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♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> Translator: I CAN SAY THAT THE STATE OF ISRAEL WILL NOT LET THIS PASS IN SILENCE.
WE WILL NOT OVERLOOK THIS.
>> A VOW OF RETALIATION, AFTER A ROCKET ATTACK KILLED 12 CHILDREN IN THE ISRAELI OCCUPIED GOLAN HEIGHTS.
ISRAEL BLAMES HEZBOLLAH, AND LEBANON BRACES.
IS THE REGION ON THE BRINK?
I'LL ASK ISRAEL'S FORMER PRIME MINISTER NEFTALI BENNETT.
THEN -- >> WE HAVE SERIOUS CONCERNS THAT THE RESULT ANNOUNCED DOES NOT REFLECT THE WILL OR THE VOTES OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.
>> NICOLAS MADURO IS CLAIMING VICTORY IN VENEZUELA'S PRESIDENTIAL VOTE, IN A HIGHLY DISPUTED ELECTION.
WHAT NOW FOR THE STRUGGLING NATION?
>>> PLUS, IOWA'S SIX-WEEK ABORTION BAN TAKES EFFECT TODAY.
WE'LL LOOK AT THE IMPLICATIONS WITH ABORTION LAW EXPECT MARY ZEIGLER.
AND -- >> IT BOTHERS ME THAT J.D.
VANCE HAS SUGGESTED THAT WOMEN SHOULD REMAIN IN ABUSIVE MARRIAGES.
>> KENTUCKY STATE SENATOR CASSIE CHAMBERS ARMSTRONG TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY SHE BELIEVES HI HILLBILLY WOMEN WILL GET NO HELP FROM J.D.
VANCE.
♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
IT'S BEEN OVER NINE MONTHS SINCE THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th.
NINE MONTHS OF WAR IN GAZA.
NINE MONTHS OF PAIN FOR THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES.
AND NOW, MORE THAN EVER, IT'S CLEAR THAT CHILDREN ARE PAYING THE HIGHEST PRICE.
IN THE ISRAELI OCCUPIED GOLAN HEIGHTS, 12 CHILDREN WERE KILLED SATURDAY IN A ROCKET ATTACK THAT HIT A SOCCER FIELD WHILE THEY WERE PLAYING.
AT THE SAME TIME IN GAZA, CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN ISRAELI ATTACKS THAT LEFT AT LEAST 19 PEOPLE DEAD.
ISRAEL HAS BLAMED HEZBOLLAH FOR THE ROCKET ATTACK IN THE GOLAN HEIGHTS AND HAS VOWED THAT THE MILITANT GROUP WILL PAY A PRICE.
HEZBOLLAH HAS FIRMLY DENIED THAT IT WAS BEHIND THE STRIKE.
THE ROCKET HIT THE VILLAGE WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU VISITING THE SITE THIS AFTERNOON.
HE WAS MET WITH JEERS AMID PROTESTERS THERE AND PROTEST FROM RESIDENT.
ONE SIGN READS, DOWN TO THOSE WHO ARE KILLING KIDS.
WITH FEARS OF A FULL-BLOWN WAR IN THE REGION ONCE AGAIN AT DANGEROUS LEVELS, FOREIGN LEADERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO DE-ESCALATE TENSIONS.
SEVERAL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE CALLED FOR THEIR CITIZENS TO URGENTLY LEAVE LEBANON.
AND THAT'S WHERE WE FIND BEN WEDEMAN, WHO IS JOINING US FROM BEIRUT.
SO, BEN, JUST TO RECAP, 12 CHILDREN KILLED IN THE ATTACK, 44 EUROPES AFTER 30 PROJECTILES CROSSED INTO THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
AS WE NOTED, HEZBOLLAH HAS DENIED THE ATTACK.
ISRAEL SAYS IT IS HEZBOLLAH, IDENTIFIED THE ROCKET MADE BY IRAN AND PUBLICIZED THE NAME OF THE LOCAL HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STRIKE.
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE SAID THERE'S EVERY INDICATION THE ROCKET WAS FROM HEZBOLLAH.
A LOT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS.
WALK US THROUGH WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW.
>> WELL, RIGHT NOW, REALLY, THE REGION IS ON THE BRINK.
THE BRINK OF, PERHAPS, A REGIONAL WAR, IF THINGS GET OUT OF CONTROL.
NOW, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS SAID THAT ISRAEL'S RESPONSE WILL BE IN HIS WORDS SEVERE.
HEZBOLLAH HAS SAID THAT IT WILL MEET ESCALATION WITH ESCALATION.
NOW, THE HOPE IS THAT ISRAEL'S RESPONSE WILL BE LIMITED, LIMITED TO TARGETS RELATED TO HEZBOLLAH.
THE WORRY IS THAT, OF COURSE, IF IT GOES BEYOND THAT, YOU COULD GET ALL SORTS OF OTHER PLAYERS INVOLVED.
THE IRANIANS HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY WILL STAND BEHIND LEBANON, BEHIND HEZBOLLAH, IF THERE IS A MAJOR ISRAELI ATTACK.
AND THE WORRY IS THAT OTHER ALLIES OF IRAN, OTHER ALLIES OF HEZBOLLAH, IN SYRIA, IN IRAQ, IN YEMEN, WILL ALSO JOIN THE FRAY.
AND THEREFORE, THE SITUATION IS, AT THIS POINT, VERY WORRYING.
WE KNOW THAT, FOR INSTANCE, GERMANY AND ITALY HAVE TOLD THEIR NATIONALS TO LEAVE LEBANON AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE REITERATED LONG-STANDING ADVISORIES FOR PEOPLE TO LEAVE.
ALSO, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN THE FORM OF THE U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR KONS EWE LAR AFFAIRS, PUT OUT A MESSAGE ON X, OR WHAT WAS KNOWN AS TWITTER, TELLING AMERICANS IN LEBANON TO LEAVE BEFORE THE CRISIS BEGINS WERE THE WORDS SHE USED.
AND SHE SAID THAT THOSE AMERICANS WHO DECIDE TO STAY IN LEBANON, REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION, THEY SHOULD BE PREPARED TO SHELTER IN PLACE FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
OTHER AIRLINES, FOR INSTANCE, AIR FRANCE AND LEFT THAN IS A, ARE SUSPENDED FLIGHTS.
OTHER AIRLINES, AS WELL, NO LONGER FLYING TO LEBANON.
SO, THE SITUATION CERTAINLY, WE ARE REALLY ON THE BRINK OF WHAT COULD BE SOMETHING VERY, VERY SERIOUS, BIANNA.
>> YES.
AND THE VICTIMS OF THIS ATTACK ARE CHILDREN.
THEY ARE ALSO DRUZE, WHICH ARE PART OF A SMALL BUT SIGNIFICANT PORTION, NOT ONLY ISRAEL, BUT HAVE A COMMUNITY IN LEBANON AND SYRIA, AS WELL.
YOU SPOKE WITH THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT SOME OF THE IMPLICATIONS AND CONCERNS FOLLOWING THIS ATTACK.
TELL ME WHAT HE SAID TO YOU.
>> WELL, I SPOKE TO HIM SEVERAL TIMES, ACTUALLY.
TODAY, HE TOLD ME THAT HE HAD, THROUGH DIPLOMATIC CONTACTS, LEBANON HAD BEEN TOLD THAT THE ISRAELI RESPONSE WOULD BE IN HIS WORDS LIMITED.
LIMITED, THEIR INTERPRETATION OF THAT IS, LIMITED IN TERMS OF HEZBOLLAH TARGETS.
BEIRUT, THE AIRPORT WILL NOT BE STRUCK.
BUT BEYOND THAT, HE WAS VERY CONCERNED THAT LEBANON COULD BE DRAWN INTO A WAR THAT HAS DANGER OF GOING MUCH MORE BROAD, BASICALLY BECOMING A REGIONAL WAR.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.
>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION EVERYBODY HERE IN BEIRUT ASKS ME.
IS THERE GOING TO BE WAR?
>> WE DON'T WANT WAR.
WE DON'T WANT WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.
WE WANT PEACE.
WE ARE PEOPLE OF PEACE AND WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, AND WE'RE WAITING FOR GAZA TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, AND THEREFORE, AUTOMATICALLY, HERE.
WE DON'T THINK THIS IS HEZBOLLAH, BUT I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE A WAR AGAINST LEBANON IS A REGIONAL WAR.
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HEZBOLLAH AGAINST ISRAEL.
AND HEZBOLLAH'S NOT HAMAS, ALSO.
IT'S MORE THAN HAMAS.
>> AND BY THAT, OF COURSE, HE MEANS THAT HEZBOLLAH POSSESSES MILITARY CAPABILITIES FAR IN EXCESS OF THAT OF HAMAS.
WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SINCE OCTOBER IS THAT THEY HAVE USED WEAPONRY THAT NO ONE WAS EVEN AWARE THEY HAD.
THEY'VE BEEN VERY SKILLFUL AT KNOCKING OUT ISRAELI SURVEILLANCE EQUIPMENT ALONG THE BORDER.
THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOOT DOWN STATE OF THE ART ISRAELI DRONES.
WE'VE SEEN, FOR INSTANCE, MULTIPLE TIMES THEY'VE PUBLISHED DRONE VIDEO SHOT BY HEZBOLLAH DRONES OF VERY SENSITIVE ISRAELI MILITARY AND INFRASTRUCTURE POSITIONS.
SO, THEY ARE IN A POSITION, SHOULD THEY BECOME INVOLVED IN A FULL-SCALE WAR WITH ISRAEL, TO INFLICT SIGNIFICANT PAIN ON ISRAEL, AT THE SAME TIME THAT ISRAEL, OF COURSE, WILL INFLICT SIGNIFICANT PAIN ON LEBANON.
BIANNA?
>> AND WE ALL REMEMBER THAT SIGNIFICANT PAIN FROM BOTH SIDES IN 2006.
HASSAN NASRALLAH WAS SAID TO HAVE UNDERESTIMATED, PERHAPS, ISRAEL'S RESPONSE THEN, AND, OF COURSE, EVERYONE'S ON PINS AND NEEDLES HERE, CONCERNED THAT THINGS COULD QUICKLY ESCALATE NOW.
BEN WEDEMAN IN BEIRUT FOR US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> WELL, ISRAELI LEADERS ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ARE VOWING TO RETALIATE FORCEFULLY TO THIS ATTACK.
SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WILL THAT LOOK LIKE?
LET'S BRING IN FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND LEADER OF RIGHT WING PARTY, THE NEW RIGHT, NEFTALI BENNETT, FROM ISRAEL.
MR. PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE ABLE TO HEAR THE COMMENTS MADE TO BEN WEDEMAN FROM THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER.
IF YOU WERE, I'M CURIOUS YOUR RESPONSE?
>> WELL, FIRST, I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT TWO CORRECTIONS.
THE FIRST ONE IS, IT'S NOT ISRAEL THAT'S CLAIMING THAT HEZBOLLAH SHOT THIS ROCKET AND MURDERED THE 12 CHILDREN, THAT'S A FACT THAT'S BEEN CONFIRMED ALSO BY THE UNITED STATES IN AN OFFICIAL MEMORANDUM, CONFIRMING THAT THIS IS A HEZBOLLAH ROCKET MADE IN IRAN, USED BY HEZBOLLAH.
AND THEY, HEZBOLLAH, NASRALLAH, MURDERED 12 BOYS AND GIRLS, AND NOW, LIKE ANY COWARD, HE'S TRYING TO HIDE THAT AND DENY IT, BUT THAT'S A FACT.
SECONDLY, THE GOALEN GOLAN HEIG NO LONGER AN OCCUPIED TERRITORY.
THE UNITED STATES RECOGNIZES IT AS PART AND PARCEL OF ISRAEL, SO, IT'S AN INTEGRAL PART OF ISRAEL.
AS TO YOUR QUESTION, WHAT WE'VE HAD HERE IS A WAR THAT HAS NO PREMISE, NO BASIS FOR IT.
THIS IS NOT A TWO-SIDED WAR.
HEZBOLLAH BEGAN ATTACKING ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 8th, HAS SHOT HUNDREDS OF ROCKETS ON ISRAELI KIBBUTZ AND TOWNS.
KILLED DOZENS OF ISRAELIS.
AND NOW, A COUPLE DAYS AGO, MURDERED 12 CHILDREN, SO, WHEN ONE SAYS THE WORD ESCALATION, WE ARE ALREADY AT FULL-BLOWN ESCALATION, THAT HAS BEEN PRODUCED BY LEBANON.
>> IT IS CLEAR THAT SUCH A SEVERE ATTACK CANNOT PASS WITHOUT A HARSH RESPONSE FROM THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, BUT SENIOR ISRAELI DEFENSE OFFICIAL IS QUOTED AS SAYING ISRAEL WANTS TO HURT HEZBOLLAH, BUT DOES NOT WANT TO DRAG THE REGION INTO AN ALL-OUT WAR.
IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT SHOULD THAT RESPONSE THEN BE, IF THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS RE-ESTABLISHING DETERRENCE, BUT NOT A FULL-SCALE REGIONAL CONFLICT OR WAR?
>> WELL, I BEG TO DIFFER.
I THINK WE ARE ALREADY AT A FULL-SCALE REGIONAL WAR.
WHAT DO YOU CALL IT WHEN YEMEN SHOOTS ROCKETS AND KILLS AN ISRAELI IN TEL AVIV?
WHEN IRANIAN PROXIES KILL HUNDREDS OF ISRAELIS?
WHEN HEZBOLLAH IS SHOOTING HUNDREDS OF ROCKETS?
WHEN IRAQI MILITIAS, AND WHEN IRAN ITSELF SHOOTS HUNDREDS OF MISSILES FROM IRAN ONTO ISRAEL?
SO, WE'RE ALREADY FACING REGIONAL WAR.
THE KEY IS TO IDENTIFY THE SOURCE OF THE ENEMY, AND THE SOURCE OF THE ENEMY IS IRAN.
THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN IS AT THE BASIS OF ALL OF THIS, IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE HEAD OF THE OCTOPUS, AND I'VE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR A FEW YEARS THAT WE ULTIMATELY NEED TO TOPPLE THIS REGIME FOR OUR SAKE, FOR THE SAKE OF THE REGION, FOR THE SAKE OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.
I THINK NOW THAT'S CLEAR TO EVERYONE.
THEY ARE AT THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING.
>> DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE IN FAVOR OF A FULL-SCALE WAR AGAINST NOT JUS HIT HEZBOLLAH, WHEN I SAY WAR, OBVIOUSLY THE SCALE OF WHAT WE SAW IN 2006, NOT WHAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING IN THE NORTH SINCE OCTOBER 8th, BUT YOU SEEM TO BE TAKING IT ONE STEP FURTHER, SAYING ISRAEL SHOULD GO TO WAR WITH IRAN NOW.
>> I'M SAYING ISRAEL IS ALREADY AT WAR WITH IRAN.
IRAN HAS BEEN SHOOTING THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS THROUGH GAZA, THROUGH LEBANON, THROUGH IRAQ, FROM IRAN, FROM YEMEN ON ISRAEL.
BUT THEY ARE NOT PAYING ANY PRICE.
NOW, I'M NOT SUGGESTING A SPECIFIC ACTION, I'M NOT GOING TO DELINEATE PRECISELY WHAT WE NEED TO DO, BUT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE HEAD OF THE OCTOPUS OF TERROR IN THE WHOLE REGION, MOST OF THE TERROR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, ITS SOURCE IS THE ISLAMIC REPUBLICAN OF IRAN.
THOSE WHO HAVE A VERY CLEAR IDEOLOGY, IT'S INCOMPETENT AND CORRUPT REGIME.
IT WILL TOPPLE AT SOME POINT, BUT I THINK AMERICA AND ISRAEL AND THE WEST NEED TO ACCELERATE THAT, ESPECIALLY THE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, BUT NOT ONLY.
>> YOU SAID OVER THE WEEKEND ON CNN, QUOTE, WHAT WE SAW HAPPEN ON SATURDAY IS THE RESULT OF A FEEBLE, WEAK POLICY OF MANY WORDS AND SPEECHES, BUT NOT ENOUGH ACTION.
THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THIS AND DETER ENEMIES IS TO FIGHT BACK.
SO, IN A SENSE, ASIDE FROM HEZBOLLAH, ARE YOU ALSO POINTING THE FINGER OF BLAME AT THE CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?
>> WELL, IT'S NO SECRET.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL HAS LOST A LOT OF ITS DETERRENCE DUE TO POOR LEADERSHIP.
THAT'S -- I THINK THAT'S CLEAR TO EVERYONE.
WHEN SOMETHING IS NOT WORKING WELL, YOU ULTIMATELY LOOK FOR THE LEADERSHIP.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIX THAT, AS WELL.
BUT RIGHT NOW, WE STAND UNITED ON THE GOAL OF FIGHTING AND ULTIMATELY WEAKENING AND TOPPLING THE OCTOPUS OF TERROR, THE HEAD OF THE OCTOPUS, WHICH IS IRAN.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN HOURS OR DAYS.
BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BEGIN HAPPENING.
>> BUT YOU -- YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS SOMETHING ISRAEL CAN'T DO UNILATERALLY, AND I'M NOT SAYING AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND, BUT I MEAN, WITHOUT U.S. SUPPORT, WHETHER IT'S PROVIDING MORE AMMUNITIONS, AND IT COMES AT A TIME WHERE, AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN CONFLICT BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES, IN TERMS OF THE TIME FRAME THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN PROVIDING CERTAIN WEAPONS.
DO YOU THINK THE U.S.
RIGHT NOW, AS WE'RE APPROACHING AN ELECTION, HAS AN APPETITE FOR OPENING YET ANOTHER FRONT IN THE REGION RIGHT NOW?
>> I THINK THE WAY TO PREVENT A FULL-BLOWN WAR, LET'S CALL IT A KINETIC WAR WITH IRAN, BY USING THE SOFTER MEASURES, THE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS AND THE DIPLOMATIC SANCTIONS AND OTHER ELEMENTS, AND CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO FLOW INTO THIS APPARATUS OF TERROR.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO DO, CERTAINLY WITH THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, WITH WHICHEVER NEXT PRESIDENT IS ELECTED IN THE UNITED STATES.
BECAUSE IF WE DON'T DO IT, THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST WILL GO ALONG THE LINES OF RADICAL IRAN, AND THAT ULTIMATELY BE HIT ALL OF THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.
IF YOU DON'T CUT THE -- NIP THE TERROR IN THE BUD, YOU'RE GOING TO MEET IT ON THE STREETS OF NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON.
I WAS LIVING IN NEW YORK DURING 9/11, I REMEMBER THAT VERY DAY, I REMEMBER TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE RUNNING AWAY FROM THOSE TOWERS, BECAUSE WHEN YOU DON'T NIP TERROR AT ITS SOURCE, IT WILL COME AND HAUNT YOU.
>> MR. PRIME MINISTER, WITH ALL EYES ON THE NORTH NOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS, THE STATUS OF A HOSTAGE DEAL AND A CEASE-FIRE.
AS OF A FEW DAYS AGO, IT APPEARED THAT ONE WAS PERHAPS IMMINENT, NOW THERE ARE REAL CONCERNS ABOUT THE LIKELIHOOD THERE.
AND I'VE JUST BEEN LOOKING OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE EVER PUBLICLY STATED HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC DEAL.
DO YOU AGREE WITH IT?
IS IT SOMETHING THAT THE PRIME MINISTER SHOULD HAVE SIGNED OFF ON LONG AGO?
OR DO YOU SUPPORT HOW MANY VIEW HIS PROCESS OF DELAYING IT?
>> NO, I -- NEITHER.
WHAT I BELIEVE IS THAT WE'RE NOT REACHING A DEAL BECAUSE THE PRESSURE ON HAMAS IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH.
THE WAR IS BEING PROSECUTED AT A VERY LOW INTENSITY.
LET'S CALL IT 5%, 10% INTENSITY, AND YOU DON'T WIN WARS WHEN YOU'RE FIGHTING AT 5% TO 10% INTENSITY.
WE HAVE, LET'S SAY, A BOXING MATCH AND YOUR RIVAL JUST GOT HIT IN HIS HEAD, YOU HAVE TO GO BOX HIM AND HIT HIM UNTIL YOU GET THE KNOCKOUT.
BUT WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE KEEP ON TURNING IT ON AND OFF, ON AND OFF, AND THAT'S NOT HOW YOU ACHIEVE VICTORY.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SCRIPT SI.
AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE NOT GETTING A DEAL, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT APPLYING ENOUGH PRESSURE ON YAHYA SINWAR.
BUT I DO BELIEVE A GOOD DEAL IS ATTAINABLE, BY APPLYING THAT PRESSURE.
>> BUT THIS SPECIFIC DEAL, OR YOU THINK THEY SHOULD START FROM SCRATCH?
BECAUSE I KNOW YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH HOSTAGE FAMILIES.
I WOULD PERHAPS ARGUE EVEN MORE TIME THAN THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER HAS, AND YOU KNOW HOW THE MAJORITY OF THEM FEEL, AND THAT IS THAT THEY WANT THEIR LOVED ONES HOME NOW.
DO YOU THINK WHATEVER PLAN YOU'RE PROPOSING WOULD BRING THEM HOME ANY SOONER THAN THE ONE THAT'S ALREADY ON THE TABLE?
>> WELL, I THINK WHAT I WOULD DO IN THIS SORT OF SITUATION IS SIMPLIFY THINGS, FOR THE MILITARY, AND FOR THE WHOLE ISSUE.
I WOULD SAY TO HAMAS, THERE'S ONE DEAL, AND THE DEAL IS THAT YOU RAISE A WHITE FLAG, RELEASE ALL OF THE HOSTAGES AND SURRENDER, AND IN RETURN, WE WON'T KILL YOU, BUT RATHER, WE'LL PUT YOU ON A BOAT AND SHIP YOU OUT OF HERE LIKE WE DID TO THE PLO IN BEIRUT IN '82.
THAT IS WHAT I WOULD DO.
AND THEN, TURN TO THE MILITARY, TO THE IDF, SAY, YOU GO AHEAD, DON'T STOP UNTIL WE ACHIEVE THIS.
>> BUT YOU KNOW WHAT THE IDF -- YOU KNOW -- WE'RE JUST PRESSED FOR TIME, I'M JUST CURIOUS, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH FROM YOU ON THIS SPECIFIC ANGLE.
YOU KNOW WHAT THE IDF AND MILITARY BRASS HAVE BEEN SAYING, THEY THINK HAMAS HAS BEEN WEAKENED ENOUGH THAT A DEAL CAN BE ESTABLISHED, AT LEAST THE FIRST PHASE OF IT, AND THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY THAT THE PRIME MINISTER'S NOT SEIZING ON RIGHT NOW TO BRING HOME AT LEAST SOME OF THE HOSTAGES WHO, YOU KNOW, ARE SUFFERING, AS YOU KNOW.
>> LOOK, I'M NOT GOING TO CRITICIZE THE PRIME MINISTER FOR -- OR THE MILITARY FOR ANY DEAL, BECAUSE IT'S SO SENSITIVE AND THERE'S SO MANY DIMENSIONS IN SUCH A DEAL THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NO -- IT'S NOT A SMART THING TO STAND ON THE SIDELINES AND GIVE CRITICISM.
I'LL BACK WHATEVER THE GOVERNMENT DOES, ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT WE NEED TO PRESS MUCH HARDER IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE DEAL THAT IS, YOU KNOW, BEEN SORT OF RUNNING AWAY FROM US FOR THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS.
>> OKAY.
FORMER PRIME MINISTER NEFTALI BENNETT THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.
HOPE YOU CAN COME BACK AND JOIN US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> WELL, WE TURN TO VENEZUELA NOW, WHERE NICOLAS MADURO HAS BEEN DECLARED WINNER OF THE GOVERNMENT ELECTION.
RIVALS AND SEVERAL GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD IMMEDIATELY CHALLENGED THE RESULTS.
MADURO HAS LED VENEZUELA INTO A CRIPPLING ECONOMIC CRISIS WITH NO PLACE FOR POLITICAL OPPONENTS.
LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO THIS.
ALEXANDRA WINKLER IS NOW AT THE CENTER FOR STRATEGIC INTERNATIONAL STUDY AND JOINS US FROM WASHINGTON.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
I WISH WE COULD SAY THAT THIS WAS A SHOCK, IN TERMS OF THE RESULTS FROM THE GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW, AND MADURO ALREADY CLAIMING VICTORY, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL DAY WE'VE LIVED, THANKS FOR GIVING ME THIS VICTORY THAT THE PEOPLE SO DESERVE.
THE ONLY PROBLEM IN THAT, OF COURSE, IS THE OPPOSITION WAS LEADING IN ALL THE POLLS THAT HAD BEEN FOLLOWED GLOBALLY FOR 30%, IF NOT MORE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN, AND WHAT HAPPENS NOW?
>> YES.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT YESTERDAY IS THAT EDMUNDO GONZALEZ WON BY A LANDSLIDE AND MADURO DECIDED NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE WIN, NOR TO RESPECT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, VIOLATING ALL TYPES OF ELECTORAL NORMS.
GONZALEZ WON 70% OF THE VOTE.
MADURO WON 30% OF THE VOTE.
WHICH MEANS IT'S THE LARGEST MARGIN OF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS IN HISTORY OF MODERN VENEZUELA.
SO, YESTERDAY'S ELECTION WAS EPIC.
THERE WAS MASSIVE TURNOUT.
CALCULATIONS ARE AROUND 12 MILLION PEOPLE.
AND EDMUNDO WON ACROSS ALL STRATA, ALL SECTORS, ALL 23 STATES, AND EVEN THE CAPITAL CITY.
WE'RE EXCITED ABOUT THAT.
>> WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE ON THOSE FIGURES THAT YOU JUST LAID OUT?
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET ANYTHING OUT OF -- OUT OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
>> YES, I MEAN, YESTERDAY, THE RESULTS WERE REPORTED ON.
AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, IN ANY AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, WHERE, YOU KNOW, BRUTAL DICTATORSHIP, YOU HAVE TO HAVE ALTERNATIVE INFORMATION REPORTING MECHANISMS IN PLACE IN ORDER TO ET BE GET QUICK COUNTS AND RESULTS.
THAT WAS ESTABLISHED YESTERDAY.
AT LEAST FIVE OR SIX INDEPENDENT FIRMS WERE HOPING TO TRACK THOSE RESULTS, WERE HELPING TO TRACK THOSE RESULTS.
EDISON RESEARCH, ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR ONES.
YESTERDAY AROUND 4:30 P.M.
ALREADY PREDICTED THAT GONZALEZ WON WITH 64% OF THE VOTE.
ALL OF THOSE MECHANISMS WERE IN PLACE.
>> WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM PEOPLE IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY SAW AT THE POLLING STATIONS?
>> MASSIVE TURNOUT.
MASSIVE TURNOUT.
MASSIVE TURNOUT.
PEOPLE WERE EXCITED.
PEOPLE WERE ENTHUSIASTIC TO BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD AT THE BALLOT BOX.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS ELECTION WAS DIFFERENT, BECAUSE IT MEANS THE REUNIFICATION OF VENEZUELAN FAMILIES.
IT MEANS YOU ARE VOTING FOR CHANGE, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BRING YOUR BROTHERS, YOUR SISTERS, YOUR PARENTS, YOUR CHILDREN BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY.
SO, PEOPLE WERE EXCITED ABOUT THAT.
BUT TOWARDS THE END OF THE NIGHT, WHEN PEOPLE WERE CLOSING AT THE POLLING STATIONS, THINGS GOT A LITTLE BIT ROUGH.
THE REGIME STARTED TO BRING OUT IRREGULAR GROUPS TO CREATE TURMOIL, TO CREATE VIOLENCE.
THEY WEREN'T ALLOWING WITNESSES AND THEY WEREN'T ALLOWING MONITORS AND CITIZENS TO ACTUALLY MONITOR THE FINAL CLOSEOUT OF THE POLLING STATIONS.
ACCORDING TO DIFFERENT ARTICLES OF THE CONSTITUTION, EVEN ARTICLE 337, PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO SEE WHAT THAT POLLING STATION ENDED UP WITH ITS FINAL RESULT.
AND THE MADURO REGIME WAS ALREADY CREATING OBSTACLES TOWARDS THAT NATURE.
>> THE OPPOSITION HAS SAID THEY WILL SOON ANNOUNCE HOW THEY PLAN TO CHALLENGE THESE RESULTS.
LET'S HEAR FROM THE OPPOSITION CANDIDATE, EDMUNDO GONZALEZ AND HIS RESPONSE.
>> Translator: WHAT HAPPENED DURING TODAY'S POLLING DAY WAS A VIOLATION OF ALL THE RULES, TO THE POINT THAT THE MAJORITY OF ELECTORAL REGISTERS HAVE STILL NOT BEEN HANDED OVER.
OUR MESSAGE OF RECONCILIATION AND PEACEFUL CHANGE STILL STANDS.
WE ARE CONVINCED MOST VENEZUELANS ALSO WANT THIS.
OUR STRUGGLE CONTINUES, AND WE WON'T REST UNTIL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA IS RESPECTED.
>> HOW DO YOU EXPECT THE OPPOSITION TO RESPOND HERE?
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, WHILE THEY WANT THE VOICES TO BE HEARD, THEY ALSO DON'T WANT TO SEE SCENES THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST, EVEN IF THEY'RE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS ON THE STREETS, THEY CLEARLY DON'T WANT TO SEE PEOPLE INJURED OR KILLED.
>> YES, I MEAN, VENEZUELANS HAVE -- WENT OUT YESTERDAY TO VOTE PEACEFUL, AND THEY NOW WANT A PEACEFUL AND ORDERLY TRANSITION.
THAT'S WHAT THE TRANSITION IS WORKING TOWARDS.
RIGHT NOW, THE FOCUS IS ON GATHERING ALL THE DATA, GATHERING ALL THE EVIDENCE, AND GATHERING ALL THE INFORMATION THAT IS NEEDED IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT EDMUNDO GONZALEZ HAS WON WITH 70% OF THE VOTES.
THAT DATA EXISTS.
THERE'S EVIDENCE TO BACK IT.
AND NOW, WE'RE ALSO EXPECTING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO ALSO STEP IT UP.
VENEZUELANS YESTERDAY SAID THEY WANTED CHANGE.
A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS AND DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, ARGENTINA, PARAGUAY, CHILE, LATIN AMERICA, EUROPEAN UNION, SAID THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THE RESULTS OF THE NATIONAL ELECTORAL POWER.
SO, NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO SUPPORT VENEZUELANS IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'LL START A PEACEFUL TRANSITION VERY SOON.
>> YEAH, LEFT AND RIGHT-LEANING GOVERNMENTS IN LATIN AMERICA, WE SHOULD NOTE, SPOKE OUT IN OUTRAGE TO THESE QUOTE UNQUOTE RESULTS THAT WE SAW, NOTABLE THAT JAVIER MAILLET CALLED HIM A DICTATOR.
WHO CONGRATULATED MADURO, THE LEADERS OF CHINA AND RUSSIA.
IS THIS NOT A KNOCK ON THE UNITED STATES ITSELF, WHICH HAS AT LEAST DANGLED THE PROSPECT OF EASING SOME SANCTIONS IF THESE HAD BEEN FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, CLEARLY THAT WASN'T ENOUGH TO ENTICE MADURO, SO, WHAT MORE CAN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DO NOW, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT WE'RE ON THE PRECIPICE OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HERE OURSELVES?
>> YES.
SO, THE GOOD THING ABOUT THE VENEZUELAN FREEDOM AND THE SEARCH FOR VENEZUELAN FREEDOM IS, THIS IS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES.
EVEN THOUGH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN MORE OF A DIALOGUE NEGOTIATION APPROACH, WE'RE HOPING THEY HAVE ALL THEIR BACK CHANNELS IN PLACE WITH THE MADURO GOVERNMENT TO ACTUAL LLY ALLOW FOR A PEACEFUL AND ORDERLY TRANSITION.
THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AT THE MOMENT.
TO PRESSURE THE MADURO REGIME TO SHOW THEIR RESULTS AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY CREATE THE INCENTIVES IN ORDER FOR MADURO AND A LOT OF HIS CRONIES TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
WE'VE SEEN SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SAYING HE WAS DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE RESULTS.
WE SAW VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS, OBVIOUSLY, TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTIONS, AS WELL, BUT WE'RE ALSO EXPECTING THE ADMINISTRATION AND PRESIDENT BIDEN TO ALSO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE, AND TO SUPPORT EDMUNDO GONZALEZ, BECAUSE I THINK TODAY, THE NARRATIVE HAS TO BE TO RECOGNIZE HIM AND TO SUPPORT HIM IN ORDER FOR THE TRANSITION TO START AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
>> WE SHOULD NOTE THE CARTER CENTER IN THE U.S. AND THE U.N. ARE CALLING ON VENEZUELA, FOR THE COMMISSION TO PUBLICIZE THEIR RESULTS.
I'M SURE MOST PEOPLE AREN'T WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH THAT THEY WILL DO SO, BUT WHAT, IF ANYTHING, CAN BE DONE TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON JUST THAT?
>> YEAH, WE'LL HAVE TO SEE THEIR RESULTS.
I THINK YOU PROBABLY SAW OVER THE WEEKEND HOW DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL AND POLITICAL ACTORS AROUND THE WORLD, EX-PRESIDENTS FROM BOLIVIA, PANAMA, MEXICO, COLOMBIA, THEY WERE ALL TRYING TO TRAVEL TO VENEZUELA TO ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE ONNE ON OBSERVANC, THEY WER DEPORTED.
THEY DIDN'T ALLOW MRPLANES TO LT OFF.
I THINK MADURO WAS DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO SEE HE WAS GOING TO LOSE, AND THAT'S WHY HE EFFECTIVELY RIGGED THE ELECTIONS AT THE LAST HOUR.
>> ONE OF OUR GUESTS WE SPOKE WITH AHEAD OF THESE ELECTIONS SAYING THE CONSEQUENCE OF HAVING A RIGGED ELECTION IS THAT WE WOULD SEE EVEN MORE VENEZUELANS TRY TO FLEE THE COUNTRY, AND THAT WOULD ONLY EXACERBATE THE MIGRANT CRISIS THAT THE REGION IS FACING, AND THE UNITED S STATES, AS YOU KNOW.
IT IS ONE OF THE MOST PERTINENT ISSUES AND TOP ISSUES HERE FOR VOTERS GOING INTO THIS EX-LA.
TALK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN EXPECT TO SEE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS FOLLOWING THIS.
>> IF MADURO STAYS IN POWER, PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO FLEE.
AND WE'VE SEEN THIS TREND EVERY TIME THERE'S AN ELECTION OR A BIG, IMPORTANT POLITICAL ASPECT WITHIN THE COUNTRY.
AND MADURO STAYS IN POWER.
PEOPLE GET THEIR BAGS AND START TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
AND THAT WILL MEAN PROBABLY MUCH BIGGER INFLUX ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.
WE ALREADY HAVE 8 MILLION VENEZUELANS ACROSS THE WORLD.
THERE'S AN 8 MILLION POPULATION, WHICH, BY THE WAY, THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE.
OF THOSE 8 MILLION PEOPLE, 5 MILLION PEOPLE WOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE, BUT THE MADURO REGIME CREATED SO MANY OBSTACLES IN PLACE TO IMPEDE THAT, AS WELL.
SO, THOSE PEOPLE THAT ALREADY FLED, THEY VOTED WITH THEIR FEET.
THEY DID NOT WANT THOSE VOTES TO COME IN AT ANY TIME.
SO, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF MADURO STAYS IN POWER, MIGRATION WILL CONTINUE WITHOUT A DOUBT.
>> WE'LL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS STORY CLOSELY.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT ONE.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> WELL, BACK TO THE STATES.
TWO YEARS AFTER THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE VERSUS WADE, THE FALLOUT OVER ABORTION RIGHTS CONTINUES.
TODAY, A NEW LAW BANNING MOST ABORTIONS AFTER SIX WEEKS WENT INTO EFFECT IN IOWA, LIKELY PUSHING MANY TO SEEK OUT OF STATE CARE.
IT'S A TOP ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION.
DEMOCRATS ARE SEIZING THE MOMENT TO BLAME DONALD TRUMP'S SUPREME COURT APPOINTMENTS FOR DISMANTLING PROTECTIONS FOR WOMEN.
AND KAMALA HARRIS JUST PUT OUT THIS VIDEO.
>> HEY, EVERYBODY.
SO, TODAY, IOWA PUT IN PLACE A TRUMP ABORTION BAN, WHICH MAKES IOWA THE 22nd STATE IN OUR COUNTRY TO HAVE A TRUMP ABORTION BAN.
AND THIS BAN IS GOING TO TAKE EFFECT BEFORE MANY WOMEN EVEN KNOW THEY'RE PREGNANT.
AND WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT 1 IN 3 WOMEN OF REPRODUCTIVE AGE IN AMERICA LIVES IN A STATE WITH A TRUMP ABORTION BAN.
>> BUT TRUMP MAINTAINS THAT ABORTION LAW SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE STATES, AND NOW IOWA HAS MADE ITS DECISION CLEAR.
TO HELP MAKE SENSE OF THE IMPLICATIONS, I'M JOINED BY MARY ZIEGLER, A LEADING ABORTION LAW EXPERT.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
WE'VE HAD MANY CONVERSATIONS AS TO HOW CONSEQUENTIAL THESE LAWS ARE, AND THE IMPACT IT CAN HAVE NA NATIONALLY, GIVEN OTHER STATES FOLLOWING SUIT.
HERE WE HAVE IOWA AND ITS BAN AFTER SIX WEEKS, EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE, INCEST, AS LONG AS THEY'VE BEEN REPORTED, PLUS THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER ARE INCLUDED.
PUT THIS LAW INTO CONTEXT, RELATIVE TO THE OTHER STRICT ABORTION LAWS IN OTHER STATES.
>> THIS LAW IS KIND OF A PIECE OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN A LOT OF STATES.
SO, IN MOST STATES WITH BANS, THERE ARE EITHER PROHIBITIONS IN PLACE FROM FERTILIZATION, SO, THROUGHOUT PREGNANCY, OR SIX WEEKS, WHICH IS NOT SO DISSIMILAR.
IF YOU HAVE IRREGULAR PERIODS, YOU MAY NOT KNOW YOU'RE PREGNANT AT SIX WEEKS.
EVEN IF YOU DO, YOU THEN HAVE TO GET TOGETHER THE MONEY, TIME, AND EVEN MAKE A DECISION THAT MIGHT BE A DIFFICULT DECISION VERY QUICKLY, AND THEN FIND A CLINIC IN A STATE WHERE THERE ARE VERY FEW.
SO, FOR SOME PEOPLE IN IOWA, THIS WILL FEEL LIKE AN ABSOLUTE PROHIBITION.
SO, THIS IS AMONG THE MORE EXTREME MEASURES WE'RE SEEING, ALTHOUGH, IN THE 22 STATES THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS MENTIONED, WE'RE SEEING QUITE SIMILAR PROHIBITIONS ON THE BOOKS THROUGHOUT.
>> AND WE KNOW THAT ABORTION HAS BEEN A MAIN ISSUE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL SINCE OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE.
THIS WILL BE THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN IT IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
OBVIOUSLY, WE SAW THE IMPACT THAT IT HAD IN THE MIDTERMS TWO YEARS AGO.
BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FACT THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'RE ACTUALLY SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS LAW BEING OVERTURNED AND VOTERS REALLY HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THEIR PIECE ABOUT THIS ISSUE, IF IT'S AN IMPORTANT ONE FOR THEM?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT'S NEW ABOUT THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS THAT WHO IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE CAN MAKE AN UNPRECEDENTED DIFFERENCE TO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
SO, NOT JUST IN THE SENSE THAT THE NEXT PRESIDENT WILL NOMINATE JUDGES WHO COULD, FOR EXAMPLE, REVISIT THE DECISION TO REVERSE ROE V. WADE OR ENTRENCH IT, BUT ALSO BECAUSE CONSERVATIVES, AS PART OF PROJECT 2025, HAVE ARGUED THAT FEDERAL LAW MIGHT ALREADY PROHIBIT ABORTION, IN OTHER WORDS, THAT STATES THAT WANT TO PERMIT ABORTION MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO SO, REGARDLESS OF WHAT CONGRESS DOES, BECAUSE OF THE COMSTOCK ACT.
SO WE'RE AT A POINT, NOT ONLY WHERE VOTERS CAN REGISTER THAT THEY WERE UNHAPPY WITH WHAT HAPPENED WHEN ROE V. WADE WAS OVERTURNED, BUT WHERE VOTERS WILL ALSO HAVE A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE GOING TO STAY WITH THE STATUS QUO, WHICH IS A NATION DIVIDED, WE'RE GOING TO SEE ABORTION OPPONENTS PUSH EVEN FURTHER TO TRY TO GET SOMETHING AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, LIKELY THROUGH EXECUTIVE ACTION, RATHER THAN THROUGH CONGRESS.
>> YEAH.
AND WE HAVE BOTH CANDIDATES, FORMER, YOU KNOW, CANDIDATE BIDEN, CURRENT PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND NOW KAMALA HARRIS, SAYING THAT THEY WILL CODIFY ABORTION RIGHTS IF ELECTED NATIONWIDE.
JUST -- I'M CURIOUS THE LIKELIHOOD, IN YOUR VIEW, EVEN IF THEY DO WIN, OF THAT HAPPENING.
>> WELL, I THINK A GREAT FIRST STEP AND MAYBE A MORE REALISTIC FIRST STEP, GIVEN HOW CLOSE THIS ELECTION IS GOING TO BE AND HOW NARROW A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY WOULD BE POSSIBLE IF THERE IS ANY DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY POSSIBLE AT ALL, I THINK WE'D BE MORE LIKELY TO SEE GETTING RID OF BAD OLD ZOMBIE LAWS.
I THINK PASSING STRONG PROTECTIONS FOR ABORTION RIGHTS WILL BE HARD, GIVEN THAT CONGRESS WILL LIKELY BE VERY, VERY DIVIDED.
IF DEMOCRATS ARE ABLE TO GAIN MAJORITIES AT ALL.
AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS TO LAY OUT WHAT THE GOAL IS, LIKE, WHAT ARE WE ASPIRING TO, IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT OR AN ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTER?
IN OTHER WORDS, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO BE HOPEFUL ABOUT THE FUTURE, EVEN IF THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT FAR AWAY FROM THE STANDPOINT OF PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.
>> IT'S INTERESTING THAT DONALD TRUMP SEEMS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THIS SUBJECT.
ON THE ONE HAND, HE TAKES CREDIT AND BOASTS ABOUT PUTTING THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ON THE BENCH THAT ULTIMATELY OVERTURNED ROE V. WADE, BUT THEN HE SEEMS TO THINK OF THIS AS A CASE CLOSED, THE PERFECT SOLUTION IS JUST LEAVING IT UP TO THE STATES.
AS WE KNOW, THAT'S ONLY LED TO MORE CONFUSION, AND NOT ONLY THAT, THE PERSON HE'S PUT ON THE TICKET AS HIS RUNNING MATE WAS ADVOCATING FOR A NATIONAL BAN.
ANDS WITH KNOW A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ADVOCATES FOR THAT.
CASE IN POINT, LISTEN TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SPEAKING AT A CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN EVENT ON THIS ISSUE OVER THE WEEKEND.
>> LIKE RONALD REAGAN, I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN EXCEPTIONS FOR LIFE OF THE MOTHER, RAPE, AND AN INCEST, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
DON'T FORGET.
YOU HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO GO WITH YOUR HEART.
BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO WIN ELECTIONS.
>> HOW DO YOU READ HIS POSITION ON THIS, AND WHAT WE COULD SEE IN A SECOND TRUMP TERM?
>> WELL, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT SAID IS, YOU HAVE TO WIN ELECTIONS.
I THINK WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WOULD DO.
SO, ON THE ONE HAND, HE SAID HE THINKS THAT ABORTION SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE STATES.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE J.D.
VANCE SAYING THAT THERE EITHER NEEDS TO BE A NEW NATIONAL BAN, OR, AGAIN, THIS ZOMBIE LAW ALREADY IS A NATIONAL BAN.
WHEN ASKED HIMSELF, DONALD TRUMP'S KIND OF PUNTED, RIGHT?
SO, IN "TIME MAGAZINE" INTERVIEW, TRUMP WOULD NOT ANSWER IF HE WOULD VETO A NATIONAL BAN, IF HE WOULD ENFORCE THE COMSTOCK LAW AS A BAN.
HE'S NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION.
WE REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE WOULD GET.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT CERTAIN THINGS ARE POSSIBLE IN A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE BEFORE.
SO, I THINK VOTERS NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THEY MAY NOT HAVE ANY CERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WOULD MEAN, BUT THEY DO KNOW WHAT IT COULD MEAN, AND THAT WOULD BE PROHIBITIONS THAT WOULD HAVE EFFECTS NOT JUST IN STATES THAT ALREADY PROHIBIT ABORTION, BUT IN PLACES THAT HAVE PASSED BALLOT INITIATIVES IN STATES THAT ARE PROGRESSIVE AND STATES THAT ARE BATTLEGROUNDS, ALL OF THAT IS POSSIBLE.
WHETHER IT'S A GUARANTEE, WE HAVE NO IDEA, BECAUSE THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SENDING CONTRADICTORY MESSAGES.
>> IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT WE COULD SEE A LOT OF THIS ONCE AGAIN MIRED IN COURTROOMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ULTIMATELY.
>> YES.
100%.
>> ONCE AGAIN TO THE SUPREME COURT.
MARY ZIEGLER, AS ALWAYS, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.
THANK YOU.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> WELL, NOW, AS WE'VE HEARD, RESTRICTIVE ABORTION POLICIES ARE HURTING WOMEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY THOSE IN RURAL APPALACHIAN COMMUNITIES THAT ARE SUBJECT TO KENTUCKY'S STATEWIDE ABORTION BAN.
IN HER RECENT ATLANTIC PIECE, HILLBILLY WOMEN WILL GET NO HELP FROM J. DD.
VANCE, CASSIE CHAMBS ARMSTRONG SAYS THAT DESPITE CLAIMING APPALACHIAN VALUES, HIS STANCE ON WOMEN SHOWS HIS FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE THE CHALLENGES THEY ACTUALLY FACE.
AND THE STATE SENATOR JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO SHARE HOW RURAL WOMEN CAN BE BETTER SUPPORTED.
>> THANKS, BIANNA.
CASSIE CHAMBERS ARMSTRONG, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO, YOU WEAR A NUMBER OF HATS.
YOU ARE A LAWYER, YOU ARE A STATE SENATOR, YOU'RE AN AUTHOR, BUT I WANTED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT A PIECE YOU WROTE FOR THE ATLANTIC, TITLED HILLBILLY WOMEN WILL GET NO HELP FROM J.D.
VANCE.
YOU IDENTIFY AS A HILL WOMAN, AT LEAST MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY DO.
WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR STORY?
>> SURE.
IN MANY WAYS, THE ARC OF MY LIFE LOOKS SIMILAR TO J.D.
VANCE'S.
I WAS BORN TO EXTREME POVERTY IN EASTERN KENTUCKY.
I EVENTUALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO AND LEARN IVY LEAGUE DEGREES.
SO, THAT LOOKS LIKE J.D.
VANCE'S STORY.
BUT THE THINGS I TOOK AWAY FROM THE STORY HAVE VERY DIFFERENT THAN THINGS HE TOOK AWAY.
HE TOLD THIS BOOTSTRAPS NARRATIVE FOCUSED ON HIMSELF AND FOCUSED ON OVERCOMING ABOUT LA THAT.
WHEN I THINK ABOUT MY STORY, I THINK ABOUT THE WOMEN, I TRY TO CENTER THE WOMEN OF APPALACHIA THAT CREATED THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR ME.
MY FAMILY IS FROM KENTUCKY, ONE OF THE POOREST COUNTIES IN AMERICA BY HOUSEHOLD INCOME.
AND IT REALLY TOOK THREE GENERATIONS OF WOMEN IN MY FAMILY WORKING REALLY HARD TO CREATE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES FOR ME.
THAT DOESN'T FIT AS NICELY INTO A MOVIE OR INTO SORT OF THAT UPLIFTING NARRATIVE.
I DON'T THINK I REALLY KNEW THAT I HAD A STORY WORTH TELLING.
HONESTLY, UNTIL I READ "HILLBILLY ELEGY."
I WAS EXCITED TO READ THE BOOK.
IT WAS WRITTEN BASED ON A COUNTY ONE COUNTY OVER WHERE I GREW UP.
I HAD SOME WOMEN SAY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT HE'S SAYING ABOUT WOMEN LIKE THOSE THAT RAISED YOU, YOU SHOULD RESPOND.
AND SO, A COUPLE YEARS LATER, "HILL WOMEN" CAME OUT.
>> SO, TELL ME ABOUT, WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO THINK ABOUT APPALACHIA GATE ET RIGHT AND WHO THEY GET WRONG, AT LEAST FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE?
>> IT'S ALWAYS HARD FOR ME TO KNOW WHAT PARTS OF APPALACHIA TO TALK ABOUT TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD, BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAINLY VERY SEVERE PROBLEMS.
THERE'S A LOT OF POVERTY, THERE ARE PROBLEMS LIKE ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE, TRANSPORTATION CHALLENGES, IT IS A PLACE THAT STRUGGLES.
BUT I DON'T LIKE JUST STOPPING THERE, JUST SAYING, IT IS A PLACE THAT HAS CHALLENGES.
BECAUSE IT ALSO HAS SO MUCH POSSIBILITY AND POTENTIAL.
AND SO, I LIKE TO TELL THE STORIES, PRIMARILY OF WOMEN WHO HAVE ALWAYS HAD THIS QUIET LEADERSHIP ROLE IN APPALACHIA.
WOMEN LIKE MY GRANNY, WHO HAD AN ELEMENTARY EDUCATION, BUT PUSHED HER CHILDREN TO BE ABLE TO GET AN EDUCATION.
MY AUNT RUTH, WHO WAS THE HARDEST FARM WORKER AND THE BEST FARM WORKER IN THE COUNTY IN KENTUCKY, EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS A WOMAN, AND SHE SAVED UP HER WOMAN WORKING ON FARMS TO BE ABLE TO HELP HER LITTLE SISTER GO TO COLLEGE.
PEOPLE LIKE YULA, WHO STARTED A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE SHE DECIDED SOMEONE NEEDED TO DO IT, AND THAT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM GREW TO SERVE 200,000 PEOPLE IN THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS.
SO, THERE IS SO MUCH LEADERSHIP THERE, THERE'S SO MUCH POTENTIAL THERE.
WE DON'T NEED OUTSIDERS TO COME IN AND SAVE APPALACHIA.
WE NEED FOLKS TO GIVE US THE RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OURSELVES.
>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT J.D.
VANCE WAS GOING TO DO.
I MEAN, HE -- WHEN HE KIND OF FIRST BURST ON THE SCENE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT THAT IT WAS ALMOST LIKE HE WAS SPEAKING TO GIVE PEOPLE DIGNITY AND TO KIND OF ROUND OUT THE PICTURE OF APPALACHIA.
BUT WHAT I'M HEARING YOU SAY, YOU THINK HE'S KIND OF FLATTED IT OUT.
>> I'LL BE HONEST.
I ALWAYS HAD A PROBLEM WITH J.D.
VANCE SPEAKING FOR APPALACHIA.
I THOUGHT IT WAS A LITTLE TENUOUS TO TAKE THE CONNECTION THAT HE HAD TO EASTERN KENTUCKY AND CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR THE PEOPLE THERE, BUT I WAS A LITTLE HOPEFUL THAT MAYBE HE WOULD USE IT TO ELEVATE ISSUES AND THINGS I CARE ABOUT.
MAYBE HE WOULD USE IT TO SOLVE THE VERY REAL CHALLENGES IN EASTERN KENTUCKY.
WHENEVER HE RAN FOR U.S. SENATE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL OF THIS HILLBE P HILLBILLY RHETORIC.
HE MADE A LOT OF MONEY FROM SELLING THAT STORY, TO LAUNCHING A CAMPAIGN PAGE THAT THERE WAS NO MENTION OF APPALACHIA, EASTERN KENTUCKY, ANYTHING HILL HILLBILLY ON THAT PAGE.
HE JUST ABANDONED THAT IDENTITY WHEN IT NO LONGER SERVED HIM.
IT RUBBED ME A LONG WAY AND RUBBED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN EASTERN KENTUCKY THE WRONG WAY.
>> IT'S NOT JUST THE WAY HE TALKS ABOUT HIS UPBRINGING THAT KIND OF STICKS IN YOUR CRAW, YOU REALLY FEEL THAT THE POLICIES THAT HE IS NOW ESPOUSING ARE REALLY HARMFUL TO THE PEOPLE THAT HE SAYS THAT HE CARES ABOUT AND WANTS TO UPLIFT, SO, COULD YOU JUST BE MORE SPECIFIC?
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE POLICIES THAT HE NOW EMBRACES THAT YOU FEEL ARE SO DISTURBING?
>> AFTER I GRADUATED FROM LAW SCHOOL, I STARTED PRACTICING IN RURAL KENTUCKY, PROVIDING FREE LEGAL SERVICES TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVORS THAT LIVED THERE.
AND SO, BEING CONNECTED TO THAT COMMUNITY, I CAN SEE THE WAY THAT THE POLICIES THAT J.D.
VANCE CHAMPIONS REALLY ARE GOING TO IMPACT THAT COMMUNITY.
IT BOTHERS ME THAT J.D.
VANCE HAS SUGGESTED THAT WOMEN SHOULD REMAIN IN ABUSIVE MARRIAGES.
I'VE SEEN FIRST-HAND IN MY CLIENTS THE IMPACT THAT STAYING IN A VIOLENT MARRIAGE CAN HAVE.
AND THE WAY THAT IT HURTS PEOPLE, IT HURTS THEIR KIDS.
I KNOW THAT THERE IS SOME SURVIVOR OF VIOLENCE OUT THERE WHEN THEY HEAR J.D.
VANCE SAY, WELL, WHAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICAN CULTURE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE TOO QUICK TO LEAVE ABUSIVE AND VIOLENT MARRIAGES -- THERE'S SOMEONE WHO IS ABOUT TO LEAVE AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE WHO IS GOING TO SAY, WELL, MAYBE I SHOULD STAY A LITTLE BIT LONGER, MAYBE I SHOULD WAIT IT OUT.
>> LET ME JUST -- I THINK SOME PEOPLE MIGHT ARGUE THAT HE'S BEING, YOU KNOW, MISINTERPRETED, YOU KNOW, THE FULL QUOTE IS, THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT TRICKS THAT THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION PULLED ON THE AMERICAN POPULOUS, WHICH IS THE IDEA THAT, LIKE, WELL, OKAY, THESE MARRIAGES WERE FUNDAMENTALLY, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE MAYBE EVEN VIOLENT, BUT CERTAINLY THEY WERE UNHAPPY, AND SO, GETTING RID OF THEM AND MAKING IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO SHIFT SPOUSES LIKE THEY CHANGE THEIR UNDERWEAR, THAT'S GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPIER IN THE LONG-TERM.
AND MAYBE IT WORKED OUT FOR THE MOMS AND DADS, THOUGH I'M SKEPTICAL, BUT IT REALLY DIDN'T WORK OUT FOR THE KIDS OF THOSE MARRIAGES.
SO, YOU REALLY THINK THAT HE'S SAYING YOU SHOULD STAY IN AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE OR THE IDEA THAT HE EVEN SURFACES THIS IDEA KIND OF LEADS TO THAT CONCLUSION?
>> I THINK WHAT MATTERS IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPACTED, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THOSE ABUSIVE MARRIAGES HEAR IT AS A CRITIQUE OF THEM FOR TRYING TO LEAVE THOSE MARRIAGES.
AND I KNOW THAT FROM CONVERSATIONS THAT I'VE HAD WITH SURVIVORS OF VIOLENCE WHO, WHEN THEY HEAR THOSE WORDS, TO THEM, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE HURTING YOUR KIDS BY LEAVING A VIOLENT AND ABUSIVE MARRIAGE.
AND BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE REPRESENTING WOMEN THROUGHOUT RURAL KENTUCKY, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.
LEAVING AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE IS ONE OF THEEST BE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO KEEP YOURSELF SAFE AND KEEP YOURSELF SAFE.
>> ARE THERE CHALLENGES THAT IN RURAL ENVIRONMENTS THAT PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN CITIES DON'T REALLY KNOW ABOUT?
>> THERE ARE.
AND ILL SAW THIS FIRST-HAND WHEN I WAS PRACTICING AS A LEGAL AIDE ATTORNEY AND NOW I STUDY THESE CHALLENGES.
I LOOK AT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE PROTECTIVE ORDERS AND HOW MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IT IS PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS IT IS TO ACCESS COURT SYSTEMS TO GET RELIEF.
SO, IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO IS IN A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATION IN APPALACHIA, YOU ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE ABLE TO GET AN ATTORNEY.
YOU ARE LIKELY TO LIVE FURTHER AWAY FROM A LEGAL AIDE ORGANIZATION, WHERE YOU COULD GET THAT TYPE OF HELP.
YOU ARE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE ACCESS TO OTHER SORTS OF SUPPORTIVE SERVICES AND INFORMATION ABOUT THEM.
YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE YOUR CASE HEARD IN AN OPEN COURTROOM WITH EVERYONE ELSE IN TOWN SITTING THERE INSTEAD OF IN SORT OF A PRIVATE PROCEEDING WITH JUST YOU AND THE JUDGE.
AND FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, ALL OF THOSE THINGS IMPACT PEOPLE'S LIKELIHOOD OF BEING ABLE TO SEE THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS.
>> THE OTHER THING VANCE HAS CRITICIZED IS SUBSIDIZED DAY CARE.
HE SAYS THAT HE FEELS LIKE THIS IS KIND OF A SOFT TO ELITES, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE -- TO SORT OF SUPPORT THEIR LIFESTYLE CHOICES.
WHAT ABOUT THAT, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT?
>> YEAH, I -- I THINK IT'S REALLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE ISSUES THAT ARE IMPACTING WORKING FALL I WIL FAMILIES.
I WAS SWORN INTO ELECTED OFFICE WHEN MY YOUNGEST CHILD WAS 6 WEEKS OLD.
AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT DAY CARE POLICY IN PART BECAUSE WHEN I CALLED AND SAID, COULD I GET A DAY CARE SPOT, THEY SAID, SURE, THE WAITING LIST IS ONLY TWO YEARS.
AND I KNOW A LOT OF FAMILIES ARE IN THAT SITUATION.
I'M LUCKY THAT I LIVE IN A MORE URBAN AREA WHERE THERE ARE GOOD, HIGH QUALITY, AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE CENTERS.
A LOT OF OUR RURAL AREAS, THOSE JUST DON'T EXIST.
AND WHAT I'M PROUD OF IN KENTUCKY IS, WE'VE GOT A BI BIPARTISAN COALITION TO DO THIS WORK.
WE PASSED A LAW TO MAKE SURE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE MORE TOOLS TO BRING CHILD CARE CENTERS IN.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF WOMEN IN PARTICULAR, BUT ALSO FAMILIES, THE ECONOMIC IMPACT, OF NOT HAVING ACCESS TO QUALITY AND AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE, IT'S -- IT'S A HUGE HIT FOR THOSE FAMILIES ECONOMICALLY, IT'S A HUGE HIT FOR COMMUNITIES.
IT'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT INVESTMENTS WE CAN MAKE RIGHT NOW.
>> YOU ALSO HAVE DONE RESEARCH THAT SUGGESTS THAT PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS ARE 55% MORE LIKELY TO FACE EVICTION JUDGMENTS COMPARED TO THEIR URBAN COUNTERPARTS.
WHY IS THAT?
AND WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THAT THIS HAS ON WOMEN IN PARTICULAR?
>> YEAH.
SO, I REALLY TRY TO PUT NUMBERS TO THE THINGS THAT I SAW AS A LEGAL AIDE ATTORNEY.
THAT'S WHY I NOW LOOK INTO RURAL COURTS.
AND HONESTLY, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE RESEARCHING RURAL COURT SYSTEMS, BECAUSE THEY ARE FURTHER AWAY FROM ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS, THEY DON'T HAVE AS MANY NONPROFITS.
AND EVERY TIME I LOOK INTO IT, I FIND THAT THE NUMBERS SUPPORT MY EXPERIENCE THAT THERE ARE DISPARITIES.
SO, WITH EVICTION, IF WE HOLD ALL OVER THINGS EQUAL, PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS ARE 55% MORE LIKELY TO HAVE THEIR EVICTION CASE PROCEED TO JUDGMENT.
AND SO, WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHY, I HAVE SOME THEORIES, PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS ARE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE ATTORNEYS, WE HAVE A LOT OF LEGAL DESERTS.
THERE ARE FEWER NONPROFITS TO SORT OF SWOOP IN AND BE ABLE TO HELP SUPPORT PEOPLE.
COURT SYSTEMS HAVE FEWER NONPROFITS COMING IN TO SET UP THESE EARLY INTERVENTIONS.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT MEANS THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF FOLKS IN RURAL COMMUNITIES EXPERIENCING HOUSING INSTABILITY, AND WE DON'T SEE IT.
IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT ENOUGH.
AND SO, I THINK MY HOPE IS THAT PEOPLE SEE THESE NUMBERS AND REALIZE, THERE ARE PROBLEMS.
HOUSING INSTABILITY DOES EXIST IN RURAL AREAS, AND WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
>> J.D.
VANCE, AS A SENATOR, HAS ESPOUSED HIGHLY RESTRICTIVE ABORTION POLICIES, BUT I'M JUST INTERESTED TO ASK YOU HOW YOU THINK THESE RESTRICTIONS EFFECT RURAL WOMEN IN PARTICULAR.
>> SO, I NOW SERVE IN THE LEGISLATURE OF A STATE THAT HAS ONE OF THE MOST EXTREME ABORTION BANS.
AND I'VE SEEN THE IMPACT THAT THAT HAS ON RURAL COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY, WE KNOW WOMEN IN RURAL COMMUNITIES STRUGGLE TO ACCESS HEALTH CARE IN GENERAL, AND ABORTION CARE IS ANOTHER PIECE OF THAT.
IT IS HARDER FOR THEM TO TRAVEL OUT OF STATE, IF THEY HAVE A NONVIABLE PREGNANCY, IF THEY WISH TO RECEIVE ABORTION CARE.
THERE'S BEEN A KENTUCKY WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN LEADING NATIONALLY AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS, HADLEY DUVAL, SHE'S SHARED HER STORY BECOMING PREGNANT AFTER HER STEP-FATHER RAPED HER AT 12 YEARS OLD.
AND SHE'S SPOKEN ABOUT HAVING OPTIONS.
NOW, UNDER KENTUCKY LAW, SHE HAS NO OPTIONS.
AND J.D.
VANCE WANTS TO TAKE AWAY OPTIONS FROM WOMEN AND GIRLS ALL ACROSS AMERICA.
THAT'S -- THAT'S WRONG.
AND I THINK A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS AGREE THAT'S WRONG.
>> AND WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO HOW WE STARTED OUR CONVERSATION.
IN A WAY, YOU'VE BEEN IN DIALOGUE WITH J.D.
VANCE FOR AWHILE NOW.
LIKE, ONCE HIS STORY KIND OF BURST ONTO THE SCENE, IT KIND OF HELPED YOU REFLECT ON YOUR OWN STORY.
AND I'M JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK IT IS THAT YOU AND HE HAVE COME TO SUCH DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THOSE PROBLEMS.
>> I THINK IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT A LOT OF IT IS THE WAY THAT WE TALK ABOUT WHAT WE OFTEN CALL PROGRESS.
THE SORT OF POVERTY TO PROSPERITY STORY.
I TAKE ISSUE WITH THE IDEA THAT LEAVING A RURAL COMMUNITY OR LEAVING AN IMPOVERISHED COMMUNITY IS ALWAYS JUST PROGRESS.
I THINK YOU LOSE THINGS WHEN YOU LEAVE THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU'RE FROM.
BUT I THIS INK THAT VANCE TALKS ABOUT HIM.
AND IT'S FOCUSED ON THE IDEA THAT APPALACHIA IS A PLACE THAT YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME.
IT IS A PLACE THAT IN HIS VIEW IS HOPELESS, IS BROKEN, AND HE NEEDS IT TO BE THAT.
HE NEEDS IT TO BE THAT, BECAUSE HE WANTS US TO BE INVESTED IN HIM ESCAPING IT.
AND IN HIM OVERCOMING IT.
AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A REAL WILL REDUCTIONIST VIEW.
THE BOOT STRAPS NARRATIVE THAT WE TELL SO OFTEN IS VERY EASY, BUT IT DOESN'T GET AT THE COMPLEXITY.
>> HOW DO YOU ALSO ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF DONALD TRUMP'S STRONGEST SUPPORTERS IN RECENT YEARS IN HIS PUBLIC LIFE HAVE BEEN WHITE EVANGELICALS, PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS, WHY IS THAT?
>> SO, KENTUCKY'S A REALLY INTERESTING PLACE TO BE, BE BECAUSE -- UP UNTIL 2016, OUR STATE HOUSE WAS ACTUALLY UNDER DEMOCRATIC CONTROL.
OUR HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
AND THAT SURPRISES A LOT OF PEOPLE.
BUT KENTUCKY, LIKE A LOT OF COMMUNITIES IN APPALACHIA, IS DEEPLY ROOTED IN THE LABOR MOVEMENT, AND IN WORKERS RIGHTS, AND IN A LOT OF KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES.
IT'S INTERESTING, KENTUCKY HAS A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR.
AND APPALACHIA, WE STILL I ELECT A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC LOCAL OFFICIALS, AND SO, I STILL BELIEVE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN CONNECT IN APPALACHIA, AND DOES CONNECT IN APPALACHIA.
IT'S BASED A LOT ON THIS IDEA THAT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND T THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE FROM, THAT THEY UNDERSTAND YOUR PROBLEMS.
IT'S NOT SORT OF THIS MONOLITH WHERE EVERYBODY BELIEVES THE SAME THING, OR BELIEVES THE SAME THING FOR THE SAME REASONS.
IT'S ACTUALLY A REALLY COMPLICATED POLITICAL LANDSCAPE RIGHT NOW.
>> OKAY, BUT YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION.
WHY IS IT THAT SOME OF HIS STRONGEST SUPPORTERS ARE PEOPLE WHO SHARE SOME OF THE LIFE EXPERIENCES OF THE PEOPLE IN APPALACHIA?
>> I LOOK AT THE PEOPLE IN EASTERN KENTUCKY, AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR COMMUNITY IS MARGINALIZED AND IT'S NOT GETTING THE SORTS OF INVESTMENTS THAT IT NEEDS.
AND I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE DISTRUST OF OUTSIDERS, OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL, BECAUSE PEOPLE OF BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES FOR A LONG TIME HAVE COME AND PROMISED TO MAKE SHIP THINGS BETTER AND PEOPLE ARE STILL LIVING IN POVERTY AND IT FRUSTRATES A LOT OF PEOPLE.
SO, I THINK WHAT WAS APPEALING ABOUT DONALD TRUMP INITIALLY WAS THIS IDEA THAT HE WAS SAYING THAT HE WAS GOING TO BASICALLY REMAKE GOVERNMENT, THAT HE WAS GOING TO GET RID OF THE INSTITUTIONS AND FIGHT THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WERE REALLY POSING CHALLENGES FOR PEOPLE IN THEIR DAY-TO-DAY LIVES.
AND THAT WAS APPEALING, THIS IDEA THAT, WELL, THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT PEOPLE OF BOTH PARTIES HAVE SAID FOR A LONG TIME IS GOING TO HELP ME AND IT ISN'T, LET'S JUST GET RID OF IT AND START OVER.
SO, I THINK THAT WAS THE MESSAGE THAT INITIALLY BROKE THROUGH TO FOLKS.
>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO YOU?
I MEAN, TO YOUR -- YOUR RECOLLECTION OF APPALACHIA, THE PEOPLE YOU GREW UP WITH, THE WAY YOU SEE THEM?
I MEAN, "HILLBILLY ELEGY" WAS A BIG BEST SELLER, A MOVIE WAS MADE OUT OF IT BY RON HOWARD.
YOU'VE GOT A DIFFERENT STORY TO TELL.
AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO YOU.
>> I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST ABOUT ME.
I'VE BEEN REALLY HEARTENED TO SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE RAISING THEIR VOICES AND TELLING THEIR APPALACHIAN STORY, ABOUT WHAT THEIR JOURNEY IS LIKE, AND WHAT THEIR EXPERIENCE IS LIKE.
AND NONE OF US INDIVIDUALLY MIGHT HAVE THE PLATFORM THAT VANCE DOES, BUT I DO BELIEVE THE MORE THAT YOU PUT THOSE VOICES OUT THERE AND COMPLICATE PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF APPALACHIA AND PUSH BACK, THAT'S REALLY HOW CHANGE BEGINS TO HAPPEN.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS MOST PROUD OF IS WHEN "HILL WOMEN" LAUNCHED, I DID IT IN A CENTRAL KENTUCKY BOOKSTORE.
WASN'T REALLY EXPECTING, IT WAS A RAINY WEEKNIGHT, WASN'T REALLY EXPECTING A LOT OF PEOPLE TO BE THERE.
WHEN I SHOWED UP, THERE WAS A LINE OF WOMEN WAITING TO GET IN, AND I WAS TALKING TO THEM, AND A LOT OF THEM WERE WOMEN WHO HAD DRIVEN THERE FROM ABOUT LA THAT, WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS, BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO MEET ME AND WANTED TO TELL ME THAT THIS WAS A BOOK THAT REFLECTED MORE OF THEIR EXPERIENCE, AND THEY WERE PROUD TO READ THIS.
AND THAT MADE THEM FEEL PROUD OF WHERE THEY WERE FROM.
AND TO ME, THAT'S A WIN.
IF THERE IS ANYONE OUT THERE THAT FEELS LIKE THIS HAS MADE THEM FEEL PROUD TO BE AN APPALACHIAN, THAT IT'S PUSHING BACK ON A NARRATIVE THEY THOUGHT WAS HARMFUL, THAT'S WHY I WROTE IT.
>> CASSIE CHAMBERS ARMSTRONG, STATE SENATOR, AUTHOR OF "HILL WOMEN," THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>>> AND FINALLY, AS THE WORLD WATCHES, CHINA AND GREAT BRITAIN RACK UP DIVING MEDALS IN PARIS, BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA HOSTED A DIVING SPECTACLE OF ITS OWN.
THOUSANDS BRAVED THE HEAT TO CHEER DIVERS FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY AND ABROAD, AS THEY PLUNGED INTO THE RIVER BELOW IN THE HISTORIC CITY.
BUT THE 458-YEAR-OLD TRADITION WASN'T ALWAYS POSSIBLE.
THE OLD BRIDGE, AS IT IS KNOWN, WAS DESTROYED IN THE BOSNIAN WAR IN 1993.
YESTERDAY'S EVENT MARKED THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THIS RECONSTRUCTED BRIDGE, CELEBRATING ITS JOURNEY FROM WARTIME RUIN TO A UNESCO WORLD HERITAGE SITE, AND A RECONC RECONCILIATION.
LEAVING THE SHOW WITH A BIT OF HOPE AND CHEERS.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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