACTIVITIES.
SO WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT THE NEGOTIATIONS NOT YIELDING THE RESULTS IT SHOULD, AND IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, OF COURSE, WE WILL BE ENTERING INTO A VERY UNCERTAIN PHASE WHERE IRAN WILL BE WITH A PROGRAM AS I WAS SAYING THAT IS MOVING FORWARD VERY, VERY FAST, AND WITHOUT A NUMBER OF INSPECTION CAPABILITIES, WHICH WOULD GIVE US, I SAY US, I MEAN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE CREDIBLE ASSURANCES THAT NOTHING INCORRECT IS ONGOING IN IRAN.
SO WE KNOW THAT THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE AT A DELEGATE PHASE.
WE HOPE FOR THE BEST.
BUT FOR NOW, AND I BELIEVE THE SPACE FOR THAT IS NARROWING, LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.
YOU TALK ABOUT YOU BELIEVING THIS SPACE IS NARROWING.
WE HAVE SOME PROOF OF THAT BECAUSE WE SPOKE WITH THE U.S.
SPECIAL ENVOY FOR IRAN LAST WEEK.
HE TALKED ABOUT THE CHANCES OF GETTING BACK ON TRACK AND GETTING THE DEAL SIGNED BY THE COUNTRIES.
HERE IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME.
SO IF IRAN WANTS TO COME BACK INTO THE DEAL WHICH THEY SAY THEY WANT TO DO THERE IS A VERY EASY WAY TO DO IT WHICH IS TO AGREE TO THE TERMS THAT NOT THE U.S. BUT THE EUROPEAN UNION IN ITS CAPACITY AS COORDINATOR HAVING LISTENED TO US, LISTENED TO THE IRANIANS, LISTENED TO THE OTHER PARTNERS IN THE DEAL CAME UP WITH WHAT THEY CONSIDERED TO BE A FAIR PROPOSAL.
WE'RE PREPARED TO AGREE ON THAT BASIS.
WE'RE WAITING FOR IRAN TO SAY THE SAME.
THE CHANCE IS THERE BUT IT IS A CHANCE THAT BY DEFINITION DIMINISHES BY THE DAY AND PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID IT VERY CLEARLY DURING HIS TRIP, STILL OUR OBJECTIVE IS TO GET BACK INTO THE DEAL AND TO HOPE THAT IRAN WILL DO THE SAME.
WILL COME BACK INTO COMPLIANCE WITH THE DEAL.
THAT IS STILL A STRONG PREFERENCE.
THAT IS NOT AN OPTION AVAILABLE FOREVER.
HE SAID THE CHANCE DIMINISHES BY THE DAY.
HOW DANGEROUS WOULD IT BE IF NO DEAL IS MADE AND IRAN KEEPS THOSE CAMERAS OFF?
THE ISSUE IS AS I TRIED TO EXPLAIN AND I KNOW HIM VERY WELL AND THE EFFORTS THEY ARE DEPLOYING TO TRY TO BRING THE AGREEMENT BACK TOGETHER, IS THAT YOU HAVE ALL THESE ACTIVITIES THAT ARE CONTINUING, AND WE DO NOT HAVE THE VISIBILITY.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.
SO HERE YOU HAVE TWO DIFFICULTIES IN FACT.
THE FIRST DIFFICULTY IS THAT EVEN IF THERE IS AN AGREEMENT, WE WILL HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO RECONSTRUCT, TO PUT THE JIGSAW PUZZLE TOGETHER AGAIN, BECAUSE THERE WILL HAVE BEEN BY THEN, WHENEVER THIS IS, RELATIVELY LONG PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE AS WE SPEAK, THOSE CAMERAS WERE WATCHING AND RECORDING THINGS THAT ARE STILL TAKING PLACE ONLY WITHOUT THIS VISIBILITY.
SO MORE MATERIAL, MORE CENTRIFUGES.
WHEN YOU COME TO AGREEMENT YOU HAVE AS A BASIS FOR THE AGREEMENT A DISCREET NUMBER OF CENTRIFUGES OR MATERIAL.
SO IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT YOU HAVE TO TRUST ON THE IEAE TO TELL YOU, WELL, THIS IS THE BASELINE.
THESE ARE THE AMOUNTS.
ONLY THAT.
I CAN NO LONGER DO THIS.
LET ME JUST QUICKLY ASK YOU A YES OR NO QUESTION BECAUSE I AM CURIOUS.
DO YOU THINK IT WAS DISASTROUS THAT THE UNITED STATES PULLED OUT OF THIS DEAL THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE WITH IRAN?
I THINK WHAT HAPPENED, HAPPENED.
AND --
THAT IS A VERY DIPLOMATIC ANSWER.
DO YOU THINK IT WAS A PROBLEM?
BUT DO YOU THINK IT CREATED A REAL ISSUE?
HERE WE ARE AGAIN.
A PROBLEM, YES.
I WOULD NOT QUALIFY IT.
IT IS A PROBLEM THAT WE NEED TO SOLVE.
WE STILL HAVE TIME.
NOT MUCH.
ALL RIGHT.
WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON THE SHOW.
I APPRECIATE YOUR DIPLOMACY AND YOUR EXPERTISE.
> IRAN HOSTED RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN LAST WEEK AS THE TWO COUNTRIES LOOKED TO BOLSTER RELATIONS.
PUTIN MET WITH IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER AND BOTH COUNTRIES ARE UNDER STRICT SANCTIONS FROM THE WEST.
THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS INFLUENCING FOREIGN POLICY AS IT SHOULD AROUND THE WORLD.
WALTER ISAACSON SPOKE TO THE FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE TO GET HER TAKE.
THANK YOU.
AND SECRETARY CONDOLEEZZA RICE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU.
IT IS GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.
YOU'RE COMING TO US FROM ASPEN WHERE YOU ARE COCHAIR OF THE ASPEN SECURITY FORUM AND STRATEGY GROUP.
BILL BURNS WAS JUST THERE TALKING TO YOU.
LET ME READ SOMETHING HE SAID.
HE SAYS, PUTIN REALLY DOES BELIEVE HIS RHETORIC THAT UKRAINE IS NOT A REAL COUNTRY.
HE BELIEVES IT IS HIS ENTITLEMENT TO DOMINATE UKRAINE.
NOBODY KNOWS RUSSIA BETTER THAN YOU DO.
YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING IT YOUR ENTIRE CAREER.
IS HE RIGHT AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
OH, I THINK BILL BURNS IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
OF COURSE FEW PEOPLE KNOW RUSSIA BETTER THAN BILL BURNS EITHER HAVING BEEN AMBASSADOR THERE AND SPEAKING FLUENT RUSSIAN.
VLADIMIR PUTIN USED TO TELL ME ALL THE TIME, THINGS LIKE, CONDI, YOU KNOW US.
RUSSIA IS ONLY GREAT WHEN IT IS RULED BY GREAT MEN LIKE PETER THE GREAT AND ALEXANDER II.
HE NOW COMPARES HIMSELF TO PETER THE GREAT.
THAT VERY STRANGE SPEECH HE GAVE JUST BEFORE THE INVASION TALKED ABOUT HOW LENIN CREATED UKRAINE.
HE TOLD US THAT UKRAINE WAS NOT, UKRAINE WAS A MADE UP COUNTRY.
SO I THINK HE REALLY DOES HAVE THIS DELUSIONAL VIEW OF HISTORY WHERE RUSSIAN EMPIRE REQUIRES THAT THERE NOT BE AN INDEPENDENT UKRAINE.
THAT'S VERY HARD FOR US TO GET OUR HEADS AROUND, BECAUSE WE THOUGHT PEOPLE STOPPED THINKING THAT WAY A CENTURY OR SO AGO.
BUT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE CONFRONTED WITH, WALTER.
DOES THAT MEAN THERE IS NO SOLUTION OTHER THAN A VICTORY FOR EITHER SIDE IN UKRAINE?
WELL, THERE CERTAINLY IS NO SOLUTION IF UKRAINE IS LEFT TO THE TENDER MERCIES OF THE RUSSIANS.
BUT I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT IF THE UKRAINIANS FIGHT AS BRAVELY AS THEY ARE FIGHTING NOW, IF WE SUPPORT THEM AS FULLY AND AS COMPLETELY AND AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN, IF WE ARE LESS CONSTRAINING ON THEM AND WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO WIN THIS WAR, THAT AT THE VERY LEAST, THEY CAN FIGHT THE RUSSIANS TO LET'S SAY A STALEMATE, THAT, YES.
RUSSIA MAY BE ABLE TO HOLD ON TO SOME TERRITORY, EVEN THOUGH I REALLY HOPE THAT THE UKRAINIANS CAN MOUNT A COUNTEROFFENSIVE BUT WE CAN ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE THAT PUTIN DOES NOT SUCCEED IN LIQUIDATING UKRAINE.
I THINK HE HAS ALREADY FAILED AT THAT.
OUR GOAL WITH THE UKRAINIANS IS TO MAKE SURE HE FAILS HERE GOING FORWARD.
YOU SAY THAT PERHAPS THE UKRAINIANS CAN HOLD IT TO A STALEMATE.
DO YOU THINK THEN THERE SHOULD BE A CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE AND WE JUST PUT ASIDE FOR A WHILE THE QUESTION OF DISPUTED TERRITORY?
I WOULD NEVER PRESUME TO TELL THE UKRAINIANS WHEN THE CONDITIONS ARE MET THAT THEY WOULD BE PREPARED TO TAKE A CEASE-FIRE OR AN AGREEMENT.
THESE PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT.
THEY HAVE SUFFERED.
THE RUSSIANS HAVE COMMITTED HORRENDOUS WAR CRIMES.
WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE UKRAINIANS UNTIL THEY DECIDE THAT THEY HAVE ACHIEVED THE CONDITIONS IN WHICH THEY WANT TO LOOK FOR A CEASE-FIRE.
THAT IS MY VIEW.
THIS IS A DECISION IN KYIV, NOT IN WASHINGTON, NOT IN BERLIN, NOT IN LONDON.
BY THE WAY WHEN I SAY A STALEMATE I DON'T MEAN NECESSARILY THE FIGHTING STOPS.
I MEAN FROM THERE PERHAPS THEY CAN REALLY UNDERMINE THE RUSSIANS WITH A COMBINATION OF RESISTANCE AND CONTINUED MILITARY FIGHTING.
BUT WE JUST CAN'T LET THE RUSSIANS, THEY CAN'T LET THE RUSSIANS GO ANY FURTHER.
THEY CAN'T CREATE A LAND LOCKED UKRAINE FOR INSTANCE BY WINNING IN THE SOUTH AND THE UKRAINIANS ARE DOING VERY WELL IN THE SOUTH.
SO IT IS NOT FOR US TO SAY WHEN UKRAINE WANTS TO STOP FIGHTING.
THAT IS FOR THE UKRAINIANS.
PRESIDENT PUTIN JUST WENT TO TEHRAN WHERE HE MET WITH IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF A POSSIBLE ALLIANCE OR BETTER RELATIONS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES, OR IS THAT POSSIBLE?
WELL, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT PUTIN IS SEEKING ALLIES WHEREVER HE CAN GET THEM THESE DAYS.
AND FRANKLY BELARUS IS NOT A PARTICULARLY STRONG READ SO YOU WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED HE IS LOOKING FOR ALLIES ELSEWHERE.
IT MIGHT BE AN EFFORT TO SAY TO THE IRANIANS IF YOU HELP US EVADE SANCTIONS WE WILL HELP YOU.
I CAN IMAGINE THAT'S PART OF THE CONVERSATION.
BUT TWO PARIAH STATES I SUPPOSE THEY DESERVE EACH OTHER.
WE HAVE TO KEEP PRESSING HARD.
I WILL SAY, THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE IRANIANS WITH THE RUSSIANS AT THE TABLE.
THIS IS A TIME TO ISOLATE IRAN AND ISOLATE RUSSIA ACROSS THE BOARD.
SO YOU WOULD CUT OFF THE TALKS ON THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR DEAL AND PERHAPS EVEN THINK THE EUROPEANS SHOULD DO THAT, RIGHT?
WELL, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL THE IRANIANS HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS THEY WERE ASKED BY THE ADMINISTRATION ON THE WAY TO A DEAL.
SO, YES.
I THINK IT IS HIGH TIME TO SAY TO THE IRANIANS THIS IS OVER.
I DIDN'T FAVOR, TO BE FAIR, GOING BACK INTO NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE IRANIANS IN ANY CASE.
I THINK WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE ON ISOLATION AT THIS POINT NOT ON ENGAGEMENT.
IF WE ARE GOING TO ISOLATE IRAN AND ISOLATE RUSSIA AND DO ALL OF THESE SANCTIONS DON'T WE HAVE TO HAVE BETTER RELATIONSHIPS WITH CHINA?
WELL, THE CHINESE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE MADE THEIR CHOICE.
WHAT IS IT, THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITHOUT LIMITS, ALTHOUGH THEY MUST BE WONDERING ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP WITHOUT LIMITS THAT IS BRINGING DOWN SANCTIONS.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAID ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA.
ABOUT PUTIN, EXACTLY, IN THAT LITTLE MEETING THEY HAD JUST BEFORE THE OLYMPICS.
BUT WE JUST NEED TO SEND, I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE A GOOD JOB HERE, SEND A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE CHINESE THAT WE DON'T LIKE THEIR RHETORIC BUT THAT ANY MATERIAL ASSISTANCE TO THE RUSSIANS WOULD BE LOOKED UPON VERY, VERY MUCH ASKANCE AND I THINK THE CHINESE KNOW YOU WOULD THEN BE LOOKING AT SECONDARY SANCTIONS.
SO, YES, THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BUY DISCOUNTED RUSSIAN OIL.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE DOING THAT.
BUT ANY MATERIAL HELP TO THE RUSSIANS BEYOND THAT HAS REALLY, WE HAVE TO WARN THE CHINESE OFF PRECISELY THAT.
BUT I THINK, WALTER, AS LONG AS WE CAN KEEP UNITY IN THE WESTERN ALLIANCE, IN NATO, THE EUROPEAN UNION, AND OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE JAPAN AND OTHERS THAT ARE A PART OF THIS, I THINK WE CAN BRING THE KIND OF PRESSURE THAT WE NEED.
DO YOU THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA AND ENGAGE IN FIST BUMP DIPLOMACY?
AND WHAT GOOD OR BAD DO YOU THINK CAME OUT OF THAT TRIP?
WELL, THE FACT IS, THAT SAUDI ARABIA IS AN IMPORTANT COUNTRY.
IT IS AN IMPORTANT ECONOMIC POWER, GIVEN ITS OIL RESERVES AND THE FACT THAT THE WORLD IS IN NEED OF OIL AND GAS RESERVES.
AND IT IS AN IMPORTANT COUNTRY TO, FRANKLY, KEEPING THE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
NOW THE SAUDIS HAVE GONE QUITE A LONG WAY IN, I WILL CALL IT MOVEMENT TOWARD ISRAEL ALONG WITH THE OTHER GULF STATES THAT HAVE BEEN MORE UP FRONT ABOUT IT LIKE THE UAE OR MOROCCO OR OTHERS.
BUT THAT IS A POSITIVE THING FOR THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS OUGHT TO BE ENCOURAGED AND ENCOURAGED TO EXPAND.
NONE OF US WANTS TO IGNORE WHAT HAPPENED WITH KHASHOGGI.
NONE OF US WANTS TO IGNORE THE HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEMS AND ABUSES IN SAUDI ARABIA.
BUT I HAD TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA.
PRESIDENT BUSH WENT TO SAUDI ARABIA.
PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS BEEN IN SAUDI ARABIA.
WHO ARE WE KIDDING?
PRESIDENTS ARE GOING TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA.
IT PROBABLY IS NOT A GOOD THING TO SAY THAT YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA, WHICH IS A PARIAH STATE AND THEN HAVE TO GO.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
IT IS ALSO PROBABLY NOT WISE TO NOT SHAKE HANDS.
I MEAN, IT FELT A LITTLE BIT STAGED SOMEHOW.
I DON'T KNOW.
IS A FIST PUMP MORE INTIMATE, LESS INTIMATE?
I CAN'T REALLY TELL YOU.
BUT THAT HE WENT TO SAUDI ARABIA I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.
BY THE WAY, ONE OF THE WAYS THAT YOU LIMIT THE DEPENDENCE ON SAUDI OIL IS THAT YOU FULLY EXPLOIT AMERICA'S TREMENDOUS RESERVES.
THE NORTH AMERICAN PLATFORM FOR ENERGY PRODUCTION STRETCHING FROM CANADA DOWN THROUGH MEXICO IS A POWERHOUSE.
THE UNITED STATES WAS GOING TO ACHIEVE INDEPENDENCE IN SUPPLY AND THAT MAKES US THEN POSSIBLE TO EXPORT.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PLACES THAT THE OIL RESERVES ARE, SAUDI ARABIA, RUSSIA, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IRAN, WOULD I RATHER THAT THE HYDRO CARBONS WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO NEED WHILE WE MAKE THE TRANSITION TO A LESS CARBON INTENSIVE ECONOMY TO FAVOR CLIMATE CHANGE, WHILE WE'RE DOING THAT, THOSE HYDROCARBONS OUGHT TO BE COMING FROM NORTH AMERICA.
THEN YOU'RE LESS DEPENDENT ON SAUDI ARABIA.
YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING OR MAYBE READING ABOUT THE JANUARY 6th HEARINGS.
HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, OF WHICH YOU ARE A MEMBER, MOVE ON FROM DONALD TRUMP.
WELL, I AM, LOOK, I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT TO THE AMERICAN VOTER WHO THEY WANT TO BE PRESIDENT BUT I AM READY FOR, YOU.
A NEW GENERATION OF LEADERSHIP.
I'M READY FOR ALL OF THOSE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR CHANCE TO STEP ASIDE AND LET SOMEBODY ELSE LEAD.
I HAVE MADE VERY CLEAR MY VIEWS ABOUT JANUARY 6th.
IT WAS A STAIN ON AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
WALTER, I CRIED THAT NIGHT, BECAUSE I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, OR THAT AFTERNOON.
I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, I STUDY COUNTRIES THAT DO THIS.
I DON'T LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT DOES THIS.
AND, YET, WHEN THEY WALKED TO THE -- THE SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN WALKED BACK INTO THE CAPITOL AFTER IT HAD BEEN SECURED AND THAT KIND OF ALMOST BORING WAY CERTIFIED THE ELECTION, I THANKED GOD FOR ALEXANDER HAMILTON, JAMES MADISON, AND MICHAEL PENCE, BECAUSE THE AMERICAN SYSTEM HELD.
SO THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER AFTER AN ELECTION.
AND IT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
IT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT QUESTIONS, ABOUT VOTER FRAUD AND VOTER SUPPRESSION.
BY THE WAY BOTH OF WHICH ARE TERMS THAT ARE MEANT TO STOP THE CONVERSATION NOT START IT.
AND, YES.
WE NEED A NEW GENERATION OF LEADERSHIP FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
AND DARE I SAY FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, TOO.
BUT ELECTION DENIERS ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE IN STATES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW ESPECIALLY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE FACED WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS AN ELECTION DENIER?
WILL YOU SORT OF TELL PEOPLE THAT'S NOT THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO?
I'M NOT GOING TO TELL PEOPLE HOW TO VOTE.
ALL RIGHT?
BECAUSE I -- VOTERS HAVE A WIDE VARIETY OF CONCERNS WHEN THEY'RE VOTING.
I AM GOING TO SAY THAT ELECTION DENIERS ARE NOT IN MY -- TO MY MIND -- ACTING IN THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC WAY.
THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC WAY IS TO ACCEPT THE OUTCOMES OF ELECTIONS, CONGRATULATE THE WINNER, AND MOVE ON.
IF YOU HAVE A BELIEF THAT SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG IN AN ELECTION WE HAVE COURTS THAT CAN HEAR THOSE CASES.
AND MANY, MANY COURTS HEARD THESE CASES AND SAID THAT, INCLUDING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR, WHO SAID THERE WAS NO SUBSTANTIAL PROBLEM.
SO I WOULD SAY, COULD WE JUST ACCEPT THAT?
AND MOVE ON?
I DO WANT TO SAY THIS, WALTER.
YOU KNOW THAT I'M DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTION AND WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT SOME POLLING THAT SAYS AMERICANS ARE LOSING FAITH IN THEIR ELECTIONS.
THERE IS NOTHING MORE SERIOUS THAN A DEMOCRACY STARTING TO LOSE FAITH IN ITS ELECTIONS.
AND WHEN AMERICANS ARE TOLD ON ONE HAND THEIR ELECTIONS ARE FRAUDULENT, ON THE OTHER HAND THAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO SUPPRESS THE VOTE, NO WONDER THEY ARE LOSING FAITH IN THEIR ELECTIONS.
AND SO RATHER THAN SAYING, YES.
WE HAVE SOME ISSUES WITH OUR ELECTIONS, I FOR ONE BELIEVE VOTER I.D. IS REALLY AN IMPORTANT THING TO DO, BECAUSE I WENT AROUND THE WORLD AS SECRETARY TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO DO SIGNATURE MATCHING BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS WITH SIGNATURE MATCHING?
A WOMAN OF MY AGE AND I'M NOT GOING TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT THAT IS BUT LIKE IN MY 60s IS SITTING THERE AS A VOLUNTEER.
HER EYES GET TIRED ON SIGNATURE MATCHING.
SO NOW SHE IS THROWING OUT VOTES OR ACCEPTING THEM BECAUSE SHE'S TIRED.
YOU DON'T -- WE NEED VOTER I.D.
SO WHEN PEOPLE WANT TO CLAIM THAT IT'S VOTER SUPPRESSION TO HAVE VOTER I.D., I SAY REALLY?
WHEN PEOPLE WANT TO CLAIM IT IS VOTER FRAUD WHEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SAYS IT'S NOT, WE SOMEHOW HAVE GOT TO COME BACK TO A SENSIBLE PLACE ABOUT OUR ELECTIONS.
YOU SEEM TO BE EQUATING THE ELECTION DENIERS WITH PEOPLE WHO WORRY ABOUT VOTER SUPPRESSION, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE THAT BIG OF A PROBLEM.
NO.
I'M NOT TRYING TO EQUATE ANYTHING, WALTER.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT WHEN I HEAR THOSE TERMS, THEY'RE MEANT TO STOP THE CONVERSATION NOT START IT.
AND COULD WE JUST BACK OFF AND LOOK AT WHAT WE ACTUALLY REALLY NEED TO DO WITH OUR ELECTIONS.
BUT, NO.
I SAID, THE JANUARY 6th SITUATION IS A UNIQUE SITUATION IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
BUT MY POINT IS, WE DO HAVE SERIOUS THINGS WE NEED TO DO ABOUT OUR ELECTIONS.
UNTIL WE STOP CALLING NAMES WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THEM.
IN YOUR 2019 BOOK WHICH I REALLY LOVED BECAUSE IT WAS VERY PRESCIENT, CALLED 'TO BUILD A BETTER WORLD' YOU TALKED ABOUT THE RISE OF POPULISM AROUND THE WORLD AND SORT OF THE ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT POLITICS AND YOU WROTE ABOUT THE FOUR HORSES OF THE APOCALYPSE, POPULISM, NATIVISM, PROTECTIONISM, AND ISOLATIONISM.
WHAT DO YOU SAY NOW AFTER THREE YEARS?
IT SEEMS TO HAVE GOTTEN WORSE.
YEAH.
I'M AFRAID I THINK IT IS GETTING WORSE.
IN PART, WALTER, I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY THAT THOSE OF US WHO TALKED GLOWINGLY ABOUT GLOBALIZATION DIDN'T ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WERE GETTING LEFT BEHIND IN GLOBALIZATION.
IF YOU'RE THE UNEMPLOYED COAL MINER OR UNEMPLOYED STEEL WORKER IN GREAT BRITAIN GLOBALIZATION DIDN'T TREAT YOU VERY FAIRLY.
AND PEOPLE'S SKILLS DIDN'T KEEP PACE WITH WHAT WAS NEEDED.
AND IT'S BY THE WAY NOT JUST GLOBALIZATION BUT AUTOMATION AS WELL.
AND SO I THINK THE ONLY WAY TO BEAT BACK THOSE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE IS TO MAKE OPPORTUNITY REAL FOR PEOPLE IN THE WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE NOT THE NOSTALGIC WORLD OF THE PAST.
WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO.
YOU KNOW THAT I'M A GREAT PROPONENT OF LOOKING HARD AT OUR K-12 EDUCATION SYSTEM, LOOKING HARD AT SKILLS DEVELOPMENT.
WE NEED A HUMAN POTENTIAL INITIATIVE IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE IF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THEY CAN GET AHEAD THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE SIREN SONGS OF POPULISTS WHO WILL TELL THEM IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT.
IT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S FAULT.
SECRETARY CONDOLEEZZA RICE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU, WALTER.
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
> NEXT WE GO NORTH TO CANADA WHERE POPE FRANCIS IS VISITING ON WHAT THE VATICAN IS CALLING A PENITENTIAL PILGRIMAGE.
HE IS THERE TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE ABUSE OF INDIGENOUS CHILDREN IN CATHOLIC RUN RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
A DARK CHAPTER IN CANADA'S HISTORY THAT MADE GLOBAL HEADLINES AFTER HUNDREDS OF UNMARKED GRAVES WERE FOUND AT RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS LAST YEAR.
TAKE A LISTEN TO SOME OF WHAT THE POPE SAID TODAY.
FIRST STEP OF THIS PENITENTIAL PILGRIMAGE AMONGST YOU IS THAT, AGAIN, TO ASK FORGIVENESS OF TELLING YOU ONCE MORE THAT I AM DEEPLY SORRY.
I ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FOR THE WAYS IN WHICH REGRETTABLY MANY CHRISTIANS SUPPORTED THE COLONIZING MENTALITY OF THE POWERS THAT OPPRESSED THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES.
THAT APOLOGY HAS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING.
AS OUR PAULA NEWTON REPORTS.
Reporter: IT IS A PAPAL TRIP LIKE NO OTHER.
ONE THAT WILL SEE POPE FRANCIS HUMBLE HIMSELF ON BEHALF OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND APOLOGIZE TO CANADA'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLES FOR YEARS OF ABUSE AND HARM.
ONLY MONTHS AGO FEW COULD IMAGINE HIS JOURNEY HERE.
ONE THE POPE IS CALLING A JOURNEY OF PENANCE FOR WHAT A CANADIAN NATIONAL COMMISSION SAYS WAS CULTURAL GENOCIDE.
AT LEAST 150,000 INDIGENOUS CHILDREN SEPARATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES AND FORCED TO ATTEND RESIDENTIAL INSTITUTIONS WHERE THOUSANDS ENDURED PHYSICAL, SEXUAL, AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE FROM PRIESTS, NUNS, AND SCHOOL STAFF.
KNEEL DOWN THE WAY YOU MADE US KNEEL DOWN AS LITTLE KIDS AND ASK FOR THAT FORGIVENESS.
Reporter: VICTORIA MAcINTOSH WAS TAKEN FROM HER FAMILY AT THE AGE OF 4.
MY GRANDS MADE THIS FOR ME.
Reporter: THIS WAS THE COAT SHE SAYS SHE WORE WHEN HER MOM DROPPED HER OFF AT A CATHOLIC INSTITUTION IN MANITOBA IN THE 1960s.
THAT NUN TOOK IT OFF OF ME AND THREW IT AT MY MOM.
Reporter: MAcINTOSH SAID THE NUN THEN CALLED HER MOTHER A SAVAGE, AN INCIDENT SHE SAID FORESHADOWED YEARS OF ABUSE.
SHE SAID HER MOTHER NEVER FORGAVE HERSELF.
AND I TOLD HER, I SAID, IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT.
IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT.
WHAT CHOICE DID YOU HAVE?
Reporter: MAcINTOSH SAYS SHE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED BY A PRIEST FOR YEARS WHEN SHE WAS ONLY A CHILD.
HE VIOLATED ME.
IN WAYS THAT NO CHILD SHOULD EVER GO THROUGH.
AND I WOULD BREAK DOWN AND I WOULD CRY THINKING ABOUT IT, WHAT HE HAD DONE.
I WONDERED WHY.
WHAT DID I DO TO YOU?
Reporter: MAcINTOSH SAYS THAT PRIEST WAS 92-YEAR-OLD ARTHUR MASAY.
IT WAS ONLY IN JUNE WHEN HE WAS CHARGED WITH INDECENT ASSAULT.
HE HAS NOT ENTERED A PLEA.
IT IS THE IMPUNITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S ACTIONS THAT HANGS OVER THIS VISIT EVEN AS DOZENS OF INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES NOW SEARCH THE GROUNDS OF THESE INSTITUTIONS WHERE HUNDREDS OF UNMARKED GRAVES HAVE ALREADY BEEN IDENTIFIED.
AS INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES WORK TO RECOVER LOST CHILDREN, THERE IS STILL MUCH AMBIVALENCE ABOUT THE POPE'S VISIT AND HIS APOLOGY.
THE POPE WAS BLUNT.
HE CALLED IT A JOURNEY OF PENANCE.
HUM.
I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S INTERESTING INTERPRETATION OF IT, RIGHT?
YOU KNOW, FOR ME, IT IS NOT A JOURNEY, RIGHT?
THIS WAS MORE THAN A JOURNEY FOR OUR PEOPLE I THINK AND THE JOURNEY WILL NEVER END, RIGHT?
IT'S GOING TO BE THERE FOREVER.
Reporter: POPE FRANCIS SAYS HE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT BUT HOPES THIS HISTORIC GESTURE OF ATONEMENT WILL BRING SOME MEASURE OF RELIEF AND HEALING.
THAT WAS OUR PAULA NEWTON REPORTING FOR YOU THERE.
> FOR MORE ON THIS I'M JOINED NOW BY PAUL ANDREW, A SURVIVOR OF A CATHOLIC RUN RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL.
PAUL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.
I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND I'D LIKE TO BEGIN WITH YOUR STORY.
FIRST AND FOREMOST HOW DID YOU END UP GOING TO ONE OF THESE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS?
WELL, I WAS 8 YEARS OLD.
I REMEMBER MY MOM TAKING ME DOWN TO THE BEACH.
IN THOSE DAYS WE JUST HAD A PLANE COMING IN ON FLOATS AND SHE WAS CRYING AND THERE WAS THREE OF US.
AND WE DIDN'T WANT TO GO OBVIOUSLY.
WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.
AND THEN WE GOT ON THE PLANE.
I DON'T REMEMBER THE FIRST YEAR I SPENT IN RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL.
AND THAT'S, I WAS 8 YEARS OLD AND THEN LATER I WENT BACK.
I WAS IN MY TEENAGE YEARS AND IT WASN'T SO BAD.
BUT THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL WAS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE OF THE MILITARY ATMOSPHERE, THE ABUSE THAT OCCURRED, AND TIMES LIKE THIS I REMEMBER MY TEAM MATES, MY ROOM MATES, MY CLASS MATES, AND ALL OF THE OTHER PEOPLE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT MAKE IT HOME.
SO I THINK A LOT ABOUT THOSE THINGS AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT DID NOT MAKE IT HOME.
I STRUGGLED.
I DID WELL IN MY WORK.
BUT FOR A LONG TIME I LOST THE LANGUAGE.
I LOST THE STORIES OF, AND SONGS, AND EVERYTHING ABOUT WHO I WAS.
IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR A LONG TIME.
IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS CULTURAL GENOCIDE.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
OH, I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH THAT.
I AM HOPING THAT THE POPE WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, THAT IN HIS APOLOGY IT WOULD BE A GENOCIDE IN THERE.
ESSENTIALLY I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE AGREE THE CHURCH GAVE COLONIZERS PERMISSION TO DO WHAT THEY DID.
AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I CERTAINLY FELT MYSELF IS THAT WHEN I SPOKE MY LANGUAGE THEY WOULD DEFINITELY STRAP ME.
THEY WOULD DEFINITELY HIT ME BECAUSE OF THOSE KIND OF THINGS.
I KNOW OTHER STUDENTS WHO HAD THE SAME THING AND THAT APOLOGY OF THE CANADIAN DEPARTMENT, THE PRIME MINISTER APOLOGIZED FOR THIS, HE SAID WE HAD A POLICY TO KILL THE INDIAN IN THE CHILD.
SO IT WAS THE CHURCH, THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRYING OUT THAT POLICY.
NOWADAYS THEY DID NOT NECESSARILY KILL THE INDIAN IN THE CHILD.
BUT THEY LEFT SOME VERY WOUNDED, DEEPLY, DEEPLY WOUNDED CHILDREN THAT ARE STILL STRUGGLING.
I'M IN MY 70s AND I'M STILL STRUGGLING FROM THAT.
AND WHEN I SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS AND PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES A LOT OF MY OWN EXPERIENCES COME BACK TO ME.
WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SHARE ONE OF YOUR HARDEST EXPERIENCES THAT STAYS WITH YOU AND LEFT YOU SCARRED AND STRUGGLING?
ONE OF THE THINGS SEXUAL ABUSE DOES IS IT SEVERS ANY KIND OF RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU HAVE WITH PEOPLE.
AND WE AS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVE ON THE LAND.
AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE ARE CONNECTED TO EVERYTHING.
OUR RELATIONSHIP IS BASED ON ALL OF THOSE CONNECTIONS.
WE HAVE CERTAIN RESPONSIBILITIES THAT GO WITH THOSE CONNECTIONS.
AND WE HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH IMMEDIATE FAMILY AND THE CIRCLE GETS WIDER.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH SEXUAL ABUSE PARTICULARLY IS THAT IT SEVERED THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.
WHEN YOU ARE A YOUNG CHILD YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT.
YOU BEGIN TO THINK THAT THIS NEW WAY OF RELATIONSHIP IS THE WAY TO DO THAT.
IT'S OKAY TO HIT PEOPLE.
IT'S OKAY TO BE ANGRY.
IT'S OKAY TO BE HATEFUL.
BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT CAME UP TO MY MIND.
AND I THINK THAT WAS DIFFICULT TO REALLY GO THROUGH BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT I COME FROM ARE LOVING.
THEY'RE VERY, VERY CAREFUL TO TAKE CARE OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE AS WELL AS ANYBODY ELSE.
THERE IS A LOT OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
THERE IS HARMONY WITH THE COMMUNITY NOT ONLY WITH THE ELDERS AND OTHER YOUTH BUT ALSO THE ENVIRONMENT, LIKE I SAID.
AND ALL OF THAT GOT CONNECTED.
SO WHEN THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL WAS OVER AND I WENT BACK TO THE COMMUNITY, I COULDN'T FIT IN THE NON-INDIGENOUS WORLD AND I COULDN'T FIT IN MY WORLD AND ONE OF THE THINGS I KNOW IS THAT A LOT OF MY TEAM MATES, CLASS MATES, ROOM MATES SAY THE SAME THING.
WE ARE JUST IN THE MIDDLE OF TWO CULTURES THAT WE DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH.
SORT OF SUSPENDED IN AIR ALMOST.
I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE ABOUT THIS AND THEY ALWAYS SAY THEY FEEL THE SHAME.
BUT THE SHAME SHOULD BE ON THE ADULTS AND THE INSTITUTIONS THAT PERPETRATED THIS ON YOU.
I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT POPE FRANCIS SAID, VERY STRIKING APOLOGY.
HE SAID SORRY FOR THE WAYS IN WHICH REGRETTABLY MANY CHRISTIANS SUPPORTED THE COLONIZING POLICIES OF THE POWERS THAT OPPRESS THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
I AM SORRY.
I ASK FOR FORGIVENESS IN PARTICULAR FOR THE WAYS IN WHICH MANY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH AND OF RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES COOPERATED, NOT LEAST THROUGH THEIR INDIFFERENCE, IN PROJECTS OF CULTURAL DESTRUCTION AND FORCED ASSIMILATION PROMOTED BY THE GOVERNMENTS OF THAT TIME, WHICH CULMINATED IN THE SYSTEM OF RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
THAT IS QUITE AN APOLOGY AND CERTAINLY DOES NOT ERASE THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THAT YOU STILL GO THROUGH TO THIS DAY, BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF POPE FRANCIS'S APOLOGY?
WELL, IT GOES A LONG WAY.
THIS IS PROBABLY LIKE YOU SAY, VERY DEEP, HEART FELT AND I THINK IT DOES GO A LONG, LONG WAYS.
NOW WHAT WE NEED IS SOME ACTION TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT.
PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF ARE GOING THROUGH SOME TOUGH MENTAL ANGUISH IN SOME CASES RIGHT NOW AS WE TALK ESPECIALLY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT UNMARKED GRAVES.
WE THINK ABOUT OUR CHILDREN.
WE THINK ABOUT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT NEVER MADE IT BACK.
SO HOW DO WE SUPPORT THOSE PEOPLE?
THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SUPPORT SYSTEM SET IN PLACE AND THE CHURCH REALLY HELPING.
THE CHURCH HAS MADE SOME RATHER ALARMING DISTINCTIONS.
FOR EXAMPLE THEY HAD AGREED TO RAISE $25 MILLION TO HELP WITH HEALING.
THEY SKIPPED OUT OF THAT.
THEY SPENT MONEY ON LAWYERS AND THEY BUILT A CHURCH.
AND THEY HAVE, WHAT THEY HAVE ALSO TRIED TO DO WAS ASK PARISHIONERS FOR COLLECTIONS TO PAY FOR SOME OF THOSE AGREEMENTS.
THIS IS NOT WITH THE PARISHIONERS.
IT IS WITH THE CHURCH.
YOU ARE LOOKING FOR COMPENSATION IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS AND I JUST WANT TO SAY TO YOU THAT I AM SO SORRY YOU EXPERIENCED THIS.
REALLY LIFE CHANGING AND GENERATIONAL ISSUE THAT WILL BE SOMETHING THAT STAYS WITH YOU FOR YOUR WHOLE LIFE.
I HOPE THAT YOU GET SOME RELIEF.
PAUL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
THANK YOU.
> SUCH AN IMPORTANT STORY AND OUR THANKS TO ALL THE SURVIVORS WHO ARE SPEAKING OUT.
> FINALLY, A TEAR JERKING SURPRISE FOR THE AUDIENCE AT THIS WEEKEND'S NEWPORT FOLK FESTIVAL.
LEGENDARY SINGER JOANIE MITCHELL GRACED THE STAGE IN RHODE ISLAND ALONGSIDE BRANDY CARLISLE A RARE APPEARANCE FOR MITCHELL WHO SUFFERED A BRAIN ANEURYSM IN 2015.
TAKE A LISTEN.
♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ I'VE LOOKED AT LIFE FROM BOTH SIDES NOW ♪ ♪ FROM WIN AND LOSE AND STILL SOMEHOW ♪ ♪ I RECALL I REALLY DON'T KNOW LIFE I REALLY DON'T KNOW LIFE AT ALL ♪
SHE'S STILL GOT IT.
SURROUNDED BY WINONA JUDD YOU SAW BEHIND HER AND OTHER MUSICAL LEGENDS THE PAIR SANG 13 CLASSICS LIKE 'BOTH SIDES NOW' AND 'BIG YELLOW TAXI.'
IT WAS MITCHELL'S FIRST FULL SET SINCE 2002.
SHE EVEN PERFORMED AN ELECTRIC GUITAR SOLO.
IT IS SO GREAT TO SEE HER BACK IN THE SADDLE AGAIN.
THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.