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♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> I THINK ZELENSKYY IS MAYBE THE GREATEST SALESMAN OF ANY POLITICIAN THAT'S EVER LIVED.
EVERY TIME HE COMES TO OUR COUNTRY, HE WALKS AWAY WITH $60 BILLION.
>> WHAT WOULD FOREIGN POLICY LOOK LIKE IN A SECOND TRUMP TERM?
I ASK HIS FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER ROBERT O'BRIEN.
>>> THEN -- >> THIS IS A SERIOUS PLAN, CARE THOUGHT THROUGH.
IT'S NOT ABOUT PULLING RABBITS OUT OF THE HAT.
IT'S NOT ABOUT PANTOMIME.
>> UK ELECTIONS ARE SET TO USHER IN A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT.
HOW WOULD LABOR HANDLE INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS.
SENIOR PARTY MEMBER LISA NANDY JOINS ME.
>>> PLUS -- >> THIS DEMONSTRATION IS MORE THAN A PROTEST.
IT IS A DEMO.
IT SHOWS HOW DEMOCRACY CAN GIVE OFF AS A SOCIAL TECHNOLOGY.
>> USING TECHNOLOGY FOR GOOD.
TAIWAN'S FORMER DIGITAL AFFAIRS MINISTER AUDREY TANG TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW TO REVOLUTIONIZE HOW GOVERNMENTS INTERACT WITH TECHNOLOGY.
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THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 24 YEARS, VLADIMIR PUTIN IS IN PYONGYANG, WHERE NORTH KOREAN LEADER KIM JONG-UN IS BACKING HIS ILLEGAL INVASION OF UKRAINE.
SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW HIM PREPARING A LARGE PARADE IN PUTIN'S HONOR, A SIGN OF THE DEEPENING ALLIANCE THAT'S RAISING CONCERN IN WASHINGTON.
FIVE YEARS AGO, DONALD TRUMP BECAME THE FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT TO MEET A NORTH KOREAN LEADER WHEN HE BRIEFLY STEPPED ACROSS THE DMZ.
WITH AMERICAN ELECTIONS FIVE MONTHS AWAY, PEOPLE AT HOME AND ABROAD ARE STARTING TO CONSIDER WHAT A SECOND TRUMP TERM COULD BRING.
IN A NEW ARTICLE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, TRUMP'S FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER ROBERT O'BRIEN ARGUES HIS CASE FOR A POLICY OF PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH.
O'BRIEN SERVED AS TRUMP'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER FROM 2019 TO 2021, AND HE'S JOINING THE PROGRAM FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW.
MR. O'BRIEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I THINK YOU'RE IN INDIANA.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> SO LET'S START WITH THE NEWS THAT PUTIN IS HEADED TO PYONGYANG.
OBVIOUSLY, PRESIDENT TRUMP MET WITH KIM JONG-UN, BUT GIVEN TODAY'S SITUATION, WHAT WOULD A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT TRUMP MAKE OF SUCH A VISIT?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, IT'S OBVIOUSLY VERY CONCERNING BECAUSE THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF ARTILLERY SHELLS, AND THEY'RE PROVIDING THOSE TO THE RUSSIANS, WHO ARE KILLING UKRAINIANS WITH THEM.
THEY'RE OUR PARTNERS, AND WE'RE SOLIDLY BEHIND UKRAINE.
IT'S A VERY CONCERNING SITUATION.
SO IT'S INTERESTING MEETING BECAUSE RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA HAVE NOT BEEN PARTICULARLY CLOSE RECENTLY, BUT I THINK BOTH OF THEM ARE TRYING TO ALSO DISTANCE THEMSELVES A LITTLE BIT FROM BEIJING.
IT'S AN ODD ALLIANCE, BUT IT'S OBVIOUSLY TO THE GREAT DETRIMENT OF OUR FRIENDS IN UKRAINE.
>> SO THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE I WANTED TO STICK SORT OF WITH NORTH KOREA TO UNDERSTAND WHAT, YOU KNOW, A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IF IT COMES IN, WOULD BRING, YOU KNOW, IN TRYING TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE VERY, VERY TRICKY ADVERSARIES.
SO I JUST WANT TO READ FROM YOUR OP-ED.
BASICALLY, YOU SAID ABOUT BIDEN CHINA SUMMITS.
THIS IS A POLICY OF PAGEANTRY OVER SUBSTANCE, MEETINGS AND SUMMITS ARE NOT ACHOOECHLTS.
BUT WHEN I SPOKE TO THE SOUTH KOREAN FOREIGN MINISTER, SHE SAID THE TRUMP-KIM SUMMITS WERE VERY SIMILAR, THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF PAGEANTRY, BUT VERY LITTLE IMPACT.
I SPOKE TO HER EARLIER THIS YEAR.
TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT SHE TOLD ME.
>> THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF A PATTERN THAT BEGAN AFTER THE DEBACLE OF THE 2019 HANOI SUMMIT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND NORTH KOREA.
AFTER THAT, THEY IMMEDIATELY WENT BACK TO LAUNCHING THE MISSILES, AND THAT HAS PICKED UP SPEED, MORE FREQUENCY IN THE RECENT YEARS.
THIS IS THE TYPICAL TRUMP LEADERSHIP ON THESE ISSUES.
WILL, BUT VERY LITTLE FOLLOW-UP AND SUPPORT FROM THE WORKING LEVELS.
>> SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
BECAUSE THIS COULD COME UP AGAIN, AND THERE WAS HOPE THAT THERE COULD BE A RESOLUTION OF A LOT OF PROBLEMS WHEN TRUMP MET KIM JONG-UN.
BUT NO FOLLOW-UP, EVEN AT THE WORKING LEVEL.
DOES THAT TROUBLE YOU?
>> WELL, YEAH, I WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU.
THE FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER ON THAT FRONT.
KEEP IN MIND, CHRISTIANE, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, PRESIDENT OBAMA TOLD HIM THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE THE MOST DIFFICULT FOREIGN POLICY QUESTION HE FACED.
NORTH KOREA WAS BUSY TESTING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
THEY WERE LAUNCHING AND TESTING LONG-RANGE ICBMs AND MISSILES THAT COULD REACH HAWAII, MAYBE THE WEST COAST OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND SO PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK A PIECE -- A STRENGTH APPROACH THROUGH NORTH KOREA.
WE MOVED TO CARRY OUR BATTLE GROUP INTO THE YELLOW SEA AND PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE NORTH KOREANS.
AND WHEN THEY REALIZED THEY WEREN'T GOING TO GET AWAY WITH IT, THEY CHANGED TACTS.
AND THEN WE HAD SOME CREDIBLE DIPLOMACY WITH THEM.
KEEP IN MIND, THEY PROMISED TO DENUCLEARIZE.
THEY PROMISED TO END THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM ON THE PENINSULA.
NOW THAT DIDN'T END UP HAPPENING, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD TO WALK AWAY FROM THE HANOI SUMMIT WHEN KIM JONG-UN TRIED TO GO BACK ON THAT DEAL.
SO WE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH AFTER THAT.
BUT KEEP IN MIND THERE WAS NO NUCLEAR TESTING DURING THE ENTIRE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE WE SHOWED STRENGTH COUPLED WITH SOME TOUGH DIPLOMACY.
YOU KNOW, NORTH KOREA IS A VERY TOUGH NUT TO CRACK.
IT'S BEDEVILLED REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT ADMINISTRATIONS FOR YEARS.
BUT I THINK WE HAD A GOOD RUN, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
NO NUCLEAR TESTS AND THE POSSIBILITY OF MISSILE TESTS UNLIKE WHAT THE FOREIGN MINISTER WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE.
>> EXCEPT NOW THEY HAVE CONTINUED THEIR MILITARY TESTING, THEIR MILITARY THREATS, AND THEY ARE NOW HUGE SUPPORTER, SOME SAY THAT PUTIN WOULD NOT DO VERY WELL WITHOUT NORTH KOREA OR IRAN.
SO THIS SORT OF AXIS HAS BUILT.
BUT LET'S CARRY ON TO OTHER AREAS, AND THAT WOULD BE LET'S TALK ABOUT UKRAINE AND THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE.
SO YOU'VE SAID THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS PROVIDED SIGNIFICANT MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE, BUT HAS OFTEN DRAGGED ITS FEET IN SENDING KYIV THE KINDS OF WEAPONS IT NEEDS TO SUCCEED.
SO, YES, AND MANY PEOPLE HAVE CRITICIZED THE FACT THAT THIS FOOT-DRAGGING HAS HAPPENED, AND THAT ACTUALLY, IT'S SHOWN UP ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND RUSSIA HAS MADE SOME INROADS IN KHARKIV AND THAT KIND OF AREA.
BUT AS YOU KNOW, MANY PUT THE BLAME RIGHT AT THE FEET OF THE REPUBLICAN TRUMP ALLIES IN CONGRESS.
SPEAKER JOHNSON AND ALL THE OTHERS, WHO BASICALLY DIDN'T DO IT BECAUSE THEY WERE INFLUENCED BY TRUMP.
SO, AGAIN, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
BECAUSE HE HAD INFLUENCE THAT STOPPED THE WEAPONS FOR SEVEN MONTHS AND CREATED A VERY BAD SITUATION FOR UKRAINE ON THE FIELD.
>> CHRISTIANE, I THINK THE FIRST THING YOU TO UNDERSTAND IS IT'S THE FAILURE OF U.S.
LEADERSHIP THAT CAUSED PUTIN TO INVADE UKRAINE.
HE WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED IN AFGHANISTAN, THE CHAOTIC WITHDRAWAL AND RETREAT OF AFGHANISTAN.
HE HEARD PRESIDENT BIDEN LOUD AND CLEAR WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THAT A MINOR INCURSION MIGHT BE OKAY.
HE THOUGHT HE'D HAVE A FREE REIN LIKE HE DID IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WHEN HE TOOK CRIMEA THE FIRST TIME AND LARGE PARTS OF DONBAS, AND THE U.S.
GAVE NO LETHAL AID.
WE SENT GATORADE AND MREs AND NIGHT VISION GOGGLES.
WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, I CAN TELL YOU IT WAS TOUGH BECAUSE THE PENTAGON WAS STILL IN THE OBAMA PLAN.
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SEND LETHAL AID TO UKRAINE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO PROVOKE PUTIN.
IT WAS DONALD TRUMP THAT SENT THOSE 600 JAVELIN MISSILES, WHICH THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF UKRAINE AND THE AMBASSADOR RECENTLY THANKED HIM FOR.
AND THAT THREE-PRONGED ARMORED AXIS ATTACK THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE OUTSET OF THE INVASION AND WAS STOPPED BY THE JAVELINS, THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR THE LETHAL AID THAT TRUMP SENT, AND ALSO THE TRAINING WE SENT.
IT WASN'T JUST THE JAVELINS, IT WAS SPECIAL FORCES OPERATORS TO TRAIN THE UKRAINIANS.
KEEP IN MIND THE LETHAL AID, THE ORIGINAL LETHAL AID THE UKRANIANS GOT CAME FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THE RUSSIAN ATTACK WAS STOPPED AN BLUNTED BECAUSE OF TRUMP.
BUT THEY FELT EMBOLDENED TO INVADE UKRAINE BECAUSE THERE WASN'T STRONG AMERICAN LEADERSHIP.
AND THIS GOES BACK TO THE ADMINISTRATION.
WHY DID RUSSIA FEEL IT HAD A FREE REIGN?
BECAUSE OF CONVERSATION.
THE FIRST STEP WAS THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE.
LET OUR ADVERSARIES AND FRIENDS KNOW WE WERE NO LONGER PURSUING A POLICY OF ENERGY DOMINANCE, BUT HE APPROVED THE PIPELINE WHICH WE HAD STOPPED IN THE RUSSIA.
RUSSIA READ THAT AS A GREEN LIGHT TO GO INTO UKRAINE.
THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND DID NOT HAPPEN UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
>> OKAY.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS, AS YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE INVASION AND THE WHOLE OF THE WEST WAS BASICALLY BROADCASTING LOUD AND CLEAR TO RUSSIA DON'T DO IT.
WE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
WE CAN SEE IT.
DON'T DO IT.
AND THEN AS YOU KNOW, THEY GATHERED THIS PRETTY BIG COALITION AND STRENGTHENED NATO AND HAVE HELPED PUSH RUSSIA BACK IN SOME OF THE AREAS THAT YOU ARE MENTIONING.
BUT, YES, THE JAVELINS, THE ET CETERA.
SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, SHOULD IT HAPPEN, WOULD KEEP SENDING WEAPONS TO MAKE SURE UKRAINE WINS?
BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S THE TRUMP INFLUENCE ON MAGA REPUBLICANS THAT IS BLAMED FOR THE DELAY IN THE WEAPONS.
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN?
>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK WE'D SEND WEAPONS, CHRISTIANE, JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE PAST.
BUT I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM IS AMERICA CAN'T CARE MORE ABOUT EUROPEAN SECURITY THAN THE EUROPEANS.
AND THE EUROPEANS NEED TO PLAY THEIR PART.
NOW THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SUPPLY WEAPONS, BUT THEY CAN SUPPLY MONEY.
THE EU ECONOMY IS AS BIG AS THE AMERICAN ECONOMY, AS YOU KNOW.
AND THEY HAVEN'T STEPPED UP.
THEY'VE BEEN DOING BETTER LATELY, BUT AT THE OUTSET OF THE INVASION, IT WAS ALL AN AMERICAN PROBLEM, AND THE EUROPEANS DIDN'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED.
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO PROVOKE THE RUSSIANS.
THE EUROPEANS HAVE TO GET INVOLVED.
I'VE CALLED ON THIS, CHRISTIANE, THEY NEED TO LET UKRAINIAN INTO THE EU THAT WOULD SEND A STRONG MESSAGE TO VLADIMIR PUTIN THAT EUROPE CONSIDERS UKRAINE PART OF THE WEST, PART OF EUROPE, AND LOOK, THERE IS A BUREAUCRATIC DELAY.
I KNOW IT TAKES TEN YEARS TO GET INTO THE EU.
BUT IF UKRAINE IS THAT IMPORTANT AND IT'S THAT IMPORTANT TO THE WEST, ABL AND I BELIEVE IT IS, BY THE WAY, AND THAT'S WHY I CALLED ON THE EUROPEANS, TO OPEN UP THE EU, WAIVE THE BARRIERS TO ENTRY AND GET UKRAINE IN THE EU RIGHT AWAY.
THAT'S NOT A MILITARY ALLIANCE.
IT SHOULDN'T PROVOKE PUTIN TOO MUCH, BUT IT SENDS A VERY STRONG MESSAGE THAT THE WEST CARES THAT WOULD START THE FLOW OF AID, OF TRADE, OF RECONSTRUCTION MONEY, REDEVELOPMENT MONEY.
SO IT'S TIME FOR THE EUROPEANS TO STEP UP.
AND I THINK WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SEE THE EUROPEANS STEPPING UP, THEY'LL BE ALL IN ON UKRAINE AID.
WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE AID BEFORE WAS IT WASN'T JUST THAT WE WERE TOLD IT WAS LETHAL AID.
THEN WE FOUND OUT WE WERE PAYING FOR TEACHERS AND RETIREMENTS FOR GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND THAT SORT OF THING.
THAT'S THE SORT OF THINGS THE EUROPEANS NEED TO STEP UP ON.
AND AMERICA NEEDS TO BE THE DEMOCRACY AND STICK TO THE LETHAL AID.
>> AS YOU KNOW, THE U.S. OBVIOUSLY DOES SUPPLY THE BIGGEST AMOUNT OF WEAPONS, BUT EUROPE IS SUPPLYING THE BIGGEST AMOUNT OF MONEY, OF FINANCIAL AID.
AND -- >> YOU'RE RIGHT, CHRISTIANE.
THAT'S RECENT, KEEP IN MIND.
>> YEAH, BUT THAT'S BEEN THE PATTERN SINCE THIS FULL-SCALE INVASION.
AND THEY ARE DOING WHAT YOU SAY.
THEY ARE OPENING A PATHWAY TO EU MEMBERSHIP.
BUT HERE IS THE OTHER QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, A LOT HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT WHAT TRUMP MIGHT DO, SAY, ET CETERA.
HE HAS ALREADY SAID THAT HE HAS A BRILLIANT PLAN TO END THE WAR IN 24 HOURS, ET CETERA.
DO YOU BELIEVE -- BECAUSE SOME OF THE THINGS HE SAID LEADS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD ENCOURAGE UKRAINE TO ESSENTIALLY SUE FOR PEACE, WHICH OTHERS, INCLUDING UKRAINE, REJECT, THINKING IT'S SURRENDER OR CAPITULATION.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS A WAY TO END THIS WAR?
AND I GUESS HOW IS PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH SERVED BY ESSENTIALLY, IF IT DID COME TO THAT, FREEZING THE CURRENT LINES OR GIVING INTO PUTIN'S LATEST DEMANDS, HOW WOULD THAT SERVE PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH?
>> WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NEVER RECOMMENDED, I'VE NEVER HEARD HIM SAY THAT WE SHOULD GIVE INTO PUTIN'S DEMANDS.
NO ONE IS ON BOARD WITH THAT.
BUT ALL WARS END AROUND A TABLE.
AND WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT.
EVEN IN UNCONDITIONABLE SURRENDER SITUATIONS, WORLD WAR II ENDED AROUND A TABLE ON THE BATTLESHIP MISSOURI AT ADMIRAL DONNIS' TABLE WHEN THE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS WERE SIGNED.
WE'RE GOING HAVE TO GET TO THE TABLE.
RIGHT NOW THE RUSSIANS HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO COME TO THE TABLE.
VLADIMIR PUTIN THINKS HE IS WINNING THE WAR.
HE THINKS TIME SON HIS SIDE.
AND I THINK THE BIGGEST REASON, CHRISTIANE, IS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T PUT FULL SANCTIONS ON THE RUSSIAN CENTRAL BANK.
RUSSIA IS STILL SELLING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF OIL AND GAS TO THE WEST, MORE TO CHINA AND INDIA.
AND WIE'RE NOT SANCTIONING THOS SALES.
THEY'RE PRODUCING 12 MILLION, 13 MILLION BARRELS A DAY AT $100 A BARREL WHEN IT USED TO BE 40, 50.
PUTIN IS MAKING PERSONAL MONEY OFF THIS WAR.
IT'S FUNGIBLE.
I GET THAT.
YOU'LL NEVER CUT IT ALL OFF.
BUT IF YOU COULD DRIVE IT DOWN FROM 13 MILLION BARRELS A DAY OR 12 MILLION BARREL A DAY TO 7 OR 8 MILLION BARRELS A DAY AND PUT A DENT IN THE ECONOMY, AND LARRY KUDLOW, THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC ADVISER, AND I CALLED FOR THIS BEFORE THE INVASION, IF YOU REALLY SANCTION THE OIL SALES HARD AND PUT MAXIMUM PRESSURE ON THIS, AND THIS GOES FOR NORTH KOREA AND IRAN AS WELL, THEN YOU CAN DRIVE PUTIN TO THE TABLE.
IT'S UP TO THE UKRAINIANS TO NEGOTIATE THE PEACE.
WE SHOULDN'T TELL THEM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WHAT TO DO.
THAT SHOULD BE UP TO THE UKRAINIANS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO FOR PEACE IN THIS COUNTRY.
WE SHOULD NEVER REPEAT MUNICH WHERE WE TELL THE CHSLOVAKIANS.
>> PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH IMPLIES THAT IN THIS CASE, LET'S SAY, UKRAINE WOULD HAVE THE STRENGTH TO FORCE, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF REASONABLE NEGOTIATION AROUND THE PEACE TABLE.
DO YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP -- YOU CRITICIZED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, OTHER EUROPEANS FOR NOT BEING STRONG ENOUGH AFTER 2014.
AND MANY, MANY WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.
DO YOU THINK THAT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SHOULD -- WOULD YOU RECOMMEND A LOT MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE, THE KIND IT WANTS?
A LOT MORE ANTI-AIRCRAFT AIR DEFENSES, AIRCRAFT, LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY, THE KIND OF STUFF THAT ACTUALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN THIS KIND OF WAR?
>> WELL, WE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN THAT EQUIPMENT AT THE BEGINNING.
REMEMBER, THE POLL POLS WANTED SEND THEIR MIGS TO UKRAINE AND IT WAS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT STOPPED THEM.
WE SHOULD GIVE THEM THE WEAPONS TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND FIGHT AND WIN.
THE REAL IS THE HALF MEASURES ON THE SANCTIONS.
WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BRING RUSSIA TO THE TABLE.
UKRAINE IS TOO SMALL TO EVER DEFEAT RUSSIA.
RUSSIA IS A NUCLEAR POWER.
IT'S A BIG COUNTRY, FOUR TIMES THE SIZE OF UKRAINE.
BUT IF WE PUT HEAVY-DUTY SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA, THAT MIGHT BE ENOUGH TO BRING THEM TO THE TABLE.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT TRUMP HAS IN MIND.
>> OKAY.
THEN THE QUESTION IS WHO DOES TRUMP IDENTIFY MORE WITH?
THERE IS A BIG BODY OF THOUGHT THAT HE IDENTIFIES WITH THESE STRONGMEN PEOPLE, PEOPLE LIKE PUTIN, PEOPLE LIKE XI.
LET ME JUST READ YOU, AND I'M SURE YOU'VE HEAD THIS BEFORE OR HAD IT READ TO YOU.
IN 1990, PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEN HE WAS DONALD TRUMP, GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO "PLAYBOY" MAGAZINE.
AND HE BASICALLY CRITICIZED MIKHAIL GORBACHEV, THE LEADER OF THE SOVIET UNION TODAY FOR FAILING TO HOLD THE SOVIET EMPIRE TOGETHER, NOT A STRONG ENOUGH HAND.
AND HI SIMULTANEOUSLY PRAISED THE CHINESE COMMUNIST LEADERSHIP FOR CRUSHING THE STUDENT UPRISING IN TIANANMEN SQUARE.
"THEY WERE VICIOUS, THEY WERE HORRIBLE, BUT THEY PUT IT DOWN WITH STRENGTH" IS WHAT HE SAID.
THERE IS REAL DEMOCRATIC CONCERN ABOUT THE IMPACT ON DEMOCRACY AND THE THRIVING OF AUTOCRACY AND THIS KIND OF STRONGMAN BEHAVIOR UNDER A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD STAND BY THOSE COMMENTS?
HOW CAN PEOPLE BE SURE THAT TRUMP WOULD PROTECT DEMOCRACY AGAINST THOSE KIND OF STRONGMAN THREATS THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IN YOUR NEW ARTICLE?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, WE'VE GOT FOUR YEARS TO SHOW WHY PEOPLE SHOULD TRUST DONALD TRUMP.
WE HAD NO INVASION OF UKRAINE.
WE HAD NO MASSACRE IN ISRAEL, NO INVASION IN ISRAEL.
TAIWAN WAS SAFE.
WE ENDED THE WAR AGAINST ISIS WITH A RARE VICTORY IN THAT WAR.
WE HAD PEACE DEALS IN THE MIDDLE EAST WITH THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS IN EUROPE WITH SERBIA, KOSOVO, WITH HEALING THE GULF RIFT IN THE GULF.
SO THE STRENGTH OF PRESIDENT TRUMP OF TAKING OUT BAGHDAD, OF ELIMINATING THE CALIPHATE, OF STANDING BY OUR ALLY ISRAEL, RECOGNIZING JERUSALEM AS THE CAPITAL, IT WAS UNORTHODOX, BUT FORCING THE EUROPEANS TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND PAY FOR THEIR FAIR SHARE WITH NATO AND BURDEN THE SHARE OF NATO HAS HELPED DRAMATICALLY IN THE CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.
I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TRUMP RECORD, PEOPLE CAN HAVE THEIR VARIOUS VIEWS OF DONALD TRUMP AND WHAT THEY THINK OF HIM AND HIS PERSONALITY AND THE WAY HE COMMUNICATES, BUT IT WAS AN UNRIVALED RECORD OF SUCCESS, ESPECIALLY THE LAST TWO YEARS OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
I THINK PEOPLE CAN KIND OF LOOK AT THE WORLD AS IT IS TODAY AND LOOK FOUR YEARS AGO.
IS THE WORLD BETTER OFF OR BETTER OFF FOUR YEARS AGO?
I THINK THE ANSWER IS ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND GEOPOLITICS, IT'S A PRETTY EASY ANSWER IF YOU'RE AN ISRAELI OR UKRAINIAN OR TAIWANESE.
THE CHINESE REPUBLIC OF CHINA.
THE WORLD WAS A LOT BETTER THAN IT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO TODAY, AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE FOR EUROPE AS WELL.
PEOPLE CAN EXPRESS CONCERNS AND LOOK AT OLD QUOTES AND CHERRY PICK THEM.
IF YOU WANT TO CHERRY PICK QUOTES, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS LOTS OF QUOTES TO PICK FROM OVER HIS CAREER.
I THINK BOB GATES WAS WRONG ABOUT EVERY FOREIGN POLICY CRISIS IN HIS CAREER.
I TAKE TRUMP'S RECORD AND LOOK AT THAT AND BE COMFORTED.
>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, AND I'LL JUST LIST THEM, A LOT OF THE WORLD IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HIM PULLING OUT OF THE CLIMATE ACC ACCORDS, PULLING OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, AT LEAST IT WAS AN ARMS CONTROL ACCORD AND EMPOWERING THE EXTREME RIGHT IN ISRAEL.
I JUST WONDER, I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS SOUND BITE TO YOU THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID TO RECENTLY TO AN ISRAELI NEWS STATION ABOUT THE WAR.
>> I WILL SAY ISRAEL HAS TO BE VERY CAREFUL, BECAUSE YOU'RE LOSING A LOT OF THE WORLD.
YOU'RE LOSING A LOT OF SUPPORT.
BUT YOU HAVE TO FINISH UP.
YOU HAVE TO GET THE JOB DONE.
AND YOU HAVE TO GET ON THE PEACE.
WE HAVE TO GET ON TO A NORMAL LIFE FOR ISRAEL AND FOR EVERYBODY ELSE.
>> WHAT WOULD A NORMAL LIFE LOOK LIKE?
AND ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT AFTER THE HORROR OF WHAT HAMAS DID ON OCTOBER 7th, ISRAEL IS, YOU KNOW -- ARE YOU -- DO YOU FEEL OKAY THAT THE PEOPLE WHO PRESIDENT TRUMP EMPOWERED, WHICH WERE THE SETTLERS, WHICH WERE THE CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE REALLY RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT THERE NOW KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN TERMS OF THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS AND IN GAZA?
TRUMP DIDN'T SEEM TO THINK SO.
>> I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP GAVE GREAT ADVICE, AND I AGREED WITH EVERYTHING HE SAID.
WE WANT PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
WE WANT PEACE BETWEEN THE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.
BUT THE WAY TO DO IT IS TO GET THE JOB DONE QUICKLY AND ELIMINATE HAMAS, AT LEAST THE LEADERSHIP.
I WAS HOPING THAT SINWAR WOULD SHOW THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP THAT ARAFAT DID WHEN HE LEFT BEIRUT IN '82 RAND TOOK HIS FIGHTERS AND LEFT TO SPARE BEIRUT.
BUT SINWAR AND THE HAMAS LEADERSHIP IS USING THEIR CIVILIANS AS HUMAN SHIELDS AND ACTUALLY BRAGGING TO HIS POLITICAL LEADERS IN THE GULF AND IN JOURNALIST THAT THE PALESTINIAN DEATHS ARE HELPING HAMAS.
I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THE U.S. SHOULD TAKE THE SHACKLES OFF THE IDF AND THE ISRAELIS.
THEY SHOULD FINISH THE JOB IN GAZA, AND THEN LET'S FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET TO A REAL TWO-STATE SOLUTION, HOW TO GET THE PALESTINIANS SOME STATE OF THEIR OWN, A PEACE WITH ISRAEL.
NOT A SITUATION WHERE PALESTINIANS ARE SAYING FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, AND WANT THE GENOCIDE AND THE DEATH OF EVERY JEW, BUT WANT TO LIVE SIDE BY SIDE IN A PEACEFUL EXISTENCE WITH ISRAEL.
HAMAS ISN'T THERE, BUT A LOT OF PALESTINIANS ESPECIALLY ON THE WEST BANK ARE.
THE SOONER WE GET DONE WITH THE WAR, THE SOONER WE CAN GET BACK TO THE PEACE PROCESS.
BUT HAMAS CAN'T BE ALLOWED TO STAY.
THERE IS NO PEACE WITH HAMAS.
THEY'VE MADE THAT CLEAR.
THAT'S NOT AN ISRAELI POSITION.
THAT'S A HAMAS POSITION.
THEY'VE TOLD THE HOSTAGES RELEASED, DON'T GO BACK TO YOUR KIBBUTZ, WE'LL COME BACK AND GET YOU AGAIN.
HORRIBLE.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ONE FINAL QUESTION.
A LOT HAS BEEN MADE OF EACH PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL THEM.
BUT THERE ARE CONCERNS RIGHT NOW ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STABILITY, FALLING ASLEEP IN HIS TRIAL, REPORTS FROM A RECENT CEO SUMMIT THAT HE WAS RAMBLING AND INCOHERENT.
YOU OFTEN TALK TO HIM.
YOU KNOW, WHAT IS HE LIKE?
AND WHY DO YOU THINK -- YOU TALK ABOUT REAGAN REPUBLICANISM, AND PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH.
WHY DO YOU THINK HIS FORMER GENERALS AND CABINET SECRETARIES, JIM MATTIS, JOHN BOLTON, JOHN KELLY, McMASTER, ALL THE OTHERS BASICALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU, AND THEY HAVE TURNED ON HIM AND DON'T WANT HIM AND WOULD OPPOSE HIS REELECTION?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK YOU LOOK AT JOHN RATCLIFFE AND MIKE POMPEO AND MYSELF AND RICK GRINNEL AND SENATOR RUBIO AND SENATOR COTTON HAVE ALL SAID THEY WOULD SERVE.
ARE ALL HIGH QUALITY HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL GUYS.
THE LIST YOU RAMBLED OFF AT THE BEGINNING, THEY WEREN'T PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH.
THEY WEREN'T AMERICA FIRST FOLKS.
THEY FELT THEY WERE THERE TO EDUCATE THE PRESIDENT AND PUT THEIR VERSION OF FOREIGN POLICY IN PLACE INSTEAD OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S.
ONCE THEY WERE GONE, YOU SAW THE AMAZING SUCCESS WE HAD IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, GETTING PEACE DEALS DONE.
DONALD TRUMP IS A PEACEMAKER, A DEAL MAKER, A PEACE MAKE IR.
AS FAR AS HIS ENERGY GOES, IT'S ABSURD.
I REMEMBER ONE MORNING, CHRISTIANE, HE CALLED ME AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING.
I WAS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.
HE WAS FULLY ENGAGED.
HE WAS WATCHING A NEWS SHOW AND SAW THERE WAS AN AMERICAN HOSTAGE THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN.
CALLED ME TO FIND OUT WHAT WE COULD DO ABOUT GETTING THE HOSTAGE HOME.
HAD A FULL DAY OF WORK AT THE WHITE HOUSE ALL DAY, AND THEN WE WERE GOING TO MAR-A-LAGO.
WE WENT TO A RALLY, AND I WAS AT THE RALLY UNTIL ABOUT MIDNIGHT.
>> WAS FALLING ASLEEP AGAINST THE STANCH ONIN THE ARENA, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME OUT FIRED UP.
HE WENT FROM 6:00 IN THE MORNING TO MIDNIGHT HAVING JUST CONDUCTED A TWO-HOUR RALLY AND WAS IN FIGHTING SPIRIT AND FULLY, YOU KNOW, ENGAGED.
I'M 20 YEARS YOUNGER, AND I HAD A HARD TIME KEEPING UP WITH HIM.
THE IDEA THAT HE IS NOT FIT AND STRONG AND READY TO LEAD IS KIND OF ABSURD.
ANYONE WHO WATCHES A RALLY KNOWS HOW FIRED UP HE CAN GET.
>> ROBERT O'BRIEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
>>> NOW, THERE WILL BE AN ELECTION HERE IN THE UK IN JUST OVER TWO WEEKS, AND IF THE POLLS ARE RIGHT, THE RULING CONSERVATIVE PARTY WILL FACE A TROUNCING BY THE OPPOSITION LABOR PARTY.
IF IT SUCCEEDS, LISA NANDY WILL LIKELY BE IN CHARGE OF ASPECTS OF FOREIGN POLICY LIKE INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AID.
AND SHE IS JOINING ME NOW ON SET.
LISA NANDY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE FULL-THROATED DEFENSE OF TRUMP'S POLICIES ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE.
WHICH PARTS OF IT DO YOU THINK WERE SUCCESSES AND WHICH NOT?
>> WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THAT INTERVIEW WAS THAT THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE IN TONE BETWEEN TRUMP'S FORMER ADVISER AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND THIS CONCERN, A WIDESPREAD CONCERN THAT'S REFLECTED ACROSS EUROPE AS WELL AND HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM ABOUT THE PROPORTIONALITY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA AT THE MOMENT.
I THINK THAT REFLECTS VERY MUCH THAT AMONGST THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN THE STAUNCHEST ALLIES NOT JUST OF ISRAEL, BUT OF THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THERE IS A REAL CONCERN THAT INTERNATIONAL LAW IS NOT BEING APPLIED, THAT THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES ARE FAR TOO HIGH.
AND I THINK WITH AN ELECTION HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED KINGDOM AND IN FRANCE AT THE MOMENT, IT SHOWS THAT THERE WILL BE WHOEVER IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WHOEVER IS IN DOWNING STREET AFTER THE OUTCOME OF THESE ELECTIONS, THERE WILL BE PRESSURE ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A MUCH MORE PROPORTIONATE RESPONSE TO PROTECT CIVILIAN LIVES AND TO PURSUE A CIPHER DEAL.
AND THAT CAN ONLY BE GOOD NEWS FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND FOR THE WORLD.
>> SO AS I SAID, YOU ARE A SHADOW MINISTER.
WELL, YOU'RE NOW A CABINET MINISTER OR SHADOW MINISTER, BUT YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY -- YOU'RE RUNNING FOR THE ELECTION.
SO YOU STILL HAVE THIS LEADERSHIP POSITION.
AND I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE UNICEF GLOBAL SPOKESMAN IN RAFAH, IN GAZA YESTERDAY ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.
>> WHEN I WAS IN AL AQSA HOSPITAL ON TUESDAY, CHRISTIANE, WE DEALT WITH CHILDREN MISSING LIMBS WITH HORRENDOUS BURNS CHILDREN WHO URGENTLY NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION OUTSIDE, BUT CANNOT GET IT.
IF THEY CANNOT GET IT, THEY WILL DIE.
AT THE SAME TIME, THEY'LL HAVE MORE BOMBARDMENTS TONIGHT.
CONTINUAL RESTRICTIONS AND DENIALS OF AID.
YOU HAVE A NUTRITIONAL CRISIS ON THE GROUND, LETHAL LACK OF WATER, ONE OR TWO LITERS A DAY, A SHOWER EVERY TWO WEEK.
GRANDMOTHERS AND GIRLS QUEUING UP ALL DAY FOR A SHOWER.
WE'VE HAD TWO MONTHS FOR THAT.
THE PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CAPACITY OF PEOPLE HAS BEEN SMASHED.
THEY'RE JUST HOLDING ON.
AND I MEAN JUST HOLDING ON.
>> AND YOU CAN HEAR THE DESPERATION, AND YOU SEE THE PICTURES.
IT'S REALLY A HORRIFYING DEPICTION.
AND OVER THE WEEKEND, YOU SAID THAT IF LABOR DID WIN, IT WOULD IMMEDIATELY REVIEW ARM SALES TO ISRAEL.
WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?
>> WELL, THE UK HAS VERY CLEAR CRITERIA FOR GRANTING EXPORT LICENSES.
WE DON'T GRANT THEM IN CASES WHERE THERE IS A CLEAR RISK THAT THEY CAN BE USED AGAINST A CIVILIAN POPULATION.
SO WE'VE SAID THAT WE WILL REVIEW ARMS SALES TO ISRAEL TO MAKE SURE WE CONTINUE TO SUPPLY WEAPONS THAT ALLOW ISRAEL TO DEFEND ITSELF.
DON'T FORGET THAT JUST RECENTLY THERE WAS AN IRANIAN STRIKE AGAINST ISRAEL TARGETING ISRAELI CIVILIANS, BUT THAT WE WOULD HALT THE SALE OF ARMS OR PARTS OF ARMS TO ISRAEL BEING USED AGAINST CIVILIANS IN RAFAH.
>> DO YOU THEN DISAGREE WITH THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT WHO SAID THEY DID CONDUCT A REVIEW AND THAT IT ALL -- YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL ACCORDING TO THEIR GUIDELINES?
>> WE'VE BEEN ASKING THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT TO PUBLISH THEIR OWN REVIEW AND THEIR LEGAL ADVICE THAT IT'S BASED ON FOR SEVERAL MONTHS NOW.
WE WOULD TAKE A MUCH MORE TRANSPARENT APPROACH IN GOVERNMENT.
IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE ROLE THAT BRITAIN IS PLAYING IN THE WORLD.
WE ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO DEFEND ITSELF, BUT 100,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE THIS CONFLICT BEGAN, THE MAJORITY OF THEM WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
>> 37,000.
>> AND WE CAN'T AFFORD TO ALLOW THAT TO CONTINUE.
WE'VE BEEN CALLING FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE.
IF WE ARE ELECTED IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS' TIME, WE'LL IMMEDIATELY REINSTATE FUNDING TO UNRWA, THE U.N.
REFUGEE AGENCY.
SO THERE ARE CLEAR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN OUR APPROACH AND THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT'S.
WE'VE GOT TO BRING AN END TO THE BLOODSHED IN GAZA AND IN ISRAEL.
THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE OR THE ISRAELI PEOPLE THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE TWO STATES LIVING PEACEFULLY SIDE BY SIDE.
AND IT WILL BE A TOP PRIORITY FOR A LABOR GOVERNMENT.
>> AND YOU HEARD EVEN ROBERT O'BRIEN SAYING THAT WOULD BE A PRIORITY OR SOMETHING THAT THE U.S.
UNDER A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ALSO AGREED WITH.
MOVES TO SOMEHOW A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
IN YOUR LABOR PARTY MANIFESTO, IT SAYS, QUOTE, WE'RE COMMITTED TO RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE AS A CONTRIBUTION TO A RENEWED PEACE PROCESS RESULTING IN A TWO-STATE SOLUTION WITH A SAFE AND SECURE ISRAEL ALONGSIDE A VIABLE AND SOVEREIGN PALESTINIAN STATE.
WHEN WOULD YOU PLAN TO DO THAT?
BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, IRELAND, NORWAY, SPAIN HAVE ALREADY RECOGNIZED AND TAKEN THIS STEP.
>> WELL, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE DO SO ALONGSIDE OUR ALLIES.
IT HAS FAR MORE INTERNATIONAL IMPACT IF YOU'RE ABLE TO TAKE STEPS TOGETHER TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE.
WE WOULD DO THAT AS PART OF A PEACE PROCESS, AS WE SAID IN THE MANIFESTO, AS A CONTRIBUTION TO THE PEACE PROCESS, NOT AN OUTCOME TO IT.
AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET TO A POSITION WHERE PEOPLE IN PALESTINE, ACROSS PALESTINE, WHETHER THEY'RE CURRENTLY IN GAZA OR THE WEST BANK, FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THEY'RE WORKING TOWARDS SOMETHING.
ONE OF THE MAJOR STUMBLING BLOCKS TOWARDS GETTING A CEASEFIRE AND A PEACE PROCESS BACK ON TRACK IS THE WHOLE GENERATION OF PALESTINIANS, PARTICULARLY YOUNG PALESTINIANS HAVE LOST HOPE THAT THERE IS A PROSPECT OF VIABLE PALESTINIAN STATE.
THAT'S IN LARGE PART DUE TO THE SETTLEMENT BUILDING, WHICH HAS GONE UNCHECKED AND UNRESTRAINED OVER RECENT YEARS.
THEY'VE WATCHED THE PROSPECT OF A SECOND STATE DISAPPEARING IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES.
TO GET THAT BACK ON TRACK, WE NEED TO HAVE A VIABLE PLAN FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, VIABLE ECONOMIC PLAN, AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE PALESTINE, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T HAVE TWO STATES IF YOU'RE REFUSING TO RECOGNIZE ONE OF THE PARTNERS IN IT.
>> AND SADLY, I KNOW THERE IS A NEW LABOR PARTY LEADER WHO I INTERVIEWED IN ISRAEL, AND THEY ARE WANTING TO MOVE IN A PEACE -- THEY'RE WANTING TO EVENTUALLY GET TO SOME KIND OF PEACEFUL RESOLUTION AFTER THIS WAR.
BUT, OF COURSE, THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH MOVE TO THE FAR RIGHT, TO THE EXTREME RIGHT IN ISRAEL.
JUST AS SORT OF A JUMPING OFF, HOW DID YOU REACT TO THE ELECTIONS IN EUROPE, THE MEP ELECTIONS IN EUROPE THAT REALLY BROUGHT A HUGE AMOUNT OF FAR-RIGHT PARTIES IN THE AS ASCE ASCENDANCE.
FRANCE HAS CALLED SNAP ELECTIONS.
AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK THAT'S ALL ABOUT?
>> I THINK IN TIMES OF ECONOMIC INSECURITY, IT OPENS THE DAY FOR POPULIST LEADERS WHO PREY ON PEOPLE'S FEARS.
THEY OFFER NO SOLUTIONS, BUT THEY DO STOKE PEOPLE'S SENSE OF GRIEVANCE AND ANGER.
AND IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE THAT PEOPLE TURN TO THOSE POPULIST LEADERS AT A TIME WHEN THEY FEEL THAT THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS AREN'T HELPING AND SUPPORTING THEM.
HERE IN THE UK, WE'VE SEEN THAT OVER RECENT YEARS.
AND IT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR US AS THE LABOR PARTY IN THIS ELECTION TO BE PUTTING FORWARD REAL SOLUTIONS TO PEOPLE'S LIVES THAT THEY CAN BELIEVE IN.
NOT JUST STOKING PEOPLE'S GRIEVANCES, BUT ACTUALLY SHOWING THAT A BETTER FUTURE IS ON OFFER THAN THE ONE THAT CURRENTLY PEOPLE ARE FACING.
THIS IS A GENERATION NOW WHO ARE FACING A PROSPECT OF THEIR KIDS BEING WORSE OFF THAN THEY WERE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFETIME.
AND WE'VE GOT ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.
WE WON'T BE ABLE TO DO EVERYTHING OVERNIGHT, BUT WE KNOW THAT WE CAN MAKE A START ON DAY ONE TO START TO TURN THE COUNTRY AROUND TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR PEOPLE.
IN THE END, THAT'S THE ONLY SOLUTION TO FAR-RIGHT POPULISTS IS TO FIND REAL ANSWERS TO PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE.
>> SOME COULD HAVE SAID THAT THIS TONE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BREXIT VOTE, AND SOME SAID IT WAS AN EARLY SIGN OF THE GLOBAL TREND TOWARD CONSERVATIVE NATIONALISM.
THAT WAS A POLITICAL ANALYSIS.
NOW YOU'RE RUNNING FOR REELECTION IN A PRO-BREXIT CONSISTENCY IN THE NORTH WHERE NEARLY 64% VOTED TO LEAVE BACK IN 2016.
SO HOW HAS BREXIT -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE HARDSHIP, THE ECONOMIC HARDSHIP.
HOW HAS BREXIT HELPED OR HARMED YOUR OWN CONSTITUENTS?
>> WELL, I THINK THE BREXIT DEAL THAT WE GOT HAS NOT HELPED THE SITUATION FACING MANY OF MY CONSTITUENTS AND SIMILAR INDUSTRIAL TOWNS ACROSS BRITAIN.
THE NEEDLESS TRADE BARRIERS THAT WE'VE ERECTED, THE ONGOING WAR OF WORDS WITH EUROPEAN PARTNERS, WHO SHOULD BE OUR CLOSEST FRIENDS AND ALLIES AS WE SEEK TO DEAL WITH CHALLENGES LIKE MASS MIGRATION, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND GLOBAL CONFLICT.
WORKING AS A LABOR GOVERNMENT TO REBUILD THAT AND REPAIR AND STRENGTH THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.
THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT US TO, AND THEY'LL CONTINUE TO BE IMPORTANT TO NEWS THE FUTURE AND TO REDUCE THE NEEDLESS TRADE BARRIERS.
BUT WE'RE KEEN TO DO SOMETHING ELSE WELL.
UNDERPINNING THE DESIRE TO LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS THE FEELING THAT PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER IN CHARGE OF THEIR OWN DESTINY.
THAT THE THINGS THAT MOST MATTER, THE SOCIAL FABRIC, THE GOOD JOBS THAT ENABLE YOUR KIDS TO STAY AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE TOWN THAT THEY CALL HOME AND ENABLE YOU TO KNOW YOUR GRANDCHILDREN AND PROVIDE THE SPENDING POWER THAT SUSPENDS HIGH STREETS AND PUMPS AND OFFICES, SO YOU'LL SEE RUNNING THROUGH OUR AGENDA FOR GOVERNMENT IS VERY MUCH ABOUT PUTTING PEOPLE BACK IN CHARGE OF THEIR OWN DESTINY AND HELPING THEM TO DEFEND THE THINGS THAT MATTER TO THEM.
>> IT'S REALLY NUMBERS THAT IN FEBRUARY GOLDMAN SACHS ESTIMATED THE UK REAL GDP HAS FALLEN SHORT OF SIMILAR COUNTRIES BY ABOUT 5% SINCE BREXIT.
UNDERPERFORMANCE IN TRADE, SHORTAGES IN LABOR DUE TO LOW IMMIGRATION FROM THE EU, ET CETERA.
BREXIT, ACCORDING TO THE LSE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ABOUT A THIRD OF UK FOOD PRICE INFLATION SINCE 2019.
SO WE SORT OF TALKED ABOUT THE HARDSHIPS.
BUT WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN FOR BRITAIN'S ROLE ON THE WORLD STAGE?
I DON'T JUST MEAN MILITARILY.
BUT AS A CONTRIBUTING ECONOMY AND STAYING AS A REAL FINANCIAL CENTER, FOR INSTANCE?
>> WE'VE GOT TO REPAIR SOME OF THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN NEEDLESSLY DONE OVER THE LAST 14 YEARS.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE IN BRITAIN OR IN EUROPE WANTS TO REOPEN THE QUESTION OF EU MEMBERSHIP FOR BRITAIN.
WE CAN BUILD ON THE DEAL THAT WE'VE GOT AS A FLOOR, NOT A CEILING OF WHAT CAN BE ACHIEVED AND STRENGTHEN AND DEEPEN OUR COOPERATION.
IT WILL BE IN BRITAIN'S INTEREST, BUT ALSO IN EUROPE'S INTEREST AND IN THE WORLD.
BUT THERE ARE OTHER AREAS TOO, INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, WHICH I WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IF WE'RE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO WIN IN A FEW WEEKS' TIME.
WE REALLY DID TRASH OUR REPUTATION AS A LONG-TERM RELIABLE PARTNER UNDER THE LAST LABOR GOVERNMENT.
WE PLAYED A LEADING ROLE IN HELPING THE WORLD TO SOLVE PROBLEMS LIKE GLOBAL POVERTY, REAL CREATIVITY, REAL INNOVATION FOR BRITAIN.
AND WE COULD DO SO AGAIN.
>> THE BUNT TO THAT 0.7%.
>> WE WILL DO THAT, BUT WE'LL ONLY DO IT AS WE GROW THE ECONOMY AND FISCAL CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW.
WE'RE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO PLAYING OFF A ROLE AND THROUGH BOOSTING THE STATUS OF DEVELOPMENT WITHIN GOVERNMENT SO THAT IT SITS ALONGSIDE DIPLOMACY AND DEFENSE AS THE THREE ANCHORS OF HOW WE RECONNECT TO THE WORLD AND PLAY A PART AS A LONG-TERM RELIABLE PARTNER AGAIN.
>> JUST ONE VERY, VERY LAST QUICK ONE.
ONE OF THE ISSUES IS TRYING TO GET THE GLOBAL SOUTH TO ACCEPT YOURS AND UKRAINE'S NARRATIVE.
IT HASN'T YET WORKED OUT.
IS THAT AN ISSUE FOR YOU AS YOU TRY TO RESOLVE -- IT IS ALSO A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
>> THERE IS A GROWING GULF BETWEEN THE GLOBAL SOUTH AND THE WEST, AND THAT IS JUST APPARENT.
WE ARE DETERMINED TO RESET THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BRITAIN AND THE GLOBAL SOUTH BASED ON RESPECT.
RESPECT FOR WHAT OUR PARTNERS CONTRIBUTE, RESPECT FOR WHAT THEY HOPE TO ACHIEVE.
A MESSAGE TO THEM IS NOT THAT LABOR IS COMING BACK TO SAVE THE WORLD.
OUR MESSAGE IS THAT BRITAIN IS COMING BACK TO PLAY OUR PART IN HELPING THEM TO ACHIEVE THEIR AMBITIONS, AND AS ALL TO SOLVE THE GLOBAL CHALLENGES THAT WE FACE TOGETHER.
>> LISA NANDY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US.
AND OF COURSE WE'VE BEEN ASKING CONSERVATIVE PARTY REPRESENTATIVES, INCLUDING THE FORMER SECRETARY DAVID CAMERON THE COME ON THIS PROGRAM.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO AS PART OF OUR ELECTION COVERAGE.
>>> NOW, WHEN IT COMES TO ANY ELECTION, TECHNOLOGY IS THE MAIN TOOL THAT'S USED TO SHARE IMPORTANT INFORMATION.
SO HOW CAN IT BE LEVERAGED TO TACKLE FAKE CONTENT?
OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT IN THIS FIELD.
AUDREY TANG, TAIWAN'S FORMER DIGITAL AFFAIRS MINISTER, HAS USED A WIDE RANGE OF STRATEGIES TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM WITH A BOOK CALLED "PLURALITY."
IT DETAILS HOW THE INTERNET, WHICH IS A DIVISIVE SPACE FOR SO MANY, CAN ALSO PROVIDE IMMENSE OPPORTUNITIES FOR BRIDGE-BUILDING AND COLLABORATION.
TANG EXPLAINS HOW TO HARI SREENIVASAN.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.
AUDREY TANG, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
YOU ARE THE FORMER MINISTER OF DIGITAL AFFAIRS OF TAIWAN, AND YOU'RE THE CO-AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK CALLED "PLURALITY," AN OPEN SOURCE BOOK.
FIRST, WHAT IS PLURALITY.
WHY THIS TITLE?
WHY THIS IDEA?
>> PLURALITY MEANS COLLABORATION ACROSS DIVERSITY AND THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENABLES THIS KIND OF COLLABORATION.
THINK ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO WHEN UBER FIRST CAME TO TAIWAN.
THERE IS PRO TAXI, PRO UBER PARTS, BUT INSTEAD OF REPEATING THE DIVISIONS WE CODED UP OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGIES TO LET PEOPLE SEE THE BRIDGES ACROSS THE DIFFERENT CAMPS.
AND SO WE VERY QUICKLY SETTLED -- I WOULDN'T SAY COMPROMISE.
A CO-CREATED SOLUTION THAT MADE IT PROBLEM SOLVED WITH THIS SOCIETY'S INPUT.
THAT'S PLURALITY.
AND IT'S OPEN SOURCE, JUST LIKE THE TECHNOLOGY WE USE.
SO ANYBODY CAN TAKE A COPY ONLINE AND DOWNLOAD THAT PLURALITY AND CONTRIBUTE.
>> YOU MENTIONED THIS TENSION BETWEEN UBER AND KTAXIS.
HOW DID TECHNOLOGY BUILD A BRIDGE OR HIGHLIGHT BRIDGES BETWEEN WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE TWO DIVIDED CAMPS?
>> IN DEMOCRACIES WITH A LOWER INTEREST RATE AND A HIGHER LATENCY, MEANING YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR FOUR YEARS AND TO CAST A VOTE, WHICH CARRIES MAYBE THREE BITS OF INFORMATION, SOMETIMES YOU SEE ONE SIDE WINNING FOR FOUR YEARS AND ANOTHER FOUR YEARS HAS PASSED BY AND ANOTHER SIDE WINS, THE OTHER SIDE LOSES.
THERE IS VERY LITTLE ROOM FOR COCREATION.
BUT IN TAIWAN WE USED THIS SYSTEM CALLED POLIS, WHICH IS A WICK I SURVEY.
LIKE SURVEY, IT ASKS A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS.
LIKE A WIKI, THESE QUESTIONS ARE YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS' FEELINGS.
SO EVERYBODY CAN SAY OH, I FEEL THAT SURGE PRICING IS FINE, BUT UNDERCUTTING EXISTING MAJORS ISN'T.
OR THAT I FEEL THAT INSURANCE IS VERY IMPORTANT, REGARDLESS WHETHER THE DRIVER HAS A PROFESSIONAL LICENSE, AND SO ON.
AND SO FOR EACH AND EVERY OF THESE STATEMENTS, YOU CAN UNLIKE, YOU CAN LIKE, BUT YOU CANNOT REPLY.
SO PEOPLE'S ATTENTION IS NOT SUCKED INTO THIS ONLINE TROLLING, DUNKING, OR THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT RATHER IT PR PROPROMOTE PEOPLE.
BECAUSE THERE IS A REALTIME BOARD.
THAT PEOPLE'S STATEMENTS THAT FLOWS TO THE TOP BECAUSE THEY'RE EMBRACED BY BOTH SIDES.
SO VERY QUICKLY WE SET ALONG A VERY NEAT PACKAGE OF TEN RECOMMENDATIONS AND PUT THAT INTO LAW.
SO JUST BY GAMIFYING IT A LITTLE BIT HIGHLIGHTING THE ONE THAT IS MOST BRIDGING.
AND THE SAME ALGORITHM ALSO INSPIRED COMMUNITY NOTES SO THAT YOU CAN ALSO, YOU KNOW, PARTICIPATE IN THE COMMUNITY NOTES REPOSITORY.
BUT IT'S OPEN SOURCE NOTES THAT END UP BECOMING DISPLAYED ARE THE ONES THAT SPEAK ACROSS THE DIVIDES.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU OUTLINE IN THE BOOK IS HOW IT'S CALLED SORT OF GOV ZERO.
WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO DO WITH THAT IN TAIWAN?
>> GOVTW, THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT'S WEBSITE.
IF YOU CHANGE THE O TO A ZERO AND GET INTO ZERO WHICH IS THIS OPEN SOURCE CIVIC TYPE MOVEMENT.
AND THE REASON WHY IS THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, TEN YEARS AGO, IT WAS THE BUDGETS THAT WAS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
THEY WERE LOCKED IN PDFs AND SO ON.
OR THE LEGISLATORS' DEBATES AND SO ON.
PART OF THE PROMISE OF THE GOV ZERO MOVEMENT IS THIS RADICAL TRANSPARENCY.
MAKING SURE THAT EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHEN THEY FEEL THEY WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOVERNMENT FUNCTION, ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND SO ON, THE INFORMATION EVEN IF IT'S NOT ON THEIR FINGERTIPS, THEY CAN CHANGE THE WEBSITE AND CHANGE THE O TO A ZERO AND GET INTO THE SHADOW WEBSITES THAT EXPLAINS THINGS BETTER.
AND BECAUSE IT IS OPEN SOURCE, SOME TIME THE GOVERNMENT IS SHAMED TO MERGING BACK THIS NEW DESIGN SO THAT A SERVICE EXPERIENCE IS BETTER.
SO THAT'S STARTED FROM 2012.
AND AFTER I BECAME THE DIGITAL MINISTER IN 2016, I HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY MERGED ORDERS, INNOVATIONS INTO THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING, FOR EXAMPLE, CONTACT TRACING, VISUALIZATION, THE AVAILABILITY, SO AND SO FORTH DURING THE PANDEMIC.
>> SO SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT HAPPENED BETWEEN 2012 AND 2016, AND THAT WAS THE DEMONSTRATIONS, THE SUNFLOWER STUDENT MOVEMENT.
AND TELL THE AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOUR ROLE WAS DURING THAT TIME.
>> IN 2014, MANY STUDENTS FEEL THAT THIS SUDDEN PASSING OF A TRADE DEAL WAS BEIJING REGIME MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVEN WHY THAT IS BEING PASSED BECAUSE IT'S JUST BEING RUSHED THROUGH.
AND SO PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WE NEED A REAL DELIBERATION ON EACH AND EVERY ASPECT, INSTEAD OF JUST A SINGLE PACKAGE.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE WERE BUILDING THE THEN NEW 4G CORE NETWORK AND WHETHER ALLOWING ZGE INTO THAT NETWORK.
THAT A GOOD IDEA?
THAT'S PROBABLY WARRANTS A DEBATE.
SO PEOPLE JUST STORMED INTO THE PARLIAMENT DURING THE NIGHT WHEN THERE WAS NOBODY THERE, AND I WAS THERE SUPPORTING THE BANDWIDTHS REQUIRED TO LIVE STREAM THIS ENTIRE EVENT.
AND SO I WOULD CONTINUE THAT ROLE WITH THE GOV ZERO PEOPLE FOR THE NEXT THREE WEEKS.
AND BECAUSE EVERY CORNER IS LIVE-STREAMED, IT HAD TWO EFFECTS.
ONE, THERE IS NO VIOLENCE AROUND OCCUPIED PARLIAMENTARY AREA.
AND SECOND, IT ACTUALLY CONVERGED INSTEAD OF LIKE MOST OCCUPY, WHICH DIVERGED OVER TIME.
BECAUSE IF YOU GO TO THE OCCUPIED SITE, IF YOU ENTER YOUR COMPANY'S TAXI D N ID NUMBER, YN SEE HOW THE TRADE AFFECTS YOU AND ONE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON.
AND BECAUSE IT'S ALL CAPTURED IN LIVE STREAM, SUMMARIZED, READ OUT THE NEXT MORNING, EVERY DAY WE INCH A LITTLE BIT MORE TOWARD ROUGH CONSENSUS.
AT THE END OF IT, PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH IT, WITH A LOT OF AGREEMENTS, JUST LIKE THE UBER CASE.
AND SO THE HEAD OF THE PARLIAMENT EVENTUALLY SAID OKAY, IF THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WANT, WE WILL JUST DO THAT.
SO THE END RESULT IS THAT PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE TO SIGN A CROSS-TRADE SERVICE AND TRADE AGREEMENT.
PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT ANYTHING LIKE THAT SHOULD BE TREATED AS A TREATY WITH A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT INSTEAD OF A SPECIAL CONSTITUTIONALLY DEFINED GOVERNMENT.
AND ALSO, PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE TRANSPARENCY IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS ITSELF.
THE PART OF NEGOTIATION NEEDS TO BE LIVE-STREAMED.
THERE NEEDS TO BE A LOT MORE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS, AND SO ON.
AND SO A LOT OF THAT ENDED UP BECOMING THE OPEN PARLIAMENT ACTION PLAN, WHICH YOU CAN LOOK UP IN TAIWAN'S GOVERNMENTAL WEBSITE.
>> OKAY.
SO THROUGH THIS PROCESS, THROUGH THIS DEMONSTRATION, THROUGH THESE PROTESTS, YOU GET TO A POINT THAT WHERE YOU'RE SAYING LOOK, THE PEOPLE OF TAIWAN SHOULDN'T SIGN THIS TRADE PACT WITH CHINA.
HOW DID THAT SIT WITH CHINA, THE IDEA THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST MEETING RESISTANCE, BUT IN SUCH A DIGITAL AND TRANSPARENT AND PUBLIC WAY?
>> WE HAVE A MILLION PEOPLE ON THE STREET, AND MANY MORE ONLINE.
THIS DEMONSTRATION IS MORE THAN A PROTEST.
IT IS A DEMO.
IT SHOWS HOW DEMOCRACY CAN EVOLVE AS A SOCIAL TECHNOLOGY.
I CANNOT SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BEIJING REGIME, OF COURSE, BUT WE HAVE SEEN THAT THEY -- THEIR REACTIONS TOWARDS SOCIAL MEDIA IS QUITE DIFFERENT, WHEREAS WE EMBRACE THE PRO SOCIAL MEDIA WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, THEY SEEM TO AROUND THAT TIME, 2014-ISH THINK THAT IT IS SOMETHING OF GRAVE DANGER TO THEIR POLITY, THAT IF PEOPLE ORGANIZE THIS WAY WITH HALF A MILLION PEOPLE ON STREET THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THE STABILITY OF THEIR CONTROL AND THEIR POPULATION MAY BE GREATLY THREATENED.
AND SO THEY INVESTED A LOT OF MONEY, A LOT OF RESOURCES INTO SO-CALLED HARMONIZIZATION OF THE INTERNET AND MAKING SURE THAT THE CIVIL SOCIETIES SPACE ONLINE SHRINKS YEAR AFTER YEAR EVER SINCE 2014.
YEAH, I THINK THIS DEMONSTRATION IN TAIWAN ALSO SHOWED EVERYONE ELSE WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA CAN DO, BUT AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES RESPONDED QUITE DIFFERENTLY FROM TAIWAN.
>> I DO WANT THE ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT DURING THE PANDEMIC.
WHAT WERE SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT, YOU KNOW, QUICKLY THAT KIND OF SET THE TONE FOR HOW TAIWAN WAS GOING TO MANAGE THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC THAT LITERALLY ACROSS THE STRAIT WAS DOING JUST INCALCULABLE HUMAN DAMAGE?
>> A KEY IS THAT WE RESPONDED VERY, VERY QUICKLY.
SO TEN DAYS BEFORE THE SHOW THE WORLD ORGANIZATION TOOK DECISIVE ACTION.
AND WE ENSURED THAT PEOPLE KNEW VERY EARLY ON THAT MASK USE IS CRITICAL.
BUT AT A TIME, PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY SURE ABOUT AEROSOL OR MASK EFF EFFICACY, AND SO ON.
SO OUR COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGY IS RATHER DIFFERENT.
IN ADDITION DAILY TO PRESS CONFERENCES, IN ADDITION TO A HOTLINE 1922 ONE CAN CALL TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS, THERE ARE ALSO WAYS WE CALL HUMOR OVER RUMOR, MAKING SURE THERE IS A VERY CUTE SPOKES DOG, THAT WAS HER PAW ON THE FACE SAYING WEAR A MASK TO BLOCK AND WASH DIRTY HANDS FROM FACE.
AND IT'S VERY FUNNY, SO IT WENT VIRAL.
MAKING SURE THAT WHENEVER PEOPLE HEAR SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND, INSTEAD OF DEBUNKING THE RUMOR, AFTER THE RUMOR ALREADY APPEARED, WE PREBUNKED THE RUMOR BY ENSURING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHERE ITS COMING FROM AND HOW TO REACT TO IT WITH A MORE RELAXED ATTITUDE OR EVEN HUMOROUS ATTITUDE.
FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS A YOUNG BOY WHO CALLED 1922 HOTLINE SAYING MASKS NOW, BUT ALL I GOT IS PINK ONES, WHICH IS NOT FINE.
AS A BOY, I DO NOT WANT TO WEAR PINK TO A SCHOOL.
THE VERY NEXT DAY ON THE DAILY PANDEMIC CONFERENCE, EVERY MINISTER, DIRECTOR GENERALS, EVERYONE WORE PINK, REGARDLESS OF THEIR GENDER.
AND IT'S BECOME VERY FASHIONABLE, ALL THE FASHIONABLE BRANDS AND SO ON TURNED PINK.
IMAGINE IF WE HAD TO DEBUNK, IF THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION SAID BULLYING IS BAD.
THAT WON'T WORK, RIGHT?
BUT BY HAVING PINK BEING THE MOST FASHIONABLE COLOR, IT ACTUALLY WORKED AND INCREASED PEOPLE'S INTEREST IN WEARING RAINBOW MASK OR ALL SORT OF MASK THAT MASSIVELY INCREASED MASK USE.
SO IT'S AN ALL OF SOCIETY EFFORT.
>> WOW.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PREBUNKING MISINFORMATION OR DEALING WITH THE KINDS OF CHALLENGES, IT SEEMS THAT IT'S GOTTEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT SINCE COVID IN PART BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS IMPROVED, WHERE NOW IT'S NOT THAT HARD FOR ME TO CREATE A DEEPFAKE OF MYSELF OR OF YOU.
AND I WONDER IN THAT -- IN THIS NEW ERA THAT WE'RE HEADING INTO, HOW DO YOU INFORM AND MAKE SURE THAT YOUR POPULATION IS DIGITALLY LITERAL ENOUGH, WHERE THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE TO BE SORT OF FIRST-LINE FACT CHECKERS FOR EVERYONE, BUT HOW DO YOU PREPARE THEM FOR THIS NEW REALITY?
>> WHAT WE DID IN TERMS OF PREBUNKING WENT WAY BEFORE THIS ELECTION THIS JANUARY.
ALREADY IN 2022, I DEEPFAKE MYSELF IN FRONT OF A MONITOR SHOWING EXACTLY HOW IT'S DONE AND SHARE TO IT THE PEOPLE, SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW ALTHOUGH CURRENTLY IT TAKES 12 HOURS, VERY QUICKLY THIS WILL JUST TAKE 12 MINUTES.
AND VERY QUICKLY JUST 12 SECONDS.
AND NOW WE'RE AT THE MILLIE SECONDS RANGE WHICH CAN BE IN REALTIME TALKING TO YOU NOW.
BUT WE HAVE PREPARED PEOPLE'S MINDS AGAINST THIS POSSIBILITY.
AND I REALLY THINK THE KEY IS NOT JUST LITERACY.
LITERACY IS WHEN YOU CONSUME.
BUT STARTING 2019, WE CHANGED IN OUR CURRICULUM, DIGITAL LITERACY, BOO COMPETENCE.
COMPETENCE IS WHEN YOU CO-CREATE, WHEN YOU CONTRIBUTE.
SO INSTEAD OF JUST VIEWING THE NEWS WITH A CRITICAL MIND-SET, YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE FACT-CHECKING.
THESE ARE WHAT WE CALL SOCIETAL RESILIENCE IDEAS SO THAT EVEN IF YOU'RE A JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT, IF YOU'RE REALLY DILIGENT AND YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO FACT-CHECKING, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE A WIKIPEDIA AVID POSTER AND ADD A LOT OF CONTEXT TO WHAT'S GOING ON.
AND BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE USE THIS STAT, IT LET US SEE IN REALTIME WHICH RUMORS ARE TRENDING, WHICH ONES HAVING A BASIC REPRODUCTION NUMBER OF MORE THAN ONE, WHICH ARE LITERALLY GOING VIRAL.
AND WE GET THEM TO IGNORE THE REST, NOT TO SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON IT.
BECAUSE IT'S SELF-LIMITING.
>> AUDREY, I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU MAYBE A PERSONAL QUESTION.
AND YOU IDENTIFY AS TRANSGENDER AND NONBINARY.
I WONDER, IT'S NONBINARY NOT JUST IN GENDER, IT'S IN EVERYTHING.
I WONDER HOW THAT INFORMS YOUR OUTLOOK.
WE LITERALLY HAVE BEEN TALKING IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT WAYS WHERE YOU'RE BUILDING BRIDGES BETWEEN DIFFERENT PARTIES AND SO FORTH.
AND I WONDER IF SOMEWHERE THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING TODAY IS INFLUENCED, INFORMED BY WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD?
>> UH-HUH.
YEAH.
SO I JUST RECENTLY LEARNED THAT iPHONES, THE CONTACT BOOK, THERE ARE THE PRONOUN FIELDS.
AND WHEN A FRIEND ASKED ME TO FILL IN MY DETAILS, SO I SAID THAT I FILLED THAT MY PRONOUNS ARE ANY, ALL, AND WHATEVER, MEANING THAT I CAN'T GET OFFENDED.
SO THAT MEANS REALLY LIKE THAT IN MY MIND.
I DON'T THINK HALF OF THE POPULATION IS FARTHER AWAY FROM ME AND HALF IS CLOSER TO ME.
ON THE HR FORM THAT I FILED IN 2016 WHEN I FIRST BECAME DIGITAL MINISTER, THERE WERE NO DIGITAL MINISTERS BEFORE IN TAIWAN.
SO I HAD TO COME UP WITH MY OWN JOB DESCRIPTION, AND SO ON.
SO I FILED NOT APPLICABLE TO THE GENDER FIELD, AND NOT APPLICABLE TO THE PARTY FIELD.
SO I HAVE NO PARTY AFFILIATION.
I CONSIDER DIFFERENT PARTIES JUST PARTS OF THE FABRIC THAT WE CAN WEAVE TRUST.
SO I THINK IT DOES AFFECT MY OUTLOOK, BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT I FEEL THAT OH, THESE PEOPLE, THE TAXI DRIVES, THEY'RE CLOSER TO ME, AND THE UBER DRIVERS, THEY'RE FARTHER AWAY FROM ME, I WOULD THEN TELL MYSELF I NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH THE OTHER GROUP SO THAT I CAN ALSO SEE THE WORLD FROM THEIR EYES.
>> THE BOOK THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A PLURALITY, HOW'S IT POSSIBLE FOR THESE IDEAS TO IMPROVE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TAIWAN AND CHINA?
I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE SOURCE OF TENSION FROM THE UNITED STATES AND LOTS OF EUROPEAN NATIONS AND CHINA RIGHT NOW OVER TAIWAN.
>> UH-HUH.
>> SO IF WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE THE IDEAS FROM YOUR BOOK, DISTRIBUTE THEM WIDELY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ON KIND OF DIFFERENT SIDES OF THIS EQUATION, HOW CAN THEY USE THAT TO BRING THE TEMPERATURE DOWN?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT WILL DEPOLARIZE EFFECTIVELY A LOT OF THE CONVERSATIONS IN THE DEMOCRACIES, IN THE ALLIES THAT DOES SUPPORT TAIWAN.
BUT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF ELECTION DYNAMICS AND SO ON, THE PRC SOMETIMES SAYS THAT DEMOCRACY ONLY LEADS TO CHAOS OR DEMOCRACY NEVER DELIVERS, AND SO ON.
THEY DON'T QUITE COME OUT AND SAY THAT DIRECTLY THESE WORDS.
THAT'S MY WORDS, NOT THEIRS.
BUT THEY CERTAINLY SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT THE AUTHORITARIAN WAY MAY BE MORE HARMONIC IN MANY REGARDS.
BUT IF WE HAVE IMPLEMENTED PLURALITY WIDELY ACROSS DEMOCRACIES, JUST LIKE FINLAND, WHO HAVE ALSO ASKED WHAT THE FINNISH PEOPLE THINK, AND ALMOST ONE MILLION VOTES ARE CAST ON THE POLLIST PLATFORM SO PEOPLE CAN SEE VERY CLEARLY WHAT ARE THE BRIDGES, WHAT ARE THE DIVIDES IN THE COUNTRY, IN THE SOCIETY.
AND THEN TAKE REAL ACTIONS TO ADDRESS THOSE, THEN I THINK WILL MAKE DEMOCRACIES MUCH MORE PLURAL AND MUCH LESS POLARIZED.
AND ONCE WE HAVE DEPOLARIZED OURSELVES, WE WILL HAVE MORE CAPACITY TO ALSO DE-ESCALATE MANY OF THOSE INTERNATIONAL ISSUES.
>> AUDREY TANG, THE FORMER MINISTER OF DIGITAL AFFAIRS OF TAIWAN AND A CO-AUTHOR OF "PLURALITY."
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER.
>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO DON A CAP AND GOWN.
AT AGE 105, VIRGINIA GINGER HISLOP HAS JUST GRADUATED WITH A MASTERS IN EDUCATION FROM STANFORD UNIVERSITY.
83 YEARS SINCE SHE FIRST STARTED THERE IN 1936.
SHE QUIT THE STUDIES BACK THEN WHEN HER BOYFRIEND GOT CALLED UP TO SERVE IN WORLD WAR II.
NOW WITH HER FAMILY BY HER SIDE AND WEARING A BIG SMILE, SHE IS FINALLY GOT HER DIPLOMA.
MY GOODNESS, I'VE WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THIS, SHE SAID, WITH SOME UNDERSTATEMENT.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.
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