May 14, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PHYSICAL FIGHTS IN PARLIAMENT AS GEORGIA PASSES A CONTROVERSIAL RUSSIA-STYLE SECURITY BILL.

AS THOUSANDS PROTEST, THE STAKES ARE HUGE.

PRESIDENT SALOME ZOURABICHVILI JOINS ME.

>>> THEN -- >> WE KNOW THIS IS A CHALLENGING TIME, BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT IN THE NEAR TERM, THE ASSISTANCE IS NOW ON THE WAY.

>> ANOTHER STOP IN KYIV, BUT CAN AMERICAN PROMISES STOP THE RUSSIAN ADVANCE IN TIME?

FORMER UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK JOINS ME.

>>> PLUS -- >> A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS SHIFTED AWAY FROM THIS GIANT TRANSFORMATION THAT'S UNDER WAY IN RUSSIA.

>> RUSSIA REMASTERED.

HOW PUTIN HAS CHANGED THAT COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.

DAVID HERSZENHORN JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN WITH HIS IMPORTANT NEW REPORTING SERIES.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, A KIDS BOOK ABOUT ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

WHY THAT MATTERS FOR US AND OUR CHILDREN.

I SPEAK TO WRITER REZA ASLAN.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

GEORGIA'S FUTURE HANGS IN THE BALANCE.

THE FORMER SOVIET REPUBLIC HAS SEEN MASS PROTESTS FOR WEEKS COMING TO A HEAD TODAY AS RIOT POLICE CLASHED WITH PRO-EUROPEAN DEMONSTRATORS AFTER ITS PARLIAMENT PASSED A CONTROVERSIAL FOREIGN AGENTS BILL, WHICH CRITICS SAY MIRRORS A LAW IN RUSSIA WHICH IS USED TO CRACK DOWN ON ANY OPPOSITION AND ANY DISSENT.

MUCH LIKE UKRAINE, GEORGIA IS CAUGHT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND EUROPE.

BUT TODAY THE COUNTRY APPEARS TO HAVE TAKEN A STEP BACK INTO RUSSIA'S ORBIT AND AWAY FROM WHAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF GEORGIANS WANT, WHICH IS TO JOIN THE EU.

>> I FEEL LIKE THIS LAW IS GOING TO DESTROY THE EUROPEAN FUTURE THAT MY COUNTRY HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR.

I THINK THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM US THAT THE MAJORITY OF US IS, LIKE, VERY DESPERATE TO HAVE.

>> THERE WERE EVEN PHYSICAL FIGHTS INSIDE PARLIAMENT DURING THE DEBATE.

THE NEW LAW REQUIRES ORGANIZATIONS THAT RECEIVE MORE THAN 20% OF THEIR FUNDING FROM ABROAD TO REGISTER AS AGENTS OF FOREIGN INFLUENCE.

CRITICS CALL IT AN ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MOVE, INCLUDING EU OFFICIALS WHO SAY IT WILL DAMAGE THE COUNTRY'S CHANCES OF JOINING THE BLOC.

THIS BILL HAS BEEN SPEARHEADED BY THE RULING PARTY, WHICH IS CONSIDERED TO BE UNDER THE CONTROL OF A PRO-KREMLIN OLIGARCH.

GEORGIA'S PRESIDENT, SALOME ZOURABICHVILI, HAS VOWED TO VETO IT, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM TBILISI.

PRESIDENT ZOURABICHVILI, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

HOW DANGEROUS AND CRITICAL A MOMENT IS THIS FOR GEORGIA IN ITS DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION?

>> IT IS CRITICAL BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, GEORGIA HAS RECEIVED THE CANDIDATE STATUS TO THE EUROPEAN UNION LAST DECEMBER AND WAS ON ITS WAY TO HAVE THE OPENING OF NEGOTIATIONS, ADDITIONAL NEGOTIATIONS, BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

SO IT'S VERY MIDDLE POINT THAT THERE IS THIS NEW PRESSURE, THE INTRODUCTION OF THIS RUSSIAN LAW BECAUSE IT'S NOTHING ELSE BUT A RUSSIAN LAW, AND MANY OTHER LAWS THAT ARE VERY DISTURBING AND THAT TAKE US AWAY FROM THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION.

THE MESSAGE THAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY ON THE STREETS, THE WAY TO TREAT VERY PEACEFUL PROTESTERS IS A VERY RUSSIAN WAY.

IT'S A WAY OF INTIMIDATION, OF TRYING TO STOP THE PROTESTS AND TO STOP PEOPLE TO SAY THAT THEY WANT THEIR EUROPEAN PASS BACK.

>> PRESIDENT ZOURABICHVILI, I JUST WONDER BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THAT SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR HAPPENED IN UKRAINE BACK IN 2013.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANTED THEIR PASSAGE TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, PARTNERSHIP WITH THE EU WHILE THE KREMLIN-BACKED PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE BASICALLY SAID NO, AND THAT CAUSED, YOU KNOW, HUGE PROTESTS, WHICH EVENTUALLY LED TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

DO YOU SEE THAT DANGER AS WELL?

DO YOU SEE UKRAINE CAUGHT IN A SITUATION THAT COULD LEAD TO -- SORRY -- GEORGIA CAUGHT IN A SIMILAR SITUATION?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT'S NOT -- IT'S VERY SIMILAR METHODS BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY RUSSIA BEHAVES AND GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE GETTING CLOSER TO RUSSIA BEHAVE.

BUT WE ARE IN VERY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

WE HAVE GONE THROUGH THE SAME PROTESTS, AND WE ARE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.

THERE IS HERE A POPULATION THAT HAS GONE THROUGH MANY TESTS AND HAS RESISTED.

THESE ARE VERY PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS, AND WE HAVE ELECTIONS.

AND I'LL BE LEADING THE PRO-EUROPEAN FRONT IN THOSE ELECTIONS.

THAT WILL BE A KIND OF REFERENDUM, NOT BY INVOLVING MYSELF DIRECTLY IN THE ELECTIONS, BUT I WILL BE THE GUARANTOR OF THESE PRO-WESTERN, PRO-EUROPEAN FRONT OF POLITICAL PARTIES AND OF CIVIL SOCIETY.

WE HAVE A VERY MATURE CIVIL SOCIETY, VERY MATURE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING FOR THREE WEEKS NOW WITHOUT HAVING BROKEN ANY WINDOW OR BURNED ANY CAR.

AND THAT WILL TELL A LOT FOR A NUMBER OF OTHER COUNTRIES ABOUT HOW DETERMINED THE POPULATION ARE TO KEEP THEIR EUROPEAN PASS.

>> FIGURES SHOW THAT SOME 80% OF YOUR POPULATION DISAGREES WITH THIS AND WANTS TO BE CLOSER AND EVENTUALLY JOIN THE EU.

YOU, BEFORE THIS LAW WAS PASSED, SAID IN A POST THAT THE PEOPLE ALWAYS WIN.

WELL, IT APPEARS TODAY THE PEOPLE LOST.

YOU SAY THAT YOU'RE GOING TO VETO THIS BILL WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR DESK.

CAN YOU?

DOES IT MATTER BECAUSE THE ACTUAL RULING PARTY IS IN THE MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT?

>> YEAH.

THERE WAS NO ILLUSION, I THINK, AT ANY TIME BECAUSE THEY HAVE REINTRODUCED THIS LAW, AND THEY HAVE A MAJORITY IN THE PARLIAMENT.

SO THERE WAS NO ILLUSION THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GO AHEAD.

I WILL VETO BECAUSE THAT'S A SYMBOLIC VETO, AS SYMBOLIC AS THIS RUSSIAN LAW.

WE HAVE MANY OTHER RUSSIAN LAWS.

WE HAVE A LAW ON MAKING GEORGIA AN OFFSHORE OF THE OFFSHORES, WHICH IS VERY STRANGE AND VERY NONTRANSPARENT.

THERE IS IN PREPARATION A LAW ON CHANGING THE PENSION FUND AND MAKING IT SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE TO THE GOVERNMENT.

SO THERE ARE MANY, MANY CONCERNS.

BUT THE WAY AND THE PLACE WHERE WE CAN REVERSE ALL OF THIS IS THE ELECTIONS IN OCTOBER.

THAT'S VERY CLOSE.

26th OF OCTOBER.

AND WE HAVE TO USE THIS MOBILIZATION OF THE SOCIETY AND THIS CONSOLIDATION OF THE POLITICAL PARTIES TO GO AND WIN THOSE ELECTIONS BECAUSE THAT'S THE EUROPEAN WAY.

IT'S NOT OVERTHROWING GOVERNMENTS.

IT'S WINNING IN THE ELECTIONS, AND THIS OVERWHELMING MAJORITY THAT YOU MENTIONED, THAT WANTS EUROPE, IS GOING TO BE THERE ON THE DAY OF THE ELECTIONS.

>> NOW LET'S GET TO THE NITTY-GRITTY OF THIS LAW.

WHY IS IT SO OPPOSED BY THE MAJORITY?

WHAT MAKES IT SO DANGEROUS?

THOSE GROUPS THAT BACK IT -- WELL, THE RULING GROUP THAT BACKS IT, WHICH WE UNDERSTAND IS PRO-KREMLIN OR BACKED BY THE KREMLIN, SAYS IT IS ALL ABOUT SOVEREIGNTY, YOU KNOW, AND INDEPENDENCE.

SO WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A COPY, A DUPLICATE OF THE LAW THAT PUTIN ADOPTED IN 2012, AND THE LAW WAS USED TO REALLY COMPLETELY OPPRESS AND REPRESS THE CIVIL SOCIETY.

AS A RESULT, WE SEE TODAY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN RUSSIA.

AND IT HAS THIS MAIN AIM.

AND WHAT IS EVEN MORE PRE-OCCUPYING IN A COUNTRY LIKE GEORGIA THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN THAT, THAT THROUGH THIS LAW AND THROUGH THEIR RHETORIC AT THE SAME TIME, THE AUTHORITIES ARE CALLING, IN FACT, OUR PARTNERS OF 30 YEARS FOREIGN POWERS THAT WANT TO SUBVERT THE COUNTRY.

THEY ARE CALLING THEM, OUR PARTNERS, AGENTS THAT WANT HERE TO PROVOKE A NEW WAR.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

AND THE POPULATION HERE IS VERY WELL AWARE OF THIS OLD RUSSIAN, SOVIET PROPAGANDA THREATS.

SO IT DOESN'T WORK.

THEY SAY WHAT'S HAPPENING, AND THEY'RE GOING TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING.

NOT IN THE PARLIAMENT CLEARLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO OUTRULE THIS MAJORITY.

YESTERDAY, THE THIRD HEARING ON THE COMMITTEE WAS ADOPTED IN 1 MINUTE, 7 SECONDS.

THAT'S A WAY TO SHOW HOW UNITED IS THIS ONE PARTY RULE.

BUT WE HAVE ELECTIONS.

WE HAVE A VIBRANT CIVIL SOCIETY.

WE HAVE NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE NOT YET CLOSED OR REPRESSED.

WE HAVE PARTNERS THAT ARE VERY PRESENT, AND WE SEE THAT TODAY.

MR. O'BRIEN IS PRESENT IN TBILISI.

HE'S MAKING A PRESS CONFERENCE.

WE HAD A LONG DISCUSSION EARLIER ON.

WE HAVE THE PRESIDENTS OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEES OF SEVEN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TOMORROW MORNING, FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTERS OF FOUR BALTIC AND ICELAND COUNTRIES, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO WE ARE NOT ALONE.

WE'RE SUPPORTED, AND WE'LL GO TO THE END.

>> YOU SAY THAT, AND YOU MUST ALSO BE AWARE OF RUSSIA'S EXPANDING INFLUENCE, THE FACT THAT RUSSIA STILL OCCUPIES SOME 20% OF GEORGIAN TERRITORY SINCE 2008, AS IT DOES IN UKRAINE, AND RUSSIA'S SUCCESS, FRANKLY, IN DRIVING WEDGES BETWEEN ITS VISION AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN A WESTERN VISION.

SO THE QUESTION, I GUESS, IS ARE YOU CONFIDENT -- OR, RATHER, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA IS TRYING TO SABOTAGE GEORGIA'S RAPPROCHEMENT AND FURTHER INTEGRATION IN THE EU AS SOME IN YOUR COUNTRY BELIEVE?

>> I THINK THAT RUSSIA IS WORRIED ABOUT THAT, HAS BEEN WORRIED, AND IS MORE WORRIED WHEN IT COMES CLOSER AND CLOSER, WHICH IS THE CASE WHEN WE HAVE ALREADY THE CANDIDATE STATUS, AND WE ARE IN THE POSSIBILITY -- HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO SEE THE OPENING OF NEGOTIATIONS.

SO THEY CERTAINLY DON'T LIKE IT.

BUT THEY ALSO DO NOT LIKE THE EVOLUTION OF ARMENIA.

THEY ALSO DO NOT LIKE THE EVOLUTION OF AZERBAIJAN AND THEIR CLOSENESS WITH TURKEY.

THEY ALSO DO NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY DO NOT CONTROL THE BLACK SEA AS THEY WOULD WISH TO.

BUT NOT EVERYTHING THAT RUSSIA LIKES HAPPENS.

SO WE ARE, AGAIN -- WE ARE DETERMINED.

YES, WE HAVE 20% OF OUR TERRITORY THAT IS OCCUPIED BY RUSSIA, BUT THAT DOES NOT DIVERT GEORGIA FROM FOLLOWING ITS EUROPEAN PATH.

IT HAS NOT STOPPED US AN INCH, AND IT WILL NOT STOP US FROM CONTINUING.

>> WELL, PRESIDENT SALOME ZOURABICHVILI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM TBILISI TONIGHT.

>>> TURNING NOW TO UKRAINE, WHERE THE STRENGTH OF RUSSIA'S AGGRESSION IS BEING FELT ON THE BATTLEFIELD, UKRAINE'S TOP GENERAL SAYS THE SITUATION IN THE NORTHERN KHARKIV REGION HAS, QUOTE, SIGNIFICANTLY WORSENED AFTER RUSSIA'S RECENT ADVANCE ON SEVERAL VILLAGES AROUND THAT CITY, WHICH IS UKRAINE'S SECOND BIGGEST.

U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN IS IN KYIV TRYING TO PROVIDE REASSURANCE.

>> THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS WILL DEMAND A GREAT DEAL OF UKRAINIANS, WHO HAVE ALREADY SACRIFICED SO MUCH.

BUT I HAVE COME TO UKRAINE WITH A MESSAGE.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN BY YOUR SIDE FROM DAY ONE.

WE ARE WITH YOU TODAY, AND WE WILL STAY BY YOUR SIDE UNTIL UKRAINE'S SECURITY, ITS SOVEREIGNTY, ITS ABILITY TO CHOOSE ITS OWN PATH IS GUARANTEED.

>> IT IS THE FIRST VISIT FROM AN ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL SINCE THE LONG-STALLED AID PACKAGE PASSED THROUGH CONGRESS.

BUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS MADE CLEAR HIS COUNTRY STILL URGENTLY NEEDS MORE AIR DEFENSES.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS THE FORMER DEFENSE FOREIGN MINISTER ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK.

HE'S JOINING US FROM KYIV.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE SECRETARY BLINKEN DID GO THERE.

AT THE END OF HIS STATEMENT WAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

USUALLY THEY SAY WE'LL STAY AS LONG AS IT TAKES, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

BUT HE SEEMED TO SAY, WE'LL STAY AT YOUR SIDE UNTIL ALL THESE CONDITIONS ARE MET, IN OTHER WORDS, UNTIL YOUR VICTORY.

DID YOU READ IT THAT WAY?

>> YES.

YES, ABSOLUTELY.

WE SEE ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING WITHIN THE WESTERN GOVERNMENTS THAT THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS WAR IS FOR UKRAINE TO WIN IT.

CLEARLY THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT OTHER AGENDAS IN THE BEGINNING, PARTICULARLY IN 2022 WHEN THERE WAS A DISCUSSION TO PUT UKRAINE IN A BETTER PLACE AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AND SO ON.

BUT RIGHT NOW PEOPLE SEE THAT PUTIN IS ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT TO GO TILL THE END.

HE POINTS TO DESTROY UKRAINE, TO DESTROY INTERNATIONAL LAW, INTERNATIONAL WORLD ORDER, AND BASICALLY THERE'S NO OTHER WAY.

HE NEEDS TO LOSE.

UKRAINE NEEDS TO WIN.

RIGHT NOW WE SEE MORE AND MORE GOVERNMENTS UNDERSTAND THAT, INCLUDING UNITED STATES.

>> OKAY, RIGHT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE -- I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW YOUR ANALYSIS OF UKRAINIAN LOSSES RIGHT NOW ON THE NORTHEASTERN FRONT AROUND KHARKIV, THE FACT THAT VOLUNTARILY -- WE'RE TOLD VOLUNTARILY AND NOT FORCED EVACUATIONS ARE HAPPENING.

WHAT IS HAPPENING THAT WE NEED TO KNOW?

WHAT IS THE ACCURATE SITUATION AROUND THE KHARKIV CITY?

>> RUSSIANS ARE PRESSING IN A NUMBER OF LOCATIONS, IN A NUMBER OF VILLAGES AND SMALL TOWNS, WHICH ARE RIGHT AT THE BORDER.

WE HAVE A VERY EXTENSIVE FRONT LINE WITH RUSSIA.

IT'S 1,500 KILOMETERS, SO IT'S LIKE -- IT'S HUGE.

AND OF COURSE THE WHOLE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE POSITIONS ARE QUITE STRETCHED AND SPREAD QUITE THIN.

AND SO WHAT RUSSIANS ARE DOING, THEY'RE TRYING TO PUT SOME EFFORTS IN SOME LOCATIONS TO GO TO SOME VILLAGES IN DIFFERENT PLACES AROUND KHARKIV.

ALSO TO THE NORTH, AND BASICALLY THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO ADVANCE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

USUALLY THIS IS HAPPENING WITHIN ONE OR TWO VILLAGES WHICH ARE RIGHT AT THE BORDER, WHERE THERE IS NO SERIOUS ENFORCEMENTS AND PRESENCE OF UKRAINIAN FORCES IS LIMITED.

AND THEY HAVE SOME TACTICAL SUCCESS THERE, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE ANY SORT OF STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE WHICH THEY'RE GETTING FROM THAT.

AND CERTAINLY THE REINFORCEMENTS BEEN SENT.

>> SO YOU SAY YOUR REINFORCEMENTS HAVE BEEN SENT.

FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THE HIGH GROUND AT CHAZZIVE YAR?

THAT'S ONE QUESTION.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS THERE WILL BE NO GAPS IN OUR DEFENSE.

BUT YOUR MILITARY INTELLIGENCE CHIEF SAYS THAT "WE ARE CRITICALLY LOW ON AMMUNITION AND PEOPLE."

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

WE'RE STILL LOW BECAUSE THE ASSISTANCE WHICH IS COMING, IT'S COMING QUITE SLOW.

I KNOW THAT THERE'S BEEN A QUITE SUBSTANTIAL OF D.O.D.

AND THE OTHER MINISTRIES TO HELP LOGISTICALLY TO BRING THIS, BUT TO BRING THIS TO THE 1,500 KILOMETER FRONT LINE IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

SO, YES, WE STILL HAVE SHORTAGE OF AMMUNITION IN A WHOLE NUMBER OF LOCATIONS, AND RUSSIANS SEE WHERE THAT SHORTAGE IS, AND THAT'S WHERE THEY TRY TO -- THAT'S WHERE THEY TRY TO BREAK.

AND A DIFFERENT PART OF THE THEATER, WHICH IS CHASIV YAR, WHICH IS IN DONBAS REGION, THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THE HIGH GROUND IN THAT LITTLE TOWN IN ORDER TO CREATE A FAVORABLE CONDITIONS FOR THE FURTHER ADVANCEMENTS BECAUSE BASICALLY THEIR IDEA, WHICH STILL IS THE SAME FOR MONTHS AND YEARS NOW, IS TO OCCUPY THE WHOLE DONBAS REGION, WHICH I THINK THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED WITH THAT.

BUT THEY'RE TRYING TO AS MUCH AS THEY CAN RIGHT NOW.

>> CAN YOU ANALYZE HOW MUCH THE DELAY IN WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION COST YOUR FORCES?

>> WELL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF CASUALTIES.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE VILLAGES AND DIFFERENT OTHER LOCATIONS.

CERTAINLY THERE'S BEEN A MASSIVE SHORTAGE OF THE AMMUNITION FOR MONTHS NOW, LIKE FOR MANY, MANY MONTHS.

THE PROPORTION BETWEEN US AND RUSSIANS IS -- HAS BEEN SOMETIMES EVEN 1 TO 10.

SO THERE'S BEEN A SEVERE SHORTAGE AND RATIONING OF THE BATTLEFIELD UNITS WERE RECEIVING VERY FEW EVERY DAY, AND BASICALLY THEY COULD ONLY FIGHT FOR "X" NUMBER OF HOURS, AND AFTER THAT, THEY COULD JUST DEFEND WITH THE SMALL ARMS AND SO ON.

SO CERTAINLY WITH THIS TYPE OF WAR, LIKE A LAND WAR, WHICH WE HAVE RIGHT NOW THERE, THE ARTILLERY IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

AND OBVIOUSLY WHEN RUSSIA HAS ARTILLERY, WE HAVE LE LITTLE OF IT, THERE WILL BE THESE CONSEQUENCES.

UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE EXTREMELY BRAVE AND VERY RESOLVED, BUT WE NEED TO BE UNDERSTANDING THE OBJECTIVE REALITY.

IF THERE'S NO WEAPONS, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO HOLD POSITIONS.

>> SO I JUST WANT TO, ON THAT NOTE, JUST QUOTE FROM THE FORMER NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, WHO BASICALLY SAID, YOU KNOW, NORTH KOREA WAS ABLE TO DELIVER TO RUSSIA THE SAME QUANTITY OF ARTILLERY, MUNITION IN ONE MONTH EQUIVALENT TO WHAT THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS ABLE TO DELIVER IN A YEAR.

THAT'S EMBARRASSING.

THAT IS -- THAT'S QUITE A STARK STATEMENT, AND OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS SAID THAT YOU NEED A HUGE AMOUNT MORE STILL OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AND TO KNOCK THOSE MISSILES FROM THE SKY BEFORE THEY REACH YOU.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK, GIVEN THIS FACT, IS THE BEST UKRAINE CAN HOPE FOR IN THE NEXT MONTHS OR FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR?

>> WELL, I MEAN THERE IS CERTAINLY STOCKS OF AMMUNITION IN SOME COUNTRIES.

THERE ARE STILL STOCKS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THE FACT THAT YOU, I'M SURE THAT WILL HELP.

BUT WE ABSOLUTELY MUST REALIZE THE FACT THAT EUROPEAN INDUSTRY AND GENERALLY EUROPEAN DEFENSE SECTOR WASN'T PREPARED FOR ANY LARGE WAR IN EUROPE.

AND THAT'S A FACT BECAUSE THEY RUN OUT OF THEIR STOCKS VERY QUICKLY, AND RIGHT NOW THERE'S BEEN A DECISION LAST YEAR TO SUPPLY 1 MILLION ROUNDS OF MUNITIONS TO UKRAINE AND THAT HASN'T BEEN DONE BECAUSE SIMPLY THEY CANNOT MAKE THEM.

SO EUROPE NEEDS TO STEP UP THERE, AND IT'S NOT JUST FOR UKRAINE.

IT'S GENERALLY TO ENHANCE EUROPEAN SECURITY.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

AND THAT'S ALSO A FACTOR.

AND I THINK THERE ARE ALREADY FACTORIES BEING BUILT IN EUROPE RIGHT NOW FOR MUNITION.

THERE ARE ACTIVITIES HAPPENING, BUT UNFORTUNATELY THAT TAKES TIME.

AND RUSSIANS ARE TRYING TO USE THAT WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO MAXIMIZE THEIR GAIN IN THE BATTLEFIELD, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IN THE INFORMATION ATMOSPHERE SO THEY'RE PROJECTING THEIR SUCCESS, WHICH WE NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

LOTS OF THEIR GAINS, PARTICULARLY THESE VILLAGES AROUND KHARKIV, THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE STRATEGIC EFFECT.

IT'S MORE TO SHOW TO MAYBE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, MAYBE RUSSIAN COMMUNITY, THAT RUSSIA STILL CAN BE WINNING.

BUT THEY CANNOT WIN STRATEGICALLY STILL, AND THAT'S WHAT WE SEE BECAUSE DESPITE THEIR EFFORTS THEY STILL CANNOT SUBSTANTIALLY ADVANCE IN THE FRONT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK UKRAINE'S BLACK SEA SUCCESSES DON'T GET AS MUCH PLAY?

YOU KNOW, WHY HAVEN'T YOU CAPITALIZED IN TERMS OF THE INFORMATION SPHERE ON THAT BECAUSE IT'S EXTRAORDINARY WHAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO THERE WITH THE DRONES.

READING TODAY THAT THE GRAIN EXPORTS HAVE GONE OUT, YOU KNOW, ALMOST TO THE SAME LEVELS AS PRE-WAR OR PRE-2022 FULL-SCALE INVASION.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THAT YOU'RE DOING IT WITHOUT BEING HASSLED RIGHT NOW.

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

SO RUSSIA HAD AN ABSOLUTE MAJORITY IN NAVAL POWER, AND OBVIOUSLY THEY EXITED FROM THE AGREEMENT WHICH WAS BROKERED INTO 2022 BY TURKEY AND UNITED NATIONS IN ORDER TO SECURE THE GRAIN CORRIDOR.

THEY JUST EXITED FROM THAT AGREEMENT THINKING THAT WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO.

AND THEN WE EFFECTIVELY DESTROYED THE FUNCTION OF THE BLACK SEA FLEET SINGLE-HANDEDLY BY ALTERNATIVE WEAPONS, BY DRONES, ET CETERA, AND MISSILES.

OF COURSE IT'S EXTRAORDINARY, AND WE REBUILD THE FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION IN THE WESTERN PART OF LEXI TO THE PRE-WAR LEVEL.

AND THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO SAY THAT'S THE WAY UKRAINE CAN WIN.

UKRAINE CAN WIN WHEN IT HAS THE RIGHT SOLUTIONS, AND WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD UP ON THAT SUCCESS.

I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE DAYS PERHAPS EVEN THIS YEAR WHEN WE CAN SAY THAT WE COMPLETELY LOCKED THE BLACK SEA FLEET OF RUSSIA AND RESTORED FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION IN THE BLACK SEA GENERALLY.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO ON LAND AS WELL.

THE VICTORY IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE, AND THE BLACK SEA IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT SORT OF MOVING SORT OF THINKING ABOUT ALL OF THIS WITH TONY BLINKEN'S STATEMENTS.

DO YOU THINK THE IDEA OF NOT WANTING TO -- AND I'LL QUOTE BIDEN -- ENTER WORLD WAR III WITH RUSSIA OVER UKRAINE IS STILL A DOMINANT THOUGHT?

IN OTHER WORDS, THERE'S STILL SOME SLOWNESS, I THINK, IN PRODUCING YOU OR SENDING YOU LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY.

SOME OF HAVE COME, ATACMS AND OTHER SUCH THINGS, BUT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS STILL A CONCERN BY THE WEST OF SOMEHOW FURTHER PROVOKING PUTIN?

>> PROVOKING TO WHAT?

THAT'S THE QUESTION WHICH WE ASK BECAUSE HE'S ALREADY MOBILIZING AS MUCH AS HE CAN.

HE'S ALREADY PRODUCING AS MANY WEAPONS AS HE CAN.

SO THE ONLY RESORT WHICH HE HAS IS OBVIOUSLY THE NUCLEAR ESCALATION.

BUT THE WORLD AND THAT ASSUMES ALL GLOBAL POWERS, NOT JUST WESTERN, HAVE MANAGED TO EXPLAIN TO PUTIN THAT A NUCLEAR ESCALATION IS DEFINITELY NOT TO HIS INTEREST.

AND AS WE CAN SEE RIGHT NOW, EXCEPT FOR THE VERBAL KIND OF NUCLEAR RATTLING, HE CANNOT DO MUCH, AND HE'S NOT DOING MUCH BECAUSE HE CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS THRESHOLD IS MUCH WORSE TO HIM.

SO ESSENTIALLY, I MEAN, HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT MUCH ROOM FOR ESCALATION RIGHT NOW, AND I DON'T THINK THESE CONCERNS ARE VALID ANYMORE.

WE UNDERSTAND THERE'S BEEN SOME CONCERNS BEFORE, BUT RIGHT NOW WE CLEARLY SEE WE PASSED ALREADY THROUGH THESE ESCALATORY KIND OF THRESHOLDS MANY, MANY TIMES, AND RUSSIANS CAN DO ONLY WHAT THEY CAN DO, BUT THEY'RE TRYING AS MUCH AS THEY CAN.

SO I THINK THAT ALL THOSE SELF-DETERRENCE AND SELF-RESTRAINT ABOUT PROVIDING SOME MISSILES AND SO ON, THEY'RE SIMPLY DELAYING THE SITUATION AND THEY'RE ACTUALLY NOT WORKING TO ANYONE'S FAVOR EXCEPT PUTIN'S.

SO I THINK THAT THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY DEFINITELY NEED TO RECONSIDER THAT AND UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED TO WIN, AND THE BEST WAY TO WIN IS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE WITH AS LESS SELF-DETERRENCE AS POSSIBLE.

>> ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY, CURRENT GOVERNMENT ADVISER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, THE POLITICAL TENSION THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN GEORGIA AND THE WAR IN UKRAINE, EACH HAVE A COMMON CAUSE.

YEP, VLADIMIR PUTIN'S EFFORTS TO DENY THEM DEMOCRACY AND INTEGRATION WITH EUROPE AND EXPAND RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

DAVID HERSZENHORN IS A SPECIALIST ON THE REGION FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND SPEARHEADS ITS RUSSIA REMASTERED SERIES.

HE'S JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN NOW TO EXPLORE PUTIN'S DRAMATIC DOMESTIC TRANSFORMATION, WHICH PRIORITIZES A MILITARY POSTURE.

>> DAVID HERSZENHORN FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST," THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A NEW SERIES OUT, "RUSSIA REMASTERED," AND IT FASCINATED ME BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH THAT I DIDN'T REALIZE WAS HAPPENING IN RUSSIA BECAUSE I HAVE, PROBABLY LIKE MOST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET, BEEN LOOKING AT NEWS ABOUT RUSSIA IN THE CONTEXT OF THE UKRAINE WAR.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO LAUNCH THE SERIES?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, HARI.

BECAUSE SO MUCH BANDWIDTH, SO MUCH ATTENTION IS FOCUSED ON UKRAINE, A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS SHIFTED AWAY FROM THIS GIANT TRANSFORMATION THAT'S UNDER WAY IN RUSSIA.

AND IF WE STEP BACK, THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A CIVILIZATIONAL FIGHT BETWEEN UKRAINE, WHICH WANTS TO BE A DEMOCRACY, TO BE A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, TO BE A MEMBER OF NATO, TO JOIN THE WESTERN COMMUNITY OF NATIONS, AND RUSSIA, WHICH HAS A TOTALITARIAN SYSTEM, AN AUTHORITARIAN LEADER FOR THE PAST QUARTER CENTURY.

VLADIMIR PUTIN JUST INAUGURATED -- WE CAN'T EVEN CALL IT A REAL PRESIDENTIAL TERM BECAUSE HE'S BEEN CIRCUMVENTING TERM LIMITS FOR DECADES NOW.

AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT WAR, FOLKS HAVE LOST SIGHT OF RUSSIA ITSELF, JUST HOW MUCH CHANGE IS GOING ON THERE.

AND THE FACT THAT FOR AMERICANS, FOR ESPECIALLY WESTERN EUROPEAN RESIDENTS, IT IS RUSSIA THAT IS THE THREAT, RUSSIA THAT HAS THE WORLD'S LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENAL.

SO KEEPING THAT IN MIND, WE WANTED TO BRING READERS' ATTENTION BACK TO WHAT IS HAPPENING UNDER VLADIMIR PUTIN.

THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FAR LONGER THAN THE INVASION WHICH BEGAN FULL-SCALE, OF COURSE, IN FEBRUARY OF 2022.

BUT INDEED IT HAS ACCELERATED.

PUTIN HAS LEVERAGED THE WAR, LEVERAGED THE INVASION TO SPEED ALL OF THIS UP IN VERY DRAMATIC FASHION.

>> YOU HAVE THESE WAYS FOR AN OUTSIDER TO LOOK AT WHAT'S LEGITIMATELY CALLED PUTINISM, RIGHT?

AND ONE OF THOSE, YOU POINT OUT, IS FORGING AN ULTRA CONSERVATIVE, PURITANICAL SOCIETY MOBILIZED AGAINST LIBERAL FREEDOMS AND ESPECIALLY HOSTILE TO GAY AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, IN WHICH FAMILY POLICY AND SOCIAL WELFARE SPENDING BOOST TRADITIONAL ORTHODOX VALUES.

WHAT IS HIS INTEREST IN TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, KIND OF HEARKEN BACK TO A NOSTALGIC RUSSIA, A "MAKE RUSSIA GREAT AGAIN" CAMPAIGN?

WHAT'S HE TRYING TO DO?

>> SO PART OF THIS IS AN APPEAL TO MORE TRADITIONAL SOCIETIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

BUT MAINLY IT'S TO POSITION RUSSIA AS THE ANTITHESIS OF THE U.S.-LED GLOBAL ORDER, TO UPEND THAT GLOBAL ORDER, TO PRESENT A CHALLENGE TO IT.

RUSSIA, OF COURSE, FOR ALL OF ITS COMMUNIST DECADES, YOU KNOW, DIDN'T PUT RELIGION TO THE FOREFRONT.

NOW PUTIN IS BASICALLY IN AN UNHOLY ALLIANCE WITH THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH.

THE PATE RE ACKEIRLE HAS EFFECTIVELY BLESSED THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AS YOU DESCRIBED, THE CRACKDOWN, THE PERSECUTION OF LGBTQ RIGHTS, I MEAN THE RUSSIAN COURT HAS OUTLAWED THE INTERNATIONAL LGBTQ MOVEMENT AS IF THAT HAS AN ADDRESS, AS IF THAT'S EVEN POSSIBLE.

BUT THIS BEGAN GOING BACK YEARS WITH, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ANTI-GAY PROPAGANDA LAWS, LAWS THAT WERE SUPPOSEDLY TO PROTECT CHILDREN FROM GAY PROPAGANDA.

WHAT IT EFFECTIVELY MEANT WAS ANYTHING THAT REFERRED TO A NON-TRADITIONAL LIFESTYLE WAS OUTLAWED.

SO THIS HAS BEEN GROWING AND GROWING.

THE MOTIVATION FOR PUTIN, TO PRESENT RUSSIA AS A RENEWED SUPERPOWER, AS AN ALTERNATIVE AND A CHALLENGER AND THE GLOBAL LEADER AGAINST THE WEST AND THE U.S. >> WHAT IS HE DOING TO MARGINALIZE OR SILENCE CRITICS?

OBVIOUSLY HE'S NOT A FAN OF ANYBODY WHO IS SAYING THAT HIS STANCE ON THE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE IS WRONG.

BUT YOU POINT OUT THAT THIS IS -- HE'S TRYING TO HAVE A CHILLING EFFECT ACROSS SOCIETY IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> SO WE NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.

THE RUSSIAN OPPOSITION AT THIS POINT IS EITHER EXILED, IMPRISONED, OR IN THE CASE OF ALEXEI NAVALNY, WHO I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT, DEAD.

NAVALNY, OF COURSE, WAS BEING PERSECUTED.

THERE WAS AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST HIM WITH A NERVE AGENT IN 2020.

THE PERSECUTION OF RUSSIAN POLITICAL OPPOSITION LEADERS IS NOT NEW.

BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE, IT HAS ACCELERATED.

OBVIOUSLY NAVALNY DIED IN AN ARCTIC PRISON.

HIS FAMILY ASSERTING THAT HE WAS, IN FACT, MURDERED.

WE KNOW THAT FSB ASSASSINS WERE AFTER HIM PREVIOUSLY.

VLADIMIR CAR MOW ZA, CONTRIBUTING OPINION WRITER TO THE "WASHINGTON POST," SENTENCED TO 25 YEARS IN PRISON FOR TREASON.

WHY?

BECAUSE HE WANTS A DEMOCRATIC RUSSIA WHERE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS CAN TAKE PLACE.

ILYA YASHIN, A COLLEAGUE OF NAVALNY'S, WHO IS ALSO IN PRISON, THEIR INTIMIDATION CAN'T BE UNDERSTATED.

NAVALNY'S WIFE HAS TRIED TO TAKE UP HIS BATON, OPERATING OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.

ALL NOW EITHER EXILED OR IF THEY REMAINED IN RUSSIA, IT SEEMED IMPRISONED OR DEAD.

QUITE A CHILLING EFFECT ON THE RUSSIAN OPPOSITION THERE.

AGAIN, NOT NEW BUT ACCELERATED SINCE THE INVASION OF UKRAINE WITH CRITICISM OF THE MILITARY OUTLAWED.

EVEN ONETIME ALLIES OF PUTIN -- REMEMBER YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, THE LEADER OF THE WAGNER MERCENARY GROUP, WHO HAD CHALLENGED PUTIN AND THE REGULAR DEFENSE MINISTRY, BRIEF REBELLION THAT HE THEN CALLED OFF, AND ENDS UP DEAD IN A VERY MYSTERIOUS PLANE DISASTER.

SO ANY CHALLENGE TO PUTIN CLEARLY IS MEETING VERY, VERY STRONG AND FORCEFUL PUSHBACK.

>> PUTIN JUST SWAPPED OUT THE DEFENSE MINISTER IN A TIME OF WAR.

WHAT WAS BEHIND THAT?

>> WELL, WE'VE SEEN RUSSIA CHANGE COMMANDERS AT NUMEROUS POINTS THROUGHOUT THIS WAR.

SERGEI SHOIGU, THE DEFENSE MINISTER, HAS NOW BEEN MOVED TO HEAD THE NATIONAL SECURITY AND DEFENSE COUNCIL.

SO HE'S HARDLY OUSTED.

IN SOME WAYS, HE'S CLOSER TO PUTIN HIMSELF.

BUT INDEED IT'S A SHAKE-UP WITHIN THE KREMLIN SECURITY LEADERSHIP.

AND PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF ENDEMIC CORRUPTION IN THE DEFENSE MINISTRY.

WE KNOW RUSSIA HAS LONG SUFFERED FROM EXTENSIVE CORRUPTION AMONG HIGH-LEVEL OFFICIALS.

NAVALNY MADE HIS NAME AS AN ANTI-CORRUPTION CRUSADER.

CURIOUSLY, THE WAR HAS SERVED AS AN ANTI-CORRUPTION TOOL IN THE SENSE THAT IT IS NOW HUGELY IMPORTANT -- THERE'S A GREAT IMPERATIVE IN RUSSIA TO MAKE SURE THAT RESOURCES DIRECTED TO THE DEFENSE MINISTRY ARE NOT STOLEN BUT, IN FACT, YIELD WEAPONS AND SOLDIERS AND UNIFORMS, ALL THE MATERIAL THAT'S NEEDED AT THE FRONT.

WE HAVE A NEW DEFENSE MINISTER WHO'S COMING IN, WHO IS ACTUALLY NOT A MILITARY GUY.

HE'S AN ECONOMIST, FORMER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT MINISTER.

I BELIEVE HIS MANDATE IN PART WILL BE TO OVERSEE AND EXERCISE SOME TIGHT CONTROL OVER A VAST INCREASE IN MILITARY SPENDING THAT PUTIN HAS AUTHORIZED TO BE SURE THAT, IN FACT, THOSE RUBLES ARE SPENT ON WEAPONS, ON THE BOMBS, ON THE SHELLS, ON THE UNIFORMS THAT ARE NEEDED TO FIGHT IN UKRAINE AND NOT LOST TO GRAFT.

>> YOU HAVE AN INCREDIBLY WELL REPORTED PIECE ON THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AND THE HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM IN RUSSIA AND HOW RADICALLY THAT'S CHANGED IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

THERE'S SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS TO MEASURE THAT.

TELL US.

>> IN THE CASE OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, WE KNOW THAT CAMPUSES CAN BE HOTBEDS OF POLITICAL ACTIVISM.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR INSTANCE, IN RESPONSE TO CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IN RUSSIA, THE RESPONSE THERE HAS BEEN FOR PRO-KREMLIN ADMINISTRATORS TO MOVE VERY RAPIDLY TO EMBRACE PUTIN'S NATIONALIST ZEAL TO SHUT DOWN HUMANITY'S PROGRAMS THAT FOCUSED ON LIBERAL ARTS, THAT ENGAGED IN PARTNERSHIPS WITH THE WEST.

THE ARTICLE LOOKS AT A PROGRAM AT ST. PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY THAT WAS EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN.

THIS WAS A PROGRAM THAT HAD BEEN RUN BY A FORMER FINANCE MINISTER, VERY CLOSE CONFIDANT OF PUTIN FOR MANY YEARS, LIBERAL ECONOMIST WHO HAD HELPED RUSSIA BUILD IN THE KIND OF BUFFERS THAT MODERN ECONOMIES NEED TO PREVENT CRISES THAT HAD TAKEN PLACE IN THE 1990s, HAD ROBBED RUSSIANS OF THEIR SAVINGS AS THE COUNTRY WENT INTO DEFAULT.

KUDRON NOT THE MOST LIBERAL IN TERMS OF POLITICS BUT HAD BEEN THE DEAN OF THIS COLLEGE, OUT.

THE COLLEGE EFFECTIVELY DISMANTLED.

COURSES ON INTERNATIONAL POLITICS, EVEN ENGLISH LANGUAGE COURSES ENDED.

PROFESSORS AND STUDENTS WHO HAD EXHIBITED ANY CRITICISM OR ANY OPPOSITION TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE, FIRED, EXPELLED, OUSTED.

AND THIS HAS HAPPENED IN OTHER PLACES, IN OTHER SCHOOLS.

MEANWHILE, PUTIN HAS PROMISED THERE WILL BE A NEW ELITE OF WORKERS AND WARRIORS.

PART OF THOSE BENEFITS ACCRUING TO THE NEW ELITE ARE PLACES IN PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES THAT HE'S NOW ALLOCATING FOR THE CHILDREN OF MILITARY VETERANS WHO HAVE FOUGHT IN UKRAINE BY PASSING SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS.

RUSSIA CAN BE A VERY COMPETITIVE PLACE, VERY RIGOROUS ACADEMIC STANDARDS.

THE DEMAND FOR GOOD GRADES AND TEST SCORES OUT THE WINDOW, AND INSTEAD BASICALLY A REWARD FOR FIGHTING IN UKRAINE.

AND PUTIN HIMSELF HAS SPOKEN ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR MILITARY VETERANS TO WORK AS TEACHERS.

IN HIS YEAR-END NEWS CONFERENCE, TWICE HE SAID WARS ARE WON BY TEACHERS.

AND HE TALKED ABOUT HIS OWN EXPERIENCE IN LAW SCHOOL AT ST. PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY, WHERE SOME OF HIS TEACHERS, HE SAID, WERE VETERANS OF WORLD WAR II, AND HOW INFLUENTIAL THEY WERE AND HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS TO BUILD THIS NATIONALIST IDEOLOGY THAT HE'S NOW TRYING TO BUILD IN THE NEW RUSSIA.

>> IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT IF VLADIMIR PUTIN WAS SUCCESSFUL IN HIS TAKEOVER OF UKRAINE, THAT HE WOULD STOP?

>> IN THE MINDS OF THE CLOSEST IN RUSSIA WATCHERS, I'M THINKING ABOUT THE BALTICS NOW, ESTONIA, LATVIA, LITHUANIA, THERE IS NO DOUBT PUTIN WILL NOT STOP IN UKRAINE.

THAT IF HE IS ABLE TO SUCCEED IN COMPLETELY DISRESPECTING INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BOUNDARIES, IF HE'S ABLE TO DERAIL UKRAINE'S SELF-DETERMINATION, ITS DESIRE TO BE A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THAT IN FACT HE WILL CONTINUE AND EXERT THAT RUSSIAN AUTHORITY, THAT RUSSIAN VIOLENCE IN OTHER PLACES AS BEST HE CAN.

WE KNOW THERE ARE RUSSIAN TROOPS STATIONED IN MOLDOVA.

WE KNOW RUSSIA IN 2008 INVADED GEORGIA.

GEORGIA EXPERIENCING MASS PROTESTS THESE DAYS OVER A RUSSIAN-STYLE FOREIGN AGENT LAW, THE SAME KIND OF LAW THAT PUTIN HAS USED TO CRACK DOWN ON POLITICAL DISSENT, ON FREE SPEECH.

SO RUSSIA'S REACH IS QUITE LONG.

AGAIN, THE LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENAL ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

WE SEE THESE THREATS AGAINST THE WEST ALL THE TIME, THAT IF IT OVERREACHES AND IN FACT INTERCEDES TOO STRONGLY IN UKRAINE, THAT RUSSIA WILL RESORT TO A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

SO FOR THE WEST, THERE IS A REAL NEED TO RECOGNIZE WHAT KIND OF CHALLENGE PUTIN IS PRESENTING, ESPECIALLY AS HE BUILDS A GENERATION, TRAINS AN ENTIRE NEW GENERATION TO SEE THE WEST AS ITS ENEMY.

THAT'S JUST THE REALITY OF RUSSIA TODAY, AND IT'S EXACTLY WHY, HARI, WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SERIES TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE RUSSIA THESE DAYS.

>> HOW DOES THAT PROPAGANDA CHANGE?

HOW DOES A 12-YEAR-OLD AT SCHOOL GET A NEW VERSION OF REALITY, A NEW HISTORY OF RUSSIA?

>> IT IS LITERALLY A REWRITING OF HISTORY AND A REWRITING OF TEXTBOOKS.

NEW TEXTBOOKS BEING ISSUED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO MINIMIZE UKRAINE AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION.

IMPORTANT FOR FOLKS TO REMEMBER THAT EVEN DURING SOVIET TIMES, UKRAINE HAD ITS OWN SEAT IN THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE SOVIET REPUBLIC OF UKRAINE WAS REGARDED AS INDEPENDENT ENOUGH TO HAVE ITS OWN SEAT THERE AS DID WHAT IS NOW BELARUS.

IN FACT, THE TEXTBOOKS, THE HISTORY LESSONS ARE BEING REWRITTEN TO MAKE IT OUT AS IF UKRAINE WAS ALWAYS JUST SOME PART OF RUSSIA.

AND AS YOU KNOW, THIS ARGUMENT HAS FOUND SOME CURRENCY IN THE UNITED STATES, INCLUDING IN THE CONGRESS, THIS IDEA THAT RUSSIA IS, YOU KNOW, EXERTING ITS PROPER AUTHORITY OVER A SPHERE OF INFLUENCE RATHER THAN UNDERSTANDING THAT, IN FACT, UKRAINE HAS ITS OWN, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF YEARS HISTORY AND ITS OWN DESIRE TO LIVE AS A FREE, DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

IF THERE IS THAT DEMOCRATIC MODEL NEXT DOOR, THERE IS NO REASON WHY RUSSIA ITSELF SHOULD NOT BE DEMOCRATIC AND FREE.

I'VE LIVED IN RUSSIA.

I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY WAS POSSIBLE IN RUSSIA AND IS STILL POSSIBLE IN RUSSIA.

THERE IS NO REASON WHY ONE MAN HAS TO RULE THAT COUNTRY AS HE HAS FOR A QUARTER CENTURY, CIRCUMVENTING ALL OF THE TERM LIMITS, AND HAVING A DEMOCRATIC UKRAINE WOULD PROVE THAT POINT.

>> IS THE POINT TO BREAK INTERNATIONAL LAW?

I MEAN DOES THAT HELP WITH PUTIN'S OWN CREDIBILITY OF TRYING TO BUILD A RUSSIA THAT MAKES ITS OWN RULES?

>> THAT MAKES ITS OWN RULES, INDEED.

THAT IGNORES INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS OR PRESENTS THOSE INSTITUTIONS AS BANKRUPT, AS BEHOLDEN TO THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER THAT'S THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, WHICH HAS ISSUED AN ARREST WARRANT FOR PUTIN ON WAR CRIMES RELATED TO THE ILLEGAL RELOCATION, ILLEGAL DEPORTATION OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN.

WHETHER THAT'S THE U.N. ITSELF, WHICH WE KNOW FOR A LONG TIME RUSSIA HAS USED THE SECURITY COUNCIL, SOMETIMES ALLIED WITH CHINA, SOMETIMES ON ITS OWN, TAKEN THAT VETO TO PREVENT ACTION ON MANY IMPORTANT TOPICS AROUND THE WORLD.

NO QUESTION RUSSIA IS SHOWING ITS DESIRE TO RETURN AS A GREAT POWER ON THE WORLD STAGE, BUT NOT JUST IN THE WORLD AS IT EXISTS, BUT IN A WORLD THAT IS A BIT RETROGRADE, DIVIDED BACK UP INTO SPHERES OF INFLUENCE AMONG GREAT POWERS.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN WIDESPREAD AND WELL-DOCUMENTED REPORTS OF KIDNAPPINGS THAT HAVE BEEN HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, WHERE THOSE CHILDREN ARE ESSENTIALLY PUT UP FOR ADOPTION INSIDE RUSSIA.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT?

>> WELL, THERE'S A MYTHOLOGY THAT'S BEEN CREATED AROUND THIS INVASION.

SEVERAL, IN FACT.

ONE IS OF COURSE THAT RUSSIA IS IN THIS EXISTENTIAL FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL AGAINST THE WEST.

THE OTHER IS THAT RUSSIA IS EASTERN UKRAINE, WHO ARE BEING PERSECUTED, WHO ARE UNDER ATTACK.

I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT EVEN WITH MY BAD AMERICAN ACCENT, IT WAS POSSIBLE TO SPEAK IN RUSSIAN FROM ONE SIDE OF UKRAINE TO THE OTHER WITHOUT ONE BAD LOOK.

THAT WAS BEFORE THE BIG INVASION.

NOW OF COURSE A LOT MORE PRIDE BEING TAKEN IN SPEAKING UKRAINIAN, IN SEPARATING UKRAINE FROM RUSSIA BECAUSE IT IS BOMBING AND DESTROYING UKRAINIAN CITIES, KILLING THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS.

IN THE CASE OF THESE CHILDREN, SOME OF THEM, AGAIN, IT'S A MATTER OF BUILDING THIS NEW GENERATION, CONVINCING THEM.

AND WE'VE SEEN THE CHILD RIGHTS COMMISSIONER, WHO ALONG WITH PUTIN HAS FACED AN ARREST WARRANT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, DESCRIBING HOW SHE, HERSELF, ADOPTED A UKRAINIAN ORPHAN, TOOK HIM IN AND HAD TO RETRAIN HIM ESSENTIALLY TO LOVE RUSSIA, TO REPROGRAM HIM TO NOT THINK OF UKRAINE AS HIS HOME.

QUITE CHILLING, SOME OF THESE STORIES THAT WE'VE HEARD FROM CHILDREN WHO HAVE ESCAPED, WHO HAVE GOTTEN BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES IN UKRAINE, WHO HAVE MANAGED A LONG, CIRCUITOUS ROUT TO GET THERE.

THIS IS PART OF THIS EFFORT TO ESSENTIALLY PROVE THERE IS A GREATER RUSSIA.

THERE IS NO INDEPENDENT UKRAINE.

PUTIN HAS DESCRIBED THAT IN PUBLIC INTERVIEWS, THIS VIEW THAT UKRAINE HAS JUST ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF -- A SMALL PART, APPENDAGE OF RUSSIA, AND THAT IN FACT RUSSIA SHOULD REASSERT ITS INFLUENCE, SEIZING THESE TERRITORIES, FOUR REGIONS IN ADDITION TO CRIMEA THAT HE'S INTENT ON ANNEXING, HE'S DECLARED TO BE ANNEXED IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND THE RELOCATION OF CHILDREN IS JUST PART AND PARCEL OF THAT, PRETENDING AS IF THEY'RE BEING RESCUED IN SOME WAY.

>> WHAT DOES PUTIN WANT TO BE SEEN AS?

>> WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY BEEN A RENEWAL OF STALIN WORSHIP, ONE MIGHT CALL IT, A RESUSCITATION OF THE IMAGE OF THE BRUTAL COMMUNIST DICTATORS, SENT MILLIONS TO THE GULAG, RESPONSIBLE FOR UNTOLD NUMBERS OF DEATHS AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAD DOCUMENTED THOSE CRIMES IS NOW OUTLAWED AND SHUT DOWN IN RUSSIA.

IT WAS A CO-RECIPIENT OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

SO, INDEED, THERE'S AN EFFORT TO RESUSCITATE THE IMAGE OF STALIN, AND PUTIN WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIMSELF PERHAPS AS A CROSS OF STALIN AND PETER THE GREAT, THE MODERN CZAR.

I THINK YOU PUT IT AS MAKING RUSSIA GREAT AGAIN.

HE WILL BE THE LEADER WHO RESTORED RUSSIA TO A LEVEL OF POWER AND INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD THAT IT LOST WHEN HE WAS A KGB AGENT STATIONED IN EAST GERMANY, IN DRESDEN.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF BIOGRAPHIES THAT HAVE DESCRIBED THIS, PUTIN CALLING MOSCOW AS THE SOVIET UNION WAS CRUMBLING AND MOSCOW BEING SILENT.

HE HAD VOWED UNDER HIS WAGE, MOSCOW WILL NEVER BE SILENT.

IN FACT, IT WILL BE THE OPPOSITE.

IT WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN ANSWER TO ANY CHALLENGE, AND THIS IS WHAT WE SEE IN THIS INCREDIBLE TRANSFORMATION THAT'S GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

>> DAVID HERSZENHORN, THE RUSSIA AND UKRAINE EDITOR FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST," THE SERIES IS CALLED "RUSSIA REMASTER THE."

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, THE AUTHOR TRYING TO BREAK A CYCLE OF PAIN WITH A CHILDREN'S BOOK.

THE HORRORS OF CONFLICT CAN BE IMPOSSIBLE TO BROACH WITH THE YOUNG, AND THERE'S OFTEN THE INSTINCT OF PARENTS TO SHIELD THEIR KIDS FROM TRAUMA, LIKE THE ONE ENGULFING ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS RIGHT NOW.

BUT MY NEXT GUEST THINKS A DIFFERENT APPROACH IS NECESSARY WITH A KIDS BOOK ABOUT ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

WRITER AND RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR REZA ASLAN AIMS TO OPEN THE DOOR TO UNDERSTANDING THE CONFLICT AND IMAGINING THE PATH TO PEACE.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM LOS ANGELES.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, REZA.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GREAT TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, IT JUST SEEMS TO BE SUCH A DARING THING TO DO RIGHT NOW, TO WRITE A CHILDREN'S BOOK ABOUT THE HOTTEST CONFLICT.

WELL, OBVIOUSLY RUSSIA AND UKRAINE AS WELL.

BUT ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT ONES TO BROACH AND TO THINK ABOUT.

SO JUST TELL ME WHY YOU DID IT AND WHO ACTUALLY YOU'RE TARGETING.

>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, OVER THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS OF THIS CONFLICT, SINCE THE ATTACKS OF OCTOBER 7th, WHICH LED TO THE DEATH OF 1,300 ISRAELIS, INCLUDING 33 CHILDREN, SOME 14,000 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.

THAT'S MORE CHILDREN THAN IN ALL THE OTHER GLOBAL CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD SINCE 2019.

AND WHEN YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, CONFRONTED WITH THAT KIND OF DEVASTATION, THAT KIND OF HORROR, I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY AS PARENTS WE WANT TO SHIELD OUR CHILDREN FROM IT.

BUT I TRULY DO BELIEVE AS A PARENT OF FOUR CHILDREN MYSELF, THAT THIS CONFLICT IS ACTUALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH OUR KIDS AND GIVE THEM THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO CULTIVATE COMPASSION AND EMPATHY, CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS BECAUSE, YES, THIS WAR HAS BEEN DEVASTATING FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

BUT CHILDREN ALL AROUND THE WORLD, INCLUDING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE ALSO BEEN IMPACTED BY THIS CONFLICT.

THEY'RE INUNDATED WITH THESE IMAGES OF DESTRUCTION AND DESPAIR.

IT'S UNAVOIDABLE, CHRISTIANE.

AND AS PARENTS, I GET IT.

MOST OF US FEEL LIKE WE OURSELVES BARELY UNDERSTAND THIS CONFLICT.

I DO IT FOR A LIVING, AND I BARELY UNDERSTAND IT.

AND SO WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS PROVIDE A TEXT THAT WOULD ALLOW CAREGIVERS, PARENTS TO HAVE THE MEANINGFUL CONVERSATIONS NECESSARY WITH THEIR CHILDREN THAT COULD GIVE THEM CONTEXT, A SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE IN THIS CONFLICT, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO COUNTER SOME OF THE STEREOTYPES AND THE PREJUDICES THAT ARE JUST FLOODING THEM FROM ALL SIDES.

>> MM-HMM.

REZA, THIS IS YOUR FIRST CHILDREN'S BOOK, AND YOU'VE WRITTEN MANY, MANY BOOKS, YOU KNOW, ABOUT THAT REGION SPECIFICALLY -- POLITICALLY, RELIGIOUSLY, ET CETERA.

AND YOU'RE WELL-KNOWN FOR IT.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO SETS OF CHILDREN, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, AS YOUR TITLE SAYS, WHO HAVE BEEN RAISED ON COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIETS AND NARRATIVES ABOUT THE OTHER.

WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE TO PUT INTO THIS BOOK TO SHOW THAT THERE ARE TWO SIDES WHO ARE HUMAN, TWO SIDES WHO ARE VICTIMS, TWO SIDES WHO NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE STORY OF THE OTHER?

HOW DID YOU CHOOSE THE ANECDOTES OR THE HISTORICAL FACTS TO PUT IN THE BOOK?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND I'LL BE HONEST.

IT WAS NOT EASY.

AS YOU RIGHTLY NOTE, THERE ARE TWO PARALLEL NATIONAL NARRATIVES HERE, AND SO OFTEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EITHER ONE OF THESE NARRATIVES, WE NECESSARILY ERASE THE OTHER ONE.

IT BECOMES VERY HARD TO TALK ABOUT THE SUFFERING AND THE OPPRESSION THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE EXPERIENCED WITHOUT NEGATING THE ISRAELI NARRATIVE AND THE SEEKING OF PEACE AND SECURITY, ET CETERA, AND VICE VERSA.

SO THE REAL CHALLENGE HERE WAS, CAN WE PROVIDE A FACTUAL OPINION-LESS HISTORY OF THIS CONFLICT THAT LAYS OUT BOTH SIDES, BOTH NARRATIVES, AND THEN TO CHALLENGE CHILDREN TO SIMPLY BE ABLE TO SEE BOTH SIDES?

CAN THEY WALK IN BOTH SHOES, IF YOU WILL, BECAUSE IF THEY CAN, AS I EXPLAIN IN THE BOOK, THAT'S A KIND OF SUPERPOWER.

IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE THE EMPATHY AND THE COMPASSION, THE CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS NECESSARY TO BECOME THE GENERATION THAT CAN ADVOCATE FOR PEACE IN THIS CONFLICT.

YOU KNOW, CHILDREN -- I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO REALIZE HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAINTAIN VERY COMPLEX IDEAS IN THEIR MINDS.

SOMETIMES CONFLICTING IDEAS, SOMETIMES CONTRADICTORY IDEAS.

AND AS LONG AS THESE ISSUES ARE BROUGHT TO THEM IN AN AGE-APPROPRIATE WAY, AS THE BOOK TRIES TO DO, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO GRAPPLE WITH WHAT WE THINK OF AS PERHAPS THINGS THAT ARE INAPPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN.

BUT, AGAIN, WE LIVE IN A WORLD IN WHICH INSULATING OUR CHILDREN FROM THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD, WHETHER IT'S ISRAEL/PALESTINE OR WHETHER IT'S UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, OR WHETHER IT'S ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, THAT'S JUST SIMPLY NOT FEASIBLE ANY LONGER.

SO WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO BE ABLE TO NAVIGATE THOSE COMPLEXITIES, TO BECOME THE GENERATION THAT CAN ACTUALLY ADVOCATE FOR A LASTING PEACE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

>> AND YOU SAID THE ONLY WAY WE'LL EVER BE ABLE TO DO THAT AND TO BRIDGE THE DIVIDE IS TO UNDERSTAND BOTH VERSIONS OF THE STORY.

AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT THIS BOOK IS NOT JUST TO BE READ BY KIDS BUT BY PARENTS TO THEIR KIDS OR WITH THEIR KIDS.

>> YES.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT'S SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO ALLOW PARENTS TO FILL IN THE EMPTY SPACES OF THIS NARRATIVE, IF YOU WILL, WITH THEIR OWN IDEAS, THEIR OWN VALUES, THEIR OWN MORALS.

REALLY WHAT THE BOOK DOES IS IT PROVIDES A FOUNDATION, A CONTEXT, THE HISTORICAL INFORMATION NECESSARY TO LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN THIS PRESENT CONFLICT AND TO TALK ABOUT IT IN TERMS THAT FAMILIES, THEMSELVES, FIND TO BE APPROPRIATE.

THERE'S A WHOLE HOST OF AFTER-QUESTIONS IN THE BOOK, OPPORTUNITIES TO CREATE PRECISELY THE SAFE SPACE NECESSARY SO THAT CAREGIVERS AND CHILDREN CAN HAVE THIS LARGER CONVERSATION.

AND REALLY IF THAT'S ALL THAT HAPPENS, IF ALL THIS BOOK FOSTERS IS AN OPPORTUNITY, THE SPACE NECESSARY FOR PARENTS, CAREGIVERS, AND CHILDREN TO HAVE MEANINGFUL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT ISSUES AROUND THE WORLD, THEN THAT'S ENOUGH.

>> YOU KNOW, REZA, AS YOU KNOW AND AS WE ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, REPORT ON, THERE IS A VERY TROUBLED HISTORY OF SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS IN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORY.

SO ISRAELI ALWAYS ACCUSES TEXTBOOKS OF, YOU KNOW, FALSIFYING HISTORY, PROMOTING HATE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE KNOW THAT IN ISRAELI SCHOOLS, CHILDREN ARE NOT TAUGHT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 1948, ET CETERA.

SO BOTH SIDES, BOTH CHILDREN AND BOTH GENERATIONS ARE GROWING UP WITH A DISTORTED VIEW OF THE OTHER.

IS THIS BOOK ALSO FOR CHILDREN THERE?

DO YOU THINK THAT GULF CAN BE SOMEWHAT BRIDGED OR BLURRED?

>> WELL, AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK, I GAVE IT TO A NUMBER OF ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN FRIENDS AND REALLY ENCOURAGED THEM TO GIVE ME THEIR THOUGHTS, THEIR IDEAS, WAYS IN WHICH THE LANGUAGE THAT I USED COULD BE MORE ACCESSIBLE TO BOTH SIDES.

AND SO THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I REALLY WAS FOCUSED ON.

BUT IF I'M GOING TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST WITH YOU, THIS BOOK IS NOT SO MUCH FOR THOSE STAKEHOLDERS BECAUSE THEY ARE LIVING THE REALITY OF THIS CONFLICT EVERY DAY.

REALLY IT'S FOR ALL OF THE ADULTS AND THE CHILDREN IN THIS MUDDY MIDDLE WHO ARE CONSTANTLY BOMBARDED WITH INFORMATION, A LOT OF IT MISINFORMATION, PREJUDICES, STEREOTYPES ABOUT ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

THESE IMAGES THAT ARE BECOMING INCREASINGLY IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID REGARDLESS OF WHERE IN THE WORLD ONE LIVES, AND WHO REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK ABOUT THIS CONFLICT AND ARE JUST LOOKING FOR SOME KIND OF GROUNDWORK, IF YOU WILL, SOME CONTEXT, SOME ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT TO THE PLACE WHERE WE ARE TODAY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A CONFLICT THAT BEGAN ON OCTOBER 7th.

EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT.

THIS IS AN INTRACTABLE, DECADES-LONG CONFLICT THAT ISN'T ABOUT RELIGION.

IT'S NOT EVEN REALLY ABOUT POLITICS.

IT'S ABOUT THINGS THAT CHILDREN UNDERSTAND.

>> MM-HMM.

>> SHARING, JUSTICE, FAIRNESS.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOUR KIDS GET AT A DEEP, VISCERAL LEVEL.

AND SO JUST SIMPLY LAYING OUT THE CONFLICT FOR THEM AND THEN GIVING THEM, ALONG WITH THEIR PARENTS AND CAREGIVERS, THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEIR VALUES OF SHARING AND FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE CAN BE APPLIED TO THIS CONFLICT IS AN INCREDIBLY VALUABLE INSIGHT.

>> SO I WONDER, BECAUSE I NOTE THAT YOU DO NOT INCLUDE THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th OR THE WAR IN GAZA THAT HAS FOLLOWED, AND THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A SPECIFIC CHOICE.

BUT HAVE YOU HAD, NONETHELESS, BACKLASH AT ALL?

HAVE YOU FOUND PUSHBACK FOR YOUR ATTEMPTS AND FOR THIS BOOK?

>> YEAH, CHRISTIANE.

AS YOU KNOW, I WRITE ABOUT RELIGION AND POLITICS FOR A LIVING, SO I GET YELLED AT A LOT BY EVERY SIDE IN ALMOST ANY CONFLICT.

AND THAT'S BEEN THE CASE HERE AS WELL.

ONE THING THAT I WILL SAY THAT'S BEEN KIND OF ENCOURAGING FOR ME IS THAT, YOU KNOW, OFTENTIMES I WILL HEAR FROM ONE SIDE THAT THE BOOK IS TOO FAIR TO THE OTHER OR VICE VERSA, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE THAT MEANS THAT I MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

LOOK, GROWN-UPS, WE HAVE -- OUR BRAINS HAVE OSSIFIED, IF YOU WILL.

YOU KNOW, THOSE PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS THAT WE HAVE, THOSE OPINIONS, THOSE IDEAS THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED OVER A LIFETIME, THEY'VE KIND OF STUCK THEMSELVES IN OUR BRAINS.

BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW, WHAT RESEARCH HAS SHOWN US, IS THAT KIDS DON'T THINK IN THOSE TERMS.

AND SO I GET THAT SOMETIMES ISN'T FAIR TO THEIR VIEW OR IT'S TOO FAIR TO THE OTHER SIDE, OR MAYBE IT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE OTHER FRANKLY QUITE COMPLEX ISSUES.

BUT IT'S NOT MEANT FOR GROWN-UPS.

IT'S MEANT FOR CHILDREN IN CONVERSATION WITH GROWN-UPS.

THAT'S WHY IT WAS WRITTEN IN SUCH A WAY FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO NOT JUST UNDERSTAND IT IN A RATIONAL WAY, BUT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND IT IN AN EMOTIONAL WAY.

AS I SAY, THIS MAY BE ONE OF THE MOST COMPLEX ISSUES IN THE WORLD, BUT KIDS HAVE THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS FAIR AND WHAT IS RIGHT.

>> REZA ASLAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AUTHOR OF "A KIDS BOOK ABOUT ISRAEL & PALESTINE."

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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