June 26, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE TRIAL OF AMERICAN JOURNALIST EVAN GERSHKOVICH BEGINS IN MOSCOW.

WE HAVE THE LATEST.

THEN -- >> Translator: MY SON DIE BFRD MY EYES AND I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING, SHE SAYS.

>> A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE PALESTINIAN FAMILY CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A HOSTAGE RESCUE OPERATION IN GAZA.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> FREE FREE FREE, FREE PALESTINE.

>> AFTER ANTI-WAR PROTESTS DIVIDED COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, I'M JOINED BY THE JEWISH AND ARAB PROFESSORS TEACHING STUDENTS THERE HOW TO DISAGREE WHILE ALSO SEEING EACH OTHER.

AND -- >> THE FACT THAT I HAD TURNED AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AND HAD CRITICIZED DONALD TRUMP WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR FOR THEM, AND THEY TURNED ON US IN OUR OWN CHURCH.

>> "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST DAVID FRENCH ITEMS MICHEL MARTIN HOW TURNING AGAINST TRUMP GOT HIM CANCELED BY HIS OWN CHURCH.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AFTER 15 MONTHS IN A RUSSIAN PRISON ON TRUMPED UP CHARGES OF ESPIONAGE, THE AMERICAN JOURNALIST EVAN GERSHKOVICH IS FINALLY FACING TRIAL.

HIS FAMILY, HIS PAPER, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND THE U.S. GOVERNMENT ALL EXPRESS OUTRAGE, CALLING THE CHARGES FALSE AND CYNICAL.

THE 32-YEAR-OLD REPORTER FACES UP TO 20 YEARS IN JAIL IF CONVICTED.

GERSHKOVICH HAS APPEARED IN A COURT IN A REMOTE PART OF RUSSIA, WHERE PROCEEDINGS GOT UNDER WAY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

APART FROM A BRIEF PHOTO-OP TODAY, GERSHKOVICH IS UNLIKELY TO BE SEEN AGAIN UNTIL THE PROCESS ENDS.

MATTHEW CHANCE HAS THE DETAILS.

>> Reporter: THIS IS THE FIRST GLIMPSE OF EVAN GERSHKOVICH FOR MONTHS.

CAMERAS BRIEFLY ALLOWED INTO THE COURTHOUSE ABOUT 1,000 MILES FROM MOSCOW, WHERE HIS TRIAL FOR ESPIONAGE IS FINALLY UNDER WAY.

HIS HEAD SHAVED, THE 32-YEAR-OLD REPORTER LOOKED CALM, BUT HE FACES A SENTENCE OF UP TO 20 YEARS IF, OR LIKELY WHEN, HE'S FOUND GUILTY.

IN A STATEMENT, THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF "THE JOURNAL" WROTE, "THIS BOGUS ACCUSATION OF ESPIONAGE WILL INEVITABLY LEAD TO A BOGUS CONVICTION FOR AN INNOCENT MAN."

HI, MATTHEW FROM CNN.

ARE YOU HOLDING UP ALL RIGHT?

NO QUESTIONS?

FOR NEARLY 15 MONTHS, GERSHKOVICH HAS BEEN HELD UNDER TIGHT SECURITY IN MOSCOW'S NOTORIOUS PRISON.

HE, HIS EMPLOYER, AND U.S. GOVERNMENT ALL VIGOROUSLY DENY THE SPYING ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM.

BUT RUSSIA APPEARS DETERMINED TO PRESS AHEAD, DESPITE OFFICIAL U.S.

OBJECTIONS.

A NEW STATEMENT FROM THE U.S. EMBASSY IN MOSCOW SAYS, "EVAN DID NOT COMMIT ANY YOU LEGAL ACTS, AND SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AT ALL.

THIS TRIAL SUSPECT ABOUT THE PRESENTATION OF EVIDENCE, DUE PROCESS, OR THE RULE OF LAW.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE KREMLIN USING AMERICAN CITIZENS TO ACHIEVE ITS POLITICAL GOALS," THE STATEMENT ADDS.

WITH THE CONFLICT RAGING IN UKRAINE, RUSSIAN BEGAN A CRACKDOWN AT HOME ON FREE SPEECH.

SILENCING DISSIDENTS OR FORCING THEM INTO EXILE.

IT'S AGAINST THIS BACKDROP THAT GERSHKOVICH WAS ARRESTED ON A REPORTING ASSIGNMENT IN THE RUSSIAN CITY.

THIS IS VIDEO FROM THE WEBSITE OF THE TANK FACTORY THERE WHERE RUSSIAN PROSECUTORS ALLEGE GERSHKOVICH ACTED, QUOTE, ON THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE CIA TO COLLECT SECRET INFORMATION, ALTHOUGH NO EVIDENCE HAS BEEN MADE PUBLIC.

THE TRIAL WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE CITY WHICH IS ABOUT 1,000 MILES FROM MOSCOW, AMID AN OUTCRY.

>> JOURNALISM IS NOT A CRIME.

>> JOURNALISM IS NOT A CRIME.

>> SOME OF THE MOST PROMINENT JOURNAL U.S.S IN THE UNITED STATES ARE CALLING FOR HIS RELEASE.

AND TUCKER CARLSON EVEN APPEALS DIRECTLY TO PUTIN IN HIS RECENT SITDOWN.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU DIRECTLY, WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE DETAILS OF IT, YOUR VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED, IF AS A SIGN OF YOUR DECENCY YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO RELEASE HIM TO US AND WE'LL BRING HIM BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> Translator: WE HAVE DONE SO MANY GESTURES OF GOOD WILL, OUT OF DECENCY, THAT I THINK WE HAVE RUN OUT OF THEM.

>> Reporter: BUT THEY'RE NOT RUNNING OUT OF AMERICANS IN RUSSIAN PRISONS.

FAR FROM IT.

>> I'M INNOCENT OF ANY CHARGES.

>> Reporter: FORMER MARINE PAUL WHELAN IS SERING 16 YEARS ON WHAT U.S. OFFICIALS SAY WERE TRUMPED UP SPYING CHARGES.

THESE DUAL CITIZENS, AND THIS JOURNALIST, ARE ALSO IN CUSTODY.

AS ARE GORDON BLACK, A STAFF SERGEANT IN THE U.S. ARMY, AND U.S. SCHOOL TEACHER MARC FOGEL.

CRITICS SUSPECT THE KREMLIN IS COLLECTING U.S. CITIZENS AS BARGAINING CHIPS FOR A FUTURE DEAL.

WITH HIS TRIAL FOR ESPIONAGE NOW UNDER WAY, EVAN GERSHKOVICH IS ONE OF THE MOST VALUABLE IN THE KREMLIN'S HAND.

>> MATTHEW CHANCE REPORTING THERE.

>>> NOW, LET US GET MORE ON THIS WITH NINA KRUSH KHRUSHCHEVA.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS THERE.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME, NINA, THAT AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST HAS BEEN ACCUSED AND NOW PUT ON TRIAL UNDER THESE SPECIFIC CHARGES, SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR.

SINCE THE END OF THE SOVIET UNION.

GIVE US JUST AT THIS POINT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT MAKES THIS SO UNIQUE.

AND WHY NOW?

>> WELL, THANK YOU.

YES, IT IS -- HAS NOT HAPPENED SINCE THE COLD WAR.

UNIQUE, IT'S -- IT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE PROCESS OF COMPLETE ANIMOSITY, BECAUSE, WELL, IT'S 15 MONTHS, SO IT'S NOT REALLY UNIQUE AT THIS POINT.

IT IS 20 YEARS IN PRISON, HE'S FACING 20 YEARS IN PRISON, I DON'T WANT TO PREDICT, BUT I WOULD IMAGINE THAT EVAN GERSHKOVICH MAY GET 20 OR EVEN MORE, JUST BECAUSE HE NEEDS TO BE VERY VALUABLE PERSON TO POTENTIALLY GET EXCHANGED, SO, HE WOULD BE AS MUCH PROSECUTED AS POSSIBLE.

BUT I THINK AT THIS POINT, WE CANNOT REALLY TALK ABOUT UNIQUENESS ANYMORE.

I THINK THEY ARE, AS MATTHEW CHANCE POINTED OUT, I THINK CORRECTLY, THE RUSSIAN STATE IS TAKING PRISONERS OF ALL KINDS, AND AMERICANS, PARTICULARLY JUST BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS, OR PUTIN FEELS THAT IF AMERICA'S ALL-OUT HYBRID WAR WITH RUSSIA HELPING UKRAINE, ARMING UKRAINE, MALIGNS RUSSIA ALL OVER THE WORLD, DAMAGING PUTIN'S REPUTATION AT ALL TIMES, TALK TO HIM AND AS HE ALWAYS SAYS, IN INAPPROPRIATE TERMS, SO, ALL BETS ARE OFF, SO, THE RUSSIANS THE DO WHATEVER THEY CAN DO, BUT LET'S REMEMBER THAT PUTIN ALSO A DEESSENTIAL DENT OF THE KGB, FORMER OPERATIVES.

HE HIMSELF IS A FORMER KGB OPERATIVE.

SO, HE DOES ACT IN THIS KIND OF TOUGH-NOSED NATIONAL SECURITY WAY, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENDA, WHEN THEY COLLECT AS MANY PRISONERS AND THEY DON'T REALLY -- THEY'RE NOT APOLOGETIC FOR THAT IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, EVEN, YOU KNOW, MORE SORT OF DIRECT, I'M GOING TO PLAY YOU ANOTHER CLUB OF PUTIN IN THAT CONVERSATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON, IN WHICH HE BASICALLY OUTLINED THE PARAMETERS, I MEAN, OF A SWAP.

SO, LET'S JUST PLAY THIS.

>> Translator: THERE IS AN ONGOING DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE SPECIAL SERVICES.

THIS HAS TO BE RESOLVED IN A CALM, RESPONSIBLE, AND PROFESSIONAL MANNER.

THEY'RE KEEPING IN TOUCH, SO, LET THEM DO THEIR WORK.

I DO NOT RULE OUT THAT THE PERSON YOU REFER TO, MR. GERSHKOVICH, MAY RETURN TO HIS MOTHER LATER.

BY THE END OF THE DAY, IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO KEEP HIM IN PRISON IN RUSSIA.

WE WANT THE U.S. SPECIAL SERVICES TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE TO ACHIEVING THE GOALS OUR SPECIAL SERVICES ARE PURSUING.

WE ARE READY TO TALK, MOREOVER, THE TALKS ARE ON THEIR WAY.

>> NINA, THERE'S JUST NO DOUBT HE'S LAYING IT OUT, THIS IS A -- A BARGAINING CHIP, AS WE'VE ALL SAID.

NOW, HE ALSO, PUTIN, IMPLIED THAT THE PERSON THEY WANT BACK IN RETURN FOR GERSHKOVICH IS VADIM KRASKOV, AN FSB OPERATIVE WHO IS SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE IN GERMANY FOR HAVING BEEN CONVICTED OF KILLING A CHECHEN, THAT WAS BACK IN 2019.

DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS TYPE, THIS FELLOW?

I MEAN, IS HE THE WORST OF THE WORST?

WHY WOULD PUTIN BE HOLDING EVAN, A VERY HIGHLY VALUABLE AMERICAN, FOR THIS PERSON?

>> WELL, HE HAS BEEN MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES AND PUTIN HIMSELF TALKED ABOUT HIM, AND PUTIN, BASICALLY, NOT BASICALLY, HE'S SAID THAT HE IS A HERO, BECAUSE HE WAS AVENGING RUSSIA, THE MOTHERLAND, AND THAT PERSON, THAT CHECHEN WHO HE KILLED, WAS THE ONE WHO WAS GOING WITH TANKS OVER THE RUSSIAN BODIES DURING THE WAR IN CHECHNYA, SO, HE WAS ONE OF THOSE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS THAT, OF COURSE, WERE SUPPOSED TO -- WERE BRINGING HARM TO THE RUSSIAN LAND.

SO, PUTIN WAS QUITE EXPLICIT OF THAT.

SO, HE'S A HERO, AND IF AMERICA WANTS GERSHKOVICH BACK, AND THEY NEED TO TALK TO GERMANY ABOUT IT.

YOU AND I SPOKE A LOT ABOUT ALEXEI NAVALNY, ABOUT HIS DEATH AND HIS LIFE, WHEN THERE WAS INFORMATION THATLEI NAVALNY COULD BE EXCHANGED, KRASKOV WAS ALSO MENTIONED.

WHEN NAVALNY DIED IN FEBRUARY, THEN, APPARENTLY, THE CONVERSATION SORT OF STOPPED, BUT I THINK KRASKOV WILL LAST COME OUT.

>> AND ONE OF THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICIALS, IN FACT, YESTERDAY OR TODAY, SAID VERY POINTEDLY THAT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT EXCHANGES GOING ON, SO, THAT WAS A MESSAGE IN RELATIONS TO EVAN GERSHKOVICH'S TRIAL IS THAT, WE'RE EAGER TO DO, WE, THE RUSSIANS, ARE EAGER TO DO THAT, BUT WE NEED TO HAVE GOOD CONDITIONS FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, THEY'RE GOING THROUGH WITH THIS PROCESS, AND GERSHKOVICH, WHO IS NOT GOING TO BE SEEN, WE UNDERSTAND, IT'S NOW IN SECRET, CAN'T GET AMERICAN OFFICIALS INTO THE COURT, CAN'T GET FAMILY OR OTHERS IN, CERTAINLY NOT HIS OWN -- HIS OWN BOSSES.

WHAT IS IT GOING TO LOOK LIKE, DO YOU THINK?

BECAUSE THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE IN A RUSSIAN TRIAL, UNLIKE IN THE WEST, AND THAT THERE'S A 99% CONVICTION RATE, ACCORDING TO CERTAIN FIGURES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PROCESS WILL LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S A CLOSED PROGRESS, BECAUSE IT'S AN ESPIONAGE CASE, AND WE SEE MORE AND MORE THAT RUSSIAN TRIALS ARE BEING CLOSED, NOT EVEN ESPIONAGE, JUST, YOU KNOW, ANY TRIAL, THEY CAN CLOSE.

SAY THAT THOSE WHO ARE ACCUSED, THAT THOSE WHO ARE ACCUSED, THE CRIMINALS, THE TECHNICALLY CRIMINALS, THEY'RE BEING THREATENED BECAUSE THEY SPEAK THE TRUTH, SO, THEY CAN DO ANYTHING.

I MEAN, THERE IS REALLY NO LEGAL SYSTEM IN RUSSIA, SO, THAT'S NOT EVEN AN UNDERSTATEMENT, THERE'S JUST NO SUCH THING.

IT IS A CLOSED TRIAL.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL LAST.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DECISIONS WILL BE.

I WOULD THINK THAT GERSHKOVICH IS GOING TO GET AS MUCH -- AS MUCH PRISON SENTENCE AS POSSIBLE, BECAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE HIM EVEN MORE OF A VALUABLE TARGET, LIKE, NOT REALLY NOT KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO BE, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH, PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS A MESSAGE TO THE AMERICANS.

>> AND BECAUSE THIS ONE IS DIRECTED AT THE AMERICANS, IT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER BROADER CRACKDOWN ON DISSENT THAT SEEMS -- WELL, THAT IS GOING ON IN RUSSIA, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE WAR.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND AND TO TALK ABOUT YET ANOTHER FIRST OF ITS KIND SINCE THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION, AND THAT IS THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF TWO WOMEN WHO ARE IN THEATER, THE DIRECTOR AND THE PLAYWRIGHT, OF A POPULAR PLAY THAT APPARENTLY WAS APPROVED BY ALL THE AUTHORITIES, THAT WAS ON STAGE AND, I THINK, GOT AN AWARD, BEFORE THE WAR STARTED, AND NOW, THESE TWO WOMEN HAVE BEEN ROUNDED UP, THEY'RE IN JAIL FOR -- FOR THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> WELL, AND THAT'S ANOTHER KIND OF WHEN I MENTIONED THE CLOSED TRIAL.

THEIR TRIAL, THIS IS THE THEATER DIRECTOR AND THE PLAYWRIGHT, WHO WAS ORIGINALLY FROM BELARUS, AND THEY -- THE PLAY THAT THEY PUT ON STAGE IS -- I HAVEN'T SEEN IT, BUT I READ THE PLAY, AND IT'S REALLY VERY INTERESTING, IT'S HOW WOMEN WHO ARE DISILLUSIONED, THEY END UP IN SYRIA AND FIGHTING FOR TERRORISM AND THEN, BECAUSE THEY'RE DISILLUSIONED THEN IN THAT KIND OF LIFE, THEY GO BACK TO RUSSIA AND THEN BEING TRIED AS CRIMINALS.

SO, IT'S A VERY TRAGIC -- TRAGIC AND BEAUTIFUL STORY AGAINST TERRORISM.

AND IN A VERY RUSSIAN FASHION, THEY GOT TWO AWARDS, VERY POPULAR AWARDS, CALLED THE GOLDEN MASK AWARDS.

THIS PLAY WAS WRITTEN, WAS READ IN PRISON, IN FEMALE PRISONS, ALL OVER RUSSIA, BECAUSE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO PREVENT THIS KIND OF TERRORIST OR DISILLUSIONED ACTIONS OUT OF SPITE TO THE STATE.

AND SO, SUDDENLY, IN A COMPLETE REVERSAL, THESE WOMEN ARE TERRORISTS, THEY'VE BEEN -- TESTIMONY OF EVERY IMPORTANT THEATER-RELATED, LITERATURE-RELATED PERSON IN RUSSIA IN THEIR DEFENSE, AND THERE'S ONE HORRIBLE PERSON, WHO IS A SECRET, SECRET INFORMER, WHO SAID, OH, THAT SEEMED TO BE RUSSIA PRESENTED IN BAD LIGHT, AND THEREFORE, THIS PLAY IS AGAINST RUSSIAN MEN.

THE TRIAL IS CLOSED, SO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE HOW IT'S GOING TO DEVELOP AND PLAY OUT.

BUT THIS IS SORT OF THE RUSSIA TODAY, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE FOREIGN AGENTS WILL ALSO DISCUSS THIS TOPIC, I THINK THERE'S ABOUT 800 FOREIGN AGENTS IN RUSSIA NOW, AND EVEN A YEAR AGO, TWO YEARS AGO, FOR SURE, THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE SUPPOSEDLY GETTING MONEY FROM -- FROM WESTERN STATES AND POTENTIALLY MALIGNED PUTIN.

NOW, IT'S ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH PUTIN.

SO, IT IS GOING TO INCREASE, AS LONG AS PUTIN STAYS IN POWER, THE MORE TOTALITARIAN STATE IT'S GOING TO BECOME.

>> WELL, YOU'VE WRAPPED THAT UP VERY CLEANLY AND CLEARLY FOR US.

ON THE ONE HAND, THIS CRACKDOWN ON DISSENT AND CREEPING TOTALITARIANISM, AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND, OUR COLLEAGUE EVAN IS A POLITICAL PAWN IN A CYNICAL GAME OF -- OF SWAPPING OPERATIVES.

NINA, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, WE TURN TO THE WAR THAT CONTINUES TO RAGE IN GAZA.

EARLY THIS MONTH, THE ISRAELI MINISTRY RESCUED FOUR ISRAELI HOSTAGES THERE.

IT'S BEEN HAILED AS A DARING SUCCESS FOR THE IDF, BUT NOW, THE DUST HAS SETTLED, ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE IS EMERGING.

IN THIS REPORT, CORRESPONDENT PAULA HANCOCKS PIECES TOGETHER THE EVIDENCE TO SEE HOW THE MILITARY'S RESCUE OPERATION HAD A DEADLY IMPACT ON SOME CIVILIANS.

AND ONE PALESTINIAN FAMILY FACING FURTHER UNBEARABLE LOSS.

>> Reporter: BY THE TIME ISRAELI FORCES LEAVE THIS HOUSE IN CENTRAL GAZA -- ONE WOMAN AND THREE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN SHOT.

A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY CLINGS TO LIFE.

THIS IS THE STORY OF ONE GAZAN FAMILY CAUGHT UP IN THE JUNE 8th RESCUE OF FOUR ISRAELI HOSTAGES BEING HELD IN NUSEIRAT.

WHEN ABDUL, THE GRANDFATHER, AND OWNER OF THE HOUSE SAW TANKS AND SPECIAL FORCES ARRIVE ON THEIR STREET, HE SAYS HIS FAMILY OF 14 HID IN ONE ROOM IN THE TOP FLOOR APARTMENT.

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT HAS BEEN RELAYED TO US BY SEVEN MEMBERS OF THE SAME FAMILY IN MULTIPLE INTERVIEWS.

MOHAMMED, FATHER OF FOUR, SAYS HE HEARD THE SOLDIERS SCREAMING, SHOOTING, AND THROWING STUN GRENADES DOWNSTAIRS.

THIS IDF VIDEO SHOWS TROOPS INSIDE THE HOUSE.

IT APPEARS HEAVILY EDITED, BUT YOU CAN HEAR WHAT SOUNDS LIKE SHOTS FIRED.

"THEY CAME UP TO THE APARTMENT," THE FATHER ADDS, "SHOOTING AND SAYING, WHO'S HERE?

WE TOLD THEM, WE ARE CIVILIANS, CHILDREN AND WOMEN ARE IN THIS ROOM."

THE BOY'S AUNT SAYS, "THE ISRAELIS CAME AND STARTED SHOOTING AT US.

I HEARD SOMEONE GROANING IN PAIN."

"THIS IS THE BLOOD OF MY SON," SHE SAYS.

"HE WAS PLEADING HERE.

AS SOON AS THE ISRAELIS ENTERED, THEY SHOT HIM.

THERE WERE BULLETS IN HIS LEG AND STOMACH."

THE 12-YEAR-OLD LATER DIED FROM HIS WOUNDS.

"MY SON DIED BEFORE MY EYES, AND I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING," SHE SAYS.

"HE WAS LOOKING AT ME, SAYING, MOM, HOLD ME, I'M BLEEDING."

SHE SAYS ANOTHER SON, 16, WAS SHOT IN THE SHOULDER AND STOMACH.

SHE WANTED TO HELP, BUT SHE SAYS THE SOLDIERS THREATENED TO KILL THEM IF SHE DID.

ANOTHER SHOT GRAZED A THIRD SON, THE BULLET STRIKING HIS AUNT IN THE LEG.

THE FAMILY HOME IS OVER A KILOMETER AWAY, ON A LIKELY EVACUATION ROUTE THE ISRAELI MILITARY USED.

THEY SAY THE BATTALION WAS THERE TO SECURE THE AREA DURING THE OPERATION.

INSIDE THE HOUSE, THE GRANDFATHER SAYS HE AND YAMMEN'S FATHER WAS TAKEN TO THE CORRIDOR, GAGGED AND BLINDFOLDED, POINTING OUT THE PLASTIC HEAD COVER LEFT BEHIND.

THE FATHER SAYS A SOLDIER WARNED HIM, "TELL ME WHERE THE RESISTANCE FIGHTERS AND WEAPONS ARE, OR I WILL BREAK YOUR HEART FOR YOUR CHILDREN."

AND HE DID IT, HE WENT TO THE ROOM A MINUTE LATER, AND I HEARD THE GUNSHOTS.

IT'S NOT CLEAR IF ANY OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS WERE HIT IN THE SECOND ROUND OF SHOOTING.

CNN HAS REACHED OUT TO THE IDF, BUT THEY HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO THE SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS.

THE FAMILY'S TESTIMONY MATCHES EVIDENCE CNN SAW AT THE SCENE.

WE'VE SHOWN IMAGES OF THE BULLET CASINGS ON THE GROUND TO WEAPONS EXPERTS WHO CONFIRM THEY ARE ISRAELI-MANUFACTURED.

THE GRANDFATHER POINTS TO MULTIPLE BULLET HOLES IN WALLS, DOORS, AND FURNITURE ON DIFFERENT FLOORS OF THE BUILDING.

THE FAMILY SAYS ISRAELI TROOPS WERE IN THEIR HOME FOR AROUND 45 MINUTES.

ONE SOLDIER APPLIED A DRESSING TO A SHOULDER WOUND BEFORE THEY LEFT.

OUTSIDE, THE GRANDFATHER TRIES TO CALL AN AMBULANCE.

HE'S TOLD THEY CANNOT REACH HIM.

SO, THE BOYS ARE LOADED INTO A CAR AND RUSHED TO HOSPITAL.

WHERE YAMMEN IS PRONOUNCED DEAD.

GAZA HEALTH OFFICIALS SAY MORE THAN 270 PEOPLE WERE KILLED THAT DAY.

NO BREAKDOWN OF FIGHTERS VERSUS CIVILIANS.

BUT THIS HOSPITAL FOOTAGE SHOWS WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN EVERY CORNER.

ISRAEL SAYS THE DEATH TOLL IS FAR LOWER, BLAMING HAMAS FOR HIDING HOSTAGES WITHIN THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

ONE FAMILY'S STORY, ONE SMALL WINDOW INTO A DAY OF HELL FOR THE RESIDENTS OF NUSEIRAT.

>> PAULA HANCOCKS REPORTING THERE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CONDEMNED WHAT HE CALLED A VIOLENT ATAKE ON A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN CHILD IN TEXAS, WHERE A WOMAN HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH TRYING TO DROWN A 3-YEAR-OLD GIRL AT A NEIGHBORHOOD POOL.

THIS IS THE KIND OF RANK HAY TREAD HAS THAT HAS CAUSED TURBULENCE AROUND THE WORLD SINCE THE SAVAGE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th IN ISRAEL AND THE ENSUING WAR ON GAZA.

CAMPUS DEMONSTRATIONS AT AMERICAN COLLEGES GOT OUT OF HAND AFTER THE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT CALLED IN THE COPS, WHICH BRINGS US TO OUR NEXT GUESTS.

TWO COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS, ONE JEWISH, ONE PALESTINIAN, WHO ARE COTEACHING A COURSE ON RELIGION IN THE REGION.

IT'S PART OF THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL'S PROGRAM, WHERE CRUCIALLY, STUDENTS ARE LEARNING HOW TO DISAGREE WHILE ALSO SEEING EACH OTHER.

ARI GOLDMAN AND GREGORY KHALIL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S REALLY GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

AND I WANT TO KNOW, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF OVER THE PAST NINE MONTHS, WHAT IS IT THAT BROUGHT YOU TOGETHER, HOW DID YOU MEET, HOW DID YOU DECIDE, AND WHY, TO TEACH THIS PARTICULAR COURSE?

START WITH YOU, ARI.

>> SURE, SURE.

WELL, I'VE BEEN TEACHING THIS COURSE FOR DECADES, AND I JUST WANT TO GET DOWN THAT THE CORE PRINCIPLE OF THE COURSE IS EMPATHETIC OBJECTIVITY.

JOURNALISTS PRIZE OBJECTIVITY, RIGHT?

WE LOOK FOR FACTS, WE LOOK FOR MAPS, WE LOOK FOR DATA, WE LOOK FOR HISTORY.

WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT THAT TAKES US ONLY SO FAR.

WE NEED EMPATHY.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HEAR THE OTHER PERSON, AND IN PARTICULAR, WHEN IT COMES TO COVERING RELIGION.

IF I CAN GIVE A VERY QUICK EXAMPLE, THE -- IF YOU WALK INTO A CATHOLIC CHURCH AND PEOPLE ARE TAKING COMMUNION AND YOU SAY, THEY'RE HAVING BREAD AND WINE, OBJECTIVELY, YOU'VE TOLD THE TRUTH.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE HAVING.

HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE EMPATHETIC AND YOU TRY TO SEE IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, THEY'RE TAKING THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST.

SO, THE IDEA THAT OBJECTIVITY TAKES US ONLY SO FAR IS MY CORE PRINCIPLE IN TEACHING THIS COURSE.

WE ALL COME TO TEACH AND WE ALL COME TO -- INTO LIFE WITH OUR OWN PERSPECTIVES.

I'M AN AMERICAN JEW, I HAVE STRONG TIES TO ISRAEL, I HAVE MANY FAMILY MEMBERS IN ISRAEL, I LOVE ISRAEL, I SUPPORT ISRAEL.

AND I'VE BEEN TEACHING THIS COURSE FROM PRETTY MUCH MY PERSPECTIVE, AND THEN SIX YEARS AGO, I HAD A GUEST IN THE CLASS, GREG KHALIL, WHO MY -- A FRIEND HAD TOLD ME WAS A GOOD -- WOULD BE A GOOD GUEST TO TALK ABOUT CHRISTIANITY IN THE HOLY LAND.

AND I SAID, LET'S DO THIS TOGETHER, BECAUSE I WANT TO BE SURE THAT NOT ONLY MY PERSPECTIVE IS REFLECTED WITH MY STUDENTS, BUT YOURS IS, TOO, AND WE'VE HAD A VERY FRUITFUL PARTNERSHIP, I REALLY ENJOY WORKING WITH GREG, EVEN THOUGH WE DISAGREE ALL THE TIME.

>> LET ME ASK -- YEAH, I MEAN, IT REALLY DOES SOUND SO INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOU HAVE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, AS OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW.

YOU BOTH HAVE HUGE NUMBERS OF FAMILY, YOU IN ISRAEL, ARI.

YOU, I BELIEVE, IN THE WEST BANK, AND EVEN IN GAZA, GREG KHALIL.

TELL ME WHAT YOU TAKE FROM THIS COTEACHING COURSE.

DO YOU ALSO -- YOU HEAR AND SEE ARI, AND YOU ALSO, I GUESS, FEEL SEEN AND HEARD?

>> YEAH, THE SHORT ANSWER IS YES, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE REASON WHY I'M DOING THIS COURSE, WE DO HAVE A STRONG FRIENDSHIP THAT LASTS SIX YEARS, IS BECAUSE I THINK WHAT'S MISSING IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE IS AN ABILITY TO TALK ABOUT REALLY DIFFICULT ISSUES, IN PARTICULAR, ISRAELI-PALESTINE.

AS SOMEBODY WHO IS PALESTINIAN, AND I WAS BORN AND RAISED HERE, BUT I LIVED THERE, I HAVE A HUGE FAMILY THERE, SOME OF WHOM ARE EXPERIENCING ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS REALITIES RIGHT NOW.

PALESTINIAN PERSPECTIVE IS NEVER HEARD.

IT'S RARELY HEARD.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, ON YOUR LAST SEGMENT ABOUT THE HOSTAGE RESCUE, OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY FOR HOSTAGES WHO ARE RESCUED, BUT 270 PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS KILLED.

THERE'S A DIFFERENT VALUE OF LIFE HERE, BECAUSE IMAGINE IF THOSE HOSTAGES WERE HELD IN TEL AVIV, OR IN NEW YORK.

THERE'S THIS REALITY THAT FOR PALESTINIANS, IT'S, LIKE, WELL, YOU ARE HUMAN SHIELDS, THAT MEANS YOU'RE LEGITIMATE HUMAN TARGETS, AND THAT'S NOT FAIR, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

SO, MY OBJECTIVE IS NOT SIMPLY TO PLATFORM PALESTINIAN PERSPECTIVES, RATHER, IT'S SOMETHING LARGER THAN THAT.

I DON'T THINK MY STORY IS THE ONLY STORY.

ARI'S STORY ISN'T THE ONLY STORY.

IF WE WANT TO DEAL WITH COMPLEX ISSUES IN THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE MULTIPLICITY OF DEEP TRUTHS THAT EXIST AT THE SAME TIME AND BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THE ACTUAL FACTS, THE FACTS ON THE GROUND.

SO, IN TEACHING THIS COURSE TOGETHER, WE'RE HOPING TO ALLOW FOR A BETTER, MORE ROBUST DEBATE ABOUT REALITY AND NOT SLOGANS IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

>> SO, TO THAT END, DID YOUR -- I BELIEVE YOU HAVE A FRIENDSHIP, YOU'RE NOT JUST COTEACHING FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS.

SO MANY PEOPLE WERE SHAKEN, FAMILY FRIENDSHIPS BROKE UP, YOU KNOW, JUST -- EVERYBODY WAS IN THEIR OWN CORNERS AFTER OCTOBER 7th AND WHAT'S HAPPENED SINCE.

DID THAT EFFECT YOUR FRIENDSHIP?

>> I THINK IT MADE IT MUCH DEEPER, ACTUALLY.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE COMPONENTS OF OUR CLASS THAT'S SO CRITICAL IS, WE TAKE AN IMMERSIVE TRIP.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT A MULTIPLICITY OF PERSPECTIVES, IT'S NOT JUST ARI'S STORY, MY STORY, IT'S HOLDING IT ACCOUNTABLE TO A SHARED SET OF FACTS AND UNCOMFORTABLE EXPERIENCES.

SO, ARI AND I HAVE ACTUALLY GROWN QUITE A BIT TOGETHER OVER THE YEARS, IN BEING IN PLACES THAT HAVE MADE US AND OUR STUDENTS QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE.

SO, AFTER OCTOBER 7th, WE ALREADY HAD -- HE KNOWS WHERE I STAND ON A VARIETY OF ISSUE, WE'RE RADICALLY TRANSPARENT WITH EACH OTHER.

WE'RE NOT MEAN WHEN WE DISAGREE, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO SPEAK PROACTIVELY, WHAT WE THINK ABOUT PARTICULAR ISSUES.

AND SO, I THINK OUR CLASS AFTER OCTOBER 7th, STRANGELY, IN SOME WAY, WHILE I WAS BEING QUITE ACTIVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE, I MEAN, THIS HAS TO STOP NOW, I THINK IT PROVIDED A SAFE HAVEN, BOTH FOR US AND OUR STUDENTS.

>> I THINK THAT IS SO -- YES, ARI, GO AHEAD.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, YEAH, HOW ALSO THE STUDENTS SEE YOU AGREEING ON SOME THINGS, DISAGREEING ON OTHER THINGS, PARTICULARLY IN THIS INCREDIBLY HEIGHTENED ENVIRONMENT.

>> SO, THIS IDEA OF EMPATHETIC OBJECTIVITY, OF HAVING -- BEING -- USING YOUR JOURNALISTIC TOOLS, BUT HAVING EMPATHY, IS SOMETHING THAT I USE, AND I TEACH, AS A REPORTING TOOL.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND YOU TALK TO SOMEBODY WHO WHAT A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW, LISTEN TO THEM, TRY TO GET AND UNDERSTAND THE WORLD FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE.

I'LL GIVE AN EXAMPLE.

EVEN SOMEONE SAYING, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE SHOULD BE FREE, MAY SOUND INNOCUOUS TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT TO OTHER PEOPLE, IT IS OFFENSIVE, AND ANTI-SEMITIC.

SO, YOU MAY NOT THINK IT IS, BUT TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'VE TRIED TO DO.

AND IT STARTED AS A REPORTING TOOL, IN OTHER WORDS, THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO REPORT, BUT WE SOON REALIZED THAT IT WAS A HUMAN RELATIONS TOOL, THAT WE RELATE TO EACH OTHER AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, WHEN WE SAY, OKAY, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU?

AND ALL TOO OFTEN, PEOPLE SPEAK AND THEY WAIT AND THEN THEY SPEAK AGAIN.

WE'RE TRYING TO TEACH OUR STUDENTS TO SPEAK, LISTEN, AND THEN SPEAK AGAIN.

>> YEAH.

>> SO -- AND TAKING THEIR EXPERIENCE, AND TRYING TO REFLECT THEIR -- THEIR HUMANITY.

>> I LOVE THE FACT THAT THIS IS PART OF THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL, BECAUSE MANY JOURNALISTS IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH HOW TO DO THIS RIGHT.

SO, IT'S A VERY, VERY VALUABLE COURSE, I THINK, FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE JOURNALISTS.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE ON COLUMBIA, IT -- WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED ON CAMPUS WITH THE -- WITH THE PROTESTS.

YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE SLOGANS, ARI.

AND YOU SAY, GREG, THAT YOU'RE IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE UNIVERSITY HANDLED THE PROTESTS?

IN THE FULLNESS OF 20/20 HINDSIGHT, GREG, HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY?

DID YOU AGREE WITH WHAT HAPPENED?

>> NO.

I THINK THE UNIVERSITY MADE A NUMBER OF FAILURES AND IT'S ON A LONG AND GROWING LIST, BUT I THINK 20 YEARS FROM NOW, THE STORY ISN'T GOING TO BE ABOUT THE UNIVERSITY'S FAILURES, OR THE STUDENT PROTESTERS BREAKING A COUPLE RULES, EVEN TWO YEARS FROM NOW.

IT'S GOING TO GO BACK TO THE ATROCIOUS REALITIES ON THE GROUND IN GAZA.

THERE IS NO GOOD FUTURE FOR ANY ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REALITY FOR EVERY PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI.

AND WE ARE MOVING OVER THE BRINK ON THE GROUND THERE.

AND AS LONG AS THIS CONTINUES TO ESCALATE OUT OF CONTROL, THIS COULD GO -- THIS COULD HAVE LARGE REGIONAL IMPLICATIONS.

THINGS WON'T BE CALM ON OUR CAMPUS RIGHT NOW.

SO, I THINK THE STORY WITH THE PROTESTERS AND THE STUDENTS, I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION WILL LOOK VERY BAD IN HINDSIGHT.

THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH ENCAMPMENTS AND THE ADMINISTRATION FAILED THE UNIVERSITY COMMUNITY, I THINK, FOR MANY MONTHS, EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

THE STUDENTS WERE SAYING LONG BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, HEY, WE DON'T WANT OUR $14 BILLION TO -- ENDOWMENT TO BE INVESTED IN WHAT THEY AND MOST HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS INCLUDING MANY ISRAELI ORGANIZATIONS SEE AS APARTHEID.

WE DON'T WANT THEM PROFITING OFF WHAT MANY CALL AN ACTIVE GENOCIDE TODAY.

AND I THINK, SADLY, OR NOT SADLY, BUT -- THEY WILL BE -- THEY WILL BE LOOKED ON AS BEING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY, DESPITE THE VERY MANY PROBLEMS THAT WE SAW ON OUR CAMPUS AND SADLY WE'LL SEE AGAIN.

>> AND WHAT SORT OF VIEW DO YOU HAVE, ARI?

>> OKAY, WELL, I DISAGREE WITH THE USE OF THOSE WORDS, APARTHEID, GENOCIDE, I FEEL THAT THESE ARE NOT FAIR ACCUSATIONS TO MAKE AGAINST THE JEWISH STATE.

THE JEWISH STATE IS FAR FROM PERFECT, BUT IT'S ALSO NOT A GENOCIDAL STATE.

I FEEL THAT WE HAVE TO -- BUT I ALSO WANT TO GO TO THE -- TO THE CAMPUS BEFORE I TALK ABOUT THE FACTS ON THE GROUND.

AND THE CAMPUS -- I AM SYMPATHETIC TO THE ADMINISTRATION OF COLUMBIA, THE PRESIDENT BECAME PRESIDENT, I THINK, ON OCTOBER 4th AND SHE HAD TO FACE THIS ON OCTOBER 7th, SHE HAS ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM OF ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS, AND SHE'S DONE SOME GOOD THINGS, EVEN THOUGH SHE'S -- I HAVE TROUBLE WITH THE PRESENCE OF POLICE OFFICERS ON THE CAMPUS, ESPECIALLY INITIALLY.

>> YEAH.

>> LET ME ASK YOU -- >> BUT I'LL LET GREG PUSH BACK.

>> YEAH, I LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE DISAGREEING AND AGREEING, YOU KNOW, AGREEING TO DISAGREE, SO TO SPEAK, BUT I ALSO WANT TO KNOW, WHAT OTHER CONFLICTS DO YOU TEACH?

WHAT OTHER PLACES HAVE YOU TAKEN YOUR STUDENTS?

IS THERE A CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU CAN PUT WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, GREG?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, I THINK THESE ARE UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES.

I -- THIS YEAR, WE HAD TO PIVOT, WE COULD NOT GO ON -- TAKE THE STUDENTS ON THE TRIP TO ISRAEL-PALESTINE AS WE'D PLANNED.

WE STILL TAUGHT IT, BECAUSE OF OUR BACKGROUNDS, BUT WE ALSO TAUGHT IRELAND-NORTHERN IRELAND.

AND THE PSALM PRINCIPLES APPLY THERE, AND INTERESTINGLY, IN IRELAND, SO MUCH OF THIS CONFLICT, LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES, HAS BEEN IMPORTED INTO THE LOCAL CULTURE AND POLITICS.

SO, WE DIDN'T LEAVE ISRAEL AND PALESTINE FAR BEHIND.

I DO JUST WANT TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT, CHRISTIANE, IF I MIGHT, ON WHAT ARI SAID.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS AN ENVIRONMENT ON THE CAMPUS THAT WAS REALLY QUITE TOXIC FOR SOME TIME, AND I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION DID A POOR JOB AT FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT ALSO, THEY WEAPONIZED IT, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF ANTI-PALESTINIAN SPEECH AND BIGOTRY, BUT THERE WAS SOME IMPORTANT -- THERE WERE SOME IMPORTANT STORIES THAT WERE MISSED OUT THERE.

I REMEMBER ONE DAY, THE THIRD NIGHT OF PASSOVER, I WAS AT PULITZER HALL WHERE WE TEACH, THE ENCAMPMENT WAS RIGHT NEXT DOOR, I HEARD THE FAINT CALL OF THE MUSLIM CALL TO PRAYER FROM THE ENCAMPMENT, I WALKED OVER, I SAW ABOUT 20 STUDENTS STANDING IN A LARGE RECTANGLE HOLDING UP BED SHEETS, PROTECTING FELLOW MUSLIM STUDENTS FROM THE PRYING EYES OF CAMERAS, JUST AN HOUR AND A HALF LATER, IT WAS THE START OF PASSOVER, THE THIRD NIGHT, AND THERE WAS AN INTERFAITH MEAL HOSTED BY A NUMBER OF JEWISH STUDENTS, SIZABLE MINORITY THERE.

AND SO, SOMETHING IMPORTANT IS HAPPENING WITH THE YOUNG PEOPLE, AND I CAN EMPATHIZE WITH YOUR DISCOMFORT WITH THE CHARGED TERMS OF APARTHEID AND GENOCIDE, THOSE ARE VERY POWERFUL TERMS, BUT THE REALITY ON THE GROUND, WHERE ONE PEOPLE IS RULING OVER ANOTHER, WHAT I SAID IS THE OPINION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, AND SO, IT'S IMPORTANT IF WE ARE PRACTICING EMPATHETIC OBJECTIVITY, TO ROOT IT IN THAT REALITY, NOT JUST SORT OF OUR REACTIONS TO THE THIS TERMINOLOGY.

AND I THINK INCREASINGLY -- >> I HEAR YOU, I HEAR YOU, AND I HEAR YOU BOTH ON THIS, AND I -- I REALLY UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE THE EXPLANATIONS FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES.

BUT PARTICULARLY, ARI, AND I HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION.

ONE OF YOU SAID TO ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT TOO MANY STUDENTS WHO COME IN WITH TOO MANY EXCLAMATION POINTS AND SHOULD HAVE MORE QUESTION MARKS.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR STUDENTS COME IN WITH CERTAINTIES, OR WITH WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL CLICKDIVISM AND NOT ENOUGH CURIOSITY AND INTELLECTUAL INVESTIGATION.

ARI, WHAT ARE YOU SEEING?

ARE YOU ABLE TO COMBAT THAT, EVEN BY YOUR PARTNERSHIP?

>> I -- I HOPE SO.

THAT IS A PROBLEM, I THINK, IT'S ROOTED IN SOCIAL MEDIA.

YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE A POSITION ON EVERY ISSUE, AND THEN YOU GET STUCK IN THAT POSITION AND THEN YOU'RE AT A RALLY AND YOU'RE OWN ONE SIDE AND YOU DON'T LISTEN TO THE OTHER SIDE, SO -- I'M -- I'M VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF -- OF THE QUESTION MARK, AND I THINK PEOPLE IN -- IN COLLEGE, YOU KNOW, IN GRADUATE SCHOOL, SHOULD BE IN A QUESTIONING MODE, NOT IN SUCH CERTAINTY.

I WILL SAY, MYSELF, EVEN WATCHING THE VIDEO THAT YOU SHOWED EARLIER, I HAVE ALL THESE QUESTIONS, I HAVE A LOT OF -- I'M -- MY POSITION ISN'T CERTAIN ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES, EXCEPT THAT I LOVE ISRAEL AND I WANT ISRAEL TO SURVIVE.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF GUESTS ON WHO CAN DEBATE APARTHEID OR GENOCIDE OR ANYTHING ELSE -- WE'RE NOT HERE TO DO THAT, WE'RE HERE TO SAY THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US, FOR SOCIETY, AND ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, TO STOP AND LISTEN AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER.

>> YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR BOTH.

ARI GOLDMAN, GREG KHALIL, FOR BEING WITH US, AND FOR DOING THAT COURSE AT THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL AT COLUMBIA.

REALLY IMPORTANT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND, AS U.S.

VOTERS GEAR UP FOR THE ELECTION IN AN INCREASINGLY DIVIDED COUNTRY, THE MERGING OF FAITH AND POLITICAL IDENTITY OFTEN CONTRIBUTES TO FURTHER POLARIZATION.

IT'S SOMETHING OUR NEXT GUEST HAS EXPERIENCED.

DAVID FRENCH WAS RECENTLY DISMISSED FROM AN ENGAGEMENT FOR THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN AMERICA, AFTER FACING BACKLASH FOR HIS CRITICISM OF DONALD TRUMP.

HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO DISCUSS HIS LATEST ARTICLE, "THE DAY MY OLD CHURCH CANCELED ME WAS A VERY SAD DAY."

>> DAVID FRENCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> DAVID, JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T KNOW YOUR SORT OF FULL BIOGRAPHY, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU TO START BY HOW YOU CAME TO IDENTIFY AS A CONSERVATIVE, AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M A COLD WAR KID.

I WAS BORN IN '69, I CAME OF AGE, REALLY POLITICALLY, IN THE REAGAN ERA, AND I CAME OF AGE SORT OF AS THAT REAGAN REPUBLICAN COLD WAR CONSERVATIVE, MORE LIBERTARIAN LEANING IN MY OUTLOOK, VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN AMERICA'S GLOBAL ROLE, VERY IMMIGRANT-FRIENDLY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, THE -- REAGAN WAS FAMOUS, A LOT OF PEOPLE FORGET THIS, ABOUT HIS LEGACY, THAT HE WAS FAMOUS FOR WELCOMING IMMIGRANTS AND SHOWING THAT THE ATTRACTION AND APPEAL THAT AMERICA HAD TO PEOPLE ABROAD WAS A SYMBOL OF, FOR EXAMPLE, OUR SUPERIORITY TO THE SOVIET SYSTEM.

SO, I REALLY CAME UP AS A REAGAN REPUBLICAN.

THAT WOULD BE MY STORY.

AND I'M ALSO EVANGELICAL.

I WAS RAISED IN THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH.

I WAS AN EVANGELICAL REAGAN REPUBLICAN AND FIT WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CULTURALLY, AND WITHIN THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH, BASICALLY MY WHOLE ADULT LIFE, UNTIL JUNE OF 2015, WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME DOWN THE ESCALATOR, WHO SIGNALED A BREAK FROM ALL KINDS OF REPUBLICAN TRADITIONS THAT I HAD APPRECIATED AND RESPECTED, NOT MERELY A BREAK WITH REAGAN IDEOLOGY, BUT ALSO A BREAK WITH REAGAN'S CHARACTER, IN ANY EMPHASIS ON PERSONAL CHARACTER AT ALL.

>> DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN IT IS THAT YOU STARTED TO SEE NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP AS A CANDIDATE, A FIGURE, BUSY EFFECT ON THE PARTY, THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, ON THE WHOLE, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAW THAT?

>> OH, I CAN GET IT DOWN TO THE MONTH.

SEPTEMBER OF 2015 IS WHEN I BEGAN TO SEE -- AND THERE WAS A REPUBLICAN DEBATE AT THAT TIME IN WHICH NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP, BUT ALSO SOME OF HIS FANS ONLINE, WERE ECHOING WHITE NATIONALIST ALT-RIGHT TALKING POINTS.

AND SO, I REMEMBER, I WAS WRITING AT THE TIME FOR "NATIONAL REVIEW" AND I REMEMBER WRITING JUST A VERY SHORT POST, WHERE I WAS CONDEMNING THESE WHITE NATIONALIST TALKING POINTS.

I WAS CONDEMNING THEIR PRESENCE AND SAYING THEY HAVE NOTHING -- THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN THE CONSERVATISM THAT I KNOW AND LOVE.

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WAS, WE RECEIVED A HURRICANE, JUST A HURRICANE OF ONLINE HARASSMENT DIRECTED AT ME, BUT FAR WORSE THAN THAT, DIRECTED AT MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER, WHO, AT THE TIME, WAS 7 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS ADOPTED FROM ETHIOPIA.

AND THE RACIST ATTACKS ON HER WERE, A, DEEPLY DISTURBING, AND B, TERRIFYING IN SOME WAYS.

THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT, SOME PEOPLE PUT PICTURES OF MURDERED BLACK AMERICANS IN THE COMMENT SECTION OF MY WIFE'S BLOG, SHE WAS A WRITER FOR A RELIGIOUS WEBSITE AT THE TIME.

CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY THREATENING.

PHOTOSHOPPING PICTURE OFFICE MY DAUGHTER INTO GAS CHAMBERS ONLINE.

>> YEAH.

>> HORRIBLE STUFF, HORRIBLE STUFF.

AND SO, IT WAS DISTURBING, IT WAS TERRIFYING, AND WE TURNED, AS WE ALWAYS HAD, IN OUR HISTORY AND OUR LIVES, BACK TO OUR CHURCH COMMUNITY.

FOR SUPPORT AND COMFORT.

AND TO BE SURE, THERE WERE PASTORS WHO SUPPORTED US, THERE WERE CLOSE FRIENDS WHO SUPPORTED US.

BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN, FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE FACT THAT I HAD TURNED AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AND HAD CRITICIZED DONALD TRUMP WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR FOR THEM, AND THEY TURNED ON US IN OUR OWN CHURCH.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT BEGAN IN 2015 AND JUST KEPT CONTINUING.

>> FOR SOME PEOPLE, POLITICS IS LIKE SPORTS.

YOU KNOW, THEY GO THERE TO YELL AT PEOPLE, RIGHT?

THEY GO THERE TO BOO AT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOVE IT, YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S STUPID, EH, BUT -- CHURCH IS DIFFERENT.

SO, I'M JUST THINKING, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I WILL JUST SPEAK PERSONALLY, I'LL SAY, I UNDERESTIMATED TWO THINGS WHEN I WAS THINKING THROUGH THE STATE OF REPUBLICAN POLITICS IN 2015 AND E VAN JELL KA POLITICS SPECIFICALLY IN 2015 AND 2016.

NUMBER ONE, I UNDERESTIMATED THE ANTIPATHY THAT EXISTED AGAINST DEMOCRAT.

HOW MUCH THERE WAS THIS RAW HATRED AND/OR FEAR OF DEMOCRATS ON THE PART OF SO MANY CHRISTIAN REPUBLICANS.

I -- EVEN THOUGH I WAS A REPUBLICAN -- I WAS A REPUBLICAN DELEGATE TO THE 2012 CONVENTION, A MITT ROMNEY DELEGATE.

I ALWAYS HAD CLOSE FRIENDS WHO WERE DEMOCRATS.

I NEVER SAW POLITICS AS THAT DEAL BREAKER ON MATTERS OF FAITH AND FRIENDSHIP.

I UNDERESTIMATED HOW MANY HAD REAL, RAW ANTIPATHY FOR DEMOCRATS.

AND HOW FUNDAMENTALIST THEY HAD BECOME.

AND BY THAT, I MEAN, THERE'S THIS ZONE OF ABSOLUTE RELIGIOUS CERTAINTY THEY HAD EXTENDED INTO POLITICS.

SO, IF YOU WERE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN STANDARD BEARER, THAT WAS NOT SEEN AS A MISTAKE, THAT WAS SEEN AS A SIGN OF DEPARTING FROM THE CHRISTIAN FAITH ITSELF.

AND THAT BLINDSIDED ME.

THAT TOOK ME TOTALLY BY SURPRISE, SO, IT'S THE COMBINATION OF ANTIPATHY AND RISING FUNDAMENTALISM THAT TIES THE POLITICS OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY TO THE FAITH ITSELF SO CLOSELY THAT I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING, AND THAT'S WHAT BLINDSIDED ME, AND BOTH OF THOSE TRENDS HAVE ONLY GOTTEN WORSE IN THE ENSUING, YOU KNOW, EIGHT, NINE YEARS.

>> SO, THEN, YOU GO AND YOU'RE SCHEDULED TO SPEAK AT A -- AN EVEN BEING SPONSORED BY YOUR CHURCH, WHICH YOU HAVE LOVED, AND HAS LOVED YOU -- >> YEAH.

>> AND YOUR FAMILY.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SO, WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT, MY WIFE AND I HAD BEEN MEMBERS OF A CHURCH CALLED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF AMERICA FOR A LONG TIME, MORE THAN 15 YEARS, AND IT HAD BECOME -- UNFORTUNATELY, OVER THE COURSE OF TIGHT OR NINE YEARS OF THE TRUMP ERA, IT HAD BECOME NOT HOSPITABLE TO US.

NOW, AGAIN, NOT EVERYBODY.

OUR PASTORS WERE WITH US, CLOSE FRIENDS WERE WITH US, BUT WE KEPT HAVING DEEPLY DISTURBING CONFRONTATIONS AT CHURCH.

PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WOULD MAKE RACIST REMARKS, PEOPLE -- AN ELDER SAID TO ME ABOUT MY OWN WIFE, KEEP -- CAN'T YOU KEEP YOUR WIFE UNDER CONTROL ABOUT HER OPPOSITION TO TRUMP WHEN SHE WAS KIND OF -- WHEN THEY WERE HAVING A POST-CHURCH DISCUSSION, I WAS CONFRONTED AT COMMUNION TABLE BY SOMEBODY WHO WAS A TRUMP SUPPORTER, AND THIS IS JUST A VERY, VERY PARTIAL LIST OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

NOW, AGAIN, WHEN I SAY MY PASTORS KEPT SUPPORTING ME, THE CHURCH ACTUALLY TOOK DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST THIS PERSON TO PREVENT THEM -- TO TRY TO PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THIS EVER AGAIN, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IS, PEOPLE JUST KEPT CONFRONTING US.

AND EVEN THE MOST WELL-MEANING PASTORS COULD NOT SHIELD US FROM THE SENSE THAT IF WE'RE ARRIVING AT CHURCH, THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE, WHEN WE GET THERE, THAT SOMEBODY'S GOING TO CONFRONT ME OR MY WIFE OR ONE OF MY KIDS OVER DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO WE BEGAN ATTENDING A MULTIETHNIC CHURCH IN NASHVILLE THAT HAS NO TRACE OF THAT KIND OF MAGA CHRISTIANITY IN IT, BUT MY PRIOR DENOMINATION DID REACH OUT TO ME AND INVITE ME TO COME SPEAK AT A PANEL AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE DENOMINATION.

AND THE REASON WHY THEY REACHED OUT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE I HAD CONFRONTED SO MANY OPPONENTS, AND THERE HAD BEEN SO MANY PEOPLE AND THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION WAS FOR ME TO HELP PEOPLE NAVIGATE POLARIZED TIMES.

I'VE GOTTEN CRITICISM FROM LEFT AND RIGHT, AND WAS GOING TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ALWAYS GET CRITICISM FROM BOTH SIDES, ABOUT HOW TO NAVIGATE THAT.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT THEN, AS SOON AS MY NAME WAS ANNOUNCED, THE REALLY HARD CORE MAGA WING OF THE DENOMINATION JUST ROSE IN OUTRAGE.

THEY PRINTED ARTICLES THAT WERE DEEPLY MISLEADING, YOU KNOW, TWEETED VICIOUS THINGS ABOUT ME, CALLING ME NAMES.

SOMEBODY EVEN WROTE A SILLY PARODY SONG INSULTING ME.

AND SO, THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW, THE DENOMINATION STARTS TO GET COLD FEET AND DECIDES TO CANCEL THE PANEL, AND THEN THEY ISSUE A STATEMENT, THROWING ME UNDER THE BUS, WHERE I -- AND OFFICIAL BASICALLY SAYS, WELL, HAD I KNOWN ABOUT DAVID FRENCH'S PRIOR WRITINGS, OR THE WAY PEOPLE HAD INTERPRETED HIM, THEN THE -- THE CLEAR IMPLICATION IS HE WAS NEVER HAVE ISSUED THE INVITATION.

BUT HAD HE KNOWN?

IT WAS NOT LIKE I KEPT MY OPINIONS UNDER A BUSHEL.

>> THEY SAID THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ABOUT THE SEMINAR AND ITS TOPIC HAVE BEEN SO SIGNIFICANT THAT IT SEEMS WISEST FOR THE PEACE AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH NOT TO PROCEED IN THIS WAY.

HOW DO YOU -- WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT -- LET'S JUST BE REALLY CLEAR, WHEN THEY TALKED ABOUT PEACE AND UNITY.

PEOPLE GOT VERY ANGRY AND MADE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST ME, THEY HAD PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST MY WIFE, THEY PUBLISHED MISLEADING AND SOMETIMES OUTRIGHT FALSE THINGS ABOUT THE THINGS THAT I'VE WRITTEN AND THAT I'VE SAID.

THEY ENGAGED IN JUST THE MOST GROSS PERSONAL INSULTS.

AND THEN THEY TURNED AROUND, THE DENOMINATION TURNS AROUND AND SAYS, WELL, FOR PEACE AND FOR UNITY, WE HAVE TO YIELD TO THOSE PEOPLE AND EXCLUDE ME.

AND SO, THE PRICE OF PEACE, WHAT PEACE WAS WAS ACTUALLY CAPITULATION TO THE LOUDEST AND ANGRIEST VOICES.

NOT TO THE MAJORITY OF THE DENOMINATION.

CERTAINLY NOT TO THE MAJORITY OF THE DENOMINATION.

BUT TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE ANGRIEST FACTION.

AND THAT'S NOT PEACE.

THAT'S CAPITULATION.

THAT'S EXCLUSION.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY SO VERY MANY PEOPLE RIGHT NOW DON'T EVEN FEEL WELCOME IN MANY OF THE CHURCHES THAT THEY GREW UP IN.

>> YOU THINK THIS IS A MINORITY OF CHURCH GOERS WHO HAVE BEEN ENGAGING IN THIS CONDUCT?

>> YEAH, I DO BELIEVE STRONGLY IT'S A MINORITY OF CHURCHGOERS.

THE MAJORITY ARE NOT -- TO BE HONEST, ARE NOT THAT POLITICALLY ENGAGED.

MOST PEOPLE, POLITICS IS VERY DOWNSTREAM FROM THE -- THE DAILY RHYTHM OF THEIR LIVES.

BUT FOR THE SMALL MINORITY, FOR WHOM POLITICS REALLY IS AN EXTENSION OF THEIR FAITH, THEY HAVE REALLY ADOPTED TRUMP WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY ZEAL, AND WHAT THEY'VE BEEN VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE AT IS TELLING -- IS USING PERSONAL INSULTS TO WARN THE MAJORITY AWAY FROM DOES CENTERS.

SO, RATHER THAN DEALING WITH MY ARGUMENTS, THEY'LL CALL ME A HERETIC, THEY'LL SAY I'M A WOLF, THAT I'M DEMONIC.

AND SO, THEN, WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING, I READ THIS FROM DAVID FRENCH, THEY'LL SAY, OH, HE'S A HERETIC.

THE IMMEDIATE RECOIL IS, I DON'T WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM A HERETIC.

SO, THE PASSIVITY OF THE MAJORITY IS REALLY ENABLING THAT MINORITY.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO ANY ADDITIONAL WORK TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE ACCUSATION IS TRUE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS MOST DISPIRITING, AGAIN, ABOUT THIS CONGRESS LAKE FROM THE PCA.

THERE WASURRICANE OF MISLEADING INFORMATION, AND THE GOOD PEOPLE, AND THE QUOTE UNQUOTE GOOD PEOPLE, DID NOTHING TO DETERMINE THE VERACITY OF IT ALL, OR WOULDN'T EVEN REALLY EVALUATE THE MOALITY IN THE WAY PEOPLE ATTACKED US.

THEY JUST WANTED THE PAIN TO THEY WANTED THE CONTROVERSY TO STOP.

AND SO, THEY MEANT CAPITULATION.

AND THIS IS A PATTERN THAT IS REPEATING ITSELF IN INSTITUTION AFTER INSTITUTION WITHIN AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY.

>> YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, HOW COULD YOU HAVE MISSED THAT STRAIN OF INTOLERANCE BEFORE?

IS IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T DIRECTED AT YOU OR ANYBODY WHO WAS IMPORTANT TO YOU AND THEREFORE YOU MISSED IT?

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK THERE'S A PART OF YOU THAT THINKS, WELL, DIDN'T COME OUT OF NOWHERE.

>> WELL, RIGHT.

>> YOU JUST MISSED IT?

>> YOU'RE CORRECT.

FIRST, THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF THIS THAT IS JUST MEA CULPA.

THERE'S STUFF THAT I SHOULD HAVE SEEN THAT I DIDN'T SEE.

AND I HAVE BEEN FEELING GUILT ABOUT THAT FOR YEARS, QUITE FRANKLY.

SO, SOME OF THAT IS ABSOLUTE MEA CULPA.

PART OF IT IS A VERY HUMAN REACTION, WHEN YOU'RE VERY HAPPY IN A PLACE AND IT SEEMS LOVING AND WARM AND EMBRACING TO YOU, IT DOESN'T -- YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY LOOKING FOR REASONS NOT TO LIKE IT.

YOU'RE NOT OUT THERE SEARCHING FOR ALL THE REASONS WHY THIS IS ACTUALLY BAD, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

>> AND THEN THINGS TURN BAD, ALL OF A SUDDEN, OFTEN, THE SCALES FALL FROM YOUR EYES.

IT'S VERY HUMAN.

IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS RIGHT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BRNGS BUT THAT'S THE WAY THAT I WAS.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER WRITER WHO HAS WRITTEN FOR "USA TODAY," HE'S WRITTEN FOR "THE POST," HIS NAME IS STEPHEN PETRO.

A LOT OF HIS PUBLIC WORK HAS BEEN ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, RIGHT?

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE WROTE WHEN TRUMP WAS FIRST ELECTED, WHICH IS, IT'S NOT THAT I THINK EVERYBODY THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP IS THAT A RACIST, THAT HIS RACISM DOESN'T BOTHER THEM.

OKAY?

>> OR THEY'RE IN DENIAL ABOUT IT.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY IN DENIAL ABOUT IT.

SO, WHAT HAS HAPPENED, YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SORT OF CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE THAT ANY ACCUSATION OF RACISM IS FALSE -- >> RIGHT.

>> AND SO, THEY WILL DENY, AND OFTEN, BECAUSE THEIR CONSUMPTION OF MEDIA IS ENTIRELY RIGHT WING MEDIA, ENTIRELY, THEY DON'T HEAR, KNOW ABOUT SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS SAID.

AND SO, THEY LIVE IN DENIAL, THEY'RE OFTEN PROTECTED BY THEIR OWN TRUSTED MEDIA FIGURES FROM THE TRUTH ABOUT TRUMP, SO THEY -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A MOMENT IN MY CHURCH THAT'S VERY INDICATIVE, WHEN A WOMAN, AN OLDER WOMAN IN THE CHURCH CAME UP TO ME AND, WITH SINCERITY AND KINDNESS SAID, DAVID, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU OPPOSE OUR PRESIDENT.

CAN YOU TELL ME, AND THIS IS DURING TRUMP'S TERM.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO GIVE THE WHOLE BRIEF AGAINST TRUMP, AND I JUST TRIED TO VERY NICELY SAY, I JUST WISH HE LIED LESS.

AND THAT WAS JUST MY FIRST ANSWER, AND SHE LOOKS AT ME AND WITH 100% SINCERITY SAYS, YOU MEAN DONALD TRUMP LIES?

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SORT OF UNDERSTAND, IF YOU'RE OUTSIDE OF MAGA COUNTRY, HOW MUCH THE VISION OF DONALD TRUMP AS A HUMAN BEING THAT HAS BEEN CREATED WITHIN THAT MAGA BUBBLE IS SO CONTRARY TO FACT.

IT IS SO CONTRARY TO REALITY.

THEY SEE HIM AS SORT OF A HEROIC AND VIRT WAS FIGURE IN A WAY THAT THE REST OF AMERICA IS MYSTIFIED BY.

JUST MYSTIFIED.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO PREDICT AND SAY, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS GOES?

LIKE, IF YOU AND I WERE -- ARE TO TALK AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW, FIVE YEARS OR SO, WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATION DO YOU THINK WE'LL BE HAVING?

>> YOU KNOW, TO BE QUITE FRANK, I THINK A LOT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS THIS NOVEMBER.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT IF TRUMP WINS IN 2024, THE ZEAL OF EVANGELICAL SUPPORT FOR HIM WILL BE EVEN GREATER THAN ANYTHING WE'VE SEEN, BECAUSE IT WILL BE SEEN AS DIVINE INTERVENTION, AS A MIRACLE THAT THIS MAN SUBJECT TO ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS AND NOW A CONVICTION AND A SEXUAL ABUSE FINDING AND ALL THE FRAUD FINDINGS AND ALL OF THIS THAT IT WILL BE INTERPRETED THAT THE WORLD CAME AGAINST HIM, BUT GOD PROTECTED HIM AND MADE HIM PREVAIL.

THAT WILL BE A NARRATIVE THAT WILL LOCK INTO A BIG CHUNK OF THE CHURCH THAT WILL LEAD TO ZEAL THAT I THINK IS ON A SCALE THAT'S EVEN GREATER THAN WE'VE SEEN, AND WILL ALSO CREATE, I THINK, A MODEL GOING FORWARD.

THIS IS HOW YOU ONE ELECTIONS, WITH TRUMP-LIKE FIGURES.

IF TRUMP LOSES, I'M NOT SO SURE THAT WE'LL HAVE A FEVER BREAK MOMENT, SO MUCH AS A FEVER FADE MOMENT.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FORGET THAT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS STILL REALLY LIKED RICHARD NIXON WHEN HE WAS FORCED OUT IN 1974.

THEY DID.

AND THEN WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS, THERE WAS SORT OF THIS FADE, NOT SO MUCH A FEVER BREAK, BUT OFTEN A FADE.

AND SO, I THINK YOU WOULD SEE MORE OF A FADE, BUT THAT MAGA POPULOUS REACTION AIR ELEMENT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

IT'S PERPETUATED NOT JUST BY DONALD TRUMP, BUT PEOPLE WITH GIANT SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, 5 MILLION, 6 MILLION FOLLOWERS ARE NOT JUST GOING TO DISAPPEAR INTO THE ETHER IF TRUMP LOSES.

THIS IS A MOVEMENT THAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE RELEVANT AND DANGEROUS IN MANY WAYS IN AMERICAN POLITICS FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.

BUT NOTHING COMPARED TO THE DANGER OF IF TRUMP WINS AGAIN IN 2024.

>> DAVID FRENCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM IN AFGHANISTAN COMES IN THE SHAPE OF MISOGYNY.

WOMEN AND GIRLS THERE LOVE CRICKET, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM PLAYING ANY SPORTS SINCE THE TALIBAN SEIZED BACK POWER FROM THE UNITED STATES IN 2021.

BUT AFGHANISTAN'S MEN'S CRICKET TEAM HAS BROUGHT JOY TO A BELEAGUERED NATION, REACHING THE WORLD CUP SEMIFINALS FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER.

BEATING BANGLADESH AND KNOCKING OUT THE FAVORITES, AUSTRALIA, IN THE PROCESS.

THEY PICKED UP THE GAME AMID A WAR, AND NOW, THEY HAVE MADE HISTORY PLAYING IT.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.