May 1, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> CONSIDER YOURSELF UNDER ARREST FOR REFUSING TO DISPERSE.

>> AS POLICE SWEEP ONTO CAMPUSES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, RABBI SHARON BROUS VISITED WHAT PROTESTERS CALL THEIR PEACE MOVEMENT AT COLUMBIA AND UCLA.

IN SEARCH OF A MORAL MESSAGE AT THE HEART OF THIS CONFRONTATION.

>>> THEN -- >> CAN YOU SHOW ME THE WARHEAD?

I'VE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.

>> WITH IRAN'S WEAPONS TARGETING ISRAEL AND UKRAINE, CORRESPONDENT FRED POLITE AGAIN REPORTS FROM TEHRAN.

>>> AND AS IRAN FLEXES ITS MUSCLES ABROAD, THERE IS ANGER AT HOME OVER A CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

I SPEAK WITH REGIONAL EXPERTS.

>>> PLUS -- >> WHEN EVERYTHING IS ANTI-SEMITIC, NOTHING IS ANTI-SEMITIC.

>> MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH KENNETH STERN, WHO DRAFTED THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, USED BY GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE WORLD.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

POLICE HAVE MOVED ONTO AMERICAN CAMPUSES FROM COAST TO COAST.

OVER 1,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AT MORE THAN 25 COLLEGES, AND TODAY, THE NEW YORK CITY MAYOR ERIC ADAMS BLAMED OUTSIDE AGITATORS FOR CREATING CHAOS, HE SAID, AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

>> YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BEING INFLUENCED BY THOSE WHO ARE PROFESSIONALS AT RADICALIZING OUR CHILDREN.

AT THE REQUEST OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, AFTER SPEAKING WITH THEM THROUGHOUT THE WEEK, AT THEIR REQUEST, AND THEIR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT OUTSIDE AGITATORS WERE ON THEIR GROUNDS, TRAINING AND REALLY COOPTING THIS MOVEMENT.

>> POWERFUL POLITICIANS ARE ALSO USING THESE DEMONSTRATIONS FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES.

THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR.

HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON SAYS REPUBLICANS PLAN TO TARGET CAMPUS UNREST, QUOTE, LIKE WHITE ON RICE, PRESSURING COLLEGES TO FURTHER CRACK DOWN ON DEMONSTRATIONS.

AT THE HEART OF IT ALL, MOSTLY PEACEFUL PROTESTS AGAINST A DIRE SITUATION IN GAZA, AND A DEEP DISSATISFACTION WITH U.S. POLICY IN THE REGION.

EVEN NOW, ISRAEL STANDS BY PLANS TO INVADE RAFAH, WHERE MORE THAN A MILLION PALESTINIAN REFUGEES LACK EVEN THE BASICS TO SUSTAIN LIFE.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS.

AND SO, HOW DOES SOCIETY FIND MORAL CLARITY IN A MOMENT SUCH AS THIS?

IN THE FACE OF ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-PALESTINIAN HATE, HOW DO UNIVERSITIES STAND UP FOR THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF STUDENTS TO PROTEST PEACEFULLY?

AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, AGAINST U.S. POLICY, OVER THE VIETNAM WAR, OR SOUTH AFRICA'S APARTHEID REGIME, OR THE GLOBAL STUDENT MOVEMENT THAT TOOK UP GRETA THUNBERG'S CALL TO SAVE OUR PLANET FROM MAN-MADE CLIMATE CHANGE.

RABBI SHARON BROUS IS THE FOUNDER OF IKAR, AN INFLUENTIAL PROGRESSIVE JEWISH CONGREGATION IN LOS ANGELES, AND LAST WEEK, SHE VISITED BOTH COLUMBIA AND UCLA TO WITNESS THE PROTESTS, AND SHE'S JOINING US RIGHT NOW.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, RABBI.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>> AND I MEANT TO ALSO SAY IN MY INTRODUCTION THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE DIRE SITUATION IN GAZA, BUT IT'S ALSO THE IDEA BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT WITH OR WITHOUT A CEASE-FIRE DEAL, THEY'RE GOING TO GO INTO GAZA, INTO RAFAH, WITHOUT EVEN GETTING THE HOSTAGES BACK, THAT, THEY TOLD THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

BUT JUST FIRST TELL ME, WHAT MADE YOU LITERALLY GET UP AND FLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO GO TO COLUMBIA AND WHAT DID YOU SEE?

AND THEN ALSO AT UCLA?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING IS THAT, CLEARLY, THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT, AND WE HAVE SUCH A PROUD HISTORY OF PROTEST IN THIS COUNTRY, AND ALSO AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, IN PARTICULAR, WHICH IS MY ALMA MATER, THERE'S SUCH A PROUD HISTORY OF PROTEST, AND IN OUR JEWISH TRADITION, THERE'S A PROUD HISTORY OF PROTEST, AND I BELIEVE THIS IS BORN IN MANY WAYS OUT OF A LEGITIMATE ANGUISH OVER THE INCREDIBLE LOSS OF LIFE THAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED IN THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS, STARTING WITH THE ATROCITIES OF OCTOBER 7th.

AND THEN THIS WAR WITH ITS STAGGERING DEATH TOLL TO PALESTINIANS LIVING IN GAZA OVER THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS.

SO, I SEE THE PROTESTS AS A KIND OF GROWING OUT OF A LEGITIMATE ANGUISH AND SORROW AND MORAL CONCERN THAT THIS WAR MUST END.

AND WHAT I WANTED TO SEE AND UNDERSTAND IS THAT I HAVE SEEN MANY VIDEOS AND HEARD PERSONAL REPORTS FROM PEOPLE I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT ON THAT CAMPUS ABOUT A GROWING THREAD OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN THAT PLACE, AND THAT IS MANIFESTING IN PEOPLE SURROUNDING JEWISH STUDENTS, SAYING THINGS LIKE, WE'RE GOING TO DO OCTOBER 7th AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND CHANTING THINGS LIKE KILL YOURSELF, KILL YOURSELF, CALLING PEOPLE NAZI [ BLEEP ] WHILE THEY'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET, ET CETERA, AND SO, I MEAN, THIS IS TRULY A HORRIFIC NEW ERA THAT WE'VE ENTERED, WHERE WE SEE THE NORMALIZATION OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN A VERY DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE, AND SO, WHAT I WANT TO DO IS BOTH AFFIRM THE IMPORTANCE OF PUBLIC PROTEST AS A WAY OF COLLECTIVELY GRIEVING SOMETHING TRULY TERRIBLE THAT'S HAPPENING, AND THINKING CREATIVELY ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE BORN OUT OF THIS MOMENT, AND ALSO, AT THE SAME TIME, RECOGNIZE THAT THE ELIMINATIONALIST ROTE RICK THAT THE ANTI-SEMITIC RHETORIC, THAT THE MAX MALLIST RHETORIC OF THE PROTEST IS PROFOUNDLY UNHELPFUL.

AND THERE ARE PROTECTS OF THIS PROTEST -- >> SORRY, SORRY, I JUST WANTED TO GET A QUESTION IN THERE, BECAUSE THOSE BITS ARE IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH.

>> I KIND OF WANTED TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAW THERE, BECAUSE IN THE INSTAGRAM FEED, YOU TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO YOU SAW INCLUDING JEWISH STUDENTS, YOU SAID THEY SET OUT FOOD, EVERYBODY WAS TRYING TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THIS IS VITAL, AND IT IS BEING HIJACKED, AS YOU HEARD FROM THE MAYOR, AT LEAST, CORNERS OF IT, FROM THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK, AND THE IDEA THAT, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, SHOULD THE PROTEST BE VIEWED THROUGH THE LENS OF THE UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR AND THE WORDS OF A MINORITY.

DO YOU BELIEVE IT IS RIGHT TO TARNISH THE WHOLE MOVEMENT LIKE THAT?

BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE SAY IT'S MOSTLY PEACEFUL.

>> RIGHT, AND WHAT I SAW WHEN I WAS ON CAMPUS AT COLUMBIA LAST THURSDAY WAS PEACEFUL, AND THERE ARE JEWS WHO ARE IN PART OF THIS ENCAMPMENT, AS WELL.

THERE WAS SHARED FOOD.

THERE WAS CLEARLY A SENSE OF BELONGING AND SHARED PURPOSE AND SHARED GRIEF IN THAT SPACE, AND THAT IS REALLY CRITICAL.

WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND CALL OUT WHERE THE LANGUAGE IS VIOLENT AND MAXIMALIST, SO THERE CAN BE A PROTEST MOVEMENT THAT IS ACTUALLY USING THE MORAL IMAGINATION THAT COLLEGE STUDENTS ARE SO GOOD AT MUSTERING, TO IMAGINE WHAT A DIFFERENT KIND OF FUTURE MIGHT BE POSSIBLE.

BUT THERE'S A KIND OF GASLIGHTING THAT'S HAPPENING, CHRISTIANE, RIGHT NOW, WHEN JEWISH STUDENTS, WHEN MANY JEWISH STUDENTS SAY THAT THEY DON'T FEEL SAFE ON CAMPUS, BECAUSE SOME OF THIS RHETORIC IS TRULY EGREGIOUS AND VIOLENT, PEOPLE ARE SAYING, NO, NO, IT'S ALL PEACEFUL, KIDS ARE BRAIDING EACH OTHER'S HAIR AND SHARING FOOD WITH EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S NOT HELPFUL, EITHER.

WHAT I SAW ON UCLA'S CAMPUS ON SUNDAY, WHICH I THINK IS A PRECURSOR TO WHAT WE SAW LAST NIGHT, WAS SOMETHING -- WAS ESSENTIALLY THE EQUIVALENT, BUT THIS TIME, WITH A CALLING IN OF EXTREMISTS FROM THE PRO-ISRAEL SIDE, WHO CAME ONTO CAMPUS, AND I SAW THEM AFTER THE FORMAL PROGRAM ENDED, WHEN ESSENTIALLY, THERE WAS A GROUP OF PALESTINIAN SOLIDARITY STUDENTS WHO WERE ALL STANDING TOGETHER AND THEN ISRAEL SOLIDARITY STUDENTS WHO -- NOT STUDENTS, ACTIVISTS WHO WERE OUTSIDE OF THEM, AND THERE WAS A -- AND WE ARE REALLY LUCKY THAT IT DID NOT TURN MORE VIOLENT THAN IT WAS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A KIND OF FUELING OF EXTREMISM HERE, AND LITERALLY, I WAS TRYING TO WEAVE IN BETWEEN THESE TWO CAMPS, SAYING TO PEOPLE, LOOK, WE NEED TO DE-ESCALATE, YOU NEED TO GO HOME, THIS IS NOT HELPING ANYBODY FOR YOU TO BE HERE, AND GOD FORBID SOMEBODY GETS TRULY HURT IN ONE OF THESE -- IN ONE OF THESE CONFLICTS.

>> SO, RABBI, I FIND THAT REALLY INTERESTING -- >> WE'RE REALLY AT THE POINT OF CRISIS.

>> BECAUSE YOU SAW FROM BOTH SIDES, AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY VERY INTERESTING, AND IT REALLY REQUIRES A VERY, AS YOU SAY, SENSIBLE, GROWN-UP, DE-ESCALATION, BY THE AUTHORITIES, AND AS WE KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED IN COLUMBIA, CALLING THE POLICE, THE FIRST UNIVERSITY TO CALL IN THE POLICING AND THAT CREATED A WILDFIRE EFFECT ACROSS THE NATION, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN TO REACT TO BROWN UNIVERSITY, IT APPEARS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE PRESIDENT OF BROWN, THE ADMINISTRATION OF BROWN, MANAGED TO DE-ESCALATE THROUGH TALKS AND MEETINGS AND LISTENING AND TALKING WITH THE ACTUAL STUDENTS, WHO ENDED UP REMOVING ON THEIR OWN THEIR ENCAMPMENT, WITH UNIVERSITY LEADERS SAYING THAT THEY WOULD DISCUSS AND THEY WOULD LATER VOTE ON THE ISSUES, WHETHER IT BE DIVESTING OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

IS THAT A MODEL?

IS THAT A MODEL THAT YOU WOULD SAY SHOULD BE TAKEN UP BY MORE OF THESE UNIVERSITIES?

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND WE HAVE TO CELEBRATE THAT THERE'S A WAY THAT THIS CAN BE DONE PEACEFULLY I KNOW THAT AT COLUMBIA, WHAT I UNDERSTAND OF LAST NIGHT, COLUMBIA ACTUALLY MADE A VERY SIMILAR OFFER TO WHAT THE BROWN ADMINISTRATION OFFERED, AND THAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS WERE MOVING FORWARD, UNTIL THIS GROUP OCCUPIED HAMILTON HALL AND THERE WAS VIOLENCE IN THE BUILDING, AND THAT MADE THEM CALL THE POLICE IN.

I WANT TO -- I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW THEY WERE IN THE MIDST OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS FIRST, BUT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A MODEL.

THERE HAVE TO BE GROWNUPS IN THE ROOM, AND CHRISTIANE, I WANT TO TELL YOU, ONE THING THAT I WITNESSED AT UCLA ON SUNDAY, AMIDST THESE PROTESTS AND COUNTER PROTESTS AND INCREASINGLY VIOLENT LANGUAGE, IT SEEMED LIKE PEOPLE WERE GUNNING FOR A FIGHT, THAT'S WHAT I SAW.

THERE WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THERE WHO IDENTIFY WITH STANDING TOGETHER, WHICH IS AN ORGANIZATION OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS THAT ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO BUILD A JUST AND FAIR FUTURE.

AND IN THIS CITY, LOS ANGELES, THERE HAPPENS TO BE A PALESTINIAN CITIZEN OF ISRAEL WHO IS MARRIED TO AN ISRAELI JEW, AND THEY TOGETHER LEAD THE CHAPTER IN L.A. AND I FOUND MY WAY OVER TO THIS GROUP AND TOGETHER, WE WERE WALKING THROUGH THE -- AROUND THE ENCAMPMENT, TRYING TO HELP DE-ESCALATE, AND ONE OF THE STUDENTS, ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO LEADS THIS GROUP, STARTED CHANTING, IN GAZA AND TEL AVIV, ALL CHILDREN DESERVE TO LIVE.

IN GAZA AND TEL AVIV, ALL CHILDREN DESERVE TO LIVE.

AND I SAW SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY BREATHTAKING HAPPEN, WHICH IS, WE'RE RIGHT IN BETWEEN THE PALESTINE SOLIDARITY CAMP ON ONE SIDE AND THE PRO-ISRAEL CAMP ON THE OTHER, AND PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES STARTED TO CLAP AND STARTED TO SAY THOSE WORDS, BECAUSE THOSE WORDS ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE.

AND WHEN YOU'RE FED A DIET OF EXTREMISM, YOU THINK THE ONLY ANSWER IS ELIMINATIONIST, FOR MY PEOPLE TO HAVE JUSTICE, YOUR PEOPLE MUST BE WIPED OUT.

BUT IT'S NOT TRUE.

WE HAVE BEEN FED FALSEHOOD, AND, IN FACT, THE ONLY -- THE ONLY RESPONSE TO THIS WILL BE WHEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS FIGURE OUT HOW TO BUILD A JUST AND SHARED FUTURE.

SO, THAT'S THE GROWNUP VOICE IN THE SPACE.

THAT'S THE DE-ESCALATION VOICE.

YOU'RE RIGHT TO WANT JUSTICE.

YOU'RE RIGHT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT SAFETY.

SO ARE WE, AND OUR SAFETY IS TIED UP IN ONE ANOTHER'S.

>> SO INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT IS SUCH A HUMAN REACTION, AND YET, WE ARE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE STUNNED THAT PEOPLE SAY ALL CHILDREN HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE, I MEAN, THIS IS WHERE SOCIETY HAS GONE, AND THIS IS WHERE THESE SEVEN MONTHS MAYBE HAVE LED US.

I WAS STRUCK BY WHAT YOU POSTED ON INSTAGRAM, WHERE YOU ACTUALLY SAID, YOU KNOW, IF I'M NOT MISQUOTING, YOU SAID PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE NOT THAT MOVEMENT.

MAYBE THERE ARE SOME, BUT IT'S NOT ALL PALESTINIANS, AND YOU WERE VERY, YOU KNOW, INSIST EBT IN YOUR SERMON TO YOUR CONGREGATION THAT THIS -- THESE PEOPLE, A PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT, AND AS YOU SAY, THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THESE WARS, THIS KIND OF DIVISION, WOULD PROBABLY CONTINUE UNTIL EVERYONE'S RIGHTS ARE LEGITIMIZED.

>> YEAH, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS.

IN FACT, A SURVEY CAME OUT IN SEPTEMBER, JUST BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, THAT SHOWED THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA DID NOT EVEN SUPPORT HAMAS.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE DEEPLY WOUNDED AND DEEPLY ANGUISHED, ALL OF US, AND SO, THE DANGER IS THAT WE SEE EACH OTHER IN THE MOST EXTREME AND -- AND SORT OF FLAT AND BINARY WAYS.

MOST PEOPLE, AS I SAID, JUST WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE, PUT THEIR CHILDREN TO BED AT NIGHT, THEY WANT TO HAVE THEIR DIGNITY REALIZED.

PALESTINIANS DESERVE AND NEED SELF-DETERMINATION.

IF ANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD OUGHT TO UNDERSTAND THAT, IT OUGHT TO BE THE JEWS, FOR WHOM SELF-DETERMINATION WAS DENIED FOR SO MUCH OF OUR HISTORY, AND WE UNDERSTAND THE VULNERABILITY THAT COMES WITH LIVING AS A MINORITY UNDER ANOTHER POWER.

THEY NEED AND DESERVE TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY.

AND THAT DIGNITY AND THAT SELF-DETERMINATION IS NOT GOING TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF ISRAELI JEWS HAVING THEIR FREEDOM AND HAVING THEIR SELF-DETERMINATION.

BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, AND I THINK THE WORK OF THE GROWNUPS IN THE ROOM RIGHT NOW IS TO PULL US BACK FROM THE EDGE OF THE ABYSS AND SAY, LISTEN TO THE VOICES THAT ARE COMING OUT OF ISRAEL AND PALESTINE RIGHT NOW, THAT ARE CALLING NOT FOR THE ANNIHILATION OF THE OTHER, BUT THAT ARE CALLING FOR US TO USE OUR MORAL IMAGINATION AND OUR CREATIVITY IN ORDER TO MANIFEST A DIFFERENT KIND OF FANTASY.

SOMETHING THAT MIGHT SEEM IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW.

A FANTASY OF PEACE.

WHERE OUR CHURN'S GENERATION IS ABLE TO GROW UP WITHOUT FEAR AND ACTUALLY SEE ONE ANOTHER AS NEIGHBORS.

>> AND AS A SORT OF TEACHER, AT LEAST A PREACHER YOURSELF, I WONDER IF YOU -- I WANT TO READ YOU SOMETHING THAT ONE OF THE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY HISTORY PROFESSORS WROTE IN "THE FINANCIAL TIMES" THIS PAST WEEKEND, TALKING ABOUT THE PREVIOUS WEEK'S DEMONSTRATIONS.

HE BASICALLY SAID, ARE NOT THESE STUDENTS FROM VARIED BACKGROUNDS WHO ARE SUPPORTING THE PALESTINIANS ONLY DOING WHAT WE HAVE TAUGHT THEM TO DO?

WE HAVE THOUGHT TAUGHT THEM ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND NEVER AGAIN?

AND CAN WE BE SURPRISED IF THE LESSON MANY OF THEM DRAW IS THAT EWE NEED TO BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR GENOCIDE AND TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED, AND NOT A BYSTANDER WHEN YOU BELIEVE YOU SEE IT HAPPENING?

SO, I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO DECLARE ON THE GENOCIDE WORD, I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE STUDENTS HAVE GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT THAT ANY KIND OF INJUSTICE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND THAT THEY NEED TO STAND UP AND PROTEST IT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND WE WORK TO CULTIVATE IN OUR CHILDREN A KIND OF RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THIS MOVEMENT, WHO BELIEVE THAT REALLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WORKING TOWARD A JUST END.

WORKING TO FIGHT AGAINST -- AGAINST UNNECESSARY DEATH IN THIS WAR.

IT'S SO CRITICAL THAT THEY ALSO USE THEIR VOICES TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH ONLY UNDERMINES THE CAUSE AND UNDERMINES THE MOVEMENT.

AND I DO WANT TO POINT OUT THAT I'VE SEEN A FEW PEOPLE IN THE LAST FEW DAYS WHO HAVE REALLY DONE THIS.

I SAW ONE PALESTINIAN MUSLIM THOLOGIAN IN MICHIGAN WHO STOOD UP AT A PROTEST AND SAID, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANTI-SEMITISM IN THIS MOVEMENT.

I, AS IN MY OWN JEWISH COMMUNITY, IS SAYING, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THE KIND OF ANTI-PALESTINIAN SENTIMENT AND ANTI-ARABISM THAT I SAW ON UCLA'S CAMPUS ON SUNDAY.

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THAT KIND OF VIOLENT LANGUAGE IN OUR MOVEMENTS.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS USE OUR MORAL IMAGINATION AND CREATE A LANGUAGE AND A RHETORIC THAT WILL HELP LEAD US, NOT TOWARD MORE VIOLENCE, BUT ULTIMATELY TOWARD PEACE.

>> SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION, FINALLY, AGAIN, AS YOU MENTIONED, WE DID SPEAK MUCH EARLIER ON, WHO KNEW THAT IT WAS GOING TO STILL BE GOING ON INTO ITS SEVENTH MONTH NOW, YOU KNOW, 1,200 ISRAELIS DEAD, STILL HOSTAGES INSIDE GAZA, HAVE NOT BEEN BROUGHT HOME, A DEAL SEEMS TO BE STUCK, YOU KNOW, AN OFFENSIVE AGAINST RAFAH APPEARS TO BE COMING, ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GIVES YOU HOPE, THESE SEVEN MONTHS AFTER?

DID YOU THINK WE'D STILL BE HERE?

>> I DID NOT THINK WE WOULD BE HERE, I PRAYED THAT WE WOULD NOT BE HERE.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATING.

THE THING THAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THE PEOPLE WHO WALK IN BETWEEN THE CAMPS AND SAY, FRIENDS, WE ARE NOT ENEMIES, WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS, WE ARE ALL IN ANGUISH, WE NEED TO SEE EACH OTHER'S HUMANITY, WE NEED TO TURN TOWARD ONE ANOTHER WITH COMPASSION, WITH CURIOSITY, AND WITH CARE.

AND THAT GROUP IS A VERY DISTINCT AND SMALL MINORITY RIGHT NOW, BUT IT EXISTS.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE HOPE IS FOR ME.

BECAUSE WE HAVE TO PULL AWAY FROM THESE VERY RIGID EXTREMES.

THEY WILL LEAD US ONLY TOWARD MORE HEARTACHE AND MORE ANGUISH.

I PRAY TO GOD, THIS WAR NEEDS TO END.

THE HOSTAGES NEED TO BE RETURNED.

THE STAGGERING DEATH TOLL IN GAZA NEEDS TO BE GRIEVED PUBLICLY, THEY NEED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF HUMANITARIAN AID IMMEDIATELY.

AND THE PARTIES NEED TO BE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE, WITH LEADERS WHO CAN ACTUALLY CONCEIVE OF A DIFFERENT KIND OF FUTURE, NOT A FUTURE OF ETERNAL WAR.

BUT A FUTURE IN WHICH WE HAVE ABLE TO SEE AND HONOR EACH OTHER'S HUMANITY.

>> RABBI SHARON BROUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THERE APPEARS NO CONSENSUS ON A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE, OR NORMALIZATION OF ISRAELI/SAW DI TIES, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO IRAN, ALL PARTIES DO SEEM TO AGREE THAT IT IS THE REGIONAL THREAT.

THE TEMPERATURE HAS DROPPED SINCE LAST MONTH'S TIT FOR TAT AIR STRIKES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

AFTER IRAN FIRED HUNDREDS OF MISSILES AND DRONES IN RETALIATION FOR THE APPARENT ISRAELI AIR STRIKES ON IRAN'S CONSULATE IN DAMASCUS THAT KILLED TOP IRANIAN OFFICIALS.

WE'RE NOW BEING SHOWN THE SAME TYPE OF WEAPONS USED IN IRAN'S ATTACK.

SOMETHING ITS MILITARY CLEARLY WANTS THE WORLD TO SEE.

AND FRED POLITE AGAIN REPORTS FROM IRAN.

>> Reporter: WHEN IRAN ATTACKED ISRAEL IN MID APRIL, THEY FIRED HUNDREDS OF BALLISTIC MISSILES, CRUISE MISSILES, AND DRONES.

DEVELOPED BY THE ELITE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORP AEROSPACE FORCES.

SO, THESE TWO WERE USED IN THE ISRAEL OPERATION?

NOW, THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD SHOWED US THE TYPES OF WEAPONS THEY USED TO STRIKE ISRAEL, INCLUDING TWO BALLISTIC MISSILES.

WITH A RANGE OF MORE THAN 1,000 MILES, ABLE TO CARRY ABOUT A HALF TON WARHEAD.

HOW ACCURATE ARE THESE?

>> ACCURATE?

>> Reporter: UH-HUH.

>> LESS THAN FIVE METERS.

>> Reporter: LESS THAN FIVE METERS, YOU CAN HIT THE TARGET?

THIS GENERAL WAS HIMSELF ONCE A MISSILE COMMANDER IN THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.

HE SAYS IRANIAN MISSILES MANAGED TO HIT TWO TARGETS IN ISRAEL, INCLUDING AN AIR BASE IN RETALIATION FOR THE BOMBING OF IRAN'S EMBASSY COMPOUND IN SYRIA.

WHILE THE U.S. AND ISRAEL CLAIMED TO HAVE SHOT DOWN NEARLY ALL OF IRAN'S MISSILES AND DRONES, THE GENERAL SAYS TEHRAN SHOWED THE POWER OF ITS AEROSPACE FORCES.

"TODAY, OUR DRONES AND MISSILES HAVE BECOME AN IMPORTANT FACTOR OF STRENGTH AND THE EXECUTION OF POWER IN THE WORLD," HE SAYS.

HE ALSO SHOWED US THIS CRUISE MISSILE, A TYPE ALSO USED IN THE STRIKES, AND ARGUABLY CURRENTLY THE MOST INFAMOUS DRONE IN THE WORLD.

CAN YOU SHOW ME THE WARHEAD?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THE WARHEAD BEFORE.

>> PENETRATION.

>> Reporter: YEAH.

>> AND THEN IT GOES IN THE SIDE -- >> Reporter: INTO THE MISSILE AND THEN IT EXPLODES.

OKAY.

WHILE THE IRANIANS ACKNOWLEDGE USING THESE DRONES AGAINST ISRAEL, THE U.S. AND UKRAINE ACCUSE TEHRAN OF GIVING HUNDREDS OF THESE DRONES TO RUSSIA.

MOSCOW USING THEM TO ATTACK UKRAINIAN CITIES AND ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

THE IRANIANS CONTINUE TO DENY THOSE ACCUSATIONS.

THE GENERAL TELLS ME THE DRONES ATTACK IN SWARMS, OFTEN FIRED OFF SECRETLY FROM UNMARKED TRUCKS LIKE THIS ONE.

"EVERYTHING IS PREPROGRAMMED," HE SAYS.

"THE FLIGHT ROUTE IS CHOSEN ACCORDING TO THE ENEMY'S CAPABILITIES AND BLIND SPOTS OF RADARS, AND ALL THE ELEMENTS THAT CAN HELP US REACH THE TARGET."

WHILE TENSIONS BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL HAVE SOMEWHAT EASED AFTER THEY TRADED DIRECT MILITARY BLOWS FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE GENERAL WARNS IRAN HAS EVEN MORE MODERN WEAPONS AT ITS DISPOSAL.

"THE ONLY PATH FOR THEM IS TO HAVE LOGICAL AND WISE NEGOTIATIONS WITH US" HE SAYS.

"WE DON'T DEPEND ON MONEY.

WE'VE HAD GOOD PROGRESS IN THIS FIELD, AND WE WILL PROGRESS MORE.

THERE ARE ACHIEVEMENTS THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN TALKED ABOUT."

>> THAT WAS FRED POLITE JEN IN TEHRAN.

WHAT ABOUT THE INTERNAL OPPRESSION ON ITS OWN PEOPLE, AND WHERE DOES THIS MULTILAYERED CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE EAST LEAD?

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT AMERICAN POLICY IN THE REGION IN HERE TO ANSWER IS ALL THESE QUESTIONS, SANAM VAKIL.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO, HAVE YOU SEEN THAT KIND OF SHOW AND TELL BEFORE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE, YOU KNOW, THE AIM OF THE IRANIANS IS TO PUT THAT OUT IN PUBLIC?

>> WELL, THE IRANIANS ARE TRYING TO SHOW THE RANGE OF THEIR MILITARY KIT THAT THEY HAVE DEVELOPED INDIGENOUSLY, OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS.

THEY HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING THEIR CAPABILITIES, AND WE'VE SEEN MORE RECENTLY THAT THEY'VE BECOME AN EXPORTER OF -- OF DRONES, IN PARTICULAR TO RUSSIA, BUT ALSO USING THEIR MISSILES, SO, THIS IS ABOUT PROJECTING THEIR POWER, USING SOFT POWER, AS WELL, TO SHOWCASE THAT THEY ARE A MILITARY FORCE IN THE REGION, AND THIS IS DESPITE SANCTIONS AND CONTAINMENT AND INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS AT RESTRAINING IRAN.

>> DO YOU THINK THE FEAR OF THE SO-CALLED WIDER WAR IS PRETTY MUCH ABATED, EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A FIRST EVER DIRECT, YOU KNOW, TIT FOR TAT BETWEEN THE TWO?

>> WELL, IT WAS A DIFFICULT FEW WEEKS.

I DON'T PERSONALLY THINK IT'S OVER.

I THINK WE ARE IN A LULL, AND I THINK THAT IT COULD KICK UP AT ANY TIME.

MUCH OF IT IS VERY MUCH CONNECTED TO OBTAINING A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, AND UNDERSTANDING FROM THE ISRAELIS THEMSELVES ON HOW THEY'RE GOING TO ANSWER THEIR SECURITY DILEMMA.

THEY HAVE THE WAR IN GAZA THAT IS ONGOING, THEY HAVE GOALS DIRECTED TO ERADICATING HAMAS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY HAVE HEZBOLLAH ON THEIR NORTHERN BORDER, THEY HAVE MILITIAS IN SYRIA AND IRAQ.

AND THAT DILEMMA CONTINUES TO LOOM LARGE OVER THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP, AND SO, THEY NOT ONLY HAVE TO END THE WAR IN GAZA, BUT ALSO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE SECURITY TO THEIR PEOPLE, AND THERE'S BEEN A DISPLACEMENT OF ISRAELIS FROM THE NORTHERN BORDER FOR MANY MONTHS NOW.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ISRAELI ISSUE, IT'S THE AMERICAN ISSUE YOU IT'S THE SAUDI ISSUE, THE EGYPTIANS, JORDANIANS.

THE ONE THING THEY ALL AGREE ON IS THAT IRAN IS THE BIGGEST THREAT.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THINGS, CLEARLY WHAT SECRETARY BLINKEN'S TRIPS THROUGHOUT THE REGION ARE MEANT TO PROMOTE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE U.S.

WANTS VERY MUCH, SOMETHING THAT THE ISRAELIS WANT VERY MUCH, THE NORMALIZATION BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL.

AND YOU WROTE BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, WELL BEFORE THE HAMAS ATTACK, THAT THE BEST WAY TO TEMPER THE RISKS FROM IRAN WAS TO SEEK REPRESSUREMENT, NOT RETRIBUTION.

WHERE DOES THAT STAND NOW?

I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT IT'S KIND OF FANTASY TO THINK IT WILL BE ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE THE END OF THE WAR, AND THE COMMITMENT TO A PALESTINIAN STATE IN THE FUTURE.

>> WELL, I THINK NORMALIZATION IS STILL BEING VERY MUCH PROMOTED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND THIS IS PART OF THIS BROADER STRATEGY OF MANAGING AND CONTAINING IRAN'S REGIONAL INFLUENCE THROUGH THE INTEGRATION OF ISRAEL INTO THE REGION.

AND THIS HAS BEEN THE THINKING OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FROM BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

THE REALITY IS THAT THAT'S VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE WITHOUT ENGAGEMENT FROM THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP AND THEY'RE NOT ENGAGING ON THIS.

THIS IS THE TRUTH BEHIND ALL OF THE -- >> WHAT ARE THEY NOT ENGAGING IN?

>> ON THE IDEA OF NORMALIZATION.

THEY ARE FOCUSED ON GAZA AND THEIR OWN SECURITY, AND SAUDI ARABIA CONTINUES TO TRY AND PUSH FOR NORMALIZATION WITH THE ISRAELIS, BUT THE CONDITIONALITY OF THIS VISION IS THAT -- SOMETHING HAS TO BE PROVIDED FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

>> RIGHT.

SO, ARE THE ISRAELIS NOT ENGAGING ON, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF SOMETHING FOR THE PALESTINIANS, OR THEY'RE NOT ENGAGING IN THE WHOLE IDEA OF NORMALIZATION?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO PICK UP ON NORMALIZATION AFTER THEY'VE ADDRESSED THEIR SECURITY ISSUES THAT I'VE ALREADY SORT OF LAID OUT.

THE SAUDIS NEED NORMALIZATION SOONER THAN LATER, AND OF COURSE THE WAR ONGOING IN SEVEN MONTHS WITH THE DEVASTATION AND THE HUMANITARIAN DISASTER STILL UNDER WAY POSES A HUGE OBSTACLE FOR THEM TO ENGAGE WITH ISRAEL, AND ALSO, SAUDI ARABIA HAS ITS OWN OBJECTIVES HERE, THEY'RE SEEKING STRONGER DEFENSE TIES WITH WASHINGTON, ONES THAT CAN BE BILATERAL AND CONSISTENT.

THEY'RE SEEKING U.S. SUPPORT FOR A CIVILIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

SO, THERE ARE MULTIPLE ARRANGEMENTS ON THE TABLE.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE U.S. ROLE RIGHT NOW?

YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE BIG META THINGS, BUT THE REAL ISSUE, BEFORE ALL OTHERS, ACCORDING TO EVERYBODY WHO IS SERIOUS, IS FIXING THE ONGOING CONFLICT AND THE ONGOING WARS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS -- HAMAS, BUT IT'S, YOU KNOW, PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS WHO PAY THE PRICE.

IS THERE, DO YOU THINK, ANY SERIOUS ROUTE TOWARDS SOLVING THAT PROBLEM?

BECAUSE IT SEEMS NONE OF THESE OTHERS WILL BE SOLVED.

>> I DON'T SEE THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION HAVING THE SAME INFLUENCE AS THEY HAVE, PERHAPS, IN THE PAST.

THIS IS PERHAPS THEIR LIMITATION IN THE CONTEXT OF GEOPOLITICS, THE WAR IN UKRAINE ONGOING, TENSIONS WITH CHINA, THERE'S A LOT ON THE AGENDA, AND THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE CONFLICTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST WERE NOT ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S TO-DO LIST BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

THAT'S THE REALITY.

>> YOU MEAN THEY'VE KIND OF TAKEN -- THEY SHIFTED FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, TOWARDS ASIA, BASICALLY, AND OBVIOUSLY, THEY HAD UKRAINE.

>> YES.

I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE U.S. SECURITY STRATEGY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SORT OF OBJECTIVES WERE TO PARK THE MIDDLE EAST OR CONTAIN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND THEY WERE QUITE PLEASED TO SEE CONFLICTS ABATING, AND THAT NORMALIZATION WAS SUCCEEDING FROM THEIR ANGLE, SO, THEY WERE TAKEN ABACK AND VERY SURPRISED BY THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th AND THIS WAR, BUT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO USE THEIR INFLUENCE ENOUGH TO DELIVER THE CEASE-FIRE, THE HOSTAGE RELEASE, AND THEN THE BROADER AGENDA OF ADDRESSING PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION AND BEYOND THAT.

REGIONAL STABILITY.

>> INSIDE IRAN, THERE IS, YOU KNOW, THIS SHOW AND TELL OF THE MILITARY CENTER THERE, BUT THEN THERE'S ALSO THE DEATH SENTENCE AGAINST A RAPPER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT AT THIS TIME AND DO YOU THINK IT WILL GO THROUGH?

OR DO YOU THINK THERE'S -- THEY'RE POSTURING RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE IN A POSITION OF STRENGTH.

THEY'VE COME OUT OF THE PROTESTS OF '22-23 OVER THE DEATHS, AND AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE PROJECTING AND TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR INFLUENCE ACROSS THE REGION, THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE GROUPS KNOWN AS THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO BE RESILIENT INSIDE AND CRACK DOWN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

AND THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING FOR MANY MONTHS, AND HE'S BECOMING A CAUSE CELEBRE, IF YOU WILL.

IT'S CERTAINLY MOBILIZED PEOPLE, AND THEY MIGHT MAKE A CASE OUT OF HIM.

MAKE HIM A MARTYR, BUT REALLY SHOW THAT THEY MEAN BUSINESS.

>> IS THERE ANY WAY TO TRY TO AVOID THAT?

IS THERE ANYTHING, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN DO, TO HAVE ANY LEVERAGE, ANYTHING?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY THINK THAT POLICY MAKERS FROM ALL COUNTRIES NEED TO PRESSURE THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC ON HUMAN RIGHTS, AND PROTECTING THEIR CITIZENS, AND DO SO CONSISTENTLY.

THERE HASN'T BEEN STRONG ENOUGH VOICES OF CONDEMNATION COORDINATED ACROSS THE GLOBE TO PROTECT THE LIFE AND LIVELIHOODS OF IRANIANS.

AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED THAT AFTER THE PROTESTS CAME TO AN END IN 2023, REALLY BECAUSE OF COERCIVE FORCE AND REPRESSION, THAT THE VOICES BECAME SILENT ON SUCH A CRITICAL ISSUE, AND THAT OF COURSE LEFT IRANIANS FEELING ABANDONED.

>> YOU MEAN THE VOICES OF GOVERNMENTS WHO HAD STOOD WITH THESE WOMEN -- >> YES.

>> JUST SHUT UP.

>> YES.

EFFECTIVELY.

>> AND NOW THERE'S MORE -- THE U.N. SAYS IT'S OBSERVING AN INTENSIFYING CRACKDOWN ON HIJAB WEARING.

WE WERE TOLD, WELL, THE GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED TO TURN A BLIND EYE, LOTS OF REPORTS OF WOMEN, YOU KNOW, GOING HERE, THERE, AND EVERYWHERE WITHOUT THE HIJAB ON, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE REUPPING THAT REPRESSION.

>> YES, THEY ARE REASSERTING CONTROL, AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT THEY TIMED THAT MANEUVER, THAT MOVE, AGAINST WOMEN IN IRAN, AND SPECIFICALLY IN TEHRAN, AS I'VE HEARD, AT THE SAME TIME AS THEY RESPONDED TO ISRAEL ON APRIL 13th.

SO, IT WAS TELEGRAPHED, AND IT WAS QUITE COORDINATED, AND I THINK THIS IS ABOUT PROJECTING STRENGTH, AND THEY'VE ALSO BEEN TRYING TO SILENCE DISSENT, SILENCE CRITICISM OF GOVERNMENT POLICY.

SO, THIS IS A REGIME TRYING TO SHOW THAT IT IS RESILIENT, DESPITE PRESSURE, DESPITE SANCTIONS, DESPITE REALLY A GRAVE ECONOMIC SITUATION.

AND IT'S UNCLEAR HOW THINGS ARE GOING TO EVOLVE, BUT IT'S THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WHO ARE ALWAYS PAYING THE PRICE.

>> ALWAYS PAYING THE PRICE.

YOU SAID THAT MASSA AIMEE KNEE WAS KILLED IN CUSTODY, I'M USING THAT WORD, AND OTHERS WERE KILLED DURING THE REPRESSIVE CRACKDOWN.

THERE WAS A FAMOUS YOUNG TEENAGER, NIKA, WHO DIED -- >> YES.

>> FOUND DEAD.

>> THE REGIME SAYS SHE COMMITTED SUICIDE.

THE BBC HAS CONDUCTED A VERY THOROUGH INVESTIGATION.

I'M GOING TO READ IT SO I GET IT STRAIGHT.

A LEAKED SECRET DOCUMENT SAYING THAT IRAN SECURITY FORCES MOLESTED SEXUALLY AND KILLED NIKA IN 2022.

THAT -- BY THREE MEN WORKING FOR THE IRANIAN SECURITY FORCES.

ONLY COMING TO LIGHT BECAUSE OF THE BBC -- YES, AND?

DOES IT HAVE AN EFFECT WHEN THESE THINGS COME OUT PUBLICLY?

IS THERE ANY WAY TO PREVENT THIS KIND OF THING?

>> I MEAN, AGAIN, THERE NEEDS TO BE COORDINATED PRESSURE.

IN THE PAST, THE ISLAMIC REPUBLICAN HAS RESPONDED TO SUCH PRESSURE, CRITICISM OVER DEATH SENTENCES AGAINST MINORS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS SOMETHING THAT THEY ADJUSTED THEIR POLICY TOWARDS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK, IN THE CLIMATE OF INCREASED WESTERN CRITICISM, AGAINST THE ISLAMIC REPUBLICAN, IT HAS A REBOUND EFFECT INSIDE, WHICH LEADS TO FURTHER PRESSURE AGAINST ORDINARY CITIZENS, AND THAT'S WHAT'S DEVASTATING, BUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND MEN, IT HAS BEEN USED AND NOTED AND DOCUMENTED FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

IF NOT IN OTHER STATES.

>> PEOPLE ARE WRITING MORE AND MORE ON IRAN, AND CERTAIN ACADEMICS AND POLICY EXPERTS HAVE BASICALLY SAID, IN VIEW OF WHAT YOU'VE SAID ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, ESSENTIALLY, THE WEST HAS NEVER REALLY KONS TRAITED ON HUMAN RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO TRYING TO CENSURE IRAN.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN SECURITY.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN NUCLEAR, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN TERRORISM.

AND NEVER ABOUT THE WELL BEING OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE.

IS THAT A FAIR COMMENT?

AND COULD THAT CHANGE AND ARE THERE EXAMPLES OF WHEN A POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WEST STOOD UP FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, IT ACTUALLY BROKE THROUGH?

>> I WOULD BROADEN IT BEYOND IRAN.

I THINK WESTERN GOVERNMENTS DON'T HAVE AN EFFECTIVE AND CONSISTENT POLICY TO PROTECT HUMAN RIGHTS OR DEFEND HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN RIGHTS ACROSS THE BOARD, ESPECIALLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WHERE INTEREST, NATIONAL INTEREST, COLLIDE WITH PRINCIPLES AND VALUES, AND SO, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FLIP-FLOPPING WITH REGARDS TO SAUDI ARABIA, WITH REGARDS TO EGYPT, AND IRAN IS YET ANOTHER CASE.

I THINK THERE COULD BE A COORDINATED INTERNATIONAL EFFORT, BUT IT'S VERY HARD TO GET THIS RIGHT, BUT AGAIN, IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT LOSE ON THIS, AND IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT FEEL LET DOWN ON THIS.

AND, AGAIN, LOOKING AT THE CASE OF GAZA, PALESTINIANS FEEL VERY LET DOWN THAT THEIR RIGHTS ALSO HAVEN'T BEEN PROTECTED.

>> WHICH IS WHY SO MANY, YOU KNOW, SO ENTHUSED ABOUT THE SOLIDARITY THAT'S BEING SHOWN ACROSS THE WORLD RIGHT NOW BY STUDENTS.

SANAM VAKIL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> AND AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE CRISIS ACROSS AMERICA'S CAMPUSES IS MAKING SOME WRESTLE WITH THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, AS WRITTEN BY THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE.

IT IS A DEFINITION THAT'S BEEN ADOPTED BY COUNTRIES ACROSS THE GLOBE.

NEXT, MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO THE AUTHOR, KENNETH STERN, WHO LED THE DRAFTING OF THAT DOCUMENT, AND NOW WARNS IT IS BEING USED TO CHILL FREE SPEECH.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

KENNETH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT YOU HAVE A DISTINGUISHED CAREER AS A TRIAL LAWYER, AS AN AUTHOR, AS A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, BUT WHAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW ABOUT YOU IS THAT YOU WERE THE LEAD DRAFTER OF THE LEADING DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

WHY YOU DRAFTED THIS, WHAT'S THE ORIGIN STORY OF THIS?

>> AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE PEACE PROCESS IN 2000, THERE WAS AN UPTICK IN ATTACKS ON JEWS, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, IN THE UNITED STATES, TOO, BUT MOSTLY IN EUROPE, AND THERE WAS A GROUP CALLED THE EUROPEAN MONITORING CENTER THAT WAS TASKED WITH DOING REPORTS ABOUT RACISM, XENOPHOBIA AND ANTI-SEMITISM, AND IT PUT OUT A REPORT AT THE END OF 2004 THAT FOUND, IN FACT, THAT SOME OF THE ATTACKS WERE BY NOT ONLY THE TRADITIONAL SUSPECTS, WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND OTHERS, BUT ALSO BY YOUNG ARAB AND MUSLIM FOLKS, IN SOME OUTSKIRTS OF PARIS AND OTHER PLACES LIKE THAT.

SO, THE DATA WAS RIGHT, BUT THEY SAID, WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN THAT WE HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE COLLECTING INFORMATION, AND NO COMMON SCORESHEET, NO COMMON DEFINITION OF WHAT TO LOOK AT.

AND THEN THEY ALSO SAID, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A TEMPORARY DEFINITION THAT'S GOING TO LOOK AT ISSUES OF ANTI-SEMITISM BASED ON STEREOTYPES ABOUT JEWS, AND THEY WENT THROUGH THAT EXERCISE AND SAID, WHAT DO WE DO IF A JEW IS ATTACKED ON THE STREETS OF A EUROPEAN CITY AS A STAND-IN FOR AN ISRAELI?

AND SOMEBODY HAD THE STEREOTYPES AND APPLIED THEM TO ISRAELIS AND REAPPLIED THEM TO JEWS, THAT WAS ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT NOT IF THEY WERE UPSET WITH ISRAELI POLICY.

THEY SAID, THAT'S LAMENTABLE, BUT SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED.

AND THAT STRUCK ME AS NUTS, BASICALLY, BECAUSE I GREW UP AT THE TIME OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AND I CAN'T IMAGINE SOMEBODY SAYING, WELL, LYNCHING SOME BLACK PERSON IS RACIST IF THEY HAVE THE STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE, BUT NOT IF THEY WERE UPSET BY A POLITICAL EVENT.

MARTIN LUTHER KING SPEECH.

SO, IT JUST SO HAPPENED THAT THE DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPEAN MONITORING CENTER WAS INVITED BY A COLLEAGUE TO COME TO THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE WHERE I WORKED FOR ITS ANNUAL MEETING TO TALK BROADLY WITH OTHERS ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN EUROPE, AND AS WE SAW THEN, AS WE SEE NOW, THERE'S SOME DISCOURSE ABOUT ISRAEL THAT'S CORRELATED WITH ATTACKS ON JEWS, NOT NECESSARILY CAUSATION, BUT WE THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO TAKE THE TEMPERATURE.

THERE WERE OTHER REASONS FOR THE DEFINITION, TOO, BUT THAT'S HOW IT STARTED AND THAT'S WHY THERE ARE EXAMPLES INSIDE THE DEFINITION.

>> I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE OP-ED YOU WROTE A FEW WEEKS AGO.

YOU SAY THAT THE TERM IS NOW BEING USED -- IT'S NOW BEING WEAPONIZED, ACTUALLY, TO MUZZLE FREE SPEECH ON CAMPUS.

COULD YOU JUST EXPLAIN HOW THE TERM, OR THE FRAMEWORK THAT YOU WROTE, IS NOW BEING WEAPONIZED, AND WHY YOU FIND THAT DANGEROUS?

>> WELL, THE -- THE LANGUAGE OF THE DEFINITION WAS BEING STARTED TO BE USED IN TITLE 6 CASES AFTER 2010, AND IT WAS LOOKING AT ISSUES OF WHAT A PROFESSOR WAS TEACHING, WHAT SPEAKERS WERE COMING INTO CAMPUS, WHAT TEXTS WERE BEING ASSIGNED, THINGS THAT CLEARLY ARE THE HEART OF ACADEMIC FREEDOM, AND MY CONCERN IS THAT THE PUSHING OF THIS, ESPECIALLY IN TITLE SIX CASES, I'M NOT PARTICULARLY WORRIED ABOUT THE CASES THEMSELVES, THOUGH, I AM WORRIED ABOUT HOW SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE LITIGATED, THE PRESSURE IS ON ADMINISTRATORS, WHEN THEY KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE POISED TO SUE, WHEN CERTAIN SPEECH IS HAPPENING ON A CAMPUS THAT MAY TRIGGER SOMETHING TO FILE A TITLE SIX CASE.

THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO TRY TO SUPPRESS THAT SPEECH OR COUNTER THAT SPEECH, BECAUSE PART OF WHAT THEY DO, IN THEIR DAY JOB, IS TO PROTECT THE UNIVERSITY FROM BEING SUED.

SO, I SEE IT AS NOT JUST A LEGAL QUESTION, I SEE IT AS INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO CREATE A CHILLING EFFECT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

YOU DON'T USE INSTRUMENTS OF LAW TO SUPPRESS SPEECH.

AND IT'S ALSO BECOMING A SYMBOL, IN A WAY THAT'S REALLY TROUBLING TO ME, TOO, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BEING CONCERNED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH IS THE WORK I'VE BEEN DOING FOR DECADES.

ONCE WE TRY TO REDUCE THINGS INTO, IS THIS ANTI-SEMITISM OR NOT, WE'RE LOSING FOCUS ON SO MANY THINGS ABOUT HOW ANTI-SEMITISM WORKS IN THE REAL WORLD.

WE'D ALL CONSIDER THE TREE OF LIFE SHOOTING, CLEARLY ANTI-SEMITIC, BUT THE SHOOTER AT THE WALMART IN EL PASO A FEW MONTHS LATER HAD THE SAME IDEOLOGY, WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE FEVERED PITCH ASH IMMIGRANTS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY, WE LOOK AT ONE AS ANTI-SEMITISM, WE DON'T LOOK AT THE OTHER AS ANTI-SEMITISM.

WHEN I TALK TO SYNAGOGUES, AND I SAY, JUST CONCERNED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM, WHAT CONCERNS ME MOST IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT JEWS, IT'S WHAT POLITICIANS AND OTHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT ANYONE AMONG US AS A DANGER.

THE -- WHETHER IT'S IMMIGRANTS OR MUSLIMS OR OTHERS, BECAUSE ONCE YOU PRIME THAT PUMP, THAT INEVITABLY LEADS TO PEOPLE GETTING INTO THESE BUCKETS OF THINKING THAT ARE SORT OF CONVEYOR BELTS TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

ON TOP OF THAT, I WORK WITH THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE FOR 25 YEARS.

I GUARDED THE TERM ANTI-SEMITISM.

TO HAVE A STING, IT HAS TO BE USED IN ONLY THE CLEAREST CASES.

I WOULD DEFAULT -- NOW, THERE'S A PUSH TO MAKE IT ALMOST UBIQUITOUS, AND WHEN EVERYTHING BECOMES ANTI-SEMITIC, NOTHING IS ANTI-SEMITIC, AND IT MAKES IT HARDER TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

>> LOOK, IF EVERYTHING IS ANTI-SEMITISM, THAN NOTHING IS ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, DOES THE FRAMEWORK STILL HAVE UTILITY?

LIKE, IS THERE -- IS THERE STILL A NEED FOR THIS?

OR IS THAT -- OR HAS IT GONE SO FAR IN ITS MISUSE THAT IT NO LONGER HAS UTILITY?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE VARIOUS DEFINITIONS.

SOME OF THEM ARE BETTER, SOME OF THEM ARE MORE LIKELY TO STOP PRO-PALESTINIAN SPEECH, AT LEAST ABUSED, WHICH IS HOW I SEE THE, YOU KNOW, THE DEFINITION BEING ENGAGED, BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE ALSO AT CORE THE BASIC IDEA THAT ANTI-SEMITISM IS CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT JEWS HARMING HUMANITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, GIVING AN EXPLANATION FOR WHAT GOES WRONG IN THE WORLD.

BUT AGAIN, I DON'T WANT, YOU KNOW, THE SHORT CUTS TO BE USED TO LOOK AT SPEECH, AND THE -- I LOOK AT IT, IMAGINE IF ONE PUT TOGETHER A DEFINITION OF RACISM.

THAT WOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SOME POLITICAL THINGS THAT MAY AFFECT RACISM.

NOT TO SAY IF YOU SAY THESE THINGS THEY ARE INHERENTLY RACIST, BUT THEY MAY BE THINGS TO CONSIDER.

OPPOSITION TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, OPPOSITION OF BLACK LIVES MATTER, THAT MIGHT BE THE TEMPERATURE OF RACISM TO PUT INTO SURVEYS AND SO FORTH.

WOULD YOU WANT TO THEN HAVE A HATE SPEECH CODE IN EFFECT, LET ALONE ENDORSED BY CONGRESS, THAT SAYS ONE HAS THIS PARTICULAR VIEW ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES, THEY ARE THEREFORE EXPRESSING RACISM?

I DON'T THINK SO.

AND YOU'D SEE THE DAMAGE THAT THAT WOULD DO TO THE ABILITY TO EVEN LOOK AT THESE THINGS ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, AND THOSE ARE THE SAME CONCERNS I HAVE ABOUT THE USE OF THESE DEFINITIONS.

IN THIS CONTEXT.

>> THIS IS KIND OF EXACTLY THE ISSUE THAT WE SEE AT PLAY NOW, AS THESE DEMONSTRATIONS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES HAVE, YOU KNOW, SPREAD REALLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I JUST -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS SORT OF THE ARGUMENT THAT WE ARE BEING TOLD, THIS IS BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN FREE SPEECH AND STUDENT SAFETY.

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?

>> ADMITTEDLY, A COMPLICATED ISSUE, BUT I SEE THE, YOU KNOW, STUDENTS SHOULD BE SAFE FROM HARASSMENT, FROM INTIMIDATION, FROM BULLYING, FROM DISCRIMINATION, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY FIT INTO ONE OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE CLASSIFICATIONS LEGALLY.

ANY STUDENT SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM THOSE THINGS.

BUT STUDENTS SHOULD BE PREPARED, AND THE UNIVERSITIES SHOULD STRESS, THAT STUDENTS ARE GOING TO HEAR THINGS THEY FIND DISTURBING.

I HEAR A LOT OF THE CHANTS AND THINGS DISTURBING, BUT IF THEY'RE NOT BEING MADE AS PART OF A THREAT, JUST A QUESTION OF EXPRESSION, THAT HAS TO BE PROTECTED.

PART OF THE BACKGROUND TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW WAS THE PUSH TO OUTLAW STUDENTS FOR JUSTICE IN PALESTINE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, I DISAGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, BUT I DON'T WANT THEM BANNED.

DeSANTIS DID THAT IN FLORIDA, NOT BASED ON ANYTHING THEY DID, JUST IN TERMS ON WHAT THEY WERE SAYING.

AND SO, THAT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY I YOU THIS WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THE UPTICK NOW, AND THE RESPONSE IS, THERE'S BEEN A LACK OF CLARITY.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THINGS THAT WE FIND, YOU KNOW, OFFENSIVE, WE'RE GOING TO USE THE ASSETS OF THE INSTITUTION TO TEACH ABOUT IT, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SUSPEND YOU OR DISCIPLINE YOU FOR THINGS THAT YOU SAY.

>> WHAT IS THE LINE?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, SOME SPEECH IS ALREADY CRIMINAL CONDUCT.

IF A PERSON THREATENS TO KILL YOU, RIGHT, YOU CAN -- MAKES A CREDIBLE THREAT TO KILL SOMEBODY, YOU CAN BE ARRESTED FOR THAT.

THAT'S ALREADY A CRIME.

SO, WHERE DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE KIND OF GONE OFF THE RAILS?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IF SOMEBODY MAKES A SPECIFIC THREAT TO A PERSON, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU, AND IT'S A DIRECT, IMMEDIATE THREAT, THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A PROBLEM.

THERE WAS A CASE A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO IN CALIFORNIA, SOMEBODY FOUND THE NAMES OF EVERYBODY THAT SOUNDED LIKE AN ASIAN STUDENT, ASIAN AMERICAN STUDENT AND PUT OUT AN EMAIL TO ALL OF THEM SAYING, I'M GOING TO MAKE IT MY MISSION IN LIFE TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU.

HE GOT CONVICTED APPROPRIATELY.

IF I STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING DEPLORABLE ABOUT ZIONISTS OR ISRAELIS OR ANY GROUP, THAT'S NOTHING MORE THAN SPEECH, THAT SHOULD BE COUNTERED, BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE DISCIPLINED, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOSING.

>> ONE OF THE SORT OF KEY FLASH POINTS, I THINK, WOULD BE AROUND, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, RIGHT?

PALESTINE SHOULD BE FREE, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, RIGHT?

SOME PEOPLE ARE INTERPRETING THAT AS A BELIEF THAT ISRAEL SHOULDN'T EXIST.

NOW, UNDER THE DEFINITION, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE DEFINITIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM UNDER THE FRAMEWORK WAS DENYING THE JEWISH PEOPLE THEIR RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION, EG, BY CLAIMING THAT THE EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS A RACIST ENDEAVOR.

RIGHT?

THAT IS ONE OF, SORT OF THE DEFINITIONS, BUT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE THAT PHRASE, SOME OF THEM SAY, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS THAT -- THEY BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE A MULTI-ETHNIC, MULTI-RELIGIOUS DEMOCRACY LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

THAT WAS KIND OF THE HINGE UPON WHICH THAT CONGRESSIONAL HEARING, WHERE SOME OF THE, YOU KNOW, CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS WERE HAMMERING ON THE PRESIDENTS OF A NUMBER OF THE UNIVERSITIES, AND SAYING THAT THEY WERE INSUFFICIENTLY ZEALOUS ABOUT GUARDING AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM AND GENOCIDE.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE -- THAT DECEMBER 5th HEARING WAS REALLY A SETUP IN A LOT OF WAYS, AND I FOUND IT VERY OFFENSIVE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO WOULDN'T CRITICIZE PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR HOSTING HOLOCAUST DENIER, WOULDN'T CRITICIZE HIM FOR SAYING IMMIGRANTS ARE POISONING THE BLOOD OF THE COUNTRY, NOW APPARENTLY CARE ABOUT ISSUES LIKE ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND WHAT THEY SET UP WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, CLAIM THAT FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA MEANS GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS, AND ARE YOU GOING TO STOP CLAIMS FOR GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS?

SPEECH IS DEPLORABLE, YOU DON'T DISCIPLINE PEOPLE FOR IT, YOU USE THE ASSETS OF THE UNIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, TO GO AGAINST IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A POLL THAT CAME OUT THAT, WHAT WAS IT, 66% OF JEWISH STUDENTS HEAR FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA AS GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS, AND I FIND THAT -- THAT PHRASE DISTURBING, TOO.

I'M A ZIONIST, I BELIEVE IN THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AND SOME ARE USING IT TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, PRECISELY THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO RIGHT OF JEWS TO EXIST IN THAT AREA.

HOWEVER, 14% OF MUSLIMS, ONLY 14% OF MUSLIM STUDENTS SURVEYED SEE THAT AS A CALL FOR GETTING RID OF JEWS OR GENOCIDE.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S PART OF THE -- THE CHALLENGE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE HEARING DIFFERENT THINGS AT THE MOMENT.

AND I HAVE A COLLEAGUE AT BARD WHO WAS REALIZING THAT PEOPLE WERE THROWING AROUND TERMS LIKE ANTI-SEMITISM, GENOCIDE, ETHNIC CLEANSING, SETTLER COLONIALISM, AS WEAPONS, AND WE'RE IN A COLLEGE.

SO, SHE PUT TOGETHER A CLASS, I'M TEACHING THE SESSION ON ANTI-SEMITISM LATER THIS WEEK, WHAT DO THESE WORDS MEAN?

HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THEM?

WHY DO PEOPLE HEAR THEM DIFFERENTLY?

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT A UNIVERSITY SHOULD DO.

IT SHOULDN'T SAY, HERE'S A STATEMENT THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU INTO DISCIPLINE FOR -- AS LONG AS IT'S NOT A TRUE THREAT.

>> MUSLIM STUDENTS, MUSLIM PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HAVE HAD THIS COMPLAINT FOR SOME TIME ABOUT WORDS THAT ARE IMPORTANT IN THEIR CULTURE AND THEIR TRADITIONS THAT THEY FEEL LIKE HAD BEEN MISUSED.

JIHAD.

THAT CAN MEAN, LIKE, A JIHAD AGAINST BAD HABITS, WE'RE GOING TO WAGE A, YOU KNOW, WAR AGAINST BAD HABITS OF OUR OWN, AND THEY FEEL LIKE, WELL, WHY DO OTHER PEOPLE GET TO DEFINE WHAT WE THINK WITHOUT ASKING US WHAT WE MEAN BY THOSE WORDS?

SO, HOW DO YOU REDEFINE WORDS THAT HAVE BEEN CLAIMED FOR CERTAIN MEANINGS?

>> WELL, AND IT'S NOT NEW, I MEAN, IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT THE CASE HERE.

YOU SEE IT AROUND POLITICS, ILL IMMIGRATION, ABORTION.

I RUN A HATE STUDIES CENTER, AND I THINK, ESPECIALLY ON HOT BUTTON ISSUES, WHERE YOUR IDENTITY IS TETHERED TO AN ISSUE OF PERCEIVED SOCIAL JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE, WE FOE FROM BRAIN SCIENCE AND SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY AND OTHER FIELDS, INFORMED HATE STUDIES, WHAT HAPPENS TO HUMAN BEINGS?

WE GET INTO THESE SORT OF US VERSUS THEM BUCKETS, WE CRAVE SIMPLICITY, WE CRAVE CERTAINTY, WE CRAVE SYMBOLS.

AND PART OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING AROUND THE QUESTION OF THE DEFINITION AND OTHER THINGS, ARESYMBOLS.

AND WE DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN THE COMPLEXITY OF WHY THESE THINGS ARE SO CONTENTIOUS.

WE WANT SOMEBODY TO TELL US WHAT SIDE OF A LEDGER WE SHOULD PUT IT ON, AND THAT'S PART OF THE CONCERN I HAVE ABOUT THE PUSH OF THE I.R.A.

DEFINITION, AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF BILLS IN FRONT OF CONGRESS AT THE MOMENT THAT ARE CONSIDERING USING IT MORE FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, ALSO FOR FUNDING ISSUES, AND IN EUROPE, TOO.

AND I DON'T SEE THAT AS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I OBJECT TO, AGAIN WHAT GOVERNOR DeSANTIS, WHAT HE'S DOING IN FLORIDA ABOUT, WHAT DO WE TEACH ABOUT GENDER WHAT DO WE TEACH ABOUT RACE?

I MAY NOT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S BEING TAUGHT, BUT I DON'T WANT THE STATE TO DEFINE WHAT'S OKAY TO TEACH AND WHAT ISN'T?

I WANT FACULTY AND STUDENTS AND, YOU KNOW, UNIVERSITIES TO DO THAT.

AND ANTI-SEMITISM WAS A REAL PROBLEM, AND THERE ARE JEWISH STUDENTS WHO ARE BEING INTIMIDATED, BUT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT IS NOT TO USE LAW TO TRY TO SUPPRESS SPEECH WE DON'T LIKE.

IT'S TO ENCOURAGE STUDENTS, HOW TO TREAT EACH OTHER.

HOW TO REALIZE THAT WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME COMMUNITY TOGETHER, IT'S NOT A COMPETITION, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN FACULTY AND STUDENTS.

HOW DO WE ENGAGE THIS MOMENT TOGETHER?

AND WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY?

AREN'T YOU CURIOUS WHY THEY HAVE THAT VIEW?

CAN YOU HAVE EMOTIONAL EMPATHY TO IMAGINE YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES?

SO, THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS ON AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WORDS SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, TO GET THEM INTO TROUBLE.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, IT'S THE END OF THE SEMESTER, GRADUATIONS ARE AFOOT, IN SOME PLACES, STUDENTS ARE BEING ARRESTED, THEY'RE SAYING, THEY ARE GIVING THEM SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS, IF YOU DON'T LEAVE BY X TIME, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ARRESTED, THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED IN A NUMBER OF PLACES.

SO, IF YOU WERE ADVISING UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS WHO ARE ADDRESSING THIS, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED, WHAT WOULD YOU DO NOW?

>> IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION.

I'M GLAD I'M NOT IN THEIR SEATS, BUT WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM, AND I HAVE BEEN MEETING WITH BOARDS AND PRESIDENTS AND SO FORTH, IS THAT THEY SHOULD PRIORITIZE ACADEMIC FREEDOM IN TERMS OF WHATEVER THEY'RE DOING, AND SOME OF THE REASONS THAT WE'RE SEEING AT THE MOMENT IS NOT PRIORITIZING ACADEMIC FREEDOM.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ARRESTING STUDENTS SHOULD BE THE LAST RESORT.

FOR ANY REASON.

I SAW A STATEMENT THIS MORNING FROM THE PRESIDENT OF WESLEYAN, WHO SAID AS LONG AS THERE'S NOT VIOLENCE -- I UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS AND DIFFICULTIES WITH GRADUATIONS AND PEOPLE CAN'T USE THAT SPACE, IT'S NOT AN EASY SPACE, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED BY MASS ARRESTS OR MASS SUSPENSIONS, AND ONLY ENERGIZES THE PROTESTERS IN SOME WAY, TOO, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> KENNETH STERN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> IT'S BEEN MY HONOR TO BE WITH YOU, I THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> AND FINALLY, WHEN IT COMES TO WORDS, WE REMEMBER THE LIFE AND REMARKABLE WORK OF THE CELEBRATED AMERICAN NOVELIST PAUL AUSTER, WHO DIED YESTERDAY AGED 77.

HE WROTE MORE THAN 30 BOOKS OVER THE SPAN OF HIS CAREER, INCLUDING HIS ACCLAIMED NEW YORK TRILOGY, A SERIES OF MYSTERIES WHICH HE USED TO POSE EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS TO HIS READERS.

WHILE ACCEPTING ONE OF SPAIN'S TOP LITERARY AWARDS IN 2006, HE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HE WAS LIVING HIS DREAM, SAYING, QUOTE, I HAVE SPENT MY LIFE IN CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE I HAVE NEVER SEEN, WITH PEOPLE I WILL NEVER KNOW, AND I HOPE TO CONTINUE UNTIL THE DAY I STOP BREATHING.

IT IS THE ONLY JOB I'VE EVER WANTED.

AND WHAT A MESSAGE THAT IS, AS WE DISCUSS HOW TO HAVE A DIALOGUE IN THE MOST FRAUGHT OF TIMES.

THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.