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> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP?
FOR THE FIRST TIME I WAS MORE AFRAID TO WORK AT THE CAPITOL THAN IN MY ENTIRE DEPLOYMENT TO IRAQ.
UNDER ATTACK BY HOME-GROWN INSURRECTIONISTS.
POLICE DESCRIBE THAT FATEFUL DAY AS HEARINGS INTO THE JANUARY 6th CAPITOL INVASION GET UNDER WAY.
FORMER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR AND 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIR TOM KEAN JOINS ME.
THEN --
WHERE IS HE?
DEMOCRACY UNDER ATTACK IN TUNISIA.
ONCE THE ARAB SPRING SUCCESS STORY, NOW ON THE BRINK AS THE PRESIDENT TIGHTENS HIS GRIP ON POWER.
I ASK AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL WHETHER DEMOCRACY WILL SURVIVE.
PLUS --
THERE ARE VERY REAL ISSUES WITHIN THE CHURCH IN ALMOST EVERY DENOMINATION OR COMMUNION OR SETTING RIGHT NOW.
RUSSELL MOORE, ONE OF THE BIGGEST NAMES IN THE EVE GEL CALL MOVEMENT, TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY HE RESIGNED FROM THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION, AND WE GET THE LATEST FROM THE TOKYO OLYMPICS AS THE GREATEST GYMNAST OF ALL TIME, AMERICAN SIMONE BILES, WITHDRAWS.
> 'AMANPOUR' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM II.
CANDACE AND PHIL WE ARE, THE CHERYL AND MILLER, THE STRAWS FAMILY FOUNDATION, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
EXCRUCIATING TESTIMONY ON CAPITOL HILL TODAY AS FOUR POLICE OFFICERS RECOUNTED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO FIGHT THE CAPITOL RIOTERS ON JANUARY 6th.
IT WAS THE FIRST PUBLIC HEARING INTO THE INSURRECTION, AND HERE IS SOME OF THEIR FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS.
THE RIOTERS CALLED ME TRAITOR, A DISGRACE AND SHOUTED THAT I, I, AN ARMY VETERAN AND POLICE OFFICER, SHOULD BE EXECUTED.
AT ONE POINT I CAME FACE TO FACE WITH AN ATTACKER WHO REPEATEDLY LAUNCHED FOR ME AND ATTEMPTED TO REMOVE MY FIREARM.
I HEARD CHANTING FROM SOME IN THE CROWD GET HIS GUN AND KILL HIM WITH HIS OWN GUN.
TERRORISTS PUSHED THROUGH THE LINE AND ENGAGEDIES IN HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT.
SEVERAL ATTEMPTED TO KNOCK ME OVER AND STEAL MY BATON.
ONE LATCHED ON TO MY FACE AND GOT HIS THUMB IN MY RIGHT EYE ATTEMPTING TO GOUGE IT OUT.
NO ONE HAD EVER, EVER CALLED ME A [ BLEEP ] WHILE WEARING THE UNIFORM OF A CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER.
IT IS HARD TO HEAR, HARDER TO SEAN.
FIFE PEOPLE DIED THAT DAY AND OVER 100 OFFICERS WERE INJURED, BUT INCREDIBLY DESPITE THIS ATTACK ON THE NATION AND ITS VALUES, REPUBLICANS HAVE GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY TO DOWNPLAY AND TRY TO OBSTRUCT THIS INQUIRY.
STILL, HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI HAS MANAGED TO GET A BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE ALTHOUGH SHE BLOCKED TWO REPUBLICAN MEMBERS WHO HAD OPENLY OPPOSED THE WHOLE PROCESS, ONE OF WHOM MIGHT BE AN ACTUAL MATERIAL WITNESS TO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INVOLVEMENT IN THAT INSURRECTION.
CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER, ONE OF TWO REPUBLICANS SERVING ON THIS PANEL, COULD NOT HOLD BACK HIS TEARS WHEN HE THANKED THE OFFICERS FOR THEIR SERVICE.
YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THAT DAY.
YOU GUYS HELD.
YOU KNOW, DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR PBAD DAYS.
WE WE'RE DEFINED HOW WE COME BACK FROM THE BAD DAYS.
RELIVING THAT DAY AND HOW WE MOVE FORWARD IN THE FUTURE.
JOINING ME NOW IS THE FORMER 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIR TOM KEAN.
WELCOME TO THE BRAM.
I REALLY THINK YOU'RE THE PERFECT GUEST BECAUSE YOU HAD AN INDEPENDENT BIPARTISAN COMMISSION FOR 9/11 AND NOW WE HAVE THIS SORT OF HYBRID FOR JANUARY 6th.
DO YOU BELIEVE AFTER THIS OPENING DAY THAT IT IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GET TO THE TROUT AND MAKE A DIFFERENT FOR THE FUTURE?
IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HELPFUL BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT THINGS WE DON'T KNOW ALREADY ON THIS TERRIBLE DAY, BUT IT'S HARD BECAUSE IT IS NOT BIPARTISAN AS IT SHOULD BE.
WHETHER OR NOT THE AMERICAN POEM WILL, THEREFORE, ACCEPT ITS FINDINGS OR WHETHER PEOPLE WILL FIGHT OVER THOSE FINDINGS WE STILL HAVE TO SEE, BUT AT LEAST WE'RE HAVING SOME SORT OF INVESTIGATION NO SOMETINTO SOME THAT HAS TO BE INVESTIGATE FEDERAL WE'RE GOING TO GO ON IN THE FUTURE IN THIS DEM
I IT'S IMPORTANT.
I WANT TO DRILL DOWN ON THAT BEFORE I GET TO THE SPECIFICS, THE VERY DRAMATIC SPECIFICS OF WHAT TRANSPIRED TODAY.
YOU KNOW, YOU SAY WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ACCEPT BRIEFLY IF YOU COULD, AND WHAT YOU DID AND IN FACT CONGRESS DID ON YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS.
WELL, WE WERE AUTHORIZED BY THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS AND THEN BY THE PRESIDENT.
THE MEMBERS WERE APPOINTED BY BOTH PARTIES IN BOTH HOUSES, AND I WAS THE CHAIRMAN APPOINTED BY THE PRESIDENT.
AND THEN -- I DID SOMETHING ELSE WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE VERY IMPORTANT.
WHEN I WAS THEN CHAIRMAN I MET THE VICE CHAIRMAN FOR THE FIRST TIME, LEE HAMILTON, WHO WAS A VERY RESPECTED MEMBER OF CONGRESS FOR YEARS.
I SAID, LEE, I'M GOING TO DO NOTHING ON THIS COMMISSION WITHOUT YOUR APPROVAL.
NOW, IN CONGRESS THE CHAIRMAN IS EVERYTHING.
THE VICE CHAIRMAN IS NOTHING.
SO LEE WAS TAKEN BACK BY THAT, AND WHEN THE DEMOCRATS HEARD THAT I WAS GOING TO DO NOTHING AS CHAIRMAN WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE VICE CHAIRMAN, THE DEMOCRAT, THINGS GOT A LOT EASIER BECAUSE -- AND WE DID THINGS TOGETHER.
WE MOVED THROUGH THE PROCESS.
EVERYTHING WE DID WAS BIPARTISAN, ACCEPTED AS BIPARTISAN, AND, THEREFORE, NEITHER SIDE WAS ABLE TO CRITICIZE IT.
THAT WAS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.
UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS NOT SET UP THAT WAY.
REPUBLICANS DON'T HAVE ANY VETO POWER.
IT'S GOING TO BE RUN BY THE DEMOCRATS AND HOPEFULLY RUN WELL BY THE DEMOCRATS, BUT IT'S -- IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO HAVE AN ACCEPTED -- IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND THE TRUTH, FIRST OF ALL, AND SECONDLY HAVE TO V IT ACCEPTED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IF IT'S NOT OUTWARDLY BIPARTISAN.
SO LET ME ASK YOU, YOU KNOW, IT WAS VERY DRAMATIC, THE TESTIMONY FROM THESE FOUR POLICE OFFICERS AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS TRADITIONALLY STOOD FOR LAW AND ORDER AND, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE CONSTANTLY PAYING LIP SERVICE TO THE VALUE OF THE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, UNIFORMED MILITARY AND THE POLICE AND THIS AND THAT, BUT IT APPEARS THAT THIS TIME, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO NECESSARILY BE PART OF THIS PROCESS.
THEY BLOCKED A LOT OF IT.
LET ME ASK YOU WHAT YOU MADE OF, FOR INSTANCE, ONE OF THE OFFICERS WHO MORE THAN A DOZEN TIMES DESCRIBED THE INSURRECTIONISTS AS TERRORISTS.
ANOTHER OFFICER WHO TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RACIAL ABUSE THAT HE HAD SUFFERED AND TALKED ABOUT HOW HE WAS -- HE BELIEVED THAT THIS WASN'T JUST A SPONTANEOUS INSURRECTION OR WHATEVER, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS PLANNED.
FIRST, THE USE OF THE WORD TERRORISTS BY ONE OF THE OFFICERS.
YEAH.
WELL, IT IS TERRORISM.
IF YOU ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES CAPITOL FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE I GUESS THE WAR OF 1812 AND DO IT WITH YOUR OWN CITIZENS THAT'S TERRORISM, SO I WOULD ACCEPT THAT, TOTALLY.
AND WE'VE GOT -- YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT TO MOVE ON FROM HERE AND FIND OUT THE FACTS.
IT WAS A CONSPIRACY?
DID PEOPLE GET AHEAD OF TIME AND DECIDE TO DO IT TOGETHER?
WAS IT AN ATTEMPT TO INVADE THE CAPITOL OR EVEN MORE TO DISRUPT THE PROCESS OF CERTIFYING THE ELECTION, OR WAS IT SOMETHING PEOPLE GET VERY EMOTIONAL, THOUGHT THE ELECTION WAS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM AND ALL OF A SUDDEN RESPONDED TO THE WORDS OF THE PRESIDENT THAT WAS IRRATIONAL?
THIS HEARING HAS GOT TO TELL US THE ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS, AND IF -- IF IN FACT IT WAS A PLANNED CONSPIRACY, THEN WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT A LOT MORE ABOUT IT AND MAKE SURE THAT NEVER EVER HAPPENS AGAIN.
GOVERNOR, SO FAR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS CHARGED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE.
I THINK TODAY WE'VE HEARD THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS MORE CHARGES THAT HAVE BEEN LAID DOWN AND ONE OF THE OFFICERS, AND HIS NAME, OF COURSE, IS HARRY DUNN, TODAY HINTED OR SAID OUTRIGHT THAT HE GOT EARLY INDICATIONS OF THIS BEING MORE PLANNED THAN SPONTANEOUS.
LET'S JUST PLAY THAT BIT OF HIS TESTIMONY.
AROUND 10:56 A.M. I RECEIVED A TEXT MESSAGE FROM A FRIEND FORWARDING A SCREEN SHOT OF WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE POTENTIAL PLAN OF ACTION VERY DIFFERENT FROM A PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION.
THE SCREENSHOT BORE THE CAPTION JANUARY 6th, PROUDLY POINT, LINCOLN PARK AND SAID THE OBJECTIVE WAS THE CAPITOL.
IT SAID AMONGST OTHER THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS GIVEN US MARCHING ORDERS AND TO KEEP YOUR GUNS HIDDEN.
THAT'S -- THAT'S PRETTY DRAMATIC.
HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY FROM A CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER?
WELL, IT'S ENORMOUSLY DRAMATIC AND, YOU KNOW, WHO FUNDED IT.
IF -- IF THESE PEOPLE WERE PLANNED AND CAME TOGETHER WHO ACTUALLY DISRUPTED THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, WHO PLANNED THE DISRUPTION AND WAS -- WAS IT -- WAS IT TO STOP THE CERTIFYING OF THE ELECTION?
DID THEY FEEL SOMEHOW THAT THE ELECTION COULD BE STOPPED AT THAT POINT?
IT'S CRAZY TO THINK THAT ANYBODY THOUGHT THAT, BUT MAYBE THEY DID.
A LOT OF CRAZY PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS THING, BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE THE FACTS.
THIS IS WHY WE'VE GOT TO NOT ONLY GET THE FACTS BUT HOPEFULLY WE'LL HAVE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE IN A BIPARTISAN SENSE ACCEPT THE FACTS AND SO WE CAN MOVE ON THEM.
MM-HMM.
SIR, LET ME PLAY A PRETTY STRONG PIECE OF TESTIMONY BY OFFICER FANONE WHO HAS SPOKEN QUITE A LOT IN PUBLIC, AND HE'S DESCRIBED THE PROCESS AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN VILIFIED BY TRUMP SUPPORTERS, BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO DISAGREE WITH WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.
THIS WAS WHAT HE SAID IN HIS OPENING TESTIMONY TODAY.
WHAT MAKES THE STRUGGLE HARDER AND MORE PAINFUL IS TO KNOW SO MANY OF MY FELLOW CITIZENS, INCLUDING SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE I PUT MY LIFE AT RISK TO DEFEND ARE DOWNPLAYING OR OUTRIGHT DENYING WHAT HAPPENED.
I FEEL LIKE I WENT TO HELL AND BACK TO PROTECT THEM AND THE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM, BUT TOO MANY ARE NOW TELLING ME THAT HELL DOESN'T EXIST OR THAT HELL ACTUALLY WASN'T THAT BAD.
THE INDIFFERENCE SHOWN TO MY COLLEAGUES IS DISGRACEFUL!
GOVERNOR, I'M JUST GOING ASK YOU AS A REPUBLICAN, I MEAN, DO YOU SYMPATHIZE WITH HIM, AND WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR PARTY AND THOSE WHO HAVE CONSISTENTLY PLAYED THIS THING DOWN AND HAVE DONE WHAT FANONE SAYS IS DISGRACEFUL?
WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, THESE DAYS IN WASHINGTON POLITICS SEEMS TO INVADE EVERYTHING, EVEN THE MOST SERIOUS THINGS LIKE THIS INVASION OF THE CAPITOL, AND SOMEHOW WE'VE GOT TO GET EACH OTHER BACK ON BOARD.
IT'S IN THE COUNTRY'S BEST INTEREST, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED HERE, HOW IT HAPPENED, WHO WAS INVOLVED, WHO, IF ANYBODY, FUNDED IT.
WAS IT A CONSPIRACY, WASN'T IT A CONSPIRACY?
THESE ARE ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS FOR THE DEMOCRACY, NOT FOR REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS, FOR THE DEMOCRACY AND IN ORDER TO FIND ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION EVERYBODY SHOULD GET ON BOARD.
UNFORTUNATELY IT'S OFF TO A ROCKY START BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT A BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE AND IT'S A COMMITTEE IN WHICH ONE PARTY HAS OVERWHELMING DOMINANCE.
THAT'S TOO BAD, BUT WE'VE GOT TO STILL GOT TO TAKE WHAT WE CAN GET OUT OF THESE HEARINGS WHAT, WE CAN GET OUT OF THIS COMMITTEE AND HOPEFULLY BRING EVERYBODY ON BOARD PROVIDED THE COMMITTEE IS RUN AS IT SHOULD BE RUN AND I HOPE IT WILL BE TO GET THE FACTS WITHOUT CARING ABOUT REPUBLICAN FACTS OR DEMOCRATIC FACTS BUT FACTS FOR THE COUNTRY.
THE PROBLEM, IS OF COURSE, THERE ISN'T BOTH SIDERISM.
BOTH SIDES ARE NOT, YOU KNOW -- ARE NOT EQUAL IN THIS CASE.
THERE'S AN ACTUAL VIOLENT INSURRECTION BY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AGAINST A LEGITIMATE CONSTITUTIONAL PROCESS, AND -- AND I JUST WONDER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE OR WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THINKS BECAUSE 58% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SUPPORT THIS CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION.
OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, IT BREAKS DOWN ALONG PARTY LINES, SO IT'S NOT THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THAT SURPRISING THAT MOST OF THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT ARE DEMOCRATS, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAD GOING FOR YOU, AND I'VE HEARD YOU SPEAK ABOUT IT, IS THAT YOU WERE NOT IN POWER.
THOSE WHO WERE CHAIRING AND MANAGING THE 9/11 COMMISSION WERE NOT ACTUALLY SITTING POLITICIANS WHEREAS IN THIS CASE THEY ARE, AND IT WAS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO VOTED AGAINST AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION IN THIS CASE.
WHO ARE THE PITFALLS AND THE PERILS OF NOT HAVING, YOU KNOW, OUTSIDE POLITICIANS OR OFFICIALS MANAGING THIS PROCESS?
WELL, I -- I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE SPEAKER ABOUT THIS EARLY ON, AND I RECOMMENDED STRONGLY THAT IT BE DONE THAT WAY AGAIN BECAUSE WE HAD NOBODY WHO WAS GOING TO RUN FOR OFFICE AGAIN NOBODY WHO WAS IN OFFICE RIGHT THEN, NOBODY WHO HAD ANY STAKE IN HOW IT CAME OUT POLITICALLY EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AT THAT POINT RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.
NOBODY HAD A STAKE IN IT.
EVERYBODY CAME OUT OF A TRADITION OF TRYING TO HELP THE DEMOCRACY, AND I THINK IT'S A LOT EASIER TO DO IS IN THE CASE WHERE THERE'S SO MUCH EMOTION INVOLVED WITH CITIZENS WHO ARE NOT CURRENTLY INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, BUT WE'RE NOT THERE, UNFORTUNATELY.
WE'RE UNABLE TO DO THAT FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND SO I THINK WE'RE STUCK WITH THIS COMMITTEE.
HOPEFULLY THIS COMMITTEE WILL CONDUCT ITSELF HONORABLY AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT PEOPLE IN BOTH PARTIES ON THE COMMITTEE HAVE TO SAY AND HOPEFULLY THERE WILL BE A UNANIMOUS REPORT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN ACCEPT AND MOVE ON FROM.
AND FINALLY, GOVERNOR, I JUST WANT TO BROADEN IT OUT SLIGHTLY.
IT IS A FINAL QUESTION.
AGAIN, AS A FORMER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS UNBELIEVABLE WEAPONIZATION OF FACTS AND THE TRUTH, NOT JUST IN THIS INSTANCE WHICH IS A COMPLETE ATTACK ON YOUR DEMOCRACY WHICH WE ALL AROUND THE WORLD ARE FRANKLY PERTURBED BY AND ARE WATCHING TO SEE HOW IT PANS OUT BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF COVID.
I MEAN, YOU'RE GOT -- YOU HAVE GOT A CORRUPTION OF THE TRUTH THAT IS KILLING PEOPLE AND THAT YOU HAVE REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS STILL UNABLE TO GET THEMSELVES TOGETHER TO SAY HAVE YOUR VACCINES AND PROTECT YOURSELF AND PROTECT THE NATION THIS.
GOES EVEN BEYOND THE CAPITOL IN TERMS OF PROTECTING THE UNITED STATES, GOVERNOR, RIGHT?
YES.
I THINK, BY THE WAY, THAT'S LESS AND LESS TRUE.
MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE COMING AROUND TO SAYING THAT EVERYBODY OUGHT TO HAVE THE VACCINE AND IT'S NOT ONLY HURTING YOURSELF, IT'S HURTING YOUR NAISH AND FRIENDS AND EVERYBODY ELSE IF YOU DON'T SO I THINK THAT'S CHANGE AND CHANGING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT WE'RE IN A POINT IN OUR DEMOCRACY HERE WHERE WE'RE NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER PROPERLY.
WE'RE NOT RELYING ON FACTS.
WE DON'T HAVE A NEWS SOURCE THAT WE ALL AGREE WITH AND ALL OF THAT IS PUTTING THIS DEMOCRACY IN GREATER AND GREATER JEOPARDY SO SOMEHOW WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK.
WE'VE GO TO GET BACK TO THE FACTS.
WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK TO PEOPLE WE TRUST AND TRUST IN EACH OTHER AND WORKING NOT A WAY THAT WE USED TO WORK TOGETHER IN THIS DEMOCRACY SO THAT THE COUNTRY ALWAYS CAME BEFORE PARTY AND THE CONSCIENCE ALWAYS CAME ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE.
SOMEHOW WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK TO THAT.
GOVERNOR KEE AN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WISDOM AND PERSPECTIVE TODAY.
THANKS A LOT.
THANK YOU.
> WHILE WE'VE SEEN THAT THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN AND PERHAPS REMAINS IN JEOPARDY, THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS ALSO UNDERSCORING EXACTLY HOW IMPORTANT IT FINDS THE FACT OF DEMOCRACY ABROAD.
IT TUNISIA AFTER MONTHS OF QUARRELING OVER THE DIRE ECONOMIC SITUATION AND THE HANDLING OF COVID, THE COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT HAS SACKED THE GOVERNMENT NOW.
THERE WERE CELEBRATIONS IN THE STREET, BUT OTHERS SAY IT'S A COUP.
A CURFEW IS NOW IN PLACE, AND PUBLIC GATHERINGS ARE BANNED.
TEN YEARS AGO TUNISIA WAS THE FIRST TO DEMAND DEMOCRACY IN WHAT BECAME THE ARAB SPRING AND SO WHAT HAS GONE WRONG.
CORRESPONDENT BEN WEDEMAN CHARGED WITH TUNISIA'S FRAGILE JOURNEY.
Reporter: TEN YEARS AGO IT WAS THE FIRST ARAB COUNTRY TO TOPPLE ITS AGING DICTATOR DINLEY IN WHAT BECAME KNOWN AS THE ARAB SPRING.
WHICH BROUGHT DOWN AUTOCRATS ALSO IN EGYPT, YEMEN AND LIBYA AND DREW LIBYA AND SYRIA EACH INTO A DECADE OF WAR.
IN TUNISIA HOPES WERE HIGH THAT AN ERA OF DEMOCRACY WAS FINALLY DAWNING.
AND DEMOCRACY DID DAWN, MESSY, CHAOTIC AND DIVISIVE.
WHAT DIDN'T COME WITH DEMOCRACY WAS PROSPERITY.
SADDLED WITH DEBT LEFT BEHIND BY THE DICTATORSHIP, THE ECONOMY STAGNATED.
MADE WORSE BY ONE OF AFRICAS SEVEREST COVID OUTBREAKS.
THIS LAW PROFESSOR AND POLITICAL INDEPENDENT CAME TO POWER IN A LANDSLIDE ELECTION TWO YEARS AGO, BUT SINCE THEN HE CLASHED WITH THE PRIME MINISTER NOW SACKED AND WITH PARLIAMENT.
THE ARAB SPRING BEGAN IN TUNISIA, AND PERHAPS THERE IT WILL END.
LIBERTY AND FREEDOM ARE WONDERFUL, BUT YOU CAN'T BEAT DEMOCRACY.
BEN WEDEMAN THERE.
JOINING ME NOW FROM IT UNIES TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS, THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA AT AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
CAN I ASK YOU SINCE YOU'RE SITTING THERE IN IT UNIES AND PROBABLY ALSO MINDFUL OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ON YOUR STREETS AS WELL AS THE RECKONING HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THE TURMOIL WHERE YOU ARE AND PERHAPS THE RISK TO DEMOCRACY RIGHT NOW?
FIRST OF ALL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.
I THINK YOU EXPLAINED QUITE WELL THE CONTEXT IN THE VIDEO THAT YOU SHOWED.
TUNISIA HAS BEEN UNDERGOING A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS FOR TEN YEARS NOW SINCE IT TOPPLED ITS LONGTIME DICTATOR IN 2011, AND THERE WERE MANY ACHIEVEMENTS REALIZED SINCE THEN WITH FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, A NEW DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUTION AND A NEW SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE.
HOWEVER, THERE WAS ALSO A LOT OF DISENCHANTMENT AND DISCONTENT WITH THE MISMANAGEMENT OF THE COUNTRY WITH LACK OF JOBS, THE DIRE ECONOMIC SITUATION AND MOST RECENTLY THE MISHANDLING OF THE HEALTH CRISIS DUE TO THE COVID-19, AND SO POPULAR DEMANDS WERE MOUNTING TO DISMANTLE THE PARLIAMENT AND TO PUT A HALT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, AND THESE DEMANDS MET ALSO WITH PRESIDENT SAY YESTERDAY'S OWN CRITICISM OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROCESS AND HIS VISION OF A NEW DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT IS MORE DIRECT AND BASED ON LOCAL ELECTIONS SO IT WASN'T THAT MUCH A SURPRISE TO SEE THAT PEOPLE WERE CHEERING AT THE STREETS.
NOW WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IN TUNISIA NO MATTER HOW DYSFUNCTIONAL, INEFFECTIVE AND FLAWED IT WAS DID KEEP THE COUNTRY AS A ROLE MODEL FOR DEMOCRACY IN THE REGION WHICH WAS PLAGUED BY WARS AND DICTATORSHIPS, DID PREVENT ALSO A DESCENT INTO A CIVIL WAR AND CREATED A NEW SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE WHERE THERE WERE CHECKS AND BALANCES.
RIGHT.
YOU'VE RAISED SOME REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS.
SO, YES, THAT'S WHY WE'RE LOOKING AT TUNISIA BECAUSE EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBE IT WAS THE GREAT HOPE OF YOUR REGION.
AND NOW, WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT ZAID SAYS AND WHAT HE'S DONE IS CONSOLIDATED POWER, INSTITUTED A CURFEW, SUSPENDED THE PARLIAMENT AND FIRED THE GOVERNMENT.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A WAY OUT OF THIS TOWARDS RE-ESTABLISHING DEMOCRACY, OR IS THIS GOING TO BE A CONSOLIDATION OF POWER AND LET'S SAY -- LET'S SAY YESTERDAY WHEN GENERAL CECE CRACKED DOWN AND NOW BASICALLY PRESIDES OVER ONE OF THE MOST AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES IN EGYPT'S HISTORY.
THE EGYPTIAN MODEL IS DEFINITELY HAUNTING MANY OF THE OBSERVERS IN TUNISIA, BUT I THINK IT IS TOO EARLY TO MAKE PRONOUNCEMENTS ON WHETHER THIS IS PUTTING HALT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS AS SUCH AND IN AN INDEFINITE WAY OR WHETHER WE CAN RE-ESTABLISH DEMOCRACY.
WHAT PRESIDENT SAYED DID IS SUSPEND THE GOVERNMENT FOR 30 DAYS, A TEMPORARY PERIOD, AND IT'S UNKNOWN WHETHER HE WILL STICK TO THAT TIME FRAME OR WHETHER HE'LL RENEW AND PROLONG THESE -- THESE EXCEPTIONAL MEASURES.
IT IS ALSO VERY UNCLEAR WHETHER HE WILL CONSOLIDATE HIS POWER ON SAFE INSTITUTIONS AND CONCENTRATE THE POWERS WHICH IS A VERY HIGH RISK IN TUNISIA GIVEN THE PAST DICTATORSHIP AND GIVEN THE REGIONAL CONTEXT OR WHETHER HE WILL CONDUCT AGREEMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS WITH CIVIL SOCIETIES AND POLITICAL PARTIES TO HAVE A ROAD MAP.
WHAT IS CLEAR FOR NOW IS THAT THERE IS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN HIS DISCOURSE ABOUT HIS WILLINGNESS TO RETURN TO THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AND TO -- NOT TO DERAIL DEMOCRACY AND THE LACK OF TRANSPARENT CLEAR ROAD MAP FOR A WAY OUT OF THIS SITUATION WHICH IS -- WHICH IS TEMPORARY BUT CAN LINGER ON AS WE SAY, AS WE KNOW, AND THERE ARE OTHER SIGNS THAT ARE WORRYING.
FOR EXAMPLE, HE MOVED TO CLOSE -- THE POLICE FORCES MOVED TO CLOSE DOWN PREMISES IN IT UNIES WHICH IS REALLY A BACKSLIDING ON FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
THERE ARE ALSO ALL KINDS OF OTHER SIGNS THAT ARE WORRYING AND PUT THE GAIN AND THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE REVOLUTION IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS AT RISK BECAUSE THERE ARE NO CHECKS AND BALANCES.
YES.
HE HAS ALL THE POWER, AND THERE IS NO ONE TO STOP HIM BASICALLY.
RIGHT, AND, OF COURSE, THE MINUTE YOU START CRACKING DOWN ON -- ON THE FREE PRESS IT SETS A VERY, VERY CHILLING PRECEDENT AND A CHAIN OF EVENTS IN MOTION.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT PRESIDENT SAYED DESCRIBED WHAT HE WAS DOING.
HE SAID IT LAST NIGHT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MAIN OPPOSITION GROUP OR THE MAIN POLITICAL PARTY IN TUNISIA CALLING IT A COUP.
THIS IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID.
TODAY I HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY.
I AM TAKING A HISTORICAL RESPONSIBILITY.
THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT THIS MATTER IS RELATED TO A COUP NEED TO REVISE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL LESSONS.
SO ARE YOU SENSING ANY POSSIBILITY THAT IT COULD DEVELOP INTO, I DON'T KNOW, MILITARY ON THE STREET, A MILITARY CRACKDOWN?
AS YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES HAS EXPRESSED CONCERN.
THEY WILL NOT CALL IT A COUP THAT THEY SAY HAS ALL SORTS OF LEGAL CONNOTATIONS.
WHAT SHOULD THE U.S. BE DOING, YOUR PARTNERS OR TUNISIA'S PARTNERS IN -- IN -- IN THE OUTER WORLD?
I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, ON THE DETERMINATION OF WHETHER IT IS THERE IS A COUP OR NOT THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS AND DEFINITELY SAYED TRIED TO GRIND IT INTO THE CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK AND HE OVERSTEPPED HIS POWER NONETHELESS BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT GRANT HIM THE TRYING SUSPEND THE PARLIAMENT, SO I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO BE MONITORING THE SITUATION.
RIGHT NOW IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY WHETHER IT WILL GO INTO A MILITARY RULE OR NOT.
THE NEXT DAYS WILL BE REALLY CRUCIAL TO ASSESS WHAT IS THE DIRECTION THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TAKING, SO IF THERE ARE, FOR EXAMPLE, ARRESTS OF POLITICAL FIGURES, PUSHLGS OF THE POLITICAL ELITE, IF THERE ARE UNFAIR TRIALS OR MILITARY TRIALS, ET CETERA, THAT WILL BE A VERY IMPORTANT SIGN THAT WE ARE ON THE ROAD TO DICTATORSHIP, AND I BELIEVE THAT INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS OF TUNISIA SHOULD BE MUCH MORE ALARMED THAN WHAT THEY HAVE EXPRESSED RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THEIR REACTION TO THE SITUATION.
THANK YOU.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE, AS WE'VE SAID OVER AND AGAIN, TUNISIA IS THE BELLWETHER OF DEMOCRACY AND, YOU KNOW, REFORM IN YOUR PART OF THE WORLD, SO THANK YOU.
> TURNING NOW TO PERHAPS THE BIGGEST UPSET YET OF THE 2020 OLYMPICS, THE WORLD'S GREATEST GYMNAST, THE UTH SIMONE BILES, HAS PULLED OUT OF THE TEAM FINAL IN TOKYO.
THE FOUR-TIME OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST SAYS THAT SHE HAS TO FOCUS ON HER MENTAL HELP.
TAKE A LISTEN.
I JUST FELT LIKE IT WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT BETTER TO TAKE A BACK SEAT, WORK ON MY -- MY MINDFULNESS AND I KNEW THE GIRLS WOULD DO AN ABSOLUTELY GREAT JOB AND I DIDN'T WANT TO RISK THE TEAM A MEDAL FOR KIND OF MY SCREW-UPS BECAUSE THEY HAVE WORKED WAY TOO HARD FOR THAT.
WELL, THE GIRLS, AS SHE SAID, DID IN FACT SNAG A SILVER MEDAL.
OUR NEXT GUEST KNOWS SIMONE BILES VERY WELL.
SHE IS HER FORMER TEAMMATE ARAISEMENT.
THE SIX-TIME OLYMPIC MEDALIST AND FORMER USA GYMNASTICS CAPTAIN, AND SHE IS JOINING ME NOW.
WELCOME, ALY RAISMAN, TO THE PROGRAM.
LET ME JUST FIRST ASK YOU YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE HEARD SIMONE BILES JUST SAY ABOUT HER MENTAL HEALTH AND MINDFULNESS AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE WASN'T THERE WITH THE TEAM WHEN THEY CONTESTED THE EVENT TODAY.
SO SIMONE ACTUALLY WAS THERE.
SHE PERFORMED ON VAULT AND THEN SHE STAYED THERE FOR THE REST OF THE COMPETITION TO CHEER ON HER TEAMMATES.
I'M ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATED FOR SIMONE.
I FEEL SO BAD FOR HER.
I FEEL SICK TO MY STOMACH.
I'M JUST PRAYING THAT SHE'S OKAY.
I'M PRAYING THAT SHE GETS THE SUPPORT AND THE LOVE THAT SHE NEEDS.
THE IT'S -- I KNOW HOW MUCH ALL OF THE GIRLS HAVE WORKED SO HARD FOR THIS MOMENT AND I THINK THAT THEY DID AN INCREDIBLE JOB.
IT'S NOT EASY TO PERFORM IN AN OLYMPIC TEAM FINAL UNDER SUCH IMMENSE PRESSURE, AND I'M SO PROUD OF THEM FOR WINNING THE SILVER MEDAL.
HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SPOKEN TO SIMONE?
NO.
I HAVE NOT.
I HAVE REACHED OUT TO HER, YOU KNOW, BUT I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT SIMONE IS GOING THROUGH.
I HONESTLY CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE.
I KNOW HOW MUCH SIMONE HAS DREAMT OF THIS MOMENT, HOW HARD SHE'S BEEN WORK, AND SO IT'S -- I CAN'T IMAGINE AND AS I SAID JUST SENDING HER ALL THE LOVE AND SUPPORT AND I HOPE THAT SHE'S GETTING THE SUPPORT THAT SHE NEEDS.
I HOPE SO, TOO, OF COURSE, AND SO DOES ALL THE WORLD AND ALL HER FANS.
LET ME JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY SHE DID TAKE PART IN SOME OF IT.
SHE TALKED ABOUT HER PERFORMANCE ON THE VAULT AND HOW IT SORT OF CEMENTED HER DECISION.
LET'S JUST PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT.
I WAS TRYING A TWO AND A HALF AND I ENDED UP DOING A ONE AND A HALF, JUST GOT A LITTLE BIT LOST IN THE AIR WHICH IS REALLY UNFORTUNATE ESPECIALLY TO HAVE A SCORE LIKE THAT GO UP THERE FOR THE TEAM.
I FEEL LIKE I ROBBED THEM OF A COUPLE OF TENTZ AND WE COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT HIGHER IN THE RANKINGS, BUT, YEAH, I WAS TRYING A TWO AND A HALF AND I ENDED UP DOING A ONE AND A HALF WHICH WAS DEFINITELY NOT MY BEST WORK.
OKAY.
SO ALY RAISMAN, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO HEAR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CALLED THE GREATEST GYMNAST OF ALL TIMES TALK ABOUT HOW SHE COULDN'T ACTUALLY PERFORM WHAT SHE WAS TRYING TO PERFORM.
TELL US HOW THAT HAPPENS FOR SOMEBODY OF THAT EXPERIENCE AT THAT LEVEL, YOU KNOW, UNDER THAT -- UNDER THAT PRESSURE BUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS TRAINED AND TRAINED FOR THAT.
YEAH.
WELL, YOU KNOW, I ALSO JUST WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT SIMONE BILES IS HUMAN AND EVERY SINGLE ATHLETE NO MATTER HOW SUCCESSFUL THEY ARE, EVERY SINGLE ATHLETE HAS GOD DAYS AND BAD DAYS AND EVERY ATHLETE HAS PERFORMANCES THAT THEY LOOK BACK AND THEY WISH THEY DID BETTER, BUT TO BE HONEST, GETTING LOST IN THE AIR WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, AS SIMONE SAID, SHE WAS GOING FOR A TWO AND A HALF TWIST AND ENDED UP DOING A ONE AND A HALF TWIST.
IT'S VERY COMMON FOR SOME GYMNASTS AND WOULD HAPPEN TO ME SOMETIMES IN MY GYMNASTICS CAREER.
IT'S THOUGHT OF IT DID HAPPEN AT THE TEAM FINAL AT THE OLYMPIC GAMES, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING.
I'M CURIOUS WHENEVER SIMONE IS READY TO SHARE IF SHE CAN THINK ABOUT WHY SHE GOT LOST.
SOMETIMES THERE'S NO REASON BEHIND IT.
SOMETIMES YOU JUST GET A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED IN THE AIR.
I THINK GYMNASTICS IS UP OF THOSE SPORTS WHERE SOMEONE LIKE SIMONE MAKES IT LOOK EASY BUT IT'S ACTUALLY IN FACT VERY DIFFICULT SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT SHE'S ACTUALLY DOING A TWO AND A HALF TWIST, SOMETIMES YOU'RE IN THE AIR AND YOU KIND OF LOSE TRACK OF HAVE I DONE A HALF TWIST, DONE TWO TWISTS, IT GETS A LITTLE BIT CONFUSING SO IT IS IN FACT VERY COMMON.
IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, I -- I THINK IT JUST SHOWS THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, EVEN THE BEST ATHLETES IN THE WORLD, THEY HAVE GOOD DAYS AND BAD DAYS AND I COMMEND HER FOR HER BRAVERY AND SPEAKING UP AND -- AND DOING WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR HER AND WHAT SHE FELT WAS RIGHT FOR THE TEAM.
IT'S NOT EASY, BUT, YOU KNOW, EVEN THE GREATEST ATHLETES OF ALL TIME, THEY ARE NOT PERFECT AND THEY ARE HUMAN, TOO.
MM-HMM.
YEAH.
I WANT TO GET MORE TO THE HUMAN SIDE IN A SECOND, BUT FIRST I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU TO REFLECT AGAIN ON THE FACT THAT HER TEAM DID PULL OFF A -- A SILVER MEDAL, AND AS FAR AS I KNOW THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT AS EXPERIENCED AS HER.
I THINK A LOT OF THEM, IF NOT ALL OF THEM ARE FIRST-TIME OLYMPIANS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT THEY ACTUALLY DID, YOU KNOW, DO SOMETHING AMAZING.
TALK ABOUT WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THEM.
YEAH.
THE REST -- THE WHOLE TEAM DID AN INCREDIBLE JOB, AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK KNOWING -- GOING INTO THE OLYMPIC GAMES AND KNOWING YOU HAVE A TEAMMATE LIKE SIMONE BILES IS ALWAYS AN EXTRA CONFIDENCE-BOOSTER BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU CAN COUNT ON SIMONE'S SCORES, AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE TEAM FINALS IT'S THREE GIRLS GO UP ON EACH EVENT AND EVERY SINGLE SPORT COUNTS SO THERE'S FOUR GIRLS ON THE TEAM SO ONE GIRL IS NOT PERFORMING ON EACH EVENT SO, FOR EXAMPLE, JORDAN CHILES WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO GO UP ON BARS AND BEAM, AND I'M NOT SURE IF SU FISA WAS SUPPOSED TO GO ON FLOOR.
I DON'T THINK SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO GO LAST.
SO EITHER WAY THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINING FOR THE THREE UP THREE COUNT STYLE SO EVERY SINGLE DAY IN PRACTICE THEY ARE ALL GOING IN THE SAME EXACT ORDER, AND THE GIRLS THAT WERE NOT THINKING ABOUT ACTUALLY PERFORMING ON THOSE EVENTS DIDN'T EVEN WARM UP IN THE MORNING SO THEY HAD TO LIKE MENTALLY PREPARE THEMSELVES TO GO UP ON THE EVENTS WHICH IS NOT EASY TO DO, ESPECIALLY IN AN OLYMPIC TEAM FINAL SO THERE'S ALREADY ENOUGH PRESSURE AND THEN LAST MINUTE WHEN YOU'RE NOT PLANNING TO GO ON BARS OR BEAM OR FLOOR AND YOU HAVE TO GO UP, IT TAKES A LOT OF MENTAL STRENGTH TO GET YOURSELF READY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU WEREN'T EVEN ABLE TO WARM UP IN THE BACK GYM SO THEY DID A GREAT JOB AND I ALSO WANT TO SAY SIMONE WAS THERE CHEERING FOR THEM THE WHOLE TIME.
IT'S GOT TO BE SO HARD FOR HER TO WATCH THEM AND SHE DID SUCH A GREAT JOB AND I'M SO PROUD OF ALL OF THEM.
I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH THEIR BEAM.
THE BEAM IS 4 INCHES WIDE AND TO HIT IN THE TEAM FINAL WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THEIR BEST ATHLETE IS OUT I THINK REALLY SPEAKS TO THE TEAM AND HOW MENTALLY TOUGH THEY WERE SO I'M VERY PROUD OF THEM.
CAN I ASK YOU WHETHER YOU HAVE A GUT FEELING.
SHE HAS SAID AND I GUESS THE OFFICIALS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WILL ASSESS IT EACH DAY, AND SHE'S PULLED OUT OF THE TEAM EVENT, BUT I BELIEVE THERE'S SOME INDIVIDUAL COMPETITION THAT SHE COULD -- COULD TAKE PART IN.
DO YOU THINK SHE WILL?
YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW AND I PERSONALLY HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO SIMONE YET SINCE THE COMPETITION SO I'M NOT SURE.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, I'M HOPING THAT SHE'S ABLE TO, BUT AS SIMONE SAYS HER -- HER MENTAL HEALTH SHOULD BE THE PRIORITY AND IT'S THE SAME WITH ALL THE OTHER ATHLETES.
I THINK IT'S -- IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE TAKE A SECOND AND REALLY THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS ON THESE OLYMPIC ATHLETES AND THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH OF THESE ATHLETES SHOULD BE THE PRIORITY AND I THINK WE NEED TO START QUESTIONING WHAT IS THERE FOR THESE ATHLETES IN PLACE.
LIKE IS THERE SOMEONE THAT'S ABLE TO HELP SIMONE IN THIS MOMENT THAT'S ACTUALLY IN TOKYO AND IF NOT, THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS AND SO I -- I HOPE SO, BUT I HONESTLY JUST DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT MOAN IS THINKING BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY SMART TO TAKE IT DAY BY DAY AND HOPE SHE GETS A GOOD NIGHT'S SLEEP AND WAKES UP TOMORROW AND FEELS GOOD.
SO ON THAT -- ON THAT POINT THAT YOU JUST MADE, IS I GUESS U.S. GYMNASTICS, I MEAN, DO YOU FEEL THAT THEY ARE IN A POSITION TO HELP MORE, WHAT MORE COULD THEY DO, AND LET JUST NOT BEAT ABOUT THE BUSH.
YOU ALL HAD A PRETTY TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE.
YOU KNOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT, YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THE TEAM DOCTOR LARRY NASSAR WHO ABUSED SO MANY OF OF FOR SO LONG AND THAT YOU WERE NOT PROTECTED AND YOUR MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH WERE NOT -- WERE NOT PRIORITIZED.
YOU KNOW, NAOMI OSAKA HAS COME OUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS, YOU KNOW, EXPRESSING HER MENTAL FRAGILITY AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME WHETHER IT WAS PULLING OUT OF WIMBLEDON, ALSO NOW DEFEATED IN -- IN TOKYO.
THERE'S -- THERE'S MORE WILLINGNESS I THINK TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND AS YOU SAY TAKE BRAVE DECISIONS BUT THE TRAUMA IS LONG LASTING AND WHAT YOU'VE ALL HAD TO GO THROUGH IS STILL THERE.
YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, WHAT WE'VE ALL BEEN THROUGH IS SO TRAUMATIC, AND I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR EVERY SURVIVOR OBVIOUSLY BUT I JUST KNOW FROM A LOT OF THEM ARE MY FRIENDS AND I KNOW FROM CHATTING WITH A GOOD AMOUNT OF THEM THAT WE'RE STILL DEALING WITH IT EVERY SINGLE DAY AND TO BE HONEST, YOU KNOW, WHAT SIMONE EVEN WENT THROUGH TODAY AND WHAT SHE'S BEEN GOING THROUGH THE LAST FEW MONTHS, ALL OF THESE OLYMPIC ATHLETES, I THINK THERE'S SUCH -- THERE'S ALSO SORT OF THIS ANXIETY AND THIS FEAR OF DISAPPOINTING PEOPLE AND IT'S REALLY OVERWHELMING AND IT'S REALLY, REALLY SCARY.
I MEAN, I THINK BEING A PART OF THE U.S. OLYMPIC TEAM, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LUCKY THAT WE HAVE SO MANY INCREDIBLE ATHLETES BUT THERE IS SO MUCH PRESSURE TO WIN THAT GOLD MEDAL, AND IT CAN BE SO CONSUMING AND KIND OF TAKE OVER YOUR LIFE AND ALMOST -- IT FEELS LIKE IT'S HARD TO BREATHE SOMETIMES, SO I THINK IT, YOU KNOW, USA GYMNASTICS AND THE UNITED STATES OLYMPIC COMMITTEE REALLY HAVE TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT WAY THEY ARE TREATING THEIR ATHLETES.
WHEN I WAS COMPETING THERE WAS NO RESOURCES AND MENTAL HEALTH REALLY WASN'T A DISCUSSION.
I'M NOT IN TOKYO RIGHT NOW AS AN ATHLETE SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT'S AVAILABLE NOW.
I HOPE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE THAT SIMONE FEELS SAFE TO GO TO THAT CAN SUPPORT HER AND CAN GET HER THE HELP IF SHE WANTS IT, BUT I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE MORE OF A CONVERSATION GOING FORWARD AND THERE HAS TO BE PROGRAMS IN PLACE TO HELP -- TO HELP ATHLETES AND ALSO HELP ATHLETES THAT DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS THEY WANTED TO AND FEEL AFRAID THAT THEY ARE LETTING PEOPLE DOWN.
THERE'S GOT TO BE SOMEONE THERE THAT CAN HELP SUPPORT THEM THROUGH THESE HARD TIMES.
ARAISEMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
NOW WE GO TO TURMOIL AND LEADERSHIP IN THE CHURCH.
THEOLOGIAN RUSSELL MOORE IS ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL FIGURES IN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY TODAY.
BUT BACK IN MAY HE SENT SHOCK WAVES THROUGH HIS COMMUNITY AFTER RESIGNING HIS LEADERSHIP IN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION.
A LETTER WITH RACIST SENTIMENTS IS ONE OF THE REASONS HE WALKED AWAY AND HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO MICHEL MARTIN.
PASTOR RUSSELL MOORE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME, MICHEL.
OBVIOUSLY, MANY PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK, BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT, I MEAN, YOU HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE MOST HIGH-PROFILE EVANGELICAL LEADERS IN THE COUNTRY FOR MANY YEARS NOW.
FOR SOME PEOPLE YOU PROBABLY ARE THE FACE OF THE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT.
WHEN DID IT START TO GO WRONG FOR YOU?
WHEN DID THINGS INTERNALLY START TO CHANGE?
WHEN DID YOU START TO NOTICE SOME FRICTION THERE?
WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT THINGS WENT WRONG.
I THINK IN SOME WAYS THINGS WENT VERY RIGHT IN THAT I CAME TO SEE NEW WAYS TO EQUIP CHRISTIANS AND GOD DOING A NEW THING AND FRANKLY WITHIN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION THE POEM IN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION WERE OVERWHELMINGLY, NOT JUST SUPPORTIVE BUT -- BUT BEYOND SUPPORTIVE AND LOVING AND AFFIRMING.
MY BOARD WAS AS WELL.
I THINK THAT WHAT I WAS STARTING TO SEE WAS THE SAME THING THAT VIRTUALLY, I MEAN, ALMOST EVERY PASTOR I'M TALKING TO RIGHT NOW IS SEEING WHICH IS A CONGREGATION WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO LOVE EACH OTHER, REALLY WANT TO FOLLOW CHRIST AND -- AND SOMETIMES THERE'S A VERY SMALL GROUP WITHIN THAT CONGREGATION THAT DOESN'T WANT TO AND THAT CREATES A DIFFERENT KIND OF TEMPERATURE IN THE ROOM, AND SO WHAT A PASTOR HAS TO DECIDE IS DO I CONTINUE WORKING TOWARD CHANGE IN THIS CONGREGATION WHICH IS USUALLY THE WAY TO GO, OR ANOTHER WAY TO SAY MAYBE I SHOULD BE DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
SO WHY DID YOU RESIGN?
BECAUSE I STARTED TO SEE GOD DOING SOMETHING NEW IN TERMS OF PUTTING PEOPLE TOGETHER FROM MULTIPLE DENOMINATIONS THAT HAVE THE SAME CONCERN SO I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION EVERY SINGLE DAY WITH ANGLICANS AND PRESBYTERIANS AND NON-DENOMINATIONAL PEOPLE AND OTHERS WHO WERE SAYING IT SEEMS TO ME WE HAVE A MOMENT WHERE WE NEED TO PUT THE GOSPEL FIRST AND WE NEED TO PUT THE KINGDOM FIRST AND WE NEED EACH OTHER TO DO THAT SO CHRISTIANITY TODAY BEING THE WAY THAT -- THAT THE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT ESSENTIALLY LAUNCHED IN -- IN THE POST-WAR ERA, I THINK WE HAVE A VERY SIMILAR MOMENT RIGHT NOW.
SO YOU'RE FOCUSING VERY MUCH ON WHAT YOU'RE GOING TOWARD, PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT I HAVE TO SAY YOUR RESIGNATION LETTER LANDED LIKE A ROCKET.
IT WAS LEAKED.
I DON'T KNOW WHO LEAKED IT.
I KNOW THAT WE'VE ALL READ IT.
YOU'VE NOT DENIED THAT IT IS YOUR WORDS.
IT'S BLISTERING.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY BLISTERING.
YOU SAY THAT THE PRESENTING ISSUE IS NOT THE FORMER PRESIDENT.
YOU SAY THE PRESENTING ISSUE WAS THE WAY THAT THE DENOMINATION, THE LEADERSHIP WAS DEALING WITH SEXUAL ABUSE, THING ONE, BUT YOU ALSO SAY THAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY FACED CONSTANT THREATS FROM WHITE NATIONALISTS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS INCLUDING WITHIN THE CONVENTION.
DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT?
YES, YES.
THAT WASN'T A RESIGNATION LETTER.
IT WAS A LETTER THAT I HAD WRITTEN TO MY BOARD MEMBERS.
JUST THEY PRAYED WITH ME AND I WAS HELPING THEM TO SEE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE GOING OFF.
YES, I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE ARE VERY REAL ISSUES WITHIN THE CHURCH IN ALMOST EVERY DENOMINATION OR COMMUNION OR SETTING RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ISSUES OF RACIAL JUSTICE AND RECONCILIATION AND SEXUAL ABUSE.
I MEAN, I'M FINDING THIS AS RECENTLY AS JUST RIGHT BEFORE THIS -- THIS INTERVIEW TALKING TO A PASTOR WHO IS COMBATING THIS WITHIN THE CONGREGATION, AND IT CAN BE EXHAUSTING.
IT CAN BE DEMORALIZING, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT.
I HEAR YOU, BUT IT'S -- IT IS DISTURBING.
I MEAN, WHEN DID YOU START TO SEE THESE THINGS?
I MEAN, HAS THIS BEEN KIND OF A LITTLE HOME ALL ALONG SORT OF LIKE THE PILOT LIGHT IN YOUR FUR FACE THAT'S ALWAYS THERE OR WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU BECAME NEWLY AWARE OF BECAUSE OF THE PROMINENCE OF YOUR POSITION?
WELL, I THINK -- I THINK THAT ISSUES OF RACIAL JUSTICE PARTICULARLY HAD ALWAYS BEEN DISTURBING TO ME.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I WENT THROUGH A SPIRITUAL CRISIS AS A 15-YEAR-OLD WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT BIBLE BELT CHRISTIANITY AND SEEING A LOT OF VERY BLATANT RACISM AND WONDERING HOW CAN THESE TWO THINGS GO TOGETHER?
UP CANNOT READ THE BIBLE AND SEE THE ACTIONS OF JESUS AND SEEING THE SORT OF CHURCH THAT JESUS PUTS TOGETHER AND COME TO THIS KIND OF CONCLUSION, THAT RACISM IS ANYTHING OTHER THAN MORALLY WRONG, AND SO THAT'S BEEN A CONCERN FOR ME FOR -- FOR ALL OF MY LIFE.
I THINK THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE RATTLED BY SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN TERMS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AND THE TREATMENT OF SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVORS AND -- AND COVER-UPS TAKING PLACE.
AGAIN, NOT JUST IN ONE SETTING AND NOT JUST EVEN WITHIN A CHURCH SETTING BUT WITHIN -- WITHIN MULTIPLE SETTINGS IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW, BUT THE CHURCH IS CALLED TO BETTER SO WE OUGHT TO BE THE PLACE THAT IS THE TOUGHEST ON SEXUAL ABUSE AND THE PLACE THAT IS THE MOST CARING FOR SURVIVORS AND VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ABUSE.
I THINK THAT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE MUST DO BETTER.
I REMEMBER HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH A GROUP OF EVANGELICAL WOMEN A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, AND ONE OF THE WOMEN THERE SAID IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WHEN YOU'RE SEEING SOME OF THESE REVELATIONS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE WITH SOME HIGH-PROFILE SCANDALS, SOME HIGH-PROFILE COVER-UPS, IT SEEMS THAT YOU'RE RATTLED BY THAT, AND WE WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT NONE OF US ARE SURPRISED BY THIS, AND THE ENTIRE ROOMFUL OF WOMEN WERE NODDING THEIR HEADS AND THAT WAS A -- THAT WAS REALLY A KEY MOMENT FOR ME IN SEEING -- IN SEEING JUST HOW -- JUST HOW DEEP SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS GO.
YOU SAID EARLIER THAT THIS IS A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WITHIN THE CONVENTION, WITHIN THE DENOMINATION, WITHIN THE UNIVERSE, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF MAKES SENSE.
SOUTHERN BAPTISTS AT LEAST TO THE CURRENT MOMENT HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST PROTESTANT DENOMINATION SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE AREAS IN WHICH YOU HAVE CONSTANTLY FACED CRITICISM WITHIN YOUR MOVEMENT HAVE BEEN WHEN YOU SURFACED THESE ISSUES, WHEN YOU HAVE PUBLICLY CALLED FOR DIVERSITY IN THE LEADERSHIP OF CONVENTION.
WERE YOU CRITICIZED WITH THAT.
WHEN YOU HAVE SHOWCASED WOMEN WHO HAVE WANTED TO SPEAK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH SEXUAL MISCONDUCT, YOU WERE CRITICIZED FOR THAT.
MM-HMM.
IN FACT, YOU SAY IN YOUR LETTER THAT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF MY SERVICE I'VE BEEN ATTACKED WITH THE MOST VICIOUS GRILLA TACTICS ON THIS AND HAVE BEEN TOLD TO BE QUIET ABOUT THIS BY OTHERS, YOU SAID THAT YOU'VE HEARD THE MOST VICIOUS RACIST COMMENTS LIKE BEHIND THE SCENES, SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY, FORGIVE ME, THAT IT'S NOT SOMEHOW DEFINING OR PERVASIVE WITHIN THE MOVEMENT.
HOW CAN BOTH OF THOSE THINGS BE TRUE?
WELL, I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THINGS CAN BE TRUE BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE DENOMINATION AS A WHOLE WOULD DO WHEN THEY WOULD COME TOGETHER IN THEIR -- IN THEIR ANNUAL MEETINGS, THEY WOULD NOT BE IN ANY WAY IN THE DIRECTION THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, IS IN -- I WAS OFTEN SURPRISED AT JUST HOW STRONG THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION WOULD END UP BEING N THE JUAN MEETINGS IN TERMS OF SUPPORT FOR RACIAL RECONCILIATION AND JUSTICE ARE AND STANDING UP FOR SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVORS.
THAT WASN'T THE PROBLEM.
THE PROBLEM WAS WHAT WAS HAPPENING BETWEEN MEETINGS, AND -- AND -- AND I FOUND THAT THAT'S THE CASE IN A NUMBER OF INSTITUTIONS RIGHT NOW WHERE SOMETIMES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MOST OBSESSED WITH THE POLITICS, THE INTERNAL POLITICS TEND TO BE THE HEAT HEALTHY PEOPLE AND VICE VERSA.
WHAT ROLE DO YOU THINK RACE PLAYS IN THIS?
I MEAN, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT RACE HAS BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE GOSPEL?
IS IT POSSIBLE?
IN -- IN SOME SECTORS I THINK IT CERTAINLY HAS AND THIS IS NOT NEW THOUGH.
YOU LOOK BACK AT THE NEW TESTAMENT, YOU'RE GOING TO FIND SO MUCH OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THIS VERY QUESTION, WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO IDOLIZE THE FLESH AND EXERCISE DOMINION OVER ONE ANOTHER OR WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE PART OF ONE BODY AND ONE FELLOWSHIP.
THIS IS -- THIS IS A REPEATED ISSUE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, AND IT'S BEEN A REPEATED ISSUE THROUGHOUT HISTORY, SO IF YOU NOTICE EVEN WHAT WE TEND TO THINK OF AS THE CONTEMPORARY EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT HAPPENED IN THE 1940s AND '50s WITH A DIVERGING OF THOSE WHO WANTED TO BE SEPARATISTS, FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THOSE WHO WANTED TO BE GOSPEL-FOCUSED, GOSPEL-CENTERED EVANGELICALS.
THEY WERE -- IN MANY CASES THEY AGREED ON ALL THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH, BUT THEY DISAGREED VERY MUCH ABOUT THE WAYS THAT CULTURE CAN SHIFT AND CAN TAKE ANY RELIGION CAPTIVE.
I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY THE ISSUE.
YOU CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE THAT WHITE EVANGELICALS WERE AMONG THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S STRONGEST CONSTITUENCIES.
YES.
THEY ARE AMONG MOST HESITANT RIGHT NOW TO EMBRACE PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES TO CONTAIN THE CORONAVIRUS, AND IT'S ALL THE MORE NOTEWORTHY BECAUSE THESE FOLKS WHO ESPOUSED AN ETHIC OF PROTECTING THE SANCTITY OF LIFE AND YET THEY HAVE PROVEN TO BE AMONG THE MOST UNWILLING TO TAKE MEASURES TO PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF SOME LIVES, OF VULNERABLE LIVES, AND WHY IS THAT?
WHY IS THAT?
I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK WE'RE IN A -- IN A MOMENT OF A KIND OF CRISIS OF CREDIBILITY.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO REPEATEDLY, AND FRANKLY WHAT TAKES UP MOST OF MY TIME AND ENERGY RIGHT NOW IS TALKING TO YOUNG EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS WHO ARE DISILLUSIONED AND WHO ARE FIGHTING AGAINST CYNICISM.
USUALLY NOT YIELDING TO IT, BUT FIGHTING AGAINST IT, AND THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO IN MANY CASES SO WE REALLY HAVE A LONG PROJECT AHEAD OF US, OF REBUILDING EVANGELICAL CREDIBILITY ON THE BASIS OF BEING THE PEOPLE WHO -- WHO -- WHO ARE WHAT WE SAY WE ARE AND BELIEVE WHAT WE SAY WE BELIEVE.
I MEAN, THIS IS -- THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT WHEN I FIND THE SORT OF DISILLUSIONMENT TAKING PLACE AMONG YOUNGER CHRISTIANS, IT'S USUALLY NOT FOR THE REASONS THAT PEOPLE ASSUME, THAT THEY CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES.
IT'S INSTEAD JUST THE OPPOSITE.
THEY FEAR THAT THE CHURCH DOESN'T BELIEVE WHAT IT TEACHES, SO WE NEED TO BE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONSISTENT, WHO ARE WORKING TO MAINTAIN INTEGRITY AND CONSISTENCY ACROSS THE BOARD AND THAT MEANS -- THAT MEANS LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR WHEN IT COMES TO -- TO PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES AND SO FORTH AND WHAT I WOULD SAY IS WHAT I FIND OFTEN WITH SECULAR PEOPLE IS THAT THEY ASSUME THAT THE PROBLEM HERE IS -- IS PASTORS, IS THE PASTORAL LEADERSHIP AND I'VE FOUND THAT NOT TONIGHT CASE.
THERE ARE SOME HIGH-PROFILE SORT OF PAST WHORS ARE ON TELEVISION WHO ARE TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO BE VACCINATED OR THAT THE BLOOD OF JESUS WILL PROTECT YOU FROM COVID AND SO FORTH.
THAT'S VERY RARE THOUGH FROM WHAT I'M FINDING ON THE GROUND.
IN MOST CASES PASTORS ARE LEAVING HEROICALLY, NOT ONLY WITH THEIR OWN CHURCHES, BUT MANY ARE FACING REALLY SIGNIFICANT BACKLASH FROM, AGAIN, OFTEN SMALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE WITHIN CONGREGATIONS BUT A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE CAN CHANGE -- CAN CHANGE THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC SO THAT -- THAT'S A CHALLENGE AND A CRISIS FOR US RIGHT NOW.
IS THE FORMER PRESIDENT ACISM TOMORROW, OR IS HE, FORGIVE MYRICK THE DISEASE?
WAS HE THE SYMPTOM OR WAS HE THE CAUSE?
I THINK HE WAS -- I THINK HE WAS IN SOME WAYS A SYMPTOM AND IN SOME WAYS A DRIVER, AND BY DRIVER WHAT I MEAN IS SORT OF THE MODE OF DISCOURSE THAT NOW SEEMS NORMAL TO US, INCLUDING IN TERMS OF CHURCH LIFE.
I DON'T THINK HE CREATED THAT, BUT I DO THINK THAT THE LAST FIVE YEARS HAVE -- HAVE NORMALIZED THAT, SO I'LL OFTEN TALK TO PASTORS WHO WILL FEEL AS THOUGH THEY ARE FAILURES BECAUSE THEY LOOK AT FACEBOOK FEEDS OF THEIR -- THEIR MEMBERS AND THEY SEE PEOPLE USING LANGUAGE AND SARCASM AND -- AND PERSONAL ATTACK IN WAYS THAT AREN'T CONSISTENT WITH THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BEATITUDES AND THEY SAY TO THEMSELVES WHERE DID I GO WRONG?
WELL, WE'RE LIVING IN A CULTURAL ECOSYSTEM WHERE THINGS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOCKING TO US JUST A FEW YEARS AGO HAVE NOW BECOME ROUTINE AND HAVE BECOME NORMAL.
I THINK THAT THAT'S A BIG, BIG PART OF THIS.
AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, THE SOUTHERN BAPTISTS HAVE BEEN THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST PROTESTANT DENOMINATION, BUT US A NOTE CONVENTION SAW ITS LARGEST SINGLE MEMBERSHIP DROP FROM 2018 TO 2019.
JUST LIKE THE 13th STRAIGHT YEAR OF DECLINE AS I UNDERSTAND IT.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REASONS FOR THAT, AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IS -- YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY WHO IS GROWING UP AT A TIME WHEN I WAS IS SOMEBODY WHO IS REALLY TAUGHT THAT ONE'S DENOMINATIONAL IDENTITY IS ONE'S IDENTITY ALMOST.
SECONDARY TO -- TO IDENTITY IN CHRIST BUT CERTAINLY PRESENT THERE IN A WAY THAT'S NOT THE CASE NOW SO THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL MOVE FROM -- FROM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH TO METHODIST CHURCH TO BAPTIST CHURCH AND ANGLICAN CHURCH WITH RELATIVE EASE IN A WAY THAT NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE, AND THEN YOU ADD TO THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT EARLIER WITH THE SORT OF CRISIS OF CREDIBILITY AND -- AND CYNICISM AND THE SORT OF DESPAIR THAT IS COMING TOWARD INSTITUTIONS THAT SOMETIMES PEOPLE FEEL HAVE -- HAVE FAILED THEM, AND ALL THAT HAVE ADDS UP TO THE MOMENT THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN NOW.
DO YOU SEE YOUR MOVEMENT AS BEING ONE THAT CAN RECAPTURE PROMINENCE?
I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DESCRIBE IT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT IN YOUR EARLIER BOOKS 'ONWARD' IS ENGAGING THE CULTURE WITHOUT LOSING THE GOES TELL IS REALLY ABOUT ACCEPTING -- IF I CAN PUT IT AS BLUNTLY AS POSSIBLE, ACCEPTING THE FACT THAT SOME OF THE CORE PRINCIPLES THAT EVANGELICALS AT HERE TO ARE NOT SHARED BY THE BROADER SOCIETY.
THEY ARE JUST NOT.
NOT THE MAJORITY VIEW.
YEAH.
SOME PEOPLE SEE THE WAY OUR POLITICS RUN FOLDING IS A WAY FOR A MINORITY OF PEOPLE TO TRY TO DOMINATE THE MAJORITY WITH THEIR VIEWS.
YEAH.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAIR?
AND DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S POSSIBLE?
WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY SHOULD BE SEEKING TO DOMINATE ANYONE.
THE GOSPEL DOES NOT COME THROUGH COERCION.
IT COMES THROUGH PERSUASION A THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT SOMETIMES THERE'S A TENDENCY TO TRY TO FIND A GOLDEN AGE IN THE PAST WHERE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY WAS DOMINANT AND PROMINENT, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO BE LOOKING TO.
INSTEAD, I THINK WE NEED TO BE LOOKING TO FOLLOWING CHRIST WHICH MEANS HAVING CONFIDENCE IN THE GOSPEL SUCH THAT WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO SEEK PROMINENCE OR TO COERCE PEOPLE OR TO BE SOME SORT OF A POLITICAL MOVEMENT AT THE TABLE BUT INSTEAD BE THE SORT OF PEOPLE WHO CAN BEAR WITNESS TO THE GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST AND THEN EMBODY THAT AND TO SHOW THAT.
WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?
WELL, I THINK -- IT LOOKS LIKE CHURCHES THAT HOLD TO THEIR CONVICS AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND ARE ABLE TO DEAL WITH KINDNESS TOWARDS THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM AND WHO DON'T GET THEM, AND I THINK YOU SEE THAT IN -- IN COMMUNITIES ALL OVER, NOT JUST ALL OVER NORTH AMERICA BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH -- WITH CHRISTIANS WHO GENUINELY SEE THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM NOT AS PEOPLE TO BE -- TO BE ATTACKED OR IN SOME SORT OF WAR WITH BUT AS PEOPLE TO -- TO OFF AND TO SERVE OF AND WE CAN TALK HONESTLY ABOUT WHERE WE HAVE DISAGREEMENTS BUT DO SO TRYING TO PERSUADE EACH OTHER, NOT TRYING TO SHUT ONE ANOTHER DOWN.
RUSSELL MOORE, PASTOR RUSSELL MOORE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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