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♪♪ ♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> ALARM OVER GETTING AID INTO GAZA AS THE ICC'S PURSUIT OF ARREST WARRANTS REVERBERATE, HISTORIAN MOVAL NOA HARARI JOINS ME ON WHETHER THERE CAN EVER BE PEACE WITH THE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.
>> MY JOB IS TO SHOW PEOPLE THE BEAUTY OF BETHLEHEM.
>> BETHLEHEM, A CELEBRATION OF PALESTINIAN FOOD.
WHY IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER TO CHEF FADI KATTAN AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT HIS HOMELAND.
ALSO AHEAD -- >> YOU SEE IN THE 1870s, 1880s THE EMERGENCE OF REALLY FIRST REAL EXAMPLE OF TERRORISM.
>> THE INFERNAL MACHINE.
HOW THE NEW YORK POLICE STOPPED A WAVE OF EXTREMIST VIOLENCE A CENTURY AGO.
AUTHOR STEVE JOHNSON SPEAKS WITH WALTER ISAACSON.
♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLESHNE.
SETON J. MELVIN.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
RIGHT AFTER THE ICC CITED UNLAWFUL OBSTRUCTION OF HUMANITARIAN AID IN ITS REQUEST FOR ARREST WARRANT AGAINST THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER AND DEFENSE MINISTER, A SENIOR U.N. OFFICIAL WARNS IT'S GETTING EVEN MORE DIFFICULT TO TRANSPORT FOOD AND SUPPLIES WITHIN THE ENCLAVE SAYING WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF WORDS TO DESCRIBE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA.
MEANWHILE, THE HEAD OF THE KAMAL ADWAN HOSPITAL IN NORTHERN GAZA SAID THE IDF WANTS TO FORCE IT SHUT AND ONE SHELL HAS LANDED IN THE RECEPTION AND EMERGENCY AREA.
THESE PICTURES ARE SHOWING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO FLEE.
THE ICC ACTION TARGETING BOTH ISRAELI AND HAMAS LEADERS FOR WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY HAS PROMPTED FURIOUS CONDEMNATION FROM ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES.
BUT FRANCE AND BELGIUM HAVE BROKEN WITH THOSE ALLIES BY SUPPORTING THE COURT, BACKING ITS INDEPENDENCE AND THE FIGHT AND RIGHT AGAINST IMPUNITY IN ALL SITUATIONS.
BEST-SELLING AUTHOR NOAH HARARI HAS BEEN THINKING DEEPLY ABOUT HIS HOMELAND AND EVEN THE POSSIBILITY OF PEACE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS ASKING IN AN OP ED IS THERE A WAY OUT OF THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN TRAP?
NOAH HARARI, IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON THIS PROGRAM, FRANKLY ANY PROGRAM BECAUSE YOU ARE A BIG THINKER AND YOU HELP US NAVIGATE AREAS.
FIRST, I HAVE TO ASK YOU, AS AN ISRAELI, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE ICC REQUEST FOR WARRANTS?
>> IT'S DEEPLY SHAMEFUL FOR THE CITIZEN OF ANY COUNTRY WHEN THE LEADER IS EVEN ACCUSED OF SUCH CRIMES AND I THINK ON A BROADER PERSPECTIVE, I KNOW THAT A LOT OF ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE ICC OF MAKING COMPARISONS BETWEEN NETANYAHU AND SINWAR AND SO FORTH.
THIS IS REALLY A SPIN.
THE QUESTION IS NOT THE COMPARISON.
THE QUESTION IS THE ALLEGATIONS AND THE THAT BACKS THEM AND THE OTHER THING LOOKING AT THE WHOLE EPISODE, THE WHOLE ISSUE FROM A BROAD PERSPECTIVE IS WHETHER WE WOULD LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE LEADERS ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO INTERNATIONAL LAW OR NOT, WHETHER WE WOULD LIKE TO LIVE IN AN ORDERLY WORLD, A WORLD OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, BUT HERE, THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER REALLY HAS TWO MAIN GOALS.
THE PRIMARY GOAL IS TO PREVENT WARS FROM HAPPENING.
THE SECONDARY GOAL IS TO MITIGATE WARS IF THEY HAPPEN BY PROVIDING HUMANITARIAN AID AND PUNISHING CRIMES, BUT IF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER IS NOT ABLE TO ACHIEVE THE PRIMARY GOAL OF PREVENTING WAR, THEN THE SECONDARY GOAL IS ULTIMATELY HOPELESS.
IF MORE AND MORE WARS ERUPT THEN JUST TRYING TO PUNISH CRIMES AND PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IT WON'T WORK.
>> WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE GIVEN THAT WAR IS SO AWFUL AND THAT THERE ARE LAWS OF WAR AND THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME ASSISTANCE PROVIDED TO THOSE WHO, YOU KNOW, DO IT UNDER INTER -- WHAT IS THE OPTION?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
OF COURSE, WE NEED TO DO IT.
OF COURSE, WE NEED TO PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE AND TO HOLD LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE, BUT THIS IS SUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG RUN ONLY IF IT'S POSSIBLE ALSO TO ACHIEVE THE PRIMARY AIM OF PREVENTING WARS BECAUSE OTHERWISE, IF YOU REACH A WORLD, IF THE GLOBAL ORDER THAT WE HAVE BEEN USED TO IN RECENT DECADES COLLAPSES AND WE SEE MORE AND MORE WARS ERUPTING AROUND THE WORLD THEN THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE WILL ALSO COLLAPSE.
>> I MEAN, IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT MOMENT AND THERE SEEMS TO BE SO MANY SIGNIFICANT WARS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME RIGHT NOW CHALLENGING THE WORLD ORDER THAT WE THOUGHT WAS HERE TO, YOU KNOW, TO STAY AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT EVIDENCE AS OPPOSED TO EQUIVALENCE OF PEOPLE AND ALLEGED PERPETRATORS.
THAT'S WHAT THE PROSECUTOR TOLD ME IN THE INTERVIEW YESTERDAY, AND HE SAID OUR MANDATE IS NOT TO -- IS SOLELY FOCUSED ON PUTTING VICTIMS ON THE SAME LEVEL AND THIS IS ABOUT THE EQUIVALENCE OF VICTIMS AND NOT THE ALLEGED PERPETRATORS.
BE THAT AS IT MAY, ISRAEL HAS A MECHANISM AND IT IS A DEMOCRACY AND IT'S DONE THIS IN THE PAST AND IT'S INVESTIGATED POST-WAR SITUATIONS IN MANY OF THE WARS THAT YOUR COUNTRY HAS FOUGHT AND THIS PROSECUTOR HAS SAID THAT HE'S TRIED TO GET ISRAEL TO HOLD ITSELF ACCOUNTABLE.
IT HASN'T DONE IT.
WOULD IT HAVE BEEN BETTER IF HE DID?
>> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER, BUT AGAIN, THE NETANYAHU COALITION HAS BEEN WEAKENING THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE ISRAELI COURT AND HAS BEEN ATTACKING ISRAELI COURTS FOR A LONG TIME NOW.
SO I DON'T THINK THAT THE ISRAELI COURT SYSTEM IS NOW IN A POSITION TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
>> THAT'S A PRETTY DIRE SENTENCE.
DO YOU THINK IT EVER WILL?
PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF INVESTIGATION LIKE AFTER THE 1973 WAR, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
EVEN AFTER THE 2006 HEZBOLLAH WAR.
>> I HOPE THERE WILL BE.
AGAIN, I'VE BEEN PART OF THE STRUGGLE TO KEEP THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE ISRAELI JUSTICE SYSTEM AND TO PRESERVE ISRAELI DEMOCRAT SEE FOR MORE THAN A YEAR NOW AND PEOPLE ARE STILL STRUGGLING IN THE STREETS, AND I HOPE THAT WE WILL SUCCEED.
LET'S MOVE ON BECAUSE WHAT YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ADMITTEDLY JUST BEFORE THE ACTIONS BY THE ICC YESTERDAY, THERE WERE ELEMENTS OF HOPE, AND I WOULDN'T MIND ASKING YOU RIGHT OFF WHY YOU -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S TALK ABOUT OCTOBER 7th AND THE WAR IN GAZA.
YOU SAID IT SHOWED AND REVEALED THE WORST FEARS AND NIGHTMARES OF BOTH ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS AND LET'S TAKE IT FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE FIRST.
>> WHAT IS CRUCIAL TO REALIZE ABOUT THIS CONFLICT IS THAT BOTH SIDES ARE TERRIFIED DEEP DOWN THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS TRYING TO EXTERMINATE THEM TO EXPEL AND KILL EVERY MEMBER OF THE GROUP, OF THE JEWS OR THE PALESTINIANS AND THE TRAGEDY IS THAT BOTH SIDES ARE RIGHT.
BOTH SIDES HAVE GOOD REASON TO SUSPECT THAT THEIR EXISTENCE IS AT STAKE, THAT IF THE OTHER SIDE WILL EVER GET THE OPPORTUNITY THEY WILL TRY TO COMPLETELY GET RID OF US.
NOT NECESSARILY KILL EACH AND EVERY PERSON, BUT CERTAINLY EXPEL THEM, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE TEND TO SEE THE CONFLICT FROM JUST ONE SIDE, AND THE KEY THING IS TO REALIZE THAT BOTH SIDES ARE RIGHT IN THE DEEPEST FEARS, AND THE PATH FORWARD TOWARDS A REAL SOLUTION TO THE CONFLICT IS ONLY WHEN EACH SIDE CAN SAY HONESTLY ABOUT ITSELF EVEN IF WE GET THE OPPORTUNITY DOWN THE ROAD IN TEN YEARS OR 20 YEARS OR 40 YEARS, WE WILL NOT TRY EXTERMINATE THE OTHER SIDE.
WE RECOGNIZE OUR SHARED HUMANITY.
WE RECOGNIZE THAT THEY ARE ALSO A PEOPLE DESERVING OF RIGHTS INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION, AND THIS SOUNDS SO OBVIOUS YET SO MANY PEOPLE NOT ONLY IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE UNABLE FOR SOME REASON TO HOLD THIS SIMPLE THOUGHT THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE -- THERE IS A PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION AND THEY HAVE A DEEP HISTORICAL CONNECTION TO THE LAND BETWEEN THE MEDITERRANEAN AND THE JORDAN RIVER AND AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS A JEWISH PEOPLE.
IT HAS A RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION AND EACH TWO HAS A VERY DEEP CONNECTION TO THE SAME LAND.
THIS IS JUST A REALITY.
>> ACTUALLY, THEY ALSO TALK ABOUT THE RIVER TO THE SEA, AND THIS STATEMENT HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED AND -- YOU KNOW.
>> BOTH SIDES WEAPONIZE IT WITHOUT REALIZING THAT THEY ARE GUILTY OF THE SAME THING, THAT EACH SIDE WANTS EVERYTHING AND IS UNWILLING TO COMPROMISE AND ON EACH SIDE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO COMPROMISE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THEY ARE NOT THE ONES GUIDING AT THE MOMENT, AND YOU KNOW, IT'S ALSO WEAPONIZED IN THE UK, IN THE USA.
I HEAR ALL OF THIS ANTI-ZIONIST PROPAGANDA THAT PEOPLE, KUWAIT ZIONISM WITH RACISM.
ZIONISM IS SIMPLY THE TERM FOR JEWISH NATIONALISM.
IT'S THE SIMPLE IDEA THAT THE JEWS CONSTITUTE A PEOPLE, A NATION AND AS SUCH THEY HAVE NOT JUST INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND ALSO A COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.
THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT ZIONISM ESSENTIALLY SAYS, IT SHOULD BE UNCONTROVERTIBLE, AND IT DOESN'T IMPLY NECESSARILY THAT THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN NATION OR THAT THE PALESTINIANS DON'T HAVE RIGHTS.
YOU CAN AT THE SAME TIME ADMIT THAT THEIS ILRAIS HAVE RIGHTS AND THE PALESTINIANS HAVE RIGHTS.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT BELIEVES THE SECOND PART.
THEY TALK ABOUT THE EREZ AND -- >> THE NETANYAHU COALITION DOESN'T ACCEPT IT.
THEY THINK THAT THE DEMONSTRATORS ARE CHANTING FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE AND ALSO THE NETANYAHU COALITION SAYS FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA IT ALL BELONGS ONLY TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
IT HAS AN INALIENABLE AND EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO THE ENTIRE LAND, AND YOU HAVE MAXIMALISTS ON EITHER SIDE AND THEY WILL CONTROL IT.
>> I WANT TO INTERESTINGLY, AND WE OFTEN DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE 2 MILLION OR SO PALESTINIANS, ARABS INSIDE ISRAEL WHO ARE ISRAELI CITIZENS WHO, AS YOU SAY ARE NOT BUSY CALLING FOR THE EXTINCTION OR ERADICATION OF ANYBODY.
TELL ME ABOUT THEM AND DO THEY STILL CURRENTLY IN THIS ENVIRONMENT HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE OR HAVE SHOWN UP FOR THEIR NEIGHBORS AT THIS TIME BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH HOW NONE OF THE PALESTINIANS HAVE COMMISERATED WITH ISRAEL OR THE JEWISH ISRAELIS AFTER OCTOBER 7th, BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE.
I THINK PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS AND THERE ARE 2 MILLION ISRAELIS ARE THE MOST HOPEFUL GROUP IN THE REGION.
THEY FEEL THAT THEY BELONG TO BOTH SIDES IN SOME SENSE EVEN THOUGH THEY SUFFERED FROM DISCRIMINATION FOR DECADES.
THEY ARE ALSO CITIZENS OF ISRAEL WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE, TO THE KNESSET, TO THE PARLIAMENT AND ON OCTOBER 7th ONE OF THE HOPES OF HAMAS WAS THAT THIS GROUP OF 2 MILLION PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS WILL RISE AGAINST THE JEWISH NEIGHBORS AND ALSO TRY TO MASSACRE JEWS AND SO FORTH AND THERE WAS FEAR AMONG THE JEWS THAT IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND THEY'RE COMING TO KILL US AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
ON THAT DAY YOU SAW THAT PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS ARE COMING TO HELP THE JEWISH NEIGHBORS QUITE A NUMBER OF PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS WERE MURDERED BY HAMAS WHILE TRYING TO, FOR INSTANCE, RESCUE SURVIVORS AT THE NOVA MUSIC FESTIVAL AND OTHER MASSACRES.
THERE ARE PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS TO GAZA AND HELD THERE AND THE TWO MOST PROMINENT LEADERS OF PALESTINIAN, ISRAELI POLITICS AND ISRAEL AND AYMAN UDEH, THEY BOTH FLATLY CONDEMNED THE MASSACRE AND THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE OR OF ISLAM.
THEY ARE STILL COMMITTED TO PEACE, AND I THINK AGAIN LOOKING AT THEM, THEY ARE THE MOST -- THE GROUP THAT GIVES THE MOST HOPE IN THE REGION THAT YES, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT CAN HOLD TWO THOUGHTS AT THE SAME TIME, BE WITH PALESTINIAN ISRAELIS AND BE IN FAVOR OF FULFILLING THE RIGHT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WITHOUT, TERMINATING THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
>> SO TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU SAID THEY FILL FACE DISCRIMINATION.
CLEARLY THEY WANT THAT, SO HOW COULD THEY PLAY A ROLE IN WHAT YOU SEEM TO THINK IS POSSIBLE, MAYBE NOT RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT THERE MUST BE A WAY TO GET TO PEACE AND GET OUT OF THIS TRAP, AS YOU SAY.
>> MY BEST ADVICE WOULD BE TO INVITE THEM HERE AND LET THEM STATE THEIR VIEWS AND THEY CAN DO IT MUCH BETTER THAN ME, BUT THEY STATED MANY TIMES QUITE CLEARLY THEIR SUPPORT FOR SOME VERSION OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
IT'S STILL BASICALLY THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.
IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS AN ISRAELI NATION WITH THE RIGHTEOUS SELF-DETERMINATION AND A PALESTINE WITH RIGHTEOUS SELF-DETERMINATION AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHTS OF BOTH PEOPLE.
SOME PEOPLE SAY NO, WE'LL HAVE THE ONE STATE WHICH WILL BE, YOU KNOW, THIS DEMOCRATIC JEWISH PALESTINIAN STATE PROVIDING RIGHTS AND EQUALITY FOR EVERYBODY.
IT SOUNDS LIKE A NICE DREAM.
THE PROBLEM WITH THE HISTORY IS OFTEN RESISTANT TO MERE THEORY IS TO DREAMS AND MANY THINGS THAT SOUND VERY GOOD IN THEORY, ON PAPER WHEN YOU TRY TO IMPLEMENT THEM IT CAN LEAD TO TRAGEDY.
SO MAYBE DOWN THE ROAD IT WILL BE POSSIBLE, BUT GIVEN THE LEVELS OF HATRED, VIOLENCE AND FEAR, I DON'T THINK THIS IS A FEASIBLE SOLUTION IN THE NEAR FUTURE, AT LEAST.
>> YOU'VE SAID ABOUT THE FUTURE, THERE'S ENOUGH LAND BETWEEN THE JORDAN AND THE MEDITERRANEAN TO BUILD HOUSES, SCHOOLS, ROADS, HOSPITALS FOR EVERYONE, BUT IT CAN BE REALIZED ONLY IF EACH SIDE CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT EVEN IF IT HAD UNLIMITED POWER AND RESTRICTIONS, NO MATTER WHAT INJUSTICES THEY COMMITTED AND WHAT THREATS THEY STILL POSED WE, NEVERTHELESS, RESPECT THE RIGHT TO LEAD DIGNIFIED LIVES.
THIS NEEDS LEADERSHIP AND CURRENTLY, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP, AND SO FAR THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER AND AS YOU SAY, HIS COALITION DOES NOT WANT A PALESTINIAN STATE OR EVEN PALESTINIANS TO RUN GAZA AFTER THIS WAR.
YOU SEE ON THE ISRAELI SIDE SOME KIND OF FLIPPING THE SWITCH TOWARDS SOME KIND OF SOLUTION FOR THIS WAR?
>> I DON'T KNOW AT PRESENT, THE NETANYAHU COALITION IS NOT ONLY ONE PERSON.
HE HAS A MAJORITY OF 64 OUT OF 22 KNESSET MEMBERS AND THEY ARE ALL SUPPORTING HIM.
AFTER OCTOBER 7th, ME AND OTHER ISRAELIS, WE WERE SURE THAT THIS GOVERNMENT WOULD FORM IN A MATTER OF WEEKS.
IT STILL IS EXTREMELY STABLE.
IT ENJOYS WIDESPREAD SUPPORT, BUT HISTORY IS NEVER LYNN WRAR AND WE CAN STILL HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL COME TO THEIR SENSES.
WHAT IS AT STAKE IS NOT JUST ISRAEL.
I THINK THE ENTIRE JEWISH PEOPLE IS AT A HISTORICAL JUNCTION THAT WE NEED TO REFLECT ON THE HISTORY OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE FOR 2,000 YEARS.
IF YOU GO BACK 2,000 YEARS TO THE GREAT JEWISH REVOLT AGAINST THE ROMANS IN THE FIRST SERVE C.E.
IT WAS LED BY RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS WHO THOUGHT THEY WERE SENT BOY GOD AND THEY BROUGHT A TERRIBLE SDAFT OR THE HEAD OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND NETANYAHU IS THE NEXT SIMON BARCOFTA WHO LED THE DISASTROUS RESULTS AND WHEN THE ROMANCE DESTROYED JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE THEY CHANGED THE NATURE OF JUDAISM.
JUDAISM THEN WAS A RELIGION OF THE TEMPLE AND THE PRIESTS WITH ALL OF THE BLOODY SACRIFICES AND THE ROMANS DESTROYEDED THAT AND JUDAISM BECAME A RELIGION OF LEARNING.
JEWS FOR 2,000 YEARS THEY WERE A RELIGION OF LEARNING EVERYWHERE THEY WERE, AND THEN THEY BUILT THEIR STATE, WE BUILT OUR STATE AND THE BIG QUESTION IS WHAT DID WE LEARN?
2,000 YEARS?
AND IF YOU ASK NETANYAHU AND HIS COLLEAGUES WE LEARNED ONLY THE JOY OF POWER, OF FEELING SUPERIOR, THE DARK ECSTASY OF CRUSHING WEAKER PEOPLE UNDER OUR FEET.
IF THIS IS WHAT WE LEARNED IN 2,000 YEARS THIS WAS SUCH A WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE WE COULD HAVE JUST ASKED THE ROMANS.
THEY COULD HAVE TOLD US 2,000 YEARS AGO HOW TO DESTROY CITY AND HOW TO ENJOY FEELING LIKE BEING SUPERIOR TO OTHERS AND SO FORTH, AND I THINK IT'S A REAL QUESTION THAT I THINK JEWS IN ISRAEL AND ELSEWHERE REFLECT, WHAT DID WE LEARN IN 2,000 YEARS THAT THE ROMANS DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW?
>> I'M GOING TO REFLECT ON THAT.
NOAH HARARI ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE YOU.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> SO AS YUVAL WAS JUST SAYING, AS ISRAELI EXTREMISTS FIGHT ANY PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD, PALESTINIANS HAVE NOT STOPPED ASSERTING THEIR HERITAGE OR CULTURE EVEN UNDER THE GUN OF THE OCCUPATION LIKE CHEF FADI CATAN WHO OPENED A RESTAURANT IN HIS HOMETOWN OF BETHLEHEM.
NOW HE'S OUT WITH A NEW BOOK BETHLEHEM AND PALESTINIAN FOOD.
WE TALKED ABOUT PRESERVING IDENTITY AND CULTURE EVEN WHILE ABSORBING THE IMPACT OF THIS WAR ON HIS OWN FAMILY AND FRIENDS.
WE SPOKE BEFORE BREAKING THE NEWS, BEFORE I BROKE THE NEWS OF THE ICC SEEKING INDICTMENTS FOR BOTH HAMAS LEADERS AND ISRAELI LEADERS, BUT HERE IS OUR CONVERSATION.
>> FADI KATTAN, WELCOME.
>> THANK YOU.
>> I AM ACTUALLY IN YOUR RESTAURANT, SO YOU ARE WELCOMING US, BUT WHAT IS IT ABOUT YOUR HOMELAND AND YOUR FOOD THAT YOU FELT NEEDED TO BE EXPLAINEDED?
>> EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING.
PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT PALESTINIAN CUISINE.
PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE LONG HISTORY.
OUR CUISINE IS ROOTED IN 5,000, 6,000 YEARS OF HISTORY AND IT'S A BEAUTIFULLY DIVERSE CUISINE AND THE TINY COUNTRY WITH THE DESERT, THE COAST AND THE FIG AND OLIVE LANDSCAPE, AND I THINK IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO SHARE WITH THE WORLD THAT.
>> BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LUMP THEM ALL TOGETHER.
FOOD AND THE MIDDLE EAST.
>> MIDDLE EAST AND MEDITERRANEAN ARE TERRIBLE WORDS AND IT'S AS IF I SAID EUROPEAN FOODS AND I WOULD PUT THE FOODS OF MARSEILLE AND NAPLES TOGETHER AND EACH REGION IS DIFFERENT AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO BE CELEBRATING.
>> SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FALAFEL IN PALESTINE OR ONE IN LEBANON?
>> THE LEBANESE HAVE VERY DIFFERENT CULTURE REFERENCES.
THE POPULATION OF LEBANON IS DIFFERENT.
IN PALESTINE WE'RE THE CROSSROADS OF A LOT OF HISTORIC TRADE ROUTES.
FALAFEL, FOR EXAMPLE, DOESN'T REALLY COME FROM PALESTINE.
IT COMES FROM EGYPT ORIGINALLY AND IT TRAVELED AND WHAT HAPPENED CORIANDER WAS ADDAED OR NOT AND PARSLEY WAS ADDED OR NOT AND OUR CUISINE IS BEYOND FALAFEL AND IT IS THE MACRUBA THAT HAS EGGPLANTS FROM BATIRSOUTH OF BETHLEHEM AND THOSE ARE THE TRADITIONS THAT WE TRY TO CELEBRATE.
>> AND CHILI, I READ, ACTUALLY CAME INTO GAZA THROUGH THE TRADE ROUTES.
>> THROUGH INDIA.
SO CHILE COMING TO EUROPE INITIALLY WAS BEING SHIPPED TO INDIA TO GAZA.
GAZA WAS HISTORICALLY ONE OF THE LARGEST PORTS ON THE MEDITERRANEAN IN PALESTINE.
.
.
THE REST OF PALESTINE DOESN'T USE CHILIES AND IT INFLUENCED THAT CUISINE.
>> AND I'M REALLY SURPRISED AND MY EARS PERK UP WHEN YOU SAY PALESTINIAN WINE.
I MEAN, WHO KNEW?
WE KNOW THERE'S GOLAN WINE.
>> WAIT, GOLAN IS OCCUPIED SYRIA.
>> OKAY.
>> NO, NO, IT'S GOOD YOU TOUCH ON THIS BECAUSE THE OLDEST PLANTED GRAPES IN THE WORLD WERE PLANTED BY JERICHO.
>> EXACTLY.
IF WE STICK TO BIBLICAL STORY MOSES SENT 12 SPIES TO THE LAND OF KANAAN AND TWO OF THOSE WENT BACK TO THE ISRAELITES IN THE DESERT WITH A BUNCH OF GROUPS, FRUIT THEY DIDN'T KNOW, AND I'M NOT LYING.
LOOK AT THE LOGO OF THE ISRAELI MINISTRY OF TOURISM AND IT'S THOSE TWO SPIES CARRYING THE GRAPES.
SO THOSE GRAPES WERE OURS AND THE TRADITION OF WINE, I COME FROM BETHLEHEM.
>> SO YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN.
YOU COME FROM BETHLEHEM.
CHRISTIANS ARE NOT KNOWN TO DRINK WINE AND HOW IS WINE SO POPULAR IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORY?
>> BETHLEHEM.
WINE HAS A REICH ALL USE AND WINE HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN OUR CULTURE, BUT MUSLIMS DO DRINK AND THE INVENTION OF DISTILLERY WAS MADE IN BAGHDAD UNDER THE OWNERSHIP OF -- >> YOWZA.
WE ARE GOING BACK CENTURIES.
YOU HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM THE WEST BANK.
WHAT DID YOU SEE, FEEL, ENDURE, EXPERIENCE EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE NOT IN GAZA OF THE WAR?
>> I HAVE FAMILY IN GAZA.
I HAVE FRIENDS IN GAZA.
IN THE WEST BANK IT IS SCARY TO SAY THE LEAST.
THE PEOPLE ARE WORRIED.
THERE WAS THE LARGEST LAND GRAB SINCE 1967 IT HAPPENED.
WHEN I WAS GOING AROUND THE MARKET AND THE PEOPLE IN THE BOOK THAT ARE FROM THE BETHLEHEM MARKET AND I WAS GIVING PEOPLE THE BOOK, AND THE SENTENCE I KEPT GETTING FROM EVERYBODY IS, ARE WE NEXT?
AND ARE WE NEXT MEANS -- WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE REST OF PALESTINE.
WHAT -- FOR ME IT'S VERY DIFFICULT AS A CHEF TO EVEN BE COOKING AND HONESTLY AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER FOR THE FIRST TWO WEEKS I COULDN'T EVEN COOK.
THERE'S A WHOLE PART OF MY PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING FORCE FORCEABLY STARVED AND IT IS MAN MADE STARVATION.
THAT HAS TO STOP.
WHAT IS THE FUTURE?
WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF ALL OF THIS INSANITY?
AT A CERTAIN MOMENT HUMANITY HAS TO PREVAIL.
WE ARE BEING DENIED OUR EXISTENCE.
I MEAN, YOU'VE SEEN AND I'VE SEEN A LOT OF YOUR GUESTS HAVE THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT EVEN EXISTING AND WE ARE ARABS WHO CAME IN '48 TO THAT LAND.
I LIVED IN BETHLEHEM IN MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER'S HOUSE THAT WAS BUILT IN 1886.
I HAVE TITLE NEEDS OF IRAN AND JAVA THAT WERE CONFISCATED IN '48.
AT A CERTAIN MOMENT THOSE FEARS, WHEN I WAS BACK HOME I WAS IMAGINING WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN GAZA, CALLING MY FAMILY IN GAZA WHEN I MANAGED TO GET THROUGH.
I DON'T HAVE THE TOOLS TO UNDERSTAND IT, I THINK.
THEY'VE SURVIVED.
THEY'VE SURVIVED.
THEY'RE HIDING AND KNOWN WHAT SURVIVAL IS.
I HAVE FRIENDS WHO MANAGED TO PAY THAT HORRENDOUS FEE AND GET OUT OF GAZA.
SOME OF THEM WERE NOT THAT LUCKY.
WHAT'S REALLY SCARE IS NONE OF THE OFFICIAL SPEECHES ARE EVEN ACKNOWLEDGING THAT WE EXIST.
>> SO YOU, WITH YOUR BOOK "BETHLEHEM," WITH THE RESTAURANTS, WITH THE OLIVE TREE HERE AND THE ANCIENT KEYS THAT YOU DECORATED THIS RESTAURANT WHICH MARK THE MAKBA AND THE PALESTINIANS THAT LOST HOMES AND YOU ARE PUTTING THE PALESTINIAN CULTURE AND THE PALESTINIAN NATION RIGHT THERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE AND ACKNOWLEDGE.
IS THAT PART OF YOUR MISSION?
>> THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY EVEN SEEING THIS.
>> I'M NOT SAYING A POL SDWRIEZ, BUT -- >> NO, I'M SAYING ABOUT THE MISSION.
IF I WERE AN ITALIAN CHEF CELEBRATING MY HISTORY IT WOULD BE NORMAL.
AS A PALESTINIAN VERY OFTEN I FEEL I HAVE TO BE APOLOGIZING FOR BEING PALESTINIAN SO WHEN I THINK OF THE LAND WE LOST AND THE ORANGES OF JAFFA.
I DREAMED OF MY FAMILY EXPORTING THEIR ORANGES TO THE UK.
MY MISSION IS TO SHARE WITH PEOPLE THE BEAUTY OF PALESTINE .
>> TELL US.
>> THERE IS A AUBERGINE, WITH CORIANDER SEEDS, DILL, PARSLEY AND A BIT OF OLIVE OIL AND POMEGRANATE SEEDS.
WE DID MAFUSA WHICH MEANS SQUASH IN ARABIC AND THEY HAVE BEEN BAKED, SQUASHED -- ZUCCHINIS, OLIVE OIL AND LEMON.
WE DID FRICA SALAD THAT HAS CARROTS AND GREEN CABBAGE LEAVES, YOUNG CABBAGE LEAVES IN IT AND SOUMAK AND WE DID A SLOW-COOKED BEEF AND THAT'S MY GREAT-GRANDMOTHER'S RECIPE.
THOSE ARE IN THE BOOK.
THE IDEA OF THE BOOK WAS TO HAVE ACCESSIBLE PALESTINIAN RECIPES, AND I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE IF YOU GET THE BOOK, I HAVE TO CHECK IN A YEAR'S TIME.
IT HAS TO HAVE OLIVE OIL AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE USED BECAUSE OUR CUISINE IS -- OUR FARMERS' ACCESS TO THEIR LAND IS BEING LIMITED BY SETTLER.
THE ACCESS TO WATER.
I MEAN, ALL OF THE REALITY OF PALESTINE.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME, SO YOU WERE ASKING ABOUT GAZA AND SINCE GAZA WHAT I FELT BEING BACK IN BETHLEHEM AND THAT'S THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY WASTING TIME AND WORKING WITH THINGS THAT ARE DISAPPEARING.
SOME OF THE WINE GROWERS WE WORK WITH HAVE NO MORE ACCESS TO CERTAIN BITS OF THEIR LAND.
AND THAT SENSE OF URGENCY -- YOU KNOW, THE BOOK STARTED WAY BEFORE THE 7th OF OCTOBER.
IT TAKES TWO YEARS TO MAKE A BOOK, BUT HAVING IT OUT NOW I DO FEEL WE ARE TRYING TO CONTRIBUTE A BIT TO SAVING THIS.
>> I'M ALWAYS MINDFUL ANY TIME I'VE TRAVELED WHETHER IT'S IN PALESTINE OR ANYWHERE IN THE ARAB WORLD IN PLACES WHERE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE MUCH THEY ARE SO HOSPITABLE.
THEY GIVE YOU WHAT THEY HAVE, AND IT IS SUCH AN AMAZING TRADITION THAT HOSPITALITY AND EVEN THE DIREST, THE DIREST OF CIRCUMSTANCES, AND I WONDER WHAT YOUR REFLECTIONS ARE ON THAT AND WHETHER IT'S A CLICHE, BUT WHETHER THERE IS A COMMONALITY THAT YOU CAN BRING PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, A HUMANIZING FACTOR TOWARDS SHARING FOOD.
>> THAT HOSPITALITY WHICH IS PRESENT IN A LOT OF PLACES AROUND THE REGION IS THE ESSENCE OF HOW WE LIVE WHEN YOU COOK FOR FIVE YOU ALWAYS HAVE THREE PORTIONS SOMEWHERE.
I REMEMBER AS A KID GOING TO MY GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE AND YOU KNOW, SURPRISING HER, OH, BY THE WAY, I PICKED UP A FEW FRIENDS ON THE WAY AND SHE'D ALWAYS FIND SOMETHING TO DISH OUT AND THAT'S TRUE TO ANYBODY IN THE REGION.
WHAT WE SEE IN GAZA, WHEN PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO MOVE TO RAFFA BEFORE THIS LAST ATTACK ON RAFAH, PEOPLE WERE BAKING WITH MAKESHIFT STUFF.
THEY WERE NOT BAKING FOR THEMSELVES.
THEY WERE BAKING FOR EVERYBODY AROUND THEM, SO THIS NONALITY OF COMMONALITY OF GETTING PEOPLE AROUND FOOD.
WHAT I AM CAREFUL IS WHEN YOU ARE USED TO FOOD WASH THE REALITIES OF OCCUPATION, GETTING PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS TO COOK TOGETHER AND TRYING TO PRETEND THAT REALITY DOESN'T EXIST, THAT, FOR ME, IS SCARY BECAUSE THERE IS THE REALITY OF THE HORROR OF WHAT OCCUPATION IS.
OCCUPATION IS NOT ONLY BOMBING GAZA AND IT IS ME NOT BEING ABLE TO TRAVEL FREELY AND HAVING TO CROSS TO JORDAN TO GRAB A FLIGHT BEING HERE WHILE A PERSON ON MY LAND DRIVES 45 MINUTES AND IS IN LONDON NINE HOURS LATER, AND IT TAKES ME A WHOLE DAY.
THAT IS THE OCCUPATION.
IT'S HAPPENED A LOT IN THE PAST WITH OSLO AND THERE WAS THIS EUPHORIC HOPE.
I WAS PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HOPEFUL THAT WE WOULD FINALLY BE ABLE TO CREATE PEACE AND A PEACE THAT'S MADE FROM JUSTICE AND BASED ON REPAIRING WHAT HAS HAPPENED SOMEHOW.
THERE WAS A LOT OF THESE INITIATIVES AROUND LET'S GET TOGETHER AROUND THE TABLE ON THE SEGREGATION WAR IN BETHLEHEM, THERE'S A TIDE THAT SAYS MAKE HUMMUS, NOT WAR.
>> YOU DON'T LIKE THAT ON THAT WALL.
>> NO.
MY REAL SENTIMENT TOWARD THAT SPECIFIC TAG I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A TUB OF HUMMUS AND ACTUALLY THROW IT AT THE WALL, BUT I DON'T HATE FOOD WASTE AND I WON'T DO IT.
THE WALL IS AN UGLY, GRAY, CONCRETE WALL.
IT SHOULDN'T BE MADE BEAUTIFUL.
IT SHOULDN'T BE MADE FETISHIZED AND SHOULDN'T BE MADE HORROR.
THIS THING IS SEPARATING PALESTINIANS FROM PALESTINIANS.
IT IS SEPARATING ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.
I KNOW ISRAELIS.
I GREW UP WITH ISRAELI TEACHERS IN SCHOOL.
I HAVE ISRAELI FRIENDS.
THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS, WHAT DO THEY KNOW OF EACH OTHER?
THE ISRAELIS SEE US AS CHEAP LABOR AND AS VIOLENT TERRORISTS.
THE PALESTINIANS SEE THE ISRAELIS AS SOLDIERS AND SETTLERS AND WE CAN'T SEE BEYOND US.
PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THERE IS IN THE INTEREST OF THE SECURITY, AND I'M NOT A SECURITY EXPERT.
YOU AND I GET ALONG BECAUSE WE'RE CIVIL TO EACH OTHER BECAUSE WE KNOW EACH OTHER AND IF WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GET ALONG VERY MUCH UPON.
IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THIS.
>> THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS FINE DINING IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORY OR GAZA.
>> TRUE.
>> A, WHY NOT?
AND HOW DID IT GO DOWN?
>> PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS CRAZY, AND I SAID I NEED TABLE MATTING AND THEN TWO WHITE TABLE CLOTHS AND I HAD TO TRAIN A TEAM ABOUT DOING FINE DINING SERVICE.
PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS NUTS.
I ENJOYED IT.
I ENJOY PEOPLE THINKING I'M CRAZY, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS ESSENTIAL TO PUT PALESTINIAN CUISINE ON THE MAP, AND IT'S NOT PUTTING IT ON THE MAP BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST.
I AM NO HERO.
BUT I ATE PALESTINIAN FOOD AND IT FRUSTRATED ME THAT WHEN YOU WENT OUT IN PALESTINE THE ONLY OPTIONS WERE GETTING WAS OUR FANTASTIC STREET FOOD, FALLA HELL, ET CETERA OR MEZZES AND GRILLED MEAT AND WHY IS THAT THERE?
WE PUSHED IT EVEN FURTHER AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A MENU AND I WOULD COOK EVERY DAY WHATEVER THE FARMERS HAD AND IT GAVE US THAT OPPORTUNITY, AND CREATIVITY TO ACTUALLY BUILD ON THE FLAVORS THAT CHANGED DALY AND SOMETIMES CHANGED BETWEEN LUNCH AND DINNER, BUT IT WAS AGAIN, CELEBRATING THESE PEOPLE.
>> AND FOR PALESTINIANS TO KNOW THAT THEY HAD A GREAT TRADITION.
>> OF COURSE.
>> -- OF CUISINE.
>> FOR THEM TO BE PROUD.
>> IS THERE ANYTHING IN THESE DARK TIMES THAT GIVIOUS HOPE FOR THE FUTURE IN YOUR COUNTRY?
>> WHAT GIVES ME HOPE IS SEEING ALL THESE VOICES ACROSS THE WORLD BEYOND FAITH, ETHNICITY, POLITICAL ORIENTATION, SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND RAISING THEIR VOICES IN A CORE OF LOVE AND WHEN YOU CALL FOR HUMANITY IT'S A CALL FOR LOVE AND YOU'RE NOT TAKING SIDE AND IT'S NOT THE ISRAELIS VERSUS PALESTINIANS AND IT'S A CALL FOR HUMANITY AND FOR THE STUDENTS IN THE U.S. TO PEOPLE IN LONDON, AND PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE MARCHING ON THERE AND CALLING FOR THE END OF THIS INSANITY AND SEEING HOW DIVERSE THEY ARE.
YOU KNOW PALESTINE QUITE WELL.
PALESTINE IS A DIVERSE PLACE ALSO AND THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM HAS MORE LANGUAGES SPOKEN THAN ANYONE ELSE AND THAT IS WHO WE ARE AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE SEE THAT DIVERSITY FINALLY CALLING FOR AN END TO THIS AND THERE SHOULD BE AN END TO THIS.
THAT'S THE HOPE I HAVE.
>> FADI KATTAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
>> A VERY WELCOMING PLACE TO BE.
NOW WE LOOK BACK TO AN EARLIER TIME OF EXTREMIST TURMOIL.
NEW YORK IN THE EARLY 20th CENTURY WHEN VIOLENT ANARCHISTS THREATENED THE ESTABLISHED ORDER AND IS THE FOCUS OF STEPHEN JOHNSON'S NEW BOOK THE INFERNL MACHINE AND HERE HE IS DISCUSSING IT WITH WALTER ISAACSON.
>> THANK YOU, AND STEVEN JOHNSON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> HEY.
THANK YOU.
IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK.
>> ALL OF YOUR WONDERFUL BOOKS, THEY TEND TO LOOK AT AN INTERSECTION, AN INTERWEAVING OF TECHNOLOGY AND BIG SOCIAL MOVEMENTS AND ISSUES AND POLICIES, AND THIS LATEST ONE, "THE INFERNAL MACHINE" REFERRING TO DYNAMITE TALKS ABOUT THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE AND THEN THE RISE OF AN ARCISM AS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AND THEN THE BACKLASH FROM STATE SURVEILLANCE AND POLICING.
SO LET'S START WITH THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE AND WE KNOW THE FOUNDER OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AND HE IS ALSO THE ONE THAT INVENTS DYNAMITE.
TELL US THE STORY.
>> IT IS A TRAGIC STORY AND NOBEL HAD BEEN OBSESSED WITH THIS NEWLY DISCOVERED CHEMICAL, NITROGLYCERIN WHICH WAS REALLY THE FIRST REAL INNOVATION IN EXPLOSIONS SINCE GUNPOWDER, AND HAD JUST BEEN DISCOVERED IN THE 1840s AND MOST PEOPLE THAT MESSED AROUND WITH NITROGLYCERIN DECIDED IT WAS TOO UNSTABLE AND HE COULDN'T HANDLE IT IN A WAY THAT THEY COULDN'T CAUSE IT TO DETONATE RANDOMLY AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO EXPLORED IN THAT PERIOD WERE EITHER INJURED OR KILLED AND NOBEL THOUGHT THERE WAS A WAY TO TAME THIS NEW CHEMICAL, AND HE HAD THIS VISION OF THE CONTROLLED EXPLOSION.
THAT IF YOU COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DETONATE IT ON COMMAND IN A SAFE WAY AND CREATE A PORTABLE FORM OF IT THAT COULD BE TRANSPORTED WITHOUT IT ACTUALLY BLOWING UP AND THEN IT WOULD REVOLUTIONIZE CIVIL ENGINEERING AND YOU COULD BUILD RAILROADS AND CARVE OUT NEW MINES AND TUNNELS AND BUILD.
>> YOU TALK AND WHENEVER YOU WRITE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND YOUR BOOKS ARE ALWAYS ABOUT INVENTION AND TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION THAT THERE TENDS TO BE A TREND, NOT ALWAYS, BUT TENDS TO BE A TREND THAT EMPOWERS THE INDIVIDUAL AND IN OTHER WORDS, IT TAKES POWER FROM CENTRALIZED AUTHORITIES AND THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE FOLLOWS A PATTERN THAT HAS GENERALLY BEEN TRUE OF SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES OVER THE LONG TERM.
SCIENTISTS AND TECHNOLOGY PUTS EVER-INCREASING POWER IN THE HANDS OF SMALLER AND SMALLER GROUPS.
I MEAN, THAT'S TRUE FROM EVERYTHING FROM THE INTERNET TO SOCIAL MEDIA AND TO DYNAMITE AND SO THAT CAUSES A POLITICAL REPERCUSSION.
THE POSITIVE AND YOU CAN HAVE A SMALLER TEAM AND YOU NEEDED VAST AMOUNTS OF GUNPOWDER AND PEOPLE COULDN'T MOVE THAT GUNPOWDER AROUND IF YOU WERE GOING TO BLAST YOUR WAY THROUGH THE MOUNTAINSIDE AND YOU COULD DO IT WITH A CHEAP, PORTABLE CANISTER OF DYNAMITE.
SO IT BASICALLY CREATED A MORE COMPACT TECHNOLOGY IN BUILDING RAILROAD, BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INITIALLY IN EUROPE AND THEN IN THE UNITED STATES BEGAN TO REAL A THAT IT GAVE THEM A DIFFERENT KIND OF POWER, A WAY TO STAGE THESE VIOLENT ACTS THAT ONE SINGLE PERSON OR A SMALL GROUP COULD DO THAT COULD BLOW UP A CAFE OR A COURTHOUSE, AND WE SEE IN THE 1870s AND 1880s THE FIRST REAL EXAMPLE OF TERRORISM AS WE KNOW IT TODAY CULMINATING WITH A LONG SET PIECE IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS IN THE ASSASSINATION OF ALEXANDER II THE RUSSIAN INTRAR WHO WAS KILLED BY HISTORY'S FIRST SUICIDE BOMBER.
AND THAT -- AND THAT JUST SPREADS ACROSS THE GLOBE AND THE ANARCHISTS GET SO INTIMATELY CONNECTED WITH THIS NEW INNOVATION FROM NOBEL THAT THEY BECOME KNOWN AS THE DYNAMITE CLUB.
>> BUT THESE ARE ANARCHISTS AND THAT'S A NEW POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT COMES UP AT THE SAME TIME THAT DYNAMITE COMES UP AND THE ANARCHISTS OR EVERYBODY FROM EMMA GOLDMAN TO ALEXANDER BROOKMAN AND PETER, THEY ARE ALL GREAT CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK.
TELL ME, WHAT IS YOUR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY?
>> IT'S BEEN LOST IN THE POPULAR PERCEPTION OF WHAT ANARCHISM IS BECAUSE THEIR CORE IDEA WAS THAT INDUSTRIALIZATION HAD CREATED THIS VIOLENT SOCIETY AND THE BODY COUNT AND CARNAGE OF THE EMERGING FACTORY SYSTEM OF THAT PERIOD WAS FAR MORE VIOLENT THAN THE ACTS OF TERRORISM THAT THEY WERE PERPETUATING.
>> TO EXPLAIN THAT, YOU TALK ABOUT THE WEEPER FACTORY OR THE U.S. STEEL FACTORIES.
PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY WEEK, RIGHT?
>> YES.
YES.
I MEAN, WAS THERE SOME KIND OF SURVEY OF ONE COUNTY OF INDUSTRIAL PITTSBURGH OVER A YEAR WITH 529 DEATHS AND THAT'S JUST DEATHS, BUT THE NUMBER OF DISMEMBERMENTS FROM THESE ACCIDENTS AND EACH ONE IS AN ACCIDENT AND NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL THE WORKERS, BUT IT WAS PREDICTABLE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND YOU COULD SEE THIS WAS HAPPENING AND THE RAILROAD INDUSTRY WAS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS AT THAT POINT, AND SO THE ANARCHISTS BELIEVED THAT THERE WAS ACTUALLY A BETTER WAY TO ORGANIZE SOCIETY AND THAT WE HAD LIVED THROUGH IT DURING THE RENAISSANCE, BASICALLY, IN SMALL COMMUNITIES OF ARTISANS AND GUILDS WHERE THERE WASN'T A LOT OF SOCIAL HIERARCHY AND THERE WEREN'T GIANT CORPORATIONS AND GRO TFK FACTUALLIES AND LIFE WAS PRETTY GOOD AND FOR PEOPLE LIKE THEM WERE SLOWING DOWN THE PACE OF TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION AND REINS IN THESE HUGE TITANS OF INDUSTRY AND ALSO LARGE GOVERNMENT AEMSS AND RETURNING THAT ALMOST VILLAGE LIFE.
>> LET ME READ SOMETHING ELSE OF YOUR BOOK, MEASURED AGAINST THE LANDSCAPE EMMA BERGUM ENCOUNTERED AS YOUNG ADULTS THE MUCH-LAMENTED TRUMP ERA WAS A LOT LESS SEVERE.
WAS THE POLARIZATION LESS SEVERE THAN IT IS NOW?
>> ONE, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A WORLD WHERE THERE'S SO MUCH MORE POLITICAL VIOLENCE.
WE'VE JUST COME OFF OF JANUARY 6th AND OBVIOUSLY, THAT WAS A SHOCKING EVENT, BUT THE NUMBER OF ASSASSINATIONS AND THE NUMBER OF RIOTS AND THE NUMBER OF TERRORIST ACTS AND DOMESTIC TERRORIST ACTS AND WHAT WAS JUST FAR MORE, TREATMENT, YOU KNOW, 110 YEARS AGO, 120 YEARS AGO, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE VALUE AND THE RANGE OF POLITICAL POSITIONS, RIGHT?
ONE OF THE MAJOR EVENTS THAT HAPPENS IN THE BOOK IS THE MASSACRE WHERE ROCKEFELLER EMPLOYED MILITIA TO BURN DOWN AN ENCAMPMENT OF STRIKING WORKERS IN COLORADO AND ENDED UP KILLING A NUMBER OF THEM INCLUDING SOME CHILDREN.
AND YOU BASICALLY HAVE A SITUATION WHERE ONE SIDE OF THE DEBATE IS SAYING, LISTEN, IF PEOPLE GO ON STRUCK TO REDUCE THEIR 60-HOUR WORKWEEK DOWN TO THE 40-HOUR WORKWEEK THEN THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE SIGN TO DO IT.
THE OTHERS THINK ABOUT TURNING THE GUILT-DRIVEN SOCIETY.
THOSE POLLS DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE.
WE ARE A MUCH MORE NARROW PART OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM NOW, AND SO I THINK IT DOES GIVE US SOME CONTEXT ABOUT THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN NOW LOOKING BACK AT A PERIOD REALLY NOT THAT FAR IN THE PAST.
>> THE THIRD THEME IN YOUR BOOK THAT GETS WOVEN INTO IT IS THAT THE BOMBINGS AND ANARCHISM LEAD TO THE RISE OF THE SURVEILLANCE AND POLICING TACTICS AND THAT INCLUDES NEW INVENTIONS LIKE THE FINGER PRINT BEING A NEW IDEA AND ALSO TO THE RISE OF WHAT WE SEE IN POLICING NOW OF KEEPING TRACK OF PEOPLE.
TELL ME HOW THAT FITS IN.
>> IN A WAY, THAT'S ACTUALLY WHERE I BEGAN IN THIS PROJECT THAT I WAS INTERESTED.
AS YOU SAID I'M INTERESTED IN NEW IDEAS AND NEW SCIENTIFIC IDEAS AND TECHNOLOGICAL IDEAS AND THE FIRST THOUGHT I HAD WAS MAYBE THERE WAS A BOOK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES AND POLICING AND THE IDENTIFICATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
ONE OF THE CRAZY THINGS IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT IS 120 OR 120 YEARS AGO BEFORE THAT STUFF WAS DEVELOPED AND THERE WAS NO STANDARDIZED FORM OF IDENTIFICATION.
SO IF YOU WERE ARRESTED YOU COULD JUST MAKE UP A NAME AND THEY'D HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW WHO YOU WERE.
SO THERE WAS A FLURRY OF ACTIVITY, IN LARGE PART AS I DOCUMENTED IN THE BOOK IT WAS TRIGGEREDED BY ANARCHIST ACTIVITY LED BY ALFONSE BERTION, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD TALK PHOTOGRAPHY AND MEASURING BODY PARTS AND THEN THE SCIENCE OF FINGERPRINT TECHNOLOGY STARTS TO EMERGE JUST AS THE ANICUS IS STARTING TO EMERGE AND THEY CO-DEVELOP ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER.
THE A REALLY INTERESTING CHARACTERS IN THE -- IN NEW YORK IN THAT PERIOD ON EITHER RUNNING NYPD OR PART OF THE NYPD AND PARTICULARLY IT'S TWO GUYS AND ARTHUR WOODS AND WHO ARE LARGELY FORGOTTEN, I THINK HE GETS TO RIDE IT AND A LONDON -- AND IF HE BUILDS A LITTLE ROGUE IDENTIFICATION BUREAU INSIDE OF THE NYPD AND WINS A COUPLE OF CASES AND SLOWLY STARTS TO PROVE OUT THIS NEW SCIENCE AND SO IT'S -- IN A SENSE THE BATTLE BETWEEN TWO IDEAS.
THE IDEA OF ANARCHISM AND THE IDEA OF TERRORISM AND ON THE OTHER SIDE THE IDEA OF USING THESE NEW, STATE-SUPPORTED SYSTEMS AND ANALYSIS AND IDENTIFICATION TO KEEP THAT THREAT IN CHECK.
>> ANOTHER IMPORTANT CHARACTER NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK IS ONE MOST PEOPLE HAVE HEARD OF, OF COURSE, J. EDGAR HOOVER AND THERE WAS A PASSAGE ABOUT HIM AND WE THINK ABOUT HOOVER AS INVESTIGATING MARTIN LUTHER KING AND BOBBY KENNEDY, BUT THERE IS A PASSAGE ABOUT HIM ABOUT HOW HE HELPS CREATE SCIENTIFIC POLICING.
WHEN HISTORIANS CATALOG THE MOMENTOUS INVENTIONS OF HISTORY, THE PRINTING PRESS, THE TELESCOPE AND THE THEME, AND THE TOOLS THAT HELP US EXPLORE THE EVER LARGER POOLS OF INFORMATION AND WIDEN THE NET WE CAN CAST IN THOSE POOLS CAN OFTEN TRIGGER INFLEXION POINTS IN HISTORY.
TELL ME ABOUT J. EDGAR HOOVER'S EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM.
>> HOOVER -- AND THIS HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED BUT CENTRAL TO THIS STORY WAS TRAINED AS A LIBRARIAN.
HE WORKED AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AS A TEENAGER AND THERE WAS A NEW FILE SYSTEM THAT HAD BEEN DEVELOPED FOR THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND IT MADE IT EASY TO FILE THE INFORMATION SO YOU COULD FIND WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR.
WHEN HE BEGAN CALLING THEN THE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION THAT THEN BECAME THE FBI HE WAS SET IN CHARGE OF WHAT WAS TO DEAL WITH THE ANARCHISTS POSITION AND IT WAS AROUND 1817 AND HE SET UP THE SYSTEM MODELED AFTER THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CALLED THE EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM AND IT'S WHAT WE WOULD CALL A RELATIONAL DATABASE WHERE YOU HAD INDEX CARDS THAT WERE CONNECTED TO BOTH BETWEEN PEOPLE, PLACES, EVENTS, PUBLICATIONS AND ALLEGED CRIMES AND THEY ARE ALL CROSS REFERENCED.
AND SO IF YOU WERE TRYING TO PULL ALL OF THE POTENTIAL SUBVERSIVES WHO WERE AT A PARTICULAR RALLY AT ANY MOMENT OF TIME YOU CAN GATHER THAT INFORMATION BECAUSE OF THIS TECHNIQUE THAT HOOVER HAD DESIGNED, YOU KNOW, TEN TIMES FASTER THAN YOU USED TO DO BEFORE AND ONE PERSON CAN DO IT INSTEAD OF TEN PEOPLE.
YOU'D GET MORE A MORE EFFICIENT GATHERING OF INFORMATION, AND THAT WAS THE TECHNIQUE THAT IT WAS THE FIRST DEPLOYMENT OF THE EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM AND THE FIRST ATTEMPT TO WEAPONIZE LIBRARY SCIENCE WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY WHAT HOOVER IS DOING WAS USED TO DEPORT EMMA GOLDMAN AND ALEXANDER BROOKMAN TO REVOLUTIONARY RUSSIA IN 1919.
>> I COULDN'T HELP THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE ACTUALLY DOING NOW BECAUSE YOU WORKED PART-TIME AT GOOGLE NOW, QUITE A BIT OF YOUR TIME AT GOOGLE NOW, CREATING NOTEBOOK LM WHICH IS A LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL TYPE CHATBOT LIKE CHATGPT OR FOR THAT MATTER, GOOGLE'S GEMINI, BUT IT TRAINS ON YOUR OWN DATA.
YOU GET TO PUT IN THE DATA SET YOU WANT.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING AND IT SORT OF FEEDS INTO THIS NOTION OF DATA SCIENCE THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK.
EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE DOING THERE.
ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN AND IT'S A VARED INTEREST IS THE HISTORY TOOLS FOR THOUGHT AND USING SOFTWARE THAT HELP US WRITE, THINK AND CREATE AND WHAT THEY DISCOVERED TWO YEARS AGO IS THE LANGUAGE MODELS CAN BE HARNESSED IN A WAY TO MAKE THAT PROCESS WAY MORE EFFECTIVE AND WHAT WE STARTED TO DEVELOP, BASICALLY GOOGLE REACHED OUT TO ME AND SAID HEY CAN YOU HELP US DEVELOP A TOOL THAT YOU'VE DREAMT OF YOUR WHOLE LIFE BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY THAT COULD BE EXTRAORDINARY.
WHAT IT DOES, AS YOU SUGGESTED,EN STEAD OF CHATTING WITH A MODEL WITH A GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE MODEL YOU GIVE NOTEBOOK LM A SET OF DOCUMENTS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOU.
IN MY CASE THEY MIGHT BE DOCUMENTS FOR A BOOK I'M WORKING ON OR PERSONAL DOCUMENTS, WHATEVER IT IS.
AT THAT POINT ONCE YOU'VE UPLOADED STHEM IT IS ALMOST AS IF THE MODEL BECOMES AN EXPERT IN THE WORK THAT YOU'VE GIVE 10 TO SEE AND IT REDUCES HALLUCINATIONS DRAMATICALLY AND MAKES IT MUCH MORE PERSONALIZED AND IT'S ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THE INFORMATION THAT YOU CARE ABOUT AND NOT JUST GENERAL INFORMATION OF THE WORLD.
SO FOR INSTANCE, I HAVE NOTEBOOK I HAVE ONE NOTEBOOK WHERE I HAVE LOADED UP 7,000 QUOTE AILZS THAT I'VE READ AND MY RESEARCH NOTES AND I'VE BEEN COLLECTING FROM BOOKS AND I CAN GO IN THERE AND SAY WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUTANT COLONIES ORR DOLPHINS AND THE HISTORY OF FORENSIC SCIENCE AND CREATE AN OVERVIEW WITH CITATIONS AND ORIGINAL QUOTES SO I CAN GET A SENSE OF MY LANDSCAPE IN THE RESEARCH NOTES AND IT WILL GENERATE THAT DOCUMENT IN 30 SECONDS.
AND SO MY ABILITY TO EXPLORE THESE VAST TOMES OF INFORMATION IS ASSEMBLING THE INFORMATION COULD BE DONE IN AN AUTOMATIC WAY AND I'M FREED UP TO ACTUALLY HAVE THE IMPORTANT THOUGHTS AND TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CREATIVELY PUT IT ON THE PAGE.
I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT.
>> THE THEME OF YOUR BOOK IS PARTLY ABOUT HOW DATA SCIENCE CAN HELP US KWL GREAT WAYS, GOOD WAYS, CRIME SOLVING AND PERHAPS GIVE MORE POWER TO THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP AN EYE ON US.
IN GENERAL, AS WE LOOK AT THE DATA SCIENCE THAT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE ABILITY TO PROCESS JUST HUGE AMOUNTS OF DATA AND FIND PATTERNS, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT SOCIETY?
>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH ANY TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION THAT IS SIGNIFICANT, THEY'RE GOING TO BE UNANTICIPATED REGULAR DOWNSTREAM CONSEQUENCES AND THAT JUST HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE COMPLEX TECHNOLOGIES, BUT I THINK PARTICULARLY WITH THE AI TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE TODAY THAT THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR IT TO BE USED FOR GOOD AND FOR -- IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY TECHNOLOGY FOR JUST ENHANCING YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND MATERIAL AND SINCE ANYBODY NOW HAS ACCESS TO A TUTOR THAT CAN EXPLAIN THINGS TO THEM AND HELP THEM DIVE DEEPER INTO THE MATERIAL AND SO IN THE END, I THINK, TECHNOLOGIES THAT ENHANCE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING AND ALLOW US TO BE MORE CREATIVE AND COME UP WITH MORE ORIGINAL IDEAS THAT WHILE THAT TECHNOLOGY CAN BE DEPLOYED FOR VARIOUS ENDS IN SOME CASES, WE STILL IN THE END WILL BE EXCITED THAT WE HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY AN ENHANCER OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD.
>> STEPHEN JOHNSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>> A FASCINATING LOOK BACK AND FINALLY, IT MAY ONLY BE MAY, BUT SOME PEOPLE THINK THEY'VE ALREADY FOUND THE SONG OF THE SUMMER.
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