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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> THE INTELLECTUAL EXTRAORDINARE WHOSE BOOKS HAVE SOLD IN THE MILLIONS, PUBLIC THINKER MALCOLM GLADWELL ON HIS IDEAS AND THE NEED TO CHALLENGE OUR OWN.
> THEN -- ♪ I'M SO AMERICAN ♪
IT'S ONE OF LEONARD COHEN'S MOST ICONIC SONGS BUT WHO WAS MARY ANN?
AWARD WINNING FILM MAKER NICK BROOMFIELD EXPLORES THE TROUBLED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MUSICIAN AND HIS MUSE.
> PLUS THE MIDWESTERN PIONEERS WHO HELPED SHAPE THE IDEALS OF THE NATION.
DAVID McCULLOUGH TALKS TO WALTER IVANSON.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL RACE IS OFFICIALLY IN FULL SWING WITH DEMOCRATS IN BACK TO BACK TV DEBATES FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.
SO FAR THEY HAVE FOCUSSED LESS ON INSULTING EACH OTHER AND MORE ON ACTUALLY ANSWERING TOUGH QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THEY PLAN TO REFORM THINGS LIKE CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND EDUCATION.
THAT IS RIGHT IN THE WHEEL HOUSE OF MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, MALCOLM GLADWELL WHO HAS BEEN CALLED ONE OF THE LEADING THINKERS OF OUR TIMES.
HIS BOOKS ARE BEST-SELLERS AND TACKLE THE BIG TICKET ISSUES FACING US ALL.
IT WAS HIS BOOK 'THE TIPPING POINT' ABOUT HOW SMALL IDEAS CAN LEAD TO BIG SHIFTS IN HUMAN BEHAVIOR THAT FIRST PROPELLED HIM INTO THE PUBLIC EYE IN 2000.
NOW HE'S TURNING HIS ATTENTION TO WHAT HE CALLS THE UNDERREPORTED AND MISUNDERSTOOD EVENTS THAT SHAPED OUR SOCIETY IN 'REVISIONIST HISTORY'. A THEME OF HIS WORK IS ABOUT GETTING US TO THINK AGAIN ABOUT OUR OWN LONG-HELD BELIEFS.
HE JOINED ME FROM NEW YORK TO TALK ABOUT WHY HE THINKS FIXING INEQUALITY IN EDUCATION SHOULD BE A TOP PRIORITY FOR TODAY'S WORLD LEADERS.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
HAPPY TO BE HERE.
I WANT TO TALK FIRST ABOUT YOUR PODCAST WHICH HAS NOW BECOME PERHAPS AS FAMOUS AND LISTENED TO AS YOUR BOOKS WERE READ.
'REVISIONIST HISTORY'. I WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU TOOK THAT THEME AND THAT STRAND.
ESSENTIALLY AS YOU SAY TO RE-EXAMINE THINGS OVERLOOKED OR MISUNDERSTOOD.
YEAH.
WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS ATTRACTED BY THE IDEA THAT THAT WORD IS TYPICALLY USED IN A DEROGATORY FASHION.
RIGHT?
YOU KNOW, YOU DISMISS SOMETHING AS HISTORY.
I LOVE REHABILITATING PHRASES AND SUGGESTING THAT SOMETIMES REVISITING THINGS CAN LEAD TO GOOD OUTCOMES OR AT LEAST INTERESTING OUTCOMES.
BUT MOSTLY WHAT THAT PODCAST IS ABOUT, IT'S -- YOU WANT A BROAD ENOUGH RUBRIC TO EXAMINE ANYTHING YOU WANT, AND I EACH SEASON I BROADEN THE DEFINITION OF WHATEVER I WANT.
YOU TAKE ON STANDARDIZED TESTING.
THAT MIGHT SOUND WHIMSICAL, BUT IT'S ABOUT EDUCATION WHICH IS YOUR PASSION.
AND YOU COME AT IT FROM A NONAMERICAN PERSPECTIVE.
YOU'RE FAMOUSLY CANADIAN AND YOU HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE.
I LOVE THAT PHRASE, FAMOUSLY CANADIAN.
IN A REVISIONIST EPISODE, CANADA IS NOW THE SORT OF THE NEW SENSIBLE OR IN TERMS OF WHAT IT CAN TELL OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.
PARTICULARLY YOUR NEIGHBOR TO THE SOUTH.
ON EDUCATION STANDARDIZED QUESTIONING, WHAT GIVES?
I DO TWO EPISODES.
THE FIRST TWO EPISODES CONCERN THE L SAT.
I'M USING THAT AS A PROXY FOR ALL STANDARDIZED TESTING.
I HAVE A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION WHICH IS WHY DO THEY PLACE SUCH STRICT TIME LIMITS ON THE TEST?
WHAT IS GAINED BY MAKING SOMEONE HURRY THROUGH THOSE TESTS?
WHY AM I MORE INTERESTED IN THE RESULTS OF A STANDARDIZED TEST WHERE I MAKE THE STUDENT RUSH THROUGH ALL THE QUESTIONS THAN I WOULD BE IN THE RESULT IF I GAVE THE STUDENT THE TIME NECESSARY TO THINK DEEPLY ABOUT HOW TO ANSWER THEM APPROPRIATELY?
RIGHT?
SO WE HAVE -- THOSE TESTS ARE CONSTRUCTED SO YOU DO NOT -- SO YOU ARE UNDER CONSTANT PART-TIME PRESSURE.
THAT'S THE THEORY BEHIND THE TIME PRESSURE?
WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?
I WENT TO THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE TEST.
IT TURNED OUT THEY DON'T HAVE A TERRIBLY GOOD EXPLANATION FOR WHY THEY SPEED THEM UP.
THEN I TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO THINK ABOUT TESTS CONCEPTUALLY.
THEY SAY WHEN YOU PLACE A STRICT TIME LIMIT ON THE S.A.T. OR ANY OF THESE TESTS, YOU CHANGE THE RESULT.
SO YOU PRIVILEGE A CERTAIN KIND OF THINKER OVER ANOTHER KIND OF THINKER.
AND IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE PRIVILEGING ARE SMARTER OR MORE CAPABLE THAN THOSE WHO YOU ARE BIASSING THE TEST AGAINST.
YOU'RE SIMPLY ARBITRARILY CHOOSING ONE GROUP OTHER ANOTHER.
I CALL THEM HARES AND TORTOISES.
THE PERSON WHO IS THOUGHTFUL AND METICULOUS AND THOUGHTFUL AND LIKES TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T MAKE MISTAKES AND IS RELUCTANT TO GUESS, THAT KIND OF PERSON -- WE ALL KNOW THAT KIND OF PERSON, AND THEY CAN MAKE -- I HAVE A LITTLE PODCAST COMPANY NOW.
I LOOK FOR THAT KIND OF -- THAT'S THE PERSON I WANT TO HIRE.
RIGHT?
A THOUGHTFUL, CAREFUL, METHODICAL PERSON.
THAT PERSON IS DISADVANTAGED BY THE WAY STANDARDIZED TESTS ARE SET UP.
THE PERSON WHO IS ADVANTAGED IS THE HARE.
EARS BACK, RACING THROUGH, HAPPILY GUESSING, READS QUICKLY.
DOESN'T NEED TO DIGEST SOMETHING AND THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE THEY RESPOND.
THAT PERSON EXCELS AT STANDARDIZED TESTS.
WHY ARE WE MORE INTERESTED IN THE HARE THAN THE TORTOISE?
IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.
OKAY.
BUT LET'S FACE IT.
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO SEE WHETHER THERE'S A CONSEQUENCE WHETHER IT'S IN THE QUALITY OF THE LAWYER AFTER A RUSHED L-SAT OR THE QUALITY OF THE PROFESSIONALS WHO EMERGE FROM THIS VERY, VERY TIME CONSTRAINED TESTING?
YES.
SO WE GET INTO THIS IN THE SECOND EPISODE.
IT TURNS OUT THERE IS LITTLE EVIDENCE THAT YOUR SCORE IN THE L-SAT IS A USEFUL PREDICTOR AS YOUR ABILITY AS A LAWYER.
IN FACT, THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THERE -- I TALKED TO SOMEONE WHO SORT OF I GOT DATA ANALYTICS FOR LAW FIRMS.
SUCH A THING EXISTS.
HE BASICALLY SAID THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR L-SAT AND THE QUALITY OF LAW SCHOOL YOU ATTENDED AND YOUR ABILITY AS A LAWYER IS ESSENTIALLY ZERO.
SO THIS IS A USELESS EXERCISE, AND WE DO IT MERELY BECAUSE WE'VE DONE IT FOR DECADES AND WE CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO RE-EXAMINE OUR METHODOLOGY.
I THINK THIS IS A POWERFUL METAPHOR FOR WHAT AILS THE AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.
WE ARE ATTACHED TO A SERIES OF RITUALS THAT HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION.
AND WE HAVEN'T -- WE'RE JUST -- WE DON'T REVISIT THEM.
WHY?
I DON'T KNOW.
BECAUSE WE'RE STUCK IN THE MUD, BECAUSE WE'RE LAZY.
BECAUSE WE THINK WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT THAT WAY, THAT'S THE WAY WE SHOULD DO IT.
IT'S BAFFLING TO ME.
WHAT WOULD THE ALTERNATIVE BE TO A STANDARDIZED TIMED L-SAT?
I DON'T OBJECT TO A TIME LIMIT, BUT I OBJECT TO A TIME LIMIT THAT MAKES PEOPLE RUSH.
IMAGINE IF YOU'RE AN ENGLISH TEACHER AND YOU WANT YOUR STUDENTS TO WRITE AN ESSAY ON 'MOBY DICK'. YOU CAN DO IT AND SAY YOU HAVE 24 HOURS TO READ 'MOBY DICK'. OR YOU COULD SAY READ IT, UNDERSTAND, THINK ABOUT IT, AND WRITE AN ESSAY.
WHO DOES THE FIRST?
IF YOU ASKED AN ENGLISH PROFESSOR, THEY WOULD SAY THAT'S MADNESS.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE IT'S MADNESS.
IT'S LIKE MAKING THEM -- I HEARD YOU SAY IT'S LIKE YOU WOULDN'T ASK PEOPLE TO READ 'WAR AND PEACE' IN 24 HOURS.
NO.
WHO DOES THIS?
LET'S MOVE ONTO AN ISSUE OF EDUCATION THAT'S PROMINENT AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVE STEVE SWHARTMAN OF BLACK STONE WHO HAS FAMOUSLY DONATED 150 MILLION POUNDS TO A SPECIFIC PURPOSE AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY TO THE STUDY OF HUMANITIES AND THAT EXPANDS HE SAYS TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TECHNOLOGY WILL RULE OUR WORLD SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID THIS IS A VANITY PROJECT.
HE SAID WHY DID HE CHOOSE OXFORD NEVER HAVING GONE THERE.
HE WAS 16 AND SAW WHAT A BEAUTIFUL PLACE IT WAS AND THAT INSPIRED HIM.
THAT'S A GOOD REASON.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING MONEY TO A PROMINENT SEAT OF EDUCATION AND LEARNING THAT HAS A REPUTATION FOR WHEN IT CAN DEVELOPING SOME OF THE MOST FAR-REACHING EFFECTS ON PUBLIC SECTOR AND PUBLIC SOCIETY?
WELL, THEY ALREADY HAVE AT LO OF OH -- A LOT OF MONEY.
I MEAN, IF I GO OUT TO DINNER WITH A BILLIONAIRE, I DON'T PICK UP THE CHECK, EVEN THOUGH THAT'S NICE.
WHY?
BECAUSE THAT PERSON HAS A LOT OF MONEY.
IF AI IS SO CRUCIAL TO THE MISSION OF EDUCATION AT OXFORD, THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY DONE IT.
RIGHT?
WHY?
BECAUSE THEY HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES, AND THEY CAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT.
THE WHOLE POINT OF GIVING IS YOU GIVE MONEY TO AN INSTITUTION THAT WITHOUT YOUR GIFT ABSENT YOUR GIFT, WOULD BE UNABLE TO DO THAT TRULY IMPORTANT THING.
RIGHT?
SO IF I WERE TO GO TO A COMMUNITY COLLEGE SOMEWHERE IN -- ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, OR IF I WERE TO GO TO SOME COLLEGE WITH NO MONEY IN THE BANK AND I WOULD GIVE THEM $150 MILLION AND SAY I SEE YOU DON'T HAVE BOOKS IN YOUR LIBRARY, OR I SEE YOU DON'T HAVE AN ENGINEERING SCHOOL, IT WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU HAD AN ENGINEERING SCHOOL, OR I SEE YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY YOUR TEACHERS ADEQUATELY.
HERE'S MONEY.
THAT, THERE'S A RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT.
THE RETURN ON ANY INVESTMENT THAT IS MADE IN TO HARVARD UNIVERSITY OR OXFORD UNIVERSITY IS ZERO.
RIGHT?
WHAT -- IF YOU GIVE MONEY -- STEVE SCHWARTZMAN ALSO LOVED TO GIVE MONEY TO HARVARD UNIVERSITY.
HARVARD UNIVERSITY HAS $36 BILLION IN THE BANK.
RIGHT?
IF THEY WANTED TO SPEND MONEY ON SOMETHING, THEY'D JUST GO AND TAKE CASH OUT OF THE BANK WHERE THEY HAVE 36 BILLION IT SITTING THERE.
THEY WOULD SAY IT'S THE RIPPLE EFFECT, THE RESEARCH, THE MASS PLACE IN PUBLIC SECTOR AND IN PUBLIC LIFE.
THAT THESE BIG RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.
I WANT TO MAKE ONE OTHER POINT.
THIS IS ONE OF MY HOBBY HORSES.
THE OTHER ASSUMPTION IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST CAPABLE OF DOING HIGH QUALITY RESEARCH CAN ONLY BE FOUND AT THE HAND FULL OF ELITE UNIVERSITIES.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT'S TRUE.
WHY DOES HE ASSUME AT SOME LARGE PUBLIC INSTITUTION SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD THERE AREN'T PLENTY OF EXTRAORDINARILY CAPABLE PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T BENEFIT FROM ADDITIONAL RESOURCES?
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER ISSUE YOU FOCUSSED ON.
IT'S KIND OF I GUESS EDUCATION RELATED.
IT'S ABOUT MEMORY.
AND YOU HAVE A VERY INTERESTING TAKE ON MEMORY AND HOW ONE SHOULD TREAT PEOPLE WHO MAY IN HEIGHTENED CIRCUMSTANCES SAY SOMETHING, REMEMBER SOMETHING, AND THE DETAILS TURN OUT TO BE WRONG, BUT THE BIG STORY IS NOT NECESSARILY WRONG.
DIVE DOWN ON THAT.
I KNOW IN OUR BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, JOURNALISTS AND POLITICIANS, THEY JUMP ON ANYBODY WHO MAKES THE SLIGHTEST DEVIATION FROM WHATEVER SO-CALLED, YOU KNOW, THE FACT.
SO THIS WAS AN EPISODE I DID LAST SEASON CALLED FREE BRIAN WILLIAMS.
IT WAS ALL ABOUT REMEMBER, BRIAN WILLIAMS FAMOUS SLI GOT IN TROUBLE FOR TELLING A STORY ABOUT THE IRAQ WAR, ABOUT HOW HIS HELICOPTER WAS SHOT AT THAT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE.
HE WAS CALLED A LIAR.
HE WAS SHAMED.
HE HAD TO STEP DOWN FROM HIS JOB.
HIS CAREER WAS DERAILED.
I THINK I CAN SAY THIS.
IF YOU ASK MEMORY RESEARCHERS, THEY ROLL THEIR EYES.
WHY?
BECAUSE ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT MEMORY KNOWS THAT IT IS THE MOST ERROR RIDDEN, INACCURATE PROBLEMATIC -- OUR MEMORY IS NOT A SNAPSHOT OF THE EXPERIENCES WE LIVE IN THAT WE RETRIEVE WHEN WE HAVE A MEMORY AND KIND OF -- NO.
OUR MEMORY IS THE MOST KIND OF FLAWED FRAGMENTARY AND WHEN WE REMEMBER SOMETHING, HALF THE TIME WE'RE NOT EVEN REMEMBERING THE ORIGINAL EVENT.
WE ARE REMEMBERING THE LAST TIME WE TALKED ABOUT THE EVENT.
RIGHT?
EACH TIME WE TALK ABOUT A MEMORY IN A SENSE IT GETS CHANGED.
SO ALL OF US, ALL THE TIME, HAVE MEMORIES WHICH ARE FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED WHICH WE DON'T REALIZE BECAUSE WHEN -- YOU KNOW, WHEN ORDINARY PEOPLE TELL A STORY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO THEM 20 YEARS AGO, IT DOESN'T GET FACT CHECKED?
.
I FIND IT INTERESTING.
FAMOUS SLI, AGAIN, BRIAN WILLIAMS DID DO THE HARD SLOG.
HE WAS FIRED, AS YOU SAY, BUT HE WENT TO THE CABLE OUTFIT AND KIND OF SLOGED HIS WAY BACK UP.
AND HE'S REHABILITATED HIMSELF IN A PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY WAY IN OUR MEDIUM.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN MISTAKES AND LIES AND ARE YOU ALSO SAYING THAT NOTHING WE REMEMBER MAY BE -- WE MAY BE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR?
THAT WE COULD SAY ANYTHING AN ATTRIBUTE IT TO FAULTY MEMORY?
NO.
I'M SAYING YOU CANNOT PERCEIVE ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT IF SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING THAT'S ERRONEOUS, THEY ARE DELIBERATELY MISLEADING YOU.
IF I AM TO SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU AND I MET YEARS AGO.
I REMEMBER IT AS BEING AT MY FRIEND BRUCE'S HOUSE IN 2011.
YOU KNOW?
IF I'M GOING TO GO ON RECORD OF SAYING I MET YOU AT MY FRIEND BRUCE'S HOUSE WITHOUT UNCERTAINTY, I SHOULD PAUSE, CALL UP PROBRUCE AND SAY DID WEL MEET AT YOUR HOUSE, OR IF I HAVE -- I ACTUALLY HAVE DATE BOOKS.
YOU KNOW?
I SHOULD CHECK MY DATE BOOK AND SEE DID IT ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN 2011?
IT'S VERY CLEAR, I BELIEVE THAT BRIAN WILLIAMS WAS NOT DELIBERATELY DECEIVING ANYONE.
I THINK IF YOU EXAMINE THE WAY THAT FAULTY MEMORIES EMERGE AND HOW THEY LOOK, HIS STATEMENT ABOUT BEING FIRED ON REALLY SOUNDS LIKE IT FALLS INTO THE CATEGORY OF AN ERRONEOUS MEMORY.
I ONLY FAULT HIM IN TELLING A STORY WITHOUT PAUSING AND CHECKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE TO MAKE SURE IT'S TRUE.
IN OTHER WORDS, HE SHOULD BE AWARE AS A PROFESSIONAL JOURNALIST THAT HIS OWN MEMORY LIKE ALL OF US, LIKE ALL OUR MEMORIES IS FLAWED.
AND I THINK HE HAS NOW LEARNED THAT LESSON.
ALL OF US SHOULD LEARN FROM THAT AND BE MORE CAUTIOUS BOTH IN HOW WE STATE MEMORIES AND HOW WE MAKE SENSE OF OTHERS.
IT'S REALLY AN INTERESTING WAY TO LOOK AT THIS, ACTUALLY.
IT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO THE WHOLE CONSTRUCT, THE WHOLE DEBATE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CREATED AROUND FACTS AND FAKE AND ALL THE RERS OF IT.
WITH TRUMP, I ACTUALLY THINK A LOT OF HIS FALSEHOODS ARE NOT DELIBERATE.
NOT DELIBERATE IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK HE HONESTLY BELIEVES THEY ARE TRUE.
BUT I THINK HIS SIN IS ONE OF LAZINESS.
HE IS UNWILLING TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE ORIGINAL FACT OR SOURCE THE FACT THAT IS LODGED IN HIS HEAD.
I DON'T THINK HE THINKS THE -- THINKS X AND IS DELIBERATELY SAYING 'Y'. I THINK HE'S BLISSFULLY UNAWARE OF MUCH OF WHAT HE SAYS OUT OF HIS MOUTH IS NOT TRUE.
LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY, YOU ARE A RUNNER.
YOU HAVE AN EVENT THAT YOU FOCUS ON WHICH IS THE MILE.
AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW HOW THAT PLAYS INTO YOUR LIVES, HOW IT PLAYS INTO THE WAY YOU THINK.
THIS SORT OF INDIVIDUALISM.
SOME SAY THE LONELINESS OF THE LONG DISTANCE RUNNER.
TELL ME ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS YOU AND YOUR THINKING IF AT ALL.
OH.
UM, I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
I MEAN, I SUPPOSE YES, RUNNERS ARE AS A GROUP TEND TO BE KIND OF INTROVERTED, A LITTLE BIT DELIGHTFULLY NERDY.
WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH OUR OWN THOUGHTS.
YOU THINK ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ROUTINELY GO OUT AND RUN FOR AN HOUR OR HOUR AND A HALF, THAT'S A LOT OF TIME TO BE ALONE WITH YOURSELF, PARTICULARLY NOW.
NOT IN THE 19th CENTURY BUT IN THE 21th CENTURY, AN HOUR AND A HALF ALL BY YOURSELF IN SILENCE, ESSENTIALLY, JUST THINKING THOUGHTS IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL.
SO RUNNING -- AND I FIND THAT ALONE TIME TO BE EXTRAORDINARILY USEFUL IN MY WORK.
BECAUSE I THINK GOOD WORK REQUIRES SOME DEGREE OF REFLECTION.
WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT?
ON THAT NOTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH, MALCOLM GLADWELL.
IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
THANK YOU.
> REFLECTION AND MEMORY COMES IN ALL SHAPES AND SIZES AND AROUND THE WORLD, LEONARD COHEN IS CONSIDERED MUSIC ROYALTY WITH HITS LIKE HALL LUNA AND SUZANN.
HOW DID HE BECOME THE MUSICIAN THE WORLD KNOWS AND LOVES.
NICK BLOOMFIELD SET OUT TO ANSWER THAT VERY QUESTION.
OVER THE YEARS HE'S TURNED HIS LENS ON CULTURAL ICONS LIKE KURT COBAIN AND WHITNEY HOUSTON AND NOW IN HIS NEW FILM, HE EXAMINES AND REFLECTS ON THE ALL-CONSUMING AND OFTEN COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COHEN AND HIS MUSE, MARY ANN ELIN WHO WAS THE INSPIRATION BEHIND THE MUSIC AND, OF COURSE, THIS ICONIC BALLAD.
♪ NOW SO LONG MARY ANN ♪ IT'S TIME THAT WE BEGAN TO LAUGH ♪ ♪ AND CRY ♪ AND CRY ♪ AND LAUGH ABOUT IT ALL AGAIN
AND WHAT MAKES THIS STORY PERHAPS EVEN MORE POIGNANT AND INTERESTING IS THAT MARY ANN ALSO HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH NICK AND INSPIRED HIM TO MAKE HIS FIRST FILM.
WHILE THIS IS A STORY ABOUT A BRILLIANT MALE SUPERSTAR, IT IS ALSO ABOUT A GREAT WOMAN WHO WAS A MUSE LIKE VERY FEW OTHERS.
NICK BLOOMFIELD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS SUBJECT, TO LEONARD AND MARY ANN AND WORDS OF LOVE, PARTICULARLY?
IT'S DEFINITELY THE MOST PERSONAL FILM I'VE DONE.
WHEN I WAS 20 I HAPPENED TO GO TO EDRA, THIS ISLAND IN GREECE, AND I MET MARY ANN.
I WAS PRETTY LOST, A 20-YEAR-OLD, JUST STARTED UNIVERSITY.
STUDYING THE LAW.
AND MARY ANN KIND OF COMPLETELY OPENED MY EYES TO THIS WHOLE OTHER WORLD.
SO WHEN YOU MET HER, DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE WAS THE MARY ANN OF LEONARD COHEN?
WELL, AT THAT TIME I'D NEVER HEARD OF LEONARD COHEN OR MARY ANN.
I'D NEVER HEARD THE SONG.
SO I JUST SAW THIS INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL NORWEGIAN WOMAN WHO WAS SEVERAL YEARS OLDER THAN ME, AND I WAS JUST LIKE WOW, THIS IS HEAVEN HAS LANDED KIND OF THING.
BUT WE HAD A SORT OF ENDURING FRIENDSHIP, AND SHE ENCOURAGED ME TO MAKE MY FIRST FILM, AND HAD A VERY BIG INFLUENCE REALLY ON MY FUTURE.
AND WHEN SHE AND LEONARD DIED THREE MONTHS APART, I WAS -- WELL, THERE WAS SUCH A BIG FIXTURE, I THINK, AND I THINK LEONARD'S WORK HAS RESONATED WITH SO MANY PEOPLE, THAT I JUST FELT I WANTED TO REVISIT THAT TIME.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL BE FASCINATED, BECAUSE EVERYTHING LEONARD COHEN SEEMS TO FASCINATE PEOPLE.
AND HE DID HAVE THAT MASSIVE REVIVAL ON HIS OWN CAREER BEFORE HE DIED AND WENT ON TOUR AND SUDDENLY ANOTHER WHOLE GENERATION GOT TO LEARN ABOUT LEONARD COHEN.
HOW DID LEONARD COHEN BECOME LEONARD COHEN UNDER MARY ANN'S TUTELAGE.
HOW DID THIS GEEKY GUY TURN UP ON THE GREEK ISLAND AND RETURN A MAJOR RECORDING STAR?
WELL, I THINK EDRA IS VERY, VERY BEAUTIFUL, AND LEONARD, I THINK BOUGHT A HOUSE FOR $1500 AND COULD LIVE THERE FOR VIRTUALLY NOTHING, SO PEOPLE WERE REALLY ABLE TO EXPLORE THEIR ART.
AND I THINK HE AND MARY ANN MET VERY EARLY ON.
MARY ANN'S FIRST MARRIAGE HAD SPLIT UP, AND I THINK LEONARD VERY MUCH BEFRIENDED HER AND WAS HELPING, BEING A FATHER TO HER YOUNG SON, AXLE.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP.
I MEAN, IT'S MUCH LATER.
IT'S LEONARD COHEN BALD AND PERHAPS DURING ONE OF HIS MONASTERY PERIODS AND HE'S TALKING ABOUT LOVE.
I WANT TO PLAY IT.
WORDS OF LOVE IS THE TITLE OF YOUR FILM.
THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT.
LOVE IS AN ACTIVITY THAT MAKES THE POWER OF MAN AND WOMAN THAT INCORPORATES IT INTO YOUR OWN HEART.
WHERE YOU CAN EMBODY MAN AND WOMAN.
WHEN YOU CAN EMBODY HELL AND HEAVEN.
WHEN YOU CAN RECONCILE AND CONTAIN.
WHEN IT BECOMES YOUR CONTENT.
IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOUR WOMAN BECOMES YOUR OWN CONTENT.
AND YOU BECOME HER CONTENT.
THAT'S LOVE.
SHE CLEARLY WAS TO AN EXTENT, HIS CONTENT.
RIGHT?
YOU WROTE SO MUCH ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP.
YES.
AND I THINK THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CONVENTIONAL CHOCOLATE BOX KIND OF LOVE.
I THINK THEY HAD AN ENDURING LOVE THAT WENT FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.
AND IF YOU REMEMBER, LEONARD WROTE THAT BEAUTIFUL MESSAGE TO MARY ANN WHEN SHE WAS DYING WHICH CLEARLY MEANT SO MUCH TO HER.
WELL, I'M GOING TO HAVE YOU READ THIS.
IF YOU DON'T MIND.
OKAY.
I MEAN, THIS IS A GREAT MAN'S WORK.
SO -- WELL MARY ARN, IT'S COME TO THIS TIME WHEN WE'RE REALLY SO OLD AND OUR BODIES ARE FALLING APART.
AND I THINK I WILL FOLLOW YOU VERY SOON.
KNOW THAT I AM SO CLOSE BEHIND YOU THAT IF YOU STRETCH OUT YOUR HAND, I THINK YOU CAN REACH MINE.
AND YOU KNOW THAT I'VE ALWAYS LOVED YOU FOR YOUR BEAUTY AND YOUR WISDOM, BUT I DON'T NEED TO SAY ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT.
BUT NOW I JUST WANT TO WISH YOU A VERY GOOD JOURNEY.
GOOD-BYE, OLD FRIEND.
ENDLESS LOVE.
SEE YOU DOWN THE ROAD.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO HEAR LEONARD READING THAT RATHER THAN ME READING IT.
I FEEL, YOU KNOW --
UNCHARACTERISTICALLY SHY.
WELL, I FEEL VERY YES, HUMBLED -- I MEAN, I THINK IT'S SUCH A BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN PIECE OF PRECISELY ENDURING LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP AND I THINK WHEN YOU SEE THE SCENE OF THAT LETTER BEING READ TO MARY ANN AS SHE'S LYING ON HER BED, YOU ALSO REFLECT ON YOUR OWN LIFE AND YOUR OWN LOVES, AND I THINK IT TAKES ON A VERY DEEP MEANING FOR ANYONE SEEING IT.
BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THEY MAINTAINED THIS LIFE-LONG FRIENDSHIP AFTER THEY WERE NO LONGER LOVERS, IT HAD BEEN QUITE HARD FOR HER.
RIGHT?
I MEAN, SUDDENLY HERE'S THIS GUY WHO SHE SORT OF DIRECTED INTO WHAT BECAME MASSIVE GLOBAL STARDOM.
WOMEN HURLING THEMSELVES AT HIM.
HIM HAVING LOADS OF AFFAIRS BUT ALSO TRYING TO KEEP HER CLOSE.
JUST DESCRIBE WHAT BECAME OF HER AS THEIR RELATIONSHIP PROGRESSED AND HIS CAREER PROGRESSED.
I THINK IT WAS PAINFUL FOR MARY ANN.
I MET MARY ANN IN THE PERIOD WHEN LEONARD WAS IN NEW YORK.
BECAUSE I WAS THERE IN '68.
I THINK HIS FIRST ALBUM CAME OUT IN '67.
IT WAS OBVIOUSLY A VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR MARY ANN.
SHE WAS ALONE.
SHE HAD HER EIGHT-YEAR-OLD WITH HER.
AND I THINK SHE PURSUED HIM AND WENT TO NEW YORK.
BECAUSE HE CALLED HER.
HE CALLED HER, YES, EXACTLY.
AND HIS LIFE HAD IN A SENSE MOVED ON.
YOU KNOW?
HE WAS LIVING IN THE CHELSEA HOTEL, AND IT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT LIFE TO LIVING ON EDRA.
YOU SAY YOU VISITED HER THERE, BUT SHE HAD ALSO COME TO VISIT YOU WHEN YOU WERE WORKING IN CARDIFF.
THERE'S A CLIP I'M GOING TO PLAY ABOUT YOU NARRATING THE PICTURES.
MARRY ANN VISITED ME IN CARDIFF WHERE I WAS A STUDENT LIVING DOWN BY THE DOCKS.
I WAS CONCERNED SHE MIGHT GET BORED BUT SHE WAS NATURALLY INTERESTED IN EVERYONE.
SHE REGARDED BEING RECEPTIVE AND OPEN AS THE HIGHEST OF QUALITIES.
MARY ANN MADE FRIENDS WITH ALL THE KIDS IN THE STREET WHO FOLLOWED HER AROUND ALL DAY.
AND SHE ENCOURAGED ME TO MAKE MY VERY FIRST FILM ON SLUM CLEARANCE AS THE WHOLE COMMUNITY WAS BEING TORN DOWN.
MARY ANN LIKED TO THROW IN EVERY DAY AND GET STONED.
SHE TALKED ABOUT LEONARD A LOT.
HIS FAVORITE SANDWICH SHOP.
HIS SPIRITUAL SEARCH, EVEN DABBLING IN SCIENTOLOGY.
MARY ANN TOO WAS ON HER OWN SPIRITUAL SEARCH AND LEONARD WAS IN MANY WAYS HER TEACHER.
ONE DAY SHE ASKED ME TO DRIVE HER.
SHE SAID SHE WAS PREGNANT WITH LEONARD'S CHILD.
I MEAN, THAT'S A PRETTY STARTLING ADMISSION TO YOU.
WHAT HAPPENED?
WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN SHE SAID THAT TO YOU?
WELL, I WAS.
AND YOU KNOW, IT WAS OBVIOUSLY -- I FELT VERY A SAD MOMENT.
AND THAT MUST HAVE BEEN A VERY BIG MOMENT, I GUESS, IN MARY ANN'S LIFE.
SHE DIDN'T KEEP THIS CHILD.
NO, SHE DIDN'T, AND I THINK YES, I THINK IT WAS A SOURCE OF GREAT UNHAPPINESS FOR HER.
BUT SHE WAS ALSO, YOU KNOW, A VERY PROUD AND DIGNIFIED PERSON.
I GUESS SHE FELT THAT'S NOT SOMETHING HE WANTED.
YOU SAY SHE WAS YOUR MUSE TO AN EXTENT.
WERE YOU LOVERS?
ZL WE WERE LOVERS, YEAH, BUT I FEEL THAT I WAS A SORT OF PASSING LOVER.
I THINK HER REAL LOVE WAS ALWAYS VERY MUCH LEONARD RIGHT THE WAY THROUGH HER LIFE.
AND I THINK SHE HAD A VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN HIS HEART, TOO.
AS PROVEN BY THAT LETTER, AND THEN HE DIED SEVERAL MONTHS AFTER HER.
YES, EXACTLY.
.
THE WHOLE TRAJECTORY --
IT WAS A VERY UNCONVENTIONAL LOVE, BUT I THINK WE ALL HAVE THOSE KINDS OF LOVES IN RELATIONSHIPS IN OUR LIVES THAT AREN'T SORT OF TEXTBOOK LOVES BUT ARE DEEP, AND I THINK MAKING THE FILM MADE ME VERY MUCH REFLECT ON SO MANY FRIENDS THAT I'VE SORT OF ALMOST SEMI LOST TOUCH WITH THAT IN OUR BUSY LITTLE LIVES WE DO THINGS THAT PROBABLY AREN'T AS IMPORTANT AS REFLECTING ON SOME OF OUR FRIENDSHIPS.
IS THAT KIND OF WHAT LED YOU TO DO THIS?
BECAUSE IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT IN TONE FROM SOME OF THE OTHER FILMS YOU'VE DONE.
YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF FILMS ABOUT MUSIC AND MUSICIANS.
SOME OF WHICH HAVE GOT YOU INTO SOME TROUBLE AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.
YOU'VE DONE FILMS ABOUT MURDER AS WELL.
THIS ONE WAS PARTICULARLY SWEET.
IS IT BECAUSE YOU'RE AN OLDER NICK AND YOU'RE REFLECTING ON FRIENDSHIPS AND LOVE?
ARE YOU CHANGING THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THE WORLD?
WELL, I THINK IT CERTAINLY MADE ME REFLECT ON A VERY PERSONAL TIME IN MY LIFE.
MUCH MORE SO THAN MOST -- MOST OF MY OTHER SUBJECTS WERE ABOUT SUBJECTS.
THEY WERE SORT OF OUT THERE.
WHAT I'VE NOTICED WITH PEOPLE SEEING THIS FILM IS THEY HAVE VERY INTIMATE CONVERSATIONS WITH ME AFTER.
I THINK IT REMINDS THEM SO MUCH OF THEIR OWN LOVES.
LITERALLY IS A BIT OF A WHIPLASH.
THE NEXT CLIP IS ABOUT A SERIAL KILLER ON DEATH ROW.
YOU SAW HER EVEN JUST BEFORE SHE WAS KILLED.
AND SHE INSISTED ON SAYING THIS TO YOU.
AND IT WAS ABOUT HER, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT HER CLAIM OF SELF-DEFENSE WAS A LIE.
RIGHT.
ID HEAR, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU JUST COULDN'T STAND BEING ON DEATH ROW AFTER 12 YEARS.
NICK, THIS IS THE LAST TIME I'M GOING TO SAY IT.
YOU HAVE TO KILL EILENE MORRIS, BECAUSE SHE'LL KILL AGAIN.
WHAT DID YOU TAKE FROM THAT?
I MEAN, THIS WOMAN TELLING YOU THAT I HAVE TO BE KILLED?
WELL, I DO THINK IT WAS THE FILM BASICALLY INVESTIGATES THAT STATEMENT, AND I THINK EILENE WAS AN INCREDIBLE VICTIM HERSELF.
SHE WAS ABUSED BY BOTH HER GRANDFATHER AND HER BROTHER, AND ALL HIS FRIENDS FROM PRETTY MUCH THE AGE OF NINE, AND SHE WAS LIVING ALMOST LIKE A SORT OF FERRELL ANIMAL IN THE WOODS.
AND I THINK EILENE WAS HAVING A TERRIBLE TIME IN PRISON.
I THINK BEING SO-CALLED AMERICA'S FIRST FEMALE SERIAL KILLER WAS NOT AN ENVIABLE POSITION.
THE PRISON GUARDS HATED HER, AND I THINK SHE WAS VERY MUCH LOSING HER MIND.
SHE FELT THAT HER MIND WAS BEING CONTROLLED BY RADIO WAVES.
YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF THING.
SO IT WAS A COMPLEX STUDY REALLY OF SOMEONE WHO I THINK WANTED TO BE EXECUTED BY THE END.
AND WHY DO YOU THINK SHE LIKED YOU SO MUCH AND BONDED AND GAVE YOU SO MUCH?
YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.
I MEAN, SOMETIMES THERE'S JUST A CONNECTION, AND AFTER I MADE THE FIRST FILM, I THINK IT WAS A 14-YEAR PERIOD BEFORE SHE WAS EXECUTED, SHE WOULD WRITE ME INCREDIBLY LONG LETTERS WITH DRAWINGS AND I WOULD SEND BACK A MISERABLE POSTCARD, BUT THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF TRUST.
YOU GOT UNLIKELY REACTIONS BECAUSE YOU PUT YOURSELF INTO YOUR MOVIES PROMINENTLY, WHETHER IT'S CURTAIN KOURTNEY.
SHE GOT THE FILM PULLED BEFORE IT WAS IN SUN DANCE.
SHE WAS MAD AT YOU.
LILY TOMLIN SUED YOU BECAUSE APPARENTLY YOU WERE GOING TO DO A SPOILER ON HER STANDUP.
AND THEN BIGGIE AND TUPAC.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT YOU AND THE FILMS AND STORIES YOU TELL THAT GET THESE PEOPLE OR FAMILIES OR ESTATES UPSET?
I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT TO DO AN AUTHORIZED STORY THAT IS THE WAY YOU WANT TO TELL THE STORY.
AND I THINK WITH CURTAIN COURTNEY, THERE'S A GREAT STORY TO TELL, BUT IT WASN'T ONE THAT ANYBODY SEEMS TO WANT TO HAVE TOLD.
WHICH WAS THE ONE YOU WANTED TO TELL?
IT STARTED OFF AS A POETRY REALLY OF CURT, HIS MUSICAL INFLUENCES AND THEN THE MORE COURTNEY TRIED TO CLOSE IT DOWN --
SHE WOULDN'T LET YOU USE ANY OF THE MUSIC.
IT BECAME ABOUT THESE AT ATTEMPTS TO CLOSE THE FILM DOWN.
IT REALLY BECAME MORE A FILM ABOUT FREEDOM OF THE PRESS AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHICH WAS BEING DEFINED BY KOURTNEY.
SHE WAS REALLY DEFINING THE FILM.
WE HAVE A CLIP THAT GOES TO THE HEART AFTER WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
AND THIS IS AT AN ACLU MEETING FOR AN AWARDS BENEFIT.
SHE'S THERE BECAUSE SHE'S FRIENDS WITH THE HEAD OF THE ACLU, AND SHE'S BEING LAUDED BY THIS GUY, AND YOU TAKE EXCEPTION TO THAT AND SOMEHOW GET YOURSELF ON TO THE PODIUM AND BEHIND THE MIC, AND YOU'RE BASICALLY SPEAKING UP AGAINST COURTNEY LOVE.
LET'S LISTEN.
THIS IS CONSIDERED APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR TO THREATEN ORCA JOEL OR MANIPULATE JOURNALISTS, BEING JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE WRITTEN UNFLATTERING REVIEWS, I FIND IT A STRANGE TRADITION ON THE PART OF THE ACLU TO CHOOSE KOURTNEY LOVE AS A SPECIAL GUEST HERE TONIGHT.
AND TO COURTNEY LOVE, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK WHAT YOU FEEL --
THAT'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE ACLU YOU CAN HEAR SHOUTING.
GET OUT.
HE'S A GOOD FRIEND OF COURTNEY'S.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ALL THESE YEARS LATER SEEING THAT?
I FELT THIS WAS SUCH A RIDICULOUS HOLLYWOOD MOMENT WHERE THEY WERE SO CAUGHT UP IN THE CELEBRITY OF THE MOMENT THAT THE FACT THAT I THINK IT WAS YOU KNOW, LIN HER ISSUEBERG WAS ALMOST BLUDGEONED BY AN AWARD BY COURTNEY.
I THOUGHT THIS IS RIDICULOUS.
ONE HAS TO DO PROP TO POINT THIS OUT.
AND DID YOU GET ANY PUSHBACK?
WELL, I DID.
MY AGENT, MY OWN AGENT WAS JUST -- HE WAS TELLING ME ABOUT THIS LUNATIC WHO HAD GONE UP.
I SAID IT WAS ME, DAN, IT WAS ME.
HE SAID NO, HOW ON EARTH AM I GOING TO GET YOU A JOB WHEN YOU BEHAVE?
I GOT A LOT OF PUSHBACK.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN NERVOUS, AFRAID OF ANY OF THE SUBJECTS YOU'VE CHOSEN TO FOCUS ON, AND SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN QUITE TOUGH?
THE MOST FRIGHTENED I EVER GOT WHEN I WAS WITH MARGARET THATCHER, AND I WAS LOOKING INTO HER SON'S ILLEGAL ARMS DEALS.
WE SUDDENLY REALIZED WE WERE BEING FOLLOWED BY SOME SECRET SERVICE GROUP OR ANOTHER, AND I REALLY FELT WE WERE ON THE PARAMETERS OF THE LAW AS YOU KNOW IT.
AND YOU'RE SUDDENLY OUTSIDE THE REGULAR POLICE FORCE, AND I THINK WE ALL SLEPT THE WHOLE CREW ALL SLEPT IN THE SAME HOTEL ROOM THAT NIGHT.
YOU KNOW?
AND THAT WAS THE MOST FRIGHTENED I'D BEEN.
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING THAT I THINK YOU HAVE AN UNCLE WHO IS A CAMERAMAN BACK IN THE DAY, AND HE WAS WORKING WITH THE GREAT NOW GREAT DAVID --
YES.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
HE'S SO INSPIRING.
I FIND HIM SO INSPIRING.
YES.
HE WAS CALLED UNCLE CHUNK.
STILL ALIVE.
INCREDIBLY SORT OF MODEST GUY WHO ALWAYS DID THE MOST DANGEROUS THINGS.
HE HAD A LITTLE WINDUP CAMERA.
HE AND DAVID USED TO PUT THINGS ON THEIR BACK AND DISAPPEAR FOR SIX MONTHS AT THE TIME AND GET EXOTIC ANIMALS AND DID EARLY PROGRAMS.
I ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS IS THE LIFE FOR ME.
THIS IS SO WONDERFUL, AND THEY CAME BACK WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT STORIES AND BLOW PIPES AND MASKS.
AND DISEASES, MALARIA?
.
YES.
OF COURSE.
WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU?
I'M NOT SURE.
I JUST DID A FILM ABOUT MY FATHER, WHICH WILL COINCIDE WITH AN EXHIBITION AT THE VMA.
HE WAS AN INDUSTRIAL PHOTOGRAPHER.
SORT OF VERY -- HAD VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS OF PHOTOGRAPHY AND FILM TO MYSELF.
SO WE WERE VERY CLOSE, BUT ALSO I THINK HIS WORK WAS BEAUTIFULLY CRAFTED.
INCREDIBLY DONE.
HE HAD ENORMOUS RESPECT FOR THE WORKER.
YOU KNOW?
BECAUSE HE GREW UP IN FACTORIES.
I THINK HE REGARDED MY WORK AS MUCH TOO A BIT SLAP DASH, A BIT TOO CONFRONTATIONAL.
WE WENT THROUGH A DIFFICULT PERIOD, BUT I THINK WE HAD A WONDERFUL RELATIONSHIP.
IT'S PARTLY ABOUT THAT.
LOOK FORWARD TO THAT AND WORDS OF LOVE WHICH IS OUT IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
THANKS.
THANK YOU.
> AND ISN'T INSPIRATION WHAT WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR?
WE TURN NOW FROM THE GROUND BREAKING MUSICIAN TO THE EARLY PIONEERS OF AMERICA'S MIDWEST.
IT'S THE FOCUS OF A NEW BOOK BY DAVID McCALL . IT DOCUMENTS THE FIGURES WHO OVERCAME HARDSHIPS TO BUILD A COMMUNITY THAT WAS BASED ON FREEDOM OF RELIGION, FREE UNIVERSAL EDUCATION, AND THE PROHIBITION OF SLAVERY.
WALTER ISAAC SAN BEGAN BY READING THE OPENING SENTENCE ABOUT THE CRUCIAL ROLE OF A MASSACHUSETTS REVEREND.
I'M GOING TO READ THE OPENING SENTENCE OF THIS BOOK.
IT'S NEVER BEFORE AS HE KNEW, HAD ANY OF HIS COUNTRYMEN SET OFF TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING LIKE WHAT HE AGREED TO UNDERTAKE, A MISSION THAT SHOULD HE SUCCEED, WOULD CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY.
I THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO KEEP READING.
WHAT WAS THAT MISSION?
TO CREATE WHAT WAS CALLED THE NORTHWEST TERRITORY WHICH WAS THAT TERRITORY SEEDED TO US BY THE BRITISH AFTER THE END OF THE REVOLUTION WHICH WOULD EVENTUALLY INCLUDE FIVE STATES, OHIO, INDIANA, ILLINOIS, MICHIGAN, AND WISCONSIN.
AN AREA THAT WAS ALL STILL WILDERNESS, AND WOULD DOUBLE THE SIZE OF OUR COUNTRY.
THE OHIO COMPANY WAS WHAT IT WAS CALLED.
IT WAS HATCHED IN THE WHOLE BUNCH A TAVERN IN BOSTON WAS TO CREATE A NEW AMERICA IN EFFECT OUT THERE.
WHICH WOULD BE BASED ON FOUR FUNDAMENTAL PRECEPTS, FOUR FUNDAMENTAL OBJECTIVES.
ONE, THAT THERE WOULD BE COMPLETE FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
TWO, THAT THE NATIVE PEOPLES LIVING THERE WOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT AND FAITH IN THEM.
THREE, THAT THERE WOULD BE PUBLIC EDUCATION FOR EVERYBODY STARTING IN GRADE SCHOOL ALL THE WAY THROUGH COLLEGE.
NO STATE HAD ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO THAT.
OF COURSE, IT TURNED OUT TO BE THE BIRTHPLACE OF ALL OUR STATE UNIVERSITIES.
AND FOURTH, AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, MOST RADICAL OF ALL, THERE WOULD BE NO SLAVERY.
THIS MAN WHO IS STARTING OFF WAS DETERMINED THAT THE IDEA OF ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL WOULD NOT JUST BE WORDS ON PAPER BUT WOULD BE, IN FACT, PART OF AMERICAN LIFE.
THAT THERE WOULD BE NO SLAVERY IN THAT HUGE NEW EMPIRE AS IT WERE.
THIS IS MA NASA KUSCUTLER.
A CLASSIC BEN FRANKLIN.
A DOCTOR OF LAW, A DOCTOR OF D DIVINITY AND A DOCTOR OF MEDICINE.
PROBABLY BECAUSE HE WAS A MINISTER AND COMPLETELY TRUSTED, HE SUCCEEDED.
HE GOT IT THROUGH CONGRESS, AND AS A CONSEQUENCE, SLAVERY WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED IN THIS NEW EMPIRE.
UP UNTIL A POINT WHEN AFTER YEARS LATER WHEN JEFFERSON BECAME PRESIDENT, THERE WAS A BIG MOVEMENT TO END THAT RULE AND TO ADMIT SLAVES.
ETTING TO THE SLAVERY THING, JEFFERSON IS AN INTERESTING FIGURE.
HE'S IN FAVOR AT FIRST IN THE NORTHWEST ORDNANCE OF KEEPING SLAVERY OUT.
AND HE WROTE THAT SENTENCE.
YOU KNOW?
WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT.
BUT HE BACKSLIDES.
YES, HE DID.
HE SAID IT WOULDN'T BE GOOD FOR HIS POLITICAL STANDING BACK HOME IF HE VOTED FOR IT.
ALSO, HE WAS LEAVING TO BECOME OUR REPRESENTATIVE, OUR AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE.
HE HAD THAT MUCH ON HIS MIND.
HE WAS GOING OUT, LEAVING THE STAGE, AS IT WERE.
HOW DO WE JUDGE FROM TODAY THESE PEOPLE OF THE PAST LIKE A JEFFERSON WHO IS A LARGER THAN LIFE CHARACTER IN THE FORMATION OF OUR VALUES, AND YET HAS THIS THING WHERE IT JUST IS SO BAD IN OUR CURRENT LIGHT THAT HE KEEPS ARGUING FOR SLAVERY.
HISTORY IS HUMAN.
YOU KNOW THAT AS WELL AS I DO.
IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE.
AND MANY OF THE GREAT FIGURES OF HISTORY ARE HISTORY, HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION, HAVE BEEN, OFTEN QUITE IMPERFECT.
BUT THAT DOESN'T THAT WHAT THEY ACCOMPLISHED WASN'T IMPORTANT OR VALUABLE OR ADMIRABLE.
JEFFERSON WAS A BRILLIANT ARCHITECT.
IF HE'D HAVE BEEN NOTHING BUT AN ARCHITECT, HE SHOULD BE SOMEONE WE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT.
BUT MY FEELING STRONGLY NOW, AND I THINK THIS WAS ONE OF THE MOTIVATIONS THAT DROVE ME RIGHT IN THIS BOOK IS THAT WE HAVE HEROS ALL THROUGH OUR HISTORY WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE LIGHT THAT THEY DESERVE.
NEVER BEEN BROUGHT ON STAGE OR FRONT AND CENTER STAGE.
THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE -- BY THE PEOPLE THAT FIGURE MY NEW BOOK ARE PEOPLE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF IN MARIETTA, OHIO, THE FIRST LEGAL SETTLEMENT IN ALL THE TERRITORY.
THEY WERE ALL EITHER HUNTERS OR TRAPPERS OR SQUATTERS.
THEY'RE THERE LEGALLY, AND THEY'RE THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING COMPENSATED AS VETERANS FOR HOW THEY'VE BEEN PAID FOR THEIR SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY.
WHICH WAS IN WHAT WAS CALLED SCRIP.
IT WAS VIRTUALLY WORTHLESS.
TENCENTS ON THE DOLLAR.
EVERYBODY IS SAYING HERE'S THIS LAND WHICH YOU CAN HAVE BY FOR VERY INEXPENSIVE PRICE WHERE THE TOPSOIL IS FIVE FEET DEEP, WHERE THERE'S EVERY KIND OF TREE FROM WHICH YOU CAN MAKE BOATS OR ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO BUILD OR MAKE AND THEY WERE GOING TO BUILD BOATS BECAUSE IT WAS ON THE OHIO RIVER.
DOWN THE MISSISSIPPI TO NEW ORLEANS AND OUT TO SEA.
AND NOBODY HAD HAD THE IMAGINATION TO REALIZE THIS WAS GOING TO BE POSSIBLE.
THE RIVER IS AT THE HEART OF THIS STORY.
WHEN THEY DECIDE TO CREATE THIS NEW SETTLEMENT, AT THE JUNCTURE OF THE OHIO ABOUT 90 MILES DOWNSTREAM ON THE OHIO FROM PITTSBURGH WHERE THE OHIO BEGINS, AND A BEAUTIFUL LOCATION.
IT STILL IS.
ABSOLUTELY STUNNING.
ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL LOCATIONS IN OUR WHOLE COUNTRY.
THEY NAMED IT FOR MARIE ANTIONETTE AS MUCH AS BEN FRANKLY, MAYBE MORE, THEY FELT BROUGHT FRANCE IN TO HELP US WIN THE WAR, AND OF COURSE, WE WOULDN'T HAVE WON THE WAR WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE FRENCH.
NOT JUST WITH MONEY BUT WITH MILITARY FORCE.
AND SO AS A TRIBUTE TO FRANCE, AND THEN THEY SET ABOUT TO CREATE THIS IDEAL COMMUNITY, AND THEY DID.
WAS CUTLER WHO HELPED GET THE ORDNANCE PASSED, HIS SON WHO HELPS, THESE ARE THE UNSUNG HEROS.
RIGHT.
WRITING ABOUT.
WERE THEY DOING IT MAINLY AS A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE --
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
OR INTO THE WILDERNESS?
NO.
THEY WERE NOT DOING THIS TO GET RICH OR TO GET FAMOUS OR TO HAVE A LOT OF POSSESSIONS.
THEY WERE DOING IT TO CREATE WHAT THEY HOPED WOULD BE AN IDEAL COMMUNITY.
AND TO BE SURE, ESSENTIALLY A NEW ENGLAND COMMUNITY.
AND ESSENTIALLY A NEW ENGLAND COMMUNITY WHICH WAS BASED ON THE PURITAN TRADITIONS.
ONE OF THE CORE VALUES OF THE NORTHWEST ORDNANCE AND OF THIS GROUP BESIDES ELIMINATING SLAVERY WAS TO LIVE IN PEACE AND HARMONY WITH A NATIVE AMERICAN AND THE INDIANS THERE.
YES.
THEY FAIL AT THAT.
WELL, THEY THEMSELVES DIDN'T FAIL AT THAT.
BUT THE WHITE SETTLERS THAT CAME AFTER THEM, AND TO SOME EXTENT, SOME OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, TO BE SURE, FAILED.
BUT PUTNAM, THE LEADER WHO MADE IT HAPPEN, HE STUCK TO THE PRINCIPLE AS BEST HE POSSIBLY COULD.
WHEN THIS WARFARE BEGAN IN 1891, THERE WAS NEVER ANY ATTACK ON MARIETTA BECAUSE THE RESPECT THAT THE NATIVE TRIBES HAD FOR PUTNAM AND HIS INTEGRITY.
WELL, TO SOME EXTENT IN THE BOOK YOU CALLED THESE PEOPLE THE SETTLERS, BUT, OF COURSE, IT WASN'T A REAL WILDERNESS THAT HADN'T BEEN SETTLED.
THERE WAS A FLOURISHING CIVILIZATION BACK 2000 YEARS REALLY.
RIGHT?
YOU TALK ABOUT THE MOUNDS OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN.
YES.
AND DATED BACK TO MAYBE 1,000 B.C., AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PUTNAM DID WAS TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT PROPERTY, THAT -- 90 ACRES, WOULD NOT BE MOLESTED AND CHANGED.
SO HE MADE THAT WHERE THE MOUND IS, ABOUT 30 FEET HIGH, HE MADE IT A GRAVEYARD FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING THERE THEN AND WOULD DIE THERE AND BE BURIED THERE INCLUDING PUTNAM.
AND THAT WAY IT WOULD BE SAVED.
IT'S STILL THERE.
IT'S A TREASURE.
YOU HAVE SOME OF THE SETTLERS HERE.
YOU QUOTE THEM AS CALLING THE INDIANS SAVAGES, AND EVEN YOU MENTIONED THAT A COUPLE TIMES AND YET THERE'S A GUY WHO IS ONE OF THE SETTLERS WHO SAYS MAYBE WE'RE THE SAVAGES.
ABSOLUTELY.
WOULD YOU HAVE DONE MORE OR TRIED TO FIND MORE TO SEE IT IN THE OTHER DIRECTION OF WHAT THE NATIVE AMERICANS MAY HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT PEOPLE TAKING THEIR LAND?
WELL, I THINK I LIKE TO THINK I'VE INCLUDED EVERYTHING THAT RELATED TO MY STORY, TO MY CHARACTERS.
I WANTED TO SEE THINGS THROUGH THEIR EYES.
AND THEY DIDN'T CALL THEM NATIVE AMERICANS, FOR EXAMPLE.
THEY CALLED THEM INDIANS OR THEY TALKED TO THE TRIBES.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS HOW MANY DIFFERENT TRIBES THERE WERE, AND HOW THEY WEREN'T ALL THE SAME, AND I THINK ONE OF THE MOST TELLING EXAMPLES OF ALL THIS EMPATHY FOR THE NATIVE AMERICANS AMONG SEVERAL OF THE FIVE CHARACTERS WHO WERE THE PRINCIPLE SUBJECT OF MY BOOK IS THAT WHEN SAMUEL HILDRETH WENT TO SPEAK BEFORE A MEDICAL CONVENTION IN CLEVELAND ABOUT 1831, I THINK IT WAS, HE IN EFFECT, DELIVERED WHAT WAS A HYMN TO THE BANISHED WILDERNESS BY THEN, BANISHED AND TO THE ORIGINAL OCCUPANTS THAT ONCE OCCUPIED THAT WILDERNESS.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CRITICISM THAT SOME OF THE NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE FELT ABOUT THAT OR DO YOU THINK THAT SORT OF --
I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'VE DEALT WITH IT.
I KNOW SOME OF THE SCHOLARS FEEL THAT WAY.
I HOPE THEY WOULD KNOW THAT I'M ALL FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
I'M ALL FOR ANYTHING THEY CAN DO.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE DON'T HAVE LETTERS AND DIARIES AND MEMOIRS WRITTEN BY THE NATIVE AMERICANS.
WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A PICTURE.
WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT BLUE JACKET, ONE OF THE KEY FIGURES IN THE DRAMA, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE.
AND ONE OF THE THRILLS OF THIS COLLECTION THAT I HAD ELECTED SOMEWHAT IS THERE'S AN OIL PORTRAIT OF EACH OF THE FIVE CHARACTERS AND ALL WERE LIVING IN -- PLAYING OUT THEIR ROLES IN LIFE BEFORE A PHOTOGRAPHY HAD BEEN INVENTED.
OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE HAD TO TRY, I SUPPOSE, FROM DESCRIPTIONS WRITTEN ABOUT THEM, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.
YOU STARTED YOUR CAREER AS A JOURNALIST.
TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOUR BRING YOUR JOURNALISTIC SKILLS TO WRITING A BOOK?
I NEVER IMAGINED THAT I WOULD BE WRITING HISTORY.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU.
I NEVER IMAGINED I WOULD BE WRITING A BIOGRAPHY, BUT I WAS WORKING FOR THE USIA DURING THE KENNEDY YEARS, AND I WENT UP TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS TO LOOK FOR SOME MATERIAL.
I WAS THE EDITOR OF A LIFESTYLE MAGAZINE.
NEEDED A LOT OF PICTURES, AND CAME IN ONE DAY AND THERE WAS A BIG TABLE THAT SPREAD OUT, PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN BY A PHOTOGRAPHER WHO GOT OVER THE MOUNTAINS DOWN INTO JOHNSTOWN WITHIN A FEW DAYS AFTER THE TERRIBLE FLOOD THERE.
I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT I SAW.
AND WHEN I SAW THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS AND I THOUGHT WHOA, HOW IN THE HELL DID THAT EVER HAPPEN?
AND I GOT GOING ON READING ABOUT IT, AND I REALIZED I LOVE DOING THIS.
THIS IS WHAT I'M GOING TO DO FROM NOW ON.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE VALUES OF DECENCY, COMMUNITY, NEIGHBORS THAT WERE PART OF THE FOUNDING.
YOU DO THAT IN ALL YOUR BOOKS.
YES.
AND THEN HERE WITH THE WEST WARD EXPANSION OF AMERICA.
SO YOU LOOK AT OUR LEADERSHIP TODAY.
AND YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT HUMILITY.
YEAH.
NOT BRAGGING.
RIGHT.
HAVING THE BASIC VALUES OF CARING.
DO YOU THINK WE REALLY LOST THAT IN WASHINGTON AND WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE DO?
THEY SHOULD STRAIGHTEN UP AND LOOK BACK AT THE VALUES THAT THEY WERE BROUGHT UP WITH, THAT THEY WERE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL.
THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.
MANY OF OUR FINEST PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN HISTORIANS AS WELL AS POLITICAL LEADERS.
I THINK HISTORY SHOULD BE REQUIRED.
IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN WHAT YOUNG PEOPLE SHOULD REALIZE IF THEY DON'T ALREADY IS THAT SOME THINGS IN LIFE ARE REQUIRED, AND ONE OF THEM IS TO BE HONEST AND TRUTHFUL AND DECENT TO YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS AND HELPFUL TO THE NEEDY.
TREATING EVERYBODY ALIKE.
RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S FROM IMMIGRANTS THAT SO MUCH OF WHAT WE ACHIEVED IN THIS COUNTRY HAS HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THE GENIUS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME INTO THIS COUNTRY FROM ELSEWHERE.
THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER YOU'VE HAD A REALLY IMPORTANT PARTNER, YOUR WIFE.
I'VE WATCHED HER INFLUENCE ON YOU.
TELL ME A STORY ABOUT HER.
SHE WAS READING MY BOOK ABOUT THEODORE RUSE VELTD ALOUD TO ME, AND WE WERE MAKING CHANGES AND SO FORTH.
AND WE GOT TO -- AT A POINT NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK AND SHE WAS READING ALOUD, AND SHE STOPPED AND SAID THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT SENTENCE.
I SAID WELL -- I DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
I SAID WELL, READ IT AGAIN.
SHE READ IT AGAIN.
SHE SAID, SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT SENTENCE.
NO, THERE ISN'T.
JUST GIVE ME THIS.
I TOOK IT FROM HER AND I READ IT ALOUD TO HER.
AND SHE SAID THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT SENTENCE.
I SAID FORGET IT.
MOVE ON.
SO WE MOVED ON.
FINISHED THE BOOK.
SENT IT TO THE PUBLISHER.
THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED AND IT GOT A VERY FAVORABLE REVIEW IN THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS.
THEY SAID SOMETIMES, HOWEVER, HE DOESN'T WRITE VERY WELL.
CONSIDER THIS SENTENCE.
WELL, IT'S PROBABLY WORTH IT TO HAVE THAT BAD SENTENCE BECAUSE YOU GOT A GOOD STORY OUT OF IT.
THANK YOU.
DAVID, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
OH, WALTER, THANK YOU FOR INCLUDING ME.
> AND WHAT A TWIST.
I WONDER WHAT TEDDY ROOSEVELT WOULD HAVE MADE OF THAT.
THAT'S IT FOR US.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.