June 22, 2023

♪♪ >>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THINGS ARE NEVER GOING TO BE AS CLEAN AS YOU LIKE BECAUSE THE WORLD IS COMPLICATED.

>> FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA SITS DOWN FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

SHE JOINS US FROM ATHENS WITH THE HEADLINES.

>>> THEN, INDIAN PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI MEETS WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE GET THE LATEST ON THE STATE VISIT WITH VETERAN JOURNALIST AND INDIA WATCHER BOBBY GHOSH.

>>> PLUS, WESTERN OFFICIALS FEAR THE UKRAINIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS OFF TO A BUMPY START.

HISTORIAN MARGARET MacMILLAN JOINS ME TO DISCUSS WHAT WORLD WAR I CAN TEACH US ABOUT TODAY'S WARFARE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD.

>> EXERCISE IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST POTENT TOOL/INTERVENTION THAT WE HAVE TO EFFECT BOTH OF THE METRICS WE CARE ABOUT.

LIFE SPAN AND HEALTH SPAN.

>> THE SCIENCE AND ART OF LONGEVITY.

DR. PETER ATTICA TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW WE CAN PREPARE OUR BODIES FOR THE LAST DECADES OF OUR LIVES.

>>> AND FINALLY -- >> HE SAYS YOU HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT IDEA ABOUT SEMICOLONS THAN HE DOES.

>> MM-HMM.

>> BECAUSE I AM AN EDITOR.

HE IS JUST A WRITER.

>> WE REMEMBER THE LEGENDARY EDITOR ROBERT GOTTLIEB.

FILMMAKER LIZZIE GOTTLIEB TALKS TO CHRISTIANE ABOUT HER FATHER'S 50-YEAR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GREAT BIOGRAPHER ROBERT CARO.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

SHE IS IN ATHENS AND HAS JUST HAD AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.

HE IS THERE TO HOST HIS FOUNDATION'S LEADER SUMMIT AND THERE IS NO SETTING MORE FITTING THAN GREECE, THE BIRTHPLACE OF DEMOCRACY SELF FOR THEIR CONVERSATION ABOUT ITS VERY SURVIVAL.

AND CHRISTIANE JOINS ME FROM ATHENS WITH ALL OF THE DETAILS FROM THEIR CONVERSATION.

YOU DID INDEED HAVE A FASCINATING INTERVIEW WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT COVERING A WIDE RANGE OF THE WORLD'S MOST PRESSING ISSUES.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

OF COURSE, THE MOST PRESSING ISSUE ACCORDING TO PRESIDENT OBAMA AND SO MANY PEOPLE HERE IS THE PRESERVATION OF DEMOCRACY.

AND HE BASICALLY SAID DEMOCRACY HE THOUGHT WOULD WIN AS LONG AS CITIZENS ARE COMMITTED TO WORKING FOR IT AND TO WORK IT MANGE IT SURVIVE.

HE ADMITTED THAT THERE ARE CREAKY INSTITUTIONS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, BEEN SUCH AN ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY BOTH IN THE U.P.S.

AND AROUND THE WORLD, AND THAT THESE NOW NEED TO BE STRENGTHENED AGAIN AND REBUILT.

WHEN I ASKED HIM SPECIFICALLY ABOUT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY AND, YOU KNOW, IN THIS INCREASINGLY AUTOCRATIC WORLD, I ASKED HIM WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THE PRESIDENT TRYING TO HAVE A THAW WITH CHINA AND WE KNOW INVITING PRIME MINISTER MODI TO A STATE VISIT IN WASHINGTON TODAY.

THIS IS THE CONVERSATION AROUND THAT PART.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, A MAN WHO YOU KNOW EXTREMELY WELL, HAS MADE THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY THE SORT OF CENTERPIECE OF HIS ADMINISTRATION.

IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT RIGHT NOW THERE IS ALSO NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, THREATS TO DEMOCRACY BY DICTATORSHIPS AND AUTOCRATS, BUT ILLIBERAL DEMOCRACY AS WELL.

HE HAS CALLED THE PRESIDENT OF CHINA DICTATOR AND THEY ARE STICKING WITH IT.

HE IS ALSO HOSTING AS WE SPEAK THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA, MODI, WHO IS CONSIDERED AUTOCRATIC OR AT LEAST ILLIBERAL DEMOCRAT.

WHAT IS THE POINT, I GUESS, OR HOW SHOULD A PRESIDENT ENGAGE WITH THOSE KINDS OF LEADERS?

EITHER IN THE NAMING OF THEM OR IN THE DEALING WITH THEM.

LOOK, IT'S COMPLICATED.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS A LOT OF EQUITIES, AND WHEN I WAS PRESIDENT I WOULD DEAL WITH FIGURES AND IN SOME CASES WHO WERE ALLIES WHO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU PRESSED ME IN PRIVATE, TO THEY RUN THEIR GOVERNMENTS AND THEIR POLITICAL PARTIES IN WAYS THAT I WOULD SAY ARE IDEALLY DEMOCRATIC?

I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NO.

>> WANT TO NAME NAMES?

>> OF COURSE NOT.

BUT YOU HAD TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPORTANT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS.

THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, A RANGE OF ECONOMIC INTERESTS.

I DEALT WITH CHINA TO GET THE PARIS ACCORDS DONE.

I DEALT WITH MODI TO GET THE PARIS ACCORDS DONE BECAUSE I THINK CLIMATE CHANGE IS SOMETHING THAT TRANSCENDS ANY PARTICULAR MOMENTARY ISSUES.

IT'S A PROBLEM THAT HUMANITY'S GOT TO DEAL WITH OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL DECADES IN A SERIOUS WAY.

I DO THINK THAT IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHERE HE OR SHE CAN TO UPHOLD THOSE PRINCIPLES AND TO CHALLENGE WHETHER BEHIND CLOSED DOORS OR IN PUBLIC TRENDS THAT ARE TROUBLING.

AND SO I'M LESS CONCERNED ABOUT LABELS THAN I AM CONCERNED ABOUT SPECIFIC PRACTICES.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO SAY THAT IF YOU HAVE UIGHURS IN CHINA WHO ARE BEING PLACED IN MASS CAMPS AND REEDUCATED, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, THAT'S A PROBLEM.

THAT'S A CHALLENGE TO ALL OF US, AND WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

I THINK IT IS TRUE THAT IF THE PRESIDENT MEETS WITH PRIME MINISTER MODI, THEN THE PROTECTION OF THE MUSLIM MINORITY IN A MAJORITY HINDU INDIA, THAT'S SOMETHING WORTH MENTIONING BECAUSE -- AND BY THE WAY, IF I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH PRIME MINISTER MODI, WHO I KNOW WELL, PART OF MY ARGUMENT WOULD BE THAT IF YOU DO NOT PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF ETHNIC MINORITIES IN INDIA, THEN THERE IS A STRONG POSSIBILITY INDIA AT SOME POINT STARTS PULLING APART AND WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU START GETTING THOSE KINDS OF LARGE INTERNAL CONFLICTS.

SO THAT WOULD BE CONTRARY TO THE INTERESTS, NOT JUST A MUSLIM INDIA BUT ALSO A HINDU INDIA.

SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS HONESTLY OF YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO HAVE -- THINGS ARE NEVER GOING TO BE AS CLEAN AS YOU'D LIKE BECAUSE THE WORLD IS COMPLICATED.

>> COMPLICATED INDEED.

AND I, OBVIOUSLY, LEAVE THE INDIA CONVERSATION TO YOU LATER IN THE PROGRAM.

BUT SUFFICE TO SAY, THE UNITED STATES IS BANKING OR TRYING TO MAKE SURE IT HAS INDIA AS A POTENTIAL BULL WART TO ITS DETERIORATING RELATIONS WITH CHINA OF THE PRESIDENT ALSO TALKED ABOUT DEMOCRACY IN THE UNITED STATES, THE THREATS THERE, AND HE TALKED ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE TALKED ABOUT PRESIDENT BIDEN, HE TALKED ABOUT THE 2024 ELECTION, HE TALKED ABOUT DEMOCRACY AT STAKE IN UKRAINE, WHICH I KNOW YOU ARE ALSO GOING TO TALK ABOUT.

SO IT WAS A VERY WIDE RANGING CONVERSATION AND YOU WILL SEE THE WHOLE CONVERSATION, INCLUDING WITH HIS YOUTH LEADERS, WHICH ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO NEXT GENERATION OF DEMOCRACY BUILDERS, THAT WILL BE ON THIS SHOW THIS TIME TOMORROW.

BIANNA, BACK TO YOU.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOES NOT GIVE MANY INTERVIEWS.

IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ON THE QUESTIONS YOU ASKED ABOUT, CHALLENGES GLOBALLY AND DOMESTICALLY IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY.

REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING IT IN FULL TOMORROW ON THIS PROGRAM AS YOU SAID.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

BEAUTIFUL BACKDROP BEHIND YOU.

IT IS STUNNING.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, LET'S GET SOME MORE ON U.S./INDIA RELATIONS NOW.

INDIAN PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI IS AT THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING WITH U.S. PRESIDENT BIDEN.

NOW AS PART OF HIS VISIT THE PRIME MINISTER WILL HAVE THE RARE HONOR OF ADDRESSING CONGRESS FOR A SECOND TIME, PUTTING IN THE COMPANY OF WINSTON CHURCHILL AND NELSON MANDELA BEFORE HIM.

JOINING ME ON IMPORTANCE OF THIS TRIP IS BOBBY GHOSH, A MEMBER OF BLOOMBERG'S EDITORIAL BOARD.

HE LED ONE INDIA'S LARGEST NEWSPAPERS THE HINDU SUN TIMES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GIVEN THE DEMOCRATIC BACK SLIDING I KNOW AND YOU ARE JOURNALISTS AND POLITICIANS IN BOTH PARTIES HERE IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE RAISED IN INDIA, WHETHER IT'S A PERSECUTION OF RELIGIOUS MINORITIES OR JOURNALISTS IN INDIA, HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT WITH WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND WHAT WE ARE HEARING FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF WHO HAS CLAIMED THAT HUMAN RIGHTS IS AT THE, QUOTE, HEART OF HIS FOREIGN POLICY?

>> WELL, YOU DON'T SQUARE IT.

IT CAN'T BE SQUARED.

THE OPTICS OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN TODAY IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE OPTICS OF WHAT WE SEE FROM INDIA WHEN WE SEE THE ACTIONS OF THE MODI GOVERNMENT CANNOT BE RECONCILED WITH EACH OTHER.

IT'S ALL VERY WELL FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO CLAIM THAT DEMOCRACY IS AT THE HEART OF HIS FOREIGN POLICY, BUT THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS OTHERWISE.

AS PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID IN HIS INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANE, POLITICS IS MESSY, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS ARE MESSY, AND WE CAN ALL GET BEHIND THAT IDEA.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SHOULD MEET WITH AND GREET THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA.

IT IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST COUNTRY.

IT IS FLAWED AS IT IS.

IT IS A DEMOCRACY.

INDIA AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE SOME INTERESTS IN COMMON.

IT IS THE WAY THIS IS BEING CONDUCTED, THIS POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE.

THAT IS WHAT IS GRATING.

THAT CATCHES THE EYE.

AND WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT MAY SAY TO MODI PRIVATELY, HE CAN PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MODI'S CONDUCT TOWARDS MINORITIES IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

WHAT YOU SAY IN PRIVATE DOESN'T REALLY COUNT FOR VERY MUCH IF THE PUBLIC SHOW IS SO WARM AND SO FRIENDLY.

IT KIND OF OVERRIDES EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> THIS INDIA CHARM OFFENSIVE FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REALLY SEEMS CENTERED ALL AROUND CHINA.

THIS INDIA APPROACH AND ITS POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE, AS YOU DESCRIBE, AND REALLY IS FOCUSED ON THIS IDEA THAT INDIA, GIVEN THAT IT IS A GROWING GLOBAL POWER AND DEFINITELY A REGIONAL POWER, IS SORT OF A COUNTERBALANCE AND A COUNTERWEIGHT TO AN INCREASINGLY BELLIGERENT CHINA.

I WANT TO YOU TO RESPOND TO AN ARGUMENT THAT ED LOOSE FROM THE "FINANCIAL TIMES" SAID.

THE RISK IS THAT ALL THINGS CHINA MEASURE PRODUCES THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT BIDEN WANTS.

MOST THE OF THE WORLD PREFERS NOT TO MAKE THE CHOICE BETWEEN AMERICAN CHINA.

THE LAST THING THE SOUTH NEEDS IS A ZERO-SUM DILEMMA.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT TAKE?

>> I THINK THE PREMISE THAT INDIA WILL BE A BULWARK AGAINST CHINA IS DEEPLY FLAWED JUST BECAUSE INDIA AND THE UNITED STATES FOR SEPARATE SETS OF REASONS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CHINA'S GROWING POWER DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE EACH OTHER'S BACK.

CERTAINLY DOESN'T MEAN THAT INDIA IS GOING TO HAVE AMERICA'S BACK IF IT COMES TO ANY DIRECT CONFRONTATION ABOUT WITH CHINA.

INDIA WILL LOOK OUT FOR THE OWN INTERESTS, AS ANY COUNTRY SHOULD.

AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE WAR WITH UKRAINE, INDIA'S INTERESTS ARE TRANSACTIONAL, TO DO WITH THINGS LIKE CHEAP OIL FROM RUSSIA.

IT'S NOT REALISTIC TO EXPECT JUST BECAUSE INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY IT WILL STAND UP FOR OUR DEMOCRACIES AND THAT IT WILL ALIGN ITSELF TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHICH IS ANOTHER ARGUMENT AGAINST GIVING MODI THIS KIND OF SORT OF SPECIAL TREATMENT.

THE EXPECTATIONS THAT WE ARE -- ON THIS RELATIONSHIP ARE TOO GREAT.

INDIA IS NOT GOING TO HAVE AMERICA'S BACK WHEN IT COMES TO CHINA.

>> SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THE MOST EFFECTIVE APPROACH IS TO DEALING WITH INDIA BECAUSE NO DOUBT CHINA THREAT TO INDIA.

THERE ARE SOME ECONOMIC NEWS HEADLINES COMING OUT OF THIS MEETING ALREADY, SPECIFICALLY ON THE DEFENSE FRONT.

IT APPEARS THAT INDIA WILL BE BUYING SOME WEAPONS FROM THE UNITED STATES, SPECIFICALLY DRONES.

THERE HAS BEEN RECENT SKIRMISHES BETWEEN INDIA AND CHINA JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.

WHAT IS AN EFFECTIVE WAY THAT THE U.S. CAN APPROACH INDIA WHEN IT COMES TO CHINA'S INCREASED BELLIGERENCE?

>> INDIA SHOULD BE CLEAR-EYED ABOUT IT.

THERE ARE ECONOMIC INTERESTS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

INDIA IS A GIGANTIC MARKET, A MARKET THAT HAS POTENTIAL.

THERE IS SOME -- THERE IS HOPE AT LEAST AMONG MANY AMERICAN COMPANIES THAT ARE TRYING TO REDUCE THEIR FOOTPRINT IN CHINA THAT INDIA MIGHT BE A PLAYING THEY CAN DO SOME THEIR MANUFACTURING.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT ANY GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON SHOULD PURSUE THAT LINE IF INDIA WANTS TO BUY AMERICAN-MADE WEAPONS, EXCELLENT.

THAT'S GOOD NEWS FOR AMERICAN DEFENSE INDUSTRY.

TRADE RELATIONS WITH INDIA CAN AND SHOULD BE PURSUED FOR THE MAXIMUM DEGREE POSSIBLE.

I WOULD LIKEN TO IND AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH, SAY, INDONESIA, ANOTHER VERY LARGE COUNTRY IN ASIA THAT HAS CONCERNS ABOUT CHINA'S GROWING AGGRESSION.

BUT TO SUGGEST THAT JUST BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO COUNTRIES THAT HOLD ELECTIONS EVERY FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW BOUND BY SOME SORT OF MORAL AND ETHICAL FRAMEWORK, I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE ARGUMENT BEGINS TO FRAY AND FALL DOWN.

>> DOES PRESIDENT BIDEN DESERVE CREDIT FOR RESURRECTING THE SO-CALLED QUAD SECURITY GROUP THAT INCLUDES INDIA, JAPAN AND AUSTRALIA IN YOUR VIEW?

>> IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE THESE KINDS OF ALLIANCES ARE EXCELLENT ON PAPER, BUT YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW GOOD THEY ARE UNTIL, AND HEAVEN FORBID THIS SHOULD HAPPEN, UNTIL THEY ARE FACED WITH A DIRECT MILITARY CHALLENGE.

IT'S EASY TO SEE WHY INDIA PARTICIPATES IN THE ACCORD.

GETS A LOT FROM IT.

WHETHER THAT MEANS INDIA WILL COME TO AMERICA'S ASSISTANCE SHOULD AN OCCASION ARISE, WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

AND, HOPEFULLY, WE NEVER GET TO FIND OUT.

BETTER TO HAVE INDIA PARTICIPATE IN NAVAL AND MILITARY EXERCISES SHARING OF INTELLIGENCE THAN NOT HAVE IT DO THAT.

BUT, AGAIN, LET'S NOT EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM THEM.

>> YOU MENTIONED RUSSIA AND INDIA'S LONG HISTORY AND PARTNERSHIP WITH RUSSIA.

I WAS INTERESTED AFTER HEARING AN INTERVIEW WITH THE INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTER WHO FINDS THE CONDEMNATION FROM THE BEST THAT INDIA IS NOT CONDEMNING THE WAR IN UKRAINE PUZZLING AND HE SAID MAINTAINING STRONG AND GOOD RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA IS CENTRAL TO THEIR POLICY AND THAT MAINTAINING CHEAP OIL IS SOMETHING THAT BENEFITS THEM.

DOES THAT GIVE YOU PAUSE IN TERMS OF ANY ROLE INDIA, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE THAT INDIA MAY PLAY IN ENDING OR BRINGING THIS WAR TO AN END?

>> INDEED.

IT GOES TO THE POINT I WAS MAKING EARLIER.

INDIA'S RELATIONS TEND TO BE TRANSACTIONAL RATHER THAN STRATEGIC OR BASED ON ANY COMMON VALUES.

THE LINE THAT WE KEEP HEARING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT IS TRANSACTIONAL.

INDIA'S GETTING CHEAP OIL FROM RUSSIA AND IT'S HAPPY TO PLAY THE NEUTRAL CARD IN THE CONTEST, IN THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

THAT CHEAP OIL, BY THE WAY, IS NOT HELPING ORDINARY INDIANS.

PRICE OF GAS IN INDIA HAS NOT COME COUNSEL.

MUCH OF THAT OIL IS BEING TURNED INTO SORT OF -- IS BEING REFINED AND SOLD TO EUROPEAN MARKETS.

SO A SMALL NUMBER OF BIG BUSINESS HOUSES ARE BENEFITING.

ORDINARY INDIANS ARE NOT, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTER IS CAREFUL NOT TO STATE.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH INDIA BEING TRANSACTIONAL.

LOTS OF COUNTRIES ARE THAT WAY.

LET'S JUST NOT PRETEND THAT IT IS OTHERWISE.

>> WELL, COULD INDIA DO MORE, LET'S SAY, FROM A HUMANITARIAN STANDPOINT, AND STEP IN AND PRESSURING VLADIMIR PUTIN?

I AM BRINGING THIS UP BECAUSE TODAY A RUSSIAN COURT NOW UPHELD ITS EXTENDED DETENTION OF "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTER EVAN GERSHKOVICH, THE UNITED STATES SAYING HE IS WRONGFULLY DETAINED, A CREDITED JOURNALIST ACCUSED OF TREASON, THOUGH THEY PRODUCED NO EVIDENCE, SUPPORTING THAT.

IS INDIA AT LEAST IN A POSITION WHERE THEY COULD HELP ON THESE TYPES OF FRONTS?

>> WELL, IN THEORY, YES.

REMEMBER, INDIA'S TRACK RECORD IN PRESS FREEDOMS UNDER THE MODI GOVERNMENT IS ONE OF THE WORST IN RECENT HISTORY.

INDIA SLID VERY, VERY FAR DOWN ON LIST OF COUNTRIES THAT SORT OF WHERE PRESS FREEDOMS ARE OBSERVED.

IF MODI WERE ININ THEORY, AND I CAN'T SEE HIM DO THIS, EXTEND AN EFFORT WITH PUTIN TO TRY TO HAVE EVAN AND OTHER HOSTAGES RELEASED, HE RISKS PUTIN TURNING AROUND AND TELLING HIM, LISTEN, DON'T YOU BE GIVING ME LECTURES ABOUT HOW TO TREAT JOURNALISTS.

LOOK WHAT YOU DO.

>> PUTIN ALWAYS RAISES THE IDEA OF WHATABOUTISM.

YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT.

THAT MAY BE A LOST CAUSE.

BOBBY GHOSH, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, WE CONTINUE ON THIS VEIN OF DEMOCRACY AND ITS MANY THREATS WITH A FOCUS ON UKRAINE UP NEXT.

AS A COUNTEROFFENSIVE CONTINUES, UKRAINE SAYS IT IS MAKING GAINS BUT WESTERN OFFICIALS TELL CNN IT IS, QUOTE, NOT MEETING EXPECTATIONS.

IN A NEW PIECE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS ENTITLED "HOW WARS DON'T END" THE HISTORIAN MARGARET MacMILLAN SAYS SUSTAINED WESTERN SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IS CRUCIAL BOTH NOW AND WHEN THE WAR IS OVER.

BUT SHE ALSO SAYS THAT TURNING RUSSIA INTO A PERMANENT PARIAH COULD LEAD TO A MISERABLE FUTURE FOR BOTH COUNTRIES.

MARGARET MacMILLAN JOINS ME NOW FROM OXFORD, ENGLAND.

IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

LET'S START WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE GIVEN THAT IT IS STILL ONGOING.

I WAS FASCINATED BY THE AMOUNT OF INTEREST THERE IS FROM HISTORIANS AND WAR EXPERTS AS TO WHAT LED TO THE WAR TO BEGIN WITH.

AND THEY ARE TURNING TO SEVERAL HISTORICAL ANALOGIES.

I HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT THIS.

I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, THIS IS OUR FIRST QUESTION, ONE OF THE ANALOGIES IS THE PARIS PEACE CONFERENCE IN 1919 AND THE OTHER IS THE MUNICH AGREEMENT IN 1938.

OBVIOUSLY, ONE ARGUMENT IS THAT THE WEST WAS ENCROACHING TOO MUCH ON RUSSIA'S SOVEREIGNTY AND THE OTHER ARGUMENT IS THAT THE WEST WAS ENABLING PUTIN TOO MUCH FOLLOWING HIS 2008 INVASION INTO GEORGIA AND, OBVIOUSLY, THE 2014 ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AND ACQUIESCING TOO MUCH TO THAT AGGRESSION.

YOU SAY THAT THIS ISN'T -- THIS COMPARISON DOESN'T NEATLY APPLY TO CURRENT WAR ITSELF.

YOU EXPLAIN WHY?

>> I DON'T THINK ANALOGIES APPLY NEATLY.

I THINK HISTORY CAN HELP US ASK GOOD QUESTIONS, ASK INTERESTING QUESTIONS.

I THINK WE CAN ARGUE THAT THE WEST DID NOT TREAT RUSSIA WELL AFTER THE END OF THE COLD WAR.

I THINK THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF -- IN THE 1990s, A FEELING THAT THE WEST WON AND RUSSIA HAD LOST, SO THE UNION HAD FALLEN TO PIECES AND I THINK THE EXPANSION OF NATO WAS CARRIED OUT TOO QUICKLY AND ALARMED THE RUSSIANS.

HAVING SAID THAT, NOTHING, I THINK, CAN EXPLAIN AND EXPLAIN AWAY WHAT PRESIDENT PUTIN AND HIS TROOPS HAVE DONE IN INVADING UKRAINE IN THE WAY THEY TREATED THAT COUNTRY.

BUT I THINK WE PERHAPS WERE UNWILLING TO LOOK TOO CLOSELY AT WHAT PUTIN WAS BEGINNING TO DO IN THE 2000s.

I THINK YOU MENTIONED THE 2008 ATTACK ON GEORGIA.

THE INVASION OF UKRAINE AND THE SEIZURE OF CRIMEA IN 2014.

AND I THINK WE COULD HAVE BEEN TOUGHER THEN.

I THINK WILL WASN'T THE WILL TO DO IT AND OTHER THINGS PEOPLE WERE WORRYING ABOUT.

WITH DICTATORS, WE KNOW IF THEY GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING, THEY MAY WELL TRY TO AGAIN.

>> IN YOUR PIECE YOU NOTE A MISTAKE IS THAT ASSUMING THE WAR WOULD BE SHORT AND DECISIVE AND IT'S IRONIC THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN VIEWS HIMSELF AS AN HISTORIAN, THOUGH WE KNOW THAT A LOT OF WHAT HE VIEWS AS HISTORY CAN BE DESCRIBED AS REVISIONIST HISTORY AT BEST.

AND YET HE APPROACHED THIS INVASION THE SAME WAY, ASSUMING THAT WOULD BE QUICK AND KEY SIES I HAVE AND NOW WE ARE A YEAR INTO THE WAR WITH NO END IN SIGHT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT WARS IS YOU THINK YOU CONTROL THEM AND YOU CAN'T.

ONCE YOU STARTED A WAR, IT TAKES ON A COURSE OF ITS OWN.

IT CAN BE UNPREDICTABLE.

A LOT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS ON THE GROUND AND THERE ARE A LOT OF INCALCULABLE FACTORS IN WAR.

AND I THINK IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR THE GERMANS HAD A LOVELY PLAN THEY WERE GOING TO DEFEAT FRANCE IN 40 DAYS AND THEN DEFEAT FRANCE'S ALLY RUSSIA AND QUICKLY INDEED DIDN'T HAPPEN.

ALL THAT THING ABOUT TROOPS GOING AWAY IN 1914, IN THE SUMMER OF 1914, SAYING WE WILL BE HOME BY CHRISTMAS.

MOST DIDN'T COME HOME AND THE WAR WENT ON TO 1918.

AND I THINK THE TEMPTATION THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAD AND I THINK IT'S A -- YOU KNOW, OFTEN A COMMON TEMPTATION, HE LOOKED AT THE FIGURES, HOW POWERFUL RUSSIA WAS, HOW MANY SOLDIERS THEY HAD, EQUIPMENT THEY HAD, AND LOOKED AT UKRAINE, WHICH WAS MUCH SMALLER, WHOSE ARMED FORCES DIDN'T DO WELL IN 201414, DIDN'T HAVE THE EQUIPMENT THAT RUSSIA HAD WHICH WAS A DIVIDED COUNTRY AT THE TIME.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS UNPOPULAR AT THE TIME.

HE FAILED TO RECOGNIZE, A, THE WEAKNESSES IN THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES, WEAKNESSES IN SUPPLIES, WEAKNESSES IN COMMAND.

HE FAILED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE ONE THING THAT WOULD UNITE UKRAINE, UKRAINIANS, WAS IN FACT TO BE INVADED AND UNDERESTIMATED COMPLETELY PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HIMSELF WHO PROVED TO BE THE RIGHT LEADER AT THE RIGHT TIME CAPABLE OF BRINGING UKRAINIANS TOGETHER.

>> AND HE WAS LISTENING TO THE FEW PEOPLE ADVISING HIM WHAT HE WANTED TO HEAR, WHICH IS ALSO ANOTHER FLAW THAT WE TEND TO SEE IN DICTATORS MANY EXPERTS HAVE SAID THAT THE WAY THIS WAR ENDS IN A VICTORY FOR UKRAINE LARGELY DEPENDS ON CONTINUED WESTERN SUPPORT AND A PLEDGE TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

NOW, VLADIMIR PUTIN SEEMS TO BE BETTING THAT THAT PLEDGE AND THAT SUPPORT MAY NOT BE AS LONG LASTING AS UKRAINE HOPES.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANYTHING THAT HISTORY TELLS US ABOUT THAT BET THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS MADE?

>> I DON'T THINK WE OFTEN KNOW HOW WE WILL RESPOND TO SOMETHING UNTIL IT HAPPENED.

IF YOU SAID IN 1941 BEFORE PEARL HARBOR THAT AMERICANS WOULD WANT TO GO TO WAR AGAINST GERMANY AND JAPAN, MOST WOULD HAVE SAID NO.

POLLS SAY THEY'D RATHER STAY AT PEACE.

THE FACT OF PEARL HARBOR CONFRONTED AMERICANS WITH A VERY DIFFERENT SITUATION AND THEY RESPONDED IN A WAY WHICH I THINK SURPRISED MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING THEMSELVES.

I THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN MADE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT WESTERN POWERS WOULD LIKE TO DO AND I THINK THE WEST SURPRISED ITSELF.

I AM SURPRISED THAT NATO HAS HELD TOGETHER THE EUROPEAN UNION HELD TOGETHER ON THIS, COUNTRIES HAVE SUPPORTED UKRAINE SO MUCH.

HOW LONG THAT WILL GO ON OF COURSE IS THE QUESTION AND LIKE EVERYONE I THINK THE UKRAINIANS, THE RUSSIANS, EUROPEANS ARE WATCHING WHAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES VERY CLOSELY BECAUSE IF A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT IS ELECTED, PARTICULARLY PRESIDENT -- IF PRESIDENT TRUMP GETS RE-ELECTED, THEN IT MAY BE A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

A LOT DEPENDS IN WHAT HAPPENS ON THE FIGHTING ON THE GROUND, BUT A LOT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS IN THE U.S. UPCOMING ELECTIONS.

>> IT MAY APPEAR COUNTERINTUITIVE, YOU SAY THOSE ARGUING FOR AN OVERWHELMING VICTORY IN UKRAINE IN THE FALL OF A PUTIN REGIME MAY BE A BIT SHORTSIGHTED AND NOT FOCUSED ENOUGH ON WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES COULD BE FROM THAT AND WHOEVER WOULD REPLACE VLADIMIR PUTIN.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE DANGERS THAT LIE IN THAT?

>> WELL, THERE IS A DANGER THAT SOMEONE MORE TO THE RIGHT, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE, MAY REPLACE HIM.

MY OWN FEELING IS THAT THIS WAS HIS WAR AND I MAY BE WRONG, BUT WHOEVER REPLACES HIM HAD PROBABLY TRY TO GET OUT OF IT.

GETTING OUT OF A WAR, AS WE KNOW, IS OFTEN VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE THERE IS OFTEN SUCH PASSIONS AROUSED BY THE WAR THAT SOMETIMES MAKING PEACE IS VERY DIFFICULT INDEED.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IS THAT RUSSIA'S LEFT WITH A GREAT SENSE OF RESENTMENT, A WAR THAT IT HAS COST IT A LOT, ITS MANAGED TO ALIENATE A GREAT MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES.

SO WILL IT BE A HAPPY RUSSIA?

WILL IT BE A RUSSIA IN WHICH, AS IN GERMANY, AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR, YOU GET PEOPLE WANTING REVENGE.

>> YEAH.

WELL, THE SAD PART IS I REMEMBER THE LAST TIME THERE WAS A HAPPY RUSSIA FOR SUSTAINED PERIOD OF TIME.

MARGARET MacMILLAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

AND FOR EVERYTHING THAT YOU BROUGHT US ABOUT WHAT HISTORY CAN TEACH US ABOUT THE PRESENT DAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WELL, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THAT HE HAS THE SECRET FOR LIVING A LONG, HEALTHY, AND HAPPY LIFE.

DR. PETER ATTICA'S NEW BOOK LAYS OUT A HOW TO GUIDE FOR LONGEVITY FOCUSING ON PREVENTATIVE APPROACHES RATHER THAN TREATMENT.

HE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE BEST HABITS FOR A HEALTHIER LIFE.

>> THANKS.

PETER ATTICA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

IN YOUR NEW BOOK, "OUTLIVE: THE SCIENCE AND ART OF LONGEVITY," YOU ARE NOT JUST TRYING TO HELP US LIVE LONGER, BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO GET US TO BE HEALTHY AS WELL.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE -- YOU KIND OF MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN LIFE SPAN AND HEALTH SPAN.

SPELL THAT OUT.

>> YEAH, LIFE SPAN IS PROBABLY THE EASIER OF THOSE TWO THINGS TO EXPLAIN, WHICH IS, OBVIOUSLY, HOW LONG YOU LIVE.

IN THAT SENSE, ALL OR NONE.

YOU ARE ALIVE OR NOT ALIVE.

UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK OUR MEDICAL SYSTEM MOSTLY FIX EIGHTS ON THAT METRIC.

AND, OBVIOUSLY, WHAT GETS MEASURED GETS MANAGED AS THE OLD SAYING GOES.

WHAT I THINK WE ARE NOT PAYING NEARLY ENOUGH ATTENTION TO IS THE QUALITY OF LIFE.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S CAPTURED IN HEALTH SPAN.

SO THERE IS A COGNITIVE COMPONENT TO THAT.

THERE IS, OBVIOUSLY, A VERY PHYSICAL COMPONENT TO THAT.

THERE IS AN EMOTIONAL COMPONENT TO THAT.

IF YOU DON'T DEFINE METRICS AROUND THOSE THINGS, IT PROBABLY IS NOT SURPRISING WE ARE NOT MANAGING THOSE THINGS AND, THEREFORE, MOST OF THE RESOURCES AND ATTENTION GO TO SIMPLY PROLONGING LIFE EVEN THE EXPENSE OF QUALITY.

>> SO WHEN A PATIENT APPROACHES YOU IN YOUR PRACTICE, WHAT ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU ARE ASKING THEM SO THAT YOU ARE KIND OF ON THE SAME PATH TOGETHER?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE MEDICAL THINGS AND ALL OF THE THINGS THAT DEAL WITH PROLONGING LIFE AS WELL.

WE CERTAINLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND ALL THE RISKS COMING IN WITH RESPECT TO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE TALK ABOUT AS THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF DEATH, CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE, CANCER, ET CETERA.

ON THE HEALTH SPAN SIDE WE SPEND TIME AND ENERGY THINKING ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO IN LAST DECADE OF YOUR LIFE?

THIS BECOMES A VERY IMPORTANT FRAMING QUESTION.

AND THE MORE DETAIL THAT A PERSON PROVIDE, SOMETIMES WITH OUR PRODDING, AS TO WHAT THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO, RIGHT, DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL?

THESE THINGS REQUIRE VERY DELIBERATE PLANNING AND MOST PEOPLE CAN'T DO THESE THINGS IN THE LAST DECADE OF THEIR LIFE UNLESS THEY TRAIN FOR IT.

>> SO YOU TOOK A LOOK AND STUDIED PEOPLE WHO WERE 100 YEARS OLD.

WAS THERE SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD IN COMMON THAT WE CAN APPLY IN OUR LIVES?

>> THE ONE THING THAT IS COMMON TO ALL CENTENARIANS IS THAT FROM THE STANDPOINT OF CHRONIC DISEASE, THEY ARE ABOUT 20 TO 25 YEARS YOUNGER THAN THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE AGE SAYS.

>> WOW.

>> IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR FIRST BRUSH WITH CANCER, THEIR FIRST BRUSH WITH HEART DISEASE, THEIR FIRST BRUSH WITH ANY SORT OF CHRONIC AILMENT IS ABOUT 20 TO 30 YEARS AFTER YOU WOULD EXPECT.

BASED ON THEIR, YOU KNOW, BIRTH CERTIFICATE AGE.

SO THEY HAVE A SUPERPOWER AND THE SUPERPOWER IS THEY DELAY THE ONSET OF CHRONIC DISEASE.

NOW, THE QUESTION, OF COURSE, THE MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION IS, ARE THEY DOING SOMETHING IN ORDER TO GET THAT SUPERPOWER?

RIGHT?

IS IT, YOU KNOW, IS THERE SOME MAGIC DIET OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, I SAY UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE REST OF US WHO DON'T HAVE THOSE GENES, THE ANSWER IS NO.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY MORE LIKELY YOUR OBSERVATION, WHICH IS ON AVERAGE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, CENTENARIANS ARE MORE LIKELY TO SMOKE, TO DRINK, LESS LIKELY TO EXERCISE AND EAT WELL.

AND YET DESPITE THOSE THINGS, THEY HAVE THIS SUPERNATURAL LIFE SPAN.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T LEARN FROM THEM.

WHAT WE LEARN IS WE HAVE TO APPLY TO OURSELVES OTHER TOOLS TO GET THEIR BENEFITS.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE HAVE TO USE NUTRITION, EXERCISE, SLEEP, STRESS, ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS AS TOOLS TO GET WHAT THEY GET FOR FREE GENETICALLY.

WE HAVE TO CREATE A PHASE SHIFT OF TIME IN THE ONSET OF CHRONIC DISEASE.

>> LET'S FIRST TALK ABOUT JUST EXERCISE.

I MEAN, YOU WRITE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT THAT THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST BENEFICIAL THINGS THAT WE COULD BE DOING EARLIER IN OUR LIVES TO PREVENT A LOT OF AILMENTS.

>> EXERCISE IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST POTENT TOOL/INTERVENTION THAT WE HAVE TO EFFECT BOTH OF THE METRICS WE CARE ABOUT.

LIFE SPAN AND HEALTH SPAN.

SO ON THE LIFE SPAN SIDE OF THE EQUATION, HAVING A VERY HIGH DEGREE OF CARDIO RESPIRATORY FITNESS, HAVING HIGH MUSCLE MASS AND HIGH STRENGTH RELATIVE TO YOUR SEX AND AGE IS A BETTER PREDICTOR OF LONGER LIFE, MEANING A GREATER REDUCTION OF ALL CAUSE OF MORTALITY, DEATH FROM ANY CAUSES, THAN ANYTHING ELSE WE HAVE, POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.

THE BENEFIT BESTOWED ON AN INDIVIDUAL FROM BEING VERY HIGH IN THOSE CATEGORIES IS GREATER THAN THE HARM THAT COMES FROM SMOKING, HAVING HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, HAVING TYPE 2 DIABETES, EVEN HAVING KIDNEY DISEASE, WHICH WOULD BE THE STEP RIGHT BEFORE NEEDING A TRANSPLANT.

SO AS MUCH AS WE UNDERSTAND HOW HARMFUL THOSE THINGS ARE, IT'S EVEN MORE BENEFICIAL TO THE INCREDIBLY FIT AND STRONG.

SO IF YOU'RE JUST THINKING ABOUT HOW DO I LIVE LONGER, THAT'S THE TICKET.

ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LEDGER WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF LIFE, THERE SIMPLY IS NO GREATER TOOL TO FOSTER NEURO PROTECTION AND WARD OFF NEURODEGENERATION THAN EXERCISE.

EXERCISE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE IN MAINTAINING YOUR PHYSICAL BODY AS YOU AGE SO YOU CAN DO ALL THOSE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO IN THE LAST DECADE OF LIFE.

>> IS THERE A COMBINATION OF THINGS THAT WILL HELP YOUR BODY PREPARE FOR AGING BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE?

>> YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS ONE DRAW BACK TO EXERCISE, IT'S THAT IT TAKES MORE TIME THAN ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE MIGHT THINK OF AS BEING BENEFICIAL.

FEW THINGS TAKE AS MUCH TIME TO REAP THE FULL BENEFIT FROM AS EXERCISE.

YOU NEED TO BE DOING STRENGTH TRAINING, CARDIO RESPIRATORY TRAINING, AND THAT CARDIO TRAINING NEEDS TO BE AT DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INTENSITY.

8 # TO% AT RELATIVELY LOW INTENSITY.

THE LEVEL OF INTENSITY YOU COULD CARRY OUT A CONVERSATION, ALL BE A STRAINED ONE.

20% OF IT NEEDS TO BE AT A HIGHER LEVEL OF INTENSITY WHERE YOU COULDN'T CARRY ON A CONVERSATION.

THINK FOR THE INDIVIDUAL WHO SAYS, PETER, I AM NOT WILLING TO SPEND MORE THAN 90 MINUTES A WEEK EXERCISING, YES, I WOULD RATHER HAVE THEM, YOU KNOW, FOCUS ON WHAT'S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT I THINK THE BEST APPROACH TO EXERCISE IS, BUT DOING WHATEVER THEY CAN TO GET SOME BENEFITS.

BUT THE WAY I ASK MY PATIENTS IS VERY DIFFERENT.

I START IN REVERSE.

I SAY TELL ME HOW MANY HOURS A WEEK YOU ARE WILLING TO PUT IN THIS.

I HAVE HE CAN PLAND AND SHOWN THEM THE DATA THAT EXPLAINED WHY THIS WILL HAVE A GREATER IMPACT ON THE LENGTH AND QUALITY OF THEIR LIFE THAN ANYTHING THEY WILL EVER DO.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT NUTRITION.

YOU FOR A TIME BEING WERE A BIG FAN OF KETO DIETS AND IN THE BOOK YOU KIND OF WALK THROUGH WHY AND HOW YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND ABOUT THAT.

EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCE HOW SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT NUTRITION IN THE CONTEXT OF AGING?

>> I GO TO GREAT LENGTHS IN THE BOOK TO DETACH FROM DIETS AND REALLY JUST TALK ABOUT NUTRITION AS A BIOCHEMISTRY PHENOMENON.

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT THROUGH BIOCHEMISTRY AND MOLECULES.

THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF YOUR NUTRITION IS BASICALLY THE ENERGY BALANCE IT CREATES IN YOUR BODY.

IN OTHER WORDS, IS A PERSON OVERNOURISHED OR UNDERNOURISHED?

FOR MOST OF OUR EXISTENCE WE HAVE BEEN UNDERNOURISHED.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT 1,000 YEARS AGO, 500 YEARS AGO, 200 YEARS AGO, MOST OF US WERE BARELY GETTING ENOUGH ENERGY, RIGHT.

AND OUR BODIES, OF COURSE, EVOLVED REMARKABLE WAYS TO STORE AND HOLD ON TO ENERGY.

THIS IS WHAT BASICALLY ALLOWED US TO LEAPFROG AHEAD OF ALL OTHER SPECIES IN TERMS OF OUR REMARKABLE BRAINS BECAUSE OUR BRAINS ARE SO ENERGY HUNGRY.

WELL, THAT WORKED REALLY WELL UNTIL OUR, YOU KNOW, MODERN ENVIRONMENT WHICH BASICALLY CREATED SUCH AN ABUNDANCE OF FOOD MOST OF US ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT.

WE ARE OVERNOURISHED.

STRAT NUMBER ONE, YOU HAVE TO REDUCE ENERGY INTAKE.

THERE ARE BASICALLY THREE APPROACHES TO THAT.

EACH OF WHICH CAN WORK, EACH OF WHICH HAS ADVANTAGES, AND EACH OF WHICH HAS DISADVANTAGES.

BROADLY SPEAKING THEY ARE DIRECT CAL ORRICK RESTRICTION, DIETARY RESTRICTION AND TIME RESTRICTION.

TO SAY A BIT MORE ABOUT THEM, DIRECT CALORIC RESTRICTION MEANS YOU JUST DELIBERATELY GO ABOUT EATING LESS WHILE PAYING ATTENTION TO HOW MUCH YOU ARE EATING.

NOT NECESSARILY PAYING ATTENTION TO WHEN YOU ARE EATING OR WHAT YOU ARE EATING, BUT REDUCING THE TOTAL CALORIC BURDEN.

DIETARY RESTRICTION OF WHICH YOU MENTION AN EXAMPLE, KETOGENICS DIET, BUT SO ARE MOST, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, DIET.

YOU JUST RESTRICT CERTAIN ELEMENTS WITHIN THE DIET AND WHAT THAT RESULTS IN IS LESS OVERALL CONSUMPTION.

IT'S AN INDIRECT WAY TO GO ABOUT CALORIE RESTRICTION.

FINALLY, TIME RESTRICTION IS ALSO AN INDIRECT WAY TO GO ABOUT CALORIE RESTRICTING BY CREATING A NARROWER AND NARROWER WINDOW IN WHICH YOU EAT.

IF YOU CREATE A NARROW ENOUGH WINDOW, YOU WILL END UP REDUCING INTAKE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO THE DETAILS HOW EACH HAS A BENEFIT AND EACH OF THESE HAS A RISK, BUT NONE OF THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOU SHOULD DO MINDLESSLY.

EACH ARE THINGS YOU HAVE TO BE PIT FAULTS AND WORK AROUND THEM.

>> YOU SPENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT SLEEP.

WHY IS IT AS IMPORTANT -- I MEAN, I AM SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T GET ENOUGH SLEEP AND I FEEL LIKE IT'S UNDERRATED.

BUT YOUNGER POINTS IN MY LIFE, I DIDN'T REALLY THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH I WAS GETTING.

MAYBE BECAUSE I WAS, OBVIOUSLY, YOUNGER AND I WAS FITTER AND ABLE TO REBOUND FASTER.

BUT NOW IF I DON'T GET A GOOD NIGHT'S REST, IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO PERFORM AT THE SAME LEVEL EVERY DAY.

>> IN THE BOOK I TALKED ABOUT A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY LIKE EVOLUTION DIDN'T MUCK AROUND, RIGHT?

EVOLUTION -- EVERYTHING ABOUT EVOLUTION IS REALLY LASER FOCUSED.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, NO ONE DISPUTES THAT WE ARE OPTIMIZED TO FORAGE FOR FOOD, TO REPRODUCE, TO FEND FOR OURSELVES.

I MEAN, THESE ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS EVOLUTION HONED.

WHY WOULD EVOLUTION HAVE KEPT AROUND THIS BEHAVIOR THAT RENDERS US UNCONSCIOUS FOR EIGHT HOURS A DAY?

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

AND THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD REALLY JUSTIFY THIS IS IF THAT EIGHT HOURS, ONE-THIRD OF OUR LIFE THAT IS SPENT IN UNCONSCIOUSNESS, MUST BE DOING SOMETHING SO IMPORTANT WE HAVE NEVER FIGURED OUT A WAY TO OUT-EVOLVE IT.

NEVER FIGURED OUT A WAY TO TREE REDUCE IT BY HALF.

IT'S STUCK THERE AT SEVEN OR EIGHT HOURS.

I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, WHAT ARE THE FEATURES OF SLEEP?

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO BRAIN HEALTH, TO MEMORY CONSOLIDATION, WHY DOES THAT PLAY IN A PROFOUND ROLE IN METABOLISM?

SO MANY OF THE PROBLEMS WITH OBESITY, METABOLIC HEALTH, INSULIN RESISTANCE TYPE 2 DIABETES CAN BE ATTRIBUTED SLEEP AS MUCH AS DIET.

>> A LOT OF THE BOOK TAKES A CRITICAL LOOK AT OUR EXISTING HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

YOU WRITE THAT, QUOTE, HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES WON'T PAY A DOCTOR VERY MUCH TO TELL A PATIENT TO CHANGE THE WAY HE EATS OR TO MONITOR HE HAD F HIS BLOOD GLUE DOSE LEVELS TO PREVENT HIM FROM DEVELOPING TYPE 2 DIABETES, YET INSURANCE WILL PAY FOR THIS SAME PATIENT'S VERY EXPENSIVE INSULIN AFTER HE HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED.

IS THERE A WAY TO TURN WHAT SEEMS LIKE THE LARGEST INDUSTRY IN THE COUNTRY AROUND TO THINK KIND OF PROACTIVELY INSTEAD OF REACTIVELY?

>> MINE, THERE CLEARLY IS FROM A CONCEPTUAL STANDPOINT.

FROM A STRUCTURAL STANDPOINT I DON'T WANT TO BE NAIVE AND SUGGEST IT WILL BE EASY.

THAT QUOTE I THINK ILLUSTRATES THE POINT, RIGHT.

EVERYTHING FOLLOWS THE DOLLAR.

AND I DON'T SAY THAT AS A SKEPTICAL GUY.

DOLLARS ARE IMPORTANT.

I AM A CAN'T LIST.

IT'S ALL ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO SET THE RIGHT ECONOMIC INCENTIVES.

RIGHT NOW THE ECONOMIC INCENTIVES IN MEDICINE ARE DIAGNOSIS AND PHARMACOLOGIC TREATMENT.

I AM NOT HERE TO SAY THAT PHARMACOLOGIC TREATMENTS DON'T MATTER.

THEY ARE IMPORTANT AND WE RELY ON THEM.

BUT THE POINT IS WE WERE ONLY EDUCATED ALONG ONE PARAMETER OF INTERVENTION, WHICH IS PROCEDURAL AND PHARMACOLOGIC.

IF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM OF REIMBURSEMENT IS BASED ON CREATING A DIAGNOSIS AND DEVELOPING A TREATMENT PLAN ALONG THOSE METRICS, AND BY THE WAY GO BACK TO WHAT I SAID AT THE OUTSET, THE ONLY METRIC OF INTEREST IS LENGTH OF LIFE, YOU WILL CREATE THE MACHINE WE HAVE CALLED MET SIN 2.0.

BY THE WAY, IT WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL AT TREATING SOME THINGS.

NAMELY, INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND ACUTE PROBLEMS SUCH AS TRAUMA.

THIS IS WHAT HAS EFFECTIVELY DOUBLED THE LIFE SPAN OF HUMANS IN THE LAST 150 YEARS.

IT'S THE SUCCESS OF THAT MODEL, MEDICINE 2.0 APPLIED IN THAT WAY, WAIT UNTIL THE PROBLEM HAPPENS, TREAT IT WITH PHARMACOLOGIC OR PROCEDURAL INTERVENTION.

WE ARE SEEING THAT PLAYBOOK IS NOT WORKING WITH CHRONIC DISEASES.

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

THE ONLY WAY YOU TREAT CHRONIC DISEASES IS MOVING ON TO AN APPROACH WHERE YOU TREAT -- WHERE YOU REALLY ENACT PREVENTION AND IF YOU WANT TO INCENTIVIZE PHYSICIANS TO DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO BE EDUCATED IN THIS WAY AND YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO REIMBURSE FOR THESE TOOLS.

YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO REIMBURSE PHYSICIANS AND YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO INCENTIVIZE PATIENTS TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES 30 YEARS BEFORE THEY HAVE THAT HEART ATTACK.

>> IF YOU WERE TO ADVISE A PATIENT HEADING TO THEIR DOCTOR, WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU WOULD TELL THEM TO PERK THEIR EARS UP ON OR LISTEN CLOSE TO THIS NUMBER THAT ARE GOOD GUIDES FOR HEALTHFULNESS?

>> I WANT PATIENTS TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT LABS ARE REALLY GOOD AT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THEY ARE NOT GOOD AT.

EVERYBODY SHOULD KNOW THEIR APOB MEASURES THE TOTAL CONCENTRATION OF THE CHOLESTEROL-CARRYING PARTICLES IN THE BLOOD THAT DRIVE ATHROSCLEROSIS, WHICH IS THE DOMINANT FORCE DRIVING HEART DISEASE.

AGAIN CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH.

HEART DISEASE IS THE LEADING KILLER GLOBALLY.

ABOUT 19 MILLION PEOPLE PER YEAR DIE DIE OF ATHROSOLAROTIC CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE WHICH DWARVES THE NUMBER TWO KILLER, CANCER, BY 12 TO 13 MILLION.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW THIS CONCENTRATION.

EVERYBODY NEEDS TO HAVE THEIR LPa MEASURED.

THAT'S GENETICALLY DETERMINED.

ONCE YOU MEASURE IT, YOU DON'T NEED TO RECHECK IT.

AND WE THINK EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW THEIR APO-E GENOTYPE.

THIS PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE AND ALSO IN CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE.

KNOWING THAT CAN HELP YOU UNDERSTAND HOW AGGRESSIVE YOU MIGHT NEED TO BE IN PREVENTION.

THOSE ARE A HANDFUL OF THINGS WE THINK ARE IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TO KNOW.

>> YOU ARE WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT EMOTIONAL HEALTH AND WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LINE FROM YOUR THERAPIST, WAY THE TO SAY, THAT SUMS UP THE WHOLE BOOK.

WHY DO YOU WANT TO LIVE LONGER IF YOU ARE SO UNHAPPY?

PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION, BUT PRETTY PROFOUND.

>> YEAH.

THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT DOESN'T SHOW UP ANYWHERE IN THE STANDARD DIAGNOSTIC LIST OF CRITERIA, AND IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT PROBABLY MATTERS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS, RIGHT.

SO IF YOUR LIFE SUCKS, LIVING LONGER IS ACTUALLY A CURSE, NOT A BLESSING, REGARDLESS OF THE STATE OF YOUR PHYSICAL HEALTH.

SO I DO THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH IT'S PROBABLY NOT SOMETHING AS A PROFESSION WE SPEND ENOUGH TIME TALKING ABOUT, WE DO REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT A PERSON'S SENSE OF PURPOSE IS, HOW STRONG THEIR RELATIONSHIPS ARE.

I DO THINK THAT GENERALLY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A REASONABLE CORRELATION BETWEEN THE STRENGTH OF YOUR RELATIONSHIPS AND YOUR HAPPINESS AND THERE IS A REASONABLE CORRELATION BETWEEN HAPPINESS AND LENGTH OF LIFE.

AND THINK THERE IS SOME CAUSALITY THERE, TOO.

I THINK THE REAL QUESTION BECOMES WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT, RIGHT.

AT THE INDIVIDUAL, IF YOU ARE SITTING WHERE I WAS SITTING SIX YEARS AGO, WHICH WAS TO SAY, YOU KNOW, PHYSICALLY HEALTHY, BUT NOT EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY, CAN YOU BEND THE ARC OF THAT CURVE IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU CAN BEND THE ARC OF THE CURVE OF YOUR FITNESS, MUSCLE MASS, STRENGTH, LIPID NUMBERS, YOUR INSULIN RESISTANCE NUMBERS.

THE ANSWER IS UNEQUIVOCALLY YES.

>> DR. PETER ATTICA, AUTHOR OF "OUTLIVE: THE SCIENCE AND ART OF LONGEVITY," THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, JUST OVER A WEEK AGO THE WORLD LOST A LITERARY GIANT, ROBERT GOTTLIEB.

AN EDITOR TO LEGENDS LIKE TONI MORRISON, STOCKTON RUSH AND BOB DYLAN.

UPON GOTTLIEB'S PASSING WROTE, I REMEMBER HOW BOB WAS ALWAYS, ALWAYS FOR HALF A CENTURY THERE FOR ME.

HE WAS A GREAT FRIEND AND TODAY I MOURN MY FRIEND WITH ALL MY HEART.

THEIR FINAL PROJECT TOGETHER IS AT YET UNPUBLISHED FINAL VOLUME OF CARO'S EPIC BIOGRAPHY OF FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT LYNDON B. JOHNSON.

WE WANT TO LOOK BACK AT AN INTERVIEW CHRISTIANE HAD WITH GOTTLIEB'S DAUGHTER, LIZZIE GOTTLIEB, WHOSE MOVE "TURN EVERY PAGE" IMMORTALIZES THE TWO ROBERT'S 50-YEAR RELATIONSHIP.

>> DAUGHTER AND DIRECTOR LIZZIE GOTTLIEB JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS TRULY A WONDERFUL FILM AND FOR ANY JOURNALIST, ANYBODY, IT'S A REAL BOOST OF HOPEFULNESS.

IT'S REALLY GREAT.

SO TELL ME, LIZZIE, WHAT GOES INTO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EDITOR AND WRITER?

AT LEAST THIS PARTICULAR RELATIONSHIP.

>> I THINK MOST RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN EDITORS AND WRITERS ARE DIFFERENT.

BUT I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE READERS DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW A BOOK COMES TO BE, HOW TWO PEOPLE WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE THE BEST BOOK POSSIBLE.

AND THIS PARTICULAR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MY FATHER AND ROBERT CARO HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 50 YEARS, AND THEY BOTH DESCRIBE IT AS VERY CONTENTIOUS.

SO THEY HAD THIS WILDLY PRODUCTIVE, VERY CONTENTIOUS RELATIONSHIP FOR 50 YEARS, AND THEY ARE STILL AT IT AND TRYING TO FINISH THEIR LIFE'S WORK IN A SORT OF RACE AGAINST TIME.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO MAKE THE FILM IS I REALIZE THAT I WAS IN A UNIQUE POSITION TO OPEN A WINDOW AND SHOW PEOPLE IN A WORLD THAT IS VANISHING, THE WORLD OF BOOK EDITING THAT WE SORT OF SPAN THE LAST CENTURY, AND SEE THE SORT OF ALCHEMY OF WHAT GOES ON BETWEEN THESE TWO TITANIC BOOK MEN.

>> AND DID YOU GET ANY SENSE OF THIS RACE AGAINST TIME, WHETHER IT WILL BE COMPLETED?

I MEAN, IT'S A HARD QUESTION TO ASK BECAUSE WE ONLINE ARE LOOKING AT MORTALITY HERE AND PARTICULARLY THE MORTALITY OF YOUR FATHER AND HIS GREAT COLLABORATOR.

WAS IT KIND OF IN THAT WAY ALMOST SAD ALSO TO BE DOING THIS BECAUSE YOU KNEW YOU ALSO WERE RACING AGAINST TIME, ALL THREE OF YOU ARE.

>> IT'S TRUE.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO MAKE THE FILM NOW IS BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH AT STAKE FOR EVERYBODY, FOR THE TWO OF THEM IN IN RACE AGAINST TIME TO FINISH THEIR WORK, AND FOR THE READERS WHO CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THESE BOOKS, HOPING TO HAVE THE STORY BE FINISHED, AND FOR ME PERSONALLY IN THAT MY FATHER IS 91 AND EVERY MINUTE I GET TO SPEND WITH HIM FEELS LIKE A GIFT.

SO I THINK WE'RE ALL AWARE OF THESE ISSUES OF MORTALITY AND THEIR ISSUES OF LEGACY.

BUT I REALLY DO BELIEVE THEY ARE GOING TO FINISH.

ROBERT CARO IS VERY DETERMINED AND WORKING UNBELIEVABLY HARD AND I THINK THEY WILL GET THERE.

>> WELL, I MEAN, FOR ALL HIS LEGIONS OF FANS, THAT'S GOING TO BE GREAT BECAUSE THE FIFTH AND FINAL EPISODE, SO TO SPEAK, VOLUME OF THE LBJ PAPERS AND BIOGRAPHY IS GOING TO BE EAGERLY AWAITED.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM WHICH REALLY DOES EXPLAIN THE NITTY-GRITTY THAT THEY WENT DOWN TO RIGHT DOWN TO A FIGHT OVER WHERE A SEMICOLON SHOULD BE PLACED.

HERE IT IS.

>> GREAT THING ABOUT BOB IS ALSO THE MADDENING THING ABOUT HIM.

EVERYTHING IS A TOTAL IMPORTANCE.

THE FIRST CHAPTER OF THE BOOK AND THE SEMICOLON.

THEY ARE OF EQUAL IMPORTANCE.

AND HE CAN BE EQUALLY FIRM, STRONG, EMOTIONAL, IRRATIONAL ABOUT ANY OF IT.

I'M LIKE THAT, TOO.

SO TO TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE BECAUSE I, TOO, THINK THAT A SEMICOLON IS WORTH FIGHTING A CIVIL WAR ABOUT.

>> REALLY A SEMICOLON HAS A PARTICULAR FUNCTION.

A SEMICOLON IS NOT AS MUCH OF A STOP AS A PERIOD.

THAT'S A FULL STOP.

BUT IT'S MORE OF A STOP THAN A COMMA, WHICH IS JUST SOMETHING YOU SLIDE, A LITTLE STOP.

SO IT HAS A PARTICULAR FUNCTION.

>> HE SAYS YOU HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT IDEA ABOUT SEMICOLONS THAN HE DOES.

>> MM-HMM, BECAUSE I AM AN EDITOR.

HE IS JUST A WRITER.

>> HE IS JUST A WRITER.

THAT IS HILARIOUS.

BUT SERIOUSLY, A SEMICOLON WAR, MAYBE EXPLAINS WHY IT TAKES SEVEN YEARS OR SO FOR ROBERT GOTTLIEB -- ROBERT CARO TO FINISH A VOLUME?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT FOR BOTH OF THESE MEN, THE THING THEY HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE BOOKS ARE ABOUT VERY URGENT THINGS.

THEY ARE ABOUT HOW POWER WORKS IN AMERICA AND THE EFFECT OF POWER ON THE POWERLESS AND THINGS THAT WE ALL REALLY NEED TO LEARN, AND ROBERT CARO FEELS AND I THINK MY FATHER AGREES THAT UNLESS THE SENTENCES ARE AS COMPELLING AND RIVETING AS POSSIBLE, NO ONE WILL READ THE BOOKS AND NO ONE WILL CARE.

SO FOR THEM, AS HE SAYS, EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT.

EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.

AND THEY ARE VERY OPINIONATED AND VERY STRONG WILLED AND THEY EACH THINK THEY ARE RIGHT.

AND SO THEY REALLY GET INTO IT, SORT OF IN THE NITTY-GRITTY, AND ON THE BIG PICTURE ISSUES AS WELL.

>> THE BIG PICTURE ISSUE IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE IS, AS YOU SAY, THE EXPLORATION OF POWER AND HOW ROBERT CARO GOES ABOUT IT AND ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PRESIDENTS WAS LYNDON JOHNSON.

ALSO ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL NEW YORKERS EVER ROBERT MOSES.

DESCRIBE WHAT POWER MEANT TO CARO AND HOW HE TRIED TO GET TO HEART OF IT.

>> I THINK THAT CARO FEELS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE LIVING IN THE WORLD CREATED BY THESE MEN.

AS NEW YORKERS, WE ARE LIVING IN A WORLD CREATED BY ROBERT MOSES STILL TO THIS DAY.

HE HAS GREAT VISIONS FOR THE CITY AND RACISM AND CLASSISM THAT IS BUILT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF OUR CITY, STILL WE ARE LIVING IN THAT.

SIMILARLY WITH LYNDON JOHNSON, HE DID GREAT THINGS AND TERRIBLE THINGS AND WE ARE STILL LIVING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE WAY HE YIELDED -- WIELDED HIS POWER.

SO I THINK THAT CARO IS TRYING TO REALLY HELP US IN OUR DEMOCRACY UNDERSTAND HOW POWER HAS BEEN USED AND ABUSED AND HOW PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE POWER ARE AFFECTED BY THOSE DECISIONS BY THOSE MEN THAT HE WRITES ABOUT, AND HIS HOPE IS THAT IF WE LEARN FROM THESE THINGS, WE WILL VOTE BETTER AND WE WILL HAVE A BETTER DEMOCRACY.

SO THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS ANIMATES HIS WRITING.

>> AND ALL THE WHILE THEY ARE INCREDIBLY READ NL AND ACCESSIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE.

HE IS NOT JUST WRITING, YOU KNOW, A TURNING I HAD HISTORY.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT THE FEELINGS AND THE -- EVERYTHING THAT SHAPES THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES, WHO HE WRITES ABOUT.

SO I WONDER WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR YOU WHEN YOU FINALLY MANAGED TO GET INTO A SESSION WHERE THE TWO ROBERTS, YOUR FATHER, GOTTLIEB, THE EDITOR, AND CARO, THE WRITER, THEY LET YOU IN, BUT WITH NO MICROPHONES, JUST THE CAMERA.

WHAT DID YOU GET FROM THAT SESSION?

WE CAN'T HEAR IT, BUT WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY AGREED TO DO THIS FILM, WHICH THEY WERE RELUCTANT TO DO AND THEY SORT OF SLOWLY OPENED UP MORE AND MORE OVER THE COURSE OF THE SEVEN YEARS IT TOOK ME TO MAKE THIS FILM, THEY INITIALLY SAID WE REFUSE TO BE INTERVIEWED IN THE SAME ROOM AS EACH OTHER BECAUSE IT MIGHT GET CONTENTIOUS, WHICH SEEMED HIM ARIAS TO ME AND ENDEARING AND IRRESISTIBLE AS A FILM MAKETORY GET INTO THAT ROOM.

AND EVENTUALLY I DID.

AND WHAT I FELT WAS THAT WHAT WE ARE REALLY SEEING AND WHAT I HOPE I CAPTURE IN THAT SCENE IS THE INCREDIBLE JOY THEY FEEL IN THEIR WORK.

THESE ARE TWO MEN WHO ARE SO COMMITTED AND DEVOTED TO THEIR CRAFT, INDIVIDUALLY AND TOGETHER.

SO I WANTED TO CAPTURE THAT JOY THAT THEY HAVE IN DOING THEIR WORK, WHICH I FIND SO DEEPLY INSPIRING FOR PEOPLE WHO ALSO COMMIT THEMSELVES TO CRAFT AND DO ANY SORT OF WORK TOGETHER AND APART.

>> AND WHAT DID YOU -- I MEAN, LOOK.

YOU'RE THE DAUGHTER OF ROBERT GOTTLIEB WHO, BEYOND THIS EDITORIAL -- THIS JOB OF EDITING ROBERT CARO IS A LEGENDARY EDITOR IN HIS OWN RIGHT.

PEOPLE LIKE PRESIDENT CLINTON AND OTHERS TALK ABOUT WHAT HE MEANT TO THEM, MENTORS AND EDITORS AND TEACHERS SHALL AND IT IS PROFOUND.

YOU SPENT SEVERAL YEARS GOING THROUGH YOUR FATHER'S WORK AND PAPERS.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT HIM PERSONALLY?

>> YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE ASKED ME THIS QUESTION, AND THE TRUE ANSWER IS THAT MY FATHER AND I ARE VERY, VERY CLOSE.

I GREW UP IN A HOUSE THAT WAS FILLED WITH HIS WRITERS.

PEOPLE WERE ALWAYS COMING FOR DINNER, STAYING THE NIGHT, COMING TO STAY WITH US, AND SO IN THIS -- MY FATHER AND I TALK ON THE PHONE ALMOST EVERY DAY.

AND THERE IS -- I DON'T FEEL THAT THERE WERE ANY SECRETS BETWEEN US OR ANYTHING LEFT UNSAID, BUT I DO FEEL THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ROBERT CARO WAS ONE THAT I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT DREW ME TO IT.

THERE IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THERE IS SOMETHING CHARGED AND DYNAMIC BETWEEN THEM THAT THEY WERE BOTH QUITE SECRETIVE ABOUT.

WHEN I ASKED IF I COULD FILM THEM, THEY BOTH SAID NO.

IT TOOK SOME CONVINCING.

AND SO REALLY I LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT THE POWER DYNAMICS BETWEEN THESE TWO QUITE EXTRAORDINARY MEN.

>> YEAH.

WELL, IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE.

IT'S A GREAT FILM.

LIZZIE GOTTLIEB, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> AND JUST A QUICK POSTSCRIPT.

A SPOKESPERSON FOR ROBERT CARO SAID THE DEATH OF ROBERT GOTTLIEB IS UNLIKELY TO IMPACT THE PUBLICATION OF THAT MUCH AWAITED LYNDON B. JOHNSON BOOK.

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