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TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
WHAT IN THE WORLD TO MAKE OF TRUMP'S FALSEHOODS AND BIDEN'S FUMBLES?
WE EXAMINE THAT CONTENTIOUS PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE WITH DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL STRATEGIST SIMON ROSENBERG, AND TRUMP'S FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT, MARC LOTTER.
>>> THEN IRAN DECIDES.
AS THE COUNTRY HEADS TO THE POLLS, FRED PLEITGEN BRINGS US THE LATEST FROM TEHRAN.
AND I'LL DISCUSS WHAT'S AT STAKE WITH THE "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER AND IRAN EXPERT.
>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE WANTED TO EXPLORE WHAT HOLDS THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.
>> A JOURNEY INTO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
AT STAKE IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTION, AUTHOR FRANCIS BARRY TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK INSPIRED BY A CROSS-COUNTRY ROAD TRIP VIA THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY.
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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
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THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
IN A TELEVISED PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, OPTICS ARE EVERYTHING BUT THE DEVIL IS ALSO IN THE DETAIL.
LAST NIGHT A FUMBLING JOE BIDEN FACED SERIAL LIAR DONALD TRUMP IN THE FIRST LIVE DEBATE.
TODAY DEMOCRATS ARE IN DAMAGE CONTROL MODE, AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUBILANT.
BUT SPEAKING TO SUPPORTERS IN NORTH CAROLINA AFTER THE DEBATE, PRESIDENT BIDEN APPEARED UNFAZED.
>> THE CHOICE IN THIS ELECTION IS SIMPLE.
DONALD TRUMP WILL DESTROY OUR DEMOCRACY, I WILL DEFEND IT.
SO, FOLKS, ARE YOU WITH ME?
DONALD TRUMP'S THE FIRST PRESIDENT I'VE HEARD OF STOOD UP THERE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT HAVING BEEN THERE FOR ONE TERM SAYING AMERICA'S A FAILING NATION.
WHERE THE HELL DOES HE THINK HE IS?
I'M SERIOUS.
FAILING -- I DON'T KNOW A PRESIDENT WHO WOULDN'T TRADE PLACES WITH AMERICA IN A HEARTBEAT.
HE'S DEAD WRONG.
AMERICA IS NOT A LOSING NATION.
AMERICA'S WINNING.
AS I STAND HERE TODAY I CAN HONESTLY SAY I'M NEVER MORE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT AMERICA'S FUTURE THAN I AM IN MY WHOLE CAREER.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST NIGHT BUT I SPENT 90 MINUTES ON A STAGE DEBATING A GUY WHO HAS THE MORALS OF AN ALLEY CAT.
DID YOU SEE TRUMP LAST NIGHT?
MY GUESS HE SET AND I MEAN THIS SINCERELY A NEW RECORD FOR THE MOST LIES TOLD IN A SINGLE DEBATE.
>> AND HE'S RIGHT.
ACCORDING TO CNN'S FACT CHECK DONALD TRUMP WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE THAN THREE TIMES THE NUMBER OF FALSEHOODS THAN BIDEN.
SO AS THE DUST SETTLES AND WITH 4 1/2 MONTHS OUT UNTIL THE ELECTION, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
AMERICA NOW FACES A CHOICE, A VISIBLY AGING MAN WHO FAILED TO LIVE UP TO THAT POINT OR AN AUTHORITARIAN LEANING CONVICTED FELON FACING EVEN MORE COURTROOM TRIALS AHEAD.
ACCORDING TO A POST-DEBATE CNN SSRS POLL, 81% OF VOTERS SAID THE DEBATE DIDN'T AFFECT THEIR VOTE CHOICE.
FEW PEOPLE ARE AS WELL PLACED TO DISCUSS THE CURRENT MOMENT AND THE MOMENTUM GOING INTO THIS SUMMER'S CONVENTION THAN VETERAN DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST SIMON ROSENBERG AND MARC LOTTER, WHO SERVED AS SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND WAS DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS FOR HIS 2020 CAMPAIGN.
GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU WERE IN ATLANTA, YOU ARE IN ATLANTA WHERE THE CNN DEWAIT WAS HELD.
YOU WERE IN THE ROOMS WATCHING TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO US AFTERWARDS.
SO FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, MARC LOTTER, HOW DID YOUR CANDIDATE DO?
>> I THOUGHT DONALD TRUMP DID GREAT.
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND OFFERING A VISION TO FIX THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN LARGELY CAUSED BY JOE BIDEN.
I THINK HE SHOWED STRENGTH, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS SOUGHT IN THEIR PRESIDENTS.
CONTRASTED TO JOE BIDEN WHO REALLY STRUGGLED AND SHOWED A LOT OF WEAKNESS.
>> SO, SIMON ROSENBERG, YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU'RE THERE THE REPUBLICANS ARE VERY, VERY HAPPY WITH THE WAY THEIR CANDIDATE DID.
HOW ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS?
AND YOU ARE NOT JUST AN ADVISOR, YOU'RE A KEY STRATEGIST.
>> YEAH, LISTEN, I THINK JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN A VERY GOOD PRESIDENT WHO HAD A VERY BAD NIGHT LAST NIGHT.
AND, YOU KNOW, HOW CONSEQUENTIAL THIS WILL BE DURING THE COURSE OF THIS LONG CAMPAIGN WE'LL FIND OUT.
BUT I THINK THE OTHER THING WE SAW LAST NIGHT IN ADDITION TO JOE BIDEN BEING ABLE TO MAKE THE CASE FOR HIS PRESIDENCY, WHICH HE STRUGGLED WITH A LITTLE BIT NO QUESTION, IS WE ALSO SAW IN DONALD TRUMP A PERSON WHO'S A BAD MAN, WHO'S A TERRIBLE CANDIDATE AND WOULD BE A DISASTROUS PRESIDENT FOR THE UNITED STATES.
THE LEVEL OF LYING AND FALSEHOODS WE HEARD LAST NIGHT FROM HIM WAS SHOCKING EVEN FROM SOMEONE IN THE BUSINESS WHO'S BEEN FOLLOWING TRUMP.
VIRTUALLY NOTHING HE SAID WAS TRUE LAST NIGHT, AND SO I DON'T THINK IT WAS A GREAT DEBATE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
I DON'T THINK THEY LEARNED VERY MUCH THAT'S REALLY GOING TO HELP THEM MAKE THIS DECISION, AS YOUR OWN POLLING SHOWED.
BUT I DO THINK THIS WAS A BETTER NIGHT FOR TRUMP THAN BIDEN, AND IT MEANS WE'VE GOT WORK TO DO IN THE COMING MONTHS.
>> SO LET ME ASK YOU, MARC LOTTER, BECAUSE EVERYBODY WHO WAS WATCHING AND PEOPLE WHO TAKE NOTES AND WHO FACT CHECK BASICALLY KNOW THERE WAS THIS AS I SAID FIRE HOSE OF FALSEHOODS.
THIS IS CNN'S PARTICULAR FACT CHECKER.
>> SO, DANIEL, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU?
>> WHAT STOOD OUT WAS THE STAGGERING NUMBER OF FALSE CLAIMS FROM FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.
ON FIRST COUNT, ERIN, I COUNTED AT LEAST 30 -- 30 FALSE CLAIMS.
>> I GUESS THE QUESTION, MARC LOTTER, IS DOES IT ACTUALLY MATTER TO YOUR SIDE AND TO YOUR CANDIDATE WHEN HE CONSISTENTLY MAKES THESE FALSE CLAIMS?
AND IN THIS OBVIOUSLY THE POINT WAS NOT TO FACT CHECK IN REALTIME.
>> ULTIMATELY, I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AREN'T FOLLOWING THE GAFFS OR THE MISSTATEMENTS BY EITHER CANDIDATE.
THEY WANT SOMEONE WHO'S GOING TO DEAL WITH INFLATION, DEAL WITH GAS AND GROCERY PRICES, SECURE THE SOUTHERN BORDER, AND DEAL WITH THE WARS THAT ARE RAGING IN EUROPE AND THE MIDDLE EAST ALL ON THE WATCH OF JOE BIDEN.
SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER BACK TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY REMEMBER WE HAD A STRONG ECONOMY, NO INFLATION, A SECURED BORDER, AND ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THEY FACE RIGHT NOW FALL AT THE FEET OF JOE BIDEN.
SO I THINK SO MANY OF THE VOTERS OUT THERE LOOK AT THESE KINDS OF DEBATES THROUGH THAT PRISM.
AND IF A CANDIDATE ON EITHER SIDE MAKES A MISSTATEMENT LIKE JOE BIDEN SAYING NO TROOPS DIED ON HIS WATCH DESPITE THE FACT THAT 13 AMERICANS WERE KILLED IN HIS BOTCHED AFGHANISTAN WITHDRAWAL, THEY'RE PROBABLY GOING TO WASH A LITTLE BIT OF THAT UNDER THE RUG FOR BOTH SIDES BECAUSE THEY'RE UNSCRIPTED, WITHOUT A TELEPROMPTER RECALLING ALL OF THIS.
BOTTOM LINE, WHO'S GOING TO MAKE MY LIFE BETTER AND THE WORLD SAFER?
>> OBVIOUSLY OPTICS AND PERCEPTION ARE A HUGE POINT OF THIS, BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ECONOMY, BOTH OF YOU BECAUSE THAT IS CLEARLY TOP OF MIND NOT JUST FOR VOTERS IN THE UNITED STATES.
BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES, COST OF LIVING, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD.
SO DONALD TRUMP AS YOU SAID, MARC, MADE STRONG CLAIMS.
BUT, LISTEN, 16 NOBEL PRIZE WINNING ECONOMISTS HAVE WARNED THAT A SECOND TRUMP TERM WOULD REIGNITE INFLATION.
THEY SAY JOE BIDEN'S ECONOMIC AGENDA IS VASTLY SUPERIOR TO DONALD TRUMP'S.
ALSO, AS YOU KNOW, MARC, AND I'M SURE YOU'VE BEEN READING THESE, HE, DONALD TRUMP, HAD A MEETING WITH EXECUTIVES JUST IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.
AND THEY SAID REMARKABLY MEANDERING, COULDN'T KEEP A STRAIGHT THOUGHT, AND WAS ALL OVER THE MAP.
IT'S ALSO BEEN POINTED OUT BY JEFFREY AT YALE NOT A SINGLE PERSON AMONG FOESRBES 100 CEOs HAVE DONATED TO HIS CAMPAIGN.
>> THEY REDICTED HE WAS GOING TO RUIN THE ECONOMY IN 2016, 2017.
I PUT THEIR VALUE AS I DO WITH THE 50 INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS THAT LIED TO COVER THE HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP STORY.
LOOK, PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE TRUMP ECONOMIC POLICIES WORKED.
THEY ACTUALLY LOWERED PEOPLE'S TAXES, REAL, HARDWORKING MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS SAW THEIR TAXES GO DOWN.
THEY SAW THE AMOUNT OF REVENUE TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GO UP.
WE SAW JOBS COMING BACK.
OBVIOUSLY WE WERE RECOVERING WHEN THE PANDEMIC -- FROM THE PANDEMIC AS THE ELECTION TOOK PLACE, AND WE HAD NO INFLATION.
1.4% WHEN JOE BIDEN TOOK OFFICE.
GAS WAS A LITTLE OVER $2 A GALLON.
THOSE ARE ALL REALITIES THAT THEY CAN'T CHANGE.
AND I GET IT, YOU GET A BUNCH OF LIBERAL IVY TOWER ELITES WHO WANT JOE BIDEN TO BE PRESIDENT AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T BUYING IT.
>> YEAH, LOOK, I THINK YOU AND I BOTH KNOW MOST CEOs ARE NOT LIBERAL.
THEY MIGHT BE ELITE, BUT MANY OF MANY OF THEM HAVE BACKED FORMER AMERICAN PRESIDENTS.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT A REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS RECEIVED SO LITTLE BACKING FROM THEM.
BUT I WANT TO PUT THAT QUESTION TO YOU AS WELL, SIMON.
TRULY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, REALLY SUFFERING, COST OF LIVING, INFLATION, ALL THE REST OF IT.
BIDEN SAID, YEAH, THE ECONOMY WAS GREAT FOR RICH PEOPLE DURING TRUMP.
HE LOWERED RICH PEOPLE AND CORPORATE TAXES.
BUT WHAT ABOUT HIS OWN RECORD?
HE DIDN'T, IN FACT, DEFEND HIS OWN ECONOMIC RECORD AT ALL.
>> YEAH, I MEAN FIRST OF ALL DONALD TRUMP'S ECONOMIC RECORD IS AMONG THE WORST IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
I MEAN HE WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO HAVE JOB LOSS ON HIS WATCH SINCE HERBERT HOOVER.
AND THIS IDEA THAT HE WAS THIS -- THE ECONOMY PERFORMED STELLAR UNDER HIM WAS AN UNBELIEVABLE FALSEHOOD AND LIE.
THE SECOND THING IS THAT THE ECONOMY UNDER JOE BIDEN WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING THROUGH ONE OF THE GREATEST PERIODS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH IN AMERICAN HISTORY RIGHT NOW.
WE'VE HAD GDP GROWTH OVER 3%.
AS YOU KNOW IT'S BEEN FAR HIGHER THAN ANY OTHER G7 COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
INFLATION LAST MONTH WAS ZERO.
INFLATION DID NOT RISE, AND TODAY'S PCE NUMBER IS NOW DOWN TO BASICALLY WHERE THE FED WANTS IT TO BE, MAKING INTEREST RATES FAR MORE LIKELY TO BE CUT LATER THIS YEAR.
JOE BIDEN HAS HAD A STELLAR TRACK RECORD ON THE ECONOMY, AND THE QUESTION YOU ASKED IS GOING FORWARD THEIR PROPOSALS.
WE HAVE A BOOMING ECONOMY NOW.
"THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" LITERALLY HAD A STORY A FEW DAYS AGO ACCORDING TO THE AMERICAN ECONOMIST THE AMERICAN ECONOMY IS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD TODAY.
WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS PROPOSING WOULD RAISE -- DRAMATICALLY SPIKE INFLATION, WOULD CRIPPLE THE ECONOMY, CREATE MASSIVE WORK SHORTAGES IN THE UNITED STATES, AND CREATE FAR LARGER DEFICITS.
I MEAN IT IS -- ONE OF THE REASONS THAT CEOs ARE STAYING AWAY FROM HIM IS BECAUSE THEY VIEW HIS ECONOMIC PLANS AS BEING DANGEROUS AND RECKLESS AT A TIME WHEN AMERICA IS BOOMING AND WE'RE BREAKING RECORDS IN THE STOCK MARKET.
>> I WANT TO PLAY SIMON AND INDEED, MARC, A VIDEO AND SOUND OF PRESIDENT BIDEN AFTER THE DEBATE, AFTER HE GOT OFF THE STAGE.
LOOKED TO ME LIKE A DIFFERENT GUY.
>> I CAN'T THINK OF ONE THING HE SAID THAT WAS TRUE.
NO, I'M NOT BEING FACETIOUS.
BUT, LOOK, WE'RE GOING TO BEAT THIS GUY.
WE NEED TO BEAT THIS GUY.
AND I NEED YOU IN ORDER TO BEAT HIM.
YOU'RE THE PEOPLE I'M RUNNING FOR.
WE'RE THE FINEST NATION IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD.
NOBODY'S CLOSE.
LET'S KEEP GOING.
SEE YOU AT THE NEXT ONE.
>> I GUESS BOTH OF YOU MIGHT THINK IF THAT PERSON HAD TURNED UP ON THE STAGE IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT DYNAMIC.
BUT, SIMON, WHERE WAS THAT PERSON?
>> LISTEN, JOE BIDEN HAD A BAD NIGHT.
I MEAN, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO GET AROUND THAT.
AS I SAID EARLIER I THINK HE'S BEEN A VERY GOOD PRESIDENT, AND HE'S GOT A STRONG CASE FOR HIS RE-ELECTION.
HE WASN'T EFFECTIVE LAST NIGHT IN MAKING THAT CASE, BUT IT'S JUST ONE MOMENT IN A LONG CAMPAIGN, AND WE'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO HERE.
WE'RE IN THE VERY BEGINNING.
OUR ELECTIONS ARE LONG HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE'RE IN THE VERY BEGINNING STAGES.
THIS IN MANY WAYS IS REALLY THE BEGINNING OF THE GENERAL ELECTION, BUT WE'VE GOT TWO CONVENTIONS COMING UP.
WE'VE GOT LOTS OF OTHER -- WE'VE GOT A MAJOR MOMENT IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS WITH DONALD TRUMP'S SENTENCING, WHERE HE COULD BE SENTENCED TO PRISON IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
SO THERE ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF OTHER MOMENTS.
BUT WE ARE CLEARLY COMING OUT OF THIS KNOWING OUR JOB GOT A LITTLE BIT HARDER AND WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO AHEAD OF US.
>> MARC, BY CONTRAST THEN, DO YOU THINK YOUR JOB GOT A LITTLE BIT EASIER EVEN THOUGH YOUR CANDIDATE DOES, IN FACT, HAVE CHALLENGES AHEAD?
>> WELL, WE WENT INTO THIS WITH THE WIND AT OUR BACK TO BEGIN WITH.
THERE WERE TWO POLLS THIS WEEK FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES," QUINNIPIAC AND SIENA THAT BOTH SHOWED JOE BIDEN WINNING HEAD TO HEAD NATIONALLY BY 2 PERCENTAGE POINTS.
AT NO POINT IN 2020 DID DONALD TRUMP EVER LEAD JOE BIDEN EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC LAST TIME AROUND, SO IT SHOWS WHAT A CHALLENGE THEY HAVE.
YOU ALSO HAVE DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGNING FRIDAY IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA.
HASN'T BEEN REPUBLICAN IN 20 YEARS.
MINNESOTA IS NOW IN PLAY, SO THE SWING STATE MAP IS GROWING IN DONALD TRUMP'S FAVOR.
THE POLLS ARE ALL SHIFTING IN DONALD TRUMP'S FAVOR.
WE AND DONALD TRUMP HAVE TO JUST KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
JOE BIDEN LAST NIGHT MADE HIS JOB EVEN MORE DIFFICULT, AND IT WAS ALREADY A MOUNT EVEREST SIZED HILL TO CLIMB.
>> SIMON, I SEE YOU, YOU KNOW, SHAKING YOUR HEAD, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT COLUMNISTS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM, THOMAS FREEDMAN, FOR INSTANCE, JOE BIDEN IS A GOOD MAN, A GOOD PRESIDENT.
HE MUST BOW OUT OF THE RACE.
>> YEAH, I DO WANT TO SAY THIS IDEA THAT THE POLLS ARE SHIFTING TOWARDS TRUMP IS NOT TRUE.
I MEAN, THERE HAVE BEEN DOZENS OF POLLS TAKEN, AND THE MAJORITY OF POLLS HAVE THE RACE SHIFTING 2 TO 4 POINTS TO BIDEN OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS.
AND THIS IDEA THAT VIRGINIA AND MINNESOTA ARE GOING TO BE IN PLAY ARE JUST ABSURD.
IT'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL GAME THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS PLAYING.
THESE ARE NOT GOING TO BE COMPETITIVE STATES IN THE ELECTION.
THE ELECTION IS VERY CLOSE AND COMPETITIVE TODAY.
WE'LL SEE IF THIS DEBATE HAS AN IMPACT, BUT NEITHER CANDIDATE IS AT -- IS LEADING IN STATES GETTING TO 270.
IT'S A TOSS UP RACE TODAY.
BUT I THINK THIS DEBATE IS GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT.
WE'LL SEE WHAT IT DOES.
WE'LL KNOW SOON.
LISTEN, THERE'S GOING TO BE A DEBATE.
THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE -- THE QUESTION THAT WHETHER, YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN SHOULD STEP DOWN IS GOING TO BE DEBATED NOW.
I MEAN WE'RE PAST THAT POINT GIVEN WHAT'S HAPPENED.
I THINK, MY VIEW IS HE'S OUR NOMINEE AND I'M GOING TO FIGHT LIKE HELL EVERY DAY TO MAKE SURE HE GETS ELECTED BECAUSE FOR WHATEVER HIS CHALLENGES ARE HE'S GOING TO BE A FAR BETTER PRESIDENT THAN DONALD TRUMP.
AND SO WAVE GOT TO STAY TOQUE SED AS DEMOCRATS, PUT OUR HEAD DOWN, AND DO THE WORK.
IT MAY GET A LITTLE HARDER BUT I STILL THINK WE'RE GOING TO WIN THIS ELECTION.
>> MARC, DONALD TRUMP'S PERFORMANCE WAS STRONG AS WE SAID.
HOWEVER, GIVEN WHAT'S GOING ON, WHY IS IT THAT YOU THINK, FOR INSTANCE, MIKE PENCE, ONE OF YOUR FORMER BOSSES SHOULD SAY IT'S COME AS NO SURPRISE THAT I WILL NOT BE ENDORSING DONALD TRUMP THIS YEAR.
DEFENSE SECRETARY MARK ESPER, JAMES MATTIS, CHIEF OF STAFF JOHN KELLY, ALL HIGHLY PLACED TRUMP ADMINISTRATION VETERANS ARE NOT BACKING HIM.
THEY DENOUNCE HIM AS UNFIT TO SERVE.
YOU KNOW, WHY WOULD MIKE PENCE NOT ENDORSE HIM IF HE WAS SO FIT TO RUN?
WHY WOULD ALL THESE PEOPLE NOT ENDORSE HIM AFTER BEING IN THE ROOM WITH HIM FOR FOUR YEARS?
>> WELL, I THINK ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE INCLUDING A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT I ADMIRE AND STILL CONTINUE TO CONSIDER FRIENDS MISREAD WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016, MISREAD WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF BEING TOLD WHO THEY HAVE TO VOTE FOR BY NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, D.C. ELITES.
WE'VE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
THEY WANT SOMEONE WHO'S GOING TO FIGHT FOR THEM FOR THE ISSUES.
AND YEAH, DONALD TRUMP SAYS THINGS IN A DIFFERENT STYLE THAN PEOPLE ARE USED TO, BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO IT BECAUSE THEY WANT A FIGHTER.
AND SO THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE.
THAT'S WHY YOU SEE DONALD TRUMP BASICALLY STEAM ROLLING THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION OVER ALL OF THOSE MORE EXPERIENCED AND BASICALLY CAREER POLITICIANS.
THAT'S WHY YOU STILL SEE SO MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR HIM.
AND RIGHT NOW THAT'S WHY YOU SEE HIM WINNING BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE HURTING, THEY'RE STRUGGLING.
THEY WANT SOMEONE TO DEAL WITH IT, AND THEY KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THE GUY TO DO IT, NOT THE GUY WHO GOT US INTO THIS PROBLEM IN JOE BIDEN.
IT'S HIS FAULT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT AN ISSUE AND TALKING ABOUT HURTING AND STRUGGLING.
MANY, MANY MILLIONS OF WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE SEEN THEIR FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS OVERTURNED BY THEMOTOR, AND DONALD TRUMP HE BRAGS ABOUT IT.
HE SAYS, LOOK, I PUT IN THESE THREE FINE CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES, AND THEY OVERTURNED ROE v. WADE, AND THERE'S A BIG DILEMMA FOR SO MANY, MANY WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THIS.
I WANT TO PLAY THE ABORTION EXCHANGE BETWEEN THE TWO CANDIDATES DURING THE DEBATE.
>> A DOCTOR SHOULD BE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS.
THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE RUN.
THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO, AND IF I'M ELECTED I'M GOING TO RESTORE ROE v. WADE.
>> SO THAT MEANS HE CAN TAKE THE LIFE OF THE BABY IN THE NINTH MONTH AND EVEN AFTER BIRTH -- BECAUSE SOME STATES DEMOCRAT RUN TAKE IT AFTER BIRTH.
AGAIN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA PUT THE BABY DOWN, THEN WE DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH IT.
SO HE'S WILLING TO, AS WE SAY, RIP THE BABY OUT OF THE WOMB IN THE NINTH MONTH AND KILL THE BABY.
>> MARC, BECAUSE THAT IS SUCH OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE I'M JUST GOING TO MAKE A FACT CHECK HERE.
ABORTIONS AFTER 21 WEEKS ARE UNCOMMON AND REPRESENT 1% OF ALL ABORTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.
THE IDEA OF KILLING BABIES AFTER BIRTH IS -- IS JUST SO OFFENSIVE.
NONETHELESS, THERE IS A MAJOR ABORTION CONUNDRUM IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW, AND IN THE MID-TERMS YOU COULD SEE THAT DEMOCRATS OR WOMEN VOTED ON THIS CASE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS UPCOMING ELECTION ON THIS ISSUE?
>> WELL, I THINK THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS NO MATTER WHO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS, IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS ISSUE BECAUSE CONGRESS IS NEVER GOING TO PASS ANYTHING.
DEMOCRATS CAN'T GET THEIR 40 WEEKS TAXPAYER FUNDED ABORTION ON DEMAND BILL PASSED.
THEY TRIED, THEY FAILED.
REPUBLICANS CAN'T GET ANY KIND OF COMMON SENSE REASONABLE LIMITATIONS ON ABORTION BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE 60 VOTES IN THE SENATE.
AND WHAT ROE v. WADE, THE OVERTURNING OF ROE v. WADE DID WAS IT RESTORED DEMOCRACY BECAUSE NOW THE PEOPLE'S ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES ARE THE ONES WHO GET TO WEIGH IN ON THIS MATTER.
AND IF IT'S STATE BY STATE, WHICH IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW -- WE'RE SEEING SOME STATES THAT MAY GO TOO FAR TO THE RIGHT.
ABORTION TOURISM IS NOW OPEN FOR BUSINESS, AND THAT'S TOO FAR TO THE LEFT.
AND WHAT WE WILL SEE IS THE STATES COME TOGETHER IN A GENERAL CONSENSUS.
BUT I DO WANT TO CLARIFY ONE THING.
DONALD TRUMP WAS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, HE WOULD NOT SIGN A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN, AND HE SUPPORTS EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE, INCEST, AND THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER.
>> SO, SIMON, AGAIN, 40-WEEK ABORTION I MEAN IT'S ALL SO INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE THAT WE'LL JUST PUT THAT TO THE SIDE.
BUT WHY -- OR DO YOU THINK BIDEN SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN?
AND WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN -- AND, YOU KNOW, WILL IT PLAY FOR HIM, DO YOU THINK, IN THIS ELECTION?
>> THAT WAS ACTUALLY A STRONG PART OF THE DEBATE FOR JOE BIDEN LAST NIGHT, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS JUST CLEAR -- WHAT'S TRUE BECAUSE A LOT OF WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID ABOUT THIS LAST NIGHT WAS NOT TRUE.
AND HE SOUNDED IN THIS SECTION IN PARTICULAR LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC, FRANKLY.
IS THAT HE -- WHAT IS TRUE IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR STRIPPING THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AWAY FROM TENS OF MILLIONS OF WOMEN IN AMERICA WHO NOW HAVE LESS RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS THAN WOMEN DO IN PLACES LIKE MEXICO AND BRAZIL AND PLACES ALL OVER THE WORLD.
AND WHAT IT'S DOING IS THAT IT'S PUTTING THE LIFE OF PREGNANT MOTHERS IN JEOPARDY IN THE UNITED STATES.
IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY THING THAT HAS ALTERED AMERICAN POLITICS.
I MEAN SINCE DOBBS HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO WHEN ROE WAS ENDED BY THE SUPREME COURT, DEMOCRATS HAVE CONTINUALLY OVERHPERFORMED IN ELECTION AFTER ELECTION.
NOT JUST IN 2022 BUT IN 2023 AND 2024, AND REPUBLICANS HAVE STRUGGLED.
AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE THIS ISSUE IS A MARKER OF EXTREMISM FOR THE REPUBLICANS, AND DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO PRESENT HIS NEW STATES RIGHTS POSITION AS SOMETHING THAT'S MODERATE OR CONSENSUAL, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY A REINFORCEMENT OF HIS FUNDAMENTAL EXTREMISM.
I MEAN IF HE'S OKAY WITH STATES LIKE IDAHO THAT HAVE NO EXCEPTIONS, JAIL TIME FOR DOCTORS AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, PENALTIES FOR PARENTS WHO BRING THEIR MINORS ACROSS BORDERS, IF HE'S OKAY WITH IDAHO ANYWHERE, THEN HE'S OKAY WITH IT EVERYWHERE.
AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE IS CONFIRMED IN RECENT MONTHS THAT HE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ABORTION EXTREMIST IN THE UNITED STATES.
AND SO I DO THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY MATERIAL ISSUE IN THE ELECTION.
AND VIRTUALLY EVERY ELECTION THAT HAS BEEN CONTESTED SINCE DOBBS HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO, REPUBLICANS HAVE UNDERPERFORMED, WE'VE OVERPERFORMED.
I STILL THINK THAT'S THE LIKELY OUTCOME IN THIS ELECTION IN NOVEMBER.
>> ALL RIGHT, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO DISCUSS.
WE DON'T HAVE TIME RIGHT NOW, BUT WE WILL KEEP COMING BACK TO YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
SIMON ROSENBERG FOR BIDEN, AND MARC LOTTER FOR TRUMP, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NOW, OF COURSE AMERICA'S ADVERSARIES AS WELL AS ITS ALLIES ARE TAKING STOCK OF LAST NIGHT'S PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE OR AT LEAST THE AMERICAN ELECTION BECAUSE IT MATTERS TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AS WELL INCLUDING TO IRAN, WHERE TODAY IS ELECTION DAY THERE.
THE REGIME HAS URGED PEOPLE TO VOTE AS A WAY OF LEGITIMIZING ITS RULE.
NOW, IN THIS SNAP POLL, WHICH COMES JUST A MONTH AFTER THE HARD LINE PRESIDENT RAISI DIED IN A HELICOPTER CRASH, FOUR CANDIDATES WHO ARE REMAINING ON THE BALLOT ALL ARE MEN, MILLIONS OF IRANIANS, THOUGH, HAVE BEEN EXPECTED TO BOYCOTT THE ELECTION.
THIS ILLUSION WITH VIOLENT CRACK DOWNS ON PROTESTS AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND THEIR OWN DIRE SITUATION IS FOREFRONT.
FOR MORE ANALYSIS LET'S BRING IN THE "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER WHO HAS COVERED IRAN FOR DECADES.
SHE'S AN IRAN EXPERT AND JOINS ME FROM NEW YORK.
LET ME JUST START BY ASKING YOU BECAUSE I KNOW THE TRUMP DEBATE AND BIDEN DEBATE WENT AROUND THE WORLD, AND IRANIANS DO -- NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE, BUT THE REGIME IS CONSTANTLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO'S GOING TO BE PRESIDENT AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO IN TERMS OF THEIR POLICIES IN THE LIGHT OF IT.
GIVE US A LITTLE BIT OF HOW MUCH THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY MATTERS EVEN IN A PLACE LIKE IRAN.
>> HI, CHRISTIANE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION FACTORS PRETTY LARGELY.
MOST OF THE FAMILIES KEPT SAYING THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. IS GOING TO BE TRUMP AND I'M THE BEST PERSON TO DEAL WITH IT.
SO THERE WAS KIND OF A RIVALRY AND A FORGONE CONCLUSION IN THEIR MINDS THAT TRUMP IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT, AND IRAN NEEDS TO HAVE SORT OF A STRONG CONSERVATIVE OR ON THE REFORMIST SIDE, A REFORMIST PRESIDENT.
SO, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS REALLY -- HAD A PRESENCE IN THE IRANIAN DEBATES AND ELECTION RALLIES.
>> AND WHAT ABOUT THE ACTUAL DOMESTIC SITUATION IN IRAN?
YOU KNOW, IT WAS INTERESTING TO SEE THAT ACCORDING TO THE WAY THEIR REPORTING IT FROM THERE, THERE WAS ONE REFORM CANDIDATE WHO WAS APPROVED.
THE REST WAS CONSERVATIVES, BUT THE REFORM CANDIDATE WAS CONSIDERED TO BE THE FRONT-RUNNER.
DO YOU BUY THAT?
>> WELL, RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, VOTING STARTED THIS MORNING IN IRAN.
IT'S 7:00 OR 8:00 IN THE EVENING RIGHT NOW, AND THE ESTIMATE IS TURN OUT IS ABOUT 25% SO REALLY LOW EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A REFORMIST CANDIDATE AS YOU MENTIONED WHEN YOU WERE GIVING A SUMMARY OF THE SITUATION IN IRAN.
THERE'S A WIDESPREAD VOTER APATHY.
I THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT QUALIFIED A REFORMIST CANDIDATE THIS TIME TO MAKE THE ELECTION APPEAR MORE COMPETITIVE, TO BRING IN THE REFORM FACTION, WHICH IT BOYCOTTED THE PARLIAMENT ELECTIONS, AND TRY TO INCITE PEOPLE TO COME OUT AND VOTE.
BUT IN PRACTICE WE'RE SEEING A MAJORITY OF IRANIANS, IF WE'RE GOING BY WHAT THE TURNOUT HAS BEEN IS SAYING NO TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, AND THERE'S A LOT OF SORT OF DISILLUSIONMENT THAT REALLY CHANGE CAN COME THROUGH THE BALLOT BOX.
IRANIANS HAVE GONE THROUGH MANY PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
YOU AND I HAVE BEEN ON THE GROUND IN PREVIOUS ELECTION WHERE THEY HAVE HOPE FOR CHANGE.
THEY CAME OUT AND VOTED AND NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED.
AND WE'RE SEEING THAT REFLECTION IN THE POLLS TODAY, THAT EVEN THE REFORMIST CANDIDATE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO REALLY RALLY THE CROWDS.
>> AND YOU KNOW BECAUSE BACK IN -- WAS IT IN MARCH WHEN THEY WENT TO THE LOCAL ELECTIONS, THERE WAS A RECORD LOW.
IT WAS 41%.
IF YOUR FIGURE OF 25% HOLDS NOW, THAT IS CATASTROPHIC, AND THE -- YOU KNOW, THE SUPREME LEADER URGED THEM TO VOTE, URGED THEM TO SHOW THAT THE REPUBLIC HAS LEGITIMACY.
I'M GOING TO JUST TELL YOU -- ASK YOU TO STANDBY FOR A SECOND BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE OUR CORRESPONDENT IN IRAN WHO IS FRED PLEITGEN.
I WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT THE STATE OF PLAY AT THE BALLOT BOX.
FRED, SO TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SEEING.
YOU'RE STILL OUT THERE.
IS VOTING STILL GOING ON?
>> HI THERE, CHRISTIANE.
WE ARE STILL OUT HERE.
WE ARE ACTUALLY IN A POLLING STATION THAT'S INSIDE A VERY FAMOUS SHRINE IN THE NORTH OF TEHRAN.
I CAN SHOW IT TO YOU RIGHT THERE.
THE SHRINE ON THE SQUARE OF COURSE AND BEEN HERE SO MANY TIMES.
THERE'S A POLLING STATION OUT HERE AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, AT THAT POLLING STATION THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY STILL FAIRLY DECENT LINES WE CAN SEE HERE.
WE CAN SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE LINING UP.
THIS IS THE MEN'S SECTION.
THERE'S A WOMEN'S SECTIONS ALSO NEXT DOOR.
TO US, CHRISTIANE, IT SEEMS MANY PEOPLE ARE COMING OUT AND VOTING A LITTLE LATER THAN MAYBE THEY DID, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION THAT WAS HELD EARLIER IN THE YEAR BECAUSE IT WAS EXTREMELY HOT TODAY THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF DAY, SO I THINK MANY PEOPLE WAITED FOR THINGS TO COOL DOWN.
WE ARE NOW PAST 9:00 P.M., GOING INTO 10:00 P.M. LOCAL TIME IN TEHRAN.
THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES HAVE ALREADY SAID THEY'VE EXTENDED THE VOTING UNTIL AT LEAST 10:00 P.M.
THEY MIGHT EXTEND IT A LITTLE BIT FURTHER AFTER THAT.
WHAT WE'VE SEEN -- AND WE'VE BEEN AT THREE POLLING STATIONS HERE IN TEHRAN AND VARIOUS PLACES.
WE'RE IN THE CENTRAL OF TEHRAN AND A LITTLE IN THE NORTH OF TEHRAN AS WELL.
I THINK FROM WHAT WE SAW THE PARTICIPATION FOR US FROM THE SMALL SAMPLE THAT WE HAD LOOKED AS THOUGH THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE PEOPLE GOING TO THE POLLS THAN FOR INSTANCE IN THE PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION A COUPLE MONTHS AGO.
THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN WE SPOKE TO, SPOKE VERY GOOD ENGLISH AND HE TOLD HE WAS A YOUNG VOTER, 28 YEARS OLD, AND BECAUSE THERE WAS A MODERATE ON THE BALLOT HE WAS COMING OUT TO VOTE.
AND HE BROUGHT HIS FRIEND AS WELL AND BECAUSE THERE WAS A MODERATE ON THE BALLOT, HE WANT TODAY COME AND CAST HIS BALLOT AS WELL.
AGAIN, THESE ARE VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZES.
THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT, AND WE'VE BEEN AROUND TEHRAN THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS AND CERTAINLY THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO TOLD US THEY WEREN'T GOING TO COME OUT AND VOTE AT ALL.
THE FACT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT POLITICAL STREAMS TO CHOOSE FROM NOW MAY HAVE MOBILIZED A FEW PEOPLE TO COME TO THE BALLOT BOXES.
OF COURSE, WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT TOMORROW WHEN WE FIND OUT WHAT EXACTLY THE TURNOUT HAS BEEN AND ALSO THE RESULTS, CHRISTIANE.
>> FRED, BEFORE I LET EYOU GO BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN THERE FOR A FEW DAYS, WHAT ARE PEOPLE SAYING ABOUT THEIR SENSE SOF DISSATISFACTION OR SATISFACTION?
WHAT ARE THEY SAYING ARE THE MAIN ISSUES?
>> SO THE MAIN ISSUES I WOULD SUM UP INTO TWO MAIN ISSUES AND THEY'RE INTERTWINED, AND IT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN IN IRAN IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
ONE OF THEM IS ECONOMIC AND THE OTHER IS FOREIGN POLICY, WHERE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE FOR THEM.
AS FAR AS THE ECONOMY IS CONCERNED, WE KNOW INFLATION IS HIGH.
WE KNOW THAT UNEMPLOYMENT IS VERY HIGH.
PRICES HAVE BEEN RISING, SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF EBRAHIM RAISI TO COME TO TERMS WITH THAT AND ANY VOTER TO COME TO TERMS WITH THAT.
THAT'S WHAT VOTERS TELL US FOR THEM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, TO HAVE A CHANCE ON THE JOB MARKET, ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET WELL-PAID JOBS AND THEN FOR THINGS TO BECOME MORE AFFORDABLE, FOR GOODS TO BECOME MORE AFFORDABLE.
NOW, OF COURSE ALL OF THAT AS YOU KNOW IS VERY MUCH INTERTWINED WITH THE FOREIGN POLICY SITUATION, WHERE, OF COURSE, SANCTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN LEVIED BY THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES A BIG ISSUE FOR THE ECONOMY HERE IN IRAN.
THE MODERATE CANDIDATE MASOUD SAYS HE WANTS A BETTER RELATIONSHIP.
AND HARD LINERS SAID THEY WANT TO CONTINUE THE POLICY OF EBRAH EBRAHIM RAISI.
>> FRED, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I'M GOING TO PUT SOME OF THAT.
THE ISSUE, AND IT WAS GREAT TO GET THAT REPORT FROM THE GROUND AND REALLY GOES TO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE SAY DO ELECTIONS IN IRAN EVEN MATTER?
AND ON THE ISSUE OF THE FOREIGN POLICY, YOU KNOW, THE SUPPORT FOR MILITANTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU KNOW, THE -- THE NUCLEAR BRINKSMANSHIP THAT NOW SEEMS TO BE CONTINUED.
WHAT'S YOUR ANALYSIS ON THAT?
>> I THINK THAT, AS YOU KNOW, HE STATES POLICIES SUCH AS THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM, WHATEVER CONCESSIONS IRAN MAKES, THE ISSUE OF THE REGIONAL POLICIES REGARDING ISRAEL AND THE SORT OF FORWARD DEFENSE THAT IRAN HAS CREATED FOR ITSELF BY SUPPORTING AN ARMY AND PONDING THESE MILITANT GROUPS AROUND THE REGION, THESE ARE ALL SORT OF STATE POLICIES, RIGHT?
THEY'RE MOSTLY DETERMINED BY AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI THE SUPREME LEADER AND GUARDS WHEN IT COMES TO THESE REGIONAL MILITANT GROUPS.
HOWEVER, WE'VE SEEN AND PRECEDENT SHOWS US THAT DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS IN IRAN MAKE A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENCE.
THEY SET THE DOMESTIC AGENDA, AND THEY DO HAVE INFLUENCE OVER SOME FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES.
WE SAW THAT, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT OF PRESIDENT ROHANI MANAGED TO NEGOTIATE AND SIGN A NUCLEAR DEAL WITH WESTERN POWERS AND HAD MORE OF AN OPEN APPROACH, AND SOCIAL THINGS WERE A LITTLE BIT EASED UP INCLUDING ENFORCEMENT OF HIJAB.
AND THEN WHEN PRESIDENT RAISI CAME WE SAW WHEN CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT COMES, THERE'S MORE OF A DEFIANT ATTITUDE.
THERE'S MORE THIS ATTITUDE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT PRESIDENT RAISI SORT OF TURNED AWAY FROM THE WEST AND PIVOTED IRAN TOWARDS RUSSIA AND CHINA AND REALLY STRENGTHENED THOSE TIES SELLING DRONES TO RUSSIA FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE, SELLING OIL AT A DISCOUNTED RATE TO CHINA.
SO THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY THAT THE ADMINISTRATION REALLY TAKES SOME THINGS FORWARD TO SOME EXTENT.
>> SO NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ALL IMPORTANT ISSUE DOMESTICALLY OF THE ACTUAL PEOPLE IN THEIR RIGHTS AND THEIR FRUSTRATION AND THEIR HARDSHIP.
AND WHAT ABOUT THE WOMEN'S VOTE?
IT WAS INTERESTING THAT THE CANDIDATES, WHETHER THEY MEANT IT OR NOT, FELT FORCED TO PUT WOMEN'S ISSUES AT THE FOREFRONT.
IS THAT GOING TO MAKE A BLIND BIT OF DIFFERENCE?
>> WELL, I THINK THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, CAMPAIGN ISSUES.
I THINK THE WOMEN OF IRAN HAVE VERY COURAGEOUSLY BEEN DEFYING THE RULE OF MANDATORY HIJAB, THE WOMEN WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN MANDATORY HIJAB.
SINCE THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING THIS AND STRUGGLING TO SORT OF DEFINE THEIR OWN TERMS FOR THE PAST 45 YEARS.
BUT POST THE DEATH OF AMINY AND THE WOMEN FREEDOM LIFE MOVEMENT AND UP RISING THAT SPRANG IN 2022 WOMEN HAVE BEEN TAKING OFF THEIR HIJAB.
THEY'VE BEEN WEARING, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER CLOTHES THAT THEY WANT IN THE STREET, AND THE GOVERNMENT'S BEEN CRACKING DOWN ON THEM.
AND THIS ISSUE REALLY SURFACED TO ONE OF THE TOP ISSUES OF THE DEBATES OR EVEN THE CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES WERE FORCED OR WERE SAYING THAT WE DON'T -- WE DON'T AGREE WITH THE HEAVY-HANDED CRACKDOWNS.
WE DON'T AGREE WITH VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.
AND I THINK THAT WOMENS RIGHTS ACTIVISTS I SPOKE TO IN IRAN SAID THIS SHOWS OUR MOVEMENT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T IGNORE US ANYMORE.
NOW, WHETHER THIS RHETORIC IS GOING TO TRANSLATE INTO ANY CHANGE OF POLICY, WE HAVE TO SEE.
IT'S UNLIKELY, BUT AT LEAST THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WOMEN'S STRUGGLE IS REAL, THAT THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT IS TOO BIG TO IGNORE, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, IRANIAN WOMEN ARE NOT GOING TO STAND DOWN.
AND THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING TO SEE PLAYING OUT THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN THESE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.
>> AND IN OUR FINAL MINUTE, BACK TO FOREIGN POLICY AND PARTLY FOLLOWING UP ON SOME OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THERE IS SORT OF AN ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-WESTERN AXIS THAT HAS DEVELOPED OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.
IT'S RUSSIA, IT'S CHINA, IT'S NORTH KOREA, AND IT'S IRAN.
HOW DO YOU SEE THAT, YOU'RE A U.N.
CORRESPONDENT AS WELL.
YOU'RE RIGHT THERE REPORTING FROM ALL THE WORLD LEADERS AND THEIR REPRESENTATIVES.
HOW DO YOU SEE THAT PLAYING OUT?
>> I THINK IN TERMS OF WHERE IRAN STANDS, THEY REALLY THOUGHT THAT AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP EXITED THE NUCLEAR DEAL AND SORT OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WEREN'T ABLE TO SORT OF STAND -- GIVE IRAN WHAT IT -- ITS TERMS, SANCTIONS AND WHAT NOT.
I THINK THE POLICY IN IRAN WAS WE CAN'T REALLY TRUST THE WEST.
WE CAN'T TRUST THE U.S. AND WE CAN'T TRUST EUROPE, SO WE'RE GOING TO GO TO WHAT THEY THINK ARE MORE RELIABLE PARTNERS -- RUSSIA AND CHINA.
WITH RUSSIA THEY FORCED VERY CLOSE SECURITY AND MILITARY TIES, AND WITH CHINA ECONOMIC TIES.
YOU KNOW, IRAN WAS INVITED TO BE A MEMBER OF BRICS, THE BRICS ALLIANCE.
THEY'RE SEEING THEIR ROLE MORE IN THE GLOBAL CAMP THAT IS STANDING AGAINST THE WEST, AND THEY THINK THAT'S A SAFER PLACE FOR THEM TO BE FOR SURVIVAL AND FOR -- FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS.
>> "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I WISH WE HAD TIME FOR MORE.
ALWAYS FASCINATING.
THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHT.
>>> MORE THAN HALF THE WORLD'S POPULATION IS VOTING THIS YEAR IN ELECTIONS THAT OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES ARE DESIGNED TO DEEPEN DIVISION AND DISTRUST.
AND SO BACK IN 2020 AUTHOR AND BLOOMBERG COLUMNIST FRANCIS S. BARRY SETOUT TO PROVE THERE'S MORE THAT UNITES US THAN DIVIDES US.
HIS METHOD, BUYING AN RV AND MAKING HIS WAY ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE FROM EVERY WALK OF LIFE.
NOW BARRY JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK "BACK ROADS AND BETTER ANGELS, A JOURNEY INTO THE HEART OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY."
IN WHICH HE CHRONICLES HIS CROSS-COUNTRY JOURNEY TO BRIDGE THE PARTISAN DIVIDE.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND FRANK BARRY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO IN THE SUMMER OF 2020 YOU DECIDE YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE A ROAD TRIP I THINK STARTING IN TIMES SQUARE ALONG THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY.
FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME ABOUT THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY, AND THEN WE'LL GET TO WHY YOU DECIDED TO DO IT THAT SUMMER.
>> SURE, SO THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY IS THE FIRST ROAD THAT CONNECTED THE TWO COASTS TO THE COUNTRY, NEW YORK TO SAN FRANCISCO.
IT WAS DEDICATED IN 1913 AT A TIME WHEN IT WAS EASIER TO GET TO EUROPE BY STEAMER THAN IT WAS TO GET TO CALIFORNIA BY CAR.
THERE WERE VERY FEW ROADS.
IT WAS THE DAWN OF THE AUTOMOBILE AGE, AND A PIONEER OF THE AUTO INDUSTRY SAID IF WE BUILD MORE ROADS, PEOPLE WILL BUY MORE CARS.
>> YEAH, BUT WHY TAKE A ROAD TRIP?
I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE POINT?
>> SO WE WANTED TO GO OUT AND GET AWAY FROM THE 24-HOUR NEWS CYCLE AND SPEAK TO PEOPLE IN THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITIES ABOUT NATIONAL ISSUES BUT FROM A MUCH MORE PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, AND WE WANTED TO EXPLORE WHAT HOLDS THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.
SO AT A TIME WHEN THERE'S SO MUCH FOCUS ON THE DIVISIONS, WE WANTED TO ASK PEOPLE WHAT HOLDS AMERICA TOGETHER.
AND WHAT BETTER WAY TO DO IT THAN BY TRAVELING THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY AND CHANNELLING THE SPIRIT OF LINCOLN WHO MORE THAN ANYONE HELD THE COUNTRY TOGETHER DURING OUR TIME OF DEEPEST DIVISION.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT CHANNELLING THE SPIRIT OF LINCOLN.
TELL ME WHAT IS THAT SPIRIT OF LINCOLN?
YOU WRITE THAT'S AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT HE DID IS THE SPIRIT WITH WHICH HE DID IT.
>> I CALL IT PATRIOTIC PRAGMATISM.
IT'S A SPIRIT THAT PUTS COUNTRY OVER PARTY.
IT'S A SPIRIT THAT ARGUES WITH REASON AND UNDERSTANDING AS OPPOSED TO RAGE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.
IT'S A SPIRIT THAT SEEKS COMMON GROUND.
LINCOLN WAS NEVER AN ABSOLUTIST.
LINCOLN HATED MOBS.
HE BELIEVED IN THE RULE OF LAW.
THAT WAS AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE SEEMED SO ANGRY WITH EACH OTHER.
IT WAS THAT SPIRIT OF UNDERSTANDING.
AND EVEN HUMILITY, THERE ARE MANY POINTS IN LINCOLN'S CAREER WHERE NOTES OF HUMILITY CREEP INTO HIS OWN SPEECHES.
AND THAT IS SO IMPORTANT, RECOGNIZING THAT WE MAY NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS AND WE MAY NOT UNDERSTAND THEM AS PERFECTLY AS WE THINK WE SOMETIMES DO.
>> YOU DID IT IN 2020.
YOU HAD COVID AND YOU GOT AN ELECTION THAT FOLLOWED THE TRUMP-HILLARY CLINTON ELECTION BY FOUR YEARS, EVERYTHING.
WHY DID YOU PICK THAT MOMENT, AND WAS THAT SORT OF A TIME -- I MEAN WAS THAT SORT OF A WARPED PERIOD THAT WASN'T REALLY REPRESENTATIVE OF AMERICA?
>> IT WAS DEFINITELY A UNIQUE PERIOD.
AS YOU SAY THE PANDEMIC WAS GOING ON.
WE WERE TRAVELING IN THE SHADOW OF THE GEORGE FLOYD PROTEST.
WE LEFT NEW YORK ON SEPTEMBER 11th.
THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY BEGINS IN TIMES SQUARE.
WE LEFT ON SEPTEMBER 11th, WHICH IS A DAY MORE THAN ANY OTHER THAT UNITED THE COUNTRY, AND OUR GOAL WAS TO GET TO SAN FRANCISCO BY-ELECTION DAY, WHICH SHOULD BE A DAY THAT UNITES THE COUNTRY BUT OF COURSE IS DIVIDING US, SO IT WAS DEFINITELY A UNIQUE TIME.
BUT I THINK MANY OF THE THINGS THAT WE FOUND ON OUR TRIP HAVE ONLY BEEN HEIGHTENED SINCE THEN.
EVEN THOUGH THE PANDEMIC HAS RECEDED, ALL OF THE UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT WE EXPERIENCED IN 2020 I THINK WILL BE EVEN MORE INTENSE IN 2024.
>> YOU SAY WE, WE.
I KNOW FROM READING THE BOOK YOU MEAN IT'S YOU AND YOUR WIFE.
TELL ME ABOUT THE LOGISTICS OF THAT, AND WHAT DID SHE THINK WHEN YOU SAID, HEY, HONEY, WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO A RECREATIONAL VEHICLE AND JUST RIDE FOR MONTHS.
YOU'D NEVER DRIVEN AN RV BEFORE.
>> WE'D NEVER DRIVEN AN RV.
WE'D NEVER REALLY BEEN IN AN RV, AND SHE SAID WHAT YOU MIGHT THINK, WHICH IS THAT'S INSANE, WE AREN'T DOING THAT.
BUT WE TALKED ABOUT IT AND WE BEGAN DOING A LITTLE RESEARCH, AND SHE WARMED UP TO THE IDEA.
SHE'S ALWAYS GOT AN ADVENTUROUS SPIRIT, AND WE'VE BEEN CAMPING BEFORE BUT HAD NEVER BEEN RVING.
AND IN THE END IT WAS ANOTHER PANEDEMIC WE WERE SITTING AROUND EACH OTHER AND STARING AT EACH OTHER.
WE BOTH HAD THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL SO IT FELT LIKE THE RIGHT TIME.
>> YOU ASKED YOU SAID THE QUESTION WHEREVER YOU WENT, WHAT HOLDS THIS COUNTRY TOGETHER?
WELL, LET ME ASK YOU, WHAT DO YOU THINK HOLDS THIS COUNTRY TOGETHER?
>> WELL, THE ANSWERS I GOT WERE REAL VARIED.
SOME PEOPLE SAID THE CONSTITUTION.
SOME PEOPLE SAID LOVE OF FREEDOM.
SOME PEOPLE SAID LOVE OF PATRIOTISM.
LINCOLN FAMOUSLY SAID IT'S THE MORAL SENTIMENT AND THE DECLARATION THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE -- ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, AND I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH IN THAT.
BUT THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT HELP HOLDS US TOGETHER, AND THAT BECAME MORE AND MORE EVIDENT AS WE TRAVELED, AND THAT IS OUR WILLINGNESS TO ACCEPT ELECTION RESULTS AND THE WILLINGNESS OF CANDIDATES TO PLAY THE GRACIOUS LOSER AND TO ACCEPT WHAT RONALD REAGAN CALLED IN HIS INAUGURAL ADDRESS IN 1981 A MIRACLE, WHICH IS THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.
AND THAT UNDERLIES SO MUCH OF THE VALUES, LIBERTY AND DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM THAT WE HOLD DEAR AND THAT WE BELIEVE HOLD US TOGETHER.
NONE OF THAT CAN HOLD US TOGETHER WITHOUT OUR ACCEPTANCE OF ELECTION RESULTS.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE ACCEPTANCE OF ELECTION RESULTS AND THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER AS BEING THE CORE, WHAT HOLDS US TOGETHER.
AND YET YOU WERE DOWN -- I THINK YOU WERE DOWN IN NEW ORLEANS, MY HOMETOWN, ON INAUGURATION DAY WHEN JOE BIDEN TAKES OVER FROM DONALD TRUMP AND TRUMP'S NOT THERE ON INAUGURATION DAY.
AND JANUARY 6th HAS JUST HAPPENED, AND YOU'RE THERE IN FRONT OF GALLIER HALL TALKING TO PEOPLE.
WAS THERE A SENSE THAT AMERICA CHANGED?
>> NO, I THINK PEOPLE -- EVERYWHERE WE WENT PEOPLE WERE DEEPLY FRUSTRATED BY THE NATION'S DIVISIONS, BUT THERE WAS ALSO AN OPTIMISM THAT WE WOULD OVERCOME THEM.
AND I THINK THAT THE FACT THAT THE TRANSFER OF POWER TOOK PLACE, THAT BIDEN WAS INAUGURATED WAS ACTUALLY A REFLECTION THAT AMERICA IS IN MANY WAYS THE SAME, WHICH IS THAT WE OVERCAME THIS CRISIS.
THAT'S THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY.
CONFLICT OVER -- OVER WHO WE ARE AND HOW WE'RE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD AND THE VALUES THAT WE HOLD DEAR.
AND IT'S NOT OFTEN PRETTY.
WE FOUGHT A CIVIL WAR OVER IT, BUT OUR WILLINGNESS ORB OUR DETERMINATION, OUR FAITH IN DEMOCRACY IS WHAT HAS REALLY HELD US TOGETHER, AND I THINK THAT HUSBAND REMAINED TRUE DESPITE THE DIFFERING OPINIONS THAT REMAIN OVER 2020.
>> YEAH, I'M REMINDED OF HEMMINGWAY'S LINE, WOULDN'T IT BE PRETTY TO THINK SO.
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT NOW?
>> I DO, I DO.
AND I THINK EVEN PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN CONTINUE TO -- TO BELIEVE THAT -- THEY BELIEVE IT IN DEMOCRACY.
AND I'M NOT EXCUSING THEIR BELIEF THAT IN A STOLEN ELECTION.
THEY'RE WRONG, OF COURSE.
WE KNOW THAT.
BUT IT IS NEVERTHELESS IMPORTANT FOR OUR LEADERS TO -- TO RALLY PEOPLE AROUND THOSE SHARED VALUES IN ANY WHICH WAY YOU CAN.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT PRAGMATIC PATRIOTS.
WHAT ARE THEY, AND WHERE DO YOU FIND THEM?
>> EVERYWHERE WE WENT.
I'LL GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE TODAY RIGHT ALONG THE BORDER IN SOUTH EASTERN ARIZONA IN COCHISE COUNTY WITH THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE.
WE WERE WATCHING THE WALL GETTING BUILT.
THERE WERE CONSTRUCTION CRANES UP AND THE WORKMAN THERE CONSTRUCTING THE WALL, AND THE SHERIFF SAID I KNOW THE WALL IS NOT A PANACEA.
IT'S NOT GOING TO SOLVE EVERYTHING.
WE NEED CAMERAS.
WE NEED STAFFING, A BALANCED SECURITY PLAN, AND WE ALSO NEED, HE SAID, MORE IMMIGRANTS.
HE SAID WE NEED A BALANCED PROGRESSIVE PLAN, AND THAT WAS IN A CONSERVATIVE COUNTY IN SOUTH EASTERN ARIZONA, AND I THINK MOST AMERICANS WOULD AGREE WITH HIM.
WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING OVER IMMIGRATION FOR 20 YEARS.
WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET THERE, AND SO MUCH OF IT HAS FOCUSED ON THE WALL.
BUT I THINK THERE'S A -- IF YOU SPOKE WITH PEOPLE AND GET BENEATH THE POLLING AROUND THE WALL, PEOPLE WOULD AGREE, YEAH, WE DO NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS.
WE NEED MORE LEGAL PATHWAYS FOR PEOPLE TO COME HERE, AND WE ALSO NEED A SECURE BORDER.
>> WHY ISN'T OUR SYSTEM DOESN'T GET US TO WHAT A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WOULD THINK WOULD BE A COMMON SENSE SOLUTION?
>> IN A LOT OF WAYS IT REWARDS EXTREMISM.
A LOT OF PEOPLE RUN TO THE POLLS TO THE FAR RIGHT OR THE FAR LEFT.
I VISIT LINCOLN, NEBRASKA, WHERE IT'S THE ONLY STATE IN THE COUNTRY THAT HAS A NONPARTISAN ELECTION SYSTEM, IF YOU'RE RUNNING FOR OFFICE THE PRIMARY MEANS YOU DON'T JUST KNOCK ON THE DOORS OF PRIMARY AND REPUBLICANS, YOU KNOCK ON EVERYONE'S DOOR BECAUSE INDEPENDENTS ARE ABLE TO VOTE.
THAT CREATES A MUCH DIFFERENT DYNAMIC FOR CANDIDATES.
THEY'VE GOT TO LISTEN TO EVERYBODY, THEY'VE GOT TO SEEK EVERYBODY'S VOTE, AND IT HAS CREATED A MORE FUNCTIONAL LEM S LACHER IN NEBRASKA THAN MOST OTHER STATES HAVE, AND THERE'S NO REASON WE CAN'T BRING THAT TO OTHER STATES AND CONGRESS.
AND SAY THAT IN THE BOOK PEOPLE, CYNICS WE GET THE GOVERNMENT WE DESERVE, AND I THINK WE GET THE GOVERNMENT WE DESIGN, AND WE'VE DESIGNED IT FOR DYSFUNCTION.
>> THERE'S A GUY NAMED CHRIS GIBBS.
TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED FROM HIM.
>> SURE.
CHRIS GIBBS IS A FARMER IN OHIO, A CATTLE FARMER AND HE'S SPENT HIS LIFE IN LOCAL REPUBLICAN PARTY POLITICS.
HE VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 2016, AND OVER THE COURSE OF THE ADMINISTRATION GREW DISILLUSIONED WITH TRUMP, SOMEWHAT OVER AGRICULTURAL TARIFFS AND SOMEWHAT OVER POLICY.
SO HE DECIDED TO LEAVE THE PARTY AND BECOME AN INDEPENDENT.
AND IN DOING THAT, SOMETHING HAPPENED HE WASN'T EXPECTING, WHICH IS HE LOST ALL HIS FRIENDS, AND THAT WAS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THESE RELATIONSHIPS THAT HE HAD BUILT OVER A LIFETIME IN LOCAL POLITICS DISAPPEARED.
AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I L HEARD ECHOES FROM THAT FROM OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL, AND IT'S A REALLY DISHEARTENING -- IT'S A REALLY DISHEARTENING EXPERIENCE TO SEE RELATIONSHIPS DISAPPEAR OVER POLITICS.
>> ONE OF THE PLACES YOU VISITED, TOO, WAS A MOSQUE, AMERICA'S FIRST MOSQUE IS RIGHT THERE ALONG LINCOLN HIGHWAY.
YOU INTERVIEWED, AND HE TOLD ME SOMETHING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME.
HE SAID IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE SEPTEMBER 11th ATTACKS, HE SAID SUDDENLY WE STARTED HAVING PHONE CALLS, LETTERS, EVEN BOUQUET OF FLOWERS WERE LEFT AT THE STEPS, BASKETS OF FOOD SAYING WE KNOW YOU, YOU ARE NOT LIKE THEM.
HOWEVER, ALSO THINGS CHANGED A BIT.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
>> SO HE SPOKE VERY POSITIVELY ABOUT THE POST-9/11 EXPERIENCE AND HOW THE COMMUNITY RALLIED AROUND HIM AND THE MEMBERS OF THE MOSQUE AND HOW MUCH THAT MEANT TO THEM, BUT IT BEGAN TO EVAPORATE DURING THE TRUMP YEARS, HE SAID.
AND HE WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO NOT BE PARTISAN ABOUT IT.
HE SAID MANY MUSLIMS ARE REPUBLICANS.
BUT WHAT -- WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS DOING WAS DEMONIZING MUSLIMS IN A WAY THAT WAS INFLAMING PEOPLE TO ISSUE THREATS AND TO OSTRACIZE THE COMMUNITY IN A WAY THAT THEY HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED.
IN A SENSE IT WAS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT PRESIDENT BUSH DID AFTER 9/11, WHICH WAS TO DEFEND ISLAM AS A RELIGION OF PEACE.
AND I'D HEARD SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR FROM THE FIRST MUSLIM WOMAN TO BE ELECTED MAYOR OF ANY TOWN IN AMERICA IN NEW JERSEY, AND SHE DESCRIBED A VERY SIMILAR POST-9/11 EXPERIENCE.
AND THEN WHEN HE RAN FOR OFFICE ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AGO SHE ENCOUNTERED JUST A TORRENT OF ISLAMAPHOBIA, AND IT WAS VERY DISHEARTENING FOR HER TO EXPERIENCE.
BUT SHE RECOGNIZED THAT IT HAD BEEN BUILT-UP OVER TIME, AND THAT IT WAS BEING INFLAMED AND HEIGHTENED BY TRUMP AND WHAT HE WAS EMPOWERING OTHER PEOPLE TO SAY AND DO.
>> THE DIVISIONS YOU SAW IN AMERICA ARE NOT JUST DOMESTIC IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE'RE SEEING THEM AROUND THE WESTERN WORLD IN PARTICULAR, EVEN WITH THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS RECENTLY.
TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THIS P POPULIST RESENTMENT WE FEEL IN AMERICA IS IT RELATED TO IMMIGRATION, OR IS IT AN ECONOMIC ISSUE, OR A MISTRUST OF THE ELITES?
TO WHAT COMBINATION IS IT?
>> I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF ALL OF THAT, AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT NEW.
WE'VE HAD WAVES OF XENOPHOBIC SENTIMENT IN THIS COUNTRY MANY TIMES IN THE PAST, AND IT WAS CERTAINLY THE CASE IN LINCOLN'S DAY AS WELL.
AND SO WE HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS BEFORE, AND WHAT I TRY TO DO IN THE BOOK IS TO DRAW UPON HOW WE GOT THROUGH THOSE TIMES AND HOW WE OVERCAME THEM AND HOW WE DIDN'T SUCCUMB TO XENOPHOBIA.
THE IRISH AND THE GERMANS AND ITALIANS AND CATHOLICS ALL FACED A WAVE OF THIS.
I THINK THAT'S A REALLY PART OF THE AMERICAN STORY AND PART OF THE AMERICAN SUCCESS STORY IS ACCEPTANCE AND ASSIMILATION.
AND IT'S A STORY THAT WE NEED TO REMIND OURSELVES OF THAT IT'S PART OF WHO WE ARE AS WE LOOK AT THIS LATEST WAVE OF IMMIGRANTS AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE COMING TO THE BORDER AND FROM ALL DIFFERENT PLACES.
>> SO FOUR YEARS AGO YOU WERE ON THE ROAD, AND THERE WAS A TRUMP VERSUS BIDEN ELECTION.
NOW WE'RE ENTERING THE SUMMER, A TRUMP VERSUS BIDEN ELECTION.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE STAKES, AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IS THERE'S NOTHING MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE MAINTENANCE OF DEMOCRACY THAN THE SENSE THAT THE NATION IS DOOMED UNLESS AN ELECTION GOES A PARTICULAR WAY.
WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE STAKES IN THIS ELECTION, AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE WAY THAT WE CAN REMAIN UNIFIED GOING THROUGH ELECTIONS LIKE THIS?
>> I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE SURVIVED SO MUCH AS A COUNTRY.
LINCOLN HAD THIS PHRASE.
HE CRITICIZED SOUTHERNERS WHO THREATENED TO RULE OR RUIN THE COUNTRY.
AND I THINK YOU CAN HEAR A LOT OF THE ECHO OF THAT SENSE OF RULE OR RUIN IN SOME OF TRUMP'S COMMENTS, THAT THE COUNTRY WILL NOT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF -- OF JOE BIDEN.
I THINK THERE'S ENORMOUS RESILIENCE IN THE COUNTRY'S VALUES.
>> WELL, LET ME SAY THAT DON'T YOU THINK IT GOES THE OTHER WAY.
PEOPLE SAY THE DEMOCRATS WOULD NEVER SURVIVE FOUR YEARS OF TRUMP.
>> YEAH, I DO.
I DO THINK THERE'S GREATER RESILIENCE THAN DEMOCRATS GIVE THE COUNTRY CREDIT FOR.
I THINK THAT IS TRUE.
THE DANGER IS THAT WHEN WE WERE TRAVELING FOUR YEARS AGO, JANUARY 6th AND STOP THE STEAL HADN'T HAPPENED, AND NOW IT HAS.
AND THAT IS A -- THAT IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF -- OF CONFLICT THAN WE'VE SEEN IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN MANY YEARS.
SO -- BUT I DO AGREE THAT THERE'S ENORMOUS RESILIENCE IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND IN THEIR FAITH AND IN THESE VALUES, AND I THINK THAT WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE CASE, AND THE MORE THAT LEADERS CAN APPEAL TO THAT, I THINK THE MORE ATTRACTIVE THEY WILL BE AS A CANDIDATE, AND I KNOW THAT HAS NOT BEEN TRUMP'S STRATEGY THUS FAR.
BUT I THINK HE WOULD BE -- THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE MY POLITICAL ADVICE, BUT I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO BE GAINED FROM BOTH CANDIDATES IN APPEALING TO THAT SENTIMENT.
>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE CANDIDATES CAN DO, BUT YOU'VE BEEN ACROSS AMERICA.
WHAT DO YOU THINK EACH OF US CAN DO EVERY MORNING WHEN WE WAKE UP TO SAY LET'S FIGURE OUT A WAY TO HEAL THESE DIVISIONS THAT OUR POLITICIANS, OUR MEDIA, OTHER THINGS KEEP CREATING IN OUR SOCIETY?
>> WELL, IN OUR OWN LITTLE WAYS, IN OUR COMMUNITIES THERE'S LOTS OF THINGS WE CAN DO.
I SPOKE WITH A WOMAN IN SOUTHBEND, INDIANA, A PRO-CHOICE VOLUNTEER.
AND SHE TALKED ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO OPEN THE CLINIC AND HOW MUCH OPPOSITION THEY FACED FROM LOCAL RESIDENTS.
BUT INSTEAD OF BEING ANGRY AT THEM, SHE DECIDED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, WHICH WAS TO INVITE SOME OF OF THE OPPONENTS TO HER HOME FOR A CONVERSATION, AND SHE THOUGHT THIS MIGHT CREATE SOME COMMON GROUND.
TURNS OUT, IT DIDN'T.
THEY WERE BOTH UNALTERRIBLY OPPOSED TO THE OTHER'S POSITION, BUT SHE CONCLUDED YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENED AND WE FOUND WE LIKED EACH OTHER AND WE BEGAN A RELATIONSHIP.
AND SHE SAID THE LESSON OUT OF THAT EXPERIENCE WAS WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PRIORITIZE THE RELATIONSHIP OVER THE POLITICS, AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT EACH OF US CAN DO IN OUR OWN LIVES IS TO REMEMBER THAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PARTICULAR POLITICAL ISSUE THAT WE'RE ARGUING ABOUT.
>> FRANK BARRY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> AND FINALLY, LAST NIGHT WE SHOWED YOU THE ACTS OF RESISTANCE THAT CAN TAKE PLACE EVERYWHERE.
AS LONDON BALLET STUDENTS TWIRLED ALONG THE THAMES IN THE NAME OF CLIMATE ACTION.
TONIGHT ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST CELEBRATED BALLERINAS IS ALSO USING DANCE TO MAKE A STAND.
AT 61 YEARS OLD ALESANNDRA FERRY IS MAKING THE POINT AGE IS NO RESTRICTION, AND SHE'S GIVING HER POINT SHOES ONE LAST WHIRL AS SHE MAKES A RETURN TO THE STAGE AS VIRGINIA WOLF AT THE METROPOLITAN OPERA.
WOLF WORDS IS CELEBRATED BY THE AUTHOR'S LIFE AND WORK, AND FOR FERRY IT'S ABOUT DEFYING EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT THE FEMALE BODY CAN DO AT ANY AGE.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.