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♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> WE REFUSE TO LET THE TALIBAN DEPRIVE US OF OUR FUTURE.
>> A CALL TO ACTION SINCE MORE THAN 1,000 DAYS SINCE THE TALIBAN BANNED AFGHAN GIRLS FROM GOING TO SCHOOL.
>> WHEN TERRORISTS ARE SHOOTING AT YOU, YOU LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND.
>> THE FOUNDER OF THE MUSIC FESTIVAL TELLS ME ABOUT SURVIVES HAMAS' ATTACK AND HIS NEW EXHIBIT DOCUMENTS THAT DAY.
>> IT WAS A SHOCKINGLY DIFFERENT TIME.
THE PAST IS A FOREIGN COUNTRY.
>> THE YEAR OF LIVING CONSTITUTIONALLY.
TALKING TO AUTHOR A.J.
JACOBS, WHO SPENT 12 MONTHS LIVING LIKE IT'S THE 1,700s.
♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, MARK J., SETONJ.
MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURE DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M IN NEW YORK CITY, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR.
THE COUNTRY MARKS 1,000 DAYS SINCE GIRLS WERE BANNED FROM ATTENDING SECONDARY SCHOOL AS THE TALIBAN CONTINUE TO TIGHTEN THEIR GRIP ON THE COUNTRY, DESPITE PROMISING MODERATION AFTER TAKING POWER IN AUGUST OF 2021.
IT IS NOW ONCE MORE A DESPERATE PLACE FOR WOMEN, WHO FOR PUBLIC PARKS TO JOBS, FIND THEMSELVES FADING AWAY.
IT'S A REALITY CALLED GENDER APARTHEID.
THE TERM SHE CALLS ON WORLD LEADERS TO RECOGNIZE IT IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
SHE IS, OF COURSE, A SURVIVOR OF THAT VIOLENCE AGAINST GIRLS, SHOT BY A PAKISTAN TALIBAN ON HER WAY HOME FROM SCHOOL WHEN SHE WAS JUST 15 YEARS OLD.
SHE HAS SINCE BECOME THE YOUNGER EVER NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER AND A FIERCE ADVOCATE FOR THE RIGHTS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD.
TODAY HER FOUNDATION IS ANNOUNCING ANOTHER $1.5 MILLION TO KEEP GIRLS' EDUCATION ALIVE IN AFGHANISTAN.
AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.
MALALA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS PROGRAM ON THIS REALLY GRIM MILESTONE MARKING 1,000 DAYS SINCE GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN HAVE BEEN DEPRIVED OF WHAT SHOULD BE SOMETHING EVERY CHILD IS ENTITLED TO, AND THAT OBVIOUSLY ISN'T EDUCATION.
JUST TALK TO US PERSONALLY ABOUT WHAT THIS MOMENT MEANS FOR YOU.
>> IT HAS BEEN THREE YEARS THAT AFGHAN GIRLS HAVE NOT SEEN THEIR CLASSROOMS.
IT HAS BEEN MORE THAN 1,000 DAYS THAT AFGHAN GIRLS HAVE NOT SEEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN.
AND THAT IS MAKING IT ILLEGAL IN AFGHANISTAN.
THE TALIBAN ARE DENYING WOMEN AND GIRLS THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.
AND THIS SHOULD SHOCK US.
THIS SHOULD PUT US INTO ACTION.
THAT'S WHY I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO CALL IT A SYSTEMATIC OPPRESSION IMPOSED BY THE TALIBAN ON THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, WHICH IS LIMITING THEM FROM EDUCATION, FROM LEARNING, FROM WORK AND FROM A PUBLIC LIFE.
AND THAT IS WHY AFGHAN WOMEN ACTIVISTS ARE CALLING IT A GENDER APARTHEID, WHICH MEANS IT IS A SYSTEMIC OPPRESSION BY THOSE WHO ARE IN POWER FOR MEN TO ACTUALLY PROTECT THEM.
THERE IS NO PLACE FOR AFGHAN WOMEN TO GO TO.
THEY HAVE CURRENTLY NO FUTURE.
>> ARE YOU SATISFIED?
AND I WOULD ASSUME THE ANSWER IS NO, WITH THE ATTENTION AND FOCUS THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE IS GETTING FROM AROUND THE WORLD AND THE PRESSURE BEING PUT ON THE TALIBAN TO BRING THIS UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THE REAL ABUSE, EMOTIONAL, MENTAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EVEN PHYSICAL THAT WOMEN HAVE HAD TO ENDURE SINCE THEY CAME BACK INTO POWER?
>> I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ACTIVISM SINCE THE FALL OF KABUL IN 2021, AND I REMEMBER AT THAT TIME THE OUTRAGE THAT AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS WERE SHOWING, THAT WE CANNOT TRUST THE TALIBAN.
BUT SOME PEOPLE SAID THAT WE NEED TO GET THEM A BIT MORE TIME, AND WE NEED TO TRUST THE TALIBAN ON THEIR PROMISES.
BUT THE WOMEN, THE AFGHAN WOMEN KNEW IT.
NOW IT HAS BEEN MORE THAN THREE YEARS.
WHAT IS THE EXCUSE NOW?
IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT THOSE WHO ARE NEGOTIATING AND TALKING TO THE TALIBAN PRIORITIZE WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND GIRLS' EDUCATION, THAT WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND GIRLS EDUCATION IS A NONNEGOTIABLE CONDITION ON THE TABLE.
AND THOSE WOMEN HAVE TO BE IN THOSE ROOMS WHERE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR FUTURE ARE MADE.
AND THERE ARE MEETINGS HAPPENING AT THE END OF THIS MONTH AS WELL.
SO I DO PUSH LEADERS.
I DO PUSH THE UN OFFICIALS AS WELL THAT THEY HAVE TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS NO COMPROMISE ON THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND GIRLS.
WE CANNOT LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE WE ALL CLAIM OUR LEADERS CLAIM THAT WE CARE ABOUT GENDER EQUITY AND EQUALITY WHILE WE ARE PUTTING ALL OF THAT AT RISK IF AFGHANISTAN.
WE ARE NOT EVEN REACTING THAT GIRLS' EDUCATION RIGHT NOW IS BANNED, IS PROHIBITED FOR GIRLS.
>> A REMINDER OF THE FALSE PROMISES MADE AND PERHAPS THE NAIVE TRUST OR HOPE THAT WAS GIVEN TO THIS NEW TALIBAN, AS THEY CALLED IT, 2.0 WHEN THEY CAME BACK TO POWER.
THIS HAS BEEN AN ISSUE THAT WE HAVE FOCUSED A LOT OF TIME HERE ON CNN.
CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR SPECIFICALLY, AS YOU KNOW.
AND SHE BROUGHT THIS UP WITH THE DEPUTY LEADER OF THE TALIBAN AT THE TIME IN 2022 AND ASKED HIM HIM ABOUT GIRLS' RIGHTS.
HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.
>> WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS RAISING THE ISSUE OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS A LOT.
HERE IN AFGHANISTAN, THERE ARE ISLAMIC, NATIONAL, CULTURAL AND TRADITIONAL PRINCIPLES.
WITHIN THE LIMIT OF THOSE PRINCIPLES, WE ARE WORKING TO PROVIDE THEM WITH OPPORTUNITIES TO WORK, AND THAT IS OUR GOAL.
>> HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?
WHAT ARE THESE QUOTE, UNQUOTE OPPORTUNITIES WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE PARAMETERS HE SET?
>> THERE ARE A DOZEN COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
AND IN NONE OF THOSE MUSLIM COUNTRIES DO YOU SEE GIRLS PROHIBITED FROM EDUCATION OR PROHIBITED FROM WORK.
IT IS NOT A CRIME FOR GIRLS TO HAVE RIGHTS IN THOSE COUNTRIES.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW THAT CULTURAL AND RELIGION ARE OFTEN USED AS AN EXCUSE TO LIMIT WOMEN, TO PROTECT THEIR MISOGYNY.
THERE IS NO SOLID BASIS FOR THAT AT ALL.
ISLAM ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING EDUCATION FOR ALL CHILDREN, FOR EVERYBODY.
AND IN ISLAM, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GET EDUCATION.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT SORT OF SYSTEM, WHAT SORT OF IDEOLOGY THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, BUT THE CULTURE THAT I COME FROM AND THE RELIGION THAT I KNOW, IT ENCOURAGES EDUCATION.
AND I THINK THE TALIBAN NEED TO -- LIKE AT THIS POINT I WOULD SAY WE NEED MORE MUSLIM LEADERS AND MORE MUSLIM COUNTRIES TO STEP FORWARD AND ACTUALLY CHALLENGE THE TALIBAN TO SAY THAT IN ISLAM THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR A BAN ON GIRLS' EDUCATION AND PREVENTING WOMEN FROM WORK IN THE ISLAMIC CONTEST.
>> THIS IS NOT JUST A HUMAN RIGHT.
IT IS A RIGHT HURTING THE AFGHAN ECONOMY AS WELL, WHERE SO MANY WOMEN ARE JUST NOT ALLOWED TO CONTRIBUTE.
YOU ARE, THOUGH, CONTRIBUTING, THOUGH, THROUGH YOUR FUND.
$1.5 MILLION AS WE NOTED.
EXPLAIN TO US HOW YOU AND YOUR FUND, THROUGH THIS MONEY, ARE ABLE TO HELP IN ANY WAY YOU CAN SPECIFICALLY.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
>> WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE OF AFGHANISTAN, IT IS STILL THE WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO GIVE ME HOPE.
THEY ARE FOCUSSING ON THIS EVERY DAY FOR THE RIGHT TO AN EDUCATION, TO WORK, TO POLITICAL PRESENTATION AND TO A PUBLIC LIFE.
THAT'S WHY WE ARE SUPPORTING AFGHAN ACTIVISTS ON THE GROUND WITH $1.5 MILLION ADDITIONAL FUNDING TO ORGANIZATIONS, 13 ORGANIZATIONS IN AFGHANISTAN WHO ARE WORKING ON THE FRONT LINE TO ADVOCATE FOR GIRLS' RIGHTS TO AN EDUCATION.
WE ARE ALSO AT THE SAME TIME SUPPORTING THE CAMPAIGN AND THE MOVEMENT LED BY AFGHAN WOMEN TO RECOGNIZE GENDER APARTHEID AND TO END IT AND TO HOLD THE TALIBAN TO ACCOUNT FOR COMMITTING THESE CRIMES AND TO PUSH LEADERS AND TO HOLD THEM TO ACCOUNT AS WELL FOR -- TO ENSURE THAT THEY ALSO TAKE STEPS.
>> IT WAS IN 2013, SOME 11 YEARS AGO WHEN BUT YOUR 16 THAT YOU SPOKE BEFORE THE UN.
HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID.
YOU SAID PEACE IS NECESSARY FOR EDUCATION.
YOU SAID THERE IS WAY TOO MUCH OFFERING AND WAR HAPPENING RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK.
THERE ARE TWO BIG HOT WARS IN UKRAINE AND IN GAZA THERE.
AND I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE RECENTLY ANNOUNCED A NEW GRADUATE PROGRAM AND SCHOLARSHIP FOR PALESTINIANS AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY.
JUST TALK TO US ABOUT THIS MISSION FOR YOU AND THE HOPE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO GIVE THE PALESTINIAN WOMEN, CHILDREN IN TERMS OF THEIR EFFORTS TO GO TO SCHOOL, TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THAT CAN'T HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.
>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK WE NEED TO REMIND ALL OF US THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA TO PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, TO PALESTINIAN CHILDREN IS HORRIFYING.
MORE THAN 80% OF THE SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN DAMAGED.
ALMOST ALL UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN BOMBED IN THIS BOMBING BY ISRAEL.
SO WHEN I THINK ABOUT ANY WAR, ANY CRISIS IN THE WORLD, I THINK ABOUT CHILDREN.
THESE WARS TAKE AWAY THEIR DREAMS, THEIR FUTURE.
I WANT US TO BE IN A CLASSROOM.
I WANT CHILDREN TO BE STUDYING, TO BE DREAMING ABOUT THEIR FUTURE, TO BE PLAYING OUTSIDE ON THEIR STREETS.
WAR AND CONFLICTS AND OPPRESSION TAKES ALL OF THAT AWAY FROM CHILDREN.
WE ARE SEEING THAT HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN.
WE ARE SEEING THESE THINGS HAPPENING IN SUDAN AND IN GAZA.
THIS HAS TO STOP.
AGAIN, I WANT OUR LEADERS TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN, TO THINK ABOUT HUMANITY AND TO TAKE A BRAVE STEP TOWARDS PEACE.
AND THE SAME I'M HOPING FOR AFGHANISTAN AS WELL, THAT IT HAS BEEN 1,000 DAYS.
I CANNOT IMAGINE THAT IT'S 2,000 DAYS, 3,000 DAYS.
WE CANNOT KEEP AFGHAN GIRLS WAITING.
I WANT TO REITERATE THAT IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO STAND WITH AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS.
THEY ARE AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS CAMPAIGN.
SO I'M HERE TO SHARE MY EMPATHY AND TO SHARE MY SOLIDARITY TO THEM, TO ALL ACTIVISTS IN THE WORLD WHO ARE SPEAKING ABOUT PEACE, ABOUT JUSTICE.
>> YES.
MALALA, I CAN'T THINK ABOUT A BETTER SPOKESPERSON FOR THIS ISSUE AND YOUR BRAVERY AND CONTINUED FIGHT FOR THIS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT MISSION EDUCATING WOMEN, EDUCATING GIRLS, GIVING THEM THE RIGHTS THEY DESERVE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM TODAY.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND FREEDOM REMAINS ALSO ELUSIVE FOR THE MANY HOSTAGES STILL HELD IN GAZA BY HAMAS.
SOME ARE FROM THE MUSIC FESTIVAL WHERE AN EVENT DEDICATED TO PEACE AND LOVE BECAME THE SCENE OF A MASSACRE BY MILITANTS ON OCTOBER 7th.
NOW AN EXHIBITION PRESENTS THE REMAINS OF THAT DAY.
A SURVIVOR OF THAT ATTACK IS ALSO ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE FESTIVAL AND HAS HELPED PRODUCE THIS EXHIBITION.
IN THE WAKE OF PROTESTS THIS WEEK OUTSIDE THE EXHIBIT INCLUDING PEOPLE CALLING FOR IT, HE GAVE ME A TOUR AND EXPLAINED THE IMPORTANCE OF REMEMBERING.
>> ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PARTS OF THIS EXHIBIT ARE JUST THE BELONGINGS THAT NO ONE CAME TO CLAIM FROM HATS AND BAGS, AS YOU SEE HERE, SOCCER BALLS, WATER BOTTLES TO CLOTHING ITEMS.
AND THEN ULTIMATELY THE SHOES.
I THINK FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, IT'S VERY REMINISCENT OF WHAT THEY SEE AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM AND JUST IT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE SCOPE OF WHAT WAS LOST THAT DAY.
HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT?
>> WELL, EVERYTHING THAT YOU SEE HERE FROM ALL THE BELONGINGS AND THE TENTS AND THE CHAIRS AND WITH THE HELP OF THE POLICE, WE MANAGED TO GET ALL OF THESE BELONGINGS.
AND WHEN YOU SEE THE SHOES, IT'S CLEAR.
IT'S REMINDING US EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO US 100 YEARS AGO AT THE HOLOCAUST.
AND PEOPLE WERE RUNNING AWAY AND LEFT EVERYTHING BEHIND, EVEN THE SHOES.
AND I WAS ONE OF THE LAST PEOPLE TO BE IN THIS AREA.
AND WE SAW THE TENTS BROKEN AND WE SAW THEIR BELONGINGS AND BAGS.
I WAS ASKING MYSELF HOW COULD SOMEONE RUN AWAY WITHOUT THEIR BAG?
BUT WHEN TERRORISTS ARE SHOOTING AT YOU, YOU JUST LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND.
>> HOW MANY OF THE SURVIVORS HAVE BEEN HERE?
>> WE HAD OVER 50 OF THE SURVIVORS COMING HERE AND BEING PART OF THE TEAM AND TELLING THE STORY.
>> AND YOU REALLY ENCOMPASS A MULTISENSORY FEELING AND EXHIBIT HERE.
>> THIS IS EXACTLY THE FEELING THAT WE WANTED TO GIVE EVERYONE THAT GOES THROUGH THIS JOURNEY, THE FEEL AND THE SMELL.
AND WE ALSO EXPLAIN EVERYONE THAT IS ENTERING THIS EXHIBITION, IT IS NOT LIKE A MUSEUM WHERE YOU CANNOT TOUCH ANYTHING.
YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TOUCH THE TENTS AND THEN THE BELONGINGS TO GET THE SENSE OF -- OF WHAT WE WENT THROUGH.
>> AND THIS IS THE WALL HONORING ALL THE VICTIMS.
>> YEAH.
>> HOW MANY IN TOTAL?
>> 401, INCLUDING THE SECURITY GUARDS.
I KNOW TOO MANY FACES HERE.
THIS WAS A REALLY GOOD FRIEND OF MINE.
>> AND I KNOW, WHERE WAS HE?
I JUST SAW HIM.
THIS IS A REAL HERO.
>> HE'S A HERO.
HIS PARENTS WERE ALSO HERE IN THE FIRST TWO WEEKS.
>> HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY?
PHYSICALLY.
>> WELL, PHYSICALLY IT'S GETTING BETTER EVERY DAY.
I HAVE BEEN WORKING REALLY HARD ON RECOVERING.
I WAS SHOT IN BOTH OF MY LEGS.
AND MY RIGHT LEG WAS PARALYZED FOR A FEW WEEKS.
MY MISSION WAS ALWAYS LIKE TO GET BETTER AS FAST AS I CAN BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER WAS BORN FOUR WEEKS AFTER.
>> YOU WERE ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE NOVA FESTIVAL.
YOU WERE THERE ON OCTOBER 7th.
WE'RE SADLY OVER 350 PARTY GOERS, CONCERT GOERS, MUSIC ATTENDEES LOST THEIR LIVES OR WERE SLAUGHTERED.
YOU ARE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES TO BE ALIVE.
WALK US THROUGH THAT DAY.
>> WELL, 6:29 IS WHEN IT STARTED.
AND I REMEMBER THE FIRST MOMENT WE WERE LOOKING AT THE SKY, AND IT WAS LIKE HUNDREDS OF ROCKETS.
AND THE FIRST FEELING WAS, OKAY, I WAS STANDING NEXT TO ME WAS ANOTHER PRODUCER STANDING NEXT TO ME.
AND WE WERE LOOKING AT EACH OTHER.
AND WE DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S HAPPENING, THAT IT'S LIKE THIS FEELING OF HOPE THAT, OKAY, WE HAVE THE IRON DOME.
UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN YOU LIVE IN ISRAEL, YOU KNOW ROCKETS.
AND I'M TELLING HIM, WE HAVE IRON DOME, NO?
THEY WILL NOT SHUT US DOWN.
>> YOU WANTED THE CONCERT TO STILL GO ON.
YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE SCOPE AND THE MAGNITUDE OF THE ATTACK.
>> WE HAD NO IDEA.
WE HAD NO IDEA.
AROUND 8:00 IN THE MORNING, THIS IS WHEN -- THIS IS WHEN, YEAH, THIS IS WHEN THE FIRST TIME WE UNDERSTOOD, OKAY, IT'S REAL.
WE SAW THEM COMING WITH THE PICKUP TRUCKS.
>> THE HAMAS TERRORISTS, YEAH.
>> AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'RE SURROUNDING US AND THEY CAME WITH THE PICKUP TRUCKS AND HEAVY MACHINE GUNS.
AND THEN THEY START SHOOTING INTO THE CROWD.
THE BULLETS ARE HITTING NEXT TO US, AND YOU CAN -- YOU CAN HEAR THEM.
YOU CAN FEEL THEM GOING NEXT TO YOUR HEAD.
AND, SO, THIS IS THE FIRST MOMENT WHERE WE SAID, OKAY, THIS IS REAL.
>> HOW LONG AFTER THE ROCKETS STARTED WERE YOU SHOT?
HOW MANY HOURS LATER?
>> I WAS SHOT AT AROUND A LITTLE BIT BEFORE 10:00 IN THE MORNING, SO IT WAS ABOUT THREE AND A HALF HOURS.
>> AND HOW LONG UNTIL YOU WERE RESCUED?
>> ANOTHER FOUR HOURS.
AFTER I GOT SHOT, WE MANAGED TO -- I DON'T KNOW HOW, BUT WE MANAGED TO ESCAPE THE TERRORISTS THREE TIMES BECAUSE THEY SHOT US AND THEN THEY SHOT US AGAIN.
>> AND THIS EXHIBIT NOW, WHICH HAS EXTENDED ITS STAY TWICE IN NEW YORK CITY WAS INITIALLY LITERALLY A LOST AND FOUND FOR THOSE SURVIVORS, FOR THOSE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LOVED ONES TO COME AND CLAIM THEIR CLOTHING, THEIR BELONGINGS.
HOW DID THAT EVOLVE INTO WHAT IT IS TODAY?
>> WE RECREATED THE FESTIVAL, THE MAIN STAGE OF THE FESTIVAL IN TEL AVIV.
THE DEAL WAS FOR THE MEMORIAL.
AND IT EVOLVED TO, AGAIN, FOR THE MEMORIAL.
AND ONCE WE OPENED THE DOORS IN TEL AVIV, WE UNDERSTOOD IF AFTER A FEW DAYS THAT IT'S NOT ONLY FOR THE MEMORIAL.
WE HAVE SUCH A STRONG TOOL IN OUR HANDS TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT HAPPENED.
THERE IS SO MUCH DENIAL ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND SO MUCH HATE.
>> DID THAT DENIAL AND HATE FOR MUSIC LOVERS WHO WERE SIMPLY COMING TO A PEACEFUL CONCERT, DID THAT -- DID THAT SURPRISE YOU?
>> YES, YES.
IT SURPRISES ME BECAUSE A MUSIC FESTIVAL, THE DANCE FLOOR IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAFEST PLACE ON EARTH.
IT IS THE PLACE WITH SO MUCH JOY.
AND EVERYONE THAT COMES THERE CAN BE WHOEVER THEY WANT TO BE.
IT IS A PLACE OF LOVE AND FREEDOM AND PEACE.
AND WE WERE DISAPPOINTED THAT WE DIDN'T GET THE SUPPORT OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY, OF EVEN THE -- WE ARE PART OF THE GLOBAL TRANS MUSIC COMMUNITY.
AND EVEN FROM THE MAJOR TRANS MUSIC FESTIVALS, THEY DIDN'T SUPPORT US.
AND IT IS DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE THIS EXHIBITION, THIS FESTIVAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION OR POLITICS.
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT NO MATTER WHERE YOU -- WHEN YOU ARE ON THE DANCE FLOOR AND WE LISTEN TO THE SAME MUSIC, WE ARE THE SAME.
>> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT SILENCE EXISTS, THAT LACK OF SUPPORT?
>> I WISH I COULD ANSWER THIS.
I WISH I HAD AN ANSWER FOR THIS.
>> EARLIER THIS WEEK, THERE WERE MASS PROTESTS RIGHT OUTSIDE THIS EXHIBIT HERE ON WALL STREET.
SOME OF JUST THE UNADULTERATED ANTI-SEMITISM WAS QUITE SHOCKING.
PEOPLE WERE CHANTING ISRAEL GO TO HELL.
IN ONE VIDEO, A MAN DECLARES, I WISH HITLER WAS STILL HERE.
HE WOULD HAVE WIPED YOU JEWISH PEOPLE ALL OUT.
SOMETHING A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN OUT AGAINST.
THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY CALLED IT DESPICABLE.
WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT?
>> I'M NOT SURPRISED THEY CAME HERE TO DEMONSTRATE BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HERE IN NEW YORK FOR THE PAST TWO MONTHS.
I HEAR THE NEWS AND SEE THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND COLLEGES AND WHAT'S GOING ON ALL OVER THIS UNITED STATES, AND THERE IS SO MUCH LACK OF EDUCATION AND -- AND -- AND I FEEL -- SOMETIMES I FEEL SORRY FOR THEM BECAUSE WHEN YOU ASK SOMEONE A QUESTION, WHERE IS ISRAEL, THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE ISRAEL IS.
BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN TALKING TO SOME PROTESTERS BEFORE.
THERE WERE A GROUP OF FIVE OR A GROUP OF TWO IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.
WE APPROACHED THEM AND TOLD THEM, LISTEN, COME AND LOOK FOR YOURSELF, COME LOOK INSIDE AT WHAT YOU ARE PROTESTING AGAINST.
AND THERE IS NO INTEREST OF COMMUNICATION FROM THEIR SIDE.
AND -- AND IT BREAKS MY HEART THAT THERE IS SO MUCH HATE OUT THERE BECAUSE WE ARE EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.
I SAY WE ARE THE FESTIVAL PRODUCERS AND THE OVER AND OVER FOUNDERS, BUT ALSO AS AN ISRAELI AND AS A JEW, WE DON'T HATE.
WE DON'T WANT THIS HATE.
WE DON'T HATE BACK.
AND -- >> WE'RE NOW OVER EIGHT MONTHS INTO THIS HORRIFIC WAR.
THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH TRAGEDY AND INNOCENT LIFE LOST.
OBVIOUSLY IN ISRAEL AND SUBSEQUENTLY IN GAZA AMONGST CIVILIANS THERE.
I'M JUST WONDERING FOR YOU AS SOMEONE WHO EMBRACES PEACE, HOW HAVE THE PAST EIGHT MONTHS BEEN FOR YOU?
>> WELL, WE'RE DEALING WITH SO MUCH IN THE LAST EIGHT MONTHS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
AND I ALMOST GOT MURDERED.
WE FOCUS ON THE GOOD.
WE FOCUS ON THE LIGHT.
IT IS NOT EASY TO LIVE IN ISRAEL.
IT IS NOT EASY THAT YOU ARE HEARING THE NEWS EVERY FEW DAYS.
MOST SOLDIERS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED OR PALESTINIANS THAT DIED OUT OF THE CONSEQUENCES.
AND THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.
AND, WELL, WE ARE NOT POLITICIANS OR ANYTHING, BUT IT'S EASY.
GIVE BACK THE HOSTAGES, AND IT WILL BE OVER.
>> FOUR OF THEM, AS YOU KNOW, WERE THANKFULLY RESCUED ALIVE THIS PAST WEEKEND.
AND THEY WERE NOVA MUSIC FANS.
THEY WERE ATTENDING THE NOVA MUSIC FESTIVAL.
AND, YET, YOU ALSO HEAR FROM TOP MILITARY OFFICIALS THAT THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN REPLICATE THESE TYPES OF HOSTAGE RESCUES.
HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR YOU THAT AN END TO THIS WAR COME, THAT A CEASE-FIRE DEAL BE REACHED?
>> WELL, I CAN YOU LAST SATURDAY WHEN WE GOT THE NEWS OF THE FOUR HOSTAGES, WELL, I WAS SURPRISED THAT THE FEELING THAT WENT THROUGH MY BODY.
AND I WAS, LIKE THE WHOLE COUNTRY WAS CRYING AND SO EMOTIONAL AND SO HAPPY THAT THEY CAME BACK.
AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE TALKS, WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH IN THE PAST EIGHT MONTHS.
IT'S UNTHINKABLE.
AND, OF COURSE, WE WANT THE WAR AND THE CEASE-FIRE TO HAPPEN AS FAST AND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
IT HELPS NO ONE, THIS WAR.
>> CAN'T PUT TO WORDS THE EMOTIONS YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WALK-THROUGH THIS.
YOU REALLY REPLICATED THAT NIGHT AT THE FESTIVAL.
IT IS REALLY BREATHTAKING AND SOME OF THE MOST HORRIFIC WAYS IMAGINABLE.
AND, FINALLY, YOU END UP HERE IN WHAT YOU CALL THE HEALING ROOM.
WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO END THIS TOUR ON A POSITIVE NOTE?
>> IT'S BECAUSE THIS IS PART OF OUR JOURNEY.
AND THE EXHIBITION IS TELLING OUR STORY.
IT'S FROM THE LIGHT TO THE DARKNESS AND THEN TO THE LIGHT AGAIN.
AND THIS IS WHAT THIS HEALING ROOM IS ALL ABOUT.
AND THE DAY AFTER, LIKE I MENTIONED, WE OPEN OUR HEALING FACILITY.
AND SINCE THEN, WE OPEN THE FOUNDATION.
AND THAT IS DEALING WITH THE SURVIVORS, WITH THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS AND -- AND THIS BECAME OUR PURPOSE IN LIFE RIGHT NOW.
AND WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO HEAL OUR COMMUNITY AND THE SENTENCE.
WE WILL DANCE AGAIN.
I PROMISE YOU THAT WE WILL DANCE AGAIN.
>> WE SHOULD NOTE THE EXHIBITION HAS NOW BEEN EXTENDED UNTIL JUNE 22nd IN NEW YORK AND IS GOING TO LOS ANGELES NEXT.
>>> WELL, WE TURN TO INDIA NOW WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER IS COMING TO TERMS WITH HIS SHOCK ELECTION RESULT, HAVING LOST HIS MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT.
A RIVAL FOR A DECADE, HE'S BEEN FORCED INTO A COALITION WITH REGIONAL PARTIES OPPOSED TO THE CASTE SYSTEM THAT HAS FOR CENTURIES ALLOWED FOR DISCRIMINATION.
KNOWN AS UNTOUCHABLES, THE LOWEST AND MOST OPPRESSED DECIDED MODI HAD NOT DONE ENOUGH TO EASE THEIR POVERTY-STRICKEN LIVES.
TO UNDERSTAND JUST HOW BAD THINGS ARE FOR THEM, WE TURN TO CHRISTIAN'S REPORT FROM 25 YEARS AGO, WHEN THE SEEDS OF THIS POLITICAL AWAKENING WERE SEWN.
A WARNING, SOME OF THIS REPORT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO WATCH.
>> SOMETIMES THE SMALLEST DETAIL CAN REVEAL THE WHOLE PICTURE.
THESE UNTOUCHABLE VILLAGES ARE TAKING THEIR SHOES OFF.
NOT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO, BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.
THEY'RE ABOUT TO PASS THEIR UPPER CASTE NEIGHBORS, SITTING HERE IN THE SHADE.
IT IS A DAILY RITUAL OF PETTY HUMILIATION.
THE UNTOUCHABLES CAN ONLY WEAR THEIR SHOES AGAIN WHEN THEY REACH THEIR OWN PART OF TOWN.
WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALL TAKING OFF YOUR SHOES AND PUTTING THEM BACK ON AGAIN?
>> IF WE DON'T TAKE OUR SHOES OFF, WE WILL BE FIRED FROM OUR JOBS.
WE'D LIKE TO STAND UP TO THEM, BUT WE KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A CHANCE.
>> HAVE YOU EVER BEEN PUNISHED FOR ANYTHING HERE?
>> THEY HAVE PUNISHED US SEVERAL TIMES.
WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FEET TWO OR THREE TIMES.
>> YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FEET?
>> WE HAVE TO LIE ON THE GROUND AND BEG FORGIVENESS.
>> OH, MY GOODNESS.
>> AND THE DISCRIMINATION CONTINUES AT PRAYER.
UNTOUCHABLES AREN'T ALLOWED TO ENTER THE HINDU TEMPLE IN THIS VILLAGE, SO THE PRIEST BLESSES THEM OUTSIDE.
IN TEA HOUSES ALL OVER INDIA, UNTOUCHABLES HAVE TO DRINK FROM SEPARATE GLASSES.
AND THEY HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL SOMEONE COMES TO SERVE THEM OUTSIDE.
EVEN ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER IS DETERMINED ACCORDING TO CASTE.
UNTOUCHABLES CAN'T USE THIS PUBLIC WELL BECAUSE EVEN THEIR TOUCH WOULD POLLUTE THE WATER, SAYS THIS UPPER CASTE VILLAGER.
>> THESE CUSTOMS HAVE BEEN PRACTICED FOREVER.
AND IF THE GOVERNMENT PASSED NEW LAWS AGAINST IT, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.
AND I PERSONAL LY DON'T BELIEVE IT SHOULD.
>> THIS IS WHERE AN UNTOUCHABLE WOMAN WAS FORCED TO GET HER WATER, A MUDDY POND POLLUTED BY ANIMAL FECES.
HER ENCOUNTER WITH A PIG PROVED JUST HOW DIRTY THIS WATER IS.
DO A LOT OF PEOPLE GET SICK FROM DRINKING THE BAD WATER?
>> YES.
AND WHEN OUR CHILDREN BECAME SICK, THE DOCTORS BLAMED US, SAYING YOU PEOPLE ARE UNCLEAN.
>> AFTER ENDURING YEARS OF THIS KIND OF DISCRIMINATION, SHE AND HER FRIENDS TOOK UP THE FIGHT.
IT BEGAN WITH A SMALL ACT OF DEFIANCE.
ONE DAY, THEY DECIDED TO TAKE CLEAN WATER FROM THE PUBLIC WELL.
BUT THEY WERE STOPPED BY INFURIATED UPPER CASTE VILLAGERS AND EVEN WORSE THEIR OWN HUSBANDS WERE TOO AFRAID TO SUPPORT THEIR CAUSE.
>> ALL THE WOMEN IN THE VILLAGE, WE DECIDED THAT IF OUR MEN DIDN'T HELP US GET CLEAN WATER, WE WOULDN'T COOK FOR THEM.
SO FOUR DAYS LATER, THEY JOINED OUR FIGHT.
>> SHE AND HER FRIENDS CREATED SUCH AN UPROAR THAT EVENTUALLY THE UPPER CASTE IN THIS VILLAGE WERE FORCED TO BACK DOWN.
>> NOW WE HAVE CLEAN WATER, AND WATER IS LIFE.
♪ >> THE CASTE SYSTEM IS AS OLD AS THE STONES THAT BUILD THIS TEMPLE.
INDIA'S SEGREGATION IS CEMENTED IN NEARLY 3,000 YEARS OF RELIGION, NOT LAW.
>> IT IS ONE OF THE MOST COMPLICATED, SOPHISTICATED SYSTEMS OF SOCIAL HIERARCHY AND OPPRESSION THAT HUMAN BEINGS HAVE EVER DEVISED.
>> THIS PROFESSOR TEACHES POLITICS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF LONDON.
HE'S THE AUTHOR OF AN ACCLAIMED BOOK ON CONTEMPORARY INDIA AND THE COMPLEX LEGACY OF THE CASTE SYSTEM.
IT IS A SYSTEM THAT RANKS EVERY HINDU FROM THE HIGHEST TO THE LOWEST ACCORDING TO THE WORK THEY AND THEIR CASTE PERFORM.
>> PURITY IS AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FACET OF RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE USE OF FIRE, WHICH IS VERY COMMON IN HINDU RITUALS OR THE USE OF WATER.
THERE IS A VERY STRONG SENSE OF CERTAIN OBJECTS, CERTAIN THINGS BEING TABOO, THAT YOU DON'T COME INTO CONTACT WITH THEM.
>> FOR INSTANCE, THE DEAD.
TRADITIONALLY, IT'S THE UNTOUCHABLES WHO PREPARE THE CORPSES FOR CREMATION.
>> THEY WERE THOSE CASTES THAT PERFORMED THE WORK THAT NO ONE ELSE IN SOCIETY WOULD DO, SUCH AS DEALING WITH THE BODIES OF THE DEAD, ET CETERA.
THIS WAS SEEN AS WORK THAT WAS IMPURE.
>> THE UNTOUCHABLES ARE CONSIDERED SO UNCLEAN THAT TRADITIONALLY, NOT EVEN THEIR SHADOWS WERE SUPPOSED TO DEFILE THESE TEMPLES.
AND TODAY THEY ARE STILL RELEGATED TO THE VERY WORST THAT LIFE HAS TO OFFER.
LIKE MARIANAMA.
SHE HAS BEEN USING HER BARE HANDS TO CLEAN PUBLIC TOILETS FOR THE PAST 19 YEARS.
>> THEY LOOK DOWN AT ME, AND IT HURTS MY SOUL.
>> HER FAMILY HAS BEEN ASSIGNED THIS FILTHY JOB FOR GENERATIONS.
AND FOR GENERATIONS, IT'S MADE THEM PHYSICALLY ILL.
IN BIG CITIES, THEY MAY ESCAPE THE ABUSES THEY ENDURED IN THE SMALL VILLAGES, BUT OFTEN THEIR ONLY CHOICE WILL BE TO SETTLE IN SLUMS WHERE NO ONE ELSE WOULD EVEN THINK OF LIVING.
HENRY IS A LOCAL HUMAN RIGHTS WORKER.
>> OH, GOOD LORD.
IS THIS THE TOILET RIVER?
>> YOU SEE THE MAN WALKING ACROSS IT?
>> YEAH.
HE'S WALKING BASICALLY THROUGH AN OPEN SEWER.
>> OPEN SEWER.
>> KIDS ARE PLAYING IN THIS SEWER.
>> THAT'S NORMAL.
THAT'S NORMAL.
THAT'S NORMAL HERE.
>> THAT'S NORMAL FOR AN UNTOUCHABLE?
>> YES.
AND THESE ARE THE SAN TOIITARY WORKERS OF THE TOWN.
FOR THE PEOPLE THAT CLEAN THE LATRINES AND THINGS.
>> NOW, THAT -- THAT IS TRULY DISGUSTING, THE LATRINE BUSINESS.
HOW PEOPLE CAN ACCEPT TO CLEAN PUBLIC TOILETS WITH THEIR HANDS IS BEYOND ME.
>> AND INCREASINGLY, INDIA'S 200 MILLION UNTOUCHABLES ARE RESISTING, THROUGH THE POWER OF THE BALLOT AND POLITICAL PROTEST.
AND IT IS CHANGING THE FACE OF INDIA.
>> CASTE IS A FORM OF SOCIAL IMPRISONMENT, IS BEGINNING TO BREAK DOWN, I THINK.
IT'S BEGINNING TO BREAK DOWN.
PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO ASSERT THEIR RIGHTS.
THEY ARE BEGINNING TO SAY, WELL, LOOK, CONSTITUTIONALLY, THIS IS ILLEG ILLEGITIMATE.
THESE ARE MY RIGHTS AS AN INDIAN CITIZEN.
♪ >> THEY ARE RIGHTS THAT WERE ENSHRINED IN INDIA'S CONSTITUTION, WHICH BANNED DISCRIMINATION AGAINST UNTOUCHABLES.
PROGRESS HAS BEEN DIFFICULT, BUT NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, AN UNTOUCHABLE HAS MANAGED THROUGH HIS OWN EFFORTS TO BECOME PRESIDENT OF INDIA.
THOUGH, THE OFFICE IS LARGELY SYMBOLIC.
BUT IT'S THE LOCAL UNTOUCHABLE LEADERS LIKE THIS DOCTOR WHO ARE REALLY SHAKING UP THE SYSTEM, BY BUILDING A POLITICAL MOVEMENT ON CENTURIES OF PENT-UP ANGER.
IS INDIA A DEMOCRACY FOR ALL?
>> NO.
IT IS A FAKE DEMOCRACY.
WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR SELF-RESPECTS.
>> SOME LOCAL OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN KILLED.
ARE YOU NOT AFRAID?
>> WE WERE TOLD THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE READY FOR THIS FIGHT.
>> ALMOST EVERY TIME UNTOUCHABLES ASSERT THEIR RIGHTS, IT PROVOKES VIOLENCE IN THE CITIES AND ESPECIALLY IN THE COUNTRYSIDE WHERE UPPER CASTE LANDLORDS STILL REIGN OVER THEIR UNTOUCHABLE NEIGHBORS.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THE VILLAGE OF BARTE ONE NIGHT.
MORE THAN 200 UPPER CASTE MEN ARMED WITH GUNS AND KNIVES ATTACKED THIS VILLAGE.
THEY WENT FROM HUT TO HUT, KILLING ANYONE THEY COULD FIND, EVEN CHILDREN.
AND ALL THESE VILLAGERS HAD BEEN ASKING FOR WAS WHAT THEY CONSIDERED A FAIR WAGE.
$1 WORTH OF RICE A DAY FOR THEIR WORK IN THE FIELDS.
THIS IS WHAT THEY GOT FOR THEIR TROUBLE, UNSPEAKABLE HORROR.
THE BODIES OF 58 VILLAGERS HAPHAZARDLY SPRAWLED WHERE THEIR KILLERS FOUND THEM.
WHOLE FAMILIES WERE MURDERED, INCLUDING HER SON AND HIS WIFE.
ONLY HER GRANDSON SURVIVED, HIDDEN IN HIS DEAD MOTHER'S DRESS.
>> THERE WAS NO REASON TO KILL MY SON.
HE NEVER ARGUED WITH ANYONE.
LIKE ALL OF US, HE JUST WORKED IN THE FIELDS FOR HIS DAILY WAGE.
>> A PITTANCE OF A WAGE PAID BY THE LANDLORDS WHO OWN THESE FIELDS AND WHO ARE NOW ACCUSED OF LEADING THE SLAUGHTER.
THE UPPER CASTE VILLAGE PRIEST.
>> WE NEVER START THE VIOLENCE.
IT'S THE UNTOUCHABLES WHO PICK THE LIGHT.
AND THE LANDLORDS JUST RETALIATE.
>> SO IN THIS PART OF INDIA, UNTOUCHABLES ARE ARMING THEMSELVES.
ONLY WOMEN ARE ALLOWED IN THIS MILITIA.
THEY ARE BEING TRAINED TO SHOOT BECAUSE THEY ARE MOST AT RISK.
>> NOBODY ELSE WILL PROTECT US.
THAT'S WHY I CARRY MY OWN GUN.
RECENTLY, A YOUNG GIRL WAS KIDNAPPED AND RAPED BY THE LAND LANDLORDS.
THERE IS MORE VIOLENCE EVERY DAY, AND THE POLICE DON'T HELP US.
>> THIS SISTER IS TRYING TO HELP, BUT SHE USES THE LAW.
SHE'S AN ATTORNEY AND A CATHOLIC NUN WHO CHOOSES TO LIVE WITH AND DEFEND THE VERY LOWEST CASTES.
WHEN YOU SEE UNTOUCHABLES, MEN OR WOMEN, CLEANING HUMAN EXCRIMINATE WITH THEIR HANDS, BEING FORCED TO DRINK FROM SEPARATE CUPS IN TEAROOMS, HAVING TO TAKE OFF THEIR SHOES WHEN THEY WALK PASSED AN UPPER CASTE, IS THERE A SENSE OF OUTRAGE?
>> WELL, SURE.
IT IS REALLY A CURSE ON HUMANITY.
THE WHOLE CASTE SYSTEM.
>> IS THERE ANY ESCAPE?
>> IMPOSSIBLE.
SEE, IN INDIA, EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR CASTE.
>> SO NO MATTER HOW WELL YOU DO IN LIFE, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED AN UNTOUCHABLE?
>> YES.
>> UNCLEAN?
>> YES.
>> AND LESS THAN HUMAN.
>> RIGHT.
>> THE UNTOUCHABLES' BURDEN HAS BEEN CARRIED FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION.
NOW THE TOILET CLEANER PLEADS THAT IT NOT BE PASSED ON ANY FURTHER.
>> ALL I'M BEGGING FOR IS THAT MY CHILDREN DON'T INHERIT THIS JOB.
IT SHOULD END WITH ME.
>> IT SHOULD END WITH ME.
AN IMPORTANT REFLECTION BACK THERE FROM CHRISTIAN.
WELL, NOW DECADES LATER, STILL FIGHTING FOR SELF-RESPECT.
THE VOTE HELPED CHANGE THE FATE OF INDIA.
TURNING TO OUR NEXT STORY, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT REVERTING BACK TO A LIFESTYLE OF THE LATE 18th CENTURY?
WELL, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST, A.J.
JACOBS DID, AS HE DOCUMENTS IN HIS NEW BOOK THE YEAR OF LIVING CONSTITUTIONALLY.
ONE MAN'S HUMBLE QUEST TO FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION'S ORIGINAL MEETING.
HE JOINS US TO DISCUSS WHAT HE LEARNED FROM HIS EXPERIENCE.
>> A.J.
JACOBS, THANKS FOR JOINING US.
YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED THE YEAR OF LIVING CONSTITUTIONALLY.
ONE MAN'S HUMBLE QUEST TO FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTIONAL'S ORIGINAL MEANING.
WHY DO THIS?
WHY NOW?
>> WELL, FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME AND GOOD MARROW.
I DECIDED TO DO THIS BECAUSE I WANTED TO EXPLORE WHAT THE CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY SAYS AND HOW SHOULD WE INTERPRET IT.
AND AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW IN THE PAST COUPLE YEARS, THE SUPREME COURT HAS EMBRACED ON THE CALL ORIGINALISM, WHICH SAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, WHEN INTERPRETING CONSTITUTION, IS WHAT DID IT MEAN WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN 230 YEARS AGO?
>> OKAY.
HOW DOES AN AUTHOR GET THEMSELVES INTO THE MIND SET OF THE WRITERS OF THE CONSTITUTION IN THE 1700s?
>> WELL, I DID EVERYTHING FROM -- TO EXPRESS MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
I BOAR A MUSKET AROUND NEW YORK CITY, AN 18th CENTURY MUSKET.
AND I GOT SOME STRANGE LOOKS.
>> WASN'T THERE A LAW THAT WENT UP TO THE COURTS ON WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS LEGAL FOR YOU TO BE CARRYING A FIREARM?
>> IT IS A GRAY AREA.
IT IS A BIT OF A GRAY AREA.
LUCKILY I WASN'T ARRESTED.
IN ADDITION TO THE MUSKET, I WANTED TO EXPRESS MY FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, SO I GOT OFF SOCIAL MEDIA, AND I WROTE PAMPHLETS WITH A QUILL PEN.
THE IDEA WAS TO GO BACK TO THE ORIGINS AND EXPRESS MY RIGHTS THE WAY THAT THEY WERE WRITTEN USING THE TECHNOLOGY AND MIND SET OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS.
AND IT WAS FASCINATING.
IT WAS AN ENTERTAINING AND FASCINATING YEAR, BUT IT HOPE IT HAD SERIOUS POINTS AS WELL.
>> TELL ME, WERE YOU A CONSTITUTIONAL NERD BEFORE THIS?
WERE YOU TRYING TO KIND OF LAY OUT AND PROVE A POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>> WELL, I -- I WAS ACTUALLY EMBARRASSING BY IGNORANT OF THE CONSTITUTION.
I LEARNED THAT 60% OF AMERICANS HAVE NEVER READ THE CONSTITUTION FROM START TO FINISH.
AND I WAS ONE OF THOSE 60%.
BUT IT HAS SUCH A MASSIVE IMPACT ON HOW WE LIVE OUR LIVES WITH THE SUPREME COURT RULING ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND GAY RIGHTS AND GUN POLICY.
I THOUGHT, I NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS CONSTITUTION.
SO I TALKED TO DOZENS OF ACTUAL CONSTITUTIONAL NERDS AND LAW SCHOLARS FROM ALL OVER THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
BUT I ALSO WANTED TO LIVE IT.
THAT'S WHAT I DID FOR A PREVIOUS BOOK THAT YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT A LONG TIME AGO, CALLED "THE YEAR OF LIVING BIBLICALLY."
I FOUND IT HELPS ME TO UNDERSTAND AND GET IN THE MIND SET.
SO THAT WAS PART OF THE GOAL AS WELL.
>> OKAY.
SO WHAT WERE, I GUESS, THE PARTS OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT LEAPT OUT AT YOU IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH THEY HAD CHANGED IN HOW WE LIVE WITH THEM TODAY VERSUS HOW THE AUTHORS INTENDED THEM TO BE AT THE TIME?
>> SUCH A GREAT QUESTION.
AND THAT'S SORT OF THE HEART OF THE BOOK.
AND IT WAS A SHOCKINGLY DIFFERENT TIME.
THE PAST IS A FOREIGN COUNTRY.
AND I'LL GIVE YOU JUST TWO QUICK EXAMPLES, THE FIRST AND THE SECOND AMENDMENT.
SO THE FIRST AMENDMENT BACK THEN WAS MUCH MORE CONSTRAINED.
I LOVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT, FREE SPEECH.
I'M A BIG FAN.
BUT I'M A FAN OF MODERN FREE SPEECH.
BACK AT THE FOUNDING, IT WASN'T QUITE STALINIST RUSSIA, BUT THERE WERE LAWS.
SEDITION WAS MUCH MORE CRACKED DOWN UPON.
WE DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT ORIGINAL MEANING OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT BECAUSE THE FIRST AMENDMENT WOULD NOT ALLOW FOR POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS ON LIMITED POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO CANDIDATES.
SO THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF ONE THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT.
AND THE SECOND AMENDMENT, THE TECHNOLOGY WAS SO VASTLY DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, I WENT AND I SHOT A MUSKET, AND IT IS 15 STEPS TO SHOOT A MUSKET.
IT IS -- YOU GOT TO TAKE OUT THE RAMROD, POUR IN THE GUNPOWDER, PUT BACK THE RAMROD.
IT IS LIKE BUILDING A DESK FROM IKEA.
IT TAKES A WHILE.
SO IT IS A VASTLY DIFFERENT MACHINE.
THE QUESTION IS SHOULD THERE BE REGULATIONS THAT ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT IS SO DIFFERENT?
AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING -- A MUSKET WOULD BE VERY HARD TO DO A MASS SHOOTING WITH A MUSKET BECAUSE IT TAKES SO LONG TO LOAD.
>> THIS IDEA OF UPDATING WITH THE TIMES, WE SEE THAT TENSION BEING PLAYED OUT PRETTY MUCH EVERY TIME THERE IS A VERDICT FROM THE SUPREME COURT.
WE HAVE PEOPLE ARGUING ON THE LOSING SIDE, THIS IS NOT WHAT THE CONSTITUTION WAS FOR.
>> RIGHT.
AND IT IS -- IT CONTINUES TO BE AT THE HEART OF THE CONTROVERSY.
AND THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH SHOULD YOU UPDATE?
EVEN ORIGINALISTS WOULD SAY, FOR INSTANCE, THAT THE LAW -- THE RULE AGAINST UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES.
ORIGINALLY THAT MEANT THE CONSTABLE BANGING DOWN THE DOOR TO SEARCH YOUR PAPERS.
BUT NOW THEY SAY YES IT DOES APPLY TO THE INTERNET AND iPHONES.
BUT IT IS INCONSISTENT.
WHEN DO YOU UPDATE AND WHEN DO YOU NOT?
SO A HARD CORE ORIGINALIST LIKE CLARENCE THOMAS WOULD SAY THAT THE 14th AMENDMENT, WHICH GUARANTEES EQUAL PROTECTION AND DUE PROCESS, WHEN THAT WAS WRITTEN AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, IT DID NOT APPLY TO GAY PEOPLE OR GAY MARRIAGE.
SO HE WOULD ARGUE THAT DOES NOT COVER THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.
WHEREAS THOSE ON THE OTHER SIDE, OFTEN CALLED LIVING CONSTITUTIONALISTS SAY YOU HAVE TO UPDATE THE MORALS WITH THE TIMES.
OVER TIME MORALS CHANGE AND GAY PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROTECTED BY THE 14th AMENDMENT.
>> ONE OF THE CONCERNS YOU HAVE WITH THE SIDE THAT SAYS GO AHEAD AND INTERPRET THIS DOCUMENT AND KEEP EVOLVING IT IS WHERE DOES THAT SLIDE STOP?
THE EXPERTS YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO, HOW DO THEY FIGURE OUT HOW TO MODIFY THAT LEVEL OF CHANGE SO IT'S STILL CONSISTENT TO WHAT SHOULD BE THE VALUES OF OUR COUNTRY.
>> YEAH.
IT IS -- THAT IS A HUGE ISSUE AND A TOUGH ONE.
AND I DON'T HAVE A SIMPLE ANSWER.
ONE -- ONE IDEA IS THAT THE FOUNDERS WOULD BE SHOCKED THAT THESE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HAVE SO MUCH POWER.
THAT WAS NOT THEIR VISION.
MOST OF THEM, THEY THOUGHT THAT THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD WEIGH IN ON JUDICIAL REVIEW, BUT NOT WHAT'S CALLED JUDICIAL SUPREMACY WHERE THEY HAVE THE FINAL WORD.
IN THE PAST, THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS WOULD ALSO WEIGH IN ON WHAT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.
SO IN THAT CASE, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THIS EXTREME POWER WITH JUST THESE NINE UNELECTED JUSTICES.
AND I LIKE THAT.
ANOTHER ISSUE IS THAT IT'S SO HARD TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.
THE FOUNDERS DID NOT ANTICIPATE IT WOULD BE THIS HARD TO CHANGE.
THEY WANTED IT -- IT'S HARD TO CHANGE, BUT THEY DIDN'T SEE THIS STATIC TWO PARTY SYSTEM COMING, WHEN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET 60% OR 66% OF THE CONGRESS TO AGREE ON THE COLOR OF THE SKY.
THE KEY IS PULURALISM, WHICH ISA VERY FOUNDING FATHERS' IDEA.
BALANCE THE MEANING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES, WITH THE LEGITIMACY OF THE SUPREME COURT AND THEIR REPUTATION.
YOU HAVE ALL THESE FACTORS WHEN YOU MAKE A DECISION.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DID IN YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL YEAR OF LIFE, YOU HAVE GOT THE -- YOU EXERCISED YOUR RIGHT TO REDRESS THE PETITION.
WHAT WERE YOU PETITIONS FOR?
>> WELL, THIS WAS INTERESTING.
PETITIONS, FIRST OF ALL, FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT, THEY'RE OFTEN OVERLOOKED.
I THOUGHT I NEED TO DO IT THE OLD WAY.
I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT THE SLACKTSLACK WAY ON THE INTERNET.
I GOT OUT A BIG ROLL OF PAPER AND HAD PEOPLE SIGN WITH A QUILL PEN.
NOW, MY PETITION WAS BECAUSE I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.
BOTH DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS HAVE WAY TOO MUCH POWER.
THE FOUNDERS WOULD BE SHOCKED BY THE WAR POWERS AND TRADE POWERS.
SO I WENT BACK TO AN IDEA FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS.
DURING THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, WHEN SOMEONE BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF A SINGLE PRESIDENT, SEVERAL OF THE DELEGATES SAID, ARE YOU JESTING?
THAT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA.
WE JUST FOUGHT TO GET RID OF A KING.
WHY WOULD WE WANT A SINGLE PRESIDENT?
LET'S HAVE THREE PRESIDENTS.
LET'S HAVE 12 PRESIDENTS.
BEN FRANKLIN WANTED A COUNCIL OF 12 PRESIDENTS.
I THOUGHT, THIS IS AN INTERESTING IDEA.
SO I BROUGHT A PETITION TO CONGRESS, TO SENATOR RON LIDEN IN WASHINGTON.
I WAS TRYING MY HAT, MY COAT, SHOES, BUCKLES AND EVERYTHING.
HE SAID HE WOULD CONSIDER IT, WHICH I THINK MEANT HE WOULD CONSIDER IT FOR FIVE SECONDS.
BUT HE DID AGREE WITH MY THESIS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TOO POWERFUL.
WE HAVE IN THE FUTURE POSSIBLE PRESIDENTS WHO ARE GOING TO BE MORE AUTHORITARIAN.
SO WE DO NEED TO CONSTRAIN THE PRESIDENT.
I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THREE PRESIDENTS.
I DON'T KNOW IF BIDEN, TRUMP AND RFK JR. COWORKING IN THE OVAL OFFICE IS A GREAT IDEA.
BUT THERE ARE WAYS TO CONSTRAIN THE PRESIDENT THAT WE NEED TO LOOK INTO AND GIVE POWER BACK TO THE CONGRESS, WHICH IS WHAT THE FOUNDERS WANTED.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU DID TAKE A COUPLE OF OPPORTUNITIES HERE TO TRY AND MAKE THIS EXPLORATION A LITTLE POSITIVE AND FUN.
TELL US ABOUT ELECTION CAKES.
>> WELL, THIS WAS MY FAVORITE PART OF THE BOOK.
IT IS A THROUGH LINE OF THE BOOK.
WE DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THE 18th CENTURY VOTING, OF COURSE.
IT WAS SEXIST AND RACIST AND -- BUT THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF 18th CENTURY LIFE THAT ARE WORTH LOOKING AT AGAIN.
AND ONE OF THEM IS THE IDEA THAT ELECTIONS OR THE PRIVILEGED FEW WHO WERE ALLOWED TO VOTE WERE FESTIVE.
THEY WERE THIS NEW RIGHT THAT WAS AWE INSPIRED.
SO IT WAS -- THERE WERE PARADES.
THERE WAS MUSIC.
THERE WAS A LOT OF RUM PUNCH.
IT WASN'T QUITE COACHELLA OR BURNING MAN, BUT IT WAS EXCITING THIS ELECTION DAY.
AND IT REMINDED PEOPLE OF THE AWESOME POWER OF DEMOCRACY.
SO I THOUGHT, THIS IS LOVELY.
LET'S RE -- I'LL TRY TO RESTART THIS APPRECIATION OF ELECTION DAY AS SOMETHING FESTIVE.
AND ONE OF THE TRADITIONS WAS ELECTION CAKE.
PEOPLE WOULD BAKE ELECTION CAKES, SOMETIMES HUGE, ONE RECIPE CALLS FOR 14 POUNDS OF BUTTER AND 10 POUNDS OF SUGAR.
SO I DIDN'T DO THAT.
BUT I MADE A BIG ELECTION CAKE.
AND I WENT ON FACEBOOK, WHICH I KNOW IS NOT 18th CENTURY.
ALTHOUGH, IT IS ONE OF THE OLDER PLATFORMS.
AND I GOT PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER AMERICA TO CAKE ELECTION CAKES AND BRING THEM TO THE POLLS AND GIVE THEM OUT TO REMIND PEOPLE OUR CATCH PHRASE WAS DEMOCRACY WAS SWEET.
AND I LOVE THAT BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH AN UNRELENTINGLY DECADENT TIME IN POLITICS TO HAVE THIS ONE MOMENT.
THERE ARE EVENTS AND STUDIES THAT SAY HAVING A FESTIVE ELECTION DAY INCREASES VOTER TURNOUT.
AUSTRALIA HAS SOMETHING CALLED THE DEMOCRACY SAUSAGE, WHERE THEY HAVE BIG BARBECUES.
SO I LOVE THE ELECTION CAKE.
IT'S NOT THE END.
WE ALSO HAVE TO FIX GERRYMANDERING AND VOTER SUPPRESSION.
BUT LET'S START WITH ELECTION CAKES AND GET PEOPLE EXCITED AGAIN ABOUT THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
I'M DOING IT AGAIN IN NOVEMBER.
>> WHAT DID THIS PROJECT TEACH YOU ABOUT YOURSELF, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE HAD SO MANY DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS ON THIS PROGRAM ABOUT DIGITAL DETOXING AND SLOWING DOWN.
I IMAGINE IT HAS TO DO SOMETHING TO YOUR BRAIN WHEN YOU ARE WRITING IN SUCH A SLOW FORMAT WITH A QUILL AND INK.
>> EXACTLY.
THAT WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE PARTS, IS I WROTE MUCH OF THE BOOK WITH A QUILL.
AND WHAT I FOUND IS IT CHANGED THE WAY I THOUGHT, WHICH WAS FASCINATING BECAUSE THERE WERE NO PINGS AND DINGS OR TEMPTATIONS FROM THE INTERNET.
AND I COULD ACTUALLY FOCUS.
AND I THINK THAT -- I DON'T THINK EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO BACK TO QUILLS, BUT I THINK WRITING AND THINKING OFFLINE IS SO CRUCIAL.
AND IT ALLOWED ME TO, I THINK, SEE THE WORLD IN A MORE SUBTLE WAY.
AND ONE OF THE BIG -- THE OTHER BIG TAKE AWAY FOR ME WAS THAT IT ALLOWED ME TO SEE THE OTHER SIDE A LITTLE MORE.
I THINK WE ARE NOWADAYS SO STUCK IN OUR OPINIONS, SO UNWILLING TO LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE AND SEE THE OTHER SIDE.
THIS IS NOT A PATRIOTIC WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD.
THE FOUNDERS WERE VERY COGNITIVELY FLEXIBLE.
BEN FRANKLIN SAID THAT THE OLDER HE GETS, THE LESS CERTAIN HE IS OF HIS OPINIONS.
>> AND WHAT'S THE RIPPLE EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU, YOUR FAMILY THAT HAS TO LIVE WITH A GUY WHO'S, I DON'T KNOW, WRITING WITH A QUILL AND DOING, YOU KNOW, THINGS BY CANDLE LIGHT AND WAKING UP EARLY IN THE MORNING TRYING TO BE BACK IN THE 1700s?
HOW DO YOUR KIDS FEEL ABOUT THAT?
>> THEY ARE SPLIT.
THERE IS -- ONE OF THEM ACTUALLY LIKES IT.
THE OTHER TWO ARE SO EMBARRASSED, THEY WALKED 40 FEET IN FRONT OF ME.
MY WIFE, PART OF IT SHE LIKES.
SHE LIKES HISTORY.
SHE DID NOT LIKE THE SMELL OF BEEF CANDLES, WHICH SMELLED LIKE ROTTEN MEATLOAF IN HER OPINION.
ALSO, IF YOU ARE FOLLOWING 18th CENTURY LAW, IT IS VERY SEXIST.
MARRIED WOMEN, FOR INSTANCE, WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SIGN CONTRACTS.
MY WIFE OWNS AN EVENT BUSINESS WHERE SHE SIGNS SEVERAL CONTRACTS A DAY.
I SAID, WELL, WHILE I'M DOING THIS EXPERIMENT, MAYBE I SHOULD TAKE OVER THE SIGNS.
AT FIRST SHE SAID, GREAT, I HATE SIGNING THESE CONTRACTS.
I WAS SO BAD AT IT, SHE FIRED ME AFTER AN HOUR.
SO THAT DID NOT WORK OUT FOR EITHER OF US.
>> YOU POINT OUT THAT THIS IS THE OLDEST CONSTITUTION AROUND.
SO I WONDER WHAT SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF, I GUESS, JUST SURVEYING THE LANDSCAPE AND SEEING WHAT'S OUT THERE, WHAT COULD BE BETTER, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE CAN DO RIGHT, WHAT CAN WE IMPROVE ON 2.0, 3.0.
>> RIGHT.
I LOVE THAT.
I THINK IT IS FASCINATING BECAUSE OURS WAS THE FIRST MODERN CONSTITUTION.
AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF DATA OF WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T.
AND I THINK PART -- SOME AMERICANS THINK THAT IT'S ALMOST UNPATRIOTIC TO LOOK AT OTHER DEMOCRACIES AND HOW THEY HAVE STRUCTURED IT AND WHAT WORKS FOR THEM AND WHAT DOESN'T.
OTHERS LIKE JUSTICE BRIAR, WHO RETIRED, HE WAS VERY INTERESTED IN HOW FAR DEMOCRACIES WORKED.
AND I THINK I THINK AGREE WITH JUSTICE BRIAR.
LET'S LOOK AT WHAT IS WORKING AND WHAT IS NOT.
ONE THING THAT I DON'T THINK IS WORKING FOR US IS THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.
AND I DON'T THINK THE FOUNDERS WANTED A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.
BUT YOU LOOK AT MANY EUROPEAN DEMOCRACIES, AND THEY HAVE SIX OR EIGHT PARTIES.
THERE SEEMS TO BE A GOLDILOCKSS ZONE OF 4 TO 8 PARTIES IS THE BEST BECAUSE, YES, NOW WE HAVE SUCH POLARIZATION THAT IT'S SO HARD TO GET ANYTHING PASSED.
WE WERE THE FIRST, AND WE COULD BE PROUD OF THAT.
BUT WE'RE ALSO AT A DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW.
WE DIDN'T HAVE DATA ON WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T.
>> ARE YOU CONCERNED FOR OUR DEMOCRACY IN 2024 TODAY AS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION AFTER YOU HAVE ENGAGED IN THIS YEAR-LONG EXPERIMENT OF LIVING CONSTITUTIONALLY?
>> WELL, YES.
BUT I'M MORE OPTISTIC THAN I WAS WHEN I STARTED.
PART OF THE HOME PROJECT WAS TO FIGURE OUT, CAN WE SAVE DEMOCRACY?
BECAUSE IT DOES SEEM ENDANGERED AROUND THE WORLD.
AND SEVERAL THINGS GAVE ME HOPE.
I WILL JUST GIVE YOU TWO OF THEM.
ONE IS JUST READING ABOUT THE HISTORY.
THE -- THE FOUNDERS FACED UNBELIEVABLE ODDS THAT THEY WERE GOING AGAINST THE STRONGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD, THE BRITISH AND THAT THEY SOMEHOW WERE ABLE TO MAKE A BREAK AND BE INDEPENDENT.
THEY'RE NOT INSURMOUNTABLE.
THE SECOND PART IS THAT WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF, YOU CAN SEE THE PROGRESS IN THE AMENDMENTS.
SO BLACK PEOPLE GOT THE VOTE.
WOMEN GOT THE VOTE.
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE GOT THE VOTE.
18-YEAR-OLDS GOT THE VOTE.
SO WE ARE -- THE ARK DOES POINT TOWARDS JUSTICE, AND THERE IS BACKSLIDING, AND THERE IS -- IT IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE.
BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT IF WE ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES, DEMOCRACY WON'T SAVE ITSELF.
BUT I DO BELIEVE IF WE ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND MAKE SOME OF THESE REFORMS THAT DEMOCRACY CAN CONTINUE TO THRIVE.
>> A.J.
JACOBS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
IT WAS A DELIGHT.
>> THAT IS IT FOR YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.
♪