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AND WELCOME TO AMMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
THEY ARE US.
NEW ZEALAND SHOWS COURAGE AND GRACE, AFTER THE DEVASTATING MASSACRE OF MUSLIM WORSHIPPERS.
AS THE PRIME MINISTER AND OPPOSITION LEADERS MADE CLEAR, GUN REFORM IS COMING, I SPEAK WITH THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH.
THEN, HOW DID THE TERRORIST BECOME RADICALIZED?
I TALKED TO A FORMER NEO NAZI WHO IS NOW FIGHTING AGAINST THIS EXTREMIST HATE.
AND WITH PROOF THAT THE TERRORIST WAS INSPIRED BY ANTI-NATIONALIST BALKANS WE LOOK AT THE GENOCIDE OF THE 1990s.
AND FINALLY LITTLE STEVEN VAN ZANDT, BRUCE SPRIG STEEN'S LEADMAN TALKS TO OUR WALTER ISAACSON.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANNE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
WHILE THE WORLD STILL REELS FROM ONE BRUTAL ASSAULT IN NEW ZEALAND, A NEW ATTACK, THIS TIME, IN THE DUTCH CITY OF UTRECHT, AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE ARE DEAD AFTER A MAN OPENED FIRE ON A TRAM.
NOW, DUTCH AUTHORITIES SAY THEY HAVE ARRESTED A SUSPECT OF TURKISH ORIGIN, AS OF NOW THOUGH, THE MOTIVE REMAINS UNCLEAR.
MEANWHILE, IN NEW ZEALAND, POLITICAL LEADERS HAVE SHOWN EXTRAORDINARY COMPASSION AND SOLIDARITY, COMING TOGETHER, TO SUPPORT MAJOR REFORMS, STARTING FIRST AND FOREMOST WITH THE COUNTRY'S GUN LAWS.
AS A CABINET, WE WERE ABSOLUTELY UNIFIED, AND VERY CLEAR.
THE TERROR ATTACK IN CHRISTCHURCH ON FRIDAY WAS THE WORST ACT OF TERRORISM ON OUR SHORES.
IT WAS IN FACT, ONE OF THE WORST GLOBALLY IN RECENT TIMES.
IT HAS EXPOSED A RANGE OF WITNESSES IN NEW ZEALAND'S GUN LAWS.
THE CLEAR HISTORY, AROUND THE WORLD, IS THAT TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITY SAFE, THE TIME TO ACT IS NOW.
THE VICTIMS OF THE TERROR ATTACK RANGE IN AGE FROM THREE TO 77.
THEY CAME TO NEW ZEALAND FROM COUNTRIES INCLUDING BANGLADESH, AFGHANISTAN, AND JORDAN, AND ONE OF THE MURDERED IS IN FACT, A SYRIAN REFUGEE FLEEING THE WAR IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.
AND WHILE THE FUNERALS IN CHRISTCHURCH HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN, THE CITY MOURNS AND STRUGGLES TO RETURN TO ITS DAY TO DAY ROUTINE.
CHRISTCHURCH MAYOR LEE ANN DALZIEL SAYS THE TERROR ATTACK WAS UNLIKE ANYTHING SHE HAS EVER IMAGINED IN HER CITY AND SHE IS JOINING US FROM THERE.
MADAM MAYOR, THANKS FOR JOINING US ON THIS DIFFICULT EVENING AND THESE DIFFICULT TIMES.
WE DO CONTINUE TO SEND YOU OUR CONDOLENCES.
HOW IS YOUR CITY COPING?
HOW ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES BANDING TOGETHER?
HOW DOES THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY FEEL TODAY?
I STILL THINK THAT WE'RE ALL IN A STATE OF SHOCK, AND A STATE OF DISBELIEF, THAT THIS COULD EVEN HAPPEN IN OUR CITY AND OUR COUNTRY.
AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A FEELING THAT HAS BEEN FELT ACROSS THE CITY, THE COUNTRY, AND INDEED THE WORLD, FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF CONCERN THAT I'VE RECEIVED, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THAT THEY CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN HERE.
BUT IF YOU CAN SEE THE FLORAL TRIBUTES, BEHIND ME, THEN IT IS THAT COMING TOGETHER, THE OUTPOURING OF LOVE, AND COMPASSION, AND KINDNESS THAT I HAVE HEARD REFLECTED BACK TO ME, AMONGST THE FAMILIES AND THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY, OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS HERE IN CHRISTCHURCH, THEY FEEL UTTERLY SUPPORTED BY THE WIDER COMMUNITY AT THIS TIME OF GRIEF AND TRAGEDY.
I DO INDEED SEE THE FLOW OF TRIBUTES.
AND I TAKE YOUR POINT, THAT NOBODY COULD IMAGINE THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS COULD HAVE HAPPENED IN NEW ZEALAND, OF ALL PLACES.
WHICH IS KNOWN FOR ITS DIVERSITY, FOR ITS WELCOMING OF REFUGEES, FOR ITS PEACE, AND AS I SAID, EVEN, EVEN BILLIONAIRES FROM THE UNITED STATES ARE TRYING TO ESCAPE TO NEW ZEALAND FOR, YOU KNOW, SOME PEACE AND QUIET IN THIS TERRIBLE WORLD.
SO SHOULD WE BE SURPRISED THAT THIS HAPPENED IN NEW ZEALAND?
WAS THERE ANYTHING THAT COULD HAVE LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS THIS RISING WHITE NATIONALISM IN YOUR MIDST?
I THINK THE POINT THAT I HAD MADE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS IS THIS HATRED, THIS CRIMINAL INTENT WAS NOT BORN OF OUR COUNTRY.
IT WAS IMPORTED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ATTACKING A SAFE CITY, AND A SAFE COUNTRY.
AND I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE THE TIME TO EVEN THE EXTREMIST VIEWS OF THOSE WHO HAVE GIVEN CREDENCE TO THE PERSON WHO HAS PERPETRATED THESE TERRIBLE CRIMES.
BUT I THINK THAT THAT SENSE OF DELIBERATENESS ASKS US TO RESPOND IN A WAY THAT SAYS WE WILL NOT BE DIVIDED BY THE HATRED.
WE WILL BE UNITED BY THE LOVE AND THE COMPASSION THAT WE SEE REFLECTED BEHIND ME.
SO I THINK THE POINT THAT THE PRIME MINISTER MADE, THAT THIS IS NOT OUR CITY, THIS IS NOT OUR COUNTRY, THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE, THE EXPRESSIONS BEHIND US, THAT'S WHO WE ARE, WE COME TOGETHER AT TIMES LIKE THIS, AND WE WILL SUPPORT THIS COMMUNITY, AND AS I WILL SAY TO THEM, WE WILL SUPPORT THEM FOREVER.
IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF SOMETHING THAT JUST STARTS AND ENDS WITH THE BURIALS OF THEIR LOVED ONES.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CONTINUES FOREVER.
AND WE DO HAVE TO REFLECT ON THE CAUSES OF THIS HATRED THAT PERMEATES THE WORLD, THAT HAS BEEN IMPORTED INTO OUR COUNTRY, AND WE MUST MAKE SURE THAT WE JOIN THE REST OF THE WORLD TO ENSURE THAT IT IS STUFFED OUT.
YOU KNOW, AS YOU WERE SPEAKING, WE SAW SOME PICTURES OF THE PRIME MINISTER, WHO CAME TO CHRISTCHURCH, AND HER WORDS AND HER ACTIONS HAVE SPOKEN VOLUMES.
SHE HAS DRESSED HERSELF IN RESPECTFUL CLOTHING, WEARING THE HEAD SCARF, SHE HAS BEEN HUGGING MANY OF THE FAMILY WAS THE VICTIMS, AND WE'VE HEARD FROM THEM HOW MUCH THEY APPRECIATE THE TOUCHES THAT SHE HAS DELIVERED, THE RESPECT AND THE COMPASSION THAT SHE HAS SHOWED.
AND I JUST WONDER, BECAUSE YOU DO CORRECTLY POINT OUT THAT THIS WAS AN IMPORTED ACT OF HATE, AN IMPORTED PRE-MEDITATED TRAINING ZONE FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S NOT A NEW ZEALANDER, AND THE PRIME MINISTER, WHEN SHE WAS ASKED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHAT HE COULD DO, AND WHAT THE U.S. COULD DO, WAS VERY CLEAR SHE SAID, AND I'M PARAPHRASING, LOVE MUSLIM COMMUNITIES WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM.
I WONDER IF IT IS APPROPRIATE TO REFLECT ON WHAT WORLD LEADERS IN THE WEST HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT MUSLIMS, ABOUT REFUGEES, ABOUT NATIONALISM AT THIS TIME.
I THINK THAT THE IMPORTANT THING FOR ME IS AS WE'RE SITTING HERE WHAT THE CITY LEADERS FROM ACROSS THE WORLD HAVE BEEN SAYING AND THE LOVE AND COMPASSION THAT THEY HAVE SHOWN OUR CITY.
I HAVE WRITTEN TO MAYORS OF OTHER CITIES, WHEN THEY TOO HAVE FACED TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THEIR CITIES, AND I THINK THAT CITY LEADERS HAVE BANDED TOGETHER ACROSS THE WORLD TO ACTUALLY UNITE AGAINST THIS FORM OF TERRORISM, THIS FORM OF WHITE SUPREMACISTS, THIS IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS, BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THEY WERE BORN INTO THIS WORLD.
WE ARE BORN EQUAL.
WE LIVE EQUAL.
AND WE WILL DIE EQUAL.
BUT WE MUST STOP THIS VIOLENCE, THIS PERPETRATION OF TERROR AGAINST A CITY, AND SO FROM A CITY PERSPECTIVE, AND THAT'S WHERE I STAND, AS THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH, I STAND ALONGSIDE MAYORS ACROSS THE WORLD, THAT WE HAVE TO STAND TOGETHER TO STOP THIS.
WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THIS FROM THE GRASS ROOTS.
IT IS NEIGHBORS LOOKING AFTER NEIGHBORS.
IT IS COMMUNITIES LOOKING OUT FOR COMMUNITIES.
IT IS CITY LEADERS PROVIDING THEIR LEADERSHIP.
THAT IS WHAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE AT THE CITY LEVEL, AND YES, OUR NATIONAL LEADERS MUST JOIN ALSO TO ENSURE THAT THOSE COUNTRIES THAT SEE DIVISIONS, ARE GIVEN VOICE TO, THAT THEY ARE UNITED IN CONDEMNATION OF WHAT HAS OCCURRED HERE, AND THEIR COMMITMENT TO ENSURE THAT IT DOESN'T EVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
YOU HAVE BEEN MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH FOR NEARLY SEVEN YEARS NOW IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN AND YOU HAVE ALL SAID, I BELIEVE, THE PRIME MINISTER, YOURSELF, EVEN LEADERS OF THE OPPOSITION HAVE SAID, NO MATTER WHAT WE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT IN THE PAST, THIS HAS CHANGED NEW ZEALAND.
THIS CALLS FOR A CHANGE OF RHETORIC, AND A CHANGE OF ACTION.
SO YOU HAVE HAD LEADERS WHO HAVE SAID UNPLEASANT THINGS ABOUT REFUGEES, AND MUSLIMS, AND ALSO, THE GUN ISSUE.
DO YOU BELIEVE REALLY THAT THIS HORROR WILL HAVE SUFFICIENTLY MOTIVATED THEM, TO CHANGE THE RHETORIC, ON THE ONE HAND, AND TOUGHEN UP THE GUN LAWS AND THE PRIME MINISTER'S ASKING, I BELIEVE, FOR AN ELIMINATION OF SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS AND THE LIKE.
WHAT CAN WE EXPECT NOW FROM LEADERS ACROSS THE BOARD?
PRIOR TO BECOMING THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH I WAS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR 23 YEARS.
I HAVE SERVED AS A CABINET MINISTER IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND THE LAWS HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT BEFORE.
THEY HAVE NOT BEEN STRENGTHENED SUFFICIENTLY IN TERMS OF THE ARMS LEGISLATION.
I TOTALLY SUPPORT THE PRIME MINISTER IN BRINGING TOGETHER ALL OF THE PARTIES TO LOOK FOR THAT UNITY THAT I BELIEVE THAT SHE CAN MUSTER ON THIS OCCASION IN RESPONSE TO WHAT HAS OCCURRED.
I BELIEVE SHE CAN DO IT.
APART FROM THE SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, I THINK THE ACCUMULATION OF WEAPONS IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH.
WE ARE LOOKING AT PEOPLE, THE PROPER PERSONS TO CARRY ARMS, TO OWN FIREARMS, NOT TO CARRY ARMS, WE DID HAVE THAT RIGHT TO CARRY ARMS IN OUR STREETS AND IT MUST STAY THAT WAY OF COURSE, BUT I THINK THE REAL ISSUE HERE IS PEOPLE CAN ACCUMULATE GUNS AND I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT ALL WEAPONS ARE REGISTERED, SO THAT WE KNOW WHERE ALL OF THOSE WEAPONS ARE.
IF ONE THING CAN COME OF THIS, WELL, ACTUALLY, IT IS NOT ENOUGH THAT IT IS JUST THE GUN LAWS THAT CHANGE.
I THINK THAT WE DO NEED TO LOOK AT ATTITUDE AND ANYTHING THAT GIVES COMFORT TO THOSE THAT HOLD EXTREMIST VIEWS, AND THAT IS SOMETHING NOT FOR NOW, BUT FOR THE FUTURE.
AFTER THE FAMILIES HAVE BEEN GIVEN TIME TO GRIEVE, TO BURY THEIR LOVED ONES, AND IN A SUITABLE PERIOD OF MOURNING TO OCCUR, AFTER THAT, WE MUST SIT DOWN, AND REFLECT ON WHAT WE CAN DO TO CHANGE OUR CITY, OUR COUNTRY, FOR THE BETTER.
AND JUST VERY FINALLY AND BRIEFLY, DO YOU INCLUDE THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, THE BIG GIANTS, AS WE KNOW, THE MAN SPECIFICALLY WANTED THIS TO GO AROUND ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND BROADCAST IT, STREAMED IT LIVE.
YES, THAT'S MY INTENTION, AS THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH, WHERE THIS ATROCITY HAS OCCURRED, TO TAKE THIS ISSUE TO FACEBOOK, AND PARTICULAR, AS THE FIRST INSTANCE RECORDING, AND THE MEANS BY WHICH THIS VIAL VIDEO WAS ABLE TO BE SENT AROUND THE WORLD.
I BELIEVE THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS AN ENORMOUS RESPONSIBILITY NOW TO RESPOND TO WHAT HAS OCCURRED, TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS SORT OF FILMING IS NOT ABLE, NOT CAPABLE OF BEING DISTRIBUTED.
THEY MUST BE HELD TO ACCOUNT.
AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE AN ABSOLUTE RESPONSIBILITY TO SPEAK OUT NOW, TO APPLY ALL OF THEIR INTELLIGENCE, THEIR INTELLECT, THEIR ABILITY, AND THEY MUST HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO ENSURE THAT THIS STOPS, AND TO STOP THE USE OF THEIR PLATFORMS FOR THE DISTRIBUTION OF HATE SPEECH.
THAT'S WHAT FUELS THESE ACTIONS.
WE HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR.
MAYOR DALZIEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US FROM CHRISTCHURCH.
> WELL, WESTERN MEDIA IS FLOODED WITH ANTI-MUSLIM CONTENT AND ISLAMOPHOBIA SATURATES SOCIAL MEDIA, WHITE EXTREMIST TERROR IS LITTLE COVERED, AND PERHAPS EVEN LESS UNDERSTOOD.
CHRISTIAN PUCILINI KNOWS THAT WORLD ALL TOO WELL, HE IS A FORMER NEO NAZI WHO TURNED AWAY FROM HIS OWN WHITE SUPREMACIST PAST AND NOW HE HELPS LEAD THE FREE RADICALS PROJECTS WHERE HE HELPS TODAY'S EXTREMISTS FIND THEIR WAY OUT OF THEIR WORLD VIEW, THAT WORLD VIEW OF HATE.
HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED 'WHITE AMERICAN YOUTH KWR, MY DISSENT THE HATE MOVEMENT AND HOW I GOT OUT' WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT THEN.
IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE YOU TALK TO US TODAY, TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED, IF THERE IS ANY UNDERSTANDING, BUT TO UNDERSTAND FROM YOU, PERHAPS, FROM YOUR STORY, WHAT LED NEW THAT WORLD, AND HOW YOU GOT OUT OF THAT WORLD.
WHY DID YOU BECOME A NEO-NAZI FOR INSTANCE?
WELL, THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION, AND I THINK ONE THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE A GRASP ON, AND WHAT I CAN TELL PEOPLE IS THE HUNDREDS THAT I'VE WORKED, INCLUDING MYSELF, AT 14 YEARS OLD, IN 1987 WHEN I WAS RECRUITED, IDEOLOGY WAS SIMPLY THE OUTPUT.
IT WAS SIMPLY THE LAST ELEMENT THAT HAD TO FALL IN PLACE TO ENACT THAT TYPE OF VIOLENCE, TO GO DOWN THAT PATH.
BECAUSE OUR PRE-RADICALIZATION HAPPENED BECAUSE OF TRAUMA, BECAUSE OF ABUSE, BECAUSE OF ALIENATION, OR LONELILESS, OR SOCIAL AWKWARDNESS, AND THAT IS THE SAME STORY THAT EVERY PERSON I'VE EVER WORKED WITH HAS HAD.
THE IDEOLOGY THEN BECOMES LIKE A SUIT OF ARMOR.
IT GIVES US A REASON THEN TO BLAME SOMEBODY ELSE FOR OUR PAIN.
SO I THINK IF WE WANT TO COMBAT THIS, WE HAVE TO APPROACH IT MUCH LIKE DR. JONAS SALK DID WITH POLIO, WE HAVE TO TREAT THE SICK, THOSE ARE ARE WHO ARE AFFLICTED WITH THIS BUT WE NEED TO INOCULATE THE POPULATION FROM GETTING SICK AND WE DO THAT BY ACKNOWLEDGING A THREAT EXISTS AND CURRENTLY WE'RE NOT DOING THAT AND FRANKLY EVERY ADMINISTRATION THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS EVER HAD HAS NEVER FOCUSED ON DOMESTIC EXTREMISM.
THIS IS THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION THAT I'VE SEEN ACTUALLY INFLAME THOSE TYPES OF IDEAS.
LET'S TAKE IT A LITTLE BIT OF IT AT A TIME.
YOU TALK ABOUT INOCULATING JONAS SALK AND POLIO, THIS IS THE SEVERAL TIME, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, THAT I'M HEARING SOME OF THESE MASS SHOOTING, TERRORISMS, BEING DESCRIBED AS EPIDEMIC AND CONTAGIONS, AND I WONDER IS THAT CORRECT, DO YOU FEEL THAT, IT IS SORT OF LIKE AN EPIDEMIC AND YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT AND IF SO, HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT IN THAT CASE?
TO MY PRE-RADICALIZATION THEORY APPLIES TO OUR STATE OF AFFAIRS RIGHT NOW.
ON OUR LIFE'S JOURNEY, WE HIT POTHOLES AND THOSE ARE THE TRAUMAS, THE PAINS, AND THOSE DEVIATE US BUT WE'RE SEARCHING FOR IDENTITY, COMMUNITY, AND PURPOSE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE FIRST BREAKING AWAY FROM THE INFLUENCE OF FAMILY.
NOW, IN REAL LIFE, THE INTERNET IS PLAYING A MAJOR ROLE HERE BECAUSE THEY ARE ABLE TO FIND THEIR IDENTITY, COMMUNITY, AND PURPOSE ONLINE.
AND THERE ARE MILLIONS OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO MAY FEEL ALIENATED, WHO MAY BE MARGINALIZED, WHO MIGHT BE BULLIED, WHO ARE THEN FINDING ACCEPTANCE IN THESE GROUPS, AND FRANKLY, IT IS THE FASTEST-GROWING UNDERGROUND SOCIAL MOVEMENT I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFETIME.
AND THAT'S SO TERRIFYING.
BECAUSE OF COURSE, WE'VE ALSO, RIGHTLY, BEEN DEALING WITH THE THREAT OF ISLAMIC RADICAL EXTREMIST TERRORISM SINCE 9/11, OBVIOUSLY BEFORE, BUT IN A MAJOR WAY SINCE 9/11, AND NOW, PEOPLE'S MINDS AND PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS AND LAW AND ORDER HAVE TO SHIFT ALL THE WAY AROUND, TO THIS, WHAT YOU SAY, FASTEST-GROWING UNDERGROUND RADICALIZATION THAT YOU'RE SEEING AND I'M HEARING THAT FROM OTHERS AS WELL.
WHAT WAS THE ATTRACTION FOR YOU?
HOW DID YOU GET GROOMED INTO THIS, IF I COULD JUST PUT IT THAT WAY?
WELL, YOU KNOW, MY PARENTS ARE ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS WHO CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE MID 1960s.
BUT THEY HAD TO WORK A LOT.
SO THEY WERE GONE SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
SOMETIMES 16 HOURS A DAY.
RUNNING A SMALL BUSINESS.
AND GROWING UP, I FELT ABANDONED.
SO IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THE LOSS OF A PARENT FOR ME.
AND THAT WAS A TRAUMA THAT LED ME TO THE FRINGES.
I WAS BULLIED GROWING UP.
I DIDN'T HAVE A SENSE OF IDENTITY.
AND THIS IS REALLY THE CONSTANT STORY THAT IS THE THREAD, WITH EVERYBODY THAT I'VE EVER WORKED WITH.
AND WHEN YOU READ PRESUMABLY, YOU READ A LOT NOW, ABOUT THIS PERSON, IN NEW ZEALAND, WHO LITERALLY, AS THEY SAY, YOU HEARD THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH, THIS WAS NOT ONE OF US, THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO GOT UP FROM HIS OWN COUNTRY, CAME OVER HERE, PLANNED IT, AND IN METICULOUS DETAIL, ALL THE WAY TO GOING TO THE BALKANS, AND YOU KNOW, GETTING SORT OF EXAMPLE FROM WHAT HAPPENED THERE, THE NATIONALIST WARS IN THE 1990s.
WHEN YOU SEE HIM, AND YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID ABOUT BEING EUROPEAN, AND PROUD, AND WHITE, AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO, THIS CONCEPT OF SORT OF WHITE GENOCIDE THAT IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE TALKED ABOUT IN PUBLIC, TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT?
SO, SADLY, OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, THERE WAS A VERY STRATEGIC PLAN IN PLACE, BY WHITE SUPREMACISTS, TO BLEND IN.
IN THE 1980s AND 90s, WE RECOGNIZED THAT AMERICAN WHITE RACISTS WERE EVEN BEING TURNED AWAY BY OUR EDGINESS, SO THE PLAN WAS TO GROW OUR HAIR OUT, TO CHANGE OUR BOOTS INTO SUITS, TO GET JOBS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, TO GET TRAINING IN THE MILITARY, AND EVE TO RUN FOR OFFICE, IF OUR RECORDS WERE CLEAN.
AND THE WHOLE IDEA WAS TO BLEND IN, WAS TO NORMALIZE, AND MAKE THE IDEOLOGY MORE PALATABLE.
AS A COVERT WAY TO INFLUENCE OTHER PEOPLE.
BUT I CAN TELL YOU OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, WHILE THAT'S HAPPENED, WHAT HAS ALSO HAPPENED IS THE BIRTH OF THE INTERNET.
AND WE'VE SEEN PROPAGANDA AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES BEING FLOODED IN FROM RUSSIA AND FROM EASTERN EUROPE, THAT ARE -PORTR WHITE NATIONALIST ACCOUNTS.
BUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE INFLUENCING REAL PEOPLE ON THE DISCUSSION.
AND IN MANY CASES I SAW FAKE BLACK LIVES MATTERS ACCOUNTS THAT WERE INFLUENCING PEOPLE.
AND THEY CREATED ACCOUNTS FROM ALL OF THE ELEMENTS AROUND THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND FLOOD THE INTERNET WITH REAL OUTLANDIC PROPAGANDA, SO THE REAL PEOPLE THEN GET INVOLVED IN THE DISCUSSION.
BUT THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO CHAT ROOM, THEY'RE GOING TO FORUMS FOR DEPRESSION, THEY'RE TRYING TO RECRUIT YOUNG KIDS OVER HEADSETS WHILE PLAYING MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE GAME, AND THEY'RE GOING TO FORUMS THAT ARE DEDICATED TO AUTISM, AND OTHER MENTAL DISORDERS, BECAUSE THEY'RE HOPING THAT THEY WILL FIND PEOPLE THERE THAT MAYBE MARGINALIZED IN REAL LIFE, SO THEY CAN PROMISE THEM SOME SORT OF A NARRATIVE OF EMPOWERMENT.
OH, MY GOD, THAT IS THE SCARIEST THING I'VE HEARD.
I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC KIND OF PENETRATION OF VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES IN THAT REGARD.
THAT IS REALLY TERRIFYING.
SO THEN LET ME ASK YOU, THE UNCOMFORTABLE QUESTION, YOU DID ALLUDE TO IT AT THE BEGINNING, I THINK YOU SAID, I HAVE NEVER SEEN OUR LEADERSHIP SORT OF AIDING AND ABETTING THIS KIND OF NATIONALISM.
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TWEETED YET AGAIN THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA, FAKE NEWS IS, TRYING TO BLAME HIM, AND ET CETERA.
BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF LEADERS, WHETHER IN THE UNITED STATES, IN WESTERN EUROPE, ALL THE WAY TO HUNGARY, AND ELSEWHERE, WHO DO WHIP UP THESE VERY NATIONALISTIC UNFRIENDLY FEELINGS?
DO THEY ADD TO THE GROOMING POOL, IF YOU, SO TO SPEAK?
WELL, ABSOLUTELY.
BECAUSE THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MEDIA TODAY IS THAT IT ISN'T JUST LIMITED TO YOUR GEOGRAPHIC AREA.
THOSE WORDS TRAVEL FAR AND WIDE.
AND WE'VE SEEN THOSE WORDS NOW QUOTED IN MANIFESTOS.
WE'VE SEEN THOSE WORDS NOW USED TO INSPIRE PEOPLE TO SEND PIPE BOMBS TO POLITICIANS AND TO MEDIA.
AND WE'VE SEEN THE EFFECTS OF IT, IN SYNAGOGUES, AND NOW, IN A MOSQUE IN NEW ZEALAND.
I CAN TELL YOU MY WIFE AND I WERE IN NEW ZEALAND FOR OUR ANNIVERSARY TRIP, JUST A MONTH AGO, AND IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST SPECTACULAR PLACES THAT I'VE EVER SEEN, BUT ALSO ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE AND ONE OF THE FRIENDLIEST PLACES AND THE REASON THAT THEY CHOOSE PLACES LIKE THIS, FOR THESE ACTS OF TERROR IS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY'RE SAFE PLACES.
THEY WANT US TO KNOW THAT THEY CAN PENETRATE US, WHEREVER WE GO.
THAT'S VERY TERRIFYING.
AND BRIEFLY, HOW DID YOU GET OUT OF THIS WELL OF DARKNESS THAT YOU WERE IN?
WELL, IT'S THE ONLY THING I'VE EVER SEEN BREAK HATE, NOT JUST FOR MYSELF BUT FOR ANYBODY ELSE THAT I'VE EVER WORKED WITH AND THAT WAS RECEIVING COMPASSION FROM THE PEOPLE THAT I LEAST DESERVED IT FROM, STRANGERS AT A TIME WHEN I LEAST DESERVED IT.
IT HELPED DESTROY THE DEMONIZATION THAT WAS IN MY HEAD, BECAUSE THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I HAD EVER HAD A MEANINGFUL INTERACTION WITH SOMEBODY I THOUGHT I HATED AND IT WAS THAT EMPATHY AND THAT COMPASSION THAT HUMANIZED THEM.
AND ALLOWED ME TO SEE THE ERROR IN MY WAYS.
IT IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US THAT BENEFIT OF YOUR EXPERTISE AND YOUR EXPERIENCE ON THIS.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, AS WE SAID, A DISTURBING ASPECT OF THE NEW ZEALAND ATTACK IS THE ACCUSED TERRORIST FIXATION ON THE BALKANS WITH HIS LONG SENTRIES OLD HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM CONFLICT.
HE VISITED THE REGION.
HE EVEN PLAYED A NATIONALIST SERB SONG FROM THE 1992-95 BOSNIAN WAR, WHILE DRIVING TO THE FIRST CITECHURCH MOSQUE.
ONE OF THE MOST INFAMOUS FIGURES FROM THAT WAR IS RATKO MLADIC, HE WAS COMMANDER OF THE BOSNIAN SERB ARMY AND UNDER HIS COMMAND, GENOCIDE WAS CARRIED OUT AGAINST THE COUNTRY'S MUSLIM POPULATION.
RATKO MLADIC WAS INDICTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA IN THE HAGUE BACK IN 2012.
AND AFTER A MARATHON TRIAL, HE WAS CONVICTED OF WAR CRIMES AND GENOCIDE IN 2017.
MY NEXT GUEST, DIRECTOR HENRY SINGER, HAS MADE AN EXTRAORDINARY DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE FOUR-YEAR TRIAL, WITH UNPRECEDENTED BEHIND THE SCENES ACCESS TO THE HISTORIC COURTROOM DRAMA.
THE FILM IS CALLED 'THE TRIAL OF RATKO MLADIC' AND HERE IS A CLIP.
PLEASE BE WARNED, IT DOES INCLUDE DISTURBING IMAGES.
THE INDICTMENT CHARGED, TWO COUNTS OF GENOCIDE AND FIVE COUNTS OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
NAMELY, PROSECUTION, MURDER, EXTERMINATION, DEPORTATION, AND THE INHUMAN ACT OF FORCIBLE TRANSFER.
THIS IS A WAR I COVERED.
I EVEN INTERVIEWED RATKO MLADIC, SO I'M REALLY INTERESTED TO TALK TO HENRY SINGER, CO DIRECTOR OF 'THE TRIAL OF RATKO MLADIC' WHO IS JOINING ME HERE NOW.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
LET'S START BY SAYING HOW TIMELY THIS INVESTIGATION INTO HOW THIS NATIONALISM AND THIS WHITE SUPREMACY BOILS OVER, GIVEN WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW, IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE.
IT IS LIKE THE BALKANS SORT OF WITH A PRECURSOR ALMOST, TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW.
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WHEN WE STARTED THE FILM, WE HAD NO IDEA OBVIOUSLY THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE SO SADLY TOPICAL.
WE WANTED TO MAKE THE FILM BECAUSE IT WAS, IT IS AN HISTORIC TRIAL, AND MY CO DIRECTOR FELT NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE ICTY IS.
THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY INSTITUTION.
AND YET IN THE SIX YEARS IT TOOK TO MAKE THIS FILM, THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.
WE'VE SEEN TRUMP AS PRESIDENT, BREXIT, WE HAVE A LOT OF ANTI-IMMIGRATION RHETORIC, AND A LOT OF IT AS YOU SAY, IS BUILT ON NATIONALISM.
SO IN A FUNNY KIND OF WAY, THIS TRIAL AND THIS FILM, AND THE WAR IN THE BALKANS, IS A KIND OF, A PAST MICROCOSM OF SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS WE'RE SEEING TODAY.
SO I WANT TO PLAY ONE OF THE CLIPS.
WE'VE GOT SEVERAL CLIPS, IT IS IMPORTANT, IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO TELL THE STORY.
THE FIRST ONE I WANT TO PLAY IS WITH THE PROSECUTOR, HE IS AN AMERICAN, PETER McCLOSKI, DETAILING TO THE COURT THE EVENTS OF JULY 11, THE LAST MASSACRE THAT TOOK PLACE, AND FOR WHICH RATKO MLADIC AND HIS POLITICAL HENCH MEN WERE INDICTED FOR GENOCIDE AND OTHER CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
AND THIS IS WHAT THEY TOLD THE COURT.
BY THE AFTERNOON OF 11 JULY, RATKO MLADIC AND HIS FORCES ENTERED SBREIZA AND THEY FOUND IT ALMOST COMPLETELY VACANT.
THE MASTER OF SOMETHING.
BRIEFLY .
AFTER THIS OMINOUS REMARK ABOUT REVENGE, HIS TROOPS CAPTURED AND SYSTEMATICALLY MURDERED THOUSANDS OF MEN AND BOYS.
IT DOES STILL BRING CHILLS TO ME.
I COVERED THE AFTERMATH, OBVIOUSLY, OF THE SBRENICZA MASSACRE AND I COVERED THE WAR AND I EVEN SPOKE TO RATKO MLADIC.
THERE HE IS, SWAGGERING IN THIS ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE, BUT IN THE COURT, AFTER YEARS ON THE RUN, AFTER YEARS HIDING OUT, HE APPEARS TO BE THIS BROKEN MAN.
HE'S HAD STROKES.
WAS HE COMPOS-MENTIS.
HOW DID YOU ASSESS HIM IN COURT?
I THINK HE WAS LARGELY COMPOST-MENTIS.
WE TRIED TO GET ACCESS TO HIM AND HE PLAYED TO US TO SOME EXTENT AND WE SAW THE RATKO MLADIC, THE ONE YOU WERE NO DOUBT FAMILIAR WITH AS YOU COVERED THE WAR BECAUSE HE WOULD SAY HE WANTED TO DO IT AND HE WANTED A LETTER, HE WANTED A LETTER TO INTERVIEW AND IT WOULD BE FORGOTTEN AND HE WOULD RETRACT IT.
IN THE COURTROOM, MOST OF THE TIME HE WAS QUITE CALM.
MOST OF THE TIME HE WATCHED PROCEEDINGS.
HIS HEALTH, TERRIBLE HEALTH WHEN HE ARRIVED, BECAME MUCH, MUCH BETTER UNDER THE CARE IN THE DETENTION CENTER OF THE MEDICAL AUTHORITIES IN THE DETENTION CENTER.
SO, BUT AS A RESULT, WE SAW THE OCCASIONAL FLARE-UP.
BUT FOR MOST OF THE TIME, ACROSS THE TRIAL, AND WE SAW IN THE OPENING OF THE TRIAL, HE MADE IT A MOTION LIKE THIS TO MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC GALLERY, SO YOU OCCASIONALLY WOULD SEE WHAT I WOULD CALL THE MLADIC THAT YOU KNEW IN THE '90s.
THE REST OF THE TIME, RATHER PASS IVE.
UNTIL, AS VIEWERS WILL SEE AGAIN IN THE FILM, HE HAS AN OUTBURST AT THE END OF THE FILM, WHERE HE BASICALLY SAYS THE COURT IS A KANGAROO COURT, IT IS CREATED BY NATO, ET CETERA.
SO IN THE FILM, WE HAD TO USE CLIPS LIKE THAT TO TRY TO REMIND THE VIEWERS OF WHO MLADIC THE WARRIOR WAS, BECAUSE WE WORRIED THEY WOULD FORGET WHO WAS ON TRIAL.
IT WASN'T THIS OLD FRAIL MAN.
IT WAS A MAN WHO YOU SAW IN THE CLIP YOU JUST SHOWED.
THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.
I WILL PLAY A CLIP OF A SWAGGERING MLADIC THAT I INTERVIEWED IN 1993, TWO YEARS BEFORE THE HAGUE COURT WAS BEING ESTABLISHED AND I ASKED HIM THE FOLLOWING QUESTION.
UNDER ANY KIND OF U.N.
TRIBUNAL, HE MAY HAVE TO BE PROSECUTED.
WHAT DOES HE THINK ABOUT THAT?
WELL, IT IS A TOUGH QUESTION, BUT HE'S A TOUGH MAN AND HE CAN ANSWER IT.
YES, I CAN TAKE IT.
I'VE TAKEN MORE ROUGH ONES.
I CAN TAKE HERS, TOO.
I DEFENDED MY PEOPLE.
AND ONLY MY PEOPLE CAN JUDGE ME.
AND THERE'S NO GREATER HONOR THAN DEFENDING YOUR PEOPLE.
SO I PLAY THAT, BECAUSE IT SHOWS HIS SWAGGER, HIS ARROGANCE, AND HIS VICTIMHOOD, HE ALWAYS SAID THAT THE SERBS WERE BEING ATTACKED AND HE WAS DEFENDING HIS PEOPLE.
HOW DID THAT GO DOWN IN THE COURT?
AND HOW DID -- YOU HAD UNBELIEVABLE ACCESS TO HIS OWN DEFENSE TEAM AS WELL.
IT IS JUST REMARKABLE.
AND HIS SON.
WELL, AS YOU KNOW, THAT REGION, THE PAST IS THE PRESENT.
AND EVERY ETHNIC POPULATION HAS THEIR OWN NARRATIVE.
AND AS YOU SAY, THE SERBS HAVE A NARRATIVE OF VICTIMHOOD, GOING RIGHT BACK TO THE INVASION OF THE TURKS AND THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE IN THE 14th CENTURY.
HOW DID IT PLAY IN THE COURTROOM?
I DON'T, FROM WHAT WE OBSERVED, I DON'T KNOW THAT, I THINK WHAT THE COURT WAS INTERESTED IN WAS IN FACTS.
IT WASN'T, YOU KNOW, THE DEFENSE WOULD BRING ON WITNESSES, TO TALK ABOUT THAT NARRATIVE.
AND I, IN WATCHING THE COURT, AND CERTAINLY IN THEIR VERDICT, IT WAS ACTUALLY CLEAR THAT THAT, I DON'T THINK THAT PLAYED PARTICULARLY WELL.
WE KNOW, AND THE FILM SHOWS THAT HE BECAME, HE WAS GUILTY OF TEN OF 11 OF THE COUNT, THE ONLY COUNT HE WAS GUILTY OF WAS IN THE COUNT OF GENOCIDE IN THE MUNICIPALITIES.
HE WAS CONVICTED OF A COUNT --
ABSOLUTELY.
I WANT TO PLAY A PIECE OF REAL FOOTAGE FROM THE TIME.
AND THIS WAS SHOT BY THE SERBS FOR THEIR OWN PROPAGANDA DURING THE FALL OF SBRENICZA AND WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO TEMP THE MUSLIMS DOWN FROM HIDING AND BEFORE THEY MASSACRED HIM.
HERE IS THIS POOR FATHER WHO IS BEING MADE TO CALL FOR HIS SON, WHO ESCAPED TO FREEDOM THROUGH THE FOREST.
LET'S PLAY THIS.
BJORNS HELPING ME WITH A CLIP OF A MUSLIM MAN, ARAMO, HE'S CALLING, THE SERBS ARE MAKING HIM TO CALL OUT TO BRING OTHER MUSLIMS OUT OF THE WOODS, AND HE'S CALLING HIS SON NURMAN.
IT IS REALLY CHILLING, AGAIN, TO WATCH THAT.
I MEAN SUCH A STAGED DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO, YOU KNOW, SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL.
WE EDITED THIS FILM FOR NEARLY A YEAR, AND I WATCHED THAT ON THE MONITOR JUST NOW AND IT STILL BRINGS CHILLS TO MY SPINE.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY AWFUL.
AND THE WIFE OF THAT GENTLEMAN, A WOMAN WHO WAS AN IMPORTANT WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION, FOR PETER McCLOSKI, THE PROSECUTOR YOU JUST SAW.
WE SHOWED HER AT HOME.
SHE LIVES IN THE HOUSE WHERE HER TWO SONS LIVED.
BOTH DIED.
AND HER HUSBAND DIED.
YOU SAW IN THE CLIP, HE CALLS ONE OF THE SONS DOWN, AS YOU SAY, AND THEY WERE SLAUGHTERED AFTERWARDS.
AND SHE'S AN IMPORTANT WITNESS IN SHOWING ETHNIC CLEANSING AND FORCEFUL TRANSFER.
SHE WAS ONE OF THE WOMEN, MANY WOMEN, AND OLDER MEN AS WELL, PUT ON BUSES, AND TAKEN OUT OF THE TOWN, AND HER HUSBAND AND SON AND OTHERS WERE BRUTALLY MASSACRED.
I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY JUST A LITTLE SOUND BITE OF AN INTERVIEW I DID WITH ONE OF THE SURVIVORS OF ONE OF THE MASS GRAVES, BECAUSE IN THE COURT, THE DEFENSE SAID, AND I THINK THE PROSECUTOR SAID, THEY WERE HAVING A HARD TIME PINNING RATKO MLADIC TO THE MASS GRAVES AND TO THE ORDERS FOR SHOOTING SEVEN TO 8,000 MUSLIM MEN AND BOYS, THIS IS WITNESS A IN THE TRIAL.
THE SERBS SAID DON'T LOOK AROUND.
THEN, I HEARD A LOT OF SHOOTING, AND BODIES FELL ON TOP OF ME.
THEY WERE THE PEOPLE STANDING BEHIND ME.
I FELL, TOO.
HE WASN'T HIT.
HE KEPT QUIET.
IF ANYONE SHOWED SIGNS OF LIFE, OR IF THEY HEARD ANMOAN, THEY SAID TELL US WHERE YOU ARE, WHERE ARE THEY, AND THEN THEY KILLED HIM.
HE SAYS TRUCKLOADS OF MEN WERE KILLED.
HE COULD SEE BY THE LIGHT OF THE MOON, AND THE LIGHTS ON BIG DIGGING MACHINES.
HERE, HE SAYS, HE SAW RATKO MLADIC ONE LAST TIME.
HE STOOD THERE AND WAITED UNTIL THEY KILLED THEM.
WHEN THEY KILLED THEM, HE GOT BACK IN HIS CAR AND LEFT.
I MEAN THAT IN ITSELF IS JUST DAMMING, AND LET'S FACE IT MLADIC WAS CONVICTED OF 11 OF THE CHARGES THERE, TEN OF THE 11 CHARGES.
WHY DID HIS TEAM WANT TO TALK TO YOU?
HOW DID YOU CONVINCE THE DEFENSE TEAM, AND THE PROSECUTION TEAM TO TALK TO YOU.
I MEAN IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.
I THINK WE WERE LUCKY, AND AS YOU KNOW, AS A JOURNALIST, ACCESS WILL, IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF LUCK, THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF LUCK, ACCESS NEEDS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF LUCK.
WE WENT TO THE ICTY, TOWARD THE END OF ITS LIFE.
I THINK THE INSTITUTION FELT WE'RE DOING EXTRAORDINARY WORK, AND NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHAT WE'RE DOING.
WHEN IT CAME TO THE DEFENSE, I THINK THE DEFENSE FELT, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE?
WORLD OPINION IS AGAINST US.
SO HENRY, HIS CO-DIRECTOR, ROB MILLER, THEY SEEMED GENUINE, I THINK, I KNOW WE WERE, AND WE WERE AND ARE GENUINE AND I THINK OVER TIME MORE AND MORE WE BUILT THEIR TRUST.
WITH THE PROSECUTION, AGAIN, THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HESITANCY, BUT MOSTLY I THINK WE WERE LUCKY IN TERMS OF THE TIMING.
PEOPLE, THEY WANT THIS STORY OUT THERE, OF THE EXTRAORDINARY WORK THAT THE ICTY HAS DONE.
AND THEY DID PROSECUTE MORE THAN 100 ACCUSED, AND THAT WAS THEIR LAST TRIAL.
IT IS REMARKABLE WHAT HAPPENED, AND FOR MANY PEOPLE, JUSTICE WAS SERVED.
AND IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY AS YOU DETAIL THE COOKING OF THIS NATIONAL IMP, BACK IN THE '90s AND WE SEE IT PLAYING OUT ON CITY STREETS ALL OVER THE WORLD.
HENRY SINGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
REALLY IMPORTANT THAT IT IS COMING OUT THIS WEEK.
AND AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, ANOTHER NOTORIOUS FIGURE FROM THAT BALKANS WAR IS THE SELF-DECLARED PRESIDENT OF THE WAR-TIME SERB REPUBLIC KARADIC AND HE WAS CONVICTED OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND OTHER CRIMES AND HE LAUNCHED AND APPEAL AND THIS WEDNESDAY THE JUDGES WILL ANNOUNCE THEIR VERDICT ON THAT APPEAL.
> NOW IT IS TIME FOR US TO TURN TO A MUSICAL AND TELEVISION LEGEND.
YOU MAY KNOW HIM AS A FOUNDING MEMBER OF BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN'S ICONIC E STREET BAND OR AS SILVIO DANTE, TONY SOPRANO, IN THE SOPRANO'S, AND STEVE VAN ZAN HAS A NEW PROJECT WORKING TO PRESERVE ARTS AND MUSIC EDUCATION IN THE SCHOOLS AND HE SITS DOWN WITH OUR WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE TEACHER OL DARITY TOUR AND HIS NEW ALBUM 'SUMMER OF SOURCE RY'.
WOW, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.
SO SPRINGSTEEN, THE SOPRANOS, SOUL FIRE, AND NOW, YOU'RE INTO EDUCATION.
EXPLAIN HOW YOU GOT THERE.
YOU HAVE BECOME AN ADVOCATE FOR MUSIC IN EDUCATION.
YES, IT WAS A STRANGE ROAD.
ONE I DIDN'T REALLY INTEND TO TAKE.
BUT THE MUSIC TEACHERS CAME TO ME, I DON'T KNOW, TEN, 12 YEARS AGO NOW, AND THEY SAID LISTEN, NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND LEGISLATION HAS DEVASTATED ALL OF THE ARTS, YOU KNOW.
IS THERE SOMETHING YOU CAN LOOK INTO?
SO I WENT TO CONGRESS, I TALKED TO TEDDY KENNEDY AT THE TIME, AND MITCH McCONNELL.
AND I SAID LISTEN, THIS NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND LEGISLATION IS DOING A BAD THING AND THEY SAID IT WAS UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, I SAID OKAY, OKAY, SO FIX IT, YOU KNOW.
THEY'RE LIKE, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, OKAY?
SO I SAID, I CAME BACK TO THEM, I THOUGHT ABOUT IT, I SAID LET'S DO THE NEXT BEST THING, LET'S DO OUR MUSIC HISTORY CURRICULUM, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO KEEP THE ARTS IN THE DNA OF OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM SOMEHOW.
SO LET'S AVOID THE HIGH SCHOOL YEARS, AND KIND OF FOCUS ON THE MIDDLE SCHOOL, BECAUSE NOW, HIGH SCHOOL IS COMPLETELY OBSESSED WITH TESTING, AND SOME DAY, THEY'RE GOING TO FIGURE OUT THAT TESTING IS NOT OKAY, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER DISCUSSION.
BUT RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE TO DO THESE TESTS, AND GET HIGHER SCORES ON MATH AND SCIENCE.
TO IMPROVE THE MATH AND SCIENCE SCORE, YOU KNOW.
SO ANYWAY, SO I SAID OKAY, LET'S DO THAT.
I OUTLINED 200 LESSONS AND WE WORKED ON IT FOR TEN YEARS.
SO THIS IS A CHOLE CUR, A WH CURRICULUM THAT TEACHERS CAN USE THAT USES ROCK MUSIC AND IF YOU USE ROCK MUSIC, YOU CAN TEACH EVERYTHING.
IT IS NOT JUST ROCK MUSIC BUT POPULAR MUSIC.
AND WE GO ALL THE WAY BACK WE STARTED IN THE EARLYth 20th CENTURY WITH COUNTRY BLUES AND WENT UP TO THE CURRENT TYPES AND I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT KIND OF DEALT WITH THE MODERN WORLD, IN THE SENSE THAT THIS GENERATION IS DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW.
IT IS PROBABLY THE SECOND BIGGEST GENERATION GAP AFTER OURS.
AND MAY EVEN BE THE FIRST BIGGEST IN THE SENSE THAT THESE KIDS ARE DIFFERENT.
THEY'RE FASTER.
THEY'RE SMARTER.
THEY HAVE NO PATIENCE WHATSOEVER.
YOU KNOW.
AND WE HAVE TO KIND OF ADJUST TO THAT.
SO I THOUGHT, LET'S DO SOMETHING THAT WORKS FOR THEM.
INSTEAD OF DRAGGING THEM TO OUR OLD METHODS OF LEARN THIS NOW, AND SOME DAY YOU'LL USE IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO FLY WITH THESE KIDS ANYMORE.
THEY WANT SOMETHING NOW, THEY CAN USE NOW, YOU KNOW.
THEY ARE SO USED TO THAT DEVICE GIVING THEM EVERYTHING THEY WANT EVERY TEN SECOND, RIGHT?
I SAID LET'S DO MUSIC.
MUSIC IS THE PERFECT ANSWER.
EVERY KID'S INTO MUSIC.
YOU KNOW, AND LET'S JUST GO INTO A CLASSROOM AND GO TO THEM.
NOT DRAG THEM TO US.
SO WE ASKED THEM WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE ARTIST, EVERY KID KNOWS THAT ANSWER, RIGHT?
AND LET'S TRACE THEM BACK.
YOU'RE INTO WHOEVER IT IS, ARIANA GRANDE, WHATEVER, SHE COMES FROM THIS ONE, THAT ONE COMES FROM THAT ONE, THAT ONE COMES FROM ARETHA FRANKLIN.
SO YOU TRACED THE ROOTS ALL THE WAY BACK THROUGH MUSIC IN THE 20th CENTURY.
AND GIVE THEM A LITTLE CONTEXT OF THE HISTORY OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING WHEN THAT ARTIST CAME OUT, WHEN THAT SONG WAS WRITTEN, AND WHY IT WAS WRITTEN, YOU KNOW.
AND WHAT HAPPENS IS, THEY'RE ENGAGED.
YOU TALK TO ANY TEACHER TODAY, WHAT IS THE TOUGHEST THING, WHAT IS THEIR BIGGEST CHALLENGE?
ENGAGING THE KIDS, RIGHT?
AND KEEPING THEM ENGAGED.
WELL THIS ENGAGES THEM IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE IT IS THE ONE SUBJECT THEY'RE ALL EXPERTS IN WHICH IS THEIR OWN TASTE, YOU KNOW.
THEY KNOW WHAT THEY LIKE.
AND LET'S BRING SOME ATTENTION TO TEACHERS WHO ARE JUST THE MOST UNDERAPPRECIATED, UNDERFUNDED, UNDERPAID PEOPLE.
AND LET'S START TO MAKE THEM, LET'S MAKE THEM COOL, YOU KNOW, AS COOL AS WE CAN.
SO WE PUT ASIDE 4, 500 TICKETS EVERY SINGLE SHOW, TEACHERS COME FOR FREE, BRING A FRIEND, AND WE DO AN HOUR WORKSHOP IN BETWEEN THE SOUND CHECK AND THE SHOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO DO 20, 25 HOURS OF PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT EVERY YEAR, TO CERTIFY FOR THEIR TEACHING CERTIFICATE, AND THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
OUT OF THEIR MEAGER SALARIES.
RIGHT?
LET'S GIVE THEM AN HOUR FOR FREE.
HOPEFULLY IT WILL COUNT TOWARDS THEIR CERTIFICATE.
MOST PLACES, IT DOES.
AND WE HAVE THE FOUNDATION PEOPLE COME OUT AND DO THE WORKSHOP OF HOW THE CURRICULUM WORKS, SO IT WAS A WAY OF CONNECTING THEM TO THE CURRICULUM DIRECTLY.
WE'RE ALSO WORKING ON THE ADMINISTRATION LEVEL, SCHOOL BOARD LEVEL, AND NEW JERSEY HAS ADOPTED OUR CURRICULUM NOW, AND THEY'RE THE FIRST STATE I THINK TO OFFICIALLY ADOPT STEAM, FROM STEM, YOU KNOW, AND PUT THE 'A' INTO THE CURRICULUM, AND WE'RE HOPING TO DO THAT IN EVERY SINGLE STATE.
WITH YOUR PASSION FOR THE TEACHERS, YOU'RE IN LOS ANGELES ON TOUR, AND ONE MORNING, I WAKE UP, AND YOU'RE WALKING THE PICKET LINE ON A STRIKE WITH THE L.A. SCHOOLTEACHERS.
WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?
YES, IT WAS FUN.
I HAPPENED TO BE THERE FOR A MEETING AND I SAW ON THE NEWS WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND LET ME GO SUPPORT THEM AND I'M A BIG SUPPORTER OF THE UNIONS AND HAPPILY, THE STRIKE ENDED A DAY LATER.
YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING EXPOSED TO ALL OF THE ART, MUSIC, AND THE VARIOUS TYPES OF ART, AND DID YOU EVER THINK GROWING UP AS A KID IN NEW JERSEY YOU WOULD NOT ONLY BE INTO MUSIC, BUT BE INTO RADIO, AND BE INTO VINYL, BUT ALSO BE INTO ACTING, AND TELEVISION, AND EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DO?
NO.
NO.
WE WERE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING ROCK AND ROLL.
WHICH WAS A MIRACLE ITSELF, YOU KNOW.
IT WAS SUCH A LONG SHOT.
AS OUR PARENTS WOULD OFTEN REMIND US, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
ARE YOU GOING TO BE A BEATLE?
YOU KNOW.
WELL, NOW THAT YOU PUT IT THAT WAY, YOU KNOW.
FEBRUARY 9th, 1964, THE BEATLES PLAYED ED SULLIVAN, AND THE DAY BEFORE, NOBODY HAD A BAND, AND THEN EVERYBODY HAD A BAND.
YOU WATCHED IT?
OH, YES.
ME AND 70 MILLION OTHERS.
AND IT WAS, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T ALL GET OUT OF A GARAGE, OKAY?
MOST OF THE BANDS, YOU KNOW.
BUT A DOZEN OR SO THAT DID, I HAD MY BAND, HE HAD HIS BAND, SO WE WERE IMMEDIATELY FRIENDS, YOU KNOW.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, I KNOW BEST MAN IN YOUR WEDDING MANY DECADES AGO AND HOW HAVE YOU EVOLVED AND CHANGED TOGETHER?
DO YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT NUMBER OUTLOUD?
WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS 50 YEARS.
I WAS LIKE 15, HE WAS 16.
THINGS HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, IN 50 YEARS.
I MEAN WE, YOU KNOW, WE GOT OUR OWN FAMILIES AND OUR OWN, YOU LIVE YOUR OWN LIVES, BUT NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED.
TELL ME ABOUT THE SOUTH AFRICA CRUSADE.
I DECIDED TO MAKE, SOLO RECORDS, I DECIDED I WILL BE THE POLITICAL GUY.
THERE'S A LOT OF ARTISTS SHOWING UP AT DEMONSTRATIONS AND PROTESTS AND DOING A LOT OF GREAT POLITICAL WORK, AND STARTED WITH THE GRATEFUL DEAD AND JEFFSON AIRPLANE, AND A GREAT TRADITION OF YOU KNOW, POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT THAT WAY, BUT THERE WASN'T A WHOLE LOT OF IT IN THE WORK.
SO I WROTE ABOUT LATIN AMERICA, BITTER FRUIT, AND VARIOUS THINGS, I TALKED ABOUT, AND I ENDED UP IN SOUTH AFRICA, THE ONE PLACE I COULDN'T FIND THAT MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT.
I HAD HEARD THAT THEY WERE DOING THESE REFORMS OF THE APARTHEID SYSTEM AND IT WAS GETTING BETTER, YOU KNOW, 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' BASICALLY SAYING THAT THEY WERE AN INVULNERABLE COUNTRY, VERY SCARY COUNTRY, POSSIBLY WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS, BUT THEY WERE REFORMING THE GOVERNMENT, AND SO I WENT THERE WITH A COMPLETELY OPEN MIND, HOPING TO SEE THESE REFORMS, AND INSTEAD, I FOUND SLAVERY.
MODERN SLAVERY.
AND REALIZED THAT THIS SYSTEM CAN'T BE REFORMED.
IT HAS TO BE ELIMINATED.
AND THE SPORTS BOYCOTT HAD ALREADY HAPPENED.
IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE.
THE ULTIMATE HOMERUN WAS THE ECONOMIC BOYCOTT.
WHICH WOULD BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT.
IN BETWEEN WAS THE CULTURAL BOYCOTT.
I SAID LET'S FOCUS ON THAT AND BE A BRIDGE TO THAT, TOWARDS THAT ECONOMIC BOYCOTT, AT WHICH POINT, YOU KNOW, WE WILL, YOU KNOW, THIS GOVERNMENT WILL FALL.
THEY WERE COPYING OUR NATIVE AMERICAN RESERVATIONS, AND CREATING THESE PHONY HOMELANDS, AND THEN CREATE, MAKE THOSE HOMELANDS INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES, IN ONE OF THESE PHONY HOMELANDS, WAS THIS RESORT CALLED SUB CITY SO THEY WERE ENTICING, PAYING BIG MONEY FOR PEOPLE COME PLAY SUN CITY, VIOLATE THE BUY COT AND PRETEND THEY WEREN'T VIOLATING THE BOYCOTT BECAUSE IT WAS A SEPARATE COUNTRY.
IT WASN'T A SEPARATE COUNTRY.
SO WE WANTED TO EXPOSE THAT.
IT IS NOT A SEPARATE COUNTRY.
IT'S A PHONY HOMELAND AND YOU ARE VIOLATING THE BOYCOTT.
IT IS SOUTH AFRICA BY PLAYING THERE.
SO DON'T PLAY THERE ANYMORE.
AND WE SHUT THEM DOWN.
OVERNIGHT.
THE MONEY'S GOING TO THE AFRICA FUND.
FAMILIES OF POLITICAL PRISONERS.
SOUTH AFRICANS IN EXILE.
IT WAS VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL.
AND THEN BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICITY, THE SENATORS, AND CONGRESSMEN, KIDS WERE COMING TO THEM SAYING WHAT IS THIS SOUTH AFRICA THING, WE GOT ON MTV, WE GOT ON B.E.T. --
♪ SAY I, I, I --
I'M NOT GOING TO PLAY SUN CITY, IT BECAME ALMOST A MANTRA.
AND IT GOT THE WHOLE MOVEMENT REENERGIZED.
AND IN THE END, IT WAS THE FIRST OVERRIDING OF, THE BASIC LEGISLATION POPPED UP, TO CUT THEM OFF ECONOMICALLY, REAGAN VETOED IT, AND HIS VETO WAS OVERRIDDEN FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AND THAT WAS THE END.
ONCE THAT HAPPEN, THE DOMINOS STARTED TO FALL AND THEY HAD TO LET MANDELA OUT, AND THE GOVERNMENT FELL.
AND YOUR MUSIC HAS BEEN VERY, VERY POLITICAL.
BOTH YOURS AND THEN YOURS WITH THE E STREET BAND BUT RECENTLY, YOUR LAST ALBUM, ART.
SO TELL ME YOUR VIEW OF POLITICS AND MUSIC.
MY VALUE AT THIS MOMENT IS TO MAYBE TRY AND BRING SOME COMMON GROUND BETWEEN OUR VERY DIVISIVE, DIVIDED NATION, YOU KNOW.
AND SO I WANTED TO, I SAID, YOU KNOW, I ANNOUNCED THIS AFTER SHOWS, I SAID LISTEN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO ANY POLITICS TONIGHT, EVERYBODY IS WELCOME, YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO TRANSPORT YOU BY PURE ART, BY PURE MUSIC BY THIS AMAZING BAND I PUT TOGETHER, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO DWELL ON ANYTHING PARTISAN, YOU KNOW.
AND SO I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING PARTISAN SINCE I STARTED THIS.
12 YEARS AGO.
I DIDN'T ENDORSE OBAMA.
AND I'M NOT CRITICIZING TRUMP.
YOU KNOW, I WANT EVERYBODY TO FEEL FREE AND FEEL WELCOME WHEN THEY COME TO THE SHOW.
IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC.
LET ME TAKE YOU ON A TRIP AND GET AWAY FROM THIS FOR A MINUTE.
AND WE NEED A SANCTUARY FOR THE POLITICS AT THIS POINT.
RATHER THAN ME DRAGGING PEOPLE INTO AWARENESS AND CONSCIOUSNESS ABOUT POLITICS.
AT THIS POINT, WE NEED AN ACTUAL BREAK FROM IT.
SO OUR MINDS CAN EVEN FUNCTION THE NEXT DAY, WHEN WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO THIS, YOU KNOW, INCREDIBLE ONSLAUGHT OF BAD NEWS EVERY DAY.
♪
YOU'RE WORKING ON A NEW ALBUM.
THE NEW ALBUM IS DONE.
COMING OUT MAY 3rd.
SUMMER OF SORCERY.
I'M VERY PROUD OF IT.
A BIG LEAP FOR ME ARTISTICALLY.
THE FIRST NONPOLITICAL ALBUM REALLY FOR THE MOST PART AND ALSO THE FIRST FICTIONAL ALBUM.
IT IS THE FIRST ALBUM I'VE DONE THAT IS NOT AUTO BIOGRAPHICAL.
I WAS TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM ME, ME, ME, YOU KNOW.
I AM SICK OF ME.
I WANT TO MAKE RECORDS LIKE THE RECORDS I GREW UP WITH, YOU KNOW.
SAM COOK AND SMOKY ROBINSON AND THE BEATLES AND STONES AND ALL OF THOSE GREAT BANDS THAT WERE NOT SPECIFICALLY AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW.
I WANTED TO TRY THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME.
SO I'VE SUCCEEDED IN DOING IT AND I'M VERY, VERY PROUD OF IT.
DOES IT TIE IN WITH THIS NOTION OF A HISTORY OF JAZZ, I MEAN HISTORY OF MUSIC AND ITS ROOTS?
FOR ME, IT IS CERTAINLY, IT'S AN EVOLUTION FOR ME, CERTAINLY, OF ALL OF MY WORK.
SO I'M VERY PROUD OF IT THAT WAY.
YOU CAN HEAR WHERE I'M COMING FROM.
BUT NOW, IN THE FORM OF ORIGINAL SONGS AS OPPOSED TO COVERS.
AND YES, BEFORE THAT, THE TOUR IS COMING OUT, ON BLU-RAY, THE SOUL FIRE TOUR AND A SEVEN ALBUM VINYL BOX.
WE STARTED PLAYING ON THE RADIO NOW THE PAUL McCARTNEY JOINED ME ON STAGE, WHICH I WAS THRILLED ABOUT, ONE OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF MY LIFE, THE NEW ALBUM WILL COME FIRST WEEK IN MAY AND THERE WILL SABOTEUR WITH THAT.
AS A PIONEER, THERE WILL BE, A TOUR WITH THAT.
AS A PIONEER, NETFLIX, AND YOUR SHOW, AND HOW HAS NETFLIX AND THINGS LIKE THAT CHANGED THE NATURE OF WHAT YOU CAN DO ON TV?
IT WAS THE SOPRANOS THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING, I THINK.
AND THAT IS PRETTY MUCH RECOGNIZED NOW.
AND THAT TOOK THREE ELEMENTS WHICH IS HBO BEING VERY COURAGEOUS TO GIVE YOU THE BANK SL SLATE, BLANK SLATE, YOU KNOW, GAVE DAVID CHASE THE FREEDOM TO DO WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.
DAVID CHASE IS JUST A GENIUS.
AND IT TOOK GANDOLFINI TO PULL IT OFF SO BETWEEN ALL THREE, THEY CREATED THIS THING THAT WAS NEW.
WHICH WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE REALISTIC.
AS YOU'RE WATCHING SOPRANOS AND YOU CHANGE THE CHANNEL TO OTHER SHOWS, THEY LOOKED QUITE FALSE IN COMPARISON, YOU KNOW, THE WAY IT WAS LIT, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THE OTHER SHOW, ALL OF A SUDDEN, LOOKED OVERLIT, YOU KNOW, AND ALL KINDS OF CAMERA MOVES, AND YOU KNOW, THE SOPRANOS WAS AS CLOSE TO, YOU KNOW, A DOCUMENTARY AS YOU'RE GOING TO GET.
IT WAS VERY, YOU KNOW, THE CAMERA DIDN'T MOVE, THERE WAS NOTHING DUCTIVE ABOUT SEDUCTIVE ABOUT IT.
NOTHING ARTISTICALLY GIMMICKY, YOU KNOW.
AND I STILL MISS THAT ON TV, YOU KNOW.
TURNING ON A SHOW AND RELATING TO THE CHARACTERS.
I DON'T SEE THAT ANYMORE.
NOT VERY OFTEN.
AND IT WAS DAVID CHASE WHO DECIDED I WAS AN ACTOR, BEFORE I KNEW I WAS AN ACTOR.
I GENUINELY DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING TO GAIN BY KEEPING HIM AROUND.
SO HE GOT YOU ON THE SPRAN YOSE.
H -- SOPRANOS.
HOW DID THAT HEAP?
HE SAW ME INDUCTING THE RASCALS ON THE HALL OF FAME.
FIRST TIME IT WAS TELEVISED.
A LOT OF DESTINY HAPPENING HERE, WALTER.
AND HE JUST HAPPENED TO BE AROUND, AND HE WAS A FAN, NOT ONLY THESE RECORDS, HE HAD MY SOLO RECORDS AND CALLED ME UP AND DO YOU WANT TO BE IN MY NEW TV SHOW, NOT REALLY, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT AN ACTOR, AND HE SAID YES YOU ARE.
YOU JUST ZOODON'T KNOW IT YET.
I HAD NOTHING BETTER TO DO.
I HAD BEEN PRETTY MUCH BEEN BLACK-BALLED FROM THE MUSIC IN SOUTH AFRICA, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SING IN SOUTH AFRICA, DON'T BRING DOWN GOVERNMENTS, NOT SMILED ON IN THE CORPORATE WORLD SO I HAPPENED TO BE IN TWO PLACES WHERE HISTORY WAS MADE JUST BY ACCIDENT, ONE WITH SOPRANOS BRINGING THIS WHOLE NEW CONSCIOUSNESS TO TV, AND THEN NETFLIX, TURNING IT INTO AN INTERNATIONAL THING, YOU KNOW.
OUR SHOW WAS REALLY, WHAT WE HAD WAS REALLY THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL SHOW.
I WAS AN AMERICAN STARRING IN A NORWEGIAN SHOW.
IT WAS ALL SUBTITLED.
TAKE CARE.
WHO ARE WE GOING TO TAKE CARE OF?
ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT YOUR FIRST SHOW TO BE SUBTITLED?
I LOVE IT, BUT YOU KNOW, I WAS ROOTING FOR THE GUY, I WANTED THEM TO WIN, YOU KNOW, AND HAVE THIS WHOLE NEW WORLD FOR US PEOPLE WHO ARE CONTENT CREATORS, YOU KNOW, WHAT A WONDERFUL NEW THING, IF THIS NETFLIX ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS, I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED, I SAID THE FIRST SHOW, SUBTITLES, REALLY?
AND HE SAID YEAH, I LIKE IT.
IT IS VERY AUTHENTIC.
AND I WAS VERY PROUD OF THE FACT THAT WE'RE THE ONLY EUROPEAN SHOW IN HISTORY THAT WASN'T REMADE FOR AMERICA, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW.
ALMOST EVERYTHING ELSE GETS REMADE.
THAT SHOW AND THE ACTUAL NORWEGIAN ACTORS WHO WERE JUST TERRIFIC, AND GREAT DIRECTORS AND CINEMAING TO GRAPHERERS AND I'M THE ONLY ONE SPEAKING ENGLISH YOU KNOW.
IF THE E STREET BAND GETS BACK TOGETHER AND YOU DO SOMETHING AT THE END OF THE YEAR, WHAT WOULD YOU HOPE IT WOULD BE?
I WOULD HOPE IT WOULD BE A NEW ALBUM AND A NEW TOUR.
BRUCE, YOU KNOW, IT COMES FROM HIM, YOU KNOW.
BUT I HOPE IT WOULD BE LIKE THE OLD DAYS, YOU KNOW.
WHERE THE BAND CONTRIBUTES TO IT, AND YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS DID, YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS, AT THAT TIME, I WAS PRODUCING AS WELL AS HELPING OUT WITH THE ARRANGEMENT, AND I WOULD HOPE TO DO THAT AGAIN.
WHATEVER HE WANTS, WHATEVER HE NEEDS, YOU KNOW, I'M, THERE THE BAND'S THERE FOR HIM BUT I THINK WE WILL GET BACK TOGETHER, AND YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE WHEN, BUT IT WILL HAPPEN EVENTUALLY.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
OH, MAN.
APPRECIATE IT, MAN.
MY PLEASURE.
MY PLEASURE.
THAT WOULD BE GENUINELY GOOD NEWS IF BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN DECIDES TO PULL THE E STREET BAND BACK TOGETHER.
BEFORE WE GO HERE'S ANOTHER MOMENT OF UNITY AND COMMUNITY FROM NEW ZEALAND.
EARLIER TODAY A GROUP OF CHRISTCHURCH SCHOOL BOYS CHOSE TO HONOR THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY WITH A HAKA, A TRADITIONAL MAWI RITUAL AS A SHOW OF SUPPORT.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.