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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> Translator: IN 2004, I SAVED SINWAR'S LIFE IN PRISON.
I WAS A DOCTOR WHO DIAGNOSE AID PROBLEM HE HAD.
>> THE ISRAELI DOCTOR WHO CAME TO YAHYA SINWAR'S RESCUE.
YUVAL BITTON TELLS HIS STORY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
>>> I CREATED THE WRAP DRESS.
>> A FASHION ICON'S EXTRAORDINARY LIFE.
I SPEAK TO THE WOMAN HERSELF, DIANE von FURSTENBERG AND DIRECTOR SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY.
>>> GO BACK TO WHEN BLACK AMERICANS WERE ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF WORKING AND NOT BEING PAID.
>> "FIFTEEN CENTS ON THE DOLLAR," THE STORIES BEHIND THE BLACK AND WHITE WEALTH GAP.
♪ >> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
ISRAEL'S MILITARY APPEARS TO BE COUNTERING PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S GOALS FOR THE WAR IN GAZA.
REAR ADMIRAL DANIEL HAGARI ACKNOWLEDGED WHAT MANY OBSERVERS HAVE BEEN ARGUING FOR MONTHS.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> HAMAS -- >> Translator: HAMAS IS AN IDEA.
THOSE WHO THINK WE CAN MAKE HAMAS DISAPPEAR ARE WRONG.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES.
THIS IS A DECISION OF THE IDF THAT THEY WILL IMPLEMENT.
IT'S TO THROW DUST IN THE EYES OF THE PUBLIC.
IF WE DON'T BRING SOMETHING ELSE TO GAZA, IN THE END OF THE DAY WE WILL GET HAMAS.
>> MY FIRST GUEST AGREES.
HE PROBABLY KNOWS THE TOP LEVEL OF HAMAS BETTER THAN ANYONE.
THAT'S BECAUSE ISRAELI DOCTOR YUVAL BITTON WAS WORKING AS A DENTIST FOR THE STATE PRISON SERVICE IN THE 1990s WHEN HE MET YAHYA SINWAR.
BITTON SAYS THEY SPENT HUNDREDS OF HOURS TOGETHER.
ONE DAY IN 2004, WHEN SINWAR FACED A MEDICAL EMERGENCY, BITTON SWOOPED IN AND SAVED HIS LIFE.
SINWAR THANKED HIM WHEN HE WAS LATER RELEASED IN THE EXTRAORDINARY PRISONER HOSTAGE SWAP.
ON OCTOBER 7, BITTON'S NEPHEW WAS MURDERED BY HAMAS AT KIBBUTZ NIR OZ.
HE TELLS US THE LESSONS HE LEARNED ABOUT WHAT DRIVES HAMAS AND WHAT THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP CONTINUES TO GET WRONG.
HE HAS NOT SPOKEN ON INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION UNTIL TONIGHT.
YOU SAID ON THE MORNING OF OCTOBER 7, YOU KNEW IMMEDIATELY WHO HAD PLANNED THIS MASSACRE.
HOW COME?
>> Translator: BECAUSE I KNOW THE PERSON WHO PLANNED AND CONCEIVED AND INITIATED THIS CRIMINAL ATTACK.
I HAVE KNOWN HIM SINCE 1996.
NOT ONLY HIM, BUT THE ENTIRE HAMAS LEADERSHIP IN GAZA.
IT WAS CLEAR TO ME THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE PLANNING WHILE THEY WERE STILL IN PRISON.
AND THIS IS THE PLAN OF HAMAS.
IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO ME.
>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YAHYA SINWAR.
YOU SAID THAT WHEN YOU REALIZED WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, YOU WERE KIND OF TORMENTED BY WHAT YOU DID FOR HIM IN JAIL.
YOU ESSENTIALLY SAVED HIS LIFE.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT STORY.
>> Translator: IN 2004, I SAVED SINWAR'S LIFE IN PRISON.
I WAS THE DOCTOR WHO DIAGNOSED A PROBLEM HE HAD.
WHEN HE EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM, I DIAGNOSED IT AS A STROKE.
TOGETHER, WITH THE GENERAL PRACTITIONER, WE DECIDED TO TAKE HIM TO THE HOSPITAL.
HE ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL.
THE DIAGNOSIS WAS THAT HE HAD ABSCESS IN THE BRAIN.
HE WAS OPERATED ON THAT DAY.
THUS, SAVING HIS LIFE, BECAUSE IF IT HAD EXPLODED, HE WOULD HAVE DIED.
HE THANKED ME AND THE DOCTORS FOR SAVING HIS LIFE.
HE ALSO ASKED THE SECURITY OFFICER WHO WAS A MUSLIM, WHEN WE VISITED HIM IN THE HOSPITAL, TO TELL ME IN ARABIC AND EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IT MEANS FOR SOMEONE TO SAVE A MUSLIM'S LIFE AND THAT HE OWED ME HIS LIFE.
HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT ON THE DAY HE WAS RELEASED IN THE DEAL IN 2011, THAT HE OWED ME HIS LIFE.
ONE DAY HE WILL REPAY IT.
AS YOU UNDERSTAND, HE REPAID IT ON OCTOBER 7th IN THAT HE WAS ALSO DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF MY NEPHEW IN KIBBUTZ NIR OZ.
>> YOUR NEPHEW WENT TO TRY TO SAVE HIS FAMILY AND OTHERS WHEN THE INVASION HAPPENED AND THE MASSACRES HAPPENED.
HE WAS ABDUCTED AND APPARENTLY KILLED, OR HE DIED OF HIS WOUNDS, DRAGGED BACK INTO GAZA.
DO YOU BELIEVE HAD SINWAR KNOWN IT WAS YOUR NEPHEW, THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?
>> Translator: I DID NOT AND DO NOT ENGAGE IN SPECULATION.
MY NEPHEW CAME OUT TO DEFEND.
HE FOUGHT IN THOSE TERRIBLE MOMENTS OF THE MORNING IN KIBBUTZ NIR OZ.
HUNDREDS OF TERRORISTS MURDERED RAPED AND SLAUGHTERED AND BURNED 50 PEOPLE FROM NIR OZ.
50 MEMBERS OF KIBBUTZ NIR OZ.
75 OTHER MEMBERS WERE KIDNAPPED, INCLUDING HIS GRANDMOTHER.
THE OLDER WOMAN ON THE SCOOTER.
HE WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED DURING HIS DEFENSE OF THE COMMUNITY.
THERE WERE FIVE OF THEM.
THEY DIDN'T REALLY STAND A CHANCE.
HE WAS KIDNAPPED WHILE HE WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED, UNCONSCIOUS AND DIED AFTER A FEW HOURS IN GAZA.
IT'S IRRELEVANT WHAT I THINK ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF.
>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, THE ELDERLY LADY, HIS GRANDMOTHER, I BELIEVE WAS RELEASED IN THE FIRST ROUND DURING THE NEGOTIATED RELEASE IN NOVEMBER.
CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT SINWAR AND HAMAS IN JAIL?
>> Translator: I HAD MANY HOURS, HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF CONVERSATION WITH SINWAR, BOTH AS A DENTIST AND AS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER.
>> WHAT IMPRESSION DID YOU GET OF HIS PLANS, HIS GOALS?
>> Translator: I LEARNED FROM HIM AND THE OTHER LEADERS.
IT WAS CLEAR TO ME THAT SINWAR REFLECTS THE HAMAS GAZA WORLDVIEW.
SINWAR TOLD ME CLEARLY IN 2004 THAT THEY WOULD BE READY TO SIGN A TRUCE FOR 20 YEARS BECAUSE THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS CURRENTLY A STRONG STATE.
BUT HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT IN 20 YEARS, HE ESTIMATES THAT WE WILL BE WEAKENED BECAUSE OF INTERNAL STRUGGLES BETWEEN US WITHIN ISRAELI SOCIETY.
AS SOON AS THEY RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE WEAK, THEY WILL ATTACK US.
THEY ALSO SAID CLEARLY THAT WE AS JEWS HAVE NO PLACE ON THESE LANDS, ON LANDS ON WHICH THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS LOCATED.
THESE ARE MUSLIM LANDS.
THESE ARE LANDS THAT DO NOT BELONG TO US.
THEREFORE, WE AS JEWS HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXIST ON THE LANDS.
THEREFORE, WILL IS NO COMPROMISE, THERE'S NO COMPROMISE ON THE 1967 BORDERS OR 1948 BORDERS.
IT'S EITHER US OR THEM.
THEREFORE, IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME AND TIMING THAT THEY WILL ACT AGAINST US AND TRY TO EXPEL US FROM THE PLACE WHERE WE LIVE.
THIS IS A WORLDVIEW THEY DIDN'T HIDE.
HE TOLD ME THAT.
HIS WAY WAS MUCH MORE EXTREME THAN OTHERS.
HIS THOUGHT THAT THIS CONFLICT CAN ONLY BE RESOLVED BY DIVORCE AND THE STRUGGLE THEY ARE WAGING AGAINST US, HAMAS IS WAGING AS A RELIGIOUS STRUGGLE, THE WAR IS A RELIGIOUS WAR.
IT'S NOT A NATIONALIST WAR.
IT'S NOT ABOUT ESTABLISHING A PALESTINIAN STATE ALONGSIDE THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
IT'S ALL PALESTINE.
HE ONLY SAID THIS MORE BLUNTLY THAN OTHER HAMAS LEADERS IN THE WEST BANK.
>> YUVAL, NOW HE APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE, I THINK, SINWAR IS STILL SOMEWHERE IN THOSE TUNNELS IN GAZA, STILL APPARENTLY CALLING THE SHOTS, NINE MONTHS, EIGHT MONTHS INTO THIS WAR.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HIS MENTAL STATE NOW AND WHO HE IS, THE PERSON YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK HE IS THINKING ABOUT CEASE-FIRE, ABOUT ANYTHING, ABOUT RELEASING THE HOSTAGES THAT STILL REMAIN?
>> Translator: I'VE MADE MY OPINION VERY CLEAR FOR EIGHT MONTHS.
AND AT EVERY STAGE OF THIS WAR.
I'VE MADE MY OPINION VERY CLEAR.
AND UNTIL TODAY, I HAVE UNFORTUNATELY NOT BEEN WRONG ABOUT MY ASSESSMENTS REGARDING SINWAR.
I WISH I WAS MISTAKEN.
I WAS ASKED IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF THE WAR WHAT SINWAR WOULD DEMAND IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HOSTAGES.
IT WAS CLEAR TO ME THAT HE WOULD RELEASE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN BECAUSE OF HAMAS' INTERESTS AND NOT DUE TO ISRAEL'S MILITARY PRESSURE, BECAUSE HE WAS ATTACKED BY THE ENTIRE WORLD AND ESPECIALLY BY QATAR, WHICH FELT EMBARRASSED.
AND THE MOMENT THAT HE RELEASED THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND TURNED THE PRESSURE ON ISRAEL, IT WAS CLEAR TO ME THE GOAL OF THIS CRIMINAL AND MURDEROUS ATTACK IN WHICH WOMEN, CHILDREN AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS WERE MURDERED, RAPED AND BURNED IN THEIR HOMES, WAS TO RELEASE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS.
HE STATED THIS IN 2011 WHEN HE WAS RELEASED DURING HIS DEAL.
HE THOUGHT IT WAS A BAD DEAL.
THAT HAMAS SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED.
HE SAID IT WAS A BAD DEAL.
WE WILL KIDNAP SOLDIERS IN ORDER TO RELEASE THOSE WE LEFT BEHIND.
THE SUCCESS OF THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS CAUSED THE KIDNAPPING OF 240 ISRAELI CIVILIANS, SOME OF WHOM WERE SOLDIERS.
HE BROUGHT ON THE IDF'S RESPONSE, BECAUSE HE DID NOT THINK HE WOULD KIDNAP 240 CIVILIANS AND SOLDIERS.
HE THOUGHT HE MANAGED TO GET A NUMBER OF SOLDIERS, BUT DIDN'T THINK THE IDF WOULD BE LEFT UNPREPARED ALONG THE BORDERS.
IF THE MAIN REASON OF THE ATTACK WAS TO RELEASE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS, THE IDF'S RESPONSE FORCED HIM TO CHANGE HIS PRIORITIES.
AT THE MOMENT, SINCE IDF ENTERED THE GAZA STRIP, HIS PRIORITY TO MAINTAIN HIS RULE.
HE PUT THE ISSUE OF RELEASING THE PRISONERS AS A SECOND PRIORITY.
NOW THE FIRST PRIORITY IS TO MAINTAIN HAMAS' RULE.
THE CONDITION FOR RELEASING THE HOSTAGES WILL ONLY BE THE IDF'S WITHDRAWAL FROM GAZA AND THE END OF THE WAR.
THE HOSTAGES ARE BEING USED TO ACHIEVE HIS GOALS.
ISRAEL MADE A MISTAKE DURING ITS OPERATION AND IN ITS THINKING ONLY MILITARY PRESSURE WOULD BRING THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES, WHICH I SAID IN THE FIRST MONTH OF THE WAR, I THOUGHT A MILITARY EFFORT WAS IMPORTANT TO DISMANTLE HAMAS, DESTROY IT AND HURT ITS MILITARY CAPABILITIES.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT EFFORT.
BUT IN ORDER TO RETURN THE HOSTAGES, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
BECAUSE SINWAR THINKS ONLY ABOUT THE CONTINUITY OF HIS RULE.
HE IS WILLING TO SACRIFICE EVEN 100,000 PALESTINIANS IN ORDER TO ENSURE THE SURVIVAL OF HIS RULE.
HE IS WILLING TO PAY WITH THE LIVES OF MILITANTS, HAMAS MEMBERS, CIVILIANS.
ISRAEL'S MISTAKE IS THAT IT DIDN'T CREATE AN ALTERNATIVE AND DIDN'T REPLACE HAMAS' RULE AND DIDN'T ALLOW AN IMPROVED VERSION OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY FORCES TO MAKE CLEAR TO SINWAR HE HAS LOST EVERYTHING, BOTH HIS MILITARY CAPABILITY, BUT MOSTLY HIS AUTHORITY IN GAZA.
THAT WOULD HAVE CAUSED SINWAR TO MAKE A DEAL TO RETURN OUR HOSTAGES IN EXCHANGE FOR PRISONERS.
TODAY HE FEELS HE IS IN A POWERFUL POSITION.
HE IS RUNNING THE NEGOTIATIONS WHILE STILL OPERATING FROM WITHIN GAZA AND STILL CONTROLS THE AREAS FROM THIS THE IDF EVACUATED.
HE ALSO CONTROLS THE HUMANITARIAN AID.
THEREFORE, HE FEELS STRONG AND WON'T SIGN AN AGREEMENT TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES UNLESS THE IDF WITHDRAWS FROM GAZA AND THE FIGHTING ENDS.
>> YUVAL, YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS MADE A MISTAKE STRATEGICALLY BY NOT PROVIDING FOR ALTERNATE PALESTINIAN GOVERNANCE INSIDE GAZA AS THEY GO AFTER HAMAS.
WHEN YOU WERE A PRISON DENTIST AND WHEN YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE ALL THE PRISONERS, WHAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE SIDES THAT YOU NOTICED?
>> Translator: ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE AGREED TO THE BIDEN PLAN WHICH TALKS ABOUT STRATEGIC AXIS, INCLUDING THE MODERATE ARAB STATES, LED BY SAUDI ARABIA, THE EMIRATES, EGYPT, JORDAN, SPONSORED BY THE UNITED STATES, THAT WOULD SPONSOR A PALESTINIAN FORCE ASSOCIATED WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND FATAH THAT WOULD ENTER THE GAZA STRIP AND IN EVERY PLACE THE IDF EVACUATES, A CIVIL AUTHORITY WOULD TAKE ITS PLACE RUN BY THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY WHICH WOULD ENFORCE ITS RULE AND MONITOR IT.
THIS MISTAKE OF NOT ACCEPTING BIDEN'S PLAN ENABLES SINWAR TO BE THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE ARENA, WITH ONE HAND WE APPLIED MILITARY FORCE AND DISDISMANTLED THEM AND WITH THE OTHER WE ENABLED HAMAS' RULE.
IN 2007, HAMAS OVERTHREW FATAH.
THEY DROVE THEM UNTIL THE STREETS OF GAZA UNTIL THEY DIED.
SOME WERE BEHEADED.
THEN FATAH UNDERSTOOD ITS GREATEST ENEMY WAS HAMAS AND NOT ISRAEL.
IT WAS THEN THAT FATAH UNDERSTOOD THAT HAMAS WAVES THE GREEN FLAG, OF ISLAM, AND NOT THE PALESTINIAN FLAG.
HAMAS' STRUGGLE IS NOT THE SAME AS FATAH'S.
FATAH TALKS ABOUT A COMPROMISE WITHIN THE BORDERS.
HAMAS IS FIGHTING A RELIGIOUS WAR AGAINST THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
WHAT HAMAS DID TO FATAH IN 2007, THE MUSLIMS, IF HE DID THAT TO MUSLIMS, WHAT WILL THEY DO TO THE JEWS WHEN THEY COULD?
IN 2007 IN PRISON, THE FATAH LEADERSHIP CAME TO US, THE INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS AND DEMANDED AND REQUESTED OF US TO REMOVE ALL OF THE HAMAS PRISONERS FROM THE FATAH QUARTERS.
OTHERWISE, THEY WILL MURDER THEM.
THEY TOLD US THE INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS AND THE ISRAELI COMMANDERS THAT THEY DON'T SEE HAMAS AS PART OF THEIR STRUGGLE AGAINST ISRAEL.
THEY SEE THEM AS TRAITORS AND ENEMIES.
SINCE THEN, IN THE WEST BANK, FATAH IS WAGING AN ALL-OUT WAR AGAINST HAMAS.
NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR LOVE FOR ISRAEL BUT BECAUSE THEY SUSPECT THEY COULD LOSE CONTROL OF THE WEST BANK AS THEY DID IN GAZA.
BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT HAMAS WOULD RISE UP IN THE WEST BANK AS THEY DID IN GAZA.
HAMAS ONLY SEES ONE WAY, A MUSLIM STATE, A MUSLIM CALIPHATE.
IF THE FATAH GETS IN ITS WAY, IT WILL HARM FATAH, TOO.
THEREFORE, IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE EXPLOITED THIS, THE SAME WAY WE DID IN PRISON, BUT OUTSIDE AS WELL.
SINWAR IS MOST AFRAID OF FATAH CONTROLLING GAZA AND NOT ISRAELI CONTROL BECAUSE ISRAEL IS AN ENEMY IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS.
HE WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO DRAFT PEOPLE AGAINST ISRAEL IN ORDER TO CONDUCT WARFARE.
UP AGAINST FATAH, IT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE FATAH IS PART OF ITS OWN NATION.
>> FINAL QUESTION.
YOU SAY THAT SINWAR AND THE OTHER PALESTINIANS LEARNED A LOT ABOUT ISRAEL, THEY LEARNED HEBREW, THEY LEARNED ABOUT SOCIETY WHILE THEY WERE IN PRISON.
YOU LEARNED SOMETHING ABOUT HAMAS.
DID THE GOVERNMENT, DID THE ISRAELI SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SOCIETY LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT HAMAS?
>> Translator: UNFORTUNATELY, THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP DID NOT STUDY HAMAS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE AMONG US, EVEN IN THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, DID NOT KNOW AND LEARN HAMAS WELL ENOUGH.
ALL WE NEEDED TO DO WAS LISTEN TO THEM.
OUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS HAMAS WAS ARROGANT.
WE DISMISSED HAMAS.
HAMAS SAID EVERYTHING IT INTENDED TO DO.
WE DIDN'T WANT TO LISTEN.
THIS IS ONE THING.
THE SECOND THING IS THERE WAS A WRONG CONCEPTION.
THE CONCEPTION WITH WHICH WE ACTED TOWARD HAMAS.
ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE TOPPLED HAMAS.
SINCE 2007, WHEN HAMAS CAME INTO POWER IN GAZA, WE SHOULD HAVE TOPPLED IT.
EACH TIME WE DIDN'T DO IT, WE GOT A STRONGER HAMAS.
STRENGTHENING IT AND ARMORING ITSELF FOR 2023.
THE MISTAKE WAS DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK, BETWEEN HAMAS AND FATAH.
IT SERVED HAMAS.
IT DIDN'T DESERVE US.
WE THOUGHT WE COULD ISOLATE HAMAS, THAT WE HAD THE TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS TO KEEP HAMAS INSIDE THE BORDERS OF THE GAZA.
WE WILL HAVE INTELLIGENCE TO ALERT THE ENEMY'S INTENTION TO HURT US AND WE WOULD BE PREPARED FOR IT AHEAD OF TIME.
I THINK WE ESTABLISHED OUR INTELLIGENCE TOO MUCH ON TECHNOLOGY AND LESS ON HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.
HUMAN INTELLIGENCE COULD HAVE RECOGNIZED BETTER THE INTENTION OF THE ENEMY, THE INTENTION OF HAMAS TO DO THIS CRIMINAL RAID.
WE COULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IT IN ADVANCE.
WE WOULDN'T HAVE FOUND OURSELVES SURPRISED.
SO OUR CONCEPTION COLLAPSED.
ALSO, THE STRENGTHENING OF HAMAS WITH QATARI MONEY WAS A MISTAKE.
WE MADE MANY MISTAKES BECAUSE OUR LEADERS AND IDF AND INTELLIGENCE LEADERS WERE WRONG ABOUT THEIR CONCEPTION OF HAMAS.
>> YUVAL BITTON, THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION AND YOUR INSIGHT.
IT IS EXTRAORDINARY GIVEN WHAT WE HAVE REPORTED THAT THE CHIEF IDF SPOKESMAN HAS AGREED WITH SOME OF THIS NOW PUBLICLY IN AN ISRAELI TV INTERVIEW.
WE HAVE SEEN THAT KEY MEMBERS OF THE SO-CALLED WAR CABINET, BEFORE IT WAS RESOLVED, RESIGNED BECAUSE OF THIS PERSPECTIVE AND INFORMATION AND SEEING THAT THE WAR WAS NOT ACHIEVING THE MAXIMALIST GOALS NETANYAHU AND HIS RIGHT WING COALITION SET.
>>> NEXT, TO A TRAILBLAZING FASHION DESIGNER AND HER EXTRAORDINARY LIFE STORY.
IF THE WORLD KNOWS DIANE von FURSTENBERG IT'S FOR HER ICONIC WRAP DRESSES.
HER IDENTITY IS FAR MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT SIMPLE ITEM.
SHE'S THE CHILD OF A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR.
HER MOTHER BARELY MADE IT OUT OF AUSCHWITZ.
SHE'S UNASHAMEDLY EMBRACED LIFE AND LOVE ON HER OWN TERMS AS SHE SAYS, LIKE ANY MAN WOULD.
SHE'S ALSO THE SAVVY BUSINESSWOMAN WHO BUILD A FASHION EMPIRE.
NOW A NEW DOCUMENTARY, "DIANE von FURSTENBERG: WOMAN IN CHARGE" TELLS THE WHOLE STORY.
HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
>> WELCOME DIANE von FURSTENBERG.
>> I CREATED THE WRAP DRESS.
I WRAPPED AMERICA AROUND.
>> A MODERN WOMAN WHO COULD HAVE IT ALL.
>> SHE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST WOMEN WHO BROKE THROUGH THE GLASS CEILING IN BUSINESS.
>> I MARRIED A PRINCE.
>> WE ARE LIKE THIS "IT" COUPLE.
EVERYBODY WANTED TO SLEEP WITH HIM, MALE, FEMALE.
>> IT WAS A TIME OF FREE LOVE.
>> IT'S CO-DIRECTED BY THE OSCAR WINNING DIRECTOR SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY.
THEY BOTH RECENTLY JOINED ME AHEAD OF THE FILM'S RELEASE.
DIANE von FURSTENBERG, SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> HELLO.
>> THANK YOU.
>> LISTEN, THIS IS PRETTY AMAZING.
FIRST, I HAVE SPOKEN TO BOTH OF YOU SEPARATELY IN THE PAST.
I KNOW SOME OF SHARMEEN'S PREVIOUS WORK.
DIANE, I KNOW YOUR WORK.
I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE NECESSARILY PAIRED YOU.
FIRST, DIANE, WHAT IS IT ABOUT SHARMEEN, WHAT MADE YOU TRUST HER TO TELL YOUR STORY?
>> I'M A GREAT ADMIRER OF HER WORK.
A WOMAN WHO GETS TWO OSCARS BEFORE SHE'S 40 IS PRETTY AMAZING.
I OBVIOUSLY COULDN'T BE A PRODUCER.
I COULDN'T BE INVOLVED IN ANYTHING.
I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO INVOLVEMENT OTHER THAN BEING THE SUBJECT.
OF COURSE, THEY HAD ALL ACCESS TO MY ARCHIVES.
I HAVE THEM GET PEOPLE TO INTERVIEW.
I HAD ABSOLUTELY -- I ACTUALLY LOVE IT LIKE THAT.
IT'S MUCH BETTER TO BE THE SUBJECT.
>> SHARMEEN, WHAT ABOUT DIANE?
WHAT WAS IT ABOUT HER THAT ATTRACTED YOU?
>> I HAVE MADE FILMS ABOUT WOMEN WHO HAVE LIVED EXTRAORDINARY LIVES, FACED WITH CIRCUMSTANCES, ADVERSITY AND HAVE RISEN THROUGH IT.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE SPINE OF DIANE'S LIFE, HERE IS A WOMAN BORN OUT OF THE ASHES OF WORLD WAR II, WHOSE BIRTH IN ITSELF WAS A MIRACLE, WHO STARTED A BUSINESS AT A TIME WHEN WOMEN NEEDED MEN TO COSIGN FOR SOMETHING AS SMALL AS A CREDIT CARD.
HER JOURNEY FROM EUROPE TO AMERICA AS AN IMMIGRANT, STARTING A BUSINESS, BEING A SINGLE MOTHER, IT'S AN INSPIRATIONAL STORY OF A WOMAN WHO WAS TRYING TO CHART HER OWN YELLOW BRICK ROAD.
THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO FOCUS ON.
BECAUSE I FEEL TODAY WOMEN NEED TO HEAR STORIES OF HOW YOU MAKE IT IN THE WORLD AND HOW YOU FIND YOUR OWN VOICE.
DIANE IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO HAS FALLEN DOWN MANY TIMES AND PICKED HERSELF BACK UP.
>> LISTEN, ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY THINGS IS HOW YOU DECIDED TO START THE PROGRAM.
DIANE HAS ALWAYS OWNED HERSELF AND ALWAYS BEEN AUTHENTIC.
THIS CLIP WE'RE GOING TO PLAY RIGHT NOW -- I LAUGHED OUT LOUD WHEN I SAW IT.
>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE DO NOT EMBRACE AGE.
I'VE ALWAYS BEEN ATTRACTED BY WRINKLES.
YOU KNOW?
AGE MEANS LIVING.
YOU SHOULDN'T SAY, HOW OLD YOU ARE.
YOU SHOULD SAY, HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED?
IF YOU TAKE ALL YOUR WRINKLES AWAY, YOU KNOW, THE MAP OF YOUR LIFE IS DIFFERENT.
I DON'T REALLY WANT TO ERASE ANYTHING FROM MY LIFE.
>> DIANE, ARE THERE MANY WOMEN THAT YOU KNOW -- EVEN YOUNGER THAN YOU -- WHO WOULD BE THAT HONEST ABOUT AGE?
>> BUT WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS HONEST ABOUT AGE.
I MEAN, AGE MEANS YOU HAVE LIVED.
YOU HAVE TO HONOR THAT.
WHEN YOU AGE, YOU ALREADY HAVE -- YOU ALREADY HAVE THE YEARS BEFORE.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF, OH, NOT WANTING TO SAY YOUR AGE.
I'M 77 YEARS OLD.
I COULDN'T BE A WEEK YOUNGER BECAUSE LAST WEEK I LEARNED A LOT.
I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF BEING INTIMIDATED BY YOUR AGE.
I THINK IT'S A VICTORY.
>> YEAH.
THAT'S GREAT.
YOU WORK IN THE FASHION INDUSTRY.
YOU LIVE IN NEW YORK.
YOU KNOW SO MANY WOMEN WHO ARE TRYING TO ERASE THE WRINKLES AND JACK UP THEIR FACES AND DRESS IN A WAY -- THAT'S WHY THIS IS SO INTERESTING.
ACTUALLY, YOUR STORY MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT.
YOU SAY THAT 18 MONTHS AFTER YOUR MOTHER EMERGED ALIVE FROM AUSCHWITZ, YOU WERE BORN.
I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.
I WANT TO ASK SHARMEEN -- THERE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY SCENE WHERE SOME OF YOUR -- THE FRAGMENTS OF THE LETTERS YOUR MOTHER WROTE AS SHE WAS ON THE WAY ESSENTIALLY TO THE CONCENTRATION CAMP, THAT WERE EVENTUALLY FOUND, BECAUSE YOU FOUND THEM A DECADE LATER.
I'M GOING TO PLAY THE CLIP FROM THE DOCUMENTARY.
>> SHE TOOK SOME CARDBOARD.
SHE WROTE TO HER PARENTS.
SHE THREW IT ON THE STREET HOPING THAT SOMEBODY WOULD FIND IT.
SHE -- SHE SAID -- SHE GAVE THE ADDRESS.
SHE WROTE TO HER PARENTS.
>> I THINK THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY, TOO.
I LEAVE WITH A SMILE TAKES SOMETHING TO BE ABLE TO WRITE THAT THEN.
>> IT WASN'T TRUE.
IT'S NOT LIKE SHE LEFT WITH A SMILE.
SHE WANTED HER PARENTS TO THINK THAT.
SHE DID SURVIVE.
SHE SURVIVED 14 MONTHS.
SHE ALWAYS SAID THAT SHE FELT SHE SURVIVED BECAUSE HER MOTHER'S WILL.
>> YOU SAY THROUGHOUT THE FILM THAT YOUR MANTRA IS FREEDOM AND ALSO BEING IN CHARGE AS A WOMAN.
YOU KEEP USING THOSE WORDS THROUGHOUT THE FILM.
REALLY, LET'S JUMP FORWARD TO WHEN YOU CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THAT TIME ESSENTIALLY BECAME A BUSINESSWOMAN OUT OF NOWHERE WITH THE FAMOUS WRAP DRESS.
HOW DIFFICULT WAS THAT?
I READ -- I SAW IN THE FILM YOU HAD TO CRISSCROSS ALL OVER AMERICA.
PEOPLE WERE NOT PREPARED, REALLY, TO DEAL WITH A WOMAN WHO WAS PEDDLING THESE WARES AT THAT TIME.
>> IT WAS THE ADVENTURE OF MY LIFE.
WE DON'T CHOOSE WHERE WE ARE BORN.
WE DON'T CHOOSE OUR PARENTS.
WHAT WE CAN DO -- WE DON'T EVEN CHOOSE OUR DESTINY.
WE TRY TO NAVIGATE IT THE BEST WE CAN.
I WANTED VERY MUCH TO BE A WOMAN IN CHARGE, TO BE A WOMAN INDEPENDENT.
EVEN THOUGH I HAD MARRIED A YOUNG VERY ATTRACTIVE ARISTOCRAT WITH MONEY.
I WANTED VERY MUCH TO HAVE MY OWN MONEY AND TO BE A WOMAN IN CHARGE.
I BECAME THAT WOMAN BECAUSE OF A LITTLE DRESS.
SO I TRAVELED AROUND AND MEETING WOMEN, WRAPPING DRESSES AROUND THEM.
THE MORE CONFIDENT I WAS, THE MORE I WAS ACTUALLY SELLING CONFIDENCE WITH THE DRESS.
IT WAS THE LIBERATION OF WOMEN.
IT WAS A TIME.
THIS DRESS BECAME ALSO A FLAG OF FREEDOM.
>> I WONDER, YOU ARE SITTING NEXT TO SHARMEEN, ALSO FROM A COUNTRY, LET'S FACE IT, PAKISTAN, THAT WOULD NEVER WEAR A WRAP DRESS.
WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO BE A SUCCESSFUL WOMAN IN PAKISTAN?
>> I'M VERY MUCH A PRODUCT OF PAKISTAN.
I LIVE AND WORK OUT OF PAKISTAN.
THE SPACE EXISTS FOR WOMEN LIKE MYSELF TO BE THERE.
WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR OUR RIGHTS.
LET'S BE HONEST, WOMEN IN AMERICA ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
WOMEN IN EUROPE ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR RIGHTS.
THERE ARE STEPS BEING TAKEN AROUND THE WORLD FOR WOMEN WHO ARE BEING PUSHED BACK.
SOME OF US LIVE IN COUNTRIES WHICH ARE MORE DIFFICULT FOR WOMEN THAN OTHERS.
I WILL SAY WOMEN LIKE MYSELF STAY IN OUR COUNTRIES, WE SPEAK OUT AND WE TRY AND PUSH THE NARRATIVE FORWARD SO THAT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR DAUGHTERS HAVE A BETTER TOMORROW.
>> I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN WHEN YOU TOUCH ON DIANE'S SEXUALITY.
THERE WAS THAT AMAZING CLIP WHERE DIANE TALKS ABOUT HAVING HAD AN AFFAIR -- I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU DESCRIBE IT WITH WARREN BEATTY AND MICK JAGGER.
WHY DID YOU WANT TO INCLUDE THAT?
>> YOU SHOULD REALLY ASK ME WHY I SAID THAT.
THE TRUTH IS THAT, AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, IT WAS SOMETHING TO BOAST ABOUT.
WHY A BUSINESSMAN CAN GO ON TOUR, ARRIVE AT THE BEVERLY HILLS HOTEL AND GO OUT WITH ONE MAN AND ONE GIRL AND ANOTHER GIRL THE NEXT DAY AND WHY CAN'T A WOMAN DO THAT?
WHY?
I MEAN, IT'S PART OF JUST SPEAKING THE TRUTH.
I WAS QUITE PROUD OF IT.
I ACTUALLY STILL AM.
THEY WERE HOT.
THEY WERE IN THEIR EARLY 30s.
>> I WANT TO FLIP BACK TO YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR FIRST HUSBAND, PRINCE von FURSTENBERG.
HE WAS GAY.
IT WAS AT A TIME OF THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE AIDS CRISIS IN NEW YORK.
HE DID DEVELOP AIDS.
HE DIED OF IT.
I JUST WONDER WHAT IMPACT THAT HAD ON YOUR CHILDREN AND ON YOU.
YOU HAD TWO CHILDREN WITH HIM.
>> FIRST OF ALL, MORE THAN BEING GAY, HE WAS PROMISCUOUS.
THERE WAS A TIME IN NEW YORK WHERE PEOPLE WERE VERY PROMISCUOUS.
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, AIDS CAME.
IT WAS HARD MOSTLY FOR MY CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY WERE GROWING UP AT THAT TIME.
THEY WERE TEENAGERS.
TO BE TEENAGERS AND TO HAVE A FEAR OF A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP COULD KILL YOU WAS SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I GREW UP WITH.
THEY TALK ABOUT IT IN THE MOVIE.
WE NEVER REALLY ACTUALLY ADDRESSED IT WHILE HE WAS THERE.
THE THREE OF US WERE WITH HIM WHEN HE DIED.
IT WAS A VERY PROFOUND MOMENT.
ACTUALLY, A VERY BEAUTIFUL MOMENT.
>> I WILL ALSO SAY.
ONE OF THE BEAUTIES ABOUT THE FILM -- ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE THINGS ABOUT THE FILM IS HOW HONEST THE FAMILY IS.
THE CHILDREN OPEN UP THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR MOTHER, THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR FATHER.
IT'S THE HONESTY IN TELLING THEIR STORY THAT MAKES DIANE'S STORY SO MUCH STRONGER.
>> SHARMEEN, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU DID -- THEY ARE ADULTS.
YOU GOT HER KIDS TO OPEN UP AND APPEAR AND TALK.
I WAS ACTUALLY REALLY, REALLY KIND OF MOVED WHEN DIANE IS READING THIS LETTER WHEN SHE WAS A KID THAT HER DAUGHTER WROTE HER.
IT SAYS, DEAR MOMMY, I WAS WONDERING IF I COULD HAVE A TALK WITH YOU SOMETIME, BECAUSE MOMMY, YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY LIFE.
THAT JUST WAS LIKE A DAGGER THROUGH MY HEART.
I GUESS, SHARMEEN, HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT MOMENT?
>> I LOVE THAT LETTER.
I LOVE THAT LETTER SO MUCH THAT I HAVE IT PINNED.
>> IT WAS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T AROUND.
>> YES.
BUT IT'S PART OF THE PROCESS.
WHEN YOUR CHILDREN GROW UP, IT'S PART OF THE PROCESS.
THEY TEST YOU.
YOU TEST THEM.
THEY THOUGHT I WASN'T THERE MUST HAVE.
I WAS ACTUALLY THERE MORE THAN THEY THOUGHT.
I NEVER LEFT THEM MENTALLY.
WHEN THEY WENT TO BOARDING SCHOOL, I WROTE EVERY DAY.
THEN YOU GO THROUGH A PROCESS.
THEY GROW UP.
MY CHILDREN AND I, WE TALK TWICE A DAY AT LEAST.
>> AS SOMEONE WHO IS A WORKING MOTHER AND WHO TRAVELS A LOT FOR WORK, READING THAT LETTER AND SORT OF FILMING THE RELATIONSHIP THAT DIANE HAS WITH HER CHILDREN REALLY TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT MYSELF.
DIANE AND I WOULD SAY, 25 YEARS FROM NOW, YOUR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO BE TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE NOT THERE FOR THEM.
LET'S BE HONEST, WE'RE NOT MIRACLE WORKERS.
THERE'S A BALL THAT WILL DROP.
AS LONG AS WE PICK IT UP AND MOVE ON.
I THINK THIS FILM WILL RESONATE WITH WORKING MOTHERS EVERYWHERE.
THEY WILL SEE A REFLECTION OF THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR CHILDREN IN THE LETTERS, IN THE MOMENTS THAT THEY FEEL LIKE THEIR CHILDREN MISSED OUT ON OR THEY MISSED OUT ON.
>> I FINALLY WANT TO ASK YOU, DIANE, BECAUSE YOU ARE IN THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE WITH YOUR HUSBAND.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT LIFE THAT MAKES YOU PLEASED, SATISFIED AT THE AGE OF 77, THAT YOU CAN SAY, YES, THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT?
>> FIRST, IT'S FAMILY.
WHEN YOU LOOK BACK -- I'M NOW ENTERING HOPEFULLY THE WINTER OF MY LIFE, WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THE END.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE FAMILY.
THE THING I'M PROUDEST OF, MY BEST SAMPLES ARE MY FAMILY.
THEN IT'S REALLY HONORING LIFE.
MY MOTHER DID NOT DIE.
FOR WHATEVER MIRACLE, SHE DID NOT DIE.
SHE SURVIVED.
SHE PUT THE TORCH OF FREEDOM IN MY HAND.
ALL I DID, TRIED TO DO ALL MY LIFE, IS HONORING LIFE.
>> IT'S BEEN AN AMAZING LIFE.
IT CONTINUES TO BE.
I WANT TO MAYBE END UP WITH YOU, SHARMEEN.
YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF DOCUMENTARIES.
YOU ARE THE FIRST WOMAN AND THE FIRST WOMAN OF COLOR TO DIRECT A "STAR WARS."
>> YES.
LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT.
>> COME ON, MORE THAN THAT.
THAT'S GIGANTIC.
THAT'S MASSIVE.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I WILL SAY THIS.
FOLLOWING YOUR OWN YELLOW BRICK ROAD HAS BEEN VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.
I HAVE CHARTED MY OWN TRAJECTORY FROM THE COUNTRY I COME FROM RIGHT HERE TO HOLLYWOOD.
I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE A NUMBER OF WOMEN HAVE LEFT THE DOOR OPEN FOR ME TO WALK THROUGH.
I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I HOPE WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.
THAT'S SOMETHING I HOPE I WILL BE ABLE TO DO FOR OTHER WOMEN.
>> THAT'S A REALLY NICE WAY TO END IT.
>> THAT IS REALLY THE REASON WHY WE DID THIS MOVIE.
>> IT'S A LOVELY WAY TO END.
DIANE von FURSTENBERG, SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
>> POWERHOUSES BOTH, DIANE von FURSTENBERG AND SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY.
>>> THIS WEEK, THE UNITED STATES IS MARKING JUNETEENTH.
NEARLY 160 YEARS LATER, THE FINANCIAL INEQUALITY BETWEEN AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THEIR WHITE PEERS REMAINS STARK.
AS OUR NEXT GUESTS LAY OUT IN THEIR NEW BOOK, "FIFTEEN CENTS ON THE DOLLAR: HOW AMERICANS MADE THE BLACK-WHITE WEALTH GAP."
THE CO-AUTHORS DISCUSS POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS TO CLOSING THAT GAP.
>> THANKS.
LOUISE STORY, EBONY REED, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "FIFTEEN CENTS ON THE DOLLAR: HOW AMERICANS MADE THE BLACK-WHITE WEALTH GAP."
EBONY, LET ME START WITH YOU.
EXPLAIN THAT PHRASE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
15 CENTS IS THE TYPICAL AMOUNT OF WEALTH A BLACK FAMILY HAS IN AMERICA FOR EVERY $1 A TYPICAL WHITE FAMILY HAS.
THIS IS DATA FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
>> LOUISE, WHY WRITE THE STORY IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>> EBONY AND I WERE WORKING TOGETHER AT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" IN THE SUMMER OF 2020.
AS COLLEAGUES AND AS FRIENDS, WE STARTED HAVING MANY OF THE SAME CONVERSATIONS I'M SURE YOU HAD AND MANY PEOPLE YOU KNOW HAD, WHICH IS, WOW, WHERE DO THINGS STAND ON RACE TODAY?
IN PARTICULAR SINCE WE WERE AT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," WHERE DO THINGS STAND ON RACE AND MONEY?
WE READ BOOKS TOGETHER.
WE LOOKED UP DATA.
I WILL NEVER FORGET WHEN WE CAME UP WITH HOW MANY CENTS ON THE DOLLAR IT WAS, I CALLED UP EBONY AND I SAID, DID YOU REALIZE THIS FIGURE?
WE THOUGHT IT WAS FASCINATING.
WE FOUND OUT BY LOOKING AROUND THAT THERE WAS NOT A BOOK THROUGH HISTORY.
IT DIDN'T EXIST.
WE DECIDED WE WERE THE PERFECT PAIR TO WRITE IT.
>> LOUISE, I CAN UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH THE PANDEMIC AND THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT.
THERE'S A WEALTH GAP.
WHAT WAS FASCINATING TO YOU ABOUT THE DIMENSION OF RACE IN THIS?
>> ACTUALLY, THERE'S A MORE SEVERE WEALTH GAP AMONG RACES THAN THERE ARE JUST AMONG WHITE AMERICANS.
YOU ARE CORRECT, THERE'S A DISTRIBUTIONAL AFFECT THAT AFFECTS ALL PEOPLE.
THERE'S A WEALTH GAP AMONG WHITE AMERICANS.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHITE VERSUS BLACK AMERICANS AT EVERY INCOME LEVEL, THERE IS A WEALTH GAP.
WHITE AMERICANS, EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE LESS MONEY THAN THE RICHEST WHITE AMERICANS, STILL HAVE MORE WEALTH COMPARED TO BLACK AMERICANS WITH THE SAME INCOME.
FRANKLY, THAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME, BECAUSE I GREW UP IN THE 1980s.
I REMEMBER WHEN MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY BECAME A HOLIDAY IN THE SAME SORT OF CELEBRATORY WAY AS JUNETEENTH BECAME A HOLIDAY.
I GREW UP HEARING THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT HAD WORKED AND THAT THINGS HAD BEEN SOLVED.
FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND IN THE NUMBERS -- I HAVE BEEN A FINANCIAL EDITOR AND FINANCIAL REPORTER ALL MY CAREER.
UNDERSTANDING FROM THE NUMBERS THAT THERE'S STILL SUCH A BIG GAP, I THOUGHT IT WAS NOTEWORTHY AND PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW IT.
>> WHY DID YOU FOCUS ON ATLANTA?
YOU GO BACK ALL THE WAY TO RACE RIOTS IN 1906 AND FURTHER ON HOW THIS WEALTH GAP TRANSLATES INTO HOW WE SEE A MODERN AMERICAN CITY.
>> RIGHT.
ATLANTA HAS BEEN CONSIDERED THE BLACK MECCA BECAUSE OF ITS LARGE POPULATION OF BLACK AMERICANS THERE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THAT'S A PLACE, BECAUSE OF OPPORTUNITY, THAT BLACK AMERICANS CAN MAKE IT.
IN OUR BOOK, WE HAVE A CHAPTER ON THE TWO ATLANTAS.
WE REALLY SHINE A LIGHT ON THE BLACK WEALTH GAP.
BECAUSE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BLACK AMERICANS WHO ARE DOING WELL ECONOMICALLY AND THE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WHO ARE NOT.
BECAUSE OUR BOOK COVERS BLACK AMERICANS FROM ALL AREAS, PEOPLE WILL SEE THE DIFFERENCES IN ADDITION TO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE WHITE-BLACK WEALTH GAP.
>> YOU FOLLOW GREENWOOD BANK.
FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF ATLANTA WHO MIGHT NOT BE AWARE OF IT, WHY WAS THIS BANK SIGNIFICANT?
THIS WAS AN ATTEMPT TO TRY TO RIGHT WRONGS.
>> GREENWOOD BANK AS IT WAS FIRST CALLED WAS SET UP IN THE SUMMER OF 2020 BY NOTABLE PEOPLE.
THE RAPPER KILLER MIKE, HE WON THREE GRAMMYS.
HE SET IT UP IN PARTNERSHIP WITH ANDREW YOUNG, A FORMER MAYOR OF ATLANTA AND A CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER.
THEY ARE FAMOUS.
PEOPLE ADMIRE THEM.
THEY SAID THAT THE MISSION OF THIS NEW COMPANY WOULD BE TO HELP CLOSE RACIAL WEALTH GAPS.
THAT REALLY EXCITED AND INTERESTED PEOPLE.
WE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN OUT AT MANY DEMONSTRATIONS IN THE SUMMER OF 2020.
YES, THEY WERE DEMONSTRATING ABOUT THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.
BUT THEY WERE ALSO DEMONSTRATING AROUND SYSTEMIC INEQUITIES.
MONEY WAS ON MANY PEOPLE'S MINDS.
THIS OFFERED A SOLUTION.
PEOPLE ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY SIGNED UP.
THIS IS A NATIONAL COMPANY.
IT'S A TECHNOLOGY COMPANY THAT IS A BANKING PLATFORM.
THEY WERE VERY EXCITED.
THEY WERE HOPING GREENWOOD WOULD MAKE LENDING MORE INCLUSIVE.
>> DID IT WORK?
>> SO FAR, GREENWOOD HAS NOT HAD THE TRACTION AND THE EFFECT THAT PEOPLE WERE HOPING FOR AT THE BEGINNING.
I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, STARTUPS TAKE A LONG TIME TO COME TO FRUITION.
THE STORY IS NOT FULLY TOLD.
WE THINK THE FOUNDERS HAD REALLY GOOD INTENTIONS.
IT'S A HARD PATH TO PURSUE TO CHANGE THINGS.
REMEMBER, THE WHOLE FINANCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE REALLY IS SET UP AND RUN BY LARGELY WHITE-OWNED ENTITIES.
FOR SOMEBODY TO COME IN AND TRY GO SOMETHING WITH BLACK CAPITAL, IT'S DIFFICULT TO CHANGE THINGS.
>> YOU HAVE A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK.
SHE SAYS IT'S MORE DIFFICULT FOR BLACK ENTREPRENEURS TO GET STARTED.
BLACK AMERICANS HAVE FEWER CONTACTED WHO CAN FORM BUSINESS PARTNERSHIPS AND INVEST.
PART OF IT IS GETTING A LOAN.
NUMEROUS STUDIES HAVE SHOWN BLACK BUSINESSOWNERS HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED EQUALLY.
BLACK AMERICANS ARE NOT OFFERED AS MANY CREDIT OPTIONS AS WHITE BORROWERS.
EVEN WHEN BLACK AMERICANS BECOME ENTREPRENEURS, THEY SOMETIMES STRUGGLE TO GET CAPITAL TO SUPPORT THEIR OPERATIONS.
WHAT WERE THE EXPERIENCES THAT SHE WAS SHARING WITH YOU ABOUT THIS INEQUITY IN.
>> SHE WAS TRYING TO RAISE UP HER FAMILY'S ECONOMIC FORTUNE.
HER FAMILY HAS FARMLAND IN NORTH CAROLINA.
SHE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH IT AND HOW TO TRANSLATE THAT INTO AN ECONOMIC MOBILITY MOVEMENT FOR HER FAMILY.
SHE TALKED WITH US ABOUT HER STRUGGLES AS A ENTREPRENEUR.
I WOULD LIKE TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OTHER STRUGGLES SHE FACED.
SHE WANTED TO BECOME A HOMEOWNER.
THAT'S ONE OF THE DRIVERS FOR WEALTH IN OUR COUNTRY.
AFTER THREE YEARS OF TRYING, SHE FACED ISSUES WITH UNEMPLOYMENT.
AT THE SAME TIME, SHE WAS TRYING TO START A BUSINESS.
SHE STILL HAD NOT BEEN ABLE TO PURCHASE A HOME THREE YEARS LATER.
>> LOUISE, ONE OF THE CHARACTERS WE MEET IN THE BOOK IS BROOK BACON WHO IS BLACK AND MARRIED TO A WHITE WOMAN.
EVEN IN THE DYNAMIC OF JUST THIS INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIP, YOU ARE ABLE TO TEASE OUT THE DIFFERENT FINANCIAL TREND LINES GOING BACK IN HISTORY THROUGH THEIR FAMILIES.
>> YES.
BROOK AND HIS WIFE WERE AN INTERESTING EXAMPLE.
WE WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO TRACE BACK THEIR FAMILY LINES BACK TO THE 1860s.
THERE'S DATA WE RUN THROUGH THE BOOK ON THE SIZE OF THE BLACK-WHITE WEALTH GAP.
AFTER 1860, THE AVERAGE WHITE FAMILY HAD 58 TIMES THE WEALTH OF THE AVERAGE BLACK FAMILY.
IT TURNED OUT WHEN WE TRACED HER FAMILY BACK, AND WHEN WE TRACED HIS FAMILY BACK, A WHITE FAMILY AND A BLACK FAMILY, THE RATIO OF THEIR WEALTH WAS 58 TO 1.
HERE WE HAD THIS COUPLE LIVING TODAY.
THEIR PRIOR GENERATIONS WERE AT THE AVERAGE OF WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY.
WE UNDERSTOOD THROUGH THEIR GRANDPARENTS, GREAT GRANDPARENTS, ALL THE WAY, THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAPPENED WITH THEM.
HER FAMILY IS NOT A SUPER RICH FAMILY.
BUT THERE WERE THINGS SHE HAD BEEN ABLE TO DO, HER PARENTS HAD BEEN ABLE TO DO.
THEY REALLY GO THROUGH A RACIAL RECKONING IN THE NARRATIVE AND THE STORY OF OUR BOOK BECAUSE THERE WAS A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY IN THE SUMMER OF 2020.
HIS FATHER WAS SHOT BY A POLICE OFFICER.
WE FOLLOWED THE STORY OF WHAT THEY DID TO COME TO TERMS WITH THAT.
WE WENT ON A JUSTICE WALK WITH THEM.
IT WAS A 63-MILE JUSTICE WALK AND HEARD THE STORY.
IN REFLECTING WITH THEM OVER THE YEARS -- WE HAD MANY INTERVIEWS.
AT ONE POINT SHE SAID TO US, SHE HADN'T REALIZED, BUT IN HER BEING A WHITE PERSON AND HER MARRYING A BLACK PERSON THE WAY SHE PUT IT WAS, SHE HAD TAKEN ON SYSTEMIC DEBT.
SHE WAS REFERRING TO THE STUDENT LOANS THAT HE HAD NOT PAID OFF AT THAT POINT.
IT WAS INTERESTING HEARING BOTH OF THEIR PERSPECTIVES OF HOW THEIR LIFE AND THEIR FINANCES AND THE LEGACY OF THEIR RACES WERE INTERTWINED IN THEIR MARRIAGE.
>> EBONY, THIS TRAGEDY THAT LOUISE MENTIONED.
IT LED TO A FINANCIAL WINDFALL.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT MONEY?
>> BROOK TOOK THAT MONEY THAT HE WAS AWARDED FROM THE STATE OF GEORGIA AND HE SHARED IT WITH SOME OF HIS RELATIVES.
HE HAD RELATIVES THAT HAD HELPED BURY HIS FATHER.
HE ALSO WANTED TO HELP HIS MOM.
THEN HE ALSO WAS ABLE TO SAVE THAT MONEY AND HE TALKED WITH US ABOUT HOW IT SET HIM UP FOR GENERATIONAL WEALTH FOR HIS CHILDREN.
HE IS SAVING A PORTION OF THAT TO HELP HIS FAMILY IN THE FUTURE.
OF COURSE, NO AMOUNT OF MONEY CAN EVER REPLACE A LOVED ONE.
>> LOUISE, ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN BROOK'S FATHER'S CASE WAS JAMES WOODALL WHO WAS AT THE TIME THE PRESIDENT OF THE NAACP IN GEORGIA.
HE SERVED EIGHT YEARS IN THE MILITARY.
YOU POINT OUT ALL THESE STRUCTURAL DISADVANTAGES EVEN IN THEIR OWN LIVES.
>> JAMES WOODALL WAS A RISING STAR IN THE NAACP.
YOU PROBABLY SAW HIM ON TELEVISION IN 2020, BECAUSE HE WAS OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE DIFFERENT POLICE SHOOTINGS AND CASES THAT YEAR.
WE EXAMINED HIS FAMILY'S TRAJECTORY AND HIS LIFE.
WHEN HE WAS A CHILD, HIS MOM WAS MOVING HIM AROUND ALL THE TIME.
THEY MOVED MANY, MANY TIMES A YEAR AS THEY STRUGGLED AND AS SHE STRUGGLED TO PAY THE RENT IN MANY PLACES.
SOMETIMES WHEN SHE NEEDED TO GET CREDIT TO KEEP ON THE ELECTRICITY, SHE USED HIS SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER OR HIS SIBLING'S SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.
WHEN HE WAS AN ADULT, HE HAD TARNISHED CREDIT.
SHE TOOK OUT STUDENT LOANS TO HAVE FUNDING TO HELP FEED HER CHILDREN.
HIS MOTHER, I THINK A LOT OF READERS WILL EMPATHIZE WITH HER.
HIS STORY IS VERY MOVING AND IT HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND -- SOMETIMES YOU SEE SOMEONE AT THE FOREFRONT OUT THERE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE FOR THE NAACP AND YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR STORY.
HE LIVED A STORY OF STRUGGLES.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES THROUGH WHEN YOU FOLLOW HIS STORY IS THAT HE PUSHED INSIDE THE NAACP FOR CHANGE.
HE PUSHED FOR THE NAACP TO PAY MORE OF ITS STATE LEADERS.
MANY OF THE POSITIONS ARE VOLUNTEER.
WHEN HE PUSHED FOR REFORM, HE REALLY RUFFLED FEATHERS.
HIS STORY IS A GOOD ONE TO READ.
>> EBONY, IF YOU COULD FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THE STRUCTURAL FORCES OF WHAT REINFORCE -- WHAT CREATED THESE WEALTH GAPS, GOING BACK IN WOODALL'S CASE TO HIS GRANDFATHER AND THE G.I.
BILL, ALL THE WAY TO RED LINING, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIG STRUCTURAL CAUSES FOR AN INCREASE IN THIS WEALTH GAP?
>> I THINK WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING WHEN BLACK AMERICANS WERE ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF WORKING AND NOT BEING PAID.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WEALTH GAP.
AS WE MOVE THROUGH HISTORY, AS LOUISE AND I COVER IN THIS BOOK, YOU PEOPLE WILL SEE POINTS WHERE PROGRAMS WERE IN PLACE, SOMETIMES THEY WERE EXCLUSIONARY, SOMETIMES THERE WERE PROGRAMS THAT HAD -- WERE NOT PROPERLY SET UP IN A WAY FOR BLACK AMERICANS TO PARTICIPATE OR TO THRIVE IN THEM.
YOU MENTIONED THE G.I.
BILL.
THAT'S A GOOD ONE TO MENTION.
WHEN IT WAS SET UP TO BENEFIT VETERANS OF WORLD WAR II, IT WAS FOR ALL VETERANS, REGARDLESS OF RACE.
IT WAS NOT ADMINISTERED AT A FEDERAL LEVEL.
IT WAS ADMINISTERED IN LOCAL COMMUNITIES.
BECAUSE OF THAT AND BECAUSE THERE WAS DISCRIMINATION ON THE LOCAL LEVEL IN SOME COMMUNITIES, MANY BLACK AMERICANS, THE VAST AMOUNT THAT WERE VETERANS AND TRIED TO USE THE BILL WERE NOT ABLE TO.
THERE ARE SOME ESTIMATES THAT LESS THAN 3% OF BLACK AMERICANS WERE ABLE TO USE THE G.I.
BILL FOR HOUSING.
IT WAS, OF COURSE, SET UP FOR HOUSING, EDUCATION AND ALSO THE ABILITY TO START BUSINESSES.
IN OUR BOOK WE HAVE MANY FAMILIES, MORE THAN HALF A DOZEN, THAT WE INTERVIEWED THAT TOLD US THEIR FAMILY STORIES ABOUT HOW THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO USE THE G.I.
BILL, WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE SETUP OF WHITE MIDDLE CLASS IN OUR COUNTRY.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THAT, THIS WAS A POINT IN HISTORY WHERE BLACK AMERICANS -- THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE BENEFIT THAT WOULD HAVE HAD AN ECONOMIC IMPACT FOR MANY OF THEM THAT WERE VETERANS.
>> AND THEIR FAMILIES.
>> EBONY, BOTH OF YOU HAVE DONE A FANTASTIC JOB OF LAYING OUT WHAT GOT US HERE.
YOU ALSO GO KIND OF A STEP FURTHER.
YOU DO HAVE A LIST OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF SOLUTIONS THAT YOU THINK CAN HELP IMPROVE THIS PROBLEM.
IF YOU CAN, SUMMARIZE SOME OF THOSE FOR US.
>> SURE.
ONE OF OUR PERSONAL RECOMMENDATIONS FOR PEOPLE IS THAT AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES, THEY CONSIDER WORKING ON A PROJECT OR INITIATIVE WITH A PERSON WHO IS DIFFERENT FROM THEM SO THEY CAN UNDERSTAND ANOTHER PERSON'S LIVED EXPERIENCE AND SOME OF THE ISSUES THEY ARE FACING TODAY IN SOCIETY.
LOUISE AND I ARE AN EXAMPLE OF THIS.
NOT ONLY HAVE WE WORKED TOGETHER ON THIS BOOK AND WE MAY APPEAR TO PEOPLE WITH THE VISUAL EYE THAT SHE'S WHITE AND I'M BLACK, BUT WE ALSO HAD TO WORK THROUGH GEOGRAPHIC DIFFERENCES TO CREATE THIS BOOK.
I LIVE IN KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI.
SHE'S BASED ON THE EAST COAST.
WE HAD TO WORK THROUGH FAMILY STRUCTURE DIFFERENCES.
SHE'S MARRIED AND HAS THREE CHILDREN.
I'M SINGLE AND WAS WIDOWS IN THE PANDEMIC.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE EQUITABLE?
HOW WOULD WE PAY FOR EXPENSES RELATED TO THE BOOK, SPEND OUR TIME?
WE JUST THINK IF MORE AMERICANS WERE ABLE TO HAVE THIS EXPERIENCE THAT IT WOULD INFLUENCE HOW THEY THINK ABOUT EVERYTHING IN OUR COUNTRY FROM AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND STUDENT LOANS AND OTHER POLICIES, IF THEY COULD UNDERSTAND THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHER PEOPLE.
>> LOUISE, YOU ARE BOTH CHOOSING TO RETURN THE PROFITS FROM THIS BOOK TO DIFFERENT CAUSES.
EXPLAIN THAT.
>> YES.
THE BOOK COVERS MANY THINGS.
ONE OF THE THINGS IT DOES COVER IS HOW SOMETIMES WHITE BUSINESSES OR WHITE ENTITIES HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BLACK AMERICANS.
I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THE TIME AND THE STORIES THAT THE PEOPLE IN OUR BOOK SHARED WITH US.
THEY SHARED THEIR STORIES TO MAKE AN IMPACT.
OF COURSE, AS JOURNALISTS WE DO NOT COMPENSATE PEOPLE FOR THEIR STORIES.
THAT'S A STANDARD JOURNALISM PRACTICE.
I JUST DECIDED EARLY ON THAT I WANTED TO VOLUNTEER COMPLETELY ON THIS PROJECT.
THIS HAS BEEN A THREE-YEAR VOLUNTEER PROJECT FOR ME.
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT I DONATED ALL PROFITS THAT I'M MAKING FROM THE BOOK.
I PLEDGED TO DO THAT PERMANENTLY.
EBONY HAS DONATED A SHARE.
WE ARE DOING THIS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
OUR NUMBER ONE GOAL IS WE WANT TO MAKE 15 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR A NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED STATISTIC.
WE THINK THAT IF MORE AMERICANS KNEW THIS FIGURE, THEY WOULD THINK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT SO MANY IMPORTANT ISSUES IN OUR SOCIETY.
>> IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT WE WEREN'T JUST TALKING ABOUT THEIR STORIES BUT THAT WE ALSO WANTED TO GIVE BACK AND WE WANTED TO CONTRIBUTE.
SO IT WAS A VERY EASY DECISION TO MAKE TO SAY, WE WANT TO SUPPORT CAUSES THAT ARE TIED TO EDUCATION, JOURNALISM, BLACK AMERICANS.
SO ON OUR SITE, NOT ONLY CAN PEOPLE LEARN MORE ABOUT THE BOOK, BUT THEY CAN LEARN ABOUT THE EVENTS THAT WE ARE HAVING AROUND THE COUNTRY AT COMMUNITY SYMPOSIUMS.
WE HAVE BEEN HAVING THEM AROUND THE COUNTRY.
WE HAVE MORE STOPS TO MAKE BEFORE JULY 1.
PEOPLE CAN READ ABOUT THE NON-PROFITS THAT WE ARE SUPPORTING THROUGH THIS BOOK.
>> THE BOOK IS "FIFTEEN CENTS ON THE DOLLAR: HOW AMERICANS MADE THE BLACK-WHITE WEALTH GAP."
LOUISE STORY, EBONY REED, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, A TALE OF TEAM WORK, HOPE AND BELUGA WALES.
AS RUSSIA CONTINUES ITS ASSAULT ON UKRAINE, CITIES CLOSE TO FRONT LINES AREN'T JUST HAVING TO MOVE THEIR HUMAN POPULATIONS, BUT THE ANIMALS ARE IN PERIL AS WELL.
CREATURES LIKE THIS 15-YEAR-OLD AND 14-YEAR-OLD WALES IN A ZOO.
THIS WEEK, A DARING EFFORT LED BY A TEAM OF EXPERTS SAW THE WALES MOVED TO ODESSA AND FLY OFF TO SPAIN WHERE THEY REACHED THEIR NEW HOME, AN AQUARIUM, IN THE EARLY HOURS OF WEDNESDAY MORNING, SAFE AND SOUND.
>>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.