Kristin Hannah’s “The Women:” Honoring the Female Veterans of the Vietnam War

>>> NOW, INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE IS RAMPING UP ON ISRAEL AND U.S. STUDENTS ARE DEMANDING A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA AND TRANSPARENCY FROM THEIR LEADERS.

FOR MANY, THE IMAGES OF YOUNG PEOPLE DEMONSTRATING ON CAMPUSES AND CLASHING WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT EVOKES MEMORIES OF THE PROTEST MOVEMENT DURING THE VIETNAM WAR, SETTING USED AS A BACKDROP FOR A HIT NEW NOVEL, "THE WOMEN".

IT SHINES A LIGHT ON THE THOUSANDS OF FUN FORGOTTEN NURSES TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY AND CAME HOME TO A BITTERLY DIVIDED NATION.

>> KRISTIN HANNAH, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN THE AUTHOR OF MORE THAN 20 NOVELS.

YOUR LATEST , "THE WOMEN" TALKS ABOUT THE COME BACK NURSES IN VIETNAM.

TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU FIRST PITCHED THIS IS AN IDEA MAYBE 20, 25 YEARS AGO.

>> I PITCHED IT IN 1997 TO MY THEN EDITOR AND YOU KNOW, WE HAD A LONG TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BOTTOM LINE WAS, SHE HAD BEEN AT BERKELEY IN 1968, MY EDITOR, AND SHE SAID YOU KNOW, THE WORLD ISN'T READY FOR THIS BOOK AND FRANKLY, YOU ARE READY TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

YOU ARE OLD ENOUGH.

YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PERSPECTIVE AND YOU AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH, SO YOU KNOW, COME BACK WHEN YOU THINK YOU ARE AND COME BACK WHEN WE THINK THE COUNTRY IS READY TO HEAR THE STORY.

>> WHAT IS HAPPENED IN THE COUNTRY THAT YOU NOW THINK IS MORE RELEVANT THAN WE ARE READY TO HEAR IT?

>> JUST TO GO BACK A BIT, I WAS A CHILD DURING THE VIETNAM WAR AND MY GOOD FRIEND IN FOURTH GRADE, HER FATHER SERVED AND WAS SHOT DOWN SO BACK IN THOSE DAYS WE HAD THE PRISONER OF WAR BRACELET WHICH WE WORE IN HOPES THAT HE WOULD COME HOME WHEN WE TAKE IT OFF AND SO I HAD THIS BRACELET ON FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND WAS CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT HIM AND THE OTHER SOLDIERS WHO DIDN'T COME HOME AND THEN AS A GIRL, EVEN, I SAW HOW THE SOLDIERS WERE TREATED WHEN THEY DID COME HOME SO THIS WAS THE THING I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT, THE PART OF THE VIETNAM EXPERIENCE I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT AND I KEPT CHECKING BACK IN WITH IT OVER THE YEARS AS I WAS WRITING OTHER NOVELS AND FINALLY, IT WAS MARCH OF 2020 WHEN IN MY HOMETOWN OF SEATTLE, WE WERE ON LOCKDOWN FROM THE PANDEMIC AND I WAS WATCHING THE NIGHTLY NEWS AND SEEING WHAT WE ALL WERE SEEING, THE POLITICAL DIVISIONS THAT WERE TEARING THE COUNTRY APART, AND THE ANGER AND IT FELT VERY MUCH LIKE THE VIETNAM ERA AGAIN, AND THEN I WAS WATCHING OUR NURSES AND OUR DOCTORS WHO WERE ON THE FRONT LINE OF THIS PANDEMIC SACRIFICING SO MUCH FOR ALL OF US AND NOT ALWAYS GETTING THE THANKS AND GRATITUDE AND SUPPORT THAT THEY NEEDED AND THAT IS REALLY WHEN IT ALL CAME TOGETHER AND I THOUGHT OKAY, I AM READY.

I AM READY TO WRITE THIS NOVEL.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT'S TIME AND I AM GOING TO GO FOR IT.

>> THE BOOK CENTERS ON FRANKIE McGRATH.

TELL ME, WHO IS SHE AND WHY IS SHE THE PERSON WHO BEST REPRESENTS WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO?

>> SHE'S NOT BASED ON ANY ACTUAL NURSE BUT SHE IS CERTAINLY INSPIRED BY SEVERAL OF THE NURSES WHOSE MEMOIRS I READ IN RESEARCH AND THEY HAD A LOT OF COMMONALITY WITH THE WOMEN.

A LOT OF THEM HAD COME FROM FAMILIES WHOSE PARENTS HAD PROUDLY SERVED AND -- IN WORLD WAR TWO, YOU KNOW, THE GREATEST GENERATION.

THEY HAD BEEN RAISED TO BE PATRIOTIC.

THEY ALSO CAME FROM THE CONSERVATIVE END OF THE 1950s AND A LOT OF THEM WERE EXTREMELY YOUNG, FRESH OUT OF NURSING SCHOOL AND SO I REALLY WANTED TO SHOW THE FULLNESS OF THE ARK OF A LOT OF NURSES.

NOT ALL OF THEM, OF COURSE, BUT GOING TO WAR, BEING WOEFULLY UNPREPARED EMOTIONALLY AND IN THEIR NURSING SKILLS AND THEN TO BECOME THESE AMAZING COMBAT COMPETENT NURSES AND COME HOME TO A COUNTRY THAT WAS VASTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE THEY LEFT, AND WHERE THEIR RECEPTION WAS UNEXPECTEDLY NEGATIVE FOR THEM, AND LEFT THEM FOR YEARS, TRYING TO COME TO TERMS WITH WHAT THEY HAD DONE AND HOW THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR FRIENDS IN THE COUNTRY FELT ABOUT WHAT THEY HAD DONE.

>> ONE OF THE MORE VISCERAL SCENES IN THE BOOK INVOLVE THE MEDICINE, INVOLVED BEING THERE WATCHING THESE PROCEDURES.

I THINK YOU ARE A LAPSED LAWYER, RIGHT?

HOW DID YOU GET ALL THAT MEDICAL STUFF, AND WHAT WAS YOUR POINT OF BEING SURREALISTIC AND ALMOST BRUTAL IN YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE MEDICINE?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS INTERESTING, WALTER, BECAUSE I REALLY MADE THAT CHOICE TO REALLY MAKE THESE SCENES IN THE SURGICAL UNITS VISCERAL AND BRUTAL AND DIFFICULT, AND THAT WAS FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

FIRST AND FOREMOST ON MY MIND WAS THAT OFTEN IN THIS WAR AND ANOTHER WARS WHEN A FEMALE VETS COME HOME AND SEEK HELP, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE SUFFERING FROM SOME KIND OF PTSD , ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THEY TEND TO HERE IS WELL, YOU WERE NOT IN COMBAT, BECAUSE WOMEN IN COMBAT OFFICIALLY IS A VERY RECENT THING, AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SHOW WHAT THEY HAD GONE THROUGH, BUT THEY HAVE LIVED THROUGH, WHY THEY WOULD HAVE EMOTIONAL TRAUMA STEMMING FROM THIS AFTERWARDS, AND SO THAT IS PART OF THE REASON IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO READ, BECAUSE I WANT THE READER TO UNDERSTAND, THIS SLICE OF WAR AND WHAT IT MEANS AND WHAT IT FEELS LIKE AND HOW IT AFFECTS YOU.

>> YOU ALSO TRIED VERY HARD TO CAPTURE THE DEVASTATION THAT HAPPENED TO THE VIETNAMESE CIVILIANS.

WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, THE THING ABOUT WRITING ABOUT THIS ERA, AND I HOPE ACTUALLY THAT THIS BOOK SPARKS A LOT OF OTHER FICTION ABOUT IT AND A LOT OF OTHER NONFICTION ABOUT IT BECAUSE I THINK THERE ARE SO MANY AVENUES TO BE EXPLORED AND STORIES TO BE TOLD, BUT WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO, YOU KNOW, WAS THE SINGLE WOMAN STORY OF ONE WOMAN GONE TO WAR, THAT REALLY ADDRESSED NOT ONLY THE FUTILITY OF WAR AND THE DIFFICULTIES ENDURED, BUT FROM ALL SIDES, HOW IT AFFECTED OTHER PEOPLE.

OBVIOUSLY, THE STORY OF THE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE AND THE CIVILIANS IS NOT MY STORY TO TELL, BUT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ME THAT IT FELT REAL.

>> YOU KNOW, FINDING LOVE AMID WAR, THE AFTERMATH OF WARS IS ONE OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOKS.

IN THIS CASE, I THINK ONE OF THE CLOSEST RELATIONSHIPS IS WITH TWO WOMEN, I THINK ETHEL AND BARB.

TELL US ABOUT THE FRIENDSHIP AND WHY YOU FOCUSED SO MUCH ON FEMALE FRIENDSHIP HERE?

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE ALL SO USED TO SEEING MALE CAMARADERIE DURING WAR AND WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK AND I SET OUT AND FRANKIE GOES TO WAR AND SHE ENDS UP IN VIETNAM AND SHE ENTERS HER HOOCH, WHICH IS THEIR LIVING QUARTERS, YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD'VE BEEN TWO WOMEN THERE AND I REALIZED THAT IN AS DIFFICULT A SETTING AS THIS, THOSE KIND OF FRIENDSHIPS AND THE HUMOR, THE LOVE, THE DIFFICULTY, THE INTENSITY, ALL OF THAT WOULD COME TO FRUITION AS A FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN THIS WOMEN TO SAVE EACH OTHER DURING THIS REALLY DIFFICULT YEAR AND SINCE FEMALE FRIENDSHIP IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME, I AM SUCH A BELIEVER IN THIS IDEA THAT WOMEN HOLD EACH OTHER UP, THAT WOMEN SPEAK OUT FOR EACH OTHER AND CARE FOR EACH OTHER, IT WAS REALLY GREAT TO HAVE THIS NOVEL THAT IS ABOUT WAR AND ABOUT THE AFTERMATH OF WAR TO ALSO BE ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTALS OF FRIENDSHIP AND THE IMPORTANCE OF FRIENDSHIP AND ABOUT WOMEN BEING ALMOST SOULMATES TO EACH OTHER THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES FACING THE NURSES WHEN THEY CAME HOME IS THAT THEIR SERVICE DID NOT COUNT FOR CERTIFICATION AS NURSING.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS AND WHAT WAS DONE ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING PART OF THE RESEARCH TO ME.

I WAS SHOCKED TO DISCOVER THAT, AS I SAID EARLIER, A LOT OF THESE WOMEN WENT TO WERE VERY YOUNG, RIGHT OUT OF NURSING SCHOOL OR JUST HAVING RECEIVED THEIR NURSING DIPLOMA DEGREES, AND SO HAD VERY LITTLE CLINICAL EXPERIENCE, AND YOU KNOW, THEN THEY GO TO WAR AND THEY ARE THROWN INTO THIS HELL OF COMBAT SURGERY AND SMASH UNITS AND YOU COULD TELL THROUGH THE BOOK AND I CAN CERTAINLY SEE THROUGH THE RESEARCH, THE LEVEL OF NURSING SKILLS THEY WERE ATTAINING OVER THERE , AND FROM SO MANY OF THEIR MEMOIRS AND FROM SPEAKING TO THEM, WHAT THEY FACED WHEN THEY CAME HOME WAS ALL TOO OFTEN A DISREGARD FOR EVERYTHING THEY HAD LEARNED OVER THERE AND SO IN OTHER WORDS, THE HOSPITALS AND THE PEOPLE HIRING THEM IN THE U.S.

WERE LOOKING AT THEIR U.S. SERVICE AND SEEING WELL YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE A BUNCH OF EXPERIENCE HERE SO LET'S START YOU AS A BEGINNER NURSE AGAIN, AND FOR A LOT OF THEM, I THINK THAT LEAD THEM OUT OF THE NURSING PROFESSION BECAUSE THEY HAD SO MUCH EXPERIENCE AND WERE NOT BEING REWARDED FOR THAT.

ALTHOUGH, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I MET A WOMAN WHO IS NOW A JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA, WHO WAS A FORMER ARMY NURSE AND I ASKED HER ABOUT THIS VERY POINT.

I SAID YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS IT LIKE COMING BACK AND BEING TREATED, YOU KNOW, AS A LESSER EXPERIENCED NURSE THAN YOU WERE AND SHE SAID WELL, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE IN VIETNAM, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT CHANGED IN THEM WAS THIS IDEA THAT ONCE THEY HAD BEEN THROUGH THAT AND COME HOME, THEY FELT THAT THEY COULD DO ANYTHING, AND SO A LOT OF THE WOMEN THAT I MET WERE NO DOCTORS OR DENTISTS OR JUDGES, YOU KNOW, SO THEY HAD GONE BACK TO SCHOOL TO BECOME SOMETHING ELSE.

>> THIS WORK IS A PIECE OF HISTORICAL FISSION, LIKE MANY OF YOUR WORKS, ESPECIALLY FAMOUSLY, "THE NIGHTINGALE," WHICH SOLD 4.5 MILLION COPIES.

WHEN YOU WRITE HISTORICAL FICTION, HOW MUCH RESEARCH DO YOU DO AND HISTORY BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY RICH TALE OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN THESE MEDICAL CAMPS IN VIETNAM?

>> IT DOES TAKE A LOT OF RESEARCH TO WRITE A REALLY AUTHENTIC-FEELING HISTORICAL NOVEL.

AS A LOT OF US KNOW, WHAT HISTORY WAS AND WHAT WE THINK HISTORY WAS IS NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING AND SO YOU ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO BE AS TRUTHFUL AND AS AUTHENTIC AND AS REAL AS YOU CAN BE WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF FICTION, BUT THIS ONE WAS PARTICULARLY, I GUESS, SCARY FOR ME TO SET OUT TO WRITE BECAUSE I KNEW THERE WOULD BE SO MANY READERS OF THIS NOVEL IT WOULD ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED THE WAR IN A WAY THAT I HAD NOT, AND SO IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME, ONCE I HAD DONE THE YEAR OF RESEARCH TO UNDERSTAND THE TIME AND THE EXPERIENCES, TO THEN SPEAK TO ACTUAL NURSES AND HELICOPTER PILOTS AND DOCTORS AND RED CROSS WORKERS TO MAKE SURE THAT I WAS TELLING THE STORY IN A REALLY AUTHENTIC AND TRUE WAY AND I WAS SO FORTUNATE TO COME INTO CONTACT WITH DIANE CARLSON EVANS, WHO IS A FORMER ARMY NURSE AND THE FOUNDER OF THE VIETNAM WOMEN'S MEMORIAL, AND SHE ENDED UP BEING MY MENTOR IN THIS AND SHE HAS BEEN JUST A PROFOUND HOUSE -- HELP, AND IT'S BEEN GREAT TO MEET SO MANY OF THESE NURSES AND SEE HOW MUCH IT MEANS TO THEM TO HAVE THE STORY TOLD.

>> TELL ME MORE ABOUT DIANE CARLSON EVANS, WHO WAS SORT OF YOUR HELPMATE, IN A WAY, IN WRITING THIS BOOK.

>> I WAS SO LUCKY TO FIND HER.

SHE HAD WRITTEN THIS BOOK CALLED HEALING WOUNDS, ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE AS A NURSE AND HER EXPERIENCE THEN COMING HOME AND CHANNELING HER ENERGY INTO THE FIGHT FOR A MEMORIAL THAT REMEMBERED HER SISTER VETERANS, AND IT WAS A DECADES-LONG FIGHT FOR HER.

I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH LAST NOVEMBER FOR VETERANS DAY TO GO TO WASHINGTON, D.C. FOR THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF THE WOMEN'S VIETNAM MEMORIAL WITH DIANE CARLSON EVANS AND TO SEE THESE -- LISTS GROUP OF FEMALE VIETNAM VETS AT THEIR MEMORIAL STANDING TOGETHER, TELLING THEIR STORIES.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE HUGGING, THEY WERE CRYING, THEY WERE INTRODUCING THEIR CHILDREN.

IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MOMENTS OF MY LIFE TO WATCH THAT, AND I OFTEN SAY NO, I FEEL LIKE MY BROTHER, WHO I LOST WHEN I WAS YOUNG, IS SOMEWHERE, AND PUT DIANE AND ME TOGETHER BECAUSE IT WAS AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE AND I AM SO PROUD OF HER AND I'M SO PROUD TO SAY THAT SHE HAS JUST BEEN NOMINATED FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANYONE WHO DESERVES IT MORE.

>> AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK, YOU HAVE FRANKIE TALKING ALMOST DIRECTLY TO THE READER AS IF IT WERE ALMOST YOU TALKING TO THE READER AND I'M GOING TO READ FROM THAT PORTION.

YOU SAID, FRANKIE WOULD NOT LET THEM BE FORGOTTEN ANYMORE.

SOMEHOW, SHE WOULD FIND A WAY TO TELL THE COUNTRY ABOUT HER SISTERS, THE WOMEN WITH WHOM SHE HAD SERVED, FOR THE NURSES WHO HAD DIED, FOR THEIR CHILDREN, FOR THE WOMEN WHO WOULD FOLLOW IN THE YEARS TO COME.

MAYBE, LIKE SO MANY THINGS, IT BEGAN SIMPLY WITH WORDS, SPEAKING UP, STANDING IN THE SUNLIGHT, COMING TOGETHER, DEMANDING HONESTY AND TRUTH, TAKING PRIDE.

THE WOMEN HAD A STORY TO TELL EVEN IF THE WORLD WAS NOT QUITE READY TO HEAR IT, AND THEIR STORY BEGINS WITH THREE SIMPLE WORDS.

WE WERE THERE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT NOTION OF YOU ALMOST TALKING DIRECTLY TO THE READER SAYING, HERE IS WHY I HAD TO DO THIS BOOK.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY IT.

YOU KNOW, AND INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I DON'T KNOW BUT I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT, THAT I WOULD'VE GONE THERE, THAT I WOULD'VE EXPECTED THAT TO BE THE ENDING PASS OF THIS NOVEL WHEN I STARTED, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED OVER THE PROCESS OF RESEARCHING THIS WAS EXACTLY THAT POINT, THAT IT IS A SO IMPORTANT, AND AGAIN I KEEP HITTING ON IT, TO REMEMBER PEOPLE WHO SACRIFICE ON OUR BEHALF AND TO HONOR THEM AND ESPECIALLY NOW, AS THEY ARE AGING, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE, AS A SOCIETY, ARE COLLECTING THE STORIES AND ARE SHOWING THAT WE THINK IT MATTERS.

>> KRISTIN HANNAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THIS HAS BEEN LOVELY.