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> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
IT'S SIMPLY NOT UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THE USE OF WEAPONS IN SUCH AMOUNT IS ALLOWED.
GERMANY'S VICE CHANCELLOR GIVES A FRANK MESSAGE OVERSEAS IN A MESSAGE HE SAYS THE EU IS NOT UNANIMOUS ABOUT RANNING RUSSIAN OIL.
> THEN --
WE NEED TO FIX THIS, AND THE WAY WE FIX IT IS FOR PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT IT TO SPEAK UP.
SHE PUTS AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH GUNS IN CONTEXT.
> PLUS --
THE RUSSIANS ARE JUST A KILOMETER ON THE BROW OF THIS HILL.
A SPECIAL REPORT FROM UKRAINE'S FRONT LINES.
> ALSO AHEAD.
EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHERE WAR, CONFLICT IS HAPPENING -- IS USED.
NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER DISCUSSES HOW RAPE IS STILL BEING USED AS A WEAPON OF WAR AND HOW THE WOMEN HE HELPS GIVE HIM HOPE.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE WORLD IS AT A TURNING POINT.
THAT'S THE VERDICT OF THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR WHO WARNED DAVOS THAT MORE THAN JUST UKRAINE IS AT WAR.
WHAT'S AT STAKE IS AN EXISTENCE OF A NATIONAL CORPORATION THAT EMERGED AGAIN.
AN ORDER THAT BINDS POWER TO LAW, AN ORDER THAT BINDS OUTLAWS BY ACHIEVING POLITICAL AIMS AND HAS GUARANTEED US SECURITY AND PROSPERITY OVER THE PAST DECADES.
HE SAYS GERMANY AND EUROPEAN YUAN YOR ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO STOP FEEDING THE WAR MACHINE DEVASTATING UKRAINE.
MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT TOLD ME THERE'S A ROAD BLOCK TO AN EU EMBARGO.
THE VICE CHANCELLOR IS NAMING NAMES AND TELLING ME AN EU NATION IS DRAGGING ITS HEELS.
THE GREEN PARTY POLITICIAN JOINED ME THIS WEEK AFTER THE MASS SHOOTING?
TEXAS WHICH KILLED 19 CHILDREN AND TWO TEACHERS.
A 2019 SHOOTING AT A GERMAN HIGH SCHOOL SPURRED IMMEDIATE LEGISLATION, AND THE VICE CHANCELLOR SAYS LIKE SO MANY OTHERS WATCHING OVERSEAS THAT HE JUST CANNOT UNDERSTAND AMERICA'S GUN LAWS.
VICE CHANCELLOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
HELLO AND GOOD EVENING.
CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOUR REACTION AS A GERMAN IS TO THIS HORRENDOUS HAS MASSACRE OF CHILDREN BY A GUNMAN IN TEXAS IN THE UNITED STATES.
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME EXPRESS MY DEEPEST CONDOLENCES FOR THE FAMILIES WHO LOST FAMILY MEMBERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO LOST FRIENDS AND PARTNERS.
THIS IS ANOTHER TERRIBLE ATTACK ON HUMANITY, I WOULD SAY.
SO FIRST OF ALL, ALL THE BEST, ALL THE STRENGTH IN THE WORLD FOR THE ONES WHO ARE NOW SUFFERING OR HAVE THESE GRIEF LOSSES.
AND THEN, SECONDLY, OF COURSE, IT'S U.S. INTERIOR BUSINESS, BUT I MEAN, FROM A GERMAN POINT OF VIEW, IT'S SIMPLY NOT UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THE USE OF WEAPONS IN SUCH AMOUNT IS ALLOWED.
AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY REALLY ARMED WAR WEAPONS ARE ALLOWED FREE ON THE MARKET IN THE U.S.
FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE, FROM A GERMAN PERSPECTIVE, THE LOSS OF LIFE IS A PRICE TOO HIGH TO PAY FOR THIS ALLOWANCE AND THIS RULE, SO MAYBE THE SECOND THOUGHT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
YOU MENTIONED THE IDEA OF MILITARY-STYLE WEAPONS BEING BOUGHT BY CIVILIANS AND USED IN THIS WAY.
I WANT TO JUST ASK YOU TO REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT SO MANY IN THE UNITED STATES ATTRIBUTE THE USE OF GUNS -- I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MASSACRES, BUT THE ABILITY TO BUY GUNS, HAVE GUNS, TO THE IDEA OF FREEDOM.
IT'S KIND OF BECOME A STRANGE SORT OF SLOGAN THAT FREEDOM EXISTS EVEN UP TO THIS LEVEL.
AGAIN, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT CONNECTION?
WELL, I WOULD ALWAYS ARGUE THAT EUROPE IS A CONTINENT WITH A LOT OF FREEDOM, AND WE HAVEN'T THESE GRIEF ATTACKS.
OF COURSE, THERE ARE OTHER TERROR ATTACKS IN EUROPE AS WELL.
I WOULD ALSO ARGUE THAT GERMANY IS A SAFER COUNTRY THAN THE U.S., AND WE DON'T ALLOW THE USE OF WEAPONS AND THE SELLING OF WEAPONS IN SUCH AMOUNT.
SO I MEAN, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, IT'S NOT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND LESSER WEAPONS, LESSER DEAD.
LET ME MOVE TO THE BIG GEOPOLITICAL ISSUE OF OUR TIME AND THAT IS THE FREEDOM AND DEFENSE AND SOVEREIGNTY OF UKRAINE, WHICH GERMANY, NATO, THE WEST HAVE ALL COMMITTED TO.
YOU JUST RETURNED FROM DAVOS WHERE YOU MUST HAVE BEEN HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH MANY OF THE OFFICIALS INVOLVED IN HELPING UKRAINE.
AND YOU MUST HAVE HEARD REMOTE FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE WAR RIGHT NOW BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE SM.
WELL, THE WAR LASTS LONGER THAN MOST OF THE EXPERTS.
EVEN EXPERTS HAVE EXPECTED.
AND THIS SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THE ESTIMATIONS THE UKRAINE, THEY FIGHT WITH HUGE BRAVERY.
PUTIN DID IT ALL WRONG.
HE UNDERESTIMATED THE POWER AND WILLINGNESS OF UKRAINE ARMY TO FIGHT.
HE OVERESTIMATED THE POWER OF HIS OWN ARMY.
HE UNDERESTIMATED THE SOLIDARITY GIVEN IN EUROPE AND THE TRANSALANTIC PARTNERSHIP, AND HE HOPED THAT HE WAS WELCOMED AS A LIBERATOR, BUT HE'S NOT.
THE UKRAINE PEOPLE SEE HIM AS AN AGGRESSOR.
SO HE GOT IT ALL WRONG, BUT WE MUST ADMIT THAT ALSO SOME OF OUR EXPERTS IN THE WEST ESTIMATED THE SITUATION WRONG, THE UKRAINE ARMY WITH THE SOLIDARITY OF THE WEST AND WITH THE WEAPONS, EUROPE AND THE U.S. AND CANADA ARE DELIVERING, THEY ARE REALLY DOING A GREAT JOB.
THIS IS DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY, DEFENDING THEIR DEMOCRACY, DEFENDING THEIR FREEDOM, IT'S A GREAT JOB.
MAKE NO MISTAKE, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE DYING THERE, YOUNG SOLDIERS, AND DEFINITELY ON BOTH SIDES, THEY HAD BIGGER PLANS FOR THEIR LIVES THAN DYING FOR PUTIN OR DYING IN THIS TERRIBLE WAR.
RIGHT NOW, THIS SITUATION SEEMS LIKE THIS WAR WILL ONGO OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.
MAYBE WEEKS, MAYBE MONTHS.
THIS MEANS WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR STRATEGY AS WELL.
WE HAVE TO DELIVER MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE, AND WE'RE DOING IT IN EUROPE AND THE U.S. AND IN GERMANY AS WELL.
AND WE HAVE TO GIVE ENERGY AND MONEY AS WELL TO UKRAINE TO SUPPORT THE COUNTRY IN THIS DIFFICULT PERIOD.
MR. VICE CHANCELLOR, YOU SAID SAID WE IN THE WEST GOT CERTAIN THINGS WRONG.
AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS SAID ABOUT 100 PEOPLE, CITIZEN SOLDIERS ARE BEING KILLED EVERY DAY RIGHT NOW.
YOU SAID IN APRIL, WE CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE SUPPORTED UKRAINE MILITARY MUCH EARLIER.
AND I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT DAYS OR WEEKS, BUT YEARS.
YOU HAVE TURNED YOUR MILITARY ON A DIME.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR POST-WAR HISTORY, GERMANY IS INVOLVED IN LETHAL AID TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.
BUT YOU STILL SAY IT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED EARLIER.
EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN AND HOW IT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED THE CURRENT STATUS ON THE GROUND.
WE HAVEN'T HELPED UKRAINE ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY IN MY PARTY, I'M FROM THE GREEN PARTY, THERE'S ALSO A STRONG ATTITUDE THAT WE WILL NOT DELIVER WEAPONS TO UKRAINE BECAUSE THE FEAR WAS THAT WE WOULD RAISE THE CONFLICT EVEN MORE OR FEED THE CONFLICT THERE IN THE DONBASS.
I PERSONALLY THOUGHT THIS WAS WRONG.
I HAD THIS ARGUMENT WITH MY OWN PARTY ONE YEAR AGO WHEN I VISITED UKRAINE, BUT THIS WAS THE OVERALL IDEA IN GERMANY THAT THIS WAS WRONG.
NOBODY KNOWS, OF COURSE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE DELIVERED MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE BEFORE, BUT DEFINITELY THE IDEA WAS THAT A WAR WOULD BE -- WOULD NOT HAPPENED, AND NOW IT'S HAPPENING, AND NOW THEY'RE DELIVERING THE WEAPONS FINE ENOUGH, BUT MAYBE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER THAT WE HAVE DONE IT BEFORE.
AND GERMANY IS SPENDING SOMETHING LIKE $100 BILLION TO MODERNIZE THE MILITARY AGAIN.
THAT'S A COMPLETE SHIFT ON YOUR MILITARY POLICY.
AT DAVOS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION SAID, AND I QUOTE, WE ARE DRAINING THE KREMLIN'S WAR MACHINE.
SO SHE'S SAYING THAT THE SANCTIONS ARE HAVING AN EFFECT, BUT AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT PUTIN IS STILL ABLE TO SELL OIL.
OIL IS VERY EXPENSIVE.
HE'S MAKING A GOOD PROFIT.
DO YOU FEEL CONFIDENT THAT HIS ABILITY TO WAGE THIS WAR IS BEING AFFECTED BY THE EU SANCTIONS, BY THE GLOBAL SANCTIONS?
YES, THE SANCTIONS ARE WORKING.
THEY ARE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, SO IT ALWAYS TAKES TIME.
BUT THINK ABOUT THE END OF THE SOVIET REPUBLIC.
THIS WAS MAINLY BECAUSE OF ECONOMIC DECREASE.
YES, OF COURSE THE ECONOMY IN RUSSIA IS STILL ONGOING, BUT ON A LEVEL LIKE 1980 OR SOMETHING.
SO THE LONGER IT TAKES, THE MORE THEY LOSE TRACK OF THE WORLD ECONOMY AND THE WORLD DEVELOPMENT.
SO THIS IS SEVERE DAMAGE TO THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, BUT OF COURSE, IT'S A BIG COUNTRY.
IT'S A COUNTRY FULL OF ENERGY, FOSSIL ENERGY, GAS, AND OIL.
THEY HAVE ENOUGH FOOD FOR THE PEOPLE AND THEIR SOLDIERS, SO THEY CAN GO ON FEEDING THE WAR OUT OF THEIR OWN RESOURCES FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.
SO YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY THAT OUR BANS ON WHATEVER ECONOMIC GOODS ARE DIRECT -- HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT FOR THEIR CAPABILITY TO LEAD THE WAR.
BUT AN INDIRECT IMPACT, THEY HAVE DEFINITELY.
SO THE LINE IS RIGHT.
AND ABOUT THE BAN ON OIL, WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A PROBLEM THERE BECAUSE OF COURSE IT'S RIGHT AND IT'S MORALLY NECESSARY THAT WE BAN OIL AND MAYBE LATER ON GAS AND OTHER PRODUCTS FROM RUSSIA, BUT BECAUSE THEY SELL IT ON THE WORLD MARKET, A BAN ON OIL, AS U.S. HAS TASKED AT THE END OF FEBRUARY, HAS INCREASED THE PRICES ON THE WAR MARKET.
SO PUTIN EARNS MORE MONEY WITH LESSER SELLING OF OIL.
AND THIS IS A PROBLEM, OF COURSE.
AND WE HAVE TO FIND A SOLUTION THERE, OTHERWISE, WE DESTROY WITH THE LEFT HAND BUT WIN WITH THE RIGHT HAND OR VICE VERSA.
SO SO THE BAN ON OIL HASN'T HAD H THE EFFECT WE HOPED SO FAR.
A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, YOU YOURSELF SAID THE RUSSIAN OIL EMBARGO BY THE EU WOULD ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN A COUPLE OF DAYS.
THEN WE HEAR FROM THE FT THAT THE HUNGARIAN PRIME MINISTER OIL BAN HAS RULED OUT THE EMBARGO OF RUSSIA AT NEXT WEEK'S SUMMIT OF LEADERS.
HE SENT THAT TO CHARLES MICHELLE, COUNCIL LEADER IN A LETTER.
AND A SPOKESPERSON TOLD ME A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT HUNGARY HAD NO ALTERNATIVE TO GAS AND OIL AT THE MOMENT.
SO IS HUNGARY GOING TO HOLD UP UNANIMITY IN THE EU?
BUT WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID IS IT MAY BE HAVING THE REVERSE EFFECT, THIS OIL EMBARGO.
WELL, THAT'S RIGHT.
WE HAVE A GREAT MAJORITY FOR A BAN ON OIL.
WITH ALL THE PROBLEMS I MENTIONED BEFORE IN EUROPE, BUT HUNGARY IS AGAINST IT.
AND THIS MUST BE A UNANIMOUS VOTE IN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL, SO THEREFORE I HOPE, AND I HOPED, THAT THE LEADERS WILL FIND A SOLUTION ON THE COUNCIL.
AND I KNOW THAT INTENSE TALKS ARE ONGOING WITH HUNGARY.
AND THEY GET A LOT OF OIL FROM RUSSIA.
SO SAY TOMORROW WE STOP, THIS WILL BANKRUPT HUNGARY.
I UNDERSTAND THAT PROBLEM, BUT WORKING ON THE PROBLEM CAN BE MIRRORED IN THE SANCTION PACKAGE.
SO SAYING WE HAVE A BAN ON OIL NOW, BUT SOME STATES HAVE MORE TIME.
THIS IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION.
THE QUESTION IS IS VICTOR OR HUNGARY WILLING TO STAY IN THE SOLIDARITY OF NATO AND THE TRANSALANTIC PARTNERSHIP.
AND RIGHT NOW, IT DOES NOT SEEM THAT WAY.
IF IT'S ABOUT FINDING A PRACTICAL SOLUTION FOR AN EXISTING PROBLEM, THIS CAN BE SOLVED.
IF IT'S ABOUT BARGAINING, THEN, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THE HUNGARIANS OR VICTOR ORBIN WILL NEGOTIATE.
YOU ARE ALSO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC AND CLIMATE AFFAIRS.
THE FEDERAL MINISTER.
I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME PRACTICALITIES.
YOU YOURSELF HAVING SECURING DEALS WITH COUNTRIES LIKE NORWAY, QATAR, IN ORDER TO REPLACE RUSSIAN GAS.
BUT ALSO, YOUR COUNTRY HAS DECIDED TO MOVE AWAY FROM NUCLEAR ENERGY.
WAS THAT SHORTSIGHTED?
WAS IT A MISTAKE FOR GERMANY TO SAY NO TO NUCLEAR ENERGY?
WE KNOW THE FINLAND PARTY HAS VOTED OVERWHELMINGLY TO ADOPT A PROSTANCE STOP.
I WOULD SAY OUR STRATEGY IS A VERY GOOD ONE, AND I THINK WE WILL HAVE A CHEAP AND AFFORDABLE ENERGY AND CLEAN ENERGY AND WE WILL BE VERY COMPETITIVE IN THE MARKETS BECAUSE THEY ARE FLEXIBLE, SO WE WILL INVENT THE NEW FORM OF ECONOMIC MODELS HERE IN GERMANY AND EUROPE.
COMING TO NUCLEAR ENERGY, WE HAVE NOW STARTED THREE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS RUNNING RAISED FOR 5% OF THE GERMAN ELECTRICITY PRODUCTION.
IT'S ONLY 5%, AND THIS IS -- I WOULDN'T SAY THIS IS NOTHING, BUT IT'S A VERY SMALL AMOUNT.
AND IF WE REPLACE THE OTHER NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS MAINLY BY RENEWABLES.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GREEN AND RENEWABLE AND SUSTAINABLE, AND YOU ARE THE GREEN PARTY.
YOU PLAN TO PHASE OUT NUCLEAR, WHICH IS CLEAN, ABOUT EIGHT OR TEN YEARS SOONER THAN YOU PLAN TO PHASE OUR DIRTY, HORRIBLE COAL.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
THIS IS THE PLAN THEY MADE, AND THE CONTRACTS ARE WRITTEN, AND I THINK WE CAN AND WE SHOULD STICK WITH THE CONTRACTS WITH THE FIRMS.
OTHERWISE, WE HAVE TO REBUILD THE ENTIRE ENERGY SYSTEM THAT WAS BUILT IN THE PAST YEAR.
SO IF YOU WOULD START FROM SCRATCH, MAYBE YOU HAVE SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT THE ORDER OF PHASING OUT.
I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THE DISCUSSION WOULD BE IN ANOTHER WAY, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW.
WITH EF THE RULES.
WE HAVE THE LAWS, AND WE HAVE A CLEAR PATH THAT WE WILL FOLLOW.
FINALLY, MR. VICE CHANCELLOR.
I GUESS I'M ASKING YOU TO PREDICT AS BEST AS YOU CAN WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN DOWN THE LINE.
HOW MUCH PAIN CAN YOUR CITIZENS TAKE, CAN OUR CITIZENS OF THE WORLD TAKE WITH THE SANCTIONS, INFLATION, RISE OF PRICES, WITH THE THREAT BECAUSE RUSSIA IS BLOCKADING VERY IMPORTANT QUANTITIES OF SUPPLIES.
WHEAT, A RECESSION PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOWN THE LINE.
WHAT IS YOUR BIG NIGHTMARE RIGHT NOW?
WELL, LOOKING AT THE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE MUST BE SERIOUS THAT WE ARE FACING A DIFFICULT SITUATION AND OF COURSE THIS IS ALSO THE CASE IN GERMANY AND IN THE U.S., WE HAVE HIGH INFLATION.
WE HAVE HIGH ENERGY PRICES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE AND A LOT OF COMPANIES, THEY ARE REALLY WORRIED IF THEY CAN PAY ALL THE PRICES.
THERE ARE SOLUTIONS OF COURSE.
INCREASED AMOUNT OF ENERGY AND STATE AIDS FOR THE TRANSFORMATION WE ARE ONGOING RIGHT NOW.
MAYBE THE CENTRAL BANKS CAN DO THEIR PART AS WELL.
WHAT REALLY WORRIES ME AND WHEN I THINK WE REALLY NEED SOME POLITICAL CONCENTRATION IS THE GLOBAL SITUATION.
YOU'RE RIGHT.
UKRAINE AND RUSSIA IS A GREAT SUPPLIER OF FOOD, OF WHEAT, ACTUALLY.
MOST OF THE WHEAT IS GOING TO A PENINSULA ON NORTH AFRICA.
IF PEOPLE ARE GETTING TO STARVE NEXT SUMMER.
THIS WINTER WOULD BE ALL RIGHT, BUT NEXT SUMMER WOULD BE A REALLY HORRIBLE SITUATION.
IT'S NOT A VERY STABLE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT THERE, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
SO WE ARE FACING MAYBE THE NEXT CRISIS, THE NEXT SECURITY CRISIS IN THESE COUNTRIES.
SO WE NEED MORE WHEAT ON THE MARKET.
WE HAVE TO KEEP THE MARKETS OPEN.
WE MAY BE -- WE NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THAT ALL THE WHEAT IN THE UKRAINE HAVE CAN HAVE SHIPPED OUT.
IF THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, THEN WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT INFLATION ALONE, BUT ABOUT A WORLD FOOD CRISIS, WHICH WILL LEAD TO A WORLD WIDE RECESSION.
WE ARE POLITICIANS, WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.
WE CAN DECIDE ABOUT OUR FATE.
SO FACING AN UNKNOWN PROBLEM IS THE BEGINNING OF SOLVING THE PROBLEM.
THAT'S REALLY FASCINATING.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
IT'S REALLY NICE TALKING TO YOU.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
ALL THE BEST.
I HAD STARTED BY ASKING THE VICE CHANCELLOR ABOUT TUESDAY'S MASS SHOOTING.
HISTORIAN HEATHER COX RICHARDSON WROTE THIS WEEK, QUOTE, AMERICA'S GUN FREE FOR ALL IS A SYMPTOM OF THE TAKEOVER OF OUR NATION BE A RADICAL EXTREME -- LETTERS FROM AMERICAN.
HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND THE FAILURE TO TACKLE GUN CONTROL.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.
HOW DID WE GET HERE?
IT IS A FACT, IS IT NOT, THAT A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS FAVOR SOME FORM OF GUN SAFETY REGULATIONS, CORRECT?
OH, YES.
SO BEGIN THAT A MAJORITY -- AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS FAVOR THESE KINDS OF THINGS, HOW DID WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE A MINORITY OF THE POPULATION, INCLUDING A GUN-OWNED MINORITY CONTROLS THE POLICIES IN WHICH WE ALL LIVE?
SO TAKE US BACK TO THE BEGINNING.
OBVIOUSLY, THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION IS CENTRAL TO THAT.
DID THEY ALWAYS HAVE THIS UNCOMPROMISING POSITION TOWARDS REGULATION OF FIREARMS?
NO, THEY DIDN'T.
THAT'S PART OF THE INTERESTING STORY OF HOW WE GOT TO THIS MOMENT.
THE NRA STARTS IN 1871.
IT STARTS FOR MEN WHO FOUGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR TO CONTINUE THEIR FIREARM SKILLS DOING THINGS LIKE HAVING SHOOTING GAMES AT TIN CANS FOR EXAMPLE.
AT THE SAME TIME, THERE WAS THE RISING OF SPORT OF SHOOTING FOR WHICH THERE WERE VERY LARGE PRIZES.
SO AMERICANS GET TOGETHER AND BEGIN TO HAVE SHOOTING COMPETITIONS THAT ARE UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION.
THAT ASSOCIATION IS DESIGNED NOT ONLY TO PROMOTE THE SPORT OF SHOOTING WITH, THE CAMARADERIE OF THE CAMPFIRE FROM THE CIVIL WAR DAYS AND ALSO GUN SAFETY.
WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, THE NRA WAS IN OUR COMMUNITY TEACHING SAFETY.
THAT CHANGES DRAMATICALLY IN THE 1980s.
WHY DID IT CHANGE AND HOW DID IT CHANGE?
THE STORY OF THE CHANGE IS AN INTERESTING ONE BECAUSE IT'S DEEPLY EMBEDDED IN OUR POLITICS.
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GUN SAFETY OR REGULATION IS THE IDEA THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT GUNS.
YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THAT ISSUE OFF.
IT'S VERY MUCH PART OF WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR AMERICAN POLITIC IN THE 1970s AND 1980s.
WHAT HAPPENED THEN WAS A DRAMATIC BACKLASH AGAINST THE NEW DEAL COALITION THAT PROVIDED A BASIC SAFETY NET AND PROMOTE INFRASTRUCTURE.
THAT WORLD WE HAD LIVED UNDER SINCE THE 1930s AND ESPECIALLY SINCE THE 1950s HAD PROTECTED CIVIL RIGHTS.
THAT BACKLASH TAKES SHAPE IN THIS IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN COWBOY WHO STANDS ALONE AGAINST A GRASPING GOVERNMENT, A GOVERNMENT THAT BY THE WAY IN THE 1870s WHEN THE COWBOY IMAGE ROSE WAS CALLED A SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT.
THAT WHOLE LANGUAGE IS NOT NEW.
THAT IMAGE OF THE GUN TOTING COWBOY TAKE ITS SHAPE FROM PEOPLE LIKE BARRY GOLD WATER WHO RUNS FOR PRESIDENT AS A REPUBLICAN AS A COWBOY.
IT'S THE IMAGE REAGAN PICKS UP.
WHAT THAT IMAGE DOES IS SOLIDIFY A POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT PUSHES AGAINST BUSINESS REGULATION PRIMARILY, TAX, THE IDEA OF INVESTMENT IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE, AND PART OF THAT ATTACK ON GOVERNMENT REGULATION FOCUSES ON THINGS LIKE CIVIL RIGHTS OF COURSE, BUT ALSO ON REGULATIONS ABOUT GUNS.
AND THAT IMAGE OF THE LOAN COWBOY IS REALLY THE IMAGE THAT COMES OUT OF THE 1980s.
YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE IN 19 # 7, THE BLOCK BUSTER IMAGE WAS THAT OF LUKE SKY WALKER WHO WAS THAT GUY TAKING ON THE EMPIRE.
A LOT OF AMERICANS ENVISION THEMSELVES AS THAT IN THAT PERIOD.
THAT'S WHEN IT COMES ABOUT PROTECTING THE SPORT OF SHOOTING, WHICH IS STILL A BIG SPORT IN AMERICA AND BECOMES ABOUT WHAT THEY CALL GUN RIGHTS, THE RIGHT OF THE INDIVIDUAL TO ACT AS HE ALMOST ALWAYS WISHES.
SO HOW DID IT GET TO BE THAT THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE THAT WE ARE NOW EXPERIENCING IN COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT THIS KIND OF VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY MASS VIOLENCE HAS BECOME SO PREVALENT AND THE POLITICAL SYSTEM SEEMS COMPLETELY UNABLE TO DEAL WITH IT.
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
IT'S CRAZY.
I WILL ANSWER THAT, BUT IT'S REALLY WORTH SITTING FOR A MOMENT WITH THE IDEA THAT WE ARE LITERALLY A COUNTRY IN WHICH OUR CHILDREN, OUR ELDERLY, OUR CHURCH-GOERS, ARE GUNNED DOWN, AND OUR SYSTEM SAYS, THIS IS THE PRICE OF FREEDOM, AS BILL O RILEY ONCE PUT IT.
THE FACT THAT WE GOT HERE WHERE WE HAVE LEGISLATORS SAYING THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN SAFETY REGULATIONS, AGAIN IS ABOUT POLITICS.
SO BEGINNING IN 1986, WE GET THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BEGINNING TO TALK ABOUT VOTER SUPPRESSION.
THEY CALL IT BALLOT INTEGRITY AT THE TIME, BUT THEY'RE EXPECTING TO THROW BLACK PEOPLE OFF THE ROLLS.
WE GET OPPOSITION TO THE MOTOR ACT OF 1983, WHICH ENABLES PEOPLE TO ENROLL AT VEHICLE REJS TRAGS PLACES.
WE INCREASINGLY GET THE FOCUS ON VOTER SUPPRESSION AND MAKING SURE ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE GET TO HAVE A SAY IN OUR SOCIETY.
NOW, AT THE SAME TIME, GERRYMANDERING IN THE STATES WHICH REALLY TAKES OFF AFTER 2010 WITH WHAT WAS CALLED OPERATION RED MAP, THE IDEA OF CONTROLLING STATE LEGISLATURES BY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN SUCH A WAY THEY COULD REDISTRICT THOSE STATES TO FAVOR REPUBLICANS TOOK OFF AFTER 2010 AND THEN OF COURSE WE GET A NUMBER OF SUPREME COURT DECISIONS LIKE THE CITIZENS UNITED DECISION THAT ENABLES CORPORATIONS TO POUR MONEY INTO POLITICAL CONTESTS AND SHELBY VERSUS HOLDER DECISION THAT CUTS BACK ON THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
THOSE THINGS ENABLE PEOPLE LIKE THE NRA TO FUNNEL MONEY INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND ALSO MAKE SURE THE MAJORITY REALLY DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO INFLUENCE THE DIRECTION OF OUR COUNTRY.
IF YOU THROW ON TOP OF THAT THE SENATE AND THE FACT THAT THE SNIT FILIBUSTER WHICH HAS BEEN SO EXTRAORDINARILY ABUSED OF LATE, IT MEANS THAT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DON'T GET TO HAVE A SAY IN THEIR GOVERNMENT.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE HORROR THAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN THE COUNTRY, PART OF THE FURY, I THINK, IS THAT THE MURDER OF OUR CHILDREN AND OUR ELDERLY AND OUR CHURCH-GOERS ILLUSTRATES THAT WE ARE IN FACT EXPERIENCING A TYRANNY OF THE MINORITY, AND A LOT OF THE MAJORITY IS NO LONGER WILLING TO PUT UP WITH THAT.
FORMER PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY A GUN.
HIS PRESS SECRETARY WAS PARALYZED FOR LIFE.
TIM McCARTHY AND A POLICE OFFICER, AND AFTER THAT, THEN CONGRESSMAN SCHUMER, NOW SENATOR INTRODUCED LEGISLATION KNOWN AS THE BRADY HAND GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION ACT.
NOW, RONALD REAGAN ACTUALLY ENDORSED THIS BILL, BUT THE NRA OPPOSED IT.
THERE HAVE BEEN SIMILAR INSTANCES WHERE MEMBERS OF THE NRA CAME FORWARD AND SAID TRIGGER LOCKS ARE ACCEPTABLE.
BUT SOMEHOW PEOPLE CONTINUE TO BE KILLED.
THE QUESTION IS IS THE NRA MORE POWERFUL THAN THE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO REPRESENT ALL OF THESE PEARS?
HOW DOES A SMALL INTEREST GROUP YIELD SO MUCH POWER OVER PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY?
DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
IT DOES.
IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AT THE NRA, THEY'RE EXTRAORDINARILY IMPRESSIVE AT SWAYING LAWMAKERS.
NONETHELESS, THERE'S PLENTY OF LOB BYIESTS THAT DO THAT SORT OF THING.
NONETHELESS, I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT GUN SAFETY ISSUES IN AMERICA, THE CONFLUENCE OF THE INTERESTS OF THE NRA, WHICH BY THE WAY REALLY NO LONGER REPRESENTS THE AVERAGE GUN OWNER.
THE NRA RUPT REPTS THE GUNS ARMS INDUSTRY APP AMMUNITIONS.
THEY ARE BOTH EXPENSIVE AND SALES ARE OFF THE CHARTS.
SO YOU HAVE THE INTEREST OF THE NRA AS A BODY THAT REPRESENTS THE GUN INDUSTRY.
YOU ALSO HAVE THE CONFLUENCE OF OUR POLITICAL MOMENT WITH THAT.
THE HELLER DECISION THAT JUSTICE -- VERY FAMOUSLY WROTE THE OPINION FOR IN 2008 SAID THE GOVERNMENT COULD NOT REGULATE UNDER THE TERMS THAT -- THE CASE THAT WERE IN THAT CASE, AND SCALIA WAS FAMOUS FOR HIS INSISTENCE ON WHAT HE CALLED AN ORIGINALIST INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
THE WHOLE POINT OF ORIGINALISM AND THE JUSTICE AND THE SUPREME COURT IS TO GET BEYOND REGULATION, TO GET BEFORE REGULATION TO SAY THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION DIDN'T HAVE THIS SORT OF REGULATION OF GUNS AND BUSINESS AND CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE MANY THINGS THE MODERN DAY REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE.
SO THE IDEA OF REGULATION OF GUNS IS NOT JUST ABOUT GUNS.
IT'S A WEDGE ISSUE THAT TALKS MUCH MORE LARGELY ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT, ABOUT WHO GETS TO HAVE A SAY IN OUR GOVERNMENT AND WHAT THAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO.
AT THE SAME TIME, THE PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THAT HAVE THAT CULTURAL IMAGE OF THE COWBOY.
AND THE IDEA OF HAVING YOUR GUNS -- WHICH AGAIN, I GREW UP WITH PEOPLE HAVING GUNS ON THE BACK OF THEIR PICKUP TRUCKS.
IT WAS NOT PART OF PEOPLE'S POLITICAL IDENTITY.
IT BECOMES SO AFTER A POLITICAL MOVEMENT AFTER 1980 AS THIS IMAGE OF A COWBOY STANDING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT WHICH DOES REGULATE WHAT MEMBERS OF OUR SOCIETY CAN DO.
WE'RE IN THIS WEIRD MOMENT, WHICH IS A NEW MOMENT.
IT'S VERY MUCH A NEW MOMENT IN OUR SOCIETY BECAUSE NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE NRA BUT BECAUSE OF THE CONFLUENCE OF THE INTEREST OF WHAT IS NOW THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION WITH THE POLITICAL MOMENT THAT SAYS THAT ANY KIND OF REGULATION IS BAD, AND THOSE TWO THINGS HAVE MARRIED AND THEY HAVE PRODUCED THIS AMERICAN IDENTITY THAT DEPENDS ON THE IDEA THAT A SINGLE PERSON CAN BE ARMED TO THE TEETH AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT THE REST OF US CAN DO ABOUT IT.
SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THIS IS NO LONGER JUST A POLITICAL ISSUE.
IT'S BECOME A MATTER OF IDENTITY?
AND SOME ARGUE, JUST TO BE FRANK ABOUT IT, IT'S BECOME PART OF WHITE MALE IDENTITY, OR WHITE NATIONALIST IDENTITY.
IF FREEDOM IS SO PROFOUND, WHY ARE SOME OF THE SAME PEOPLE MOST LIKELY TO OWN GUNS WITH THE MOST WILLING TO LIMIT ACCESS TO ABORTION?
JUST TO BE BRUTALLY FRANK ABOUT IT.
WHY ARE THEY FAR MORE LIKELY TO OWN A GUN, BUT WHY DO EVANGELICALS ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO DISFAVOR ABORTION RIGHTS?
SO HOW IS THERE THIS BELIEF IN FREEDOM, BUT THAT DOESN'T EXTEND TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS TO CONTROL THEIR BODIES?
SO I THINK THAT YOU ARE MISSING THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN LONGIC AND IMAGE.
SO LOGICALLY, OF COURSE, WHICH IS WHERE SOMEBODY LIKE BARRY GOLD WATER WOULD HAVE BEEN WHERE HE SAID, I DON'T WANT TO GOVERNMENT TO REGULATE CIVIL RIGHTS.
I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO REGULATE WOMEN'S RIGHTS BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN A LIBERTARIAN BRANCH OF FREEDOM.
THAT'S NO LONGER WHERE WE ARE.
WE'RE A GENERATION FURTHER ALONG THAN THAT.
ONE OF THE THINGS SO CRUCIAL ABOUT THAT COWBOY IMAGE WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE 1980s AND POST1980s IS THAT IMAGE WAS NEVER ABOUT FREEDOM.
THAT WASN'T EVEN REALLY PART OF THE LANGUAGE WHEN IT ROSE IN THE LATE 1860s IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.
IT WAS THE IMAGE OF A MAN ALMOST ALWAYS UNMARRIED AND A WHITE MAN.
COWBOYS WERE HISTORICALLY MEN OF COLOR.
THAT MAN LIVED IN WHAT I CALL A WORLD OF BROMANCE.
THAT IS THERE ARE NOT WOMEN, AND THE COWBOY IS THIS INDEPENDENT GUY WHO DOESN'T NEED THE GOVERNMENT FOR ANYTHING.
WHICH IS NOT TRUE.
THE GOVERNMENT IS MORE INVESTED IN THE AMERICAN PLAINS THAN IT IS IN ANYTHING IN THE COUNTRY.
AT THE SAME TIME, HE'S USING HIS GUN, AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN A COWBOY SETTING BECAUSE IT SPOOKS THE COW.
HE'S USING HIS GUN TO PROTECT HIS PEOPLE AGAINST THE BAD GUYS.
AND THOSE BAD GUYS ARE INDIGENOUS AMERICANS, MEXICAN AMERICANS, SOMETIMES CHINESE AMERICANS, AND MEXICANS AS WELL.
THERE IS ENCODED IN THAT COWBOY IMAGERY, NOT ONLY RACISM BUT A BRAND OF SEXISM.
AND THAT DOVE TAIL BEAUTIFULLY WITH THE RISE OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY IN THAT SAME PERIOD.
SO PEOPLE WHO EMBRACE THAT COWBOY IMAGE NOW, AND WE KNOW ABOUT 3% OF AMERICANS OWN 50% OF OUR GUNS.
THEY'RE NOT EMBRACING A LIBERTARIAN WORLD WHERE THEY SAY, WOMEN CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
THEY'RE LOOKING AT AN IMAGE IN WHICH THEY'RE THE ONES ON TOP AND GET TO EXERCISE DOMINANCE OVER WITH IMAND PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO STOP THEM FROM DOING T.
THEN IT SEEMS VERY LOGICAL THAT YOU TAKE AWAY WOMEN'S RIGHTS AT THE SAME TIME YOU TAKE AWAY YOUR OWN RIGHT TO OWN AR-15s.
TO THOSE THAT CONSIDER IT UNACCEPTABLE, WHAT DO THEY DO?
HOW IS THAT ADDRESSED?
I THINK YOU HAVE PUT YOUR THUMB ON A CRUCIAL PROBLEM, AND THAT IS IN THE 1980s, THE BEGINNING TO START THIS SNOW BALL ROLLING OF BEING AN AMERICAN IS BEING A GOOD COWBOY HAS NOW MOVED BEYOND THE POLITICAL CLASS THAT STARTED THAT.
I THINK THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP IS NOW RUNNING BEHIND THOSE PEOPLE WHO INSIST THEIR GUN OWNERSHIP IS CRUCIAL TO THEIR IDENTITY.
THAT'S A CRISIS.
OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY CREATE THIS KIND OF MINORITY RULE.
WE HAVE GOTTEN HERE BY A SERIES OF DELIBERATE DECISIONS, AND THEY ARE DELIBERATE DECISIONS THAT HAVE MANAGED TO GIVE US A SYSTEM THAT FRANKLY DOES NO LONGER WORK.
THINK ABOUT IT REALISTICALLY, ARE AMERICANS GOING TO PUT UP WITH MINORITY RULE?
EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE IN OUR HISTORY, WE HAVE GOTTEN A PRESIDENT WHO WAS ELECTED WITH THE MINORITY OF POPULAR VOTE, RUTHER FORT B. HAYNES.
BUT IT'S HAPPENING ALL THE TIME NOW.
WE NEED TO FIX THIS.
THE WAY WE FIX IT IS FOR PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT IT TO SPEAK UP AND DEMAND THAT WE FIX IT.
AND OBVIOUSLY THAT MEANS VOTING, BUT IT ALSO MEANS TALKS ABOUT HOW OUR SYSTEM WORKS AND WHO WE ARE AS AMERICANS.
THAT WE ARE NOT COWBOYS.
WE ARE NOT SHAME.
WE'RE THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY AFTER SHANE RIDES OFF AND WE MOVE THAT PERSON OFF STAGE, AND WE WRITE OUR GOVERNMENT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT IN FACT DOES PROTECT OUR RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PER SUIT OF HAPPINESS, AND OUR GOVERNMENT IS A GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, AND FOR THE PEOPLE.
THAT'S OUR HISTORY.
THAT'S WHO WE ARE, NOT THIS SKEWED MOMENT THAT HAS BEEN PUT IN PLACE IN THE 20th CENTURY BY A MINORITY REALLY REACHING ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1929 WHEN THEY BEGAN TO MESS AROUND WITH THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
THIS IS AN UNUSUAL MOMENT.
WHAT I'M HOPING WE CAN DO IS RECLAIM THE MEANING OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
WE CAN ONLY DO THAT IF EVERYONE PITCHES IN.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.
> NOW, OF COURSE IN UKRAINE WHERE A FIERCE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY IS UNDERWAY, RUSSIAN FORCES HAVE RAMPED UP ATTACKS ACROSS THE DONETSK REGIONS.
THEY DESCRIBE THIS SITUATION AS VERY DIFFICULT AND SAY TRAR TROOPS ARE OUTNUMBERS AND OUTGUNS.
NICK WALSH TRAVELS TO IZIUM.
HERE'S HIS REPORT.
Reporter: PUTIN WOULD LEAVE LITTLE OF WHAT HE CLAIMED TO LIBERATE.
AN ARTILLERY DRILL HAS BEEN RAGING FOR DAYS, TORCHING AROUND THE VITAL RUSSIAN-HELD TIME OF IZIUM.
THESE UKRAINIAN TROOPS DUG IN IN POINT HAVE A CLEAR VIEW OF THE DAMAGE BELOW, BUT ALSO THEIR ENEMY.
SO THE RUSSIANS ARE JUST A KILOMETER ON THE BROW OF THIS HILL IN THAT DIRECTION.
THIS UNIT, ONLY HERE TWO DAYS BUT SAY THEY HAVE ALREADY DESTROYED A RUSSIAN TANK.
YES, THEY PLAY TO THE CAMERAS, BUT IT'S PRETTY CLEAR UP HERE THEIR MORALE IS SKY-HIGH.
THEY ARE EXPOSED, BUT READY.
KEEN TO SHOW OFF, ACTUALLY GLEEFUL AT THE INTERNATIONAL MENU OF WEAPONS THEY HAVE BEEN SENT, ALMOST A SILLY AMOUNT.
THESE SWEDISH ANTITANK MUNITIONS AND OF COURSE A BRITISH END LAW.
THEN, FROM OUT OF THE GRASS, A GERMAN ONE, WHICH THEY PARTICULARLY LIKE, A POLISH GRENADE, NO TRAINING ON THEM, JUST PRACTICAL USE, THEY JOKE, GIVING THEM THE WIDEST EXPERIENCE OF ANTITANK WEAPONS IN EUROPE.
RAVING ALSO WHAT THE RUSSIANS LEFT, THERMAL OPTICS.
AND A SOVIET ERA ANTITANK WEAPON THAT THEY WIND UP LIKE A TELEPHONE.
YET STILL, THE RUSSIANS PERSIST, EVEN AS THE PRISONERS THESE TROOPS HAVE TAKEN HAVE REVEALED HOW YOUNG THE SOLDIERS THEY'RE FIGHTING ARE.
IN THE VILLAGE BELOW, THE ENDLESS SHELLING IS FLUSHING THE REMAINING LIFE OUT.
THIS WOMAN SAID TELLING ME HER NAME WOULD MAKE NO DIFFERENCE.
THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY'LL GO OR WHAT, IF ANYTHING, THEY CAN COME BACK TO.
JUST THAT LIFE HAS NO SPACE LEFT HERE.
CORRESPONDENT NICK PATTON WALSH IN IZIUM IN EASTERN UKRAINE.
NEXT, AS THE REPORTS OF RAPE MOUNT, ONE PERSON WAS NOT IN THE LEAST BIT SURPRISED.
THE WINNER OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2018.
FOR THE PAST THREE DECADES, HE'S TREATED VICTIMS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN HIS HOMELAND, THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO.
HE JOINED ME THIS WEEK TO TALK ABOUT RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR, HIS BOOK, AND ALSO CONTINUING THIS HARD WORK DESPITE THE THREATS ON HIS LIFE.
JUST TO NOTE, THIS CONVERSATION FOCUSES ON THESE DIFFICULT TOPICS.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
I JUST WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU TO PUT YOUR CAREER IN CONTEXT.
AT ONE POINT, YOU WANTED TO HAVE A PEDIATRICIAN, BUT INSTEAD YOU BECAME AN ON CITY TRIGS.
WHAT WAS IT THAT CAUSED YOU TO CHOOSE THAT FIELD?
WHAT I FINISHED MY STUDY AND I BECOME MEDICAL DOCTOR, I DISCOVERED ANOTHER THING.
THERE I DISCOVER THAT WOMEN WERE DYING GIVE BIRTH.
AND THIS WAS TOTALLY, FOR ME, UNACCEPTABLE.
I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO ABOUT YOUR WORK, WHICH DEALS WITH THE CONSEQUENCE OF RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR.
AND I KNOW YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH IT IN THE DRC.
HOW WAS IT BEING USED IN THE CONFLICT THAT RAVAGED YOUR COUNTRY?
AFTER I WAS 30, I WENT BACK IN MY COUNTRY AND WORKED AS AN OBSTETRICIAN.
I WAS HAPPY WITH WHAT I WAS DOING.
IN 1996, WHEN THE WAR STARTED IN CONGO, I DISCOVERED WITH THE PATHOLOGY IS RAPE WITH EXTREME VIOLENCE.
IT WAS FOR ME THE FIRST TIME TO SEE THAT PEOPLE COULD RAPE, AND AFTER TO RAPE, TO DESTROY THE GENITAL OF WOMEN.
AND I WAS AN OBSTETRICIAN AND GYNECOLOGIST IF N THE REGION.
SO I START TO TREAT WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED WITH EXTREME VIOLENCE.
THIS IS ANOTHER STEP OF MY LIFE.
WHY DO YOU BELIEVE, FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, THAT MILITANTS, SOLDIERS USE RAPE AS A WEAPON?
IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A SEXUAL CRIME ALONE.
IT'S A MUCH DEEPER ISSUE OF TORTURE AND CONTROL.
WHEN I SAW THE FIRST CASE IN MY COUNTRY, I JUST THINK THAT IT WAS JUST PEOPLE WHO LOSE CONTROL WHO WERE DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT SLOWLY, WHEN WE START TO TALK WITH WOMEN, WE DISCOVERED THAT EACH GROUP WERE USING HIS OWN STRATEGY OF RAPE, AND WE SAW THAT IT WAS MASSIVE, AND SYSTEMATIC.
SO YOU CAN'T BE METHODIC, SYSTEMATIC, WITHOUT GETTING A PLAN.
THERE WE CONCLUDE THAT RAPE WAS USED AS A STRATEGY OF WAR, AS A WEAPON OF WAR, AND THE BODY OF WOMEN BECOME THE BATTLEFIELD OF THE DIFFERENT ARMY GROUPS.
LET ME JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE AT THE MOMENT.
WHEN WE WERE THERE, WE HEARD STORIES THAT RUSSIAN SOLDIERS WERE RAPING UKRAINIAN WOMEN IN THE TOWNS.
NOW WE HEAR FROM THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE, I'M GOING TO READ IT TO YOU.
TODAY IN JUST ONE HOUR, TEN REPORTS OF RAPE BY THE RUSSIAN OCCUPIERS, INCLUDING EIGHT CHILDREN WERE RECEIVED FROM NEWLY LIBERATED REGIONS IN CARR KHARKIV.
YESTERDAY, AMONG THE CHILDREN, TWO 10-YEAR-OLD BOYS AND A 1-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO DIED OF HIS INJURIES.
NOW, BECAUSE OF YOUR EXPERIENCE, YOU HAVE RECENTLY SAID YOU ARE NOT SURPRISED BY THE TALES OF RAPE.
BUT WHY NOT?
EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHERE WAR, CONFLICT, ARMOR CONFLICT IS HAPPENING, RAPE IS USED.
AND I JUST, IN FEBRUARY, I SAID THAT WE SHOULD BE AWARE AND TRY TO PREVENT RAPE IN UKRAINE.
AND OF COURSE, I WAS SURE BECAUSE OF SO.
IN 2017, I WAS IN CONTACT WITH WOMEN OF UKRAINE FROM DONBASS WHO WERE RAPED DURING THE FIRST INVASION OF RUSSIA FOR WHEN THE WAR START AGAIN, WE ADVERTISE THAT IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN, AND REALLY, THE VICTIMS NEED TO BE SUPPORTED AS SOON AS WE CAN, AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
WE CAN'T WAIT LONG TO HELP THEM.
DOCTOR, AS YOU KNOW, THE SPECIAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE UKRAINE SLAF I CAN'T DID PUT IN THE LAW THAT RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR WAS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
IT'S BEEN AJUDE KATED AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL, AND YET IT'S HAPPENED IN UKRAINE, IN PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY, IT'S HAPPENED TO THE WOMEN ENSLAVED BY ISIS.
YOU TALK IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT IT IN PART BEING USED TO DEMORALIZE THE MALE FIGHTERS, THAT THE SOLDIERS DO THIS, OR THE MILITIAS DO THIS TO DEMORALIZE THEIR FIGHTING MEN.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
OF COURSE.
I THINK WHEN THEY USE RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR, THEY ARE USING A DIFFERENT KIND OF TECHNIQUE TO DESTROY THE MORAL AND EVEN TO TRY TO DESTROY THE MORAL OF TROOPS.
AND FOR THIS, I HAVE REALLY -- I HAVE TALKED WITH SOME SYRIAN YOUNG MEN WHO WERE IN THE RAREA OF SYRIA, AND WHAT THEY TOLD ME IS IT'S A WAY TO DEMORALIZE TROOPS AND DESTROY ALL CONFIDENCE IN MEN WHEN IT'S HAPPENED.
AND WHAT THESE GUYS FROM SYRIA TOLD ME WAS REALLY THAT IT'S BECAUSE WHEN SOLDIERS WITH RAPING THE WOMEN, THEY ARE JUST CALLING THEM SO THEY CAN FOLLOW WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEIR OWN WIVES.
AND AFTER THIS, THEY TOLD ME, WE WILL NOT EVER TO FIGHT AGAIN.
IT'S TO HUMILIATE AND DESTROY ALL THE CONFIDENCE IN THE SO-CALLED ENEMY, AND IT'S REALLY VERY EFFECTIVE.
WOW.
THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE STORY.
BY CONTRAST, YOU WRITE ABOUT A PARLIAMENTARIAN LEADING A GROUP DURING THE WAR, AND YOU TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY AND THAT IT ACTUALLY DID WORK.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT STORY?
YEAH.
IN 2014, WHAT SHOCKED ME WHEN I TREAT FOR THE FIRST TIME A BABY, AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN OUR AREA.
I DISCOVERED THAT IT WAS A PARLIAMENTARIAN WHO WAS LEADING AN ARMY, AND THE WAY TO DO THINGS WAS TO RAPE, KIDNAP CHILDREN, BABIES, AND RAPE THEM.
SO I TRY TODAY STOP HIM, BUT I COULDN'T GET HIM TO BE ARRESTED.
BUT ONE DAY, I MET SOLDIERS WHO WAS A JUDGE, A MILITARY JUDGE, AND THIS SOLDIER, I TOLD HIM THE STORY.
SO HE TOLD ME, DOCTOR, I WILL DO MY BEST.
THIS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
WE CAN'T LET IT UNPUNISHED.
AND HE TOOK A DECISION TO ARREST THIS GUY JUST ONE WEEK AFTER THE RAPE OF THE CHILDREN UNDER FIVE YEARS STOP IN THIS VILLAGE.
UNTIL TODAY, WE DON'T HAVE ANY CASE FROM THIS VILLAGE.
SO I THINK JUSTICE VERY IMPORTANT.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO LET IMPUNITY REIGN IS JUST TO LET WOMEN SUFFER.
WE NEED REALLY JUSTICE BECAUSE THIS CASE SHOW CLEAR THAT WITHOUT JUSTICE, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO STOP THIS KIND OF ATROCITIES.
LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT FROM YOUR BOOK, THE POWER OF WOMEN.
I JUST WANT TO READ WHAT YOU WRITE IN THE INTRODUCTION.
MY WORK IS LONG-TERM AND SOMETIMES FRUSTRATINGLY SLOW.
AS A DOCTOR, I CAN EXAMINE A PATIENT, DIAGNOSE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM, AND THEN WORK TO SOLVE IT THROUGH TREATMENT OR SURGERY.
AS A CAMPAIGNER, I FACE A STRUGGLE TO CHANGE MINDS, ATTITUDES, AND BEHAVIORS.
IT'S A BATTLE NOT WITH DISEASE OR ANATOMICAL FAILURE, BUT WITH FAR MORE STUBBORN ADVERSARIES.
WHERE DO YOU GET THE STRENGTH TO CONTINUE?
BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT THE WOMEN WHO INSPIRE YOU.
YEAH, EXACTLY.
BUT WHEN IT CAME TO CAMPAIGN OR TO TRY TO STOP THE RAPE IN OUR SOCIETY, THIS IS REALLY SOMETIMES VERY COMPLICATED BECAUSE THE ATROCITIES OF MANY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT WOMEN BELONG TO THEM, THEY CAN USE THEM AS THEY WANT, WE ARE IN A -- SOCIETY, WHERE REALLY THERE IS NOT EQUALITY BETWEEN WOMEN AND MEN.
AND WHEN MEN GROW UP THINKING THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT ON THE BODY OF WOMEN, THIS IS THE REALLY COMPLETELY WRONG, AND IT'S DESTROYING OUR SOCIETY.
SO WHEN I STARTED WORKING WITH WOMEN, WHAT I DISCOVER IS WOMEN ARE REALLY VERY STRONG, AND WOMEN ARE NOT STRONG FOR THEMSELVES.
THEY'RE STRONG ALSO FOR OUR SOCIETY.
AND FOR ME, TO GO ON DOING WHAT I'M DOING AND WHEN I CAN SEE THAT EVEN IF THEY -- THE WOMEN GO THROUGH TERRIBLE THINGS, BUT THEY STILL WORKING FOR OTHERS WITH LIFE.
I THINK THAT THIS IS WONDERFUL FOR ME AND IS REALLY SOMETHING PUSHING ME TO GO ON IN WHAT I'M DOING BECAUSE I THINK THAT I JUST FEEL THAT I'M REALLY VERY SMALL IF I CAN COMPARE TO WHAT WOMEN ARE AND HOW STRONG THEY ARE.
IT'S GREAT TO HAVE SUCH A SUPPORTER AS YOURSELF OBVIOUSLY.
AND THE WOMEN IN TURN HAVE BEEN PROTECTING YOU, I UNDERSTAND, BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE HAD SOME SIX ATTEMPTS ON YOUR LIFE BECAUSE OF THE WORK YOU DO.
WHO ON EARTH WOULD WANT TO STOP YOU DOING THIS WORK?
IT'S TRUE.
I THINK THAT WHEN I WAS ATTACKED IN MY HOUSE AND MY FRIEND JOSEPH WAS KILLED, THIS WAS A TERRIBLE SITUATION FOR ME.
AND I DECIDED TO LEAVE MY COUNTRY.
BUT WHO BROUGHT ME BACK, IT WAS WOMEN OF IDRY.
THEY DECIDE THEY WANT TO GET ME BACK, AND WHAT THEY DID WAS JUST ENORMOUS BECAUSE THEY WROTE TO MY PRESIDENT, HE DIDN'T ANSWER, THEY WROTE TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE EN, HE DIDN'T ANSWER.
SO THEY DECIDE TO COME EAT FRIDAY TO SELL FRUIT AND VEGETABLES AT THE HOSPITAL AND GIVE EACH FRIDAY $50 TO PAY MY TICKET BACK FROM BOSTON TO CONGO.
AND WHEN THEY START TO DO IT, I COULD NOT BELIEVE.
BUT WHEN IT HAPPENED THREE TIMES, I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN WOMEN DECIDE TO DO THINGS, NO ONE CAN STOP THEM.
SO I JUST DECIDED TO RETURN IN MY COUNTRY AND GO ON WORKING WITH THEM.
AND I'M SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO MEET GO ON DOING WHAT I'M DOING, IT'S ONLY BECAUSE IMPUNITY REIGNS IN OUR REGION.
IT MUST BE THEM WHO ARE TRYING TO PUT AN END ON MY LIFE AND THREATEN ME, TRYING TO SILENCE ME, BUT I THINK THAT WITH WOMEN, WE ARE SURE THAT JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL.
WHAT AN AMAZING STORY.
DR. DENNIS MCUAGY.
THE POWER OF WOMEN IS YOUR LATEST BOOK, AND YOU'VE REALLY GOT AN AMAZING MISSION.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
IT'S A TRULY INSPIRATIONAL TALE FROM A MODERN HERO.
> FINALLY TONIGHT, SOME OLD FAVORITES TAKING ANOTHER CHANCE ON THE STAGE.
♪
THAT'S RIGHT.
ABBA IS BACK.
FOUR YEARS SINCE THEY BROKE UP.
AGO ME THAT, BENNY, AND ANNY FREED ARE BELTING OUT DISCO ANTHEMS AGAIN.
KICKING OFF A NEW SHOW IN THE LONDON ARENA TONIGHT.
IF YOU'RE THINKING THEY LOOK PRETTY GOOD FOR A BAND IN THEIR 70s, IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE HOLOGRAMS.
THE AVENUE TARS WILL ROCK DIGITAL DESIGNS AS THEY PERFORM NEW MUSIC AND OLD FAVORITES.
> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR ON PBS.
AND JOIN US NEXT TIME.
♪ DANCING QUEENS, FEEL THE BEAT FROM THE T♪