June 4, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> Translator: WE ARE WORKING IN COUNTLESS WAYS TO RETURN OUR HOSTAGES.

I THINK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME.

>> POLITICAL PRESSURE ON NETANYAHU RAMPS UP AS FOUR HOSTAGE FAMILIES FIND OUT THEIR LOVED ONES ARE DEAD.

SO WHAT'S HOLDING UP THE LONG-AWAITED DEAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS?

I SPEAK TO HAARETZ COLUMNIST ANSHEL PFEFFER.

>>> THEN -- ♪♪♪ THE WORLD'S LARGEST EXERCISE IN DEMOCRACY.

PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI LOOKS SET TO WIN A RARE THIRD TERM IN INDIA'S ELECTION.

BUT IT'S CLOSER THAN EXPECTED.

INDIAN JOURNALIST BARKHA DUTT JOINS ME TO DISCUSS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> MY FAMILY BELIEVED SOMETHING THAT THEY BELIEVE IS TRUE AND MORAL, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD JUST DESPISES THEM FOR IT.

>> FROM WHITE NATIONALISM TO ANTI-RACISM.

MICHEL MARTIN'S CONVERSATION WITH R. DEREK BLACK ABOUT THEIR NEW BOOK, "THE KLANSMAN'S SON."

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IN ISRAEL, ANY HOPES FOR A CEASE-FIRE DEAL APPEAR TO BE DWINDLING WITH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WALKING A POLITICAL TIGHT ROPE.

ON ONE HAND, HOSTAGE FAMILIES, OPPOSITION LEADERS, AND U.S. PRESIDENT BIDEN ALL PRESSURING THE ISRAELI LEADER NOT TO BACK AWAY FROM A DEAL WHILE, ON THE OTHER HAND, HARD-LINE CABINET MINISTERS ARE THREATENING TO RESIGN SHOULD HE ACCEPT A DIPLOMATIC RESOLUTION.

PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED FRIDAY THAT THE PLAN HAD COME FROM ISRAEL, AND YET AT THE SAME TIME, NETANYAHU IS VOWING TO CONTINUE THE WAR UNTIL HAMAS IS DESTROYED.

ALL OF THIS IS CREATING AN UNDERSTANDABLE AIR OF CONFUSION.

MEANTIME ON THE GROUND IN GAZA, THE DEATH TOLL HAS SURPASSED 36,400.

AND THE SITUATION FOR THOSE HELD CAPTIVE WORSENS.

ON MONDAY, THE FAMILIES OF FOUR HOSTAGES WERE INFORMED THAT THEIR LOVED ONES WERE DEAD.

HAIM -- THE IDF SAYS THEY WERE KILLED WHILE TOGETHER IN KHAN YOUNIS DURING, QUOTE, AN OPERATION THERE AGAINST HAMAS.

TO UNPACK ALL OF THIS, I'M JOINED BY HAARETZ COLUMNIST ANSHEL PFEFFER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, ANSHEL.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

LET'S BEGIN WITH THIS DEAL THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED, PRESENTED, SAYING THAT THIS WAS AN ISRAELI PROPOSAL.

NOW THERE'S BEEN CONFUSION GOING BACK AND FORTH AS TO HOW MUCH OF THAT PROPOSAL WAS INITIATED BY ISRAEL AS OPPOSED TO THE UNITED STATES.

NETANYAHU THEN SHORTLY REITERATING THAT HE WILL NOT STOP THIS WAR AND INSISTED ON TOTAL VICTORY.

YOUR COLLEAGUE AT HAARETZ SAID THAT BIDEN'S SPEECH, QUOTE, HAS SHOWN THE WORLD HOW BIG THE GAP IS BETWEEN THE NETANYAHU OF THE WAR CABINET AND THE NETANYAHU OF THE SECURITY CABINET.

WAS WHAT WE SAW FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN A SUCCESSFUL WAY TO FINALLY PUT BIBI IN A CORNER?

>> I THINK IT WAS.

I THINK THAT THE WAY THAT BIDEN PRESENTED IT, THE TIMING OF IT, THE WAY THAT HE BASICALLY DIDN'T ALLOW NETANYAHU TO ESCAPE ACKNOWLEDGING THE FACT THAT THIS WAS, INDEED, A PROPOSAL THAT CAME FROM NETANYAHU'S WAR CABINET -- AND LET'S BE CLEAR.

THIS IS NOT A DEAL.

THIS IS NOT AN AGREEMENT.

THIS IS JUST A PROPOSAL FOR NEGOTIATION.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE DETAILS HAVE TO BE HASHED OUT WITH HAMAS, AND HAMAS HAS SO FAR NOT RESPONDED OFFICIALLY.

WE'RE HEARING CONTRADICTING RESPONSES FROM VARIOUS HAMAS --.

SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS BASICALLY BIDING OUTING NETANYAHU.

THE ISRAELI WAR CABINET CHAIRED BY NETANYAHU PRESENTED A PROPOSAL WHICH ALSO CONTEMPLATES A CEASE-FIRE, A PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE DETAILS OF THIS ARE VERY HAZY, AND THIS IS SOMETHING COMING FROM THE WAR CABINET.

IT'S NOT COMING FROM THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT.

IN THE WIDER CABINET OF NETANYAHU, THERE ARE FAR-RIGHT POLITICIANS WHO HOLD NETANYAHU'S FATE, AND THEY CERTAINLY NOT SIGNED ON TO THIS PROPOSAL.

>> YEAH, AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THEY'VE THREATENED TO LEAVE THIS GOVERNMENT.

BUT YOU HAVE HEARD FROM OTHER OPPOSITION LEADERS WHO HAVE PROPOSED REPLACING THEM AND SUPPORTING KEEPING THIS GOVERNMENT ALIVE, AT LEAST FOR THE TIME BEING.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT IS A PROPOSAL THAT LAPID IS SERIOUS ABOUT OFFERING AND ONE THAT PERHAPS BIBI WOULD HAVE TO CONTEMPLATE ACCEPTING?

>> I THINK LAPID IS CERTAINLY SERIOUS ABOUT THAT.

LIKE MANY OTHER ISRAELI FIGURES, HE REALIZES THAT THE ONLY WAY SO SAVE AT LEAST SOME OF THE HOSTAGES -- AND AS WE KNOW, THE NUMBER OF HOSTAGES ALIVE IN GAZA ARE DWINDLING.

THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE THEM IS SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT WITH HAMAS.

IT MAY NOT BE A PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE.

IT WILL PROBABLY BE SOMETHING LESS PERMANENT, SOME KIND OF A TRUCE.

BUT THAT IS PROBABLY THE ONLY WAY OF GETTING SOME OF THE HOSTAGES OUT ALIVE, AND I THINK HE'S VERY SERIOUS WHEN HE SAYS NETANYAHU, WE'LL GIVE YOU POLITICAL COVER IF YOU NEED IT FOR THE DURATION OF THE TRUCE.

AND NETANYAHU HAS TO MAKE HIS CHOICE.

NETANYAHU CAN CAST THIS THROUGH THE KNESSET, THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT.

HE HAS THE MAJORITY TO DO SO.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE WILL LOSE HIS OWN PERSONAL MAJORITY, THE MAJORITY HE WON BACK IN NOVEMBER '22 IN THE LAST ELECTION.

AND FOR NETANYAHU, THE PROSPECT OF LOSING THAT MAJORITY IS SOMETHING THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO FACE.

HE FOUGHT SO HARD TO GET THE MAJORITY.

HE FOUGHT FIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGNS AND SPENT 18 MONTHS IN OPPOSITION UNTIL THAT MOMENT ARRIVED, AND NOW TO GIVE UP ON THAT FOR THE HOSTAGES' SAKE IS SOMETHING WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIM.

>> ANOTHER OPPOSITION LEADER AND OPPONENT OF NETANYAHU, BENNY GANTZ HAS GIVEN THE ULTIMATUM THAT BY JUNE 8th, IF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HASN'T PUT FORWARD A DAY-AFTER PLAN, THAT HE WOULD LEAVE GOVERNMENT.

THERE ARE MANY THEORIES AS TO WHY HE FELT PRESSURE TO DO SO AT THE TIME.

OBVIOUSLY HE HAS BEEN FIRM ALL ALONG THAT THE PRIORITY SHOULD BE THE HOSTAGES, FOR A DAY-AFTER PLAN.

BUT HE ALSO SAY HIS POLL NUMBERS INTERNALLY START TO DECLINE AS WELL.

DO YOU THINK WE WILL, IN FACT, SEE HIM LEAVE IF THERE IS NOT A CONCRETE PROPOSAL AS OF NEXT WEEK?

>> I THINK IF GANTZ FEELS THERE IS A CHANCE OF NETANYAHU GOING AHEAD WITH HIS PROPOSAL AND THERE'S A CHANCE THAT IT MATERIALIZES INTO AN AGREEMENT, I THINK GANTZ WILL POSTPONE HIS DEADLINE.

BUT WE HAVE FOUR OR FIVE MORE DAYS, AND AS YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING, WE'RE HEARING THIS BACK-AND-FORTH BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND JERUSALEM.

WHEN NETANYAHU IS SAYING, YES, THIS IS OUR PROPOSAL, BUT THE WAY THAT BIDEN PRESENTED IT WAS INCOMPLETE OR INACCURATE, AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF DETAILS IN IT WHICH ARE NOT EXACTLY AS BIDEN HAS SAID.

AND THIS IS WHERE WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE NETANYAHU STARTING TO BACKTRACK TO KEEP HIS OPTIONS OPEN, TRYING TO SAVE HIS MAJORITY.

I THINK IF GANTZ FEELS THAT NETANYAHU IS NOT SERIOUS, THAT HE WILL RESIGN WITHIN A FEW DAYS.

IF HE THINKS THERE IS A CHANCE -- AND ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS ALL ABOUT SAVING THE HOSTAGES WHO ARE STILL ALIVE IN GAZA.

IF GANTZ FEELS THERE IS A PROSPECT OF THAT, I THINK HE WILL STAY.

HE WILL GIVE NETANYAHU A BIT MORE TIME TO TRY AND MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

>> AS YOU NOTED, THIS COULD ALL BE FOR NAUGHT.

OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE TO HEAR FROM HAMAS AGREEING TO THIS PROPOSAL AT THE END OF THE DAY.

MIXED MESSAGES COMING FROM THEIR LEADERSHIP AND WHO KNOWS WHAT YAHYA SINWAR ULTIMATELY WILL SAY ABOUT THIS.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PROMINENT FIGURES WHO SAY THIS IS NOT EVEN WORTH DEBATING AT THIS POINT.

FOR EXAMPLE, FORMER PRIME MINISTER NATALE BENNETT WAS ON TELEVISION EARLIER TODAY SAYING THERE IS NO INCENTIVE RIGHT NOW FOR SINWAR TO GIVE IN AND THEY SHOULD GO INTO RAFAH TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON SINWAR TO RELEASE ALL OF THE HOSTAGES.

THEN YOU HAVE DAVID HOROWITZ POINTING OUT THAT ONE OF THE MAIN OBSTACLES FOR THE DEAL TO GO THROUGH, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY FOR HAMAS TO AGREE TO THIS DEAL.

HE'S SAYING THAT ISRAEL'S PROPOSAL, AS SPECIFIED BY NETANYAHU AND PARTLY UNVEILED BY BIDEN ON FRIDAY NIGHT, REQUIRES HAMAS TO CONSENT TO ITS OWN EFFECTIVE DEMISE.

AND WHY, ONE MUST ASK, WOULD IT AGREE TO DO THAT?

DO YOU AGREE WITH BOTH OF THOSE TAKES?

MAYBE NOT NECESSARILY WHAT NAFTALI BENNETT IS SAYING ISRAEL SHOULD BE DOING, BUT THE FACT THAT AT LEAST AT THIS POINT, HAMAS AND SINWAR SPECIFICALLY DON'T FEEL ENOUGH PRESSURE TO AGREE TO A DEAL TO RELEASE ALL THE HOSTAGES.

>> IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT SINWAR CURRENTLY DOESN'T HAVE THAT MUCH OF AN INCENTIVE.

HE'S MANAGED TO SURVIVE FOR THE PAST EIGHT MONTHS SINCE HE LAUNCHED THE OCTOBER 7 MASSACRE.

HE'S SOMEWHERE UNDERGROUND, PROBABLY SURROUNDED BY ISRAELI HOSTAGES AS A SHIELD.

HE'S SAYING THE WAY THAT ISRAEL IS BEING PUMMELED ON THE NATIONAL STAGE, HOW LEGITIMACY HAVE BEEN ERODED AND HOW THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT IS MAKING ALL THE MISTAKES.

SO WHY SHOULD HE MOVE?

BUT HAMAS HAS ALSO OTHER MEMBERS, OTHER LEADERS.

THEY HAVE A LOT TO LOSE BY LOSING THEIR SHELTER IN DOHA AND QATAR THAT MAY HAPPEN AND INCURRING THE WRATH OF THE EGYPTIANS.

THERE'S ALSO THE QUESTION OF THE RAFAH CROSSING GOING FROM EGYPT INTO GAZA, WHICH IS A CRUCIAL LIFELINE ALSO FOR HAMAS.

SO THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH HAMAS CAN BE PRESSURED.

EVEN SINWAR CAN BE PRESSURED.

BUT IT'S TRUE THAT CURRENTLY, HE HAS EVERY REASON TO TOUGHEN IT OUT AND TO TRY AND GET EVEN BETTER CONDITIONS FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE.

BUT AT SOME POINT, HE DOES NEED TO USE THIS BARGAINING CHIP THAT HE HAS.

I MEAN HE KIDNAPPED THOSE HOSTAGES SO HE COULD BARTER THEM FOR A DEAL.

HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE A DEAL AT SOME POINT.

CERTAINLY AS WE KNOW, THE HOSTAGES ARE DYING, AND HE WON'T HAVE THAT MANY HOSTAGES TO BARGAIN WITH.

AND IT SOUNDS TERRIBLY CYNICAL, BUT THIS IS THE WAY THAT SINWAR IS OPERATING.

SO I AGREE THAT WHILE SINWAR WILL PROBABLY PLAY TOUGH, IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NO DEAL TO BE HAD.

>> YOU KNOW, I KEEP HEARING, ESPECIALLY FROM -- AND WE SHOULD NOTE THE IMPORTANCE OF ALWAYS HIGHLIGHTING THESE HOSTAGE FAMILIES AND REALLY ELEVATING THEIR POSITION, THE PLIGHT FOR THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.

THAT SHOULD BE TOP PRIORITY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SPENT A LOT OF TIME SPEAKING WITH MANY OF THESE FAMILY MEMBERS, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT HAVE DUAL U.S./ISRAELI CITIZENSHIP.

AND I KEEP HEARING FROM MANY ISRAELI FAMILIES OF HOSTAGES THAT THEY'RE NOT SEEING THE SAME -- THEY'RE NOT SEEING THE SAME EMOTIVES FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT, FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

I COULDN'T HELP BUT NOTE THAT THE OPENING CLIP THAT WE PLAYED FROM THE PRIME MINISTER, SAYING THAT HE THINKS ABOUT THESE FAMILIES, THESE HOSTAGES, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I CAN'T GET INTO HIS HEAD.

EVEN SOMEONE WHO'S COVERED HIM AS CLOSELY AND FOR AS LONG AS YOU HAVE CAN GET INTO HIS HEAD.

BUT IS THAT THE SENSE THAT MANY ISRAELIS FEEL THAT HE THINKS ABOUT THESE FAMILIES EVERY SINGLE DAY?

>> I THINK IF THAT WAS THE CASE, THEN WE WOULD SEE A MUCH CLOSER LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN NETANYAHU AND THE HOSTAGES' FAMILIES.

I MEAN YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENT BIDEN.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SPOKEN WITH SOME OF THE FAMILIES BEFORE NETANYAHU HAS AND MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY THAN HE HAS, AND HE'S GIVEN A NUMBER THAT THEY CAN CALL HIM.

AND WE KNOW THAT HE SPEAKS TO THEM ON A REGULAR BASIS WHEREAS WE SEE NETANYAHU'S MEDIA PROXIES ATTACK THE FAMILIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT AND FOR HELPING HAMAS IN THAT WAY.

SO, NO, I'M NOT CONVINCED NETANYAHU CONSTANTLY THINKS ABOUT THE FAMILIES, ABOUT THE HOSTAGES, THOUGH AS YOU SAY, I CAN'T GET INTO HIS HEAD.

>> HOW ARE ISRAELIS REACTING AT THE TIME NOW WHERE IT APPEARED UNTIL LAST MINUTE THAT THERE WAS A SPECIFIC DATE, AS EARLY AS NEXT WEEK, FOR NETANYAHU TO COME TO WASHINGTON TO ADDRESS A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS AFTER RECEIVING AN INVITATION FROM BOTH DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN LEADERS.

IT LOOKS LIKE THAT'S NOW BEING PUSHED BACK TO PERHAPS JULY.

BUT I'M JUST WONDERING THE PERCEPTION WITHIN ISRAEL OF WHAT THAT OPTIC WILL LOOK LIKE GIVEN THAT I KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF TENSION BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND LOCAL JOURNALISTS THERE ON THE GROUND.

HE DOESN'T SPEND MUCH TIME ONE-ON-ONE ON THEM AS HE DOES WITH WESTERN JOURNALISTS.

AND NOW WE HAVE HIM COMING TO ADDRESS A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS HERE.

GIVEN ALL OF THE TENSION BOILING OVER THERE AT HOME.

>> WELL, NETANYAHU, AS WE'RE SEEING NOW IN THE POLLS, HAS LOST THE TRUST OF AROUND 70% OF ISRAELIS, WHO WANT HIM TO RESIGN AND WHO WANT A NEW ELECTION, EITHER IMMEDIATELY OR AS SOON AS THE WAR ENDS.

THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM AS THEIR LEADER ANYMORE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE HAS THIS INCREDIBLE SELF-BELIEF IN HIS OWN POWERS OF RHETORIC, AND IF HE SHOWS ISRAELI HOW HE GOES TO WASHINGTON AND STANDS UP FOR ISRAEL IN A WAY THAT NO ONE ELSE HAS, AND TALKS TO THE CONGRESS AND USES THE BIBLICAL QUOTES THAT HE USES AND THE BASEBALL JOKES AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THE SHTICK THAT BIBI HAS BEEN DOING FOR SO MANY YEARS, THAT WILL SOMEHOW REBUILD ISRAELI CONFIDENCE IN HIM.

I'M SKEPTICAL, BUT NETANYAHU HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR SO MANY YEARS, HE DOESN'T LEARN NEW TRICKS.

HE JUST REPEATS THE SAME ONES HE'S DONE BEFORE.

AND I THINK THIS WILL ONLY CONVINCE THE SMALL BUT STILL LOYAL GROUP OF SUPPORTERS NETANYAHU HAD.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE CONCERNS THAT WE'RE SEEING THERE IN THE NORTH OF THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY THESE HUGE FIRES THAT HAVE BEEN SPARKED BY HEZBOLLAH SHELLING.

THIS AS, I WOULD SAY AND ARGUE, THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN UNDERREPORTING AND FOCUS ON JUST THE GROWING TENSIONS THERE WITH HEZBOLLAH, THE FACT THAT YOU'VE GOT 60,000 PEOPLE THERE THAT HAVE HAD TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES EFFECTIVELY.

WHERE ARE THINGS WITH REGARDS TO HEZBOLLAH AND CONCERNS ABOUT ANOTHER FRONT OPENING?

THESE IMAGES ARE TERRIBLE.

IT WAS SAID, IT'S TIME FOR ALL OF LEBANON TO BURN.

IS A GROUND OPERATION IN LEBANON GROWING CLOSER IN YOUR VIEW?

>> THERE IS A SECOND FRONT.

THERE HAS BEEN A SECOND FRONT FROM THE DAY AFTER OCTOBER 7 WHEN HEZBOLLAH STARTED FIRING ROCKETS AND MISSILES AT ISRAELI COMMUNITIES, FORCING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO EVACUATE.

AND THAT'S BEEN THE SITUATION EVER SINCE.

IT'S THE SECOND FRONT.

THERE IS A WAR THERE, BUT IT'S A LOW-INTENSITY WAR.

IT'S A WAR WHICH DOESN'T REACH MORE THAN A FEW KILOMETERS BEYOND THE BORDER ON EITHER SIDE.

NOW IT'S BEING BROUGHT HOME BY THE SCENES OF TERRIBLE FOREST FIRES BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER NOW BEING CAUSED BY THE ROCKETS.

I STILL DON'T DETECT ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, AND I THINK ON THE SIDE OF HEZBOLLAH, A REAL DESIRE TO GO FOR AN ALL-OUT WAR BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL, ISRAEL IS WAR-WEARY.

ISRAEL IS STILL FIGHTING IN GAZA.

AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT AN ALL-OUT WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH WILL MEAN TERRIBLE DESTRUCTION ON BOTH SIDES, IN ISRAEL AND IN LEBANON.

BUT, YES, THERE IS A SERIOUS THREAT OF THIS ESCALATING INTO AN ALL-OUT WAR, AND IT'S VERY MUCH CONNECTED TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA BECAUSE IF THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, THEN HEZBOLLAH WILL PROBABLY STOP HARASSING ISRAEL WITH THESE ROCKETS, AND THERE MAY BE AN OPENING FOR SOME KIND OF DIPLOMATIC ARRANGEMENT IN LEBANON.

BUT SINCE THAT'S CURRENTLY LINKED TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, IT MEANS WE'RE CONSTANTLY LOOKING BACKWARD AND SAYING, OH, CAN THERE BE SOME KIND OF DEAL WITH HAMAS?

AND THIS GIVES HAMAS EVEN MORE POWER BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW MUCH -- YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH PRESSURE THIS IS CAUSING ISRAEL RIGHT NOW ON THE LEBANESE BORDER.

>> I DON'T WANT TO END THINGS BY PUTTING YOU IN A TOUGH SPOT WITH ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES, ALUF EVENT, BUT I WANT TO SEE IF YOU AGREE WITH HIS LATEST ASSESSMENT, PREDICTING THAT NETANYAHU IS ON THE CUSP OF DISSOLVING PARLIAMENT.

WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK IT'S AN ALTERNATIVE NETANYAHU MAY USE.

HE HAS IN THE PAST.

IT WOULD BE A GAMBLE, AND IT WOULD MEAN HE WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE RISKING TWO MORE YEARS IN OFFICE THAT HE WOULD HAVE WITHOUT HAVING AN EARLY ELECTION.

THAT WOULD SOLVE BASICALLY MANY PROBLEMS FOR NETANYAHU.

NETANYAHU COULD DO STUFF AFTER DISSOLVING THE KNESSET FOR THE SPACE OF ABOUT THREE MONTHS OF AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHICH HE'S CURRENTLY RELUCTANT TO DO, MAINLY BECAUSE OF THE FAR-RIGHT PRESSURE.

IT'S CERTAINLY AN ALTERNATIVE FOR BIBI.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE DOESN'T -- HE MAY NOT RUSH TO RISK TWO MORE YEARS IN OFFICE IN THE KNOWLEDGE HE MAY NOT WIN THIS ELECTION.

SO I HALF AGREE THAT IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING BIBI COULD DO.

I'M NOT SURE YET IF HE'S QUITE READY FOR IT.

>> VERY DIPLOMATIC RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION THERE.

ANSHEL PFEFFER, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO INDIA AND THE WORLD'S BIGGEST ELECTION.

AFTER SIX WEEKS AND 642 MILLION VOTES CAST, PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI AND HIS BJP PARTY LOOK ON COURSE FOR A THIRD CONSECUTIVE TERM IN OFFICE.

BUT EARLY RESULTS SHOW THAT IT WAS A TIGHTER RACE THAN EXPECTED WITH THE OPPOSITION PARTY MAKING A COMPETITIVE SHOWING, HEADED UP BY THE FORMER GRANDSON -- THE GRANDSON OF FORMER PRIME MINISTER INDRA GHANDI.

WHAT MIGHT THE NEXT FIVE YEARS LOOK LIKE?

WHILE THE HINDU NATIONALIST LEADER RETAINS POPULARITY ACROSS THE COUNTRY, POINTING TO ADVANCEMENTS IN INFRASTRUCTURE AND TECHNOLOGY, CRITICS FEAR HIS CONTINUED CRACKDOWN ON FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

INDIAN JOURNALIST BARKHA DUTT HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE RESULTS CLOSELY AND JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM NEW DELHI.

BARKHA, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

NOT THE TURNOUT, NOT THE FINAL RESULTS THAT MODI HAD EXPECTED, BUT OBVIOUSLY HE CAME OUT FULLY EMBRACING THIS WIN.

A HISTORIC CONSECUTIVE THIRD-TERM WIN.

THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN THAT SINCE THE INDEPENDENT LEADER OF NEIRU.

SO HE HAS MUCH TO APPLAUD AND CELEBRATE, BUT ALSO NOW GOING BACK TO SORT OF GO OVER HOW THINGS WENT WRONG FOR HIS ULTIMATE GOAL OF A SUPERMAJORITY.

>> WELL, ABSOLUTELY.

THIS SEEMS LIKE SUCH A PARADOXICAL MOMENT BECAUSE ALTHOUGH MODI HAS MADE HISTORY WITH THAT THIRD TERM, AND HE'S POISED TO BE SWORN IN AS THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER, THE FACT IS THAT IT'S A VICTORY WITH SHADES OF DEFEAT.

AND LET ME EXPLAIN.

THE PRIME MINISTER HAD GIVEN A CALL -- MODI HAD GIVEN A CALL FOR A 400 SEAT GOAL IN INDIA'S PARLIAMENT FOR HIM AND HIS ALLIES.

BUT INSTEAD, WE'VE SEEN A KIND OF SLIP, A FALL-DOWN, A STUMBLE, CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL, THAT HAS TAKEN MODI AND HIS PARTY, THE BJP, BELOW THE MAJORITY MARK.

WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT A POLITICIAN, SINCE HE'S BEEN PRIME MINISTER, EVER BEEN PART OF A COALITION GOVERNMENT WHERE HE'S HAD TO DEPEND ON OTHER PARTIES.

HE WILL NOW HAVE TO DEPEND ON REGIONAL ALLIES, STATE LEADERS, TO BASICALLY FORM THE GOVERNMENT.

SO AUTOMATICALLY THAT SORT OF INVINCIBILITY, THAT AURA AROUND MODI THAT HE'S UNBEATABLE HAS GONE.

SECONDLY, IT WILL RAISE QUESTIONS POTENTIALLY ABOUT WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE STABLE IN THE WAY THAT MODI WOULD LIKE BECAUSE HE'S DEPENDENT ON OTHER PARTIES FOR POLITICAL LONGEVITY.

>> AND SOMETHING HE'S NOT USED TO OBVIOUSLY AND CLEARLY WAS NOT ANTICIPATING.

WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE, WHAT THIS NEW COALITION WITH SMALLER PARTIES WILL LOOK LIKE FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

>> WELL, TO START WITH, WHILE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT DIMINISHING OR TAKING AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT MODI IS STILL A STRONG POLITICAL BRAND NATIONALLY, HOW LAWS ARE PASSED IN INDIA WILL DRAMATICALLY CHANGE.

IN THE PAST, WE'VE SEEN THE MODI GOVERNMENT PUSHING THROUGH LEGISLATION ON CONTENTIOUS ISSUES THAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

FOR EXAMPLE, A NEW CITIZENSHIP ACT IS A DECISION THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN BY THE GOVERNMENT THAT NOT ALL OF ITS ALLIES WERE COMFORTABLE WITH.

BUT EARLIER, THE BRUTE NUMBERS OF THE BJP IN THE LAST TWO TERMS OF THE MODI GOVERNMENT WERE SO LARGE THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO TAKE SOME OF THESE DECISIONS.

NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MODI GOVERNMENT HAS LONG WANTED A UNIFORM CIVIL CODE, ONE LAW, ONE SORT OF FAMILY LAW THAT WOULD DISALLOW DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES TO HAVE THEIR OWN -- THEIR OWN LAWS.

TO PUSH THIS THROUGH, HE NEEDS -- IT WILL BE MUCH TOUGHER FOR HIM.

HE NEEDS THE CONSENT NOT JUST OF HIS OWN PARTNERS, BUT THE OPPOSITION NUMBERS HAVE SWELLED IN PARLIAMENT.

SO THAT'S THE FIRST CHANGE WE'RE GOING TO SEE, HOW INDIA'S PARLIAMENT WORKS AND WHAT KIND OF LAWS THAT CAN BE PUSHED THROUGH.

SECONDLY, THERE'S AN ANTICIPATION.

I THINK SOMEBODY DESCRIBED IT WELL.

IT'S A RETURN TO NORMAL POLITICS.

YOU SEE TODAY, MODI IS POWERFUL, BUT HE FEELS LIKE ANOTHER POLITICIAN.

AND THEREFORE, THERE'S A KIND OF NORMALIZATION INSTEAD OF THE KIND OF CULT OF PERSONALITY, THE UNBRIDLED POWER IN SOME WAYS THAT MODI HAD WIELDED IN THE LAST TWO TERMS.

>> SO DO YOU ANTICIPATE A HUMBLING OR A MORE HUMBLED MODI FOR A THIRD TERM?

>> YOU KNOW, IN HIS VICTORY SPEECH, HE DID NOT MAKE ANY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DISAPPOINTMENT.

HE DID NOT REFER TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAD FALLEN SHORT OF THE GOAL THEY SET FOR THEMSELVES, THEY'D FALLEN SHORT OF THE MAJORITY.

WHETHER OR NOT HE ACKNOWLEDGES IT AS SUCH, IT HAS BEEN A HUMBLING.

IT HAS BEEN A CONTAINMENT OF MODI.

AND I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING.

I'VE BEEN TRAVELING ACROSS INDIA TO REPORT THESE ELECTIONS, AND HIS OWN VOTERS -- I ASKED THEM A QUESTION.

I SAID, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU LIKE ABOUT MODI?

AND THEY WOULD NAME INDIA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD, SECURITY, INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND THEN I'D SAY, WHAT DO YOU WANT HIM TO DO DIFFERENTLY?

AND EVERY VOTER I MET GAVE ME TWO ANSWERS.

ONE, A GREATER FOCUS ON JOBS, A GREATER FOCUS ON LIVELIHOOD ISSUES.

AND, TWO, DIAL DOWN THE HINDU/MUSLIM RHETORIC.

DIAL DOWN THE RELIGIOUS RHETORIC.

MR. MODI WAS EXTREMELY STRIDENT IN MANY OF HIS CAMPAIGN SPEECHES THIS TIME, AND THAT FOCUS ON SORT OF RELIGIOUS ISSUES, POLARIZING ISSUES, HAS BEGUN TO MAKE HIS OWN VOTERS UNCOMFORTABLE.

THE WAY I SEE THIS VERDICT, IT'S A RESTORATION OF THE CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT EVERY SEMIAUTOMATIC NEEDS.

YOU DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO BE TOO POWERFUL, NOT THE GOVERNMENT, NOT THE OPPOSITION.

SOMEWHERE THERE'S BEEN A HEALTHY REBALANCE, A REORDERING OF INDIAN DEMOCRACY WITH THIS VERDICT.

>> HE REALLY RAN ON A HINDU NATIONALIST AGENDA.

AND GOING THROUGH SOME OF YOUR REALLY IMPORTANT AND FASCINATING REPORTING, IT WAS INTERESTING THAT EVEN WHEN HE SAW AN INITIAL DIP IN VOTER TURNOUT, THE FIRST PHASE OF THIS ELECTION, HE REALLY DOUBLED DOWN IN THAT NATIONALISM.

HE USED WORDS SUCH AS INFILTRATORS, THOSE WHO HAVE MORE CHILDREN.

AND THEN A FEW WEEKS LATER, HE SORT OF DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM THOSE REMARKS AND DENIED THAT HE WAS REFERRING TO MUSLIMS.

BUT WHEN YOU SPOKE TO PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY WHAT ONE FARMER TOLD YOU.

HE SAYS POLITICS BASED ON RELIGION IS WORTHLESS.

WHAT WE WANT IS 24/7 ELECTRICITY, ENOUGH WATER FOR IRRIGATION, AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR OUR CHILDREN.

DON'T TALK TO US ABOUT HINDUS AND MUSLIMS.

THEY ARE BOTH GOOD PEOPLE.

TALK TO US ABOUT HOW OUR LIVES CAN BE BETTER.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A FARMER I MET IN A REMOTE INTERIOR VILLAGE OF NORTH INDIA.

AS I SAT TALKING TO HIM, THERE WERE LITTLE CHILDREN PLAYING ALL AROUND US.

MOST CHILDREN HAD BIG DREAMS OF BEING A DOCTOR, OF JOINING THE INDIAN MILITARY.

BUT THE FACT IS THAT THEIR IMMEDIATE ENVIRONMENT DOESN'T HAVE THOSE ENABLING MECHANISMS THAT WILL ALLOW THEM THAT KIND OF EDUCATION TO PURSUE THEIR DREAMS.

AND PEOPLE ON THE GROUND SAID TO ME, WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THESE ISSUES.

THESE ARE NOT THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO US.

AND I AM STILL MYSTIFIED AS TO WHY THE PRIME MINISTER DOUBLED DOWN ON THOSE SPEECHES, DIDN'T DO ANYTHING FOR HIS IMAGE INTERNATIONALLY OR DOMESTICALLY, AND IT DIDN'T YIELD ANY EXTRA VOTES EITHER.

I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING.

RIGHT BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN, NARENDRA MODI PRESIDED OVER THE GRAND OPENING OF A TEMPLE, A TEMPLE THAT WAS BUILT WHERE A DISPUTED MOSQUE ONCE STOOD.

BUT THE BJP THOUGHT THAT THIS TEMPLE MOMENT WAS GOING TO BE ITS DEFINING MOMENT IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

ONE OF THE SEATS THAT THE BJP HAS LOST TODAY IS THE TOWN WHERE THIS TEMPLE ACTUALLY CAME UP.

AND I FOUND THAT REALLY VERY INSTRUCTIVE MESSAGE.

THE BJP HAS OVERUSED, OVERPLAYED THE RELIGIOUS CARD, THE RELIGION CARD, RATHER.

AND THEY'RE HAVING TO PAY FOR THAT IN THEIR OWN STATES WHERE THEY USED TO DOMINATE, WHERE THIS KIND OF POLITICS USED TO WORK.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY BEEN SATURATED, RUN ITS COURSE.

>> RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY LOOK TO BE ON COURSE TO TAKING 240 SEATS, THE BJP, AND 2019, THE LAST ELECTION, THEY WON 303 SEATS.

THIS CLEARLY IS A REFERENDUM ON MODI AND MODI-ISM, MORE SO THAN IT IS AN ENDORSEMENT OF THE OPPOSITION SPECIFICALLY, THE DOMINANT OPPOSITION.

THAT BEING RAHUL GANDHI, WHO IS NOT SEEN AS A VERY STRONG CANDIDATE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, RAHUL GANDHI, I WOULD SAY, IS BACK IN PLAY.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE HOW HE CONDUCTS HIMSELF AND HOW THE OPPOSITION CONDUCTS ITSELF OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WHILE THE MODI GOVERNMENT HEADS FOR A THIRD TERM.

BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT YOU ARE RIGHT TO THE EXTENT THAT I SEE THIS VERDICT MORE AS A NEED TO DEACCELERATE THE MODI JUGGERNAUT, TO CONTAIN IT WITHIN A FRAMEWORK WHERE IT IS MORE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE OF INDIAN THAN A POSITIVE VOTE FOR ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRENCHES.

IN ANY CASE, THE OPPOSITION DID NOT DECLARE A PRIME MINISTERIAL CANDIDATE, AND MODI -- WE HAVE A PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY, BUT MODI MADE IT ALMOST PRESIDENTIAL.

HE MADE IT ALL ABOUT HIMSELF.

THAT COMES WITH BENEFITS AND RISKS.

WHEN YOU WIN, YOU GET ALL THE CREDIT.

BUT WHEN YOU DROP 63 SEATS AS THE BJP HAS IN THIS VERDICT, WELL, THEN, YOU MADE IT ABOUT YOURSELF.

SO PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY THIS IS A WEAKENING, A DIMINISHING OF BRAND MODI.

MODI HEADS INTO A HISTORIC THIRD TERM WITH HIS WINGS CLIPPED, WITH HIS BRAND OR AUTHORITY SOMEWHAT DIMINISHED.

>> HE SET AMBITIOUS GOALS FOR HIMSELF, FOR THE COUNTRY UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, PARTY LEADERSHIP FOR BJP.

THIS IS ALREADY ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING ECONOMIES IN THE WORLD.

HE HAD HOPED IN THIS TERM THAT IT WOULD MOVE FROM FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY TO THIRD LARGEST ECONOMY.

HE SET A SPECIFIC TARGET DATE OF 2047 TO WHERE THIS DEVELOPING COUNTRY WOULD INDEED TURN INTO A DEVELOPED COUNTRY.

DOES ANY OF THIS STIFLE THOSE AMBITIONS?

AND I'M ASKING -- AND AGAIN, THE STOCK MARKET IS NOT INDICATIVE OF WHERE WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE ECONOMY BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

BUT WE SAW A PRETTY SHARP SELL-OFF TODAY FOLLOWING THIS NEWS.

>> WELL, I THINK THE STOCK MARKET DOESN'T ENDORSE OR GETS NERVOUS WITH COALITION GOVERNMENTS, GOVERNMENTS WHERE PARTIES DON'T HAVE A ONE-PARTY MAJORITY, BECAUSE THEY SEE THEM AS POTENTIALLY UNSTABLE BECAUSE IF YOUR PARTNERS WERE TO LEAVE YOU, THE GOVERNMENT WOULD FALL.

MARKETS PREFER A MORE PREDICTABLE POLITICS.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY, I DO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE MESSAGE THAT MR. MODI WILL TAKE AND I THINK WILL HAVE TO TAKE FROM THIS VERDICT IS TO FOCUS ON THE ECONOMY AND PRIORITIZE IT IN HIS THIRD TERM.

I SHOULD SAY -- I DON'T THINK IT'S LIKELY, BUT I SHOULD SAY THERE ARE CERTAIN OPPOSITION LEADERS WHO ARE SAYING THERE ARE WHISPERS ABOUT THE OPPOSITION TRYING TO BREAK AWAY THE TWO OR THREE REGIONAL PARTNERS THAT ARE WITH MR. MODI RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S ALSO THAT UP IN THE AIR.

BUT LET'S ASSUME FOR A MOMENT THAT THE MODI GOVERNMENT DOES GO INTO ITS THIRD TERM.

I DO THINK MR. MODI WILL TRY AND REPAIR OR SALVAGE THE LEGACY THAT GOT BRUISED IN THIS VERDICT BY ACTUALLY FOCUSING ON THE ECONOMY BECAUSE ONE OF THE MESSAGES FROM THE HEARTLAND OF INDIA IS UNDEREMPLOYED OR UNEMPLOYED YOUNG PEOPLE.

I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT ANOTHER YOUNG MAN I MET IN ONE OF THE STATES WHERE THE BJP HAS ACTUALLY FACED DEFEAT TODAY.

AND HE SAID TO ME IF MR. MODI CAN ASK FOR ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY FROM THE COUNTRY IN HIS MID-70s, THEN IN MY EARLY 20s, DON'T I DESERVE TO HAVE A GOOD JOB?

>> BARKHA DUTT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY SHARP ANALYSIS.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WELL, NOW TO SOME POLITICS RIGHT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TAKING A MAJOR STEP IN A CRUCIAL ELECTION ISSUE -- IMMIGRATION AND AMERICA'S SOUTHERN BORDER.

THE PRESIDENT IS ANNOUNCING AN EXECUTIVE ACTION WHICH WILL DRAMATICALLY LIMIT MIGRANTS' ABILITY TO SEEK ASYLUM AT THE MEXICAN BORDER IF THEY CROSSED ILLEGALLY.

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS CORRESPONDENT GUSTAVO VALDES, WHO IS IN MEXICO CITY.

GUSTAVO, ONCE THIS IS SIGNED, IT CAN GO INTO ACTION IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE THERE'S A THRESHOLD SET FOR THOSE WHO CROSS ILLEGALLY INTO THIS COUNTRY TO WHERE THIS ORDER CAN GO INTO EFFECT AFTER MORE THAN 2,500 ASYLUM SEEKERS GO TO THE BORDER.

YESTERDAY WE SAW YESTERDAY ALONE ABOUT 3,500 CROSS THE BORDER.

SO WE COULD SEE ACTION, THE BORDER EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN AS SOON AS TONIGHT.

>> WELL, THAT'S YET TO BE SEEN.

THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT TODAY IN HIS MORNING PRESS CONFERENCE ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE, AND HE ENSURED MEXICANS THAT THE BORDER WILL NOT BE SHUT DOWN BECAUSE IT'S TOO IMPORTANT FOR BOTH NATIONS.

SO THE DEFINITION OF CLOSING THE BORDER IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE CLEARLY EXPLAINED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AS TO WHAT THEY MEAN WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT CLOSING THE BORDER, IF IT'S GOING TO BE A STRATEGIC CLOSING OF CERTAIN POINTS OR IF IT'S GOING TO BE SOMETHING THEY'RE DOING IN BETWEEN POINTS OF ENTRY.

THERE IS CHAOS IN THE BORDER.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP AT THE CROSSING POINTS REQUESTING ASYLUM.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO GET TIRED OF WAITING AND CROSS ILLEGALLY, SOMETIMES TURNING THEMSELVES OVER TO IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES.

AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO JUST WANT TO GET IN, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES.

>> YEAH, AND THE TIMING IS INTERESTING BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THE NUMBERS OF THOSE SEEKING ASYLUM CROSSING THE BORDER DECLINE SINCE THEIR PEAK IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR.

BUT WE ALSO ARE HEARING REPORTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION, HAD WANTED TO WAIT UNTIL AFTER THE MEXICAN ELECTIONS, THE RESULTS WERE IN.

PRESIDENT-ELECT SHEINBAUM YESTERDAY WAS GIVEN A MANDATE, AN OVERRIDING MANDATE THERE IN THE COUNTRY, AND ALSO CLEARLY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING AND IMPORTANT ISSUES FOR VOTERS AND ONE THAT MANY VIEW AS A WEAKNESS FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

SO NOW THEY KNOW WHO THE NEXT PRESIDENT IN MEXICO IS, SO THEY KNOW THAT IT'S SOMEBODY WHO IS LIKE PRESIDENT LOPEZ OBRADOR, SO THEY CAN ASSUME OR NEGOTIATE ON THE SAME TERMS TRYING TO IMPLEMENT THE SAME POLICIES THEY HAVE WITH LOPEZ OBRADOR, WHO LEAVES OFFICE IN OCTOBER, SO THEY CAN CONTINUE PASS OCTOBER, BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD BACKFIRE TO PRESIDENT BIDEN IN HIS EFFORTS TO TRY TO SHOW THAT HE'S DOING SOMETHING ON IMMIGRATION BECAUSE WHAT WE SAW WHEN THE COVID RESTRICTIONS ON IMMIGRATION ENDED, WE SAW THIS RUSH OF MIGRANTS TRYING TO BEAT THE DEADLINE AND GET THERE.

SO WE COULD SEE THE SAME THING HAPPENING NOW AND PEOPLE WAITING TO SEE WHEN THIS ACTION TAKES.

WE MAY SEE THAT RUSH AND TURN INTO A HEADACHE FOR THE UNITED STATES, FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

SO IT COULD BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, NOT TO MENTION THE LAWSUITS IT'S GOING TO BE FACING GIVEN THAT GROUPS LIKE THE ACLU IS ALREADY SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO SUE.

>> YEAH, AND IT'S EXACTLY WHAT WHICH SAW WHEN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO USE THIS EXACT MANDATE WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE AS YOU MENTIONED.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING HERE, GUSTAVO, IS THAT IT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE ISSUE AT HAND.

THIS IS REALLY JUST A STOPGAP, BUT IT DOESN'T ADDRESS WHY WE'RE SEEING THIS MIGRANT CRISIS.

I'M JUST WONDERING FROM WHAT YOU'RE REPORTING AND FROM WHAT YOU'RE HEARING THERE IN MEXICO, HOW MUCH FRUSTRATION IS THERE ON THE PRESSURE THIS NOW PUTS ON MEXICO?

>> WELL, LIKE I SAID, THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT KIND OF DISMISSED THE WHOLE IDEA.

HE SAID DEPORTATIONS HAPPEN ALL THE TIME, AND HE TRIES TO PRESENT, AT LEAST TO THE MEXICAN PEOPLE, THAT HE'S TRYING TO PRESS THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, NOT JUST THE PRESIDENCY, BUT CONGRESS, TO DO SOMETHING ON IMMIGRATION.

HE HAS A TEN-POINT PLAN THAT HE WANTS THE UNITED STATES TO IMPLEMENT.

AMONG THE THINGS HE WANTS IS LEGALIZATION OF UNDOCUMENTED, SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT ALONE CANNOT DO.

BUT HE DID SAY THAT WHOEVER -- FROM WHICHEVER PARTY DOES SOMETHING ON IMMIGRATION WILL HAVE THE GRATITUDE OF THE MEXICAN PEOPLE.

BUT HE ALSO ESTABLISHED OTHER POINTS.

LIKE HE WANTS TO RE-ESTABLISH THE RELATIONSHIP WITH VENEZUELA.

HE WANTS THE UNITED STATES TO STOP SENDING WEAPONS TO POINTS OF WAR.

SO THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES IN PLACE, SO PERHAPS PRESIDENT OBRADOR KNOWS THAT HE HAS THE UPPER HAND CONTROLLING IMMIGRATION IN MEXICO, AND HE'S TRYING TO USE IT TO PRESSURE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>> GUSTAVO VALDES, JOINING US FROM MEXICO CITY, THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW A GROUP PARTICULARLY IN FAVOR OF HOSTILITY TOWARDS IMMIGRANTS IS THE FAR-RIGHT WHITE NATIONALISTS, WHICH OUR NEXT GUEST GREW UP BEING A PART OF AND HAS SINCE RENOUNCED.

IN A NEW MEMOIR, "THE KLANSMAN'S SON," R. DEREK BLACK WRITES ABOUT THEIR UPBRINGING FROM A PROMINENT WHITE SUPREMACIST FROM CHILDHOOD TO AN OUTSPOKEN ANTI-RACIST CRITIC.

THEY JOIN MICHEL MARTIN.

THIS INTERVIEW, WE SHOULD NOTE, IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM, AND EXTREMISM.

>> DEREK BLACK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> IF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW YOUR STORY COMPLETELY, THEY PROBABLY HAVE HEARD ABOUT YOU.

YOU GREW UP IN A WHITE NATIONALIST FAMILY.

DAVID DUKE MAY BE THE MOST FAMOUS WHITE NATIONALIST IN AMERICA, WAS YOUR DAD'S BEST FRIEND.

YOU CALLED HIM UNCLE.

YOU'VE BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT QUITE EXTENSIVELY, SOME VERY MOVING AND IN-DEPTH REPORTING HAS BEEN SORT OF DONE ABOUT UR YOUR JOURNEY.

BUT THIS BOOK IS YOU WRITING ABOUT YOUR LIFE IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

WHY DID YOU THINK THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO DO?

>> YEAH.

I WAS REALLY GLAD THAT I EVENTUALLY GOT TO A PLACE IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS WHERE I FELT LIKE I HAD ENOUGH DISTANCE FROM MY UPBRINGING TO EVEN CONTEXTUALIZE IT.

AFTER BIDEN'S ELECTORAL VICTORY, I WAS FEELING LIKE THIS MOMENT OF FOCUS ON THE FAR RIGHT AND FOCUS ON THE POWER OF THIS MOVEMENT WAS GETTING A LITTLE BIT TOO LITTLE ATTENTION ACTUALLY BECAUSE HISTORICALLY IN THOSE MOMENTS, PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE'S AN ADMINISTRATION CHANGE, THAT'S WHEN THIS MOVEMENT TENDS TO SURGE.

I WAS VERY CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T FOCUSING ON THAT.

AND THEN JANUARY 6th WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY CRYSTALLIZED THAT, AND IT'S BEEN SINCE THEN THAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO THINK ABOUT THE SOCIAL CONTEXT, THE HISTORY THAT MY FAMILY CAME FROM, AND REALLY DESCRIBE WHERE I THINK THIS IS GOING.

>> YOU'RE A TRAINED HISTORIAN, SO YOU HAVE ACCESS BOTH TO KIND OF THE TOOLS, YOU KNOW, OF THE ACADEMY AS WELL AS YOUR OWN PERSONAL STORY.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THIS BOOK DOES IS BOTH.

I MEAN YOU TALK ABOUT KIND OF THE HISTORY OF THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU INTERWEAVE THAT WITH YOUR OWN PERSONAL STORY.

YOU KNOW, I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF AN ANALOGY TO YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND I COULDN'T DECIDE.

WAS IT THAT YOU WERE LIKE A CHILD ACTOR, OR WERE YOU LIKE A CHILD SOLDIER?

>> I MEAN, I THINK I -- IT WAS ONLY REALLY IN WRITING THE BOOK THAT I STARTED THINKING ABOUT JUST HOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT WORD IS -- LIKE HOW CLAUSTROPHOBIC BEING RAISED THE WAY I WAS FELT.

LIKE I START THE BOOK WITH THE SCENE WHEN I WAS 10 AND DOING MY FIRST INTERVIEW, AND I REMEMBERED THAT.

IT WAS PART OF MY STORY OF MY LIFE, SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY VISCERAL.

>> ACTUALLY, WHY DON'T WE START THERE.

WHY DON'T YOU TELL THIS STORY BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU START THE BOOK.

YOU GAVE YOUR FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW ON ONE OF THOSE NATIONALLY SYNDICATED TALK SHOWS THAT WERE SUPER POPULAR AT A CERTAIN POINT.

>> I WAS WITH MY DAD, AND I HAD GROWN UP IN FLORIDA.

AND THE SHOW FLEW US TO CHICAGO TO BE ON THE JIMMY JONES SHOW.

IT WAS SORT OF LIKE JENNY SPRINGER.

IT HAD A YELLING, BRAWLING AUDIENCE.

BUT HE NEGOTIATED THAT I WOULD BE ABLE TO BE OFFSTAGE AND NOT HAVE TO GO OUT IN FRONT OF THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE YELLING AT HIM ALONG WITH ALL OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE BROUGHT TOGETHER AS HATEFUL SITES ON THE INTERNET.

NAZI GROUPS WERE THERE, AND MY DAD WAS THERE, AND I WAS THERE.

I LOOKED BACK ON THAT, AND I REMEMBERED IT AS THE MOMENT THAT I SORT OF BEGAN A PATH WHERE I FELT LIKE I'M A SPOKESMAN FOR THIS CAUSE AND SLOWLY ABLE TO REPRESENT MYSELF MORE AND, LIKE, TAKE CONTROL OF THAT NARRATIVE.

MY DAD ASKED ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS?

YOU CAN BACK OUT.

YOU CAN EVEN QUIT EVEN UP TILL THE DAY OF THE SHOW.

AND THAT FEELING OF HIM TRUSTING ME WAS SOMETHING THAT I REMEMBER FEELING SO CARED FOR AND REALLY WANTING TO GIVE BACK.

AND IT ALSO TAUGHT ME ALL THESE LESSONS ABOUT JUST HOW THE WORLD SEES US.

I WAS REALLY SURPRISED AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW, LISTENING TO MYSELF EXPLAIN TO JENNY JONES THAT THE REASON ALL THESE PEOPLE WERE SO ANGRY AT US, THE REASON THAT THEY WERE JEERING AND SENDING ME HATEFUL EMAILS IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND US.

AND JUST THROUGHOUT ALL OF MY ADOLESCENCE, THAT FEELING OF, LIKE, MY FAMILY BELIEVES SOMETHING THAT THEY BELIEVE IS TRUE AND MORAL, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD JUST DESPISES THEM FOR IT, AND SO WE ALL HAVE TO HAVE EACH OTHER'S BACKS.

LIKE THAT WAS AGE 13, 14, 16, 17, ALL THE WAY TILL COLLEGE.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY SORT OF DEFINES WHITE NATIONALISM, AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT PERSISTS IN THIS COUNTRY TO THE DEGREE THAT IT DOES?

THIS.

>> YEAH.

I TRY IN THE BOOK TO MAKE SURE TO CALL IT WHITE NATIONALISM OR THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT BECAUSE IT'S THIS SOCIAL MOVEMENT WHERE THE PEOPLE KNOW EACH OTHER.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE A PART OF THIS.

IT'S A BIG PART OF THEIR IDENTITY.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S SEPARATE FROM JUST LIKE RACISM OR WHITE SUPREMACY OR BEING XENOPHOBIC OR ANTI-SEMITIC OR ANY OF THE THINGS THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS A PART OF THIS MOVEMENT THAT HAS 60 YEARS OF HISTORY AND GOALS, LIKE POLITICAL AND VIOLENT GOALS.

AND THEN WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS SOMETHING THAT THEY'VE TAKEN FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN OUR CULTURE AND IN OUR HISTORY.

THEY BELIEVE THAT RACE IS BIOLOGICAL, AND IT PREDICTS ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT PEOPLE, WHICH JUST SO -- SO THOUSAND TIMES OVER DISPROVEN THAT IT'S THIS SPECIAL CONTEXT, AND YET THEY CAN BE QUITE EDUCATED AND CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF THIS.

AND THEY ALSO BELIEVE IN AN ANTI-SEMITIC CONSPIRACY THEORY, THAT ALL ANTI-RACIST MOVEMENTS ARE REALLY BEING RUN BY JEWISH PEOPLE.

BOTH OF THOSE REQUIRE THAT YOU SEE THE WORLD IN A QUITE STRANGE WAY.

I THINK THERE'S ALSO A LESSON THAT I'VE LEARNED THERE, WHICH IS AS LONG AS SOMETHING IS SERVING YOUR COMMUNITY, PEOPLE CAN CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETIMES THIS SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO BE IGNORANT OR UNEDUCATED OR DESPERATE TO BE RACIST OR, YOU KNOW, BIGOTED IN WHATEVER WAY, AND THAT WAS NEVER MY EXPERIENCE.

PEOPLE HAVE DEGREES.

THEY HAVE WHITE COLLAR JOBS, AND YET THEY SEE THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT EXPLAINS AND JUSTIFIES THEIR EXISTENCE.

IT'S NOT THE CASE THAT PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO BE STUPID, AND THEREFORE WE CAN LIKE ARGUE THEM OUT OF IT.

IT IS ABOUT THEIR OWN SENSE OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR COMMITMENT TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT KEEPS THEM IN SOMETHING, AND I THINK THAT IS ALSO THE WAY THAT YOU CHANGE SOMEBODY'S MIND.

IT'S NOT BY -- IT'S NOT JUST BY GIVING THEM FACTS.

I THINK IT OFTEN SOUNDS LIKE FACTS, BUT IT'S ABOUT GETTING THEM TO BE OPEN TO PEOPLE THAT THEY'VE NEVER CONSIDERED THEMSELVES RESPONSIBLE FOR, THEY'VE NEVER CONSIDERED AS SOMEONE LOVES.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THIS BOOK IS JANUARY 6th.

I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE SURPRISES WHEN YOU REALIZED WHO WERE THE PEOPLE WHO ATTACKED THE CAPITOL.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE IT WAS SOME SORT OF PEOPLE LIVING OFF IN A SHACK SOMEPLACE.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

SO HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, WE COULD TELL IN THE DAYS AFTER, AND WE KNOW MUCH MORE CERTAINLY NOW THAT MEMBERS OF THIS ORGANIZED MOVEMENT WERE REALLY KEY ON JANUARY 6th TO SORT OF DRIVING THE CROWD, PUSHING THEM FURTHER.

I THINK THERE'S A REAL LESSON THERE IN JUST HOW A MOVEMENT LIKE THIS OPERATES.

IT'S NOT THAT THEY HAVE MILLIONS OF MEMBERS.

IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE, THOUGH, MILITIAS OR SOMETHING.

IT'S THAT THEY BELIEVE THINGS THAT EXIST IN OUR SOCIETY.

THEY LEAN INTO IDEAS THAT ARE NOT, LIKE, FROM ANOTHER PLANET.

THEN THEY AMPLIFY THEM.

THEY DRIVE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP WANTING TO FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE JUSTIFIED, WHO WANT TO NOT BE CALLED RACIST OR SOME NAME, AND THEY GIVE THEM A SPACE WHERE THEY TELL THEM THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO RETHINK ANYTHING.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO EVEN RESPOND TO THOSE WORDS.

AND THAT'S ALSO A POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IN THE BOOK, THAT SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT THE MEDIA HAS DONE IN COVERING THE FAR-RIGHT MOVEMENT IS IN ACTING LIKE SOMEBODY BEING A PART OF THIS MOVEMENT, WHO HAS A BACHELOR'S DEGREE OR WHO SEEMS KIND OF NICE OR WHO WATCHES MOVIES OR GOES TO CHAIN RESTAURANTS, LIKE THAT'S STRANGE AND NOTABLE AND, OH, THIS PERSON IS HATEFUL AND ALSO SEEMS KIND OF NORMAL.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS MOVEMENT WANTS.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THEY WANT TO BE COVERED BECAUSE FOR THE MOST PART, THEY ARE NORMAL BECAUSE RACISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM ARE NORMAL IN AMERICA.

>> THE OTHER THING YOU WRITE ABOUT, I THINK VERY PERSUASIVELY AND MOVINGLY IS THE ROLE OF RELATIONSHIPS IN A MOST LIKE THIS.

IT JUST BECOMES HARD TO LEAVE.

YOU LOVE THEM, AND THEY LOVE YOU.

AND YOU WROTE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT THAT I GREW UP IN IS CONSTITUTED BY RELATIONSHIPS, BOTH BETWEEN CURRENT ACTIVISTS AS WELL AS THEIR EQUALLY STRONG FEELING OF INHERITANCE AND RESPONSIBILITY TO THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE THEM.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO TRULY SEPARATE AN OBJECTIVE SENSE OF THIS DESTRUCTIVE IDEOLOGY FROM THE FACT I UNDERSTAND THEIR SELF-IDENTITY, LOVE SO MANY OF THEM, AND CAN NEVER REALLY SEPARATE MYSELF FROM THEIR STORY.

THAT'S A PRETTY POWERFUL INSIGHT.

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE?

>> WHEN I CONDEMNED WHITE NATIONALISM, I IMMEDIATELY HAD TO LOOK AT MYSELF AND RECOGNIZE THAT I HAD CLEARLY GROWN UP IN A FAMILY, IN A MOVEMENT THAT WAS SO COMMITTED TO EACH OTHER AND CARED ABOUT EACH OTHER SO MUCH, AND IN A FAMILY IN PARTICULAR THAT PRIDED THEMSELVES ON BEING THE CENTRAL LEADERSHIP OF THIS MOVEMENT.

AND ON ONE LEVEL, THAT JUST MADE SENSE.

OF COURSE, IF YOU GROW UP IN A LIFE LIKE THAT, THEN YOU'LL LEAN INTO THESE BELIEFS, AND YOU'LL JUSTIFY THEM.

BUT I HAD TOLD MYSELF ALL ALONG THAT IF THE WORLD THOUGHT WE WERE WRONG, I WANTED TO JUSTIFY IT.

I WANTED TO SEEK OUT ALL THE SUPPOSED FACTS.

MY FAMILY HAD ACTED THE SAME WAY.

BUT THEN WHEN I GOT TO THE END OF THAT, PEOPLE IN COLLEGE HAD WALKED ME THROUGH ALL THE STUPID STATISTICS AND THE WAYS THAT WHITE NATIONALISTS SORT OF ABUSE SCIENCE AND HAVE ALL THIS, LIKE, STUFF THAT DOESN'T HOLD UP.

SO AT THE END, I DIDN'T HAVE FACTS TO SUPPORT THIS BELIEF.

I DIDN'T HAVE A RATIONAL ARGUMENT FOR IT.

I HAD TO ACCEPT I HAD GOTTEN CLOSE TO A COMMUNITY THAT MADE ME RECOGNIZE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PERSON WHO HURT THEM.

AS LONG AS I WAS ADVOCATING THIS IDEOLOGY, I WAS HURTING THEM.

TO GET TO THAT POINT AND STILL RECOGNIZE THAT I DID NOT WANT TO CONDEMN MY FAMILY MADE ME FACE THE FACT THAT MY BELIEFS HAD BEEN SO BASED IN IDENTITY, IN CARE AND LOVE, AND WANTING TO BE A PART OF THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAD RAISED ME -- LIKE, EVERY RELATIONSHIP I HAD HAD UP UNTIL I WAS 21 YEARS OLD -- AND THAT FEELING WAS JUST SO DISCONCERTING.

>> ONE OF THE WEIRD IRONIES IS THAT YOU ATTENDED NEW COLLEGE IN SARASOTA, FLORIDA.

ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE CURRENT MOMENT IS THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA SEEMS REALLY DEDICATED TO CHANGING THE LEADERSHIP OF THAT SCHOOL.

I MEAN NOT JUST THAT SCHOOL, BUT AS YOU WILL NOTICED, THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, PARTICULARLY IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, HAS BECOME VERY AGGRESSIVE ABOUT POLICING THE BOOKS THAT KIDS READ, THE WAY CERTAIN ISSUES ARE TAUGHT, PARTICULARLY RACE, NOT ONLY RACE, CHANGING THE LEADERSHIP OF CERTAIN INSTITUTIONS, ELIMINATING DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION OFFICES AT STATE SCHOOLS.

FLORIDA IS KIND OF GROUND ZERO FOR THAT.

I MEAN THE CURRENT GOVERNOR SAYS, YOU KNOW, FLORIDA IS THE PLACE WHERE WOKE GOES TO DIE.

I'M PARTICULARLY WONDERING WHY YOU THINK NEW COLLEGE SHOULD BECOME SUCH A FOCUS OF HIS ATTENTION, THE MOVEMENT'S ATTENTION, AND HIS ATTENTION IN PARTICULAR.

>> WHAT I'VE HEARD IS THAT IT WAS RAW CONVENIENCE THAT THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO TEST AND WANTED TO TEST JUST HOW MUCH DIRECT CONTROL OVER THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION COULD WIELD, AND NEW COLLEGE BEING THE SMALLEST UNIVERSITY IN THE STATE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM, WITH LIKE FEWER THAN 800 PEOPLE, WAS A GOOD TEST CASE.

THAT THEY COULD JUST TRY TO SEE HOW MUCH USING A SUPERMAJORITY IN THE STATE GOVERNMENT AND CONTROLLING THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES COULD OVERWHELM A UNIVERSITY.

AND THEY'VE PRACTICED THAT AT OTHER UNIVERSITIES AS WELL.

IT'S BEEN TRAUMATIC, THOUGH.

THE CULTURAL SILENCING THAT'S HAPPENED THERE, STUDENTS -- I KNOW STUDENTS WHO ARE THERE NOW, AND THEY ARE -- THEY FEEL POLICED AND INTIMIDATED ALMOST ALL THE TIME JUST FOR THEIR IDENTITIES.

THE OTHER THING I DO WANT TO MENTION IS I THINK THERE'S AN EMPHASIS THAT I REALLY LEARNED AT NEW COLLEGE THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE WAY THAT HISTORY TEACHES AROUND RACISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT I THINK ALSO THE WAY THE ADMINISTRATION IS FOCUSING ON QUEER STUDENTS, PARTICULARLY TRANS STUDENTS, IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT THE SAME ISSUE, BUT IT'S REMARKABLE THE WAY THAT THEY'RE DEMONSTRATING HOW CONNECTED THEY FEEL LIKE THOSE MOVEMENTS ARE.

THAT AT THE SAME TIME THIS ADMINISTRATION IS BANNING THE TEACHING OF THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY, THE HISTORY OF RACISM AND WHITE SUPREMACY, TEACHING PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOU FEEL NOT PROUD ABOUT HISTORY, AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE ALSO BANNING TEACHERS AND STUDENTS FROM TALKING ABOUT GENDER, FROM TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY, THAT NEW COLLEGE WAS A PLACE THAT HAD A LARGE TRANS POPULATION WHEN I WAS THERE AND STILL DOES.

IT WAS A PLACE THAT REALLY MADE AN INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENT IN A SOCIETY THAT BROADLY IS NOT.

AND THE DeSANTIS ADMINISTRATION HAS DIRECTLY ATTACKED TRANS STUDENTS.

THEY HAVE IMPOSED RULES POLICING USAGE OF BATHROOMS, MAKING STUDENT CONDUCT BE SOMETHING THAT GOING INTO THE BATHROOM THAT DOES NOT ALIGN WITH THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE FOR SOME PEOPLE.

AND THEN A STUDENT CONDUCT VIOLATION WHERE PROFESSORS ARE MEANT TO SORT OF MONITOR STUDENTS IN THEIR PRESENTATIONS AND THEIR LIVES.

>> IF YOU DON'T MIND, I DID NOTICE THAT YOUR OWN PRONOUNS HAVE CHANGED.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

I DO DESCRIBE MYSELF AS TRANS, AND IT'S BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN SOMETHING I'M FIGURING OUT.

IT WASN'T ONE I'M WILLING TO DESCRIBE EXTENSIVELY IN THE BOOK.

THOUGHTS ABOUT GENDER THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IN MY LIFE, BUT IT WAS REALLY AT NEW COLLEGE THAT I FOUND THE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO WE'VE BEEN DESCRIBED A WAY TO LIVE AUTHENTICALLY.

IT WASN'T UNTIL YEARS AFTER NEW COLLEGE THAT I DECIDED AND REALIZED I REALLY DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, KEEP TRYING TO BE SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ELSE.

I THINK I EVENTUALLY REALIZED THERE'S NOBODY TO TRY TO BE SOMETHING FOR.

SO I'VE BEEN EXPANDING, EXPLORING MY GENDER IDENTITY, AND I USE THEY AND SHE.

IT'S BEEN SOMETHING I'VE FELT A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE COMING OUT ABOUT AS THIS BOOK WAS COMING OUT.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, DO YOU SEE A WAY FORWARD FOR THE REST OF US WHO ARE GRAPPLING WITH THESE THINGS, SORT OF THE DIVISIONS IN OUR SOCIETY, THE WAY THAT WE SEEM SO DEEPLY POLARIZED AROUND THINGS THAT SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE SETTLED ISSUES?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF FAITH -- I MEAN NOT EVEN FAITH.

I JUST KNOW FOR A FACT THAT PEOPLE CAN AND DO ALWAYS CHANGE.

LIKE THAT IS JUST INEVITABLE EXPERIENCE OF HUMANITY.

WE ARE ALWAYS CHANGING, AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS TOO FAR GONE AND CAN NEVER GO AWAY OR NEVER CHANGE.

LIKE WE CAN RETHINK THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PARTS OF OURSELVES.

BUT IT REQUIRES ENGAGEMENT AND COMMUNITY CONNECTION.

IT REQUIRES BEING A PART OF THE WORLD AND BEING OPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE.

WE CAN'T MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR ANYONE.

WE CAN'T COERCE SOMEBODY INTO BEING OPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE.

THAT'S A CHOICE THAT THEY HAVE TO MAKE, AND WE CAN MAKE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THAT.

I THINK WE ALL SORT OF HAVE DECISIONS TO MAKE ABOUT HOW DO WE WANT TO EXIST IN THE WORLD, HOW DO WE WANT TO SPEAK UP.

SOMETHING I LEARNED FROM MY UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE WAS THAT EVERYBODY SAID AND DID SOMETHING.

SOME PEOPLE INVITED ME TO COME TO A WEEKLY CHABOT DINNERS AND REALLY ENGAGE WITH MY BELIEF SYSTEM.

BUT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE JUST SPOKE OUT AND SAID, THIS IS A COMMUNITY WHERE WE DON'T WANT STUDENTS OF COLOR AND JEWISH STUDENTS TO FEEL AFRAID.

AND THAT WAS AN ACTION THAT WAS SUPER IMPORTANT TO ME.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I FELT OSTRACIZED AT THE MOMENT, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE ME FEEL LIKE I NEEDED TO RESPOND.

LIKE IF I DIDN'T WANT STUDENTS TO FEEL UNSAFE IN THE COMMUNITY EITHER, THEN I NEEDED TO ANSWER FOR WHAT WAS I DOING TO TRY TO MAKE THAT BE TRUE.

AND THE LESSON, I THINK, FROM THAT IS THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING TO SPEAK UP FOR THE WORLD THAT THEY WANT TO SEE AND THAT YOU NEVER QUITE KNOW THE EFFECT THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAVE AND WHO IT'S GOING TO PUSH AND WHO IT'S GOING TO NUDGE.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS SOMETHING WHERE YOU HAVE AN ACTION, THEN YOU IMMEDIATELY SEE THE RESULT.

BUT IT'S STILL SOMETHING WE NEED TO BE PERSISTENTLY TRYING TO DO.

>> DEREK BLACK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH, MICHEL.

IT WAS REALLY GOOD TO BE HERE.

>>> AND FINALLY, TO OUR FOREVER HEROES, THANK YOU.

THOSE WERE THE WORDS OF FRENCH CHILDREN WELCOMING SOME 50 AMERICAN WAR VETERANS BACK TO NORMANDY AHEAD OF D-DAY COMMEMORATIONS THIS THURSDAY.

AMONG THE VETERANS WAS JAKE LARSEN, A 101-YEAR-OLD BEST KNOWN FOR HIS 800,000 FOLLOWERS ON TIKTOK AS PAPA JAKE.

HE WAS JUST 15 WHEN HE ENLISTED, LANDING ON OMAHA BEACH ON D-DAY AND SURVIVING UNSCATHED.

WE'LL BE COMMEMORATING THAT HISTORIC DAY THURSDAY, BRINGING YOU SPECIAL D-DAY COVERAGE LIVE FROM NORMANDY.

YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS THE SHOW.

WELL, THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

♪♪♪