Read Full Transcript EXPAND
>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> WE WILL CONTINUE TO PUSH THAT UKRAINE OWNS ITS SKIES AND CAN DEFEND ITS CITIZENS.
>> REASSURING WORDS FROM THE U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY BLAMES THE WEST FOR TYING UKRAINE'S HANDS.
SECURITY EXPERT ONDREA KENDALL TAYLOR WAYS THE RISKS OF TAKING THE FIGHT INTO RUSSIA.
THEN -- >> WE ARE HUMAN, NOT ANIMALS LIKE SOME PEOPLE SAY.
>> DAILY LIFE INSIDE GAZA'S RUINS.
AND -- >> BIDEN HAS BEEN A CATASTROPHE.
SO, I WILL BE VOTING FOR TRUMP.
>> WILL THE LAST ANTI-TRUMP REPUBLICAN PLEASE TURN OFF THE LIGHTS?
SUSAN GLASSER TRACKS THE RUSH TO UNIFY AROUND THE LEADER, NIKKI HALEY HERSELF ONCE CALLED TOXIC AND UNHINGED.
ALSO -- >> I'M GLAD I DID NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL THEY HAD TO DO IN ORDER TO WRITE A BEST- SELLING BOOK.
>> NOVELIST A MORTALS TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT NOT OVERCOMING ADVERSITY FROM HIS ART.
AND LATER -- >> IT IS THE PILLAR OF OUR DEMOCRACY.
THAT IS A PATRIOTIC MESSAGE TO PUT OUT.
>> FROM CHRISTIANE'S ARCHIVES, TOM HANKS AND MERYL STREEP DEFEND THE SANCTITY OF A FREE PRESS.
♪ >>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT .
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.
MARK J BLUSH THERE.
THE SILLIMAN AND DIVERSITY NO FOUNDATION.
SEATON J MELVIN.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA U.N.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I AM IN NEW YORK SITTING FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR .
>>> SEVEN PEOPLE WERE KILLED, MOSTLY WOMEN, ALL CIVILIANS WORKING AT A PRINTING PLANT IN THE HEART OF KYIV.
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR ZELINSKI BLAMES HESITATION FOR WEAKENING UKRAINE, PLACING RESTRICTIONS ON WHERE AND HOW KYIV CAN USE NATO WEAPONS.
>> THIS IS A SHORTAGE OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY AVAILABLE IN THE WORLD.
THIS IS THE LACK OF LONG-RANGE CAPABILITIES FOR OUR WARRIORS AND THE COMPLETE INABILITY TO DESTROY THE VERY SOURCE OF RUSSIAN TERROR NEAR OUR BORDERS, INCLUDING THE MISSILE LAUNCHERS THAT ACTUALLY HIT UKRAINE AND THE LIVES OF OUR PEOPLE.
>> MEANTIME, THE TIMES REPORTS A DEBATE IS RAGING INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE NOW OVER LETTING UKRAINE SHOOT U.S.
WEAPONS INTO RUSSIA.
AFTER A SOBERING VISIT THERE, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN WANTS TO CHANGE U.S. POLICY.
AND EARLIER THIS MONTH, AFTER A VISIT BY DAVID CAMERON, BRITAIN GAVE KYIV THE GO-AHEAD TO TARGET WITH ITS WEAPONS.
THE WHITE HOUSE WISE TO HEED PRESIDENT BIDEN'S MANDATE TO, QUOTE, AVOID WORLD WAR III?
LET'S BRING IN ONDREA KENDALL TAYLOR, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER OF NEW AMERICAN SECURITY AND FORMER NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE OFFER -- OFFICER FOR RUSSIA AND EURASIA.
IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.
LET'S FOLLOW UP ON THAT QUESTION.
AND THE INTERESTING REPORTING OUT OF THE TIMES ABOUT SOME DISAGREEMENTS WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT WHETHER U.S. POLICY SHOULD CHANGE AND AMEND TO ALLOW UKRAINE TO USE U.S.
PROVIDED AND WESTERN PROVIDED WEAPONS TO TARGET INFRASTRUCTURE SITES INSIDE RUSSIA PROPER.
WE SELDOM DO THAT ONCE AGAIN THIS WEEK USING AN ATTACK AGAINST CRIMEA.
BUT IN THEIR EFFORTS -- IN REFERENCE TO RUSSIA PROPER, THAT IS AGAINST POLICY.
SHOULD THAT CHANGE IN YOUR VIEW?
>> YEAH.
I THINK IT ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO CHANGE.
THE UNITED STATES EXPRESSED POLICY TO HELP UKRAINE DEFEND ITSELF FROM RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
AND THIS RESTRICTION ON USING U.S.
WEAPONS TO STRIKE RUSSIA DIRECTLY UNDERMINES UKRAINE'S ABILITY TO DO THAT.
AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT A VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF THE RUSSIAN A FRIENDSHIP AROUND KHARKIV WHERE YOU JUST REFERENCED, THAT ATTACK, THAT OFFENSIVE DID NOT COME AS A SURPRISE TO UKRAINE AND ITS BACKERS.
UKRAINE WATCHED AS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF RUSSIAN TROOPS AND EQUIPMENT AMASSED ON THE BORDER THERE WITH RUSSIA, AND THEY JUST HAD TO SIT AND WATCH BECAUSE OF THE U.S.
RESTRICTIONS.
SO, I DO THINK IT IS TIME.
I DON'T THINK THE POLICY MAKES SENSE ANYMORE.
AND IF WE ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT HELPING UKRAINE AND ENABLING UKRAINE TO DEFEND ITSELF, WE HAVE TO REMOVE THOSE RESTRICTIONS.
>> WHAT IF I TOLD YOU A HOWITZER COMMAND CREW EXPRESSED HIS OWN FRUSTRATION SECONDING WHAT WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT ZELINSKI AND OTHERS, AND NOW, FROM U.S. OFFICIALS AS WELL AND OTHER GENERALS ABOUT THE RESTRICTION IN ALLOWING U.S. EQUIPMENT AND WEAPONS TO BE USED INSIDE OF RUSSIA?
LET'S PLAY THE SOUND FOR YOU.
>> THE FACT THAT ALLIES DON'T WANT US TO FIRE AT THE AGGRESSORS TERRITORY, I THINK IT IS UNACCEPTABLE.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE FOR ME.
IT'S NOT US WHO CAME TO THEM.
IT'S THEM WHO CAME TO US.
MULTIPLE ROCKET LAUNCH SYSTEMS, GUNS, HOWITZERS, FIRE AND MORE FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER.
IF WE DON'T FIRE THE RUSSIAN TERRITORY, THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN INFLICT DAMAGE ON THEM.
WE CAN ONLY HIT THEIR INFANTRY.
>> THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE FRUSTRATION WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT, A LOT OF THE MORALE ISSUES, THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY NOW OVER TWO YEARS INTO THE WAR AND THE HEAVY TOLL IT HAS HAD ON THEM AS WE HAVE BEEN WAITING DESPERATELY AS UKRAINE HAS BEEN WAITING FOR THE ADDITIONAL $60 BILLION IN SUPPLEMENTAL ADDITIONAL AID.
I AM CURIOUS.
IF WE DO SEE A POLICY CHANGE FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION, DO YOU THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE OR WOULD BE ANNOUNCED IN THE SENSE THAT, WOULDN'T THAT RUIN THE SURPRISE FROM THE RUSSIAN STANDPOINT IF WE GOT -- IF WE GOT A PUBLIC CHANGE IN POLICY FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AT THIS POINT?
>> WELL, I THINK IF IT WERE NOT ANNOUNCED AND UKRAINE WAS FREE TO STRIKE THOSE TARGETS YOU WOULD SEE, I THINK, IS SHORT WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WHERE THEY COULD HOLD AT RISK AND CERTAINLY DAMAGE OR DESTROY SOME OF THE MISSILE LAUNCHERS AND OTHER CAPABILITIES THAT THE UKRAINIAN OFFICER JUST TALKED ABOUT.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT UKRAINE -- SORRY, THAT RUSSIA DOES ADOPT TO UKRAINE'S TACTICS.
AND SO, I THINK THAT WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WOULD CLOSE RELATIVELY SOON.
ANNOUNCE IT OR NOT ANNOUNCE IT, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THAT RESTRICTION CHANGES BECAUSE IT NO LONGER MAKES SENSE.
I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT IT WILL CHANGE.
I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THEIR WILLINGNESS TO ADAPT TO UKRAINE'S CHANGING NEEDS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
MANY WOULD ARGUE THAT WE ARE ADAPTING FAR TOO SLOWLY.
THAT IS DEFINITELY A REASONABLE CRITICISM.
BUT WE DO ADAPT AS UKRAINE'S NEEDS CHANGE.
AND SO, I DO THINK NOW IT IS VERY CLEAR WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING IN KHARKIV THAT WE ARE REALLY IN A DIFFERENT PHASE OF THIS CONFLICT.
AND IT IS TIME FOR US TO MAKE A CHANGE IN OUR POLICY.
>> YOU MENTIONED THE ADAPTATION AND IT WORKS BOTH WAYS.
WE ARE SEEING ADAPTATION FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE AS WELL.
THERE HAS BEEN AN ANNOUNCEMENT OF A NEW DEFENSE SECRETARY MINISTER REPORTED.
A LOT IN THE NEW YORK TIMES NOW ABOUT STARLING BEING DISRUPTED AS WELL BY THE RUSSIANS.
UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN QUITE SUCCESSFUL AND NIMBLE USING DRONES TO THEIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS, ESPECIALLY AS THEY HAVE BEEN WAITING IN THIS INTERIM PERIOD FOR ADVANCED WEAPONRY.
HOW IS THAT?
WE ARE ABLE TO SEE RUSSIA PENETRATE THE ACTIVITY WE'VE HAD, AND THE INTERNET ACCESS?
>> WELL, I THINK VERY BROADLY SPEAKING, WE ARE AT A CRITICAL POINT IN THE WAR WHERE WE ARE SEEING RUSSIA NOT ONLY ADAPT, BUT EXPLOIT SOME OF THESE RESTRICTIONS AND SOME OF THE VULNERABILITIES THAT WE SEE IN UKRAINE.
SO, YOU MENTIONED THE DELAY IN AID GETTING TO UKRAINE WHICH HAS MEANT THEY HAD A SIGNIFICANT SHORTAGE IN THINGS LIKE AMMUNITION AND AIR DEFENSES.
WE SEE UKRAINE CONTINUING TO STRUGGLE WITH THEIR MANPOWER ISSUES.
THEY HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY SLOW AT BUILDING UP SOME OF THEIR DEFENSIVE LINES, BUILDING FORTIFICATIONS, DRAGON'S TEETH, OTHER BARRIERS.
THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT PARTICULARLY AROUND KHARKIV, BUT ALSO POINTS OF THE FRONT SUCH THAT THEY ARE MAKING PROGRESS.
SO, THE STORY OF THE WAR, THE STORY OF THINGS LIKE STAR LINK IS THAT RUSSIA IS VERY QUICK TO EXPLOIT THESE OPENINGS, EXPLOIT THESE OPPORTUNITIES, AND SO IT REALLY IS INCUMBENT ON THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE TO CONTINUE TO SUSTAIN THE AID TO UKRAINE SO THEY CAN HOLD THESE DEFENSIVE LINES WITH THE GOAL THEN OF RECONSTITUTING NEW UNITS THAT WE CAN EQUIP AND TRAIN SO THEY CAN REAPPLY PRESSURE IN THE FUTURE.
>> WE KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A MANPOWER SHORTAGE.
RUSSIA -- I MEAN UKRAINE HAS LOWERED THE DRAFT ABILITY AGE TO 25.
THEY BEGAN RELEASING PRISONERS FROM PRISON NOW TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY AS WELL.
THAT IS A 1st FOR UKRAINE.
HOW DIRE IS THE SITUATION AS YOU HAVE BEEN NOTING IN THE KHARKIV AREA?
THE ASSESSMENT APPEARS TO BE THAT RUSSIA'S STRATEGY IS TO SPREAD THEIR MILITARY RESOURCES INCLUDING THEIR PERSONNEL AND MANPOWER THING ALONG THE AREA.
>> I THINK THAT IS THE RUSSIAN STRATEGY.
NUMBER ONE, I THINK PUTIN HAS SAID TO HIMSELF THEY ARE WILLING TO CREATE A BUFFER ZONE BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.
REMEMBER THAT KHARKIV IS 30 KILOMETERS OR 12 MILES FROM THE BORDER WITH RUSSIA.
UKRAINE HAS HAD SOME SUCCESS FIRING ITS OWN WEAPONS INTO PARTS OF RUSSIA.
SO, PUTIN IS LOOKING TO CREATE THE BUFFER ZONE.
I THINK, MORE IMPORTANTLY IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS, THEY ARE HOPING BY HOLDING AT RISK KHARKIV WHICH IS THE SECOND MOST POPULOUS CITY, UKRAINE'S SECOND-LARGEST CITY, THAT UKRAINE WILL HAVE TO REDEPLOY, DIVERT SOME OF ITS FORCES FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE FRONT LINE, CREATING POTENTIAL VULNERABILITIES THAT RUSSIA COULD THEN EXPLOIT.
AGAIN, THIS IS, I THINK, MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE.
I THINK THIS IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TIME UKRAINE HAS SEEN IN OVER A YEAR.
>> THE PROVOCATIONS FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE CONTINUE.
ESTONIA IS ACCUSING BORDER GUARDS OF REMOVING NAVIGATION BUOYS FROM THE SIDE OF THE RIVER SEPARATING THESE TWO BORDERS.
THAT IS SPARKING A LOT OF CONCERN AMONG EU AND NATO MEMBERS AS WELL.
OF COURSE, WE HAVE A LOOMING U.S. ELECTION.
THERE IS ALREADY TALK AS YOU ARE WELL AWARE, HOW TO BEST PREPARE UKRAINE TO BE IN THE MOST SECURE POSITION POSSIBLE IF, IN FACT, THERE IS A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.
WE KNOW FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID FROM DAY ONE IF HE WINS, THIS WAR WOULD END IN ONE DAY.
DO YOU THINK THAT ENOUGH MEASURES ARE BEING PUT INTO PLACE OR AT LEAST CONSIDERED NOW TO ENSURE THAT UKRAINE IS IN THE BEST POSITION POSSIBLE IF THAT DOES COME AND UKRAINE DOES OR IS FORCED TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE BY THE END OF THE YEAR?
>> WELL, TWO QUICK POINTS, ONE ON YOUR POINT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ESTONIA WITH THE BUOYS, I THINK THERE IS A BROADER POINT THAT IS EMBOLDENED NOT JUST ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND UKRAINE, BUT EMBOLDENED IN THIS BROADER CONFRONTATION WITH THE WEST.
WE HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT UPTICK IN THESE HYBRID TACTICS, TARGETING DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, FRANCE, GERMANY, ESTONIA, ARSON, GPS JAMMING.
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.
I THINK THAT IS THE BACKDROP WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE FORTIFY UKRAINE.
PUTIN IS EMBOLDENED NOT JUST THERE BUT IN EUROPE MORE BROADLY.
THE EUROPEANS ARE QUITE WORRIED, AND RIGHTLY SO ABOUT THE SUSTAINABILITY OF U.S. ASSISTANCE.
THEY ARE THINKING, HOW CAN WE QUOTE UNQUOTE TRUMP PROOF THE NATO ALLIANCE, FOR EXAMPLE?
SHOULD WE SHIFT THE CAPABILITIES OR THE DUTIES THAT THE UNITED STATES CONDUCTS IN THE FORMAT AND OTHER THINGS IN TERMS OF COORDINATING AID FOR UKRAINE?
SHOULD THAT MOVE FROM A SOLE U.S.
RESPONSE ABILITY TO A NATO RESPONSIBILITY?
THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE ONGOING BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF ANXIETY.
IT IS UNDERMINING THE CREDIBILITY OF THE UNITED STATES AS A RELIABLE PARTNER, NOT JUST IN THAT, BUT REALLY ACROSS THE GLOBE.
>> AND HERE IN THE U.S., THAT'S A GIVEN.
ANDREA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
>>> TURNING TO GAZA NOW, LIKE IN UKRAINE, THE IMAGES OF NEIGHBORHOODS DEMOLISHED AND LIVES DESTROYED CAN BE OVERWHELMING.
PAULA HANCOCKS REPORTS ON THE DAY TO DAY STRUGGLE ON LIFE AMIDST THE DEVASTATION.
>> Reporter: LIVING IN A CITY OF RUINS IS BARELY LIVING.
THE DAILY SEARCH FOR WATER AND FOOD IN GAZA'S SECOND-LARGEST CITY IS RELENTLESS.
THIS YOUNG MAN SAYS, LIFE IS HORRIBLE.
HE SHOWS US WHAT IS LEFT OF HIS HOME, A TWISTED SHOW OF CONCRETE WITH BROKEN WALLS.
THE BATHROOM HE SAYS, IS HALF DESTROYED, THE LIVING ROOM IS HALF DESTROYED.
I AM SLEEPING IN THE KITCHEN WITH MY FAMILY AND CHILDREN.
OMINOUS CRACKS SLICE THROUGH THE CEILING WHICH BULGES PRECARIOUSLY OVER THE FAMILY BELOW.
AS YOU CAN SEE, HE SAYS, THE CEILING IS CRACKED AND COULD FALL AT ANY TIME.
GOD KNOWS WE COULD BE DEAD OR ALIVE IN THE MORNING.
IT IS DANGEROUS, AND IT IS UNSANITARY, AND YET, BETTER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE.
HE SAYS HE IS UNABLE TO SECURE A TENT FOR HIS FAMILY.
OTHERS FOUND SHELTER IN A BOMBED SCHOOL.
100 FAMILIES LIVE HERE.
MOHAMMED WAS AN ENGINEER IN GAZA CITY.
HE HAS BEEN FORCED TO MOVE HIS FAMILY ALMOST HALF A DOZEN TIMES SO FAR BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY, MOST RECENTLY FROM RAFAH.
HE POINTS TO HIS 7-MONTH-OLD SON, SAYING, HE NEEDS TO BE ALLOWED TO LIVE.
[ INAUDIBLE ]'S ONLY HOPE, HE SAYS, HE SHARES WITH ALL GAZANS, THAT THE WAR WILL END.
>> WE ARE HUMAN, NOT ANIMALS LIKE SOME PEOPLE SAY.
SOME PEOPLE SAY, WE ARE NOT ANIMALS.
WE ARE HUMANS.
WE HAVE RIGHTS.
>> Reporter: THIS IS WHERE THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS THE DISPLACED SHOULD MOVE TO, CALLING IT A, QUOTE, HUMANITARIAN ZONE.
AS WASTE PILES HIGH ALONG MAKESHIFT SHELTERS, AID GROUPS CALL IT UNFIT FOR HUMAN HABITATION.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY RESPONSE TO THE MASS ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7th CONTINUES TO BE OVERWHELMING FOR THOSE TRYING TO SURVIVE IN GAZA.
ISRAEL INSISTS IT NEEDS TO DESTROY HAMAS AND FIND THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.
LOCAL OFFICIALS ESTIMATE 80% OF BUILDINGS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
AND YET, AMID THE DUSTY WASTELAND, A MAKESHIFT MARKET HAS SPRUNG UP.
EVERYTHING IS DESTROYED.
THIS IS A GHOST TOWN.
PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON TOP OF DEAD BODIES STILL UNDER THE RUBBLE.
>> THAT WAS PAULA HANCOCKS REPORTING PERIOD BACK HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE IS NO BREAK IN THE CRIMINAL HUSH MONEY TRIAL OF DONALD TRUMP.
CLOSING ARGUMENTS BEGIN TUESDAY.
THE TRIAL GRINDS ON, THE PRESUMPTIVE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE MANAGES TO STAND ASIDE TO HIS PARTY LIKE A COLOSSUS.
NIKKI HALEY IS THE LAST BEST HOPE FOR ONCE MAINSTREAM REPUBLICANS.
SHE PLEDGED HER ALLEGIANCE TO THE CAUSE.
SUSAN GLASSER WROTE ABOUT HALEY'S ANNOUNCEMENT AND A TORRENT OF RECENT PROVOCATIONS IN AN ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORKER CALLED, THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING TRUMP CAN SAY THAT WILL STOP REPUBLICANS FROM VOTING FOR HIM.
SUSAN GLOUCESTER JOINS THE PROGRAM NOW.
SUSAN, I THINK PERHAPS THE SAME WORDS COULD HAVE BEEN UTTERED FOR A WHILE NOW.
DO YOU THINK IT WAS ULTIMATELY NIKKI HALEY DESPITE EVERYTHING SHE SAID ABOUT HIM AND THE THREAT HE POSED TO THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD ANNOUNCING SHE WOULD, IN FACT, SUPPORT HIM THAT ULTIMATELY SOLIDIFIED THAT VIEW?
>> Reporter: IT IS A REMARKABLE MOMENT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
IT IS HARD RIGHT NOW.
WE HAVE BECOME IMMUNE TO IT AFTER WATCHING REPUBLICANS FLIP- FLOP ON DONALD TRUMP.
THEY CANNOT LIKE NIKKI HALEY DID WITH SCATHING CRITICISM OF TRUMP.
IT WAS JUST IN FEBRUARY SHE SAID HE WAS LITERALLY UNHINGED AND UNFIT FOR OFFICE.
AND WHEN SHE SUSPENDED HER CAMPAIGN BACK THEN, SHE REFUSED TO ENDORSE TRUMP.
NOW A COUPLE MONTHS HAVE PASSED.
DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T LOOK LIKE HE IS A LOT MORE HINGED THAN HE DID BACK IN FEBRUARY.
THERE HAS BEEN NO NOTICEABLE EFFORT TO ASSUAGE THE CONCERNS OF HALEY OR THE MILLIONS OF REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR HALEY AND NOT FOR DONALD TRUMP.
AND YET, NONETHELESS, SHE ANNOUNCED THAT SHE WAS GOING TO VOTE FOR TRUMP IN NOVEMBER.
I THINK IT REALLY TELLS YOU A LOT ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TODAY REALLY BEING DONALD TRUMP'S REPUBLICAN PARTY.
>> IT WASN'T A FULL THROATED ENDORSEMENT.
SHE SAID, TRUMP HAS NOT BEEN PERFECT ON THESE POLICIES.
I HAVE MADE THAT CLEAR MANY, MANY TIMES.
RYDEN HAS BEEN A CATASTROPHE SO I WILL VOTE FOR TRUMP.
AGAIN, AS YOU SAID, QUITE A CHANGE FROM TOXIC AND UNHINGED HOW SHE DESCRIBED HIM A FEW MONTHS AGO.
IT'S PLAY FOR OUR VIEWERS AN ACTUAL VIDEO OF PREVIOUS SOUND FROM NOT SO LONG AGO, NIKKI HALEY VOICING HER VIEWS ON DONALD TRUMP AT THE TIME.
>> HOW MUCH MORE LOSING DO WE HAVE TO DO BEFORE WE REALIZE, MAYBE DONALD TRUMP IS THE PROBLEM?
AFTER NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHEN I GOT 43% OF THE VOTE, HE WAS UNHINGED.
>> THE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE MORAL CLARITY.
AND HE IS JUST TOXIC.
>> THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR A CONVICTED CRIMINAL.
IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT WE WILL WIN AN ELECTION IF DONALD TRUMP IS THE NOMINEE.
>> SO, SUSAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CALCULUS WAS FOR SOMEONE LIKE NIKKI HALEY WHO IS STILL YOUNG WHO COULD'VE SAT THIS OUT, NOT NECESSARILY ENDORSING JOE BIDEN, SHE COULD'VE SAT THIS OUT AND SAID, LISTEN, LET'S REEVALUATE IN FOUR YEARS, AND IF DONALD TRUMP HAD ACTUALLY WON OR LOST, SHE COULD'VE SAID I TOLD YOU SO, AND IT WOULD'VE BEEN A REFRESH START FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?
NOW, DONALD TRUMP TODAY SAID THERE COULD BE ROOM FOR HER, SOME SPACE FOR HER IN HIS CAMPAIGN OR ADMINISTRATION.
THERE IS TALK NOW PERHAPS TOM COTTON BEING HIS RUNNING MATE, TIM SCOTT'S NAME HAS BEEN THROWN AROUND.
DOES IT REALLY EVEN MATTER IF WE ARE TO STICK TO YOUR PREMISE OF THE ARTICLE YOU WROTE, DOES ANYONE BRING ANYTHING TO DONALD TRUMP AT THIS POINT OTHER THAN DONALD TRUMP PROMOTING HIMSELF?
>> DONALD TRUMP WOULD LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE ONLY DONALD TRUMP IS THE ONE WHO MATTERS.
AND THAT IS HIS VIEW, ACTUALLY, PRETTY MUCH IN THE ELECTION AND FUTURE ADMINISTRATION IF YOU WERE TO SERVE IN IT.
YOU KNOW?
WHAT IS REMARKABLE ABOUT TRUMP IS A PHENOMENON IS THAT IT REVEALS WHAT IS IN OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL AS HIM.
FOR MANY REPUBLICANS IT SHOWS THE PRINCIPLES THEY VERY LOUDLY PROCLAIMED ARE NOT IN FACT CORE PRINCIPLES FOR THEM.
NIKKI HALEY IN SAYING SHE COULDN'T VOTE FOR TRUMP -- THAT SHE WOULD VOTE FOR TRUMP BECAUSE BIDEN WAS, QUOTE, A CATASTROPHE, THAT IS THE TEMPLATE WE HAVE SEEN FOLLOWED BY MANY CRITICS OF TRUMP JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS.
YOU HAD MITCH McCONNELL, THE SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER WHO LITERALLY BLAMED DONALD TRUMP FOR UNLEASHING THE MOB ON THE CAPITOL BUILDING AT JANUARY SIXTH.
NONETHELESS, HE SAID HE WOULD BE VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP.
YOU HAVE THE SAME THING WITH THE GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, ALSO A PUBLIC CRITIC OF DONALD TRUMP.
YOU KNOW?
ON AND ON THE LIST GOES.
IF YOU WERE SURPRISED BY THIS, ON SOME LEVEL, RIGHT, JUST AS AN OBSERVER, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION.
NIKKI HALEY IS A PARTICULARLY INTERESTING CASE.
SHE MADE HER ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT SUPPORTING TRUMP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SPEECH AT THE HUDSON INSTITUTE IN WHICH SHE WAS ONCE AGAIN SEEKING TO PROVE HER CONSERVATIVE HAWKISH CREDENTIALS AS A NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERT IN HER PARTY.
WELL, SHE WAS SCATHING ABOUT THIS SORT OF TRUMP IN AMERICA FIRST VIEW OF THE WORLD.
SHE BELIEVES TRUMP IN THOSE SUPPORT HIM ON FOREIGN POLICY ARE ESSENTIALLY TWO-WEEK NOT SUPPORTING AMERICAN ALLIES, UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.
YOU KNOW?
LITERALLY, SHE HAS PUBLICLY SAID THAT YOU CAN'T BE ADMIRING OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU KNOW, LEADER OF THE COUNTRY, AND YET, HERE SHE IS ENDORSING TRUMP WHO IS A GREAT PUBLIC ADMIRER OF VLADIMIR PUTIN.
>> JUST YESTERDAY HE SAID IT WAS ONLY HIM WHO COULD GET THE WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER RELEASED BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING ONLY VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD DO IF HE WERE IN OFFICE AND DONALD TRUMP.
QUITE DISTURBING TO SAY THE LEAST.
LET ME MAKE UP A BIT.
IT DOES RELATE TO SOME OF THE POLICIES AND REAL-LIFE CONSEQUENCES THAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHAT WE CAN SEE FROM A SECOND ONE.
THAT IS HIS CONTROL OVER THE SUPREME COURT.
WE KNOW HE APPOINTED THREE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHEN WE SAW ROE V. WADE OVERTURNED IN THE LAST TERM.
ONE OF THE JUSTICES WAS NOT APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP BUT ADDED TO THE CONSERVATIVE BENCH.
THAT IS JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO.
I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION AND THOUGHTS ABOUT THE FLAG GATE CONTROVERSY WE HAVE SEEN.
CLEARLY HE AND HIS WIFE HAVE AN AFFINITY FOR FLAGS.
THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS THERE HAD BEEN AN UPSIDE DOWN FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES AT THEIR HOME, AND AGAIN, HE BLAMED HIS WIFE FOR A FLAG THAT SEEMED TO SUPPORT NOT ONLY THE MAGGART MOVEMENT BUT THE MOVEMENT FOLLOWING JANUARY SIXTH, AND ANOTHER FLAG THAT WAS SEEN IN HIS VACATION HOME IN NEW JERSEY THAT SHOWS AN APPEAL TO HEAVEN FLAG AND HAS HISTORY DATING TO THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR COMING TO SYMBOLIZE TRUMP SUPPORTERS AS WELL.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS BLATANT SORT OF POLITICAL ENDORSEMENT, EVEN IF IT WAS HIS WIFE?
I MEAN, THE FACT THAT THIS IS A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WHO IS DECIDING ON ISSUES, CASES RELATED DIRECTLY TO JANUARY SIXTH AND OTHERS, HOW SHOULD WE INTERPRET THIS?
>> YEAH.
I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, IT IS TERRIFIC REPORTING BY JUDY CANTOR OF THE NEW YORK TIMES.
YOU KNOW?
IT'S AN IMPORTANT STORY THAT RECOGNIZES WHAT WE CAN ALL SORT OF SEE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS WHICH IS THE REAL POLITICIZATION, EVEN MUCH MORE EXPLICIT POLITICIZATION OF THE SUPREME COURT AND WE ARE USED TO.
IN PARTICULAR, WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN IS A 6-3, NOT A CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY, BUT ARGUABLY A RADICAL, SHAKE THINGS UP CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY.
ALITO IS PROBABLY THE LEADER OF THAT NOW MAJORITY FACTION IN THE SUPREME COURT.
YOU'VE GOT TO WONDER, THEY HAVE NOT HAD TO DO MUCH GIVEN THEIR LIFETIME APPROVED JOBS, YOU KNOW, Y -- WHY GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF ANY POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU KNOW?
THE JUDICIAL CODE, I SHOULD POINT OUT, POINTS TO ALL OF THOSE AT LOWER LEVELS IN OUR SYSTEM EXCEPT THE SUPREME COURT IN WHICH IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT ANY DISPLAYS OF PARTISAN AFFILIATION OR EVEN FELLOW THINKING THAT THOSE ARE STRONGLY FROWNED UPON.
AND YET, HE IS UNACCOUNTABLE TO THAT CODE.
>> YEAH.
I THINK, IN ADDITION TO THE LOW APPROVAL RATINGS THAT AMERICANS HAVE FOR OFFICIALS IN GENERAL, IT IS ALARMING WE HAVE STARTED TO SEE AND WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEARS THE APPROVAL RATING FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ALSO CONTINUE TO DECLINE DRASTICALLY.
SUSAN, WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.
HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY WEEKEND.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NEXT, THE POWER OF EVERYDAY ENCOUNTERS.
HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED HOW SOME OF THE BRIEFEST EXCHANGES CAN GIVE BIRTH TO LIFE-CHANGING REALITIES?
BEST-SELLING NOVELIST A MORE TOLL CERTAINLY DID.
HIS OBSERVATIONS INSPIRED HIS NEW BOOK, TABLE FOR 2, A COLLECTION OF SHORT STORIES AND A NOVELLA SET IN THE YEAR 2000.
HE JOINS US TO REFLECT ON THE WORK IN HIS CAREER SO FAR.
>> THANK YOU, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> WALTER, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.
>> YOUR COLLECTION NOW, "TABLE FOR TWO," HAS A GROUP OF SHORT STORIES, THEN A NOVELLA TO IT.
IT IS CALLED "TABLE FOR TWO," WHICH CONFUSED ME AT FIRST.
THEN I REALIZED, ONE THEME, THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF TWO- PERSON ALMOST LIKE KITCHEN TABLE CONVERSATIONS.
IS THAT THE THEME OF THE BOOK?
>> IT'S INTERESTING.
WHEN I FINISHED THE MANUSCRIPT, IT HAD NO TITLE.
I WAS PREPARING TO SEND IT IN.
I NEEDED A TITLE.
I JUST SPENT A YEAR READING THE MATERIAL.
IT'S THE SAME YOU DO WITH YOUR WORK.
YOU READ IT OVER AND OVER.
I SUDDENLY RECOGNIZED IN TWO DIFFERENT STORIES THERE WAS A MOTHER AND DAUGHTER SITTING ACROSS THE KITCHEN TABLE HAVING A SERIOUS CONVERSATION THAT HAS BIG IMPLICATIONS FOR THEIR LIVES.
IN THE NEXT STORY, THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN WHO HAD GOTTEN IN TROUBLE WITH A STRANGER AND HAD BEEN INVITED TO THE STRANGER'S HOUSE, AND AN OLDER MAN, THEY WERE HAVING A SERIOUS CONVERSATION WITH APPLICATION FOR THEIR LIVES.
I THOUGHT, THAT WAS INTERESTING.
THEN I REALIZED IT WAS ALL IN THE STORIES.
THEY WERE WRITTEN IN THE PAST 10 YEARS.
SOMETHING MUST HAVE BEEN SUBCONSCIOUSLY ON MY MIND ABOUT HOW WE, IN OUR LIVES, CAN HAVE A SMALL THING THAT OCCURS THAT ULTIMATELY -- WE MIGHT HAVE TO HASH OUT FACE-TO-FACE IN WAYS THAT COULD HAVE IMPLICATIONS FOR OUR LIVES.
YES, THAT TURNED OUT TO BE AN UNDERLYING THEME FOR THE STORY.
THAT'S WHY CHANGED THE TITLE AS SUCH.
>> IN YOUR STORY, THE LINE, IT'S ABOUT A CHARACTER WHO, HIS STRENGTH IN LINE IS, HE KNOWS HOW TO STAND IN LINE.
>> YES.
>> YET, IN THE END OR IN THE MIDDLE, HE GOES TO THIS MYSTERIOUS LINE WHICH IS CALLED THE AGENCY OF EX-PATRIOT AFFAIRS.
HE IS DOING IT FOR SOMEBODY ELSE, I THINK, IN THE STORY.
BUT HE BECOMES AN EX-PATRIOT.
WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?
WAS THAT SORT OF A COSCO THING OF ESCAPE?
IS IT A FANTASY?
>> IT IS KAFKAESQUE, THAT STORY.
AND IT IS SOMEWHAT OF A FAIRYTALE.
THERE IS SOME DARK HUMOR BUILT INTO IT.
IT SPRINGS FROM WHEN I WAS WRITING IN MOSCOW.
THERE IS A MOMENT WHERE THE CHARACTER RETURNS FROM DOING TIME IN PRISON.
HE IS CYNICALLY VIEWING MUSH -- RUSSIA IN THE 30s OR THE 50s.
HE IS OBSERVING LINES HAVE BECOME A WAY OF LIFE.
HE IS MAKING A DARK OBSERVATION.
WHEN I WAS WRITING THAT PASSAGE, I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, OH, WOULDN'T IT BE INTERESTING IF YOU HAD SOMEBODY, THEY WEREN'T GOOD AT ANYTHING IN LIFE, BUT THEY WERE REALLY GOOD AT STANDING IN LINE, THESE LINES THAT ARE ALL OVER RUSSIA?
THAT'S WHERE THE SHORT STORY CAME FROM.
WHEN I FINISHED THAT, THE FIRST THING I DID WAS WRITE THAT STORY.
SO, IT IS ABOUT THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT, OPEN-MINDED PERSON, BUT IN A DIFFICULT TIME WHO FINDS EXPERTISE IN AN UNUSUAL THING.
>> AND HIS EXPERTISE, STANDING IN LINE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT "TABLE FOR TWO,", IT IS CONTRASTED TO THAT OF HIS WIFE WHO IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACTIVIST, JUST ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WE KIND OF KNOW WHO FINDS A CAUSE AND EMBRACES IT.
WAS THAT A PARTICULAR CONTRAST YOU WERE TRYING TO DRAW?
>> I THINK SO.
THAT POINTS TO A DIFFERENT THING IN THE COLLECTION.
A FRIEND OF MINE OBSERVED THIS.
THESE ARE ALL ABOUT MARRIAGE.
I'M LIKE, THAT IS INTERESTING.
YOU ARE RIGHT.
A LOT OF THE STORIES ARE ABOUT HUSBANDS AND WIVES.
I THINK AS A WRITER, I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED WHEN YOU LEAVE ONE PROJECT INSTEAD OF EXPLORING A DIFFERENT AREA OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE IT FORCES ME TO WRITE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
AND IF I LOOK BACK OVER MY CATALOG AS IT WERE, ONE IS ABOUT 25-YEAR-OLDS IN NEW YORK.
THIS IS ABOUT AN AGING ARISTOCRAT AND THE FRENZY MAKES IN A HOTEL.
A DIFFERENT ONE IS ABOUT 18- YEAR-OLDS.
I'M NOT REALLY IN THOSE WORKS, EXPLORING MARRIAGE.
WAS WRITING THESE SHORT STORIES, IT MUST'VE BEEN A SUGAR -- SUBCONSCIOUSLY ABOUT TURNING BACK ON THIS RELATIONSHIP WHICH IS SO IMPORTANT IN OUR DAILY LIVES, MARRIAGE, WHETHER WE ARE CHILDREN OR SPOUSES, AND IT EXPLORES THE SUBTLETIES OF MARRIAGE, THE DIFFICULTIES THAT CAN ARRIVE, THE ENDEARMENTS THAT CAN EXIST, THE BOND, WHEN IT IS STRONG AND WEAK, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN AREA OF ENDLESS INQUIRY.
>> ONE OF THE GREATEST STORIES IN THE BOOK IS THE BALLOT THE -- BALLAD OF TIMOTHY TOUCH IT.
IN EVERY CHARACTER I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IN MY NONFICTION BIOGRAPHIES, THEY HAVE HAD SORT OF MISFIT AS CHILDHOODS.
WHETHER IT WAS LEONARDO GROWING UP IN THE VILLAGE OF VAN SHE, ALL THE WAY UP TO ELON MUSK, AND I WANT TO REDO A LONG PASSAGE IN THE BOOK.
IF YOU WILL BE PATIENT, IT'S A WONDERFUL PASSAGE.
IT'S ABOUT THE QUESTION OF NOT BEING A MISFIT, AND WHETHER YOU LOSE CREATIVITY IF YOU AREN'T A MISFIT.
YOU WRITE, WOULD IT CAUSE TIMOTHY TO DELAY THE START OF HIS NOVEL?
HE WAS WANTING TO WRITE A NOVEL.
IT WAS A FIERCE, DARK AND DISTURBING -- IT COULD BARELY HOLD KNOWLEDGE.
THE FEELING HE HAD NO STORY TO TELL.
CONSIDER THE LIVES OF SOME OF THESE HEROES.
FAULKNER CAME OF AGE IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, A TIME WHERE IT HAD ITS OWN IDIOSYNCRATIC LANGUAGE.
HEMINGWAY WAS A JOURNALIST WHO DROVE AN AMBULANCE IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR BEFORE HUNTING LIONS IN THE AFRICAN SAVANNA.
AND DOSTOEVSKY GREW UP IN SIBERIA.
YOU GO ON BY THAT.
HOW CAN ONE CRAFT A NOVEL WHEN THE GREATEST INCONVENIENCE INCLUDED MOWING THE LAWN IN THE SPRING AND THE SHOVELING OF SNOW IN THE WINTER?
WHY TIMOTHY'S PARENTS HAD NOT BOTHERED TO SUCCUMB TO ALCOHOLISM OR DIVORCE?
FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME.
DO YOU THINK HAVING A COMPLEX AND DIFFICULT CHILDHOOD ADDS TO CREATIVITY, AND I GUESS I WILL FOLLOW UP BY SAYING, AND HOW WAS YOUR CHILDHOOD?
>> YEAH.
THAT IS IRONICALLY BIOGRAPHICAL, THE EXPLORATION OF THAT PASSAGE.
I DID NOT HAVE A LIFE THAT WAS OF THE KIND THAT FAULKNER EXPERIENCED IN HIS YOUTH, OR CERTAINLY DOSTOEVSKY'S EXPERIENCE IN HIS YOUTH.
AS A YOUNG READER, YOU LOOK AT THESE GIANTS IN LITERATURE.
YOU THINK, OH MY GOD, WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCE THEY TRANSLATED TO THIS WORK.
I THINK, YES, AS A YOUNG WRITER, YOU'RE IN SUBURBIA, I'M BEGINNING TO DOUBT -- OH MY GOD, WHAT AM I GOING TO WRITE ABOUT?
YOU KNOW?
IT'S A LITTLE TONGUE-IN-CHEEK.
I DO THINK WE ALL HAVE THE CAPACITY TO TELL INTRICATE STORIES THROUGH OBSERVATION, THROUGH EXPLORATION OF OUR OWN FEELINGS, THROUGH THE CONVERSATIONS WE HAVE WITH STRANGERS.
WE CAN ACCESS HUMANITY AT A LEVEL THAT CAN ALLOW US TO BUILD GREAT NARRATIVES REGARDLESS OF OUR PATHS.
IT IS A WINKING SORT OF PICTURE OF MYSELF ABOUT ANXIETY I HAD AS A YOUNG MAN.
I'M KIND OF OVER IT NOW.
I'M KIND OF GLAD I DID NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH IN ORDER TO WRITE A BEST-SELLING BOOK.
>> WHEN YOU WERE AT THE NEW ORLEANS BOOK FESTIVAL, YOU WERE TALKING WITH YOUR FRIEND MICHAEL LEWIS.
YOU WERE TALKING WITH HIM AS HE HAD BEEN, BEING IN FINANCE FOR A LONG TIME.
BEING IN THE WALL STREET BANKING TYPE.
AND YOU, IT SEEMS, WERE SAVED BY PETER MATHESON.
TELL ME THAT.
>> YEAH.
PETER WAS A GREAT AMERICAN BOTH A WRITER OF NATIONAL HISTORY, NATIONAL TOPICS, BUT ALSO A NOVELIST.
HE CAME TO YELL -- YALE WHEN I WAS AN UNDERGRADUATE.
I GOT A FRIENDSHIP AND MENTOR SHIP.
I DID HAVE A DIVERGENCE.
I SPENT 20 YEARS IN THE INVESTMENT BUSINESS.
AND IT REALLY HISSED HIM OFF.
HE SAID, I SPENT TIME ENCOURAGING YOU, AND YOU WORKED IN WALL STREET?
EVENTUALLY HE SAID, LISTEN, I THINK YOUR TIME IN WALL STREET IS GOING TO RUIN YOUR CAREER.
I THINK YOU WILL NEVER BE AN ARTIST.
OVER DINNER ONE NIGHT, THAT BECAME FOR ME THAT JACOB MARLEY, YOU KNOW, SHAKING HIS CHAINS AT SCROOGE.
LETTING HIM KNOW WHAT STATE AHEAD IF HE STAYED ON THE SAME TRACK.
AT ONE POINT, PETER GAVE ME GIFTS AS A YOUNG WRITER, ACKNOWLEDGING OR EXPERIENCING I MIGHT HAVE TALENT.
HE GAVE ME THE SECOND GIFT IN LIFE WHICH IS TO SAY, IF YOU DON'T PURSUE YOUR CRAFT, YOU WILL END UP, I THINK, DISAPPOINTED WITH YOURSELF.
SO, I BEGAN TO WRITE ON THE WEEKENDS WHEN RULES OF CIVILITY BECAME A BESTSELLER I RETIRED FROM THE FIRM.
THERE'S A LONG ROAD TO IT.
THE BIGGEST THING IS, IT WAS A ROAD I HAD TO TAKE.
>> WHEN YOU ARE CONCEIVING THE NOVEL PERHAPS ONE OF THESE SHORT STORIES IN , "TABLE FOR TWO,", DO YOU INDOOR A SENSE OF PLACE, OR DO YOU CONCEIVE THE CHARACTERS FIRST, OR DO YOU CONCEIVE THE POT FIRST?
>> FOR ME, STORIES TEND TO START WITH A VERY SIMPLE PREMISE.
LIKE, I DID -- I WAS IN A HOTEL.
I THOUGHT, OH, ONE YEAR IN GENEVA, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE TO BE TRAPPED IN A HOTEL FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME?
THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF A GENTLEMAN IN MOSCOW.
WHEN I HAVE AN IDEA LIKE THAT, I TEND TO QUICKLY -- I REALIZE THAT IS AN INTERESTING STORY.
I TEND TO SEE THINGS VERY QUICKLY THAT ARE THE BASICS.
RIGHT AWAY I WAS LIKE, IT COULD BE IN RUSSIA.
HE COULD BE AN ARISTOCRAT SENTENCED TO HOUSE ARREST IN A FANCY HOTEL NEAR THE KREMLIN.
THE STORY CAN SPAN FROM THE REVOLUTION OF THE COLD WAR.
ALL OF THAT I KNEW IN A MATTER OF MINUTES.
WHAT YOU DESCRIBE, YOU START TO BUILD UP THE IDEA OVER TIME.
I WILL SPEND A COUPLE YEARS DESIGNING A BOOK WHERE I WILL TRY TO IMAGINE EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS, ALL THE SETTINGS, THE PEOPLE AND THEIR BACKGROUNDS, THE PSYCHOLOGY, FILLING NOTEBOOKS BY HAND AS I IN ESSENCE BUILD A WORLD.
IT IS NOT IN AN ORDER.
IT'S NOT THE ORDER YOU ARE DOING.
YOU ARE BUILDING EACH ELEMENT OF IT SIDE-BY-SIDE.
YOU GET A LITTLE BETTER SENSE OF THE PLACE, BETTER SENSE OF THE PEOPLE, BETTER SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENS, THEN YOU GOT TO START AGAIN AND ADVANCE, THEN ADVANCE.
THEN SLOWLY, YOU KNOW, BUILD THIS WORLD.
ONE OF THE WORLD CLEARLY, THEN I, YOU KNOW, BUILD AN OUTLINE AND START TO WRITE THE CHAPTER.
>> YOUR CHARACTERS ARE SO WILDLY DIFFERENT.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ARISTOCRATIC MAN IN GENTLEMAN IN MOSCOW.
BUT THERE IS A WORKING-CLASS WOMAN FROM BROOKLYN IN ONE OF YOUR STORIES, A FARM BOY FROM NEBRASKA.
HOW DO YOU GET IN THE HEADS OF SUCH DIFFERENT PEOPLE?
>> I AM IN THAT SCHOOL.
I WAS RAISED IN THE NOTION THAT TO MASTER MY CRAFT, YOU WOULD WRITE SHORT STORIES FROM AS MANY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AS POSSIBLE, TAKING ON DIFFERENT LIVES.
BY DOING SO, RATHER THAN RISK WRITING ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES, LET'S SAY, BECAUSE BY WRITING ABOUT DIFFERENT PEOPLE, IT FORCES ME OR ANY YOUNG WRITER TO TRY TO IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD LIKE TO BE IN THAT SITUATION, WHAT WOULD BE MY VOCABULARY?
HOW WOULD BE MY MORALS?
HOW WOULD I DESCRIBE A SITUATION THAT I STEPPED INTO IF I WAS AN 18-YEAR-OLD WOMAN IN BERKELEY IN THE 60s VERSUS, YOU KNOW, A VIETNAMESE VIOLIN REPAIRMAN IN THE 19th CENTURY?
THEY WOULD SEE THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY.
THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY.
SO, YOU TEACH YOURSELF THROUGH SHORT STORIES TAKEN FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES HOW TO LOOK AT THE WORLD SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE.
AND THEN, OVER TIME, IT STARTS TO BECOME SECOND NATURE.
NOW WHEN I AM CREATING A NOVEL, ALL MY CHARACTERS ARE INVENTED.
IT'S A NATURAL PROCESS FOR ME TO INVENT THEM ONE BY ONE BY ONE AFTER SORT OF DECADES OF TRAINING MYSELF TO IMAGINE THE WORLD IN NARRATIVE THROUGH THE EYES OF OTHERS.
>> ONE OF THE COMPLEX THINGS IS, TO ME, HOW YOU CHOOSE NARRATORS IN YOUR STORY.
SOMETIMES IN OUR MISSION, THEY KNOW THE STORY.
SOMETIMES THEY ARE PART OF THE ACTION.
SOMETIMES THEY ARE LIKE NICK CARRAWAY IN THE GREAT GATSBY, OBSERVING THINGS.
HOW DO YOU CHOOSE NARRATOR STYLES?
>> IT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.
I THINK ABOUT SHORT STORIES, NOVELS, EITHER ONE, THE WHOLE PROCESS OF INVENTION, DECIDING WHO THE NARRATOR IS IS THE MOST DIFFICULT DECISION AND THE MOST INTERESTING DECISION I WILL MAKE.
CHECKING OUT WHERE IT HAPPENS, WHEN IT HAPPENS, WHAT HAPPENS, WHO IS IN THE STORY, THESE ARE ALL IMPORTANT DECISIONS, BUT NOTHING COMPARED TO WHO IS GOING TO TELL THE STORY.
AND IT COULD BE, AS YOU SAY, THE OMNISCIENT NARRATOR UP HERE WHO KNOWS ALL.
IT COULD BE SOMEBODY WHO IS RELATED TO THE MAIN CHARACTER, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE A SPOUSE.
IT COULD BE A STRANGER OBSERVING THE EVENTS, IT COULD BE THE MAIN CHARACTER, HIS OR HERSELF, TELLING IT IN FIRST PERSON.
AND ONCE I KIND OF KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, WHEN'S GONNA HAPPEN, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THEY ARE GOING TO START GOING THROUGH DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVES TO TRY TO FEEL, WHERE IS THE STORY?
WHERE DOES IT BELONG?
WHO SHOULD BE TELLING IT, AND IN WHAT TONE?
I MAY TRY IT IN MY HEAD OR WRITING IN DIFFERENT WAYS UNTIL SUDDENLY YOU SAY, OH YEAH, THIS IS IT.
THIS IS THE PERSON WHO SHOULD TELL IT.
HERE IS SORT OF AN INTERESTING THING I THINK ABOUT "TABLE FOR TWO," THAT READERS CAN LOOK AT OR CONSIDER.
SIX STORIES IN NEW YORK ARE LAID OUT IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU MOVE FROM THE MOTION -- MOST OMNISCIENT NEIGHBOR, HE KNOWS THE NAME, THE FIRST TWO STORIES, THEN YOU GET SOME STORIES WHERE THE PERSON IS AN OBSERVER.
IT'S -- IT'S THEIR SPOUSE WHO IS INVOLVED IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE.
IF THEIR FATHER INVOLVED IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE.
THEN YOU GET STORIES WERE IT'S THE INDIVIDUAL TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEMSELVES.
AS YOU READ THE STORIES, YOU'RE KIND OF MOVING FROM WAY UP HERE DOWN TO A CLOSER AND CLOSER PROXIMITY.
THAT IS -- IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TYPE OF STORYTELLING.
THE READER MAY ENJOY GOING THROUGH THAT EXPERIENCE OF HOW THE SHIFT IN ORIENTATION CHANGES THE WAY THE STORY UNFOLDS.
>> YOUR STORY, EVE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD, IT SORT OF SPRINGS OUT OF YOUR RULES OF CIVILITY NOVEL, EVE, THE CHARACTER.
HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT GOING BACK TO A GENTLEMAN IN MOSCOW OR OTHER THINGS ARE DOING THAT?
>> I THINK GENTLEMAN IN MOSCOW ENDS IN A BEAUTIFULLY DEFINITIVE WAY FOR ME.
IT IS HOLISTIC.
THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY IS SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER RETURNING TO, BILLY AND SALLY AT THE END OF THAT STORY, THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING SORT OF A GREAT NEW ADVENTURE AS IT WERE, THE ADVENTURE OF ADULTHOOD, I GUESS, AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, GOING OFF TO CALIFORNIA.
I CAN IMAGINE BEING DRAWN BACK INTO THAT -- TELLING THAT STORY, PROBABLY NOT IN THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS BUT MAYBE A DECADE FROM NOW.
>> YOU KNOW, READING YOUR NOVELS, TO ME, IT IS MY PERSONAL BEST REASON WE SHOULD READ NOVELS.
TELL ME IN YOUR WORDS, WHY SHOULD WE READ NOVELS?
>> I THINK, READING NOVELS PROVIDE -- ONE THING THEY PROVIDE, WE WILL DISCUSS IN A SECOND.
THE NOVEL IS PRETTY UNIQUE FOR ME IN TERMS OF THE ARTS IN THAT IT CAN PLACE US IN THE POSITION OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
AND IT CAN DO IT SO POWERFULLY THAT WE, AS READERS, SOMETHING IN THE MAIN CHARACTER WE ARE REALLY EMBEDDED IN THE STORY, SOMETHING FUNNY HAPPENS TO THE CHARACTER, WE LAUGH OUT LOUD WHAT WE ARE READING.
IF SOMETHING TRAGIC HAPPENS, WE MAY SHOULD TEARS AS WE ARE READING.
WHEN THE CHARACTER HAS A VICTORY, A MINOR VICTORY, WE FEEL -- YOU KNOW?
WHEN SOMETHING MEAN IS DONE TO THEM, WE FEEL INDIGNANT.
YOU KNOW?
WE START TO SEE THE WORLD TO SOME DEGREE.
WE CAN SEE THE WORLD FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A CHARACTER WHO WE HAVE BECOME INTERESTED IN.
SO, THE NOVEL HAS A UNIQUE WAY -- I DON'T THINK THE FILMS DO ANY OF THIS.
I DON'T THINK NONFICTION ACHIEVES THIS IN THE SAME WAY, THIS IDEA OF SORT OF GIVING YOURSELF OVER TO THE CHARACTER AND SEEING THE WORLD AS IT UNFOLDS TO THEM, BUT TAKING IT VERY PERSONALLY.
THAT OPENS THE DOOR TO THIS EXTRAORDINARY DYNAMIC WHERE OBVIOUSLY, EMPATHY GROWS OUT OF THAT, WE SUDDENLY CAN TAKE THE FEELINGS OF OTHERS MORE SERIOUSLY, OUR ABILITY TO MANAGE OURSELVES AND EXPERIENCES WE HAVE NOT HAD WHICH ADDS TO BOTH EMPATHY AND ADVENTURE AND CURIOSITY UNFOLDS -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS REALLY THE GREAT POWER OF THE NOVEL.
IT CAN ALLOW US TO ENTER THE WORLD FROM NEW ANGLES TO SEE EXPERIENCES WE HAVE NOT WITNESSED OURSELVES, TO IMAGINE THEM IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY IN A WAY THAT OPENS BOTH OUR HEART AND OUR MIND.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> WALTER, IT IS GREAT TO BE HERE.
IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.
>>> FINALLY, THIS YEAR'S FILM FESTIVAL HAS SEEN MANY FEMALE ICONS IN THE SPOTLIGHT, INCLUDING MERYL STREEP WHO WAS AWARDED AN HONORARY PALM DOOR.
FRENCH FEMALE FILMMAKERS ARE CALLING ON MISOGYNY AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN THE INDUSTRY.
BACK IN 2018, HOLLYWOOD HAD ITS OWN RECKONING WITH THE MID TO MOVEMENT.
WE SPOKE TO MERYL STREEP AND TOM HANKS ABOUT THE TIME ABOUT THEIR FILM, THE POST, DEPICTING THE TRUE STORY OF THE WASHINGTON POST DECISION TO PUBLISH THE PANAMA PAPERS.
NOW, WITH PRESS FREEDOM AT AN ALL-TIME LOW, WE WANT TO REVISIT THE CONVERSATION THAT IS STILL SO RELEVANT TODAY.
>> MERYL STREEP, TOM HANKS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
SO, INCREDIBLE FILM, REALLY, WHAT INCREDIBLE TIMING.
STEVEN SPIELBERG CALLED IT A PATRIOTIC FILM.
WOULD YOU AGREE?
>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK ANYTHING THAT GETS DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF AN ASSAULT ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND PROVES THAT PRESS IS ONE OF THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY, I THINK THAT IS A PATRIOTIC MESSAGE TO PUT OUT.
THIS ORIGINAL SCRIPT I READ WAS REALLY ABOUT THE WEEK CATHERINE GRAHAM BECAME CATHERINE GRAHAM.
IN THE FOLD IN, YOU KNOW, A PRESIDENT THAT WAS TRYING TO THWART THE TRUTH, ATTACK, DELEGITIMIZE THE PRESS, CARRYING IT ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT MAKING DECISIONS AS WELL AS THE REALITY OF WHAT A WOMAN FACED IN THE BOARD ROOM WHEN THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A MERITOCRACY, PUT THAT TOGETHER.
I THINK IT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR THIS IN 1971 AND SUB BEING A CULPRIT FOR 2018 NOW.
WHEN YOU CAN GO BACK AND STUDY AROUND HISTORY AND SEE HOW IT RELATES TO NOW, YOU REALIZE THIS ONGOING FIGHT TO FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION IS AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE.
>> I'M STRUCK BY WHAT YOU SAY.
IT IS THE WEEK CATHERINE GRAHAM BECAME CATHERINE GRAHAM.
SHE DID BECOME ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING CEOs WHO BELIEVED IN QUALITY, THAT WAS GOOD FOR THE BUSINESS, AND SHE WAS BRAVE BECAUSE SHE WENT AGAINST HER OWN GROUP OF FRIENDS, HER OWN TRIBE.
SHE WAS SO FRIENDLY WITH ROBERT McNAMARA AND ALL THE CABINET SECRETARIES.
WHAT, WHEN YOU TRIED TO INTERNALIZE IT, YOU ALWAYS DO A GREAT JOB OF LOOKING LIKE HER AND SOUNDING LIKE HER, WHAT WERE YOU AIMING FOR IN THAT PORTRAYAL?
>> I WAS AIMING, REALLY, TO PORTRAY A WOMAN OF MY MOTHER'S GENERATION WHO CONFRONTED A MOMENT IN THE 70s WHEN EVERYTHING CHANGED FOR WOMEN.
I MEAN, IT WAS SORT OF A BREAKOUT MOMENT AT THE TIME THAT THIS FILM TAKES PLACE, 1971, IT IS A WEEK AND A HALF IN THAT TIME PERIOD IT WAS WHEN KENT STATE WAS HAPPENING.
ALL THOSE -- ALL THE SOCIAL UPHEAVALS.
SHE WAS A WOMAN OF ANOTHER GENERATION.
AND SHE WAS ON THE FULCRUM OF CHANGE.
SHE WAS ONE OF THE FEW CEOs.
THERE WERE NO FEMALE CEOs OF ANY INDUSTRY, ANY COMPANIES AT THAT TIME, VERY, VERY RARE.
SHE WAS ONLY IN THE POSITION BECAUSE SHE INHERITED IT.
HER FATHER OWNED THE PAPER.
SHE PASSED IT TO HER HUSBAND, AND SHE BASICALLY WAS 45 YEARS OLD WHEN HER HUSBAND DIED.
AND THE MANTLE OF THE POST, 3000 EMPLOYEES, EVERYTHING FELL TO HER.
SHE DIDN'T FEEL TOTALLY QUALIFIED TO BE THERE.
>> I HAVE A CLIP WE ARE GOING TO PLAY RIGHT NOW, IT'S WHEN CATHERINE GRAHAM IS LOOKING A LITTLE UNSURE AT A BREAKFAST WITH YOU, TOM HANKS, BENJAMIN BRADLEE, THE LEGENDARY EDITOR OF THE WASHINGTON POST, AND YOU ARE NOT QUITE SURE WHO IS WHO'S BOSS.
HERE IS THE CLIP.
>> ARE YOU SURE WE ARE STRIKING THE RIGHT TONE HERE?
>> OH, WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS AGAIN?
>> THE NEW STYLE SECTION, STILL LITTLE, COVERAGE -- >> -- HANDLING IT, LOOKING FOR A NEW EDITOR.
>> ARE YOU?
I KNOW I HAVE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
WE ARE LOSING FEMALE READERSHIP, YOU KNOW?
I THINK YOU MIGHT WANT TO FOCUS MORE -- >> CATHERINE, KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF MY EYE.
>> YOU -- >> WAS BEEN THE SORT OF DRIVER OF EVENTS, OR WAS CATHERINE GRAHAM HIS BOSS?
YOU COULD SEE HE WAS PUSHING HER TO THIS DECISION.
>> I THINK THE ONLY WAY BEN WAS CATHERINE'S EQUAL WAS IN HIS DESIRE TO DO GREAT JOURNALISM.
HE WAS NOT THE MAN WHO MADE THE CALL.
HE WAS THE MAN WHO PURSUED IT AND GOT IT, THEN HAD TO PRESENT IT IN THIS MANNER OF, SO, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
HE KNEW WHAT THE STAKES WERE.
I THINK I WAS CONFOUNDED BY HAVING THE GREATEST JOB IN THE WORLD.
HE LOVED WHAT HE DID.
HE WAS A PIRATE AND A BEAST.
HE WAS JUST A CAD IN SO MANY WAYS.
HE LOVED HIS JOB.
HE FILLED UP A ROOM IN A BIG WAY.
EVERYONE KNEW WHEN THAT BRADLEY WAS WALKING IN.
HE HAD JOY AND EXPERTISE HE EXUDED.
BUT HE WAS SECOND PLACE BEHIND THE WASHINGTON STAR IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
THEY HAD THE NUMBER TWO OR THREE PAPER DEPENDING ON WHAT THE WEEK WAS.
FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES WHICH WAS ONE OF THE BIG BOYS TO GET THE BIGGEST STORY IN THE WORLD, HE WAS -- HE SALIVATED IN ORDER TO PLAY IN THAT SAME -- >> HE WANTED TO CATCH UP.
>> HE WANTED TO CATCH UP.
THE MOMENT PUSH CAME TO SHOVE, HE HAD THE PAPERS THAT TOLD THE TRUTH, AND TO PUBLISH THEM WOULD BE TO RUN AFOUL OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT WAS BELOW HIS PAY GRADE.
UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS IN HERS.
>> IT WAS MY DECISION, YEAH.
>> IT WAS YOUR DECISION, YOU, CATHERINE GRAHAM.
AND MERRILL, ALL THE PRESIDENTS MEN BARELY MENTIONED CATHERINE GRAHAM.
SHE WAS AIRBRUSHED OUT OF THAT.
DO YOU FEEL THIS FILM WITH HER AS ONE OF THE CENTRAL CHARACTERS IS PART OF THE RECKONING WE ARE UNDERGOING RIGHT NOW?
IS IT REALLY ABOUT GETTING HER HEARD DO?
>> I THINK PEOPLE LOOKED UP AND RECOGNIZED THEY ARE MORE AWARE OF WHO IS NOT AT THE TABLE, AND WHO IS LEFT OUT OF HISTORY.
BECAUSE OFTEN, THE MORE COLORFUL PERSONALITIES LIKE BEN BRADLEY COMMANDEER THE ATTENTION.
BUT, WE ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY LAY.
WE ARE THE HARD DECISION, WHO IS LEFT?
THAT WAS HER.
AND THE ONLY REASON THAT WOODWARD AND BERNSTEIN WERE ABLE TO CARRY THROUGH WITH THE WATERGATE INVESTIGATION, THAT THEY HAD THE CONFIDENCE THEY WOULD BE SUPPORTED THE WHOLE WASHINGTON POST ORGANIZATION INCLUDING THE TELEVISION STATIONS AND EVERYTHING, WAS BECAUSE OF THE SUCCESS OF THE PENTAGON PAPERS WERE THEY REALLY, IN A MOMENT OF CRISIS, THE BEAT DOWN THE BAD GUYS, AND THEY WON.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE TRIUMPH OF TRUTH THAT YOUR MOVIE, THE POST, PAYS HOMAGE TO.
IN A YEAR OF FAKE NEWS AND ALTERNATIVE FACTS, WHAT YOU STARTED SUPPORTED THE FREE PRESS, SUPPORTED THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS.
THE WASHINGTON PRESS ASSOCIATION ANNOUNCED A $1 MILLION GRANT, A DONATION PROBABLY BECAUSE OF YOU TO THE C PJ.
HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT, DO YOU THINK, FOR YOU BOTH?
>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK THE PRESS IS UNDER SIEGE, GLOBALLY.
AND WE HAVE SEEN SO MANY JOURNALISTS JAILED IN EXPONENTIALLY GREATER NUMBERS NOW.
PART OF THAT FEELS LIKE SOME KIND OF PERMISSION ISSUED TACITLY BY THE UNITED STATES THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO SHUT IT DOWN, SHUT IT DOWN.
AND WE'VE HAD JOURNALISTS KILLED, JAILED, FAMOUSLY, WHAT'S THE NAME, DELETE SIA, THE WOMAN WHO BROUGHT OUT THE PANAMA PAPERS IN MALTA, THE WOMAN CUTTING HER NECK IN RUSSIA, YOU KNOW?
THE BAD GUYS WILL ALWAYS WANT TO SHUT US DOWN.
>> YOU KNEW BEN BRADLEY.
OBVIOUSLY, HE'S BEEN A GREAT FRIEND OF YOURS.
YOU PLAYED A JOURNALIST IN THE PLAY ON BROADWAY.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU, THE SANCTITY, THE FREE AND INDEPENDENT PRESS TO WALK AWAY UNHINDERED?
>> I GO BACK TO WHAT DANNY MONAHAN SAID.
YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS, BUT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS.
IN SOME CULTURES, THEY TAKE SLEDGEHAMMERS TO PRINTING PRESSES AND SLICE THE NECKS OF WOMEN JOURNALISTS WHO GET THE TRUTH.
YOU HAVE A STATE RUN, HERE IS WHAT OUR KING DID TODAY, ISN'T HE A WONDERFUL MAN, AND THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW, YOU ARE LIVING IN ROMANIA UNDER CHA-CHA SKU.
IN ORDER FOR THERE TO BE THE TRUE FIRST AMENDMENT, THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT TELL YOU HOW TO WORSHIP GOD.
THEY CANNOT TELL YOU WHO NOT TO ASSOCIATE WITH, AND FINALLY, A FREEDOM OF OPPRESSIVE JOURNALISTS TO PUT THE RECORD STRAIGHT.
THIS IS WHAT HAS MADE AMERICA AMERICA, AND TO HAVE ANY SORT OF GUERRILLA WAR BEING PLACED AGAINST PEOPLE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO GO OFF AND FIND THE TRUTH IS A THREAT TO US ALL.
>> SO, LET'S GO TO ANOTHER MAJOR BATTLE WE ARE ALL FACING RIGHT NOW.
IT IS OBVIOUSLY THE MID TO BATTLE.
IT STARTED -- ACTUALLY, IT STARTED WITH GRETCHEN CARLSON AND FOX NEWS OUTING THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT AT THE TOP OF THE PINNACLE OF POWER THERE.
AND A YEAR LATER, COMING TO A HOLLYWOOD WITH HARVEY WEINSTEIN.
WHERE DO YOU THINK, AS A WOMAN, THIS MOVEMENT IS GOING?
>> WELL, I THINK, SOMEONE SAID, WE ARE BUILDING THE AIRPLANE WHILE WE ARE TAKING OFF, YOU KNOW?
THE SAME TIME WE ARE TAKING OFF.
THE ME TO MOVEMENT REALLY STARTED WITH TORONTO BURKE 10 YEARS AGO IN RESPONSE TO ABUSE OF YOUNG WOMEN OF COLOR IN THE SOUTH.
AND SHE WORKED AND CONTINUES TO WORK ON THOSE ISSUES.
THIS IS A VERY OLD BATTLE.
IT IS A BATTLE OF DOMINANCE.
SAME WITH THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.
WHO IS GOING TO GET TO BE TOP DOG?
>> WHAT IS IT WITH ROSE McGOWAN WHO HAS ACCUSED YOU OF TACITLY KNOWING AND NOT SAYING, ALL THESE YEARS YOU WORKED IN SOME RESPECT FOR HARVEY WEINSTEIN?
>> I'M SURE, I'M SURE IN MANY WAYS SHE WISHED I KNEW.
WHAT HAPPENED TO ROSE IS UNBEARABLE.
IT STICKS A KNIFE IN EVERYONE'S HEART, THAT THIS MAN WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE IN HIS -- THE WAY HE WORKED ON PEOPLE, OVER THE BODIES OF WOMEN.
HE MADE A BUSINESS OVER THE BODIES OF WOMEN.
AND GOING FORWARD, WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE SURVIVORS, FIGURE OUT SOLUTIONS WHY, LEGISLATIVELY, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN FOR ROSE.
I HAVE NOTHING BUT EMPATHY AND HOPE THAT SHE FINDS A WAY TO HEAL.
I REALLY DO.
>> AND ON THE RECORD, YOU SAID YOU WERE PROBABLY TOO BIG FOR HIM TO TRY ANYTHING ON YOUR BEHAVIOR AROUND YOU.
>> YEAH.
I THINK THE ASSUMPTION IS, I NEEDED HIM FOR MY CAREER.
BUT I DIDN'T NEED HARVEY.
HARVEY NEEDED ME.
WHAT HAPPENED TO ROSE WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, BECAUSE THERE'S A NETWORK OF WOMEN NOW THAT IS PRETTY FORMIDABLE.
WE ALL TALK TO EACH OTHER.
OUR BUSINESS HAS BENEFITED FROM THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T, FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
THIS IS MAKING PEOPLE IN THE CORPORATE SUITES SHAKE IN THEIR BOOTS, THE AGENTS, SHAKE IN THEIR BOOTS.
IT IS GOING TO CHANGE THE FACE OF OUR INDUSTRY.
BECAUSE FOR SO MANY YEARS, WE HAVE BEEN UNDERVALUED, UNDERPAID AND EXPLOITED.
SO, THAT IS OVER.
>> TOM HANKS, MERYL STREEP, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER, PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR .
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
JOIN US NEXT TIME.