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♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> THE APPROACH THAT HAS THE GREATEST CHANCE OF SUCCESS IS A MULTILATERAL ONE.
>> AMERICAN VOTERS FACE A STARK CHOICE IN NOVEMBER.
I SPEAK WITH DIPLOMAT DAVID SATTERFIELD ABOUT THE HIGH STAKES FOR GLOBAL SECURITY.
>>> WITH THE FUTURE OF THE MIDDLE EAST ON THE BALLOT, JOMANA KARADSHEH FOLLOWS UP HER INVESTIGATION OF ONE TEENAGE VICTIM OF THE GAZA WAR.
>>> THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN READY FOR THE ISRAELIS TO MAKE PEACE BASED ON JUSTICE AND SPLITTING THE LAND BETWEEN THE TWO.
>> PALESTINIAN AUTHOR AND ACTIVIST RAJA SHEHADEH EXPLAINS WHY HIS VISION OF PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE MAY BE FADING.
>>> WITH FOOD AND WATER SUPPLIES BECOMING INCREASINGLY SCARCE, WE HEAR ABOUT WHAT MAY BE THE NEXT MAJOR GLOBAL THREAT.
♪♪♪ >> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
AS AMERICAN VOTERS LOOK AHEAD TO THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE ON THURSDAY, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD, COVERAGE IS MOSTLY FOCUSED ON DOMESTIC ISSUES.
BUT AN ARRAY OF GLOBAL CHALLENGES COULD HAVE THE GREATEST IMPACT ON AMERICANS' DAILY LIVES.
IN UKRAINE, AMERICAN HESITATION HAS HELPED VLADIMIR PUTIN ADVANCE HIS INTERESTS.
IN THE MIDDLE EAST, PROGRESS TOWARDS REGIONAL PEACE COULD BE ONE MORE CASUALTY OF THE BRUTAL WAR IN GAZA.
AND FROM CHINA, IRAN, NORTH KOREA AND BEYOND, THE NEXT FOREIGN POLICY CRISIS COULD BE JUST OVER THE HORIZON.
AMERICANS FACE A STARK CHOICE AND SO DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD, BETWEEN JOE BIDEN, WITH HIS VIEW OF A GLOBAL BATTLE BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND AUTOCRACY.
I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH DAVID SATTERFIELD ABOUT THESE FOREIGN POLICY FLASHPOINTS FACING AMERICA'S NEXT PRESIDENT.
DAVID SATTERFIELD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> HAPPY TO BE HERE.
>> ONE OF THE HUGE ISSUES IS OBVIOUSLY THE RAGING WAR IN EUROPE.
80 YEARS AFTER D-DAY, AFTER THE END OF WORLD WAR II.
ROBERT O'BRIEN AND PRESIDENT TRUMP CRITICIZED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR NOT CONFRONTING PUTIN ENOUGH DURING THE 2014 INVASION AND ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AND ALSO, IF YOU REMEMBER, NOT GIVING UKRAINE LETHAL WEAPONS LIKE THE JAVELINS, WHEN THEY NEEDED THEM.
WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT BEFORE WE GO INTO THE FUTURE?
>> I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE LIMITED RESPONSE AFTER THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA LED PUTIN TO BELIEVE THAT HE COULD MAKE FURTHER ADVANCES ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE OR ELSEWHERE WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGE FROM THE UNITED STATES AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
THAT WAS, IN RETROSPECT, A SIGNIFICANT ERROR.
WITH RESPECT TO THE APPROACH TO UKRAINE AFTER THE RUSSIA INVASION, THE ADMINISTRATION ENGAGED IN AN EXTRAORDINARY AND ALMOST UNPRECEDENTED CAMPAIGN PRIOR TO THE INVASION OF MAKING VERY CLEAR TO THE WORLD PRIVATELY AND PUBLICLY THAT WE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT PUTIN WAS PLANNING TO DO.
WE KNEW WHAT THE SCOPE OF HIS TAKEOVER OF UKRAINE WAS INTENDED TO BE, WITH THE OBJECT OF AVOIDING THE WAR.
THAT DID NOT SUCCEED, BECAUSE PUTIN IN THE FACE OF ALL OF THIS STILL WENT FORWARD.
COULD MORE HAVE BEEN DONE SOONER TO PROVIDE WEAPONRY OF A SOPHISTICATED KIND?
THE ANSWER WILL BE DEBATED FOR SOME TIME, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS, THE INTENT OF THE ADMINISTRATION WAS TO AVOID IF AT ALL POSSIBLE AN ESCALATION WITH A NUCLEAR POWER, RUSSIA.
THAT COULD INVOLVE DIRECTLY THE UNITED STATES.
THE WISDOM OR ILL WISDOM OF THAT IS A MATTER FOR HISTORIANS.
THE POINT IS, THE U.S. IS NOW ROBUSTLY SUPPORTING UKRAINE, INCLUDING IN A VERY SELECTIVE FASHION.
THE TARGETING OF THOSE FACILITIES IN RUSSIA THAT ARE BEING USED FOR SPECIFIC ATTACKS ON UKRAINE.
>> CLEARLY, IF THERE'S I GUESS ANOTHER BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, UKRAINE CAN PRETTY MUCH COUNT ON, MAYBE WITH DELAY LIKE BEFORE, CONTINUED AID.
POTENTIALLY, I DON'T KNOW, TRUMP HAS SAID A LOT OF THINGS THAT PUT IN DOUBT CONTINUED MILITARY AID.
I WANT TO ASK, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN -- RATHER, PUTIN HAS BEEN GETTING A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM NORTH KOREA DURING THE WAR AND NOW WITH THIS NEW DECLARATION OF MILITARY COOPERATION WITH THEIR VISIT IN PYONGYANG.
PUTIN IS REALLY COUNTING ON THAT AND THIS ANTI-AMERICAN AXIS THAT HE IS GATHERING TOGETHER, INCLUDING CHINA, IRAN, ET CETERA.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HOW ANY PRESIDENT CAN CONTAIN NORTH KOREA?
AGAIN, REMEMBER, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ESSENTIALLY DIDN'T DO HARDLY ANY DIPLOMACY WITH NORTH KOREA.
TRUMP TRIED, ACCORDING TO THE SOUTH KOREANS THERE WAS NO FOLLOW-UP.
WHAT CAN AN AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION DO TO MAKE SURE NORTH KOREA DOESN'T ACT AGAINST THEIR INTERESTS IN THE WAY IT'S DOING RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL, THE APPROACH THAT HAS THE GREATEST CHANCE OF SUCCESS IS A MULTILATERAL ONE.
IT IS ASSEMBLING AND SUSTAINING A COALITION OF PARTIES WHO DO HAVE INFLUENCE WITH PYONGYANG, TO THE EXTENT THAT ANY COUNTRY OR COMBINATION OF COUNTRIES DO IN THAT VERY UNIQUE PLACE, TO MAKE CLEAR THAT THERE WILL BE NO SUPPORT FOR THE ECONOMY, NO SUPPORT FOR OR LEGITIZATION FOR KOREA'S BEHAVIOR.
THIS IS A REGIME WHICH ENGAGES IN BEHAVIORS NOT JUST AT THE LEVEL OF BALLISTIC MISSILE CHALLENGES OR NUCLEAR PROGRAMS, THAT GO BEYOND THE REALM OF INTERNATIONAL CONDUCT.
IT IS A VERY SAD JUDGMENT ON WHERE RUSSIA NOW FINDS ITSELF THAT IT IS TURNING TO IRAN, TURNING TO KOREA, TURNING TO WHAT ARE IN A VERY OLD PHRASE PARIAH REGIMES IN ORDER TO MEET ITS MILITARY REQUIREMENTS TO CONDUCT THIS ILLEGITIMATE WAR IN UKRAINE.
>> YET, THAT'S WHERE IT IS.
WE DON'T SEE ANY END IN SIGHT TO THIS WAR.
LET ME TURN TO THE MIDDLE EAST, YOUR AREA OF MOST RECENT SPECIALTY.
ONE COULD SAY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, WITH HIS VISITS THERE, WITH HIS DIPLOMACY REALLY, REALLY EMPOWERED THE EXTREME RIGHT WING IN ISRAEL.
SETTLER MOVEMENT, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S MAXIMALIST TENDENCIES.
I WONDER WHETHER PRESIDENT BIDEN CAN DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT OR BETTER?
HE IS VIEWED AS ALTHOUGH BEING ITS STRONGEST ALLY, NOT HAVING A HUGE AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE.
EVEN THIS LATEST PEACE PROPOSAL OR CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE.
I HEARD YOU TRYING TO GET THE ISRAELIS AROUND IT SAYING THAT IT WAS AN ISRAELI POSITION AS WELL.
BUT THEY NEVER CLAIMED IT.
IT'S CLEAR THEY DIDN'T TAKE IT UP.
>> THERE IS A VERY FREQUENT AND LONGSTANDING OVER READING THAT OUTSIDE POWERS, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES HAVE, TO INFLUENCE ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN BEHAVIORS WHEN BOTH SIDES INTERPRET THOSE BEHAVIORS AS EXISTENTIAL.
THAT'S THE SITUATION WE FIND OURSELVES IN RIGHT NOW.
FOR HAMAS, FOR ISRAEL AND ISRAELIS AND I GO BEYOND THIS GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL, FOR ISRAEL ITSELF, THESE ARE EXISTENTIAL ISSUES.
THE U.S. HAS EVERY ABILITY TO PUT FORWARD AS CLEAR A VISION AS POSSIBLE OF WHAT WE BELIEVE CAN LEAD TO A SUSTAINABLE PEACE, A REDUCTION OF THE SECURITY THREATS POSED TO ISRAEL AND THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE DECISIONS BEING MADE ARE IN THE HANDS OF ISRAEL ITSELF AND OF HAMAS.
WITH RESPECT TO THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION AND PRESUMED ENCOURAGEMENT FOR RIGHT WING ACTIVISM, LOOK, I THINK THAT'S OVERSTATED.
THE POLITICS OF ISRAEL ARE JUST THAT.
THEY ARE THE POLITICS OF ISRAEL.
THEY HAVE FAR LESS TO DO WITH EXTERNAL FACTORS THAN THEY DO WITH VARIOUS INTERNAL DOMESTIC DRIVES, JUST AS IS THE CASE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU THEN, BECAUSE UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION WHEN WE HAD OSLO AND THERE WAS THE KING OF JORDAN, THERE WAS ARAFAT, THERE WAS A PERIOD IN WHICH IT APPEARED ALL THE CONVEING PARTIES WERE ON A CERTAIN ROUTE.
THAT OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T LAST.
IT DIDN'T -- IT FAILED.
THE LATEST SEVERAL YEARS HAVE BEEN, I GUESS, THE END OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND THEN WHATEVER HAPPENED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ESSENTIALLY THERE WAS ALMOST NO ENGAGEMENT ON THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE.
DO YOU THINK THAT A SECOND -- ANY FUTURE AMERICAN PRESIDENT CAN AVOID PUTTING THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE AT THE CENTER OF ISRAEL'S NEED FOR SECURITY OF THE DESIRE TO HAVE NORMALIZATION WITH SAUDI ARABIA AS WELL AS THE UAE, ET CETERA?
>> I THINK IT'S CRITICAL THAT ANY U.S. ADMINISTRATION PURSUE TWO COURSES IN PARALLEL.
ONE IS TO CONTINUE TO UNDERSCORE AS THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING THAT A TWO-STATE RESOLUTION, A CREDIBLE PATHWAY TO A TWO-STATE OUTCOME HAS TO BE THE OVERARCHING FRAME IN WHICH ULTIMATE SECURITY, WELL-BEING, THE QUIET MIRACLE OF A NORMAL LIFE, AS BILL CLINTON SPOKE TO, CAN BE ACHIEVED.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE NEEDS TO BE A STRATEGIC VISION FOR THE REGION AS A WHOLE.
THAT IS WHY WE ARE PURSUING WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS THE SAUDI DEAL, AS TIRELESSLY AS WE ARE.
THAT OFFERS NOT ONLY STRATEGIC BENEFITS FOR THE UNITED STATES, VIS-A-VIS CHALLENGES FROM IRAN, FROM THE PRC TO THE REGION, BUT IT ALSO FORMS AN ADDITIONAL STABILIZATION FRAMEWORK FOR PEACE IN THE REGION.
YOU HAVE GOT TO PURSUE BOTH.
THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI COURSE AND THE BROADER REGIONAL COURSE FOR STABILITY AND PEACE.
>> LAST QUESTION ON THIS.
OBVIOUSLY, AMERICANS AND MUCH OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD WERE HORRIFIED BY WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th, BY WHAT HAMAS DID ON OCTOBER 7th.
THEY ARE EQUALLY HORRIFIED NOW BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.
HOW SUSTAINABLE IS THIS DYNAMIC FOR A U.S. PRESIDENT, NOT JUST SEEKING RE-ELECTION, BUT IN THE FUTURE?
>> THE MASSACRE PERPETRATED BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th, A MASSACRE WHICH THEIR LEADERSHIP DECLARED THEY WOULD REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, IS, INDEED, THE ROOT CAUSE FOR THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THAT HAS UNFOLDED OVER THESE LAST NINE MONTHS.
THAT DEATH TOLL IS HORRENDOUS.
WE HAVE SPOKEN TO IT IN QUITE HUMAN, PERSONAL TERMS.
IT IS, AS TONY BLINKEN HAS SAID, A KICK IN THE GUT TO SEE IMAGES OF SHROUDS COVERING YOUNG CHILDREN PREPARING FOR BURIAL.
WE SHOULD BE UNDER NO ILLUSION AS TO WHO AND WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE.
IT'S HAMAS.
IT'S SINWAR.
IT'S THE CONSEQUENCE OF BEASTIAL BRUTALITY ON OCTOBER 7.
HAMAS COULD BRING THIS TO A CLOSE TONIGHT, THIS HOUR, IF THEY WERE TO AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THE CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL THAT WE AND OUR PARTNERS IN THE REGION HAVE ADVANCED ON BEHALF OF ISRAEL.
IT'S THEIR PROPOSAL.
HAMAS HAS REJECTED IT, CONTINUES TO REJECT IT.
THAT'S WHERE RESPONSIBILITY HAS TO LIE.
>> YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WORKED FOR SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS, THAT THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DOES NOT SIGN UP TO THE PEACE PROCESS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE U.N., EVERYBODY ELSE HAS SIGNED UP TO RIGHT NOW.
HOW DO YOU -- YOU SAY THERE'S THIS RESPONSIBILITY ON THIS SIDE, BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS AN ACTUAL GOVERNMENT.
HOW DO YOU GET IT INTO A PLACE WHERE IT WILL ACTUALLY AGREE TO A TWO-STATE PEACE SOLUTION?
MANY WOULD SAY THAT ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS IS THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO PLAY OFF HAMAS AGAINST THE OTHER PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE RECOGNIZED ISRAEL AND ARE PART OF THE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED PEACE PROCESS AND THE POLITICAL PROCESS.
>> WE DO BELIEVE STRONGLY THAT THAT FRAMEWORK OF A CREDIBLE PATHWAY TO A TWO-STATE RESOLUTION IS THE ONLY WAY TO MOVE FORWARD TO COUNTER THE VISION THAT HAMAS PROVIDES FOR GOVERNANCE, NOT JUST TO GAZA, BUT OVER THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AS A WHOLE, IF NOT THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COUNTERVISION.
MANY IN ISRAEL ARE SPEAKING TO THAT AS WELL.
HOW DO YOU DO THAT?
HOW DO YOU MOVE THAT FORWARD BEYOND RHETORIC?
IT'S THROUGH DIPLOMACY, THROUGH THE CONTINUED UNILATERAL, MULTILATERAL APPROACH THAT POINTS OUT, THIS IS WHAT FULFILLMENT OF EXECUTION OF THIS VISION COULD ACHIEVE.
IT'S HARD.
IT'S VERY HARD.
PARTICULARLY UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.
ISRAEL IS TRAUMATIZED, DEEPLY, BY THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th, BY THE HOLDING OF 120 HOSTAGES LIVING AND PERISHED.
YOU STILL HAVE TO ARTICULATE AND ADVANCE THE IDEA.
YOU CANNOT FIGHT A CONCEPT, AN IDEA, WITHOUT ANOTHER BETTER, MORE COMPELLING IDEA.
>> I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN'S MISSION TO BOLSTER DEMOCRACY AGAINST THE AUTOCRATIC WORLD IS SUSTAINABLE NOW AND HOW YOU WOULD RATE IT, GIVEN WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN EUROPE.
WE ARE SEEING THE LATEST ELECTIONS FAVORING A LOT OF THE FAR RIGHT TO THE EXTREMISTS.
>> THE MESSAGE THAT DEMOCRACY, NOT DEMAGOGUERY, THAT THE ADVANCE OF HUMAN INTERESTS AND HUMAN VALUES, NOT A RESORT TO FEAR AND FEAR MONGERING, IS THE BEST WAY FORWARD FOR THE WORLD, NOT JUST FOR THE UNITED STATES, IS A MESSAGE THAT HAS TO BE REPEATED.
80 YEARS AFTER D-DAY, THIS IS AN EVEN MORE PROFOUND MESSAGE THAT FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY IS, INDEED, THE BEST COURSE FOR THE WORLD, BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE HAS LED THE WORLD INTO TRAGEDY, INTO HORROR TOO MANY TIMES IN THE PAST.
THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT HAS SAID FROM THE BEGINNING, WE ARE GOING TO DESTROY HAMAS.
AS YOU HAVE SEEN LATELY, CERTAIN MEMBERS OF HIS WAR CABINET RESIGNED.
THEY DON'T LIKE HIS NON-POST-WAR PLAN.
THEY SAID CERTAIN THINGS ABOUT THE MILITARY STRATEGY.
THE LATEST IS THE IDF SPOKESMAN, A MILITARY GUY, HAGARI SAID THE WAR AIM OF ERADICATING HAMAS IS UNATTAINABLE.
SO THERE SEEMS TO BE IN SOME ISRAELI QUARTERS A REALIZATION THAT THEY HAVE TO DO CERTAIN THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO GET RID OF HAMAS' GOVERNING POWER AND ITS TERRORIZING POWER.
WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT, THAT THE AIM OF ERADICATING IT IS UNATTAINABLE?
>> WE BELIEVE THE GOAL OF ENSURING THAT HAMAS IS DIMINISHED TO THE POINT THAT -- OR DISRUPTED TO -- TO THE POINT IT CAN NO LONGER THREATEN ISRAEL AND ISRAELIS AS IT DID ON OCTOBER 7th, THAT IT'S NO LONGER ABLE TO DICTATE THE TERMS OF GOVERNANCE OF LIFE TO THE PALESTINIANS HAS TO BE THE GOAL OF THE CAMPAIGN.
IT'S A GOAL THAT HAS TO BE ADVANCED IN TWO WAYS.
THERE'S A KINETIC MILITARY ASPECT TO IT, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.
THERE'S A HUMANITARIAN ASPECT THAT PRESERVES THE TIME, THE SPACE, THE ABILITY TO GET TO A DAY BEFORE TO DO THE THIRD KEY ELEMENT, A PLAN FOR THE DAY AFTER.
THAT PLAN FOR THE DAY AFTER HAS TO ENCOMPASS A POLITICAL VISION AS WELL AS A SECURITY VISION.
THAT'S VERY, VERY HARD TO DO BECAUSE HAMAS HAS PROVEN AN EXTRAORDINARILY RESILIENT MILITARY FORCE.
IT IS NOT JUST A TERRORIST GANG.
IT HAS A TERRORIST ARMY OF MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS.
IT IS QUITE ABLE, GIVEN ITS COMMITMENT OF RESOURCES FOR 16 YEARS, TO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS TUNNEL NETWORK, OVER 300 MILES OF DEEP BUNKERED TUNNELS.
IT HAS AN ABILITY TO CONTINUE TO EXERT INFLUENCE.
THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHALLENGED AND DIMINISHED, BUT IT TAKES MORE THAN MILITARY ACTION TO DO SO.
>> AMBASSADOR DAVID SATTERFIELD, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NOW WE TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT ONE OF THE MOST DISASTROUS ISSUES THAT WE JUST DISCUSSED, THAT IS ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA.
EVER SINCE THE SLAUGHTER OF MORE THAN 1,000, MOSTLY CIVILIAN ISRAELIS ON OCTOBER 7th, AND THE CAPTURE OF HUNDREDS OF HOSTAGES, SINCE THEN, THE WAR HAS KILLED MORE THAN 37,000 PALESTINIANS ACROSS GAZA AND MORE THAN 85,000 HAVE BEEN INJURED.
FOR THE WOUNDED, LIFE BECOMES A WORLD OF PAIN WITH LIMITED ACCESS TO TREATMENT OR RELIEF.
EVEN THOSE LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET HELP ABROAD STILL CARRY THE TRAUMA OF THEIR EXPERIENCE WITH THEM.
JOMANA KARADSHEH HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE STORY OF ROBA.
THIS REPORT CONTAINS PAINFUL IMAGES.
>> WAR IS FOREVER IMPRINTED ON ROBA'S FACE, FAR FROM THE CONFLICT, SHE AVOIDS PEOPLE AND GOING OUT.
STILL HAUNTED BY WHAT SHE SURVIVED.
THIS SCENE OF CARNAGE.
IT WAS A HORROR WE UNCOVERED EARLIER THIS YEAR.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY ATTACKED THIS WAREHOUSE IN CENTRAL GAZA WHERE ROBA AND HER FAMILY WERE SHELTERING.
WHEN OUR CAMERAMAN MET HER IN JANUARY, SHE WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED AND IS IN SHOCK, STRUGGLING TO TELL HER STORY.
>> SHE WOULD BECOME THE HEART OF A CNN INVESTIGATION, AN EXAMPLE DOCUMENTING HOW ISRAEL IS CONDUCTING THE WAR IN GAZA.
REVEALING HOW INDISCRIMINATE ISRAEL FIRE KILLED DISPLACED CIVILIANS, INCLUDING HALF OF ROBA'S FAMILY.
WITH ACCESS TO GAZA RESTRICTED, WE NEVER MET ROBA IN PERSON.
UNTIL THIS SPRING.
FOLLOWING OUR REPORT, THE QATARI GOVERNMENT FLEW HER TO DOHA FOR TREATMENT.
>> SHE AND HER FAMILY WENT THROUGH THE UNIMAGINABLE IN THAT GAZA WAREHOUSE.
THEY HAD TAKEN REFUGE THERE IN NOVEMBER FOLLOWING ISRAEL'S DIRECTIVE TO EVACUATE SOUTH.
RESIDENTS SAID THAT IN THE EARLY HOURS OF JANUARY 4th, THEY HEARD WHAT THEY CALLED RESISTANCE FIRE IN THE AREA, THOUGH DENIED THERE WERE MILITANTS WHERE CIVILIANS WERE.
AFTER COMING UNDER FIRE, THEY CARRIED OUT A PRECISE STRIKE.
EXPERTS TOLD US THAT STRIKE WAS LIKELY A MASSIVE 2,000-POUND BOMB, DROPPED WITH NO PRIOR WARNING TO ROBA'S FAMILY AND OTHER CIVILIANS.
ROBA WAS TRAPPED FOR DAYS, BLEEDING, SURROUNDED BY THE LIFELESS BODIES OF HER FIVE SIBLINGS.
THE YOUNGEST WAS 10 YEARS OLD.
>> THE ONCE OUTGOING 19-YEAR-OLD HAS LEFT SHATTERED INSIDE AND OUT.
STILL GRAPPLING WITH SEEMINGLY ENDLESS PAIN AND LOSS.
NOT JUST HER FAMILY.
EVEN THE NEW LOVE SHE FOUND.
>> THAT YOUNG MAN WAS OUT LOOKING FOR FIREWOOD WHEN HE WAS KILLED IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE.
>> BUT IT IS HER BODY, THE PHYSICAL SCARS THAT ARE CONSTANT REMINDERS OF THE HORRIFIC NIGHT.
ROBA CAME TO QATAR HOPING FOR A PROSTHETIC EYE.
>> WE JOINED HER FOR THIS DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENT.
SHE WAS EXPECTING TO GET A DATE FOR THE SURGERY.
BUT INSTEAD, IT WAS CRUSHING NEWS.
THE DOCTOR TELLS ROBA AND HER AUNT THE RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY IS NOT AVAILABLE IN QATAR.
SLOWLY, THE BAD NEWS BEGINS TO SINK IN.
>> SHE CAN BARELY STAND.
NO WORDS CAN COMFORT HER.
SHE TRIES TO SHIELD HERSELF.
AS SHE LIKELY DID THAT NIGHT, RELIVING THE TRAUMA, RELIVING A NIGHTMARE THAT JUST WON'T END.
>> THAT WAS JOMANA KARADSHEH REPORTING.
>>> RAJA SHEHADEH IS AN AUTHOR AND LAWYER AND FOUNDER OF THE ORGANIZATION AL-HAQ.
HIS NEW BOOK IS "WHAT DOES ISRAEL FEAR FROM PALESTINE?."
HE CAME HERE TO THE STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA AND IN HIS HOME BUT ALSO THE DESTRUCTION OF PALESTINIAN CULTURE, LITERATURE AND IDENTITY.
STILL, HE DOES HOLD ON TO AN UNDYING HOPE FOR PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE ONE DAY.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE LEFT THE WEST BANK WHERE YOU LIVE SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
I WONDER -- EVERYBODY'S EYES ARE ON THE HORRORS IN ISRAEL AND IN GAZA.
I WONDER WHAT YOU CAN TELL ME ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON IN RAMALLAH AND AROUND THE WEST BANK.
>> UNDER THE COVER OF THE WAR IN GAZA, THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH VIOLENCE AND UNRESTRAINED SETTLER VIOLENCE, NEVER AS BEFORE.
THE ARMY HAS BEEN SUPPORTING THE SETTLERS.
ATTACKED CARS AND HOMES AND ATTACKED COMMUNITIES AND LET THEM OUT OF THEIR COMMUNITIES.
IT'S BEEN TERRIBLE.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE AIM IS?
>> THE AIM IS VERY CLEAR.
THEY WANT TO PUSH THE PALESTINIANS OUT OF THE WEST BANK.
ALSO, THE AIM OF THE ZIONIST GROUP IN ISRAEL IS TO NOT ONLY WEAKEN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY BUT TO ELIMINATE IT IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER THE PARTS OF THE WEST BANK WHICH WERE UNDER JURISDICTION TO TAKE THAT PART AWAY AND THE ENTIRE WEST BANK.
THIS IS THEIR AIM TO ANNEX THE ENTIRE WEST BANK.
>> A LOT OF THOSE WHO PROP UP NETANYAHU'S COALITION ARE EXACTLY OF THAT MIND.
THEY ARE BELIEVERS THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT TERRITORY.
APPARENTLY, ALSO RESETTLE GAZA.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE BOOK THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN.
THE LATEST ONE IS CALLED "WHAT DOES ISRAEL FEAR FROM PALESTINE?."
GIVEN ISRAEL ESSENTIALLY HAS THE BALANCE OF POWER, WHY DO YOU THINK ISRAEL FEARS PALESTINE?
DO YOU THINK IT DOES?
>> I THINK THEY FEAR THE EXISTENCE OF PALESTINE.
IF IT EXISTS, THEN THE ISRAELI MYTH, FOUNDATION MYTH WOULD HAVE TO BE AMENDED.
THE MYTH WAS THEY CAME TO A LAND THAT WAS EMPTY, THAT DIDN'T HAVE ANY PALESTINIANS OR ANYBODY, AND THEY ESTABLISHED ISRAEL FROM ZERO.
TO RECOGNIZE PALESTINE WOULD BE REQUIRED RECONFIGUATION OF THE ISRAELI MYTH.
THAT'S THE MAIN FEAR, I THINK.
>> YOU COME FROM A FAMILY THAT HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THE ATTEMPT TO BROKER PEACE FOR DECADES, SINCE '48.
YOUR FATHER, WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER IN 1967, SUBMITTED A PEACE PROPOSAL TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ON BEHALF OF THE PALESTINIANS.
OF COURSE, ALL THESE DECADES LATER, THERE'S NO PEACE.
ISRAEL ALWAYS BLAMES THE PALESTINIANS FOR NOT GRABBING A CHANCE WHEN IT'S THERE OR WALKING AWAY FROM ALL THE BEST OPPORTUNITIES IT HAS GIVEN BACKED BY THE UNITED STATES, ET CETERA.
PALESTINIANS ALWAYS BLAME ISRAEL FOR NOT BEING SERIOUS, FOR CONTINUING TO BUILD SETTLEMENTS WHILE TALKING THE PEACE TALK.
GIVEN THAT, WHAT IS YOUR ACTUAL HOPE FOR THIS DYNAMIC TO BE BROKEN?
DO YOU THINK IT EVER WILL BE?
>> NOT AS LONG AS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS THE SETTLERS IN THE GOVERNMENT.
>> IT DIDN'T BEFORE.
>> BUT THE LABOR ESTABLISHED MORE SETTLEMENTS THAN THEY COULD.
THEY HAVE 17 SETTLEMENTS CONTINUOUSLY SINCE 1967, CONTINUOUSLY.
MORE SO AT CERTAIN TIMES THAN OTHER TIMES, BUT CONTINUOUSLY SINCE '67.
THEY HAVE NOT WANTED TO RETURN THE TERRITORIES THEY OCCUPIED, EVEN THEN.
THEY KEPT MAKING ONE EXCUSE AFTER THE OTHER AND BLAMING THE PALESTINIANS.
THAT'S THE DYNAMIC THAT HAS CONTINUED.
IT'S THE DYNAMIC THAT MY FATHER REALIZED THAT THE ONLY WAY IN '67 WAS TO ESTABLISH PEACE WITH THE ISRAELIS SO THEY DON'T CONTINUE WITH THE SETTLEMENTS AND DON'T BECOME MORE EXTREME AS THEY HAVE BECOME.
HE HAS BEEN PROVEN RIGHT.
>> WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR FATHER?
YOU WERE A TEENAGER WHEN THAT TOOK PLACE.
YOU WENT ON TO BE A LAWYER.
YOU FOUNDED AL-HAQ, THE HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP.
YOU ARE AN ACTIVIST.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM EVERYTHING YOU SAW AS YOU WERE GROWING UP?
HAS THAT BEEN CHANGED IRREVOCABLY?
>> MY FATHER WAS ADAMANT THAT THEY HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER AND WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO LIVE TOGETHER.
I CONTINUED WITH THAT VISION.
SINCE OCTOBER 7th, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, BECAUSE THE HUMAN -- IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE HOW WE CAN MAKE PEACE.
>> I WANT TO PUT TO YOU WHAT YOU JUST SAID.
I WANT TO READ -- I HAVE INTERVIEWED SOME ISRAELI WRITERS AS WELL.
IT SEEMS LIKE THE ARTISTS, THE CULTURAL LEADERS, PUBLIC THINKERS BELIEVE LIKE YOU DO THAT THERE MUST BE A FAIR, JUST SOLUTION FOR BOTH PEOPLE.
WE WILL PLAY THIS.
>> THERE IS A PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
THEY HAVE ARRIVA RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION AND A CONNECTION TO THE LAND.
AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S A JEWISH PEOPLE.
IT HAS A RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.
IT, TOO, HAS A DEEP CONNECTION TO THE SAME LAND.
THIS IS JUST A REALITY.
>> DO YOU AGREE WITH HIS FRAMING?
>> I AGREE THAT BOTH PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.
THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DENIED THE RIGHT FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
IT WILL NOT END UNTIL THEY HAVE OBTAINED THAT RIGHT.
>> DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT HE TOLD ME, THAT BOTH PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS IN THEIR HEARTS BELIEVE THAT THE OTHER WANTS TO ERADICATE THEM?
>> I THINK YES.
I THINK THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN WILLING TO LIVE WITH THE ISRAELIS AND HAVE SHOWN THAT WILLINGNESS, EVEN THOUGH THE ACCORDS WERE TERRIBLE.
I REMEMBER AFTER THE OSLO ACCORD IN '93, MOST MILITANT SAID WE HAVE A FUTURE, WE HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER AND WE HAVE A FUTURE.
I THINK THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN READY TO LIVE WITH THE ISRAELIS AND TO MAKE PEACE BASED ON JUSTICE AND SPLITTING THE LAND BETWEEN THE TWO PEOPLE.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE MILITANTS, MAYBE THEN THEY WERE READY, BUT NOT THE HAMAS PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHOWN THEMSELVES UNREADY AND EMPOWERED.
THIS IS WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA NOW.
MORE AND MORE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE DARING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST HAMAS.
THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING, THESE GUYS ARE USELESS AT GOVERNANCE.
THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO RAINING THIS HELL ON US.
WE HEAR ABOUT SINWAR AND OTHER LEADERS WHO ESSENTIALLY BELIEVE -- THEY TOLD JOURNALISTS THAT UNLESS IT BLEEDS, IT DOESN'T LEAD.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE MORE BLOOD, THE MORE SPOTLIGHT ON OUR SITUATION.
WE SPOKE TO A DOCTOR WHO SAVED SINWAR'S LIFE IN AN ISRAELI PRISON.
HE SAID SINWAR TOLD HIM, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 PALESTINIAN DEATHS WOULD BE WORTH LIKE OTHER LIBERATION MOVEMENTS, VIETMAN, ALGERIA, WOULD BE WORTH IT IF WE GOT OUR RIGHTS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
>> I THINK THIS IS TOO HARSH.
AT THE SAME TIME, ISRAEL COULD NOT HAVE CONTINUED TO OPPRESS THE PALESTINIANS AND PUT THEM IN THE OPEN AIR PRISON AND EXPECT THEM TO BE CALM AND SILENT AND NOT RESIST.
HAMAS RESISTED.
THEY HAD THE RIGHT TO RESIST.
THE BLOCKADE WAS AN ACT OF WAR ON THE PART OF ISRAEL WHICH CONTINUED FOR 16 YEARS.
AN ACT OF WAR CAN BE RESISTED UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.
THEY RESISTED.
THEY HAD RIGHT TO DO THAT.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL ISRAELIS.
>> YOU CALL WHAT THEY DID A CRIME?
>> YEAH.
BREAKING THE BARRIER -- >> YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BREAKING THE BARRIER AND GOING AFTER MILITARY TARGETS.
>> EXACTLY.
>> AND YOU SAY IT'S A CRIME TO HAVE KILLED ALL THOSE CIVILIANS AND TAKEN THEM HOSTAGE?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> TELL ME ABOUT PALESTINIAN CULTURE.
THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN ISRAEL AND EVEN OUTSIDE WHO TALK ABOUT PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, BUT NOT A PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
I WONDER WHETHER PEOPLE YOU RUN ACROSS KNOW ABOUT PALESTINIAN LITERATURE, POETRY, CUISINE, FARMING, CULTURE.
>> NOW WITH THE TRAGEDY OF GAZA, THERE'S MORE OPENNESS TO LISTEN AND APPRECIATE PALESTINE AND PALESTINIAN CULTURE.
MORE OPEN TO THAT.
THERE'S OPENINGS TO UNDERSTAND, TO LEARN ABOUT THE HISTORY, TO LEARN ABOUT THE CULTURE.
I THINK PALESTINIAN CULTURE IS FLOURISHING EVEN NOW IN THE WEST BANK.
THERE ARE EXHIBITS AND LITERATURE AND WRITING AND SO ON.
THE PALESTINIANS ARE VERY RESILIENT.
ANYBODY WHO -- ANY NATION WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH WHAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP, BUT THE PALESTINIANS DON'T GIVE UP.
THEY ARE RESILIENT AND VERY CREATIVE.
>> ONE WOULD SAY JEWS HAVE THAT IN COMMON WITH PALESTINIANS AS WELL.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> I TALKED TO ANOTHER ISRAELI WRITER.
SHE SAID THAT HER FATHER BELIEVED AND SHE BELIEVED THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE STORY OF THE OTHER.
THERE WAS NO ROUTE TO PEACE UNLESS YOU CAN, FOR WANT OF A BETTER TERM, SHARE A CUP OF TEA OR HAVE A MEAL.
I ASSUME YOU AGREE WITH THAT.
BUT DO YOU THINK IT'S CONCEIVABLE IN THE CURRENT CONDITIONS?
>> NOW THAT THEY HAVE DEHUMANIZED THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, IT'S NOT CONCEIVABLE.
THEY DON'T THINK OF THE PALESTINIANS AS HUMAN BEINGS.
AND DESTRUCTION, MAKING GAZA UNINHABITABLE.
IT'S DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE HOW THEY CAN MOVE BEYOND THAT.
EVENTUALLY, WE HAVE TO.
WE HAVE TO.
>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, YOU CAN SEE THAT UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
YOU CAN SEE THAT CULTURAL CENTERS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
YOU CAN SEE A LOT OF STUFF WE CAN'T SEE BECAUSE WE'RE NOT IN THERE.
THE LOCAL PEOPLE SEE IT.
THE LOCAL JOURNALISTS THERE ARE TELLING US.
DO YOU SEE AN INTENT IN TERMS OF WIPING OUT PALESTINIAN CULTURE?
OR DO YOU SEE IT AS PART OF THE GENERAL DESTRUCTION OF GAZA IN THIS PURSUIT OF HAMAS?
>> I THINK THERE'S AN INTENT.
I THINK THERE'S AN INTENT TO DESTROY GAZA AND CULTURE IN GAZA.
I THINK THAT THERE'S A DENIAL BY THE ISRAELIS JUST AS THERE WAS A DENIAL ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF GAZA AND THE PEOPLE OF GAZA ENTIRELY.
>> TELL ME A LITTLE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WRITER IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT YOU FIND YOURSELF IN.
>> IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO WRITE THIS BOOK," WHAT DOES ISRAEL FEAR FROM PALESTINE?"
BECAUSE I WAS WRITING IN THE COURSE OF CONTINUOUS ACTION AND UPDATES AND SO ON.
THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT.
AT THE SAME TIME, IT SAVED ME BECAUSE IT GAVE ME SOMETHING TO DO RATHER THAN SIT AND WATCH TELEVISION AND BE LIKE A VOYEUR LOOKING AT THE SUFFERING OF GAZA.
IT WAS A LIFE SAVER FOR ME.
I THINK WRITERS -- THE FACT THAT IT'S SO WELL RECEIVED IS UPLIFTING.
IT'S MY CONTRIBUTION.
I FEEL LIKE I MADE A CONTRIBUTION IN THAT WAY AS A WRITER.
>> WHAT WILL YOUR NEXT BOOK BE, DO YOU THINK?
YOU MUST GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT OR SIT IN YOUR GARDEN AND WONDER, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE SUBSTANCE OF MY NEXT BOOK.
>> I STARTED THE NEXT BOOK.
I DON'T DESCRIBE WHEN I'M WRITING.
>> IS IT OPTIMISTIC OR PESSIMISTIC?
>> OPTIMISTIC, OF COURSE.
>> WE NEAT OPTIMISMS.
RAJA SHEHADEH, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
PLEASURE.
>>> FEARS ARE MOUNTING AROUND ACCESS TO OUR MOST VITAL RESOURCES, FOOD AND WATER.
"THE GRAB" IS A DOCUMENTARY THAT CHRONICLES THE WAY SOME COUNTRIES ARE ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL THE RESOURCES.
HERE IS A CLIP.
>> FOOD IS BECOMING MORE POWERFUL THAN OIL.
>> HOW DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO END?
>> IT'S NOT JUST CHINA, NOT JUST RUSSIA.
THIS IS WALL STREET, BIG MONEY, LEASING LAND TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
>> I THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE MORE TO IT THAN THAT.
TURNS OUT, THERE WAS.
>> IT'S LIKE A WHO IS WHO.
THE MVPs OF THE MERCENARY WORLD.
>> WHAT IF THERE'S AN UPRISING?
>> THAT'S WHERE WE COME IN.
>> PRIVATE MILITARY CORPORATIONS.
>> ONE OF THE MOST NOTORIOUS MERCENARY.
>> NATE HALVERSON AND GABRIELA COWPERTHWAITE JOIN HARI TO DISCUSS WHETHER THE FIGHT OVER OUR MOST PRECIOUS COMMODITIES COULD LEAD TO THE NEXT MAJOR GEOPOLITICAL CONFLICT.
>> THANKS.
NATE, GABRIELA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
YOU HAVE A NEW FILM OUT CALLED "THE GRAB."
IT'S ABOUT HOW FOOD AND WATER ARE GOING TO AFFECT THE GEOPOLITICS OF EVERYTHING GOING FORWARD.
BEFORE WE GET INTO OUR CONVERSATION, I WANT TO SET UP THIS CLIP HERE.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE TRAILER.
>> EVERY CENTURY IS CHARACTERIZED BY A KEY COMMODITY.
>> FOOD IS A VERY OBVIOUS AND CENTRAL WAY TO WIELD POWER.
>> I CAME ACROSS THIS CLASSIFIED CABLE TELLING COMPANIES TO GO OVERSEAS AND BUY UP FOOD AND WATER RESOURCES.
A LOT OF THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE SHADOWS, QUIETLY.
>> NATE, GIVE US THIS 30,000 FOOT VIEW, IF YOU CAN.
YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING DIFFERENT -- PULLING AT DIFFERENT THREADS FOR A DECADE NOW.
HOW DID YOU PUT IT TOGETHER IN THIS LONGER ARC?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
WHEN I FIRST STARTED LOOKING AT THIS, I DIDN'T HAVE A STRONG UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS GOING ON, THAT WE MOVED INTO THIS NEW EPOCH.
IT'S A TOP LINE NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE.
THEY ELEVATED THESE ISSUES TO BEGIN TO WONDER, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO FOOD THEIR POPULATIONS GOING FORWARD?
HOW DOES FOOD AND WATER BECOME A GEOPOLITICAL TOOL AS THESE RESOURCES GROW INCREASINGLY SCARCE?
>> FROM THE OUTSIDE, IF SOMEBODY SAYS, THERE'S GOING TO BE A LARGE IMPACT, THE FILM REPORTING IS IMPORTANT.
>> LEARNING ABOUT NATE'S INITIAL REPORTING AND KIND OF -- HE STARTED REPORTING OUT A FEW OF THESE STORIES.
THE CHINA SMITHFIELD STORY, ARIZONA WATER STORY.
THOSE I SAW AS PORTALS OF ENTRY TO THIS BIGGER ISSUE WHICH WAS REALLY ESSENTIALLY THAT POWERFUL ENTITIES ARE GRABBING UP FINAL RESOURCES THAT ARE LEFT OUT FROM UNDERNEATH US AND LARGELY WITHOUT US KNOWING IT.
THAT FELT JAW-DROPPING TO ME WHEN REPORTED OUT ALL THE DIFFERENT ITERATIONS.
IT FELT KIND OF CONNECTED BUT VERY IMPORTANT.
>> FOR AN AUDIENCE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE REPORTS YOU DID ON SMITHFIELD FOODS AND HOW THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WAS -- AND THE CHINESE NATIONAL BANK WAS BACKING A PURCHASE FOR SMITHFIELD, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ONE IN EVERY FOUR PIGS IN THE UNITED STATES, OR THE ARIZONA WATER STORY, WHAT DO THESE IDEAS HAVE IN COMMON?
>> THAT SMITHFIELD FOOD STORY WAS WHEN CHINA'S LARGEST MEAT COMPANY EFFECTIVELY PURCHASED ONE IN FOUR AMERICAN PIGS WITH THE FINANCIAL BACKING AND ALSO AT THE DIRECTING OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.
IT WAS PART OF THE FIVE-YEAR PLAN TO GO OVERSEAS AND TO BUY UP FOOD AND WATER SUPPLIES.
CHINA NO LONGER HAS ENOUGH WATER TO GROW ENOUGH FOOD TO MEET THEIR GROWING DEMAND, WHICH IS REALLY A DEMAND DRIVEN BY THEIR GROWING MIDDLE CLASS.
PEOPLE BECOME WEALTHIER.
THEY WANT TO EAT MORE MEAT.
MEAT REQUIRES MORE WATER TO GROW MORE FOOD TO PRODUCE.
WE SAW THIS REACH BY CHINA ACROSS THE WORLD, INCLUDING INTO THE UNITED STATES.
AFTER I DID THAT STORY, I BEGAN WONDERING, IS THIS JUST A ONE OFF?
IS CHINA THE ONLY EXAMPLE OF THIS TREND?
IT TURNS OUT DEFINITELY NOT.
ONE OF THE OTHER STORIES THAT I FOUND WAS THAT THE LARGEST DAIRY COMPANY IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAD GONE INTO THE ARIZONA DESERT AND BOUGHT ESSENTIALLY 15 SQUARE MILES OF CACTUS-LIKE DESERT AND WAS PUMPING THE WATER UP TO GROW HAY TO FEED THE COWS THERE.
IF YOU BUY THE LAND, YOU EFFECTIVELY CAN PUMP UP AS MUCH OF THAT WATER AS YOU WANT.
THAT'S WHAT WE WERE SEEING WHERE PEOPLE IN ARIZONA IN THESE LOCAL COMMUNITIES DIDN'T REALIZE THERE WAS THIS GLOBAL GRAB FOR THEIR WATER.
WHAT THEY DID SEE WAS THAT THEIR DOMESTIC WELLS IN THEIR HOMES WERE GOING DRY.
THAT'S THE TREND WE'RE NOT JUST SEEING IN ARIZONA OR IN THE U.S.
BUT WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
>> NATE, WHY IS ZAMBIA AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN AFRICA?
WHY GO THERE?
WE HAVE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LAND RIGHTS ON THIS PROGRAM.
WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE IS A MICROCOSM OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.
>> IT HAS WATER.
IT'S INEXPENSIVE.
IT'S A PRIME PLACE TO BE ABLE TO GO IN AND CREATE VALUE FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE INVESTING IN FARMLAND AND TO BE ABLE TO EXPORT CROPS TO OTHER WEALTHIER COUNTRIES.
IT'S NOT THAT ZAMBIA ISN'T A COUNTRY OF LAWS.
IT IS.
IT'S THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS HIGHLY REGARDED.
WHEN YOU LIVE IN A REMOTE AREA, YOU DON'T SPEAK THE PREDOMINANT GOVERNMENT LANGUAGE OF THE GOVERNMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO JUSTICE.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE MONEY TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY, TO GET TO COURT, YOU EFFECTIVELY THEN HAVE NO JUSTICE.
THAT'S WHAT WE SAW WAS THAT FOLKS THAT -- THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEIR RIGHTS.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ACCESS THEIR RIGHTS.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO ACCESS THEIR RIGHTS.
IT BECOMES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR OTHERS.
>> THERE'S A SCENE WHEN YOU MENTIONED ZAMBIA, YOU ALL TRY TO GO THERE.
YOU ARE DETAINED AT THE AIRPORT.
I'M NOT GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY.
YOUR NAMES ARE ON A LIST.
YOU ARE NOT WELCOME.
>> RIGHT THERE, SMACK DAB ON IT WAS OUR NAMES AND PASSPORT NUMBERS.
THEY WERE DEFINITELY WAITING FOR US.
>> WHAT'S GOING ON NOW, NATE?
>> WE'RE GETTING KICKED OUT.
APPARENTLY, INTELLIGENCE SAYS OUR REPORTING IS A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT.
THIS IS WHAT WE WERE TOLD.
>> I GUESS, WHAT HAPPENED TO HOW YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT THE REPORTING, NATE?
>> YEAH.
I THINK THE BIG TAKEAWAY IS WHEN YOU GO TO A COUNTRY AND YOU LAND THERE TO REPORT ON ESSENTIALLY FARMING, ON FOOD AND WATER, AND YOU ARE IMMEDIATELY DETAINED AND PUT INTO A DETENTION CELL AND YOU SEE YOUR NAMES AND PASSPORT NUMBERS UP ON THE POLICE BLOTTER, YOU REALIZE THAT FOOD AND WATER HAVE REALLY RISEN TO THAT LEVEL, THAT WHEN YOU SHOW UP TO REPORT ON THEM, YOU GET DETAINED.
I THINK THAT IS A KEY TAKEAWAY OF HOW WE ARE SHIFTING INTO THE 21st CENTURY WITH REGARD TO THE IMPORTANCE OF FOOD AND WATER.
>> NATE, WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING INTO HOW AFRICA IS THIS, WELL, FERTILE GROUND FOR FOOD AND WATER FOR THESE MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS AS WELL AS GROUPS THAT YOU DON'T EXPECT, AN INTERESTING NAME COMES UP.
THAT'S ERIK PRINCE.
MOST PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH ERIK PRINCE AS THE HEAD OF BLACKWATER SECURITIES.
DOING CONTRACTS FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.
WHAT'S THE ROLE THAT HE IS PLAYING IN THIS OR WAS PLAYING IN THIS?
>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
IT KIND OF STARTED FOR ME PERSONALLY AS I WAS READING U.N. RECORDS AND WORLD BANK REPORTS.
THEY SAY 50% TO 60% OF THE LAND LEFT IN THE WORLD THAT COULD FEED THE GROWING GLOBAL POPULATION IS IN AFRICA.
I BEGAN THINKING, OKAY, I'M SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ARIZONA IN THE U.S. AND ELSEWHERE.
WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN AFRICA?
WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?
I HAD SEEN HIM SAY THAT HE HAD STARTED A PRIVATE EQUITY COMPANY THAT WAS GOING TO BE INVESTING IN LAND IN AFRICA FOR FARMLAND.
WE GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION ON WHAT ERIK PRINCE WAS DOING THERE AND WHO HE WAS FINANCIALLY SUPPORTING, BUT GOVERNMENT AND POWERFUL ENTITIES WERE BACKING HIM TO GO INTO AFRICA TO BUY UP LAND TO BE ABLE TO EXPORT FOOD TO WEALTHIER COUNTRIES.
>> DID YOU TRY TO REACH OUT TO HIM?
WHAT DID HE HAVE TO SAY?
>> I DID.
I TRIED TO REACH OUT MULTIPLE TIMES.
IT WAS ALWAYS, NO COMMENT.
I WENT TO THEIR OFFICES.
ONE OF HIS OFFICES IN HONG KONG, EMAILS SPOKESPEOPLE.
ALWAYS, NO COMMENT.
>> THERE'S A SECTION IN THE FILM WHERE YOU START TALKING ABOUT REALLY HOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO AFFECT THE PLANET AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE UNINTENDED OPPORTUNITIES, I GUESS, THAT CLIMATE CHANGE PRESENTS.
YOU HAVE THIS MAP OF BASICALLY SECTIONS OF GLACIERS THAWING IN RUSSIA AND HOW IT COULD BECOME A NEW IOWA.
IT WAS A VERY INTERESTING SCENE WHERE I HAD NO IDEA THAT RUSSIA WAS IMPORTING AMERICAN COWBOYS.
>> MY WIFE SEEN AN AD ON THE INTERNET.
AS A JOKE, SHE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUNNY.
SHE PUT MY RESUME IN.
I WAS GETTING READY TO WATCH SUNDAY FOOTBALL IN NEBRASKA.
THIS SKYPE THING COME OVER THE COMPUTER.
I HOLLERED AT HER.
SHE GOT PANICKY AND SAID, YOU NEED TO TALK TO HIM.
IT'S ABOUT A JOB.
I ANSWERED IT.
30 MINUTES LATER, I WAS HIRED.
PRETTY MUCH MY WIFE DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS FUNNY AFTER ALL THAT.
NOW WE ARE PACKING UP AND GOING TO RUSSIA.
HERE WE GO.
YOU BETTER GIVE 'EM SOME AIR.
HE IS TAPPED OUT.
>> WHY WERE THEY DOING THAT?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
I THINK HERE IN THE U.S., THE IDEA OF CLIMATE CHANGE CAN BE CONTENTIOUS.
SOME PEOPLE ARE SKEPTIC.
WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN ISN'T.
HE IS BASICALLY SAYING THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING AND IT MEANS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BUY LESS FUR AND ARE ABLE TO GROW MORE FOOD.
THE REASON IT HAPPENS IS AS GROWING SEASON DAYS, WHICH JUST MEANS THAT THEY CAN GROW MORE CROPS, MORE VARIETY, FARTHER UP NORTH, MORE LAND.
THEY HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WATER.
PUTIN HAS SAID HE SEES THAT AS A GEOPOLITICAL ASSET, THAT BASICALLY THEY ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO FEED THE WORLD.
BY FEEDING THE WORLD, THEY WILL BE ABLE TO USE THAT AS A TOOL TO HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES SEE THINGS THE WAY THEY SEE THEM.
ONE WAY TO DO THAT WAS TO IMPORT AMERICAN COWBOYS TO BEGIN HELPING RUSSIA TO BUILD UP THE WORLD'S LARGEST CATTLE HERD, TO BE ABLE TO FEED BEEF TO OTHER COUNTRIES.
WE FOUND THESE SPUR-WEARING LEATHER-CHAP WEARING COWBOYS FROM NEBRASKA, MONTANA, IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE RUSSIA, TRAINING UP RUSSIANS TO BECOME COWBOYS.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS INTERESTING WATCHING THE FILM IS, WE ARE ALL NOW VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE INVASION OF UKRAINE BY RUSSIA.
IN SOME OF THE FOOTAGE THAT YOU HAD FOUND, THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY A CANAL IN CRIMEA THAT I BET THE BULK OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING THIS DOCUMENTARY HAD NEVER HEARD ABOUT MUCH LESS THOUGHT ABOUT.
THE FOOTAGE OF DRONE STRIKES OR MISSILE STRIKES ON GRAIN SILOS IN UKRAINE, HOW ESSENTIALLY FOOD IS ONE OF THE TARGETS OF THE WAR AND COULD BE ONE OF THE BIG REASONS WHY THIS INVASION EVEN HAPPENED.
>> YEAH.
THEY DO SAY THE WORLD HAS DEEMED UKRAINE AS ONE OF THE FINAL BREAD BASKETS, A COUNTRY THAT'S GOING TO BE FEEDING THE WORLD AND FEEDING A LOT OF POVERTY-STRICKEN NATIONS AS WELL.
REALLY BEING ABLE TO RELY ON THAT COUNTRY AS A PLANET IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE ALL KIND OF ASSUMED WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT -- THIS PLACE IS GOING TO BE INTACT.
NO ONE WILL TOUCH THAT.
THE IDEA THAT THIS -- THIS STEMS DIRECTLY FROM THE RUSSIAN COWBOYS AND THE BEEF, BUT IF RUSSIA IS ABLE TO CONTROL BEEF AND CAN ALSO CONTROL GRAIN, YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE'S NO BETTER EXAMPLE OF A GRAB, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THAT WAY.
EVERYTHING THAT NATE IS SAYING ABOUT THE GEOPOLITICS OF WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING BORE OUT IN THIS ONE STORY.
>> IT'S NOT JUST FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR COMPANIES COMING IN AND BUYING PROPERTY AND FARMLAND IN THE U.S.
THERE ARE U.S. COMPANIES OR ONES BASED IN THE U.S. THAT ARE USING THIS LAND OR LEASING IT OUT TO OTHER COUNTRIES OR COMPANIES.
>> CHINA DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH WATER TO FEED ITS POPULATION.
THE REASON THAT THEY ARE SUCH LARGE FOOD IMPORTERS IS THAT THEY ARE IMPORTING FOOD AS A PROXY FOR WATER.
SO OUR WAY IS BASICALLY BUYING FARMLAND.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE FOCUSING ON AREAS THAT ARE WATER RICH AND THAT CAN AREAS THAT ARE WATER POOR.
WE PURCHASED A FARM IN SOUTHWEST ARKANSAS THAT'S 25,000 ACRES IN SIZE.
TO PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE, THAT'S CLOSE TO TWO TIMES THE SIZE OF MANHATTAN.
>> WHAT'S THE STATE OF PLAY OR THE LANDSCAPE, IF YOU WILL, ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HOW THIS OWNERSHIP WORKS AND WHETHER THESE RESOURCES OF WATER OR FOOD CAN BE EXPORTED?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THERE IS A FEDERAL LAW THAT REQUIRES FOREIGN OWNERSHIPS TO REGISTER WHEN PURCHASING FARMLAND.
MY UNDERSTANDING IS THE COMPLIANCE ISN'T THAT GREAT.
THERE ARE STATES THAT HAVE SOME RESTRICTIONS ON HOW FOREIGN OWNERSHIP CAN OWN LAND.
FOR INSTANCE, IOWA HAS SOME RESTRICTIONS ON IT.
BUT ALSO, THERE'S JUST -- THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS AROUND WHO ULTIMATELY OWNS A COMPANY THAT CAN MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND AT THE END OF THE DAY WHOSE MONEY IS IT THAT'S BUYING THAT FARMLAND.
I THINK THERE'S AN INCREASING INTEREST ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL, STATE LEVELS, TO UNDERSTAND WHO IS PURCHASING THE LAND.
WE ARE SEEING SOME PUSH FROM LAWMAKERS IN THAT REGARD.
>> GABRIELA, WHAT SURPRISED YOU WHEN YOU MADE THIS FILM?
>> I WAS BLOWN AWAY THAT THERE'S NO NATIONAL WATER POLICY.
NATE REPORTED THIS OUT THAT THERE'S NOT ONLY NOT A NATIONAL WATER POLICY, THERE'S NO NATIONAL WATER STRATEGY.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO PROTECT US AND THINK ABOUT WATER IN MUCH MORE OF A SIMILAR WAY THAT CHINA AND RUSSIA DO?
WHICH IS, YOU ARE PLAYING A LONG GAME.
THEY ARE IN THE 21st CENTURY THINKING ABOUT BURGEONING POPULATIONS AND WHAT TO DO TO FEED THEM.
WE AND OUR WATER LAWS ARE 19th CENTURY.
SOME ARE LITERALLY FROM THE 19th CENTURY.
TRYING TO BUILD CONSENSUS OVER WHAT WE DO WITH WHAT WE HAVE LEFT SEEMS A NO BRAINER.
BUT WE ARE NOT THERE YET.
>> NATE AND GABRIELA, THE FILM IS "THE GRAB."
YOU CAN FIND IT ON MOST ONLINE STREAMING PLATFORMS.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
>> THANKS SO MUCH.
>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, HEAVY METAL AND HIJABS.
♪♪♪ THIS ALL FEMALE MUSLIM ROCK GROUP WILL MAKE HISTORY THIS FRIDAY BECOMING THE FIRST INDONESIAN BAND TO PLAY AT BRITAIN'S FAMOUS FESTIVAL.
THE TRIO SING OF FEMALE EMPOWERMENT, LAMENTING THE FIXATION ON THEIR APPEARANCE INSTEAD OF THEIR MUSIC.
THEY PERFORMED ABROAD BEFORE.
THIS WILL BE THE BIGGEST GIG YET.
SHARING SPACES WITH COLDPLAY AND SHANIA TWAIN.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.COM/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.