July 8, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> A DARK DAY IN UKRAINE.

DOZENS DEAD AND WOUNDED IN PUTIN'S MISSILE BARRAGE.

I'LL ASK FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER WESLEY CLARK WHAT MORE KYIV'S ALLIES COULD DO.

>>> THEN -- IN FRANCE, THE FIREWALL WORKED, PREVENTING A FAR-RIGHT WIN.

BUT WHERE DOES THE COUNTRY GO FROM HERE?

FORMER CABINET MEMBER CLEMENT BEAUNE JOINS ME.

>>> THEN -- >> I CONSIDER YOUR VOTE AS A HEAVY RESPONSIBILITY ON MY SHOULDER.

>> ANOTHER ELECTION SURPRISE IN IRAN.

A REFORMIST CANDIDATE WINS AMID A LOW TURNOUT.

A DISILLUSIONED PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN.

>>> PLUS -- >> I FELT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ARTISTS THINK AND I FELT I COULD MAYBE GET AHOLD ON THAT BY TRACING THE ACTUAL WORK.

>> THE WORK OF ART.

HOW SOMETHING COMES FROM NOTHING.

AWARD WINNING EDITOR ADAM MOSS GIVES US A WORLD TOUR INSIDE THE ARTIST'S MIND.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ COONEY FUND.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

>>> AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN THIS YEAR OF ELECTIONS, AT LEAST 70 COUNTRIES ARE HEADED TO THE POLLS, THE LAST FEW DAYS ALONE, VOTERS HAVE DELIVERED SOME SEISMIC CHANGES, AND SURPRISE RESULTS.

FRIDAY USHERRED IN A NEW CENTRIST LABOR GOVERNMENT AFTER 14 YEARS OF TORY RULE.

SATURDAY WAS CLEAR THAT THE ISLAMIC REGIME IN IRAN NOW HAD A LITTLE KNOWN REFORMIST AS PRESIDENT.

WHILE ON SUNDAY, FRENCH VOTERS BUCKED THE POLLS AND PROVED THEY ARE NOT YET WILLING TO USHER IN THE FAR RIGHT.

WE'LL BE DISCUSSING THESE TRENDS IN OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, AS ALL OF THIS WHILE THE U.S. ELECTION IS UPENDED BY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER JOE BIDEN REMAINS IN THE RACE.

HIS NEXT MAJOR PUBLIC TEST WILL BE HOSTING AND HOLDING A PRESS CONFERENCE AT THE 75th ANNIVERSARY OF NATO THIS WEEK IN WASHINGTON.

AND THAT SUMMIT WILL FOCUS MOSTLY ON THE STILL RAGING RUSSIAN WAR IN UKRAINE, AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE AID PIPELINE IF TRUMP WERE TO WIN ANOTHER TERM.

AS IF ON CUE, RUSSIA TODAY LAUNCHED ONE OF ITS HEAVIEST MISSILE BARRAGES YET AGAINST UKRAINE, KILLING AT LEAST 36 PEOPLE AND WOUNDING MORE THAN 100.

EVEN A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL THAT PERFORMS 7,000 SURGERIES ON SICK KIDS EVERY YEAR WAS HIT HARD.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO LOCAL OFFICIALS.

AND I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO THE FORMER SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER FOR EUROPE, WESLEY CLARK, ABOUT WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR UKRAINE AND FOR NATO IN ITS FACEOFF WITH THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT, VLADIMIR PUTIN.

GENERAL CLARK, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES SEEM LIKE THE RUSSIANS ARE STEPPING IT UP ON UKRAINE, THERE'S BEEN A MASSIVE BARRAGE OF MISSILES, A MASSIVE HIT ON A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, AND DOZENS DEAD AND WOUNDED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS THINKING NOW?

>> I THINK PUTIN THINKS HE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONSOLIDATE THE MOMENTUM THAT HE HAS BY PUNISHING THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

THIS IS HIS HORRIBLE RUSSIAN ATTITUDE THAT WE'RE GOING TO KILL YOU AND MURDER YOU UNTIL YOU LOVE US AND JOIN US.

IT'S AN IMPERIALIST ATTITUDE, GOING BACK 100, 200 YEARS.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S DELIVERED WITH MODERN ORDNANCE IN A BRUTAL WAY.

WE NEVER THOUGHT WE'D SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN EUROPE, CHRISTIANE, AND YET, HERE IT IS.

MORE THAN TWO YEARS INTO THE FIGHT, AND THE WEST HASN'T MUSTERED SUFFICIENT STRENGTH TO DRIVE PUTIN BACK.

>> WELL, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MOMENT AND HOW THEY SHOULD, BUT FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE TIMING, BECAUSE THE HEAD OF LITHUANIA HAS SAID, TWEETED, "PUTIN SENDS HIS GREETINGS TO THE NATO SUMMIT BY BOMBING A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL IN UKRAINE, AS IF ANY CLARIFICATION WAS NEDDED AS TO WHY UKRAINE MUST HAVE ALL POSSIBLE SUPPORT NOW AND REAL GUARANTEES FOR SECURITY IN THE FUTURE."

SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S FROM ONE OF THOSE BALTIC STATES, WHICH, I GUESS, GETS IT BETTER THAN ALL THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE FARTHER AWAY.

SO, TO HIS QUESTION, WHAT SHOULD NATO BE DOING NOW?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, NATO NEEDS TO PUT A LOT MORE AIR DEFENSE IN THERE.

THERE ARE MANY COUNTRIES IN NATO, AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO NAME THEM ALL THAT HAVE PATRIOT AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS THAT ARE SITTING ON THEM THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING FOR THE COUNTRY.

NATO'S LINE OF DEFENSE RUNS THROUGH UKRAINE.

NATO'S LINE OF DETERRENCE RUNS THROUGH UKRAINE.

AND SO, ALL AIR DEFENSE THAT THESE COUNTRIES HAVE THAT ARE NOT ON THE FRONT LINE SHOULD BE PUSHED FORWARD TO UKRAINE.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

SECOND THING IS, YOU HAVE TO CREATE AMBIGUITY.

YOU HAVE TO -- IN PUTIN'S MIND AS TO WHAT COMES NEXT.

YOU CAN'T SIMPLY SAY, HERE'S WHAT WE WON'T DO, WE WON'T DO THIS, WE WON'T DO THIS.

YOU'VE GOT TO START TALKING LIKE FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON HAS TALKED ABOUT CREATING AMBIGUITY.

SEND THOSE FRENCH AIRCRAFT IN, PUT SOME FRENCH TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN ODESA.

PUT ENGINEERS IN THERE TO HELP REBUILD THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

GET ENGAGED.

SHOW PUTIN, WE MEAN IT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT FUTURE SECURITY GUARANTEES?

WE'RE TALKING ON THE EVE OF THE NATO SUMMIT, 75 YEARS OF NATO.

WHAT CAN YOU UKRAINE EXPECT?

IT WON'T HAVE A LINE TO JOINING NATO, BUT WHAT ABOUT SECURITY GUARANTEES GOING FORWARD?

>> WELL, I THINK THE PLEDGE FOR EQUIPMENT IS GOOD, AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT OF THIS, BUT THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY SECURITY GUARANTEE, CHRISTIANE, UNLESS YOU'RE WILLING TO PUT U.S. AND NATO TROOPS INTO UKRAINE.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY A SECURITY GUARANTEE WOULD WORK, AND THAT, OF COURSE, WOULD CROSS THE SELF-IMPOSED STANDARDS THAT NATO HAS PUT UP FOR ITSELF OF NOT WANTING TO REALLY BE ENGAGED.

THEY WANT UKRAINE TO WIN, DON'T REALLY WANT TO GET ENGAGED AND FACE OFF WITH RUSSIA, HOPE WE CAN DISCOURAGE PUTIN INDIRECTLY.

WE'VE HAD 2 1/2 YEARS OF THAT, HOW WELL HAS IT WORKED?

NOT SO WELL.

AND YOU'RE DEALING WITH A COUNTRY IN RUSSIA THAT'S 24/7 MOBILIZED, IT IS BUILDING A GROUP OF ADVERSARIAL NATIONS AGAINST THE WEST.

IT -- IT'S NOT GOOD.

TIME IS WORKING ON -- FOR RUSSIA RIGHT NOW, RATHER THAN FOR THE WEST.

AND FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS, WE'VE MISUNDERSTOOD THE RUSSIAN STRATEGY AND THE RUSSIAN ABILITY TO ENDURE THE SANCTIONS AND -- AND THE PINPRICKS OF WEAPONS THAT COME IN.

WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE WITH WHAT WE'VE PROVIDED, AND IN THIS CONFLICT, THE F-16s HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISCOUNTED BY THE RUSSIANS, THEY FIGURED OUT WHAT TO DO TO WORK AGAINST THEM, OR, AT LEAST THEY THINK THEY HAVE.

JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH HIMARS, AND THEY'LL FIGURE OUT THE EIGHT TACK VERY QUICKLY, AS WELL.

FOR WAR, YOU HAVE TO GET THE INITIATIVE.

YOU HAVE TO BUILD YOUR MOMENTUM AND YOU HAVE TO SUSTAIN IT.

IN THIS CASE, WE'RE NOT FIGHTING THIS AS A WAR, WE'RE FIGHTING THIS AS ALOMATIC HOLDING ACTION, HOPING THAT SOMEHOW MR. PUTIN WILL SAY, GEE, I'VE MADE A MISTAKE, I REALLY WANT OUT OF THIS.

AND THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> GENERAL CLARK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THE PAIN OF UKRAINIANS IS FELT ALL OVER THE WORLD.

HERE IN LONDON, AT THE WIMBLEDON CHAMPIONSHIPS, THE UKRAINIAN TENNIS STAR ELINA SVITOLINA WORE A BLACK RIBBON AS SHE ADVANCED TO THE QUARTERFINALS.

SHE'S CONTINUOUSLY USED HER PLATFORM TO HIGHLIGHT THE PLIGHT OF HER FELLOW UKRAINIANS ON THE WORLD STAGE.

THROUGH TEARS AT THE END, SHE SAID, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT DAY FOR UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

PLAYING NOT JUST FOR HERSELF, BUT OF COURSE HER WHOLE COUNTRY.

SO, HOW WILL A POTENTIALLY HUNG PARLIAMENT IN FRANCE EFFECT THAT COUNTRY'S AID TO UKRAINE?

THESE WERE THE SCENES IN PARIS AFTER THE LEFT WING ALLIANCE STOPPED THE FAR RIGHT FROM TAKING POWER IN A STUNNING TURNAROUND.

MOST POLLSTERS HAD EXPECTED MARINE LE PEN'S NEXT RALLY TO WIN, BUT IN THE HIGHEST VOTING TURNOUT IN 27 YEARS, THE LEFT WING NEW POPULAR FRONT CAME FIRST.

PRESIDENT MACRON'S CENTRIST PARTY CAME SECOND, DOING BETTER THAN ANYONE HAD PREDICTED.

AND THE PARTY OF LE PEN AND HER YOUNG PROTEGE JORDAN BARDELLA CAME THIRD.

SO, DID MACRON'S ELECTION GAMBLE PAY OFF?

WHILE THE FAR RIGHT HAS BEEN KEPT AT BAY FOR NOW, THE RESULTS SHOW A MORE -- SHOW A MOVE TO THE EXTREMES, BOTH TO THE LEFT AND TO THE RIGHT, WITH THE CENTER LOSING MORE THAN 100 SEATS.

CLEMENT BEAUNE IS A FORMER CABINET MINISTER AND MEMBER OF MACRON'S PARTY, AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM PARIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AND I JUST WANTED TO GET INTO THE -- >> GOOD EVENING.

>> THE FRENCH POLITICS IN A MOMENT, BUT YOUR REACTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENED IN UKRAINE, WHAT GENERAL WESLEY CLARK SAID, AND GIVEN THESE ELECTIONS, WILL FRANCE CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO BE A STRONG SUPPORTER OF MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE?

>> THANK YOU.

YES, I THINK WE SHOULD BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT YESTERDAY'S ELECTIONS IS THAT, OF COURSE, WE WILL NEED TIME TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, AND A NEW PARLIAMENTARY MAJORITY, BUT THE MAIN INTERESTS AND THE MAIN VALUES OF FRANCE, INCLUDING AT THE EUROPEAN LEVEL AND THE GLOBAL LEVEL, REMAIN STABLE AND THE SAME.

SO, SUPPORT UKRAINE, WE WILL, FOR SURE, BUILDING OF THE EUROPEAN PROJECT WITH FRANCE BEING AT THE FOREFRONT WILL REMAIN.

A KEY ELEMENT OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY.

THESE CENTRAL VALUES, THESE CENTRAL PRINCIPLES WILL REMAIN, KEY PRINCIPLES OF THE FRENCH DIPLOMACY FOR SURE.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT MAKES THOSE DECISIONS, OR DO YOU THINK BOTH THE FAR RIGHT AND THE LEFT COALITION WILL AGREE TO THAT?

>> IT'S BOTH, FOR SURE.

FRENCH PRESIDENT IS, BY CONSTITUTION, IN OUR SYSTEM, THE LEADER OF THE ARMIES, THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AND ALSO THE HEAD OF THE DIPLOMACY.

THAT WILL REMAIN IN ANY CASE, BUT WHAT WE SAW AS ELECTION RESULTS YESTERDAY IS THAT THE CLEAR MAJORITY OF FRENCH PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH THEY DECIDED ON DIFFERENT PARTIES AND ELECTED DIFFERENT PARTIES, WANT TO REMAIN PRO EUROPEAN, WANT TO REMAIN PRO UKRAINE, WANT TO REMAIN STRONG ALLIES OF THE UK, OF THE U.S., OF OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS, MEMBERS OF NATO.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE PARTIES WHICH HAVE MAJORITY NUMBERS AND MAJORITY OF SEATS IN PARLIAMENT ALL TOGETHER, THIS ORIENTATION IN FAVOR OF EUROPE, IN FAVOR OF SUPPORT TO UKRAINE IS VERY CLEAR.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

WHAT WE HAVE TO BUILD IS A STABLE GOVERNMENT, REFLECTING THESE VALUES, BUT ALSO ACTING ON DOMESTIC ISSUES.

>> OKAY, SO, THAT IS THE OBVIOUS BIG QUESTION, BECAUSE WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THIS, A HUNG PARLIAMENT?

I MEAN, HOW DOES IT WORK?

AS YOU SAID, THE MAJORITY, IF YOU ADD THE MACRONESE AND THE FAR LEFT HAVE VOTED AGAINST THE FAR RIGHT, BUT HOW DOES IT WORK?

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THEM HAVE GOT A LARGE NUMBER OF SEATS.

HOW -- HOW DO YOU SEE THE COALITIONS BEING BUILT?

>> WELL, THE FIRST NEWS AND MAYBE SURPRISE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THAT THE FAR RIGHT PARTY, THE NATIONAL RALLY OF MARINE LE PEN AND JORDAN BARDELLA HAS NOT COME FIRST, HAS NOTHING LIKE A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT.

THIS IS VERY GOOD NEWS, BECAUSE IT WAS NOT GUARANTEED BEFORE THE VOTE ON SUNDAY, SO, THIS IS THE FIRST INFORMATION, I WOULD SAY.

SECOND IS THAT WE HAVE, INDEED, A PARLIAMENT WHICH IS MORE FRAGMENTED THAN EVER BEFORE.

IF WE WERE ANOTHER EU COUNTRY, IT WOULD BE QUITE NORMAL, BUT FOR THE FRENCH PARLIAMENT AND FRENCH POLITICS, IT'S NEW, AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT.

IT WILL PROBABLY ASK US A FEW DAYS, MAYBE WEEKS TO DEAL WITH THIS, AND TO FIND A STABLE GOVERNMENT, MAYBE A COALITION.

AT THIS VERY MOMENT, I CANNOT SAY EXACTLY WHAT WILL COME OUT.

WE KNOW THAT THE ALLIANCE OF LEFT WING PARTIES HAS COME FIRST, BUT THE CENTRIST BLOC OF MACRON HAS COME SECOND AND VERY CLOSE.

AND THERE'S NO MAJORITY WITHOUT COOPERATION BETWEEN THIS BLOC.

SO, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO.

BUT THE CORE PRINCIPLES, AS I SAID, RELATING TO UKRAINE, TO EU FOR INSTANCE, REMAIN.

NOW WE HAVE TO FIND OUT, AS GERMANY WOULD DO, SPAIN, ITALY, AS A NORMAL PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY, IF I CAN SAY, WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY OUT OF THIS APPARENT DEADLOCK, BUT I'M CONFIDENT WE WILL FIND OUT BY PROBABLY THE END OF JULY.

>> END OF JULY.

WELL, THAT'S -- THAT'S MORE OPTIMISTIC THAN SOME HAVE GIVEN.

SO, YOU -- YOU ARE A MEMBER OF MACRON'S PARTY, YOU DID LOSE YOUR SEAT IN THE FIRST ROUND, AND THEN THERE WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, STRATEGIC VOTING THAT WAS -- THAT WAS ENABLED, LIKE A FIREWALL.

BUT I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, SO, DO YOU BELIEVE MACRON'S GAMBLE PAID OFF?

>> WELL, IF THE IDEA WAS TO SHOW AND TO DEMONSTRATE PUBLICLY AND ALSO TO FRENCH VOTERS THE WEAKNESSES OF NATIONAL RALLY, OF THE FAR RIGHT, WE SAW DURING THE CAMPAIGN THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO DEFEND THE PLATFORM.

THAT A LOT OF THE CANDIDATES REFUSED TO DEBATE ON TV, TO DEBATE PUBLICLY, TO PREVENT THEIR PLATFORM.

THAT A LOT OF THEM WERE ANTI-SEMITIC, WERE HOMOPHOBIC, WERE RACIST.

THIS IS A DEMONSTRATION THAT I THINK WAS USEFUL.

I HAVE TO SAY, BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T FORGET, THAT THE NATIONAL RALLY IS A FAR RIGHT PARTY, HAS GAINED A LOT OF SEATS STILL.

IT'S NOT A MAJORITY, IT'S NOT CLOSE TO A MAJORITY, BUT THEY HAVE GAINED SEATS, AND IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THE ANSWER OF THE FRENCH PEOPLE ABOUT PUBLIC SERVICES, ABOUT SOME THINGS THAT DIDN'T WORK IN THE LAST YEARS IN OUR SYSTEM.

REQUEST FOR MORE SECURITY.

SO, WE HAVE TO -- TO LISTEN TO THAT, TOO, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE THAT THE NATIONAL RALLY REMAINS, IS NOW THE FIRST PARTY IN PARLIAMENT, THE BIGGEST GROUP IN PARLIAMENT.

NO MAJORITY, BUT THIS SIGNAL, THIS WAKEUP CALL THAT WE SHOULD ADHERE TO.

NOW, THE OTHER PARTIES, WHICH IS UNUSUAL IN OUR SYSTEM, BUT WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY OUT OF THIS, HAVE TO COOPERATE.

IT'S A BIT SILLY TO SAY THAT EVERYONE HAS WON.

I HEARD LEFT WING PARTIES SAYING WE NEED TO GOVERN, BECAUSE WE HAVE WON.

THEY HAVE NOTHING CLOSE TO MAJORITY THEMSELVES.

AND OUR CENTRIST BLOC HAS NONE, EITHER.

SO, WE HAVE TO COOPERATE AND TAKE A FEW DAYS AND WEEKS, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW LONG, TO SET UP THE COALITION.

>> MARINE LE PEN, AS YOU ARE CORRECT, NOT ONLY DOES HER PARTY HAVE A MASSIVE NUMBERSEATS THAT SHE NEVER HAD BEFORE, THEY ALSO GOT THE HIGHEST POPULAR VOTE, EVEN THOUGH THE LOWEST RELATIVELY OF THE SEATS IN PARLIAMENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, SHE HAS SAID, LISTEN, I'VE BEEN AT THIS GAME LONG ENOUGH, IT'S -- OUR VICTORY IS JUST BEING DELAYED.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN DEFEATED.

SO, SHE IS STILL BELIEVING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE TO WIN.

AND OBVIOUSLY SHE'S GOT HER EYE ON 2027 AND THE PRESIDENTIAL.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THERE ARE EQUALLY NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FAR LEFT, SO, WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

BECAUSE THE FURTHEST LEFT, WHOSE HEAD IS, YOU KNO -- PEOPLE ARE NOT AS -- NOT THAT HAPPY WITH HIM, AS WELL, AND HE'S JUST COME OUT WITH A, YOU KNOW, A PROGRAM WHERE HE SAYS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO REDO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF MACRON'S ECONOMIC POLICIES, LIKE -- CHANGE AGAIN THE RETIREMENT AGE, HAVE A WEALTH TAX, YOU KNOW, POTENTIALLY BALLOON THE DEBT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE -- TO THE FRENCH ECONOMY?

>> WELL, I WANT TO BE REASSURING.

YOU'RE RIGHT, THOUGH, THREATS OF THE FAR RIGHT IN THE MONTHS OR YEARS TO COME, IN THE NEXT ELECTIONS, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WILL BE IN 2027, HAS NO DISAPPEARED.

SO, WE SHOULD BE VERY AWARE OF THIS.

THEY HAVE A BIG GROUP IN PARLIAMENT, BIGGER GROUP THAN EVER.

AND THIS IS A LESSON.

WE HAVE TO FIND RESPONSES ON THE SOCIAL ISSUES, THE WAY WE DO THE TRANSITION, TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN FRANCE AND IN MANY WESTERN COUNTRIES WORRIED ABOUT THESE TRANSITIONS AND TRANSFORMATIONS OF OUR MODEL.

THE LEFT ALLIANCE, I WANT TO BE CLEAR, THERE'S NO WAY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE MEMBERS, THAT HE COULD BE THE LEADER OF THE GOVERNMENT OR THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE MESSAGE OR THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION YESTERDAY.

THE PROGRAM, THE PLATFORM OF THIS LEFT WING OR FAR LEFT ALLIANCE HAS TO BE DEALT WITH -- DISCUSSED, IF I MAY SAY, WITH ALL THE PARTIES.

AS I SAID, THEY HAVE NO MAJORITY, NOT CLOSE TO A MAJORITY.

SO, THEY CAN REPEAT TODAY THAT THEY WILL DELIVER THE WHOLE PROGRAM OR MANIFESTO, IT WILL NOT BE THE CASE.

>> THERE'S NO MAJORITY FOR THAT, SO, I WANT TO BE CLEAR ON THAT, ESPECIALLY FOR THE MOST FRIGHTENING ELEMENTS OF THIS MANIFESTO.

IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

YET, THEY HAVE THE BIGGEST NUMBERS IN PARLIAMENT, EVEN IF NOT THE MAJORITY, SO, THE DISCUSSION HAS TO START.

SOME ELEMENTS OF THIS PROGRAM MAY WELL APPEAR IN THE GOVERNMENT OF FRANCE IN THE NEXT WEEKS, BUT NOT THE MOST DIVISIVE ELEMENTS, THAT'S FOR SURE.

>> AND CLEMENT BEAUNE, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE NATIONAL RALLY, AND I DID ACTUALLY ASK MARINE LE PEN ABOUT IT, AND SHE INSISTED THAT, OH, WE WERE OVERWHELMED AND WE HAD TO CHOOSE 1,000 PEOPLE, AND WE WILL, YOU KNOW, PUT PEOPLE THROUGH A PROCESS AND TAKE ACTION IF NECESSARY.

BUT ALSO ON THE VERY FAR RIGHT THERE HAS BEEN ACCUSATIONS -- IN THE FAR LEFT -- ACCUSATIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM, TO THE POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME, YOU KNOW, FRENCH JEWS SAID, OH, MY GOODNESS, WE'RE FACED WITH HAVING TO CHOOSE BETWEEN A FAR LEFT AND A FAR RIGHT, AND WE ARE, YOU KNOW, IN A TERRIBLE POSITION.

FIRST, ON THE ANTI-SEMITISM ISSUE, FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST JEWISH AND THE BIGGEST MUSLIM POPULATIONS IN EUROPE.

AND OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF THE MUSLIM POPULATION ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FAR RIGHT, AS WELL.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO BE ADDRESSED?

>> LET'S BE CLEAR, BOTH IN FRANCE, THE FAR RIGHT AND THE FAR LEFT PARTIES HAVE DANGEROUS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS AM BIG BYTY WITH ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I COME FROM CENTER LEFT, AND THE REASON WHY I FOUGHT VERY HARD IS BECAUSE PART OF THIS IS THE PARTY, WHICH IS VERY, VERY DANGEROUS WITH THE ANTI-SEMITISM.

THEY PLAY WITH THAT, IF I MAY SAY, AND THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE IN OUR SYSTEM.

SO, I WAS VERY CLEAR AND THE GOVERNMENT WAS VERY CLEAR ON THAT.

THE THREAT IS STILL HERE, BOTH FROM THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT.

AND AS YOU KNOW, ANTI-SEMITISM ACTS AND INSULTS OR WORDS HAVE SURGED SINCE OCTOBER 7th, UNFORTUNATELY.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY TOUGH ON THIS.

AND THIS WILL BE PART ALSO OF THE ROAD MAP OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT.

PRESIDENT MACRON WILL BE VERY CLEAR ON THAT.

AND WE WILL NEVER, NEVER STOP THE FIGHT AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM.

BUT THIS IS A THREAT THAT HAS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, HE SAID IT WAS JUST A FEW PROBLEMS, A FEW ISSUES IN FRENCH SOCIETY, IT IS NOT.

AND I KNOW THE JEWISH COMMUNITY VERY WELL, IT'S A BIG PART OF MY CONSTITUENCY, AND I KNOW THAT THEY ARE AFRAID OF HIM.

RIGHTLY SO.

SO, THAT'S WHY ALSO THE CENTRIST PEOPLE, THE MODERATE PEOPLE, HAVE TO FIGHT BOTH EXTREMES IN THE MONTHS TO COME, STILL AFTER THIS ELECTIONS.

>> AND EQUALLY, MUSLIMS AND SOME JEWS ARE AFRAID OF THE FAR RIGHT, BECAUSE OF ITS HISTORY.

AND WHEN I TALKED TO MARINE LE PEN JUST BEFORE -- I INTERVIEWED HER IN PARIS ON THURSDAY, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SAID FAR RIGHT, SHE GOT VERY ANGRY.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID TO ME.

>> Translator: I STRONGLY DISPUTE THE TERM FAR RIGHT, WHICH IN YOUR COUNTRY REFERRING TO SMALL GROUPS THAT ARE EXTREMELY RADICAL AND VIOLENT.

IF YOU LIKE -- >> YOU DON'T THINK YOU'RE FAR RIGHT?

>> Translator: THE EQUIVALENT OF WHAT WE ARE IN THE UNITED STATES IS BETWEEN THE CENTER RIGHT AND THE CENTER LEFT, WITH REGARDS TO IDEAS.

SO, I THINK -- >> YOU'RE KIDDING ME, RIGHT?

>> Translator: YES.

YES, I'M TELLING YOU VERY HONESTLY.

I THINK THIS USE OF THE TERM FAR RIGHT CARRIES A STIGMA, AND IT'S VERY PEJORATIVE.

IT DOES NOT CORRESPOND TO WHAT WE ARE AND NOT AT ALL WHAT THE FAR RIGHT IS IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, CLEMENT BEAUNE, I WONDER IF YOU MAKE OF HER ANALYSIS.

AND, OF COURSE, ACCORDING TO POLITICO, HER PARTY IN THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS IS ABOUT TO JOIN, APPARENTLY, THE HUNGARIAN PRIME MINISTER, ORBAN'S FAR RIGHT GROUP IN PARLIAMENT.

DO YOU BUY THAT, THAT THEY ARE BETWEEN CENTER RIGHT AND CENTER LEFT, THE NEW VERSION OF WHAT USED TO BE THE NATIONAL FRONT?

>> NO.

IF THERE WAS THIS KIND OF FIREWALL AGAINST THIS FAR RIGHT PARTY, THIS NATIONAL RALLY, THAT'S BECAUSE THE FRENCH PEOPLE WERE AWARE THAT THEY ARE A THREAT AND THAT THEY REMAIN A FAR RIGHT PARTY WITH ALL THE HISTORY WE KNOW ABOUT RACISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM.

WE SAW DURING THIS CAMPAIGN IN FRANCE THAT NEARLY A THIRD OF THE CANDIDATES COMING FROM NATIONAL RALLY WERE PUBLICLY SEEN AS HAVING WORDS WHICH WERE ANTI-SEMITIC, RACIST, OR HOMOPHOBIC.

THIS IS A TRUTH.

THEY CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT.

THIS IS THE TRUTH.

IT WAS SHOWN DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

I THINK AT THE EU LEVEL, IT'S VERY INTERESTING, BECAUSE DURING THE CAMPAIGN, THE LEADER OF THIS PARTY SAID HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE IN EUROPE, THE COMMENTS ABOUT ABORTION, ABOUT HOMOPHOBIA, AND NOW TO JOIN WITH MR. ORBAN FROM HUNGARY, THIS NEW GROUP AT THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT LEVEL, WHICH IS CLEARLY AN ALLIANCE BETWEEN PEOPLE FROM THE FAR RIGHT.

MR. ORBAN, PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY, HAS FOUGHT STRONGLY, THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, HAS BEEN VERY TOUGH ON JUSTICE, INDEPENDENCE OF THE PRESS.

THIS IS A FAR RIGHT AND DANGEROUS AGENDA THAT THEY ARE JOINING AT THE EU LEVEL.

WE NEEDED A DEMONSTRATION.

IT IS ONE MORE DEMONSTRATION THAT THEY REMAIN IN THIS HISTORY OF THE EUROPEAN AND FRENCH FAR RIGHT.

>> AND FINALLY ON PRESIDENT MACRON, MANY ECONOMISTS, YOU KNOW, NEUTRAL ECONOMISTS SAY THAT HE'S ACTUALLY RUN A FAIRLY GOOD ECONOMY, THAT, YOU KNOW, INFLATION IS FALLING, EMPLOYMENT IS UP, HE'S ATTRACTED A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT.

BUT THERE IS A BALLOONING DEBT.

IS HE GOING TO BE A LAME DUCK?

AND WHY IS HE SO LOATHED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IN FRONT, IT'S MAYBE NOT LIKE IN THE U.S. FOR INSTANCE, OR IN OTHER WESTERN DEMOCRATS, IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE ECONOMY.

THE ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS ARE BE PROUD ABOUT THAT.

WE HAVE DECREASED STRONGLY THE LEVEL OF UNEMPLOYMENT.

WE HAVE INCREASED THE LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT, WE HAVE CREATED 2 MILLION JOBS.

SO, THIS IS A VERY STRONG ACHIEVEMENT.

BUT SOME PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE PUBLIC SERVICES SHOULD WORK BETTER, THAT OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM NEEDS MORE INVESTMENT, OUR HEALTH SYSTEM THE SAME.

SO, THIS IS THE RESPONSE THAT WE SHOULD ALSO BRING WITH A NEW PARLIAMENT, A NEW GOVERNMENT, FOR SURE.

BUT WE SHOULD NOT CHANGE AND WE WILL NOT CHANGE ENTIRELY 100%, NO U-TURN IN OUR ECONOMIC POLICY, BECAUSE IT HAS PROVEN EFFECTIVE.

IT'S CREATED JOBS FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

WE SHOULD NOT LOSE THAT.

SO, I WILL FIGHT, AS A POLITICIAN NOW, TO KEEP THIS KEY ELEMENT TOGETHER IN THE YEARS TO COME.

WE NEED THAT.

>> ALL RIGHT, CLEMENT BEAUNE, THANK YOU SO MUCH -- >> AND I KNOW THE PRESIDENT ALREADY VERY TOUGH ON THAT, TOO.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO IRAN, WHERE OVER THE WEEKEND, A REFORMIST CANDIDATE BEAT HIS HARD LINE CONSERVATIVE RIVAL TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

MASSOUD ME SESH CAN VOWED HE WOULD END IRAN'S INTERNATIONAL ISOLATION.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING FOR THE FIRST TIME PUBLICLY FOLLOWING HIS VICTORY.

>> Translator: I CONSIDER YOUR VOTE AS A HEAVY RESPONSIBILITY ON MY SHOULDER.

AND I PLEDGE TO CONTINUE TO BE A LISTENING EAR FOR YOUR WORDS AND A VOICE FOR THE VOICELESS AND REJECTED.

>> THE TURNOUT WAS FAIRLY LOW, REFLECTING A REJECTION BY MANY YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

WHETHER THE SUPREME RELIGIOUS LEADER IS THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF POWER.

SANAM VAKIL IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICAN PROGRAM AT CHATHAM HOUSE.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED OR NOT?

AND IS THIS MORE OF THE SAME, OR IS IT JUST -- THE PENDULUM HAS SWUNG BETWEEN REFORMISTS AND HARD LINERS?

>> I WAS VERY SURPRISED.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE WERE SURPRISED.

OVER SIX WEEKS AGO, WHEN RAISI DIED IN THAT HELICOPTER CRASH, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THAT REFORMISTS WOULD MAKE A COMEBACK.

REFORMISTS WERE MARGINALIZED AFTER ROHANNY LEFT OFFICE, AND WE SAW CONSERVATIVE CONSOLIDATION ACROSS IRAN'S ELECTED INSTITUTIONS AND UNELECTED INSTITUTIONS.

SO, THIS WAS A UNIQUE MOMENT TO TRY TO MAKE A COMEBACK, AND PEZESHKIAN REALLY EMERGED FROM THE ASHES IN THIS MOMENT, AND THEY WORKED VERY HARD TO BUILD A CAMPAIGN AROUND HIM.

>> SO, WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO RUN?

I MEAN, THE LAST TIME RAISI RAN, HE HAD BASICALLY BEEN GIVEN CARTE BLANCHE, RIGHT?

THEY BANNED ALL REFORMIST CANDIDATES.

WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO RUN THIS TIME?

WE'LL THROW A LITTLE BIT OF SOMETHING TO THE PEOPLE AND NELL NEVER WIN?

>> WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO CONSIDER WHAT IRAN HAS BEEN THROUGH OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS.

IN 2022, '23, WE SAW THE VERY DRAMATIC AND POWERFUL WOMEN LIFE PROTESTS THAT WERE BRUTALLY REPRESSED, BUT IT BECAME VERY CLEAR THAT IRAN'S LEADERSHIP HAD A BROKEN, DAMAGED RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE IN TEHRAN, BUT REALLY WRIT LARGE.

ETHNIC GROUPS, WOMEN, YOUNG PEOPLE, ALSO IN VILLAGES IN TOWNS, AND THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN OLIVE BRANCH OF AN EFFORT BY PARTS OF THE STATE TO DRAW IN PEOPLE AND SHOWCASE SOME ENGAGEMENT WITH THE PROCESS, EVEN IF IT'S NOT FULLY FREE AND FAIR, EVEN IF IT'S NOT REALLY MEANINGFUL OR IT WON'T TRANSFORM THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, IT COULD BUILD BACK SOME LEGITIMACY.

>> AND THERE WAS A VERY LOW TURNOUT.

VERY LOW.

I MEAN, IT'S BEEN -- JUST GETTING LOWER AND LOWER AND LOWER HISTORICALLY, AND THAT'S A THREAT TO THE REGIME.

THEY KEPT LEAVING THE POLLS OPEN LONGER AND LONGER AND THERE WAS A MASSIVE, YOU KNOW, SHOUT BY THE SUPREME LEADER TO GET PEOPLE OUT TO THE POLLS.

HOW THREATENING IS THAT TO THE REGIME?

>> WELL, I THINK -- ON THE ONE HAND, IT SHOWS US THAT IRAN IS NOW A STATUS QUO POWER.

THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC HAS BEEN AROUND FOR LONG ENOUGH THAT ITS VOTING TURNOUT IS THE SAME AS MANY IN DEMOCRACIES, AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC?

IT'S NOT AS TRANSFORMATIONAL, IT'S -- IT'S SORT OF STUBBORN AND RESISTANT TO CHANGE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THOUGH, THERE IS A HUGE GAP BETWEEN STATE AND SOCIETY, AND IN THE FIRST ROUND OF THE VOTE, 60% OF THE ELECTORATE CHOSE NOT TO VOTE.

BOYCOTT.

OR JUST ABDICATION AND CHOOSING TO NOT ENGAGE I THINK IS REALLY BROADER AND DEEPER DYNAMIC THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TRY AND ADDRESS, I IMAGINE.

>> SO, THE DEEPER DYNAMIC IN GENERAL FOR PEOPLE IS THE TOTAL COLLAPSE OF THE ECONOMY FOR THEM.

THE HARDSHIP THAT THEY LIVE IN.

PLUS, THE TOTAL ISOLATION THAT IRAN IS UNDER.

THEY CAN'T TRAVEL, THEY'RE NOT WELCOME ELSEWHERE, THEY FEEL THAT THEY HAVE NO FUTURE IN THIS IRAN.

PEOPLE, REFORMISTS FEEL THAT IF WE CAN GET THE SANCTIONS LIFTED, THAT IS ONE WAY TO ADDRESS THIS.

IS THAT GOING TO BE HIS MAIN TARGET?

>> I THINK HE HAS A FEW POLICIES THAT HE WANTS TO TAKE FORWARD.

INTERNALLY, I THINK THE SOCIAL DYNAMICS ARE IMPORTANT TO TRY AND ADDRESS.

HE DIDN'T COMMIT TO BEING ABLE TO REVERSE THE HIJAB LAWS, PER SE, BUT TO ROLL BACK THE OPPRESSION, THE PRESENCE OF THE MORALITY POLICE, HE SPOKE ABOUT INTERNET CENSORSHIP AS IMPORTANT, AND I THINK HE FACES -- >> AS IMPORTANT TO COMBAT.

>> YES, TO COMBAT, NOT -- HE DOESN'T SUPPORT IT, TO BE CLEAR.

HE FACES A BIT OF AN UPHILL BATTLE, BECAUSE THE INSTITUTIONS ARE DOMINATED BY CONSERVATIVES, SO, HE HAS TO BUILD CONSENSUS ACROSS THE SYSTEM THAT WILL ALLOW HIM TO OPEN UP AND LIGHTLY LIBERALIZE THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT, AND THEN TO YOUR QUESTION ON THE ECONOMY, THAT IS THE KEY ISSUE.

BUT THE ECONOMY IS DEEPLY TIED TO FOREIGN POLICY.

>> RIGHT.

>> FOREIGN DYNAMICS.

>> SO HOW SHOULD FOREIGN LEADERS, THE UNITED STATES, OTHERS, BE LOOKING AT ANOTHER REFORMIST?

THEY FEEL THAT THEY HAD A BETTER TIME OF IT WITH THE JCPOA, AND NOW THERE'S ANOTHER ONE.

AND AROUND HIM ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY, VERY INTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, SORT OF -- WELL, I MEAN, THEY WERE THE NEGOTIATORS FOR THE JCPOA.

HOW SHOULD THE UNITED STATES, WESTERN EUROPE, LOOK AT THIS MAN?

>> IT'S QUITE INTERESTING, BECAUSE CLEARLY, THE WEST HAS BEEN BURNED IN INVESTING IN IRANIAN REFORMERS, AND REFORMISTS.

THEY HAVEN'T SEEN THE TRANSFORMATION, THEY HAVEN'T WATCHED IRANIAN POLITICIANS BEING ABLE TO DELIVER CHANGE.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THIS IS AN OPENING INSIDE IRAN THAT THE WEST OR THE U.S., PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS TEAM, BUT ALSO EUROPEAN LEADERS, COULD TRY AND BUILD ON.

THIS -- THE SORT OF STORM CLOUDS AROUND IRAN ARE GROWING.

WE MIGHT NOT FEEL THEM AND SEE THEM RIGHT NOW, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF INTERCONNECTED ISSUES THAT ARE VERY FRUSTRATING.

THERE'S IN NUCLEAR PROGRAM THAT IS ACCELERATING AT A DRAMATIC LEVEL.

THERE ARE TENSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN BUILDING UP WITH FRANCE, GERMANY, AND THE UK, THEY'VE ISSUED A RESOLUTION AGAINST IRAN -- >> ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUES.

>> ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

EUROPE IS CONCERNED ABOUT IRAN'S SUPPORT FOR RUSSIA.

>> AND THEY HAD A CALL TODAY WITH PUTIN.

>> EXACTLY.

THE EUROPEAN LEADERS HAVE SAID TRANSFER OF IRANIAN MISSILES TO RUSSIA IS A RED LINE.

>> AND HE PUT OUT A STATEMENT TO SAY THAT IT WAS NO CHANGE, I MEAN, IT WAS BOILERPLATE, BUT USING THAT WORD RESISTANCE, WE WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THEM.

>> EXACTLY.

SO, THOSE THREE DYNAMICS ARE THERE.

AND THEN YOU ADD TO THAT THE HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN, YOU HAVE THE PERSISTENT DETENTION OF DUAL NATIONALS AND FOREIGN NATIONALS BY THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, AND IRAN'S CAMPAIGN AGAINST ACTIVISTS, JOURNALISTS, IRANIAN CITIZENS ABROAD.

SO, YOU MIX THAT ALL TOGETHER, AND YOU CAN SORT OF IMAGINE EUROPEAN POLITICIANS FEELING VERY FRUSTRATED.

THEY KNOW HIM ON HIS OWN ISN'T GOING TO BE TRANSFORMATIONAL, BUT THEY COULD TRY TO INCREMENTALLY ADDRESS SOME OF THESE FILES -- >> LIKE THEY DID WITH ROHANI.

>> POTENTIALLY.

THEY GOT A NUCLEAR DEAL, WHICH THEN THE UNITED STATES PULLED OUT OF, LET'S NOT FORGET.

BUT FIRST, BEFORE I ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, WHO IS HE?

I MEAN, DID HE JUST COME FROM NOWHERE?

I CALLED HIM A 69-YEAR-OLD CARDIAC SURGEON.

>> I THINK HE HAS AN INTERESTING BACKGROUND.

HE IS, YOU KNOW, A DOCTOR BY PROFESSION.

HE SERVED DURING THE IRAN/IRAQ WAR.

WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME, IN HIS BIOGRAPHY, LIKE PRESIDENT BIDEN, HE LOST HIS WIFE AND HIS CHILD IN A TRAGIC CAR ACCIDENT.

HE CHOSE TO NEVER REMARRY.

HE SORT OF RAISED HIS CHILDREN BY HIMSELF.

HE HAS KURDISH ROOTS.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

>> SO, THERE'S A BIT OF DINE MITCHELL THERE -- >> AND HE WAS A MINISTER, RIGHT?

>> MINISTER OF HEALTH.

AND HE SERVED IN PARLIAMENT.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IN THE PREVIOUS PARLIAMENTLY ELECTIONS, FIRST, HE WAS NOT PERMITTED TO RUN BY THE GUARDIAN COUNCIL.

THERE WAS THEN AN APPEAL, AND THEN HE GOT IN, AND THEN HE, OF COURSE, WAS ELECTED TO PARLIAMENT.

SO, HE'S AN INSIDER, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, HE UNDERSTANDS THE SYSTEM.

I THINK HE KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE SYSTEM.

HE HAS REMAINED STEADFAST AND VERY OVERT IN BEING LOYAL TO KHOMEINI, AND I THINK THAT IS PERHAPS AN ASTUTE STRATEGY, TO PUSH THROUGH SOME OF THESE DIFFICULT ISSUES, IF HE CAN.

>> AND, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY THOUGH WHICH SIDE THEIR BREAD IS BUTTERED IN THAT REGARD.

BUT -- WHAT DO YOU THINK A TRUMP OR A BIDEN OR WHOEVER WINS THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION -- THEY ALSO HAVE, YOU KNOW, RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DYNAMIC OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE U.S.

WANTS TO GET BACK TO SOME KIND OF -- OF MORE SOLID STABLE GROUND?

ESPECIALLY AROUND THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

>> I'LL BE HONEST, CHRISTIANE, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS DEEP THINKING ABOUT GETTING BACK TO SOLID GROUND.

IRAN IS A TOXIC ASSET, HAS BEEN FOR DECADES FOR THE U.S. AND FOR U.S. POLICY MAKERS.

IRAN IS ABOUT BEING MANAGED AND CONTAINED.

AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TRIED THESE MINI-DEALS TO CONTAIN THE IRANIAN CRISIS, AND SHOULD BIDEN WIN AND LET'S SEE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN THERE, I EXPECT MUCH OF THAT TO CONTINUE.

I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE BIG BREAKTHROUGHS.

IT'S HARD TO SELL IRAN TO THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE.

BUT TRUMP HAS VERY CLEARLY INDICATED THAT, YOU KNOW, MAX PRESSURE, SANCTIONS, OVERSIGHT, AND EVEN MAXIMUM SUPPORT FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE COULD COME BACK, AND THAT COULD BE A GAME-CHANGER, PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

>> YOU TALKED BRIEFLY ABOUT THE HIJAB LAW, WHICH IS THE LEAKED MOTIF OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THEY'RE -- WOMEN MIGHT GET MORE RIGHTS UNDER HIM?

>> I'M NOT PARTICULARLY OPTIMISTIC.

I'LL BE HONEST.

WOMEN IN IRAN HAVE BEEN AGITATING FOR RIGHTS FOR 45 YEARS, AND IT'S BEEN VERY HARD FOR THEM TO GET THEM ON PAPER.

WHAT IRANIAN WOMEN HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT DOING IS CIRCUMVENTING AND FINDING WORKAROUNDS AND AT SOME POINT, INCREMENTAL GAINS, AND THAT'S, I THINK, WHAT IS ONLY ON OFFER RIGHT NOW.

>> AND VERY LASTLY, BRIEFLY, 30 SECONDS, THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTIONARY GUARD, ARE THEY THE REAL POWERS?

AND HOW DOES THIS EFFECT THEM?

>> I THINK THEY'RE PART OF THE SYSTEM.

THEY'RE PART OF THE DEEP STATE, AS I SEE THEM, AND THEY ARE VESTED, THEY ARE -- THEY HAVE STAYING POWER, AND LIKE ALL LEADERS ACROSS THE SYSTEM, HE HAS TO WORK WITH THEM, FIND ENTRY POINTS, AND I THINK THE GUARDS, AT SOME POINT, CAN BE PRAGMATIC ON CERTAIN ISSUES, PERHAPS THEY'RE THINKING ALSO ABOUT THEIR FUTURE, BUT THEY'RE VERY INVESTED IN PROTECTING THE SYSTEM, INVESTED IN THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE, SO, THOSE -- POLICIES AND RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT REALLY GOING TO CHANGE IN A MEANINGFUL WAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> NEXT, TO CREATING ART.

EVER WONDERED HOW ARTISTS MAKE GREAT PIECES?

IS IT TALENT, DISCIPLINE, RUTHLESS SELF-EDITING, PROMOTION, OR SOMETHING MORE PERSONAL?

ADAM MOSS, THE FORMER AWARD-WINNING "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE EDITOR, BECAME FASCINATED WITH THIS QUESTION WHEN HE MADE THE SWITCH TO PAINTING.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE WORK OF ART," MOSS DIVES INTO THE MINDS OF CREATIVES AND THEIR ARTISTIC PROCESSES, AND HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHAT HE'S OBSERVED.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND ADAM MOSS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

REALLY GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOUR BOOK BEGINS WITH THE SQUIGGLY DRAWING THAT FRANK GARY DOES AS A THOUGHT OF WHAT THE GUGGENHEIM WILL BE.

AND THEN YOU GO THERE, AND I THINK ALSO, YOU DID A STORY ON THE GUGEN HIM WHEN YOU WERE AT "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE, COMPARING IT TO MARILYN MONROE.

TELL ME HOW THAT SQUIGGLY BECOMES THAT BUILDING AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM FRANK GARY.

>> WELL, I WAS JUST RIVETED BY THIS -- I WAS ACTUALLY IN THE GIFT SHOP OF THE MUSEUM, AND THE -- THE BUILDING ITSELF IS JUST THIS WEIRD, CRAZY BUILDING, WHICH, YES, THE OLD ARCHITECTURE CRITIC OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES", HE HAD WRITTEN THIS TRIBUTE TO THIS BUILDING, WHICH WAS, I MEAN, NOW WE'RE KIND OF USED TO WHAT FRANK GARY DOES, BUT AT THAT TIME, THIS WAS KIND OF THE FIRST OF THEM, AND IT WAS LIKE, WHOA, WHAT IS HE DOING HERE?

AND TO BE IN THE BUILDING, OPENING THIS BOOK CALLED "GARY DRAWS" AND TO SEE THIS FIRST, OR, EARLY THOUGHT, MANIFESTED IS JUST A FABULOUSLY CRAZY DOODLE, WAS TO SEE THAT INITIAL THOUGHT IN ACTION.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THEN COMES A LOT OF STRUGGLE, AND A LOT OF ENGINEERING PROBLEMS, ET CETERA, BUT THAT FIRST IMPULSE WAS CAUGHT IN THIS DRAWING, WHICH SO MOVED ME, AND THAT'S WHY I STARTED THE BOOK WITH IT, BECAUSE IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL TO ME.

>> YOU KNOW, I WAS LIKE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK, I'M A BIT SLOW, WHEN I REALIZED THE DOUBLE MEANINGS THAT HIT ME OF THE TITLE.

"THE WORK OF ART.

"AND THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE ARTWORK, IT'S ABOUT ALL THE WORK THAT GOES INTO IT.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU DECIDED TO PICK THAT TITLE AND MAKE THAT THE THEME OF THE BOOK?

>> WELL, THE FIRST TITLE OF THE BOOK WAS "EDITING."

SOMETHING YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE.

>> WELL, YOU, TOO, YOU WERE THE GREAT EDITOR BACK THEN IN OUR DAY.

>> TRYING TO -- AH, THANK YOU.

TRYING TO CLAIM EDITING IN A BROADER WAY THAN WE BASICALLY UNDERSTAND IT, IN TERMS OF MOVING WORDS AROUND, AND THAT SORT OF THING, OR EVEN IMAGES IN A FILM CONTEXT, BUT THEN, THAT JUST SEEMED TOO LIMITED IN WHAT I WAS REALLY AFTER, WAS SOMETHING MORE MUNDANE, WHICH IS THE LABOR, AND WHAT CONSTITUTES THE LABOR OF THE MAKING OF ART.

SOMETHING I WAS DEEPLY CURIOUS ABOUT, AND ACTUALLY HAD A KIND OF OF PSYCHOLOGICAL NEED TO UNDERSTAND.

AS I WAS TRYING TO DO MY OWN ART, WHEN I LEFT MAGAZINES, I TRIED TO BE A PAINTER, STILL TRYING TO BE A PAINTER, AND I KIND OF DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ARTISTS THINK, OR, I FELT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ARTISTS THINK, AND I FELT I COULD MAYBE GET AHOLD ON THAT BY TRACING THE ACTUAL WORK, BOTH THE STEPS AND ALSO MORE PARTICULARLY THE SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL STATE OF AN ARTIST, AS THEY WORK THROUGH SOMETHING.

SO, EVENTUALLY, THE PUN OF "THE WORK OF ART" JUST OCCURRED TO ME, AND IT WAS JUST EXACTLY WHAT I WAS AFTER.

THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK IS, "HOW SOMETHING CAME FROM NOTHING."

AND I WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT NARRATIVE.

>> YOU TALK, THOUGH, ABOUT YOUR OWN DISPOSITION, YOU CALL IT -- >> YES.

>> TO BE COLLABORATIVE, WHICH MADE IT A LITTLE BIT HARDER TO BE A PAINTER, I THINK.

>> OH, DEFINITELY, YES.

>> WHAT IS IT?

IS IT DISPOSITION THAT MAKES AN ARTIST?

>> I THINK IT'S A LOT OF QUALITIES.

I THINK THERE'S A DISCIPLINE.

I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR IMAGINATION.

I SHOULD START RIGHT THERE.

THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE -- I MEAN, A LOT OF THE SUBJECTS IN THE BOOK TALKED ABOUT HAVING ADHD, WHICH, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S TRUE IN A CLINICAL SENSE, BUT THE BASIC MOVEMENT OF WHAT ADHD SUGGESTS TO PEOPLE, WHICH IS THE DISTRACTABILITY, AND THEN THE HYPERFOCUS ON ONE THING, PRETTY MUCH DEFINED IN A LOT OF WAYS WHAT -- HOW AN ARTIST WORKS.

THEY WONDER AND THEN THEY BEAR DOWN.

AND THE ABILITY TO DO THAT, TO BE ABLE TO SORT OF TRAVERSE THE IMAGINATION AND THEN THE HARD CORE DISCIPLINE, THE WORK OF SHAPING THE THING, WAS KIND OF THE KEY TO ALL OF IT.

AND THEY HAD, JUST TO GET BACK TO EDITING, THEY HAD A TERRIFIC ABILITY TO EDIT THEMSELVES, TO ACTUALLY SEE WHAT THEIR IMAGINATION HAD KIND OF SPEWED OUT, AND THEN TO MAKE VERY STRATEGIC DECISIONS, BASED ON THEIR OWN REACTION TO IT.

>> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT.

BECAUSE THERE ARE WONDERFUL THINGS IN THE BOOK, MINI-DRAFTS, A WORK OF ART, A STORY ON FRANK SINATRA, IN WHICH YOU SEE THE EDITING PROCESS.

>> YEAH, SO, FOR EXAMPLE, GEORGE SAUNDERS, HE WROTE ALL THESE NOTES TO HIMSELF, WHERE HE WAS KIND OF EVERY VALUE WAITING WHAT IT WAS THAT HE HAD THROWN ON THE PAGE, AND SOMEWHAT RUTHLESSLY CREATING A MAP TOWARD MOVING FROM DRAFT TO DRAFT.

AMY SILLMAN, SHE MADE, LIKE, 100 VERSIONS OF A PAINTING THAT WE TALK ABOUT CALLED "MISS GLEASON," WHERE SHE JUST PAINTED OVER AND OVER AND OVER, REALLY BEAUTIFUL PAINTINGS ON THE WAY TO THIS FANTASTIC PAINTING SHE ENDED UP WITH.

BUT TO SEE ALL OF THE STEPS, TO SEE ALL THE EXAMPLES, TO SEE ALL THE THINGS THAT SHE DESTROYED ON THE WAY TO CREATING, WAS ACTUALLY ALMOST TO SEE AN ARTIST IN ACTION.

IT WAS ALMOST AS IF I WAS MAKING A PICTURE DOCUMENTARY, AND YOU COULD SEE THE MOVEMENT, THE MOMENTS.

AND I TRIED TO RECREATE THAT IN THE BOOK.

I TRIED TO SOMEHOW MAKE THAT NARRATIVE COME ALIVE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SET UP A TENSION AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK BETWEEN SORD OF AUDEN, WHO I IS AS, HEY, IT'S A TALENT YOU'RE BORN WITH, AND I THINK IT'S BALDWIN WRIGHT WHO SAYS, NO, NO, IT'S DISCIPLINE, AND THE RIG GOIR, AND AT THE END OF THE BOOK, YOU SEE, YOU HAVEN'T REALLY DECIDED WHICH, BUT AS I GO THROUGH THE BOOK, I THINK I'M ON BALDWIN'S SIDE, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DISCIPLINE AND THE RIGOR.

>> WELL I -- I THINK YOU NEED BOTH, IS THE THING.

I THINK IT'S HELPFUL.

IT'S AT LEAST HELPFUL TO BE TALENTED.

ONE SHOULDN'T DISMISS THAT FACT, IS THAT THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN EASIER TIME AT THIS THAN OTHERS, AND SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE A KIND OF PERSONALITY THAT ALLOWS THEM TO ACCESS THE ID, IF YOU WILL.

AND -- BUT THEN, YEAH, IT'S LIKE -- IT'S THE ABILITY TO ENDURE FAILURE.

IT -- THIS BOOK IS LITTERED WITH FAILURE.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE A ROAD RUNNER CARTOON.

PEOPLE JUST KEEP FALLING OFF THE CLIFF.

AND THEIR CAPACITY TO PICK THEMSELVES UP, TO HACK THROUGH THE WRECKAGE, AND TO KEEP GOING IS DEEPLY IMPRESSIVE TO ME, AND I -- I THINK THE MARK OF SOMEONE WHO REALLY SUCCEEDS AS AN ARTIST.

>> THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, THE IDEA OF SPIRITUALITY AND FAITH POPS UP EVERY NOW AND THEN, AND YOU ASKED ALL THE ARTISTS YOU SPOKE WITH, WHAT IS THE SOURCE OF THEIR INSPIRATION, AND IT WAS A MUSICIAN, MOSES SUMNEY, WHO GIVES YOU AN ANSWER, IT COMES FROM GOD, ABSOLUTELY.

YOU ADMIT THAT YOU HAD TROUBLE APPRECIATING THE IMPORTANCE OF FAITH.

HAVE YOUR FEELINGS EVOLVED ON THAT, WITH SO MANY PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE SPIRITUALITY THAT'S INVOLVED IN ART?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I JUST -- I'M JUST A DEEPLY SECULAR PERSON, AND SO I -- MY OWN UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE THESE THINGS COME FROM HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE SUBCONSCIOUS THAN IT HAS TO DO WITH GOD OR SOME OTHER WORLDLY INSPIRATION.

BUT I THINK BASICALLY WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING.

IT'S THE THING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

AND THERE'S A CERTAIN ACEPTANCE OF THE THING THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO COME TO AS AN ARTIST, AND I HAD TO COME TO AS A WRITER ABOUT ARTISTS.

BUT FAITH, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT FAITH IS THAT IT HAS SEVERAL DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

AGAIN, IT'S -- AND ONE OF THOSE MEANINGS IS FAITH IN YOURSELF.

AND THERE'S A GREAT QUOTE BY WALKER EVANS, THE PHOTOGRAPHER WALKER EVANS, WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT HAVING LEARNED FAITH, AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT FAITH MIGHT BE READ BY OTHER PEOPLE AS A KIND OF EGOTISM, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE ANYTHING WITHOUT A CERTAIN KIND OF FAITH IN YOURSELF, A KIND OF INNER ABILITY THAT YOU CAN MAKE THIS THING THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE.

WHICH I ACTUALLY, PERSONALLY, AS A PAINTER, LACK COMPLETELY.

I HAVE NO FAITH WHATSOEVER, I'M TRYING TO GET SOME, AND FAITH DOES COME FROM EXPERIENCE, BUT IT ALSO COMES FROM CHARACTER.

>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT SELF-SABOTAGE.

I THINK YOU TALK TO AMY SILLMAN ABOUT IT, AND OTHERS.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS AND WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S IMPORTANT.

BUT IT'S -- IT'S A -- IT'S A FACT THAT THAT I ENCOUNTERED OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT SOMETHING IN THE MIND IS TRYING TO PREVENT THE ARTIST FROM MAKING THE THING.

THE MIND IS TRYING TO PROTECT THE ARTIST.

IN SOME WAYS.

WE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL VERY GOOD AT PROTECTING OURSELVES FROM A CERTAIN KIND OF PAIN.

AND ARTISTS DO THAT, TOO.

BUT THE CERTAIN KIND OF PAIN IS CLEARLY NECESSARY.

TO THE MAKING OF THE THING.

OR, AT LEAST GETTING IN TOUCH WITH SOMETHING RAW AND MAYBE DIFFICULT.

AND -- SO THE -- SO, THEIR MIND TAKES OVER AND TRIES TO, YOU KNOW, TRIES TO DISTURB THE THING.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MANY, MANY THINGS THAT THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THEIR WAY THROUGH ON THEIR WAY TO THE FINISHED WORK.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE VIRTUES YOU NEED, BUT YOU ALSO SAY IT'S A COBINATION OF VIRTUES AND FL FLAWS TOGETHER.

TELL ME ABOUT WHO TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH SHEILA HEADY, WHICH I PUT AT THE END OF THE BOOK, WHICH I THOUGHT SAID IT PRETTY WELL.

SHE WAS SAYING, WELL -- I WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS THING THAT I COULDN'T LET GO OF, WHICH IS, HOW IS IT THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE ART OR NOT OTHERS, OR OTHERS HAVE MORE TROUBLE WITH IT?

SHE SAID, FOR ME, IT'S JUST THAT I CAN ENDURE TODAY YUM.

I LIKE SITTING AROUND.

I LIKE THE BOREDOM.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF TEDIOUS WORK THAT GOES INTO MAKING KIND OF ALMOST ANYTHING.

AND THEY CAN JUST ENDURE IT, BECAUSE THEY'RE KIND OF BUILT THAT WAY.

AND THEY MAY NOT HAVE OTHER VIRTUES.

THEY MAY NOT -- I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY NOT ULTIMATELY BE KIND.

KINDNESS ISN'T NECESSARILY RELATED TO THE MAKING OF ART, THOUGH EMPATHY CERTAINLY IS.

BUT THEY -- THEY HAVE A KIND OF LIST OF CHARACTERISTICS, WHERE THEY BE VIRTUES OR FLAWS IN OUR OBSERVATION OF IT, THAT ADD UP TO THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE BEING AN ARTIST POSSIBLE.

>> ONE OTHER UNUSUAL PIECE OF ART IN THE BOOK IS THE EDITOR OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," DOING A FRONT PAGE OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," YOU HAVE A FEW FRONT PAGES, BUT ESPECIALLY THE ONES OF WHAT WE LOST IN COVID, AND IT -- ALSO HARKEN BACK TO YOUR "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE DAYS WHERE GRAPHIC DESIGN AND THE VISUAL DISPLAY OF INFORMATION BECOMES A PIECE OF ART.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM THAT ONE.

>> WELL, OKAY, SO, IN THAT CASE, THE WORK ITSELF THAT WE DISCUSSED WAS A FRONT PAGE, THE COVID LOSS, WHICH, IF ANYONE REMEMBERS THAT FRONT PAGE, AND KIND OF PAYS ATTENTION TO HOW "THE NEW YORK TIMES" TALKS, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOCKED BY IT.

IT WAS A -- ALMOST LIKE A VIETNAM MEMORIAL THAT SIMPLY LISTED IN TINY, TINY TYPE, THE COVID DEAD.

THIS WAS AT THE MOMENT OF THE 100,000th COVID DEATH IN 2020.

AND THAT JUST SEEMED, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS WORKED AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" FOR A LOT OF YEARS, EXTRAORDINARY.

LIKE, HOW DOES AN INSTITUTION, ESPECIALLY AS TRADITIONAL AN INSTITUTION AS "THE NEW YORK TIMES," CREATE THIS WITHIN ITS OWN CONTEXT RADICAL WORK THAT WAS, TO ME, CATEGORICALLY NOT A PIECE OF INFORMATION IN THE WAY THAT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" FRONT PAGE IS.

INFORMATION HIERARCHY, JUDGMENT, ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

BUT IT WAS LIKE THE VIETNAM MEMORIAL A KIND OF TRIBUTE THAT WAS AN ARTISTIC WORK.

SO, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

AND I TALKED TO DEAN, WHO WAS THE EDITOR AT THE TIME, AND TO TOM BOTKIN, WHO WAS THE CHIEF DESIGNER, ABOUT THE STEPS, WHICH WERE REALLY ORIGINALLY, THEY HAD MADE ALL THESE BABY STEPS, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THESE OTHER FRONT PAGES, AT THE BEGINNING, COVID WAS SO HUGE A STORY, AND SO IMPORTANT TO IMPRESS UPON THE READERS ITS EXTRAORDINARY HISTORICAL MEANING, THAT THEY TRIED ALL THESE BABY STEPS.

THEY, LIKE, WHICH -- TOO COMPLICATED TO EXPLAIN HERE, BUT THEY WERE ALL WAYS TO DISTURB OR DISRUPT THE WAY THE FRONT PAGE USUALLY WORKED.

AND THEN THAT EMBOLDENED THEM TO TRY SOMETHING INCREDIBLY RADICAL, WHICH WAS TO DEVOTE THE ENTIRE PAGE TO THIS, IN A -- IN A WAY THAT WOULD HAVE VISUAL IMPACT, AND NOT VERBAL, OR AN IMPACT THROUGH TEXT.

AND EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS TEXT, IT WAS FUNCTIONING.

YOU COULDN'T REALLY READ THE NAMES.

IT WAS FUNCTIONING AS A PIECE OF VISUAL INFORMATION, VISUAL STORYTELLING.

I MEAN, THE BOOK DOESN'T DEAL VERY MUCH WITH THE WAY THE CREATIVITY WORKS IN INSTITUTIONS, BUT THIS WAS ONE EXAMPLE I THOUGHT WAS PRETTY STRIKING, AND I WANTED TO INCLUDE IT IN SOME WAYS AS A COMPLIMENT TO THE TRADITION ALWAYS THAT PEOPLE MAKE ART.

>> DID YOU GET, BY THE END OF THE BOOK, THE ANSWER YOU WERE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHEN YOU BEGAN THE BOOK?

>> I DID, ACTUALLY, HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH, BECAUSE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN I WOULD TRY TO GET THE ARTIST, THIS IS JUST PART OF MY JOURNALIST TRAINING, YOU'LL RECOGNIZE THIS AS, YOU KNOW, FROM YOUR OWN JOURNALIST WORK, YOU KIND OF WANT A CATHARSIS, YOU WANT SOMETHING TO WORK WITH, YOU WANT, LIKE, THE -- OH, MY GOD, I MADE THIS THING.

I HOPED THAT THE BOOK WOULD BE JUST ONE HUGE AH-HA AFTER ANOTHER, AND IT WOULD HAVE THAT FEELING OF ALMOST LIKE A ROM-COM MONTAGE, WHERE THEY'RE FINALLY FALLING IN LOVE AT THE END.

AND I WOULDN'T GET IT.

NO ONE HAD THAT KIND OF THING WHEN THEY WERE AT THE END OF THEIR WORK.

THEY WOULD FEEL RELIEVED.

OKAY, I GOT SOMEWHERE, OKAY, IT'S FINISHED, OKAY, I'M EXHAUSTED, I'M READY TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, BUT THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE THE, OH, MY GOD, I MADE THIS THING THAT WE ALL RECOGNIZE AS THESE CLASSICS.

THESE BEAUTIFUL MASTERPIECES.

AND WHAT THEY WOULD TELL ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS THAT THEY WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT ABOUT THE THING THAT I'M MAKING.

IT'S ABOUT THE WORK ITSELF.

IT IS ABOUT THE STRUGGLE TO MAKE THE THING.

THAT'S WHAT GETS ME UP IN THE MORNING.

THAT'S WHAT I GO -- THAT'S WHAT GIVES ME MY SENSE OF -- OF JOY, AND IT ALSO JUST DEFINES ME AS AN INDIVIDUAL, AND THERE WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND THE THIRD YEAR OF WORKING ON THIS BOOK, I FINALLY TOOK IT TO HEART, AND I SAID, YEAH, IT'S ABOUT THE WORK.

AND I BROUGHT THAT BACK TO MY OWN PAINTING, AND NOW, THAT'S HOW I PAINT.

I -- AND AS A RESULT, I'M ACTUALLY PAINTING BETTER THINGS.

BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN THE POINT.

THE POINT IS TO RELISH THE MAKING OF THE THING ITSELF, AND I LOVE THAT.

>> ADAM MOSS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH.

>>> AND FINALLY, I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS ART, BUT NOTHING GETS THE HEART RACING LIKE CHARGING BULLS.

AS PART OF SPAIN'S ANNUAL NINE-DAY FESTIVAL, THESE 600-KILO HORNED HEAVYWEIGHTS ARE LET LOOSE INTO THE NARROW STRAITS OF PAMPLONA, AND THOUSANDS OF THRILL-SEEKING PEOPLE, REVELERS, JOIN IN.

ACCORDING TO LOCAL MEDIA, AT LEAST SIX HAVE BEEN INJURED, THOUGH, OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS.

THE BULL RUN TAKES PLACE EVERY MORNING FOR THE NEXT WEEK.

DESPITE THE DANGER, SOME PARTICIPANTS TAKE PART IN THIS TRADITION EVERY YEAR.

CALLING THESE FESTIVITIES THE BEST PARTY IN SPAIN.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR YOUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.