May 28, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ISRAELI TANKS MOVE INTO CENTRAL RAFAH AGAINST BIDEN'S ADVICE.

ARE THERE ANY RED LINES?

CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND HAS THE LATEST.

>>> AND -- >> UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE, AND SELF-DEFENSE INCLUDES ALSO THE RIGHT TO STRIKE TARGETS OUTSIDE UKRAINE, INCLUDING LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS IN RUSSIA.

>> NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG ON CHANGING THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT TO STOP RUSSIA'S ADVANCE IN UKRAINE.

>>> THEN, ONE OF THIS YEAR'S BIG ELECTIONS AND SOUTH AFRICAN INSURGENT LEADER PARTY SONGEZO ZIBI HOPES TO LEAD THE WE'VE DISSATISFACTION.

HOW BEEBAN KIDRON'S REGULATIONS ARE IMPACTING AMERICA AND MORE.

>>> AND LATER -- >> YOU HAVE TO INVEST IN A COMMUNITY IF YOU WANT THOSE FOLKS.

>> MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH LUIS MIRANDA, ACTIVIST, FATHER OF LIN-MANUEL ABOUT TRANSFORMATIVE MOMENTS.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

EYEWITNESSES REPORT ISRAELI TANKS ARE MOVING IN ON CENTRAL RAFAH FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE ASSAULT ON THE CITY BEGAN IN EARLY MAY.

THIS COMES AFTER A DEADLY AIR STRIKE THERE THAT KILLED AT LEAST 45 PEOPLE AND INJURED MORE 200, THAT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CALLED A TRAGIC ERROR.

GLOBAL CONDEMNATION WAS SWIFT.

FRANCE, THE EU AND OTHER GOVERNMENTS CALLED ON ISRAEL TO IMMEDIATELY HALT ALL RAFAH OPERATIONS AS THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE ORDERED ON FRIDAY.

THE WHITE HOUSE CALLS THE ATTACK HEARTBREAKING, BUT WILL IT SHUT DOWN THE FLOW OF OFFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL?

HERE PRESIDENT BIDEN SETS OUT A BRIGHT RED LINE WHEN SPEAKING WITH CNN EARLIER THIS MONTH.

>> THEY GO INTO RAFAH, I'M NOT SUPPLYING THE WEAPONS THAT HAVE BEEN USED HISTORICALLY TO DEAL WITH RAFAH, TO DEAL WITH THE CITIES, TO DEAL WITH THAT PROBLEM.

>> CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND IS IN JERUSALEM, AND HE HAS THE LATEST.

JEREMY, LOOK, PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS VERY CLEAR, AND IT APPEARS THAT NONETHELESS, SOMETHING IS GOING ON INSIDE RAFAH.

DO YOU HAVE CONFIRMATION OF AN ESCALATION THERE?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY ACCORDING TO EYEWITNESSES ON THE GROUND, EXCUSE ME, IS CERTAINLY ISRAELI TANKS FURTHER WEST INTO RAFAH IN THE CENTER OF THE CITY, FURTHER WEST THAN WE HAVE EVER SEEN THEM SO FAR.

AND THAT CERTAINTY MARKS AN ESCALATION OR ADVANCEMENT OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY OFFENSIVE IN THAT CITY.

THIS COMES, OF COURSE, JUST DAYS AFTER WE SAW THAT STRIKE IN WESTERN RAFAH THAT RESULTED IN THE DEATHS OF AT LEAST 45 PEOPLE.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY TODAY TRYING TO PROVIDE SOME CLARITY, SENSE OF TRANSPARENCY ABOUT HOW THEY ARE ADDRESSING THAT, SAYING THAT THEY ARE STILL INVESTIGATING THAT STRIKE, THAT THIS STRIKE WAS CARRIED OUT USING TWO SMALL MUNITIONS.

BUT THEY ARE INSISTING THAT IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THOSE MUNITIONS ALONE THAT IGNITED THE BLAZE THAT RESULTED IN SO MANY DEATHS, IN ADDITION TO THE EXPLOSION ITSELF.

BUT THEY AREN'T PROVIDING MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT ELSE COULD HAVE CAUSED THAT BLAZE, OTHER THAN SUGGESTING THE POSSIBILITY OF A SECONDARY EXPLOSION CAUSED BY OTHER MUNITIONS IN THE AREA.

THEY DIDN'T PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THAT, HOWEVER.

WHAT IS CLEAR, THOUGH, FROM THE DRONE FOOTAGE THAT THEY PROVIDED OF THIS STRIKE IS THAT IT TOOK PLACE JUST FEET AWAY FROM WHERE WE KNOW THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF DISPLACED PALESTINIANS LIVING IN SOME OF THESE CONTAINER-LIKE STRUCTURES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF WESTERN RAFAH.

AND CHRISTIANE, WHAT IS ALSO CLEAR, BEYOND THE MILITARY MOVES THAT WE'RE SEEING THE MILITARY MAKE IN CENTRAL RAFAH IS ALSO THE KINDS OF STRIKES THAT THEY ARE CONTINUING TO CARRY OUT.

AND THESE ARE STRIKES THAT ALSO CARRY WITH THEM THE RISK AND INDEED THE RECALL OF ADDITIONAL CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

JUST TWO DAYS AFTER THAT STRIKE THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, THE ISRAELI MILITARY CARRIED OUT ANOTHER STRIKE.

ABOUT 150 METERS AWAY IN ANOTHER AREA WHERE DISPLACED PALESTINIANS WERE LIVING, KILLING EIGHT PEOPLE.

AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER STRIKE IN THE AL NAWASI THAT HAS BEEN DESIGNATED AS A SAFE ZONE KILLING 21 PEOPLE OF WHICH 13 WERE WOMEN.

WHILE WE'RE WITNESSING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THE ISRAELI MILITARY CERTAINLY IN FULL DAMAGE CONTROL FOLLOWING THAT STRIKE SUNDAY NIGHT AND THE INTERNATIONAL CONDEMNATION THAT FOLLOWED, WE'RE NOT REALLY WITNESSING A CHANGE IN THE WAY IN WHICH THE ISRAELI MILITARY OPERATES ON THE GROUND, PARTICULARLY AS IT RELATES TO THESE TWO STRIKES THAT HAPPENED IN JUST THE LAST 24 HOURS.

SO NOW THE QUESTION IS, OF COURSE, AS IT RELATES TO THOSE STRIKES, AS IT RELATES TO THESE ISRAELI MILITARY OPERATIONS NOW HITTING THE HEART OF RAFAH, WILL THIS CROSS, OR WILL THE WHITE HOUSE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT HAS CROSSED THE RED LINE THAT THE PRESIDENT SET OUT.

IT WAS CERTAINLY A VERY CLEAR LINE.

IT WAS PERHAPS QUITE A SQUIGGLY LINE IS ONE WAY TO DEFINE IT, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT A KIND OF ALL-OUT MILITARY OFFENSIVE IN RAFAH.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN HAS TRIED TO DESCRIBE THIS AS AN OPERATION THAT WOULD CAUSE A LOT OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION IN THE HEART OF THE URBAN AREA OF THAT CITY.

IT'S NOT CLEAR YET WHETHER OR NOT THE ISRAELI MILITARY IN CARRYING OUT THE OFFENSIVE THAT IT HAS CARRIED OUT IN THE CENTER OF RAFAH, WHETHER OR NOT IT HAS CROSSED THAT LINE.

WE WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> INDEED.

JEREMY DIAMOND, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW UKRAINE IS ALSO SUFFERING ITS SHARE OF BRUTAL ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS.

AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN RUSSIAN SHELLING ACROSS THE COUNTRY TODAY, AND FIVE MORE ARE STILL MISSING AFTER A RUSSIAN STRIKE ON A LARGE SHOPPING CENTER ON KHARKIV ON SUNDAY, WHICH KILLED AT LEAST 18 PEOPLE, INCLUDING A 12-YEAR-OLD GIRL.

IT IS UKRAINE'S SECOND LARGEST CITY.

IT'S LESS THAN 20 MILES FROM RUSSIA'S BORDER, AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY DEFENSELESS AGAINST RUSSIAN AIR ATTACKS.

NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG WANTS THAT TO CHANGE AT WHAT MAY BE THE MOST CRITICAL MOMENT SINCE RUSSIA FIRST INVADED, HE IS CALLING ON ALLIES TO UNSHACKLE UKRAINE FROM STRIKING MILITARY TARGETS IN RUSSIA WITH THE WEAPONS THEY'VE PROVIDED.

AND HE JOINED ME FROM NATO HEADQUARTERS IN BRUSSELS TO DISCUSS THAT.

SECRETARY GENERAL STOLTENBERG, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU TO TELL ME WHETHER YOU THINK THAT THIS IS THE SCARIEST, MOST DIFFICULT, DICEY TIME FOR UKRAINE SINCE THE EARLY DAYS OF THE INVASION IN 2022.

>> YES, IT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TIME IN THIS WAR SINCE THE FIRST DAYS AND WEEKS OF THE WAR, BECAUSE AFTER THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, UKRAINE WAS ACTUALLY ABLE TO DO SOMETHING HARDLY ANYONE BELIEVED WAS POSSIBLE, THAT IS TO PUSH BACK THE RUSSIANS TO LIBERATE 50% OF THE TERRITORY THAT RUSSIA OCCUPIED IN THE BEGINNING.

AND THEN THEY TRIED TO LAUNCH AN OFFENSIVE LAST SUMMER.

THAT DIDN'T WORK.

AND NOW THE RUSSIANS ARE PUSHING, AND THE RUSSIANS ARE ABLE TO MAKE SOME MARGINAL GAINS.

BUT WE DON'T EXPECT A BIG RUSSIAN BREAKTHROUGH.

OF COURSE, ALWAYS UNCERTAINTY WARS ARE UNPREDICTABLE.

BUT WE EXPECT THE RUSSIANS TO CONTINUE TO PUSH, PAY A HIGH PRICE, AND THEREFORE IT IS IMPORTANT, MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER THAT WE SUPPORT UKRAINE WITH WEAPONS AND WITH TRAINING.

>> OKAY.

SO THERE IS SOME VERY IMPORTANT MEETINGS, NATO MEETINGS, DEFENSE MINISTER, FOREIGN MINISTERS, ET CETERA.

AND YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY STARTED A CONVERSATION ABOUT I'M GOING TO PUT IT THIS WAY, CHANGING THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, ALLOWING UKRAINE TO ACTUALLY USE THE WEAPONS AND THE LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY TO ACTUALLY TARGET RUSSIAN MILITARY SITES INSIDE RUSSIA, IF NEEDS BE.

SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE AMAZED THAT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING ALREADY.

.

>> WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS A WAR OF AGGRESSION.

RUSSIA HAS INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY, INVADED UKRAINE.

THAT'S A BLATANT VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE.

AND SELF-DEFENSE INCLUDES ALSO THE RIGHT TO STRIKE TARGETS OUTSIDE UKRAINE, INCLUDING LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS IN RUSSIA.

I HAVE STATED THAT BEFORE.

BUT WHAT MAKES IT MORE URGENT NOW THE HARDEST FIGHTING IS TAKING PLACE ON THE BORDER, VERY CLOSE TO THE BORDER IN THE KHARKIV REGION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

AND OF COURSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, AT LEAST VERY DIFFICULT FOR UKRAINIANS IF THE RUSSIANS CAN JUST BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER AND THEN LAUNCH MISSILE ATTACKS, AIR ATTACKS AGAINST THE UKRAINIANS, AND THEY NOT BEING ABLE TO USE THEIR ADVANCED WEAPONS TO HIT BACK.

THESE ARE NATIONAL DECISIONS ON THE RESTRICTIONS ON THE USE OF WEAPONS, AND SOMEHOW OUR ALLIES HAVE SAID AND I HAVE SAID NOW I THINK THE TIME HAS COME WHETHER IT'S RIGHT TO HAVE THOSE RESTRICTIONS OR NOT, BECAUSE WE SEE THE FIGHTING, ESPECIALLY ALONG THE FRONTLINE AND THE BORDERLINE IS ALMOST THE SAME ALONG THE FRONT LINE AND BORDERLINES IN THE KHARKIV REGION.

>> SO EVERYBODY INTERPRETED WHAT YOU HAVE SAID AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IN THIS REGARD TO MEAN THE UNITED STATES.

BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN QUITE CAUTIOUS.

HIS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER IS QUITE CAUTIOUS.

BUT INTERESTINGLY, HIS SECRETARY OF STATE IN KYIV JUST RECENTLY INDICATED THAT HE ALSO THOUGHT UKRAINE SHOULD BE ABLE TO -- I'M GOING PARAPHRASE, FIGHT WITHOUT ITS HANDS TIED BEHIND ITS BACK AND MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS.

ARE YOU SPECIFICALLY URGING THE U.S., BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES THAT HAVE THE BIGGEST, MOST IMPORTANT LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY THAT THEY'RE GIVING?

>> I THINK IT'S NOT HELPFUL IF I START TO HAVE INTERNAL CONSULTATIONS WITH SPECIFIC ALLIES ON AIR ON CNN.

BUT MY MESSAGE IS TO ALL ALLIES, THEN WE'LL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN AND NATO FRAME WORKS, NATO MEETINGS TO DISCUSS THE DETAILS.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE UNITED STATES, THE UNITED STATES IS BY FAR THE BIGGEST PROVIDER OF NATO SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.

I WELCOME OF COURSE THE DECISION TO -- IN THE U.S. CONGRESS TO HAVE A SUPPLEMENT, TO HAVE MORE MOMENTUM, $60 BILLION FOR UKRAINE.

AND ALSO THE DECISION DELIVER MORE LONG-RANGE SYSTEMS, INCLUDING THE -- THIS IS MAKING A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

AND RUSSIAN FORCES ARE PARTLY INSIDE RUSSIA, FOR INSTANCE IN THE BORDER REGION BORDERING KHARKIV WHERE THE FIGHTING IS GOING ON NOW.

BUT THERE WAS SOME OCCUPIED UKRAINIAN TERRITORY IN DONBAS AND IN CRIMEA.

AND THERE ARE NO RESTRICTIONS BY ANY ALLY.

AGAIN, ALLIES HAVE DIFFERENT RESTRICTIONS.

THESE ARE NATIONAL DECISIONS.

BUT I THINK THE TIME IS RIGHT TO CONSIDER SOME OF THESE RESTRICTIONS.

>> WE KNOW THE BRITISH HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO BE USED HOW THEY WANT.

BUT FOR INSTANCE, TODAY IN BELGIUM, AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS IN BELGIUM, HE SIGNED ANOTHER DEAL.

THE BELGIUM PRIME MINISTER WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO SAY THESE ARE ONLY TO BE USED IN UKRAINE, WHETHER THEY ARE AIRCRAFT OR ANTI-AIR MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEMS, ET CETERA.

AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE PRIME MINISTER OF ITALY AND OF COURSE THE HUNGARIANS, THEY'RE ALL SAYING WHAT IS STOLTENBERG DOING?

WHAT IS THE SECRETARY GENERAL DOING, TALKING LIKE THIS?

A, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THEIR REACTION?

AND B, DO YOU FEEL A SENSE OF URGENCY NOW, AFTER TEN YEARS OF BEING SECRETARY GENERAL AND YOUR MANDATE ABOUT TO COME TO AN END, AND THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION ON THE FRONT LINE.

>> THE URGENCY IS CAUSED BY THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND, BECAUSE IT'S VERY HEAVY FIGHTING IN KHARKIV REGION, AND ACTUALLY THERE THE FRONTLINE IS MORE OR LESS THE SAME AS THE BORDERLINE BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

SO IF YOU CANNOT ATTACK LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDERLINE, IT MAKES IT MUCH HARDER FOR UKRAINIANS TO UPHOLD THE LEGAL RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE.

AND THAT'S MY -- THAT'S MY MESSAGE.

THEN, OF COURSE, I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT NATO'S TASK IN THIS CONFLICT IS ACTUALLY TWOFOLD.

ONE IS TO PROVIDE SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, AS WE DO, AND WE HAVE TO STEP UP.

THE OTHER IS TO PREVENT THIS WAR FROM ESCALATING BEYOND UKRAINE AND BECOME A FULL-SCALE WAR BETWEEN NATO AND RUSSIA.

THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE'RE NOT SENDING IN TROOPS.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT EVEN THESE WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING SENT BY THE ALLIES, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, SOME VERY SOPHISTICATED ONES, THE RUSSIANS HAVE APPARENTLY FIGURED OUT HOW TO JAM THE ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS, HOW TO ACTUALLY NEUTRALIZE SOME OF THESE WEAPONS THAT THEY'RE GETTING?

>> WELL, RUSSIA HAS, OF COURSE, LEARNED SOME LESSONS THROUGHOUT THIS WAR.

AND WE NEED TO THEN ADAPT TO THAT.

SO THEREFORE, WE ARE CONSTANTLY NATO ALLIES AND UKRAINE ARE CONSTANTLY PROVING THE EQUIPMENT TO THE PROCEDURES TO ENSURE THAT THE WEAPONS WE DELIVER TO UKRAINE ARE WORKING AS THEY SHOULD.

SO WE ARE ALSO DEDUCTING WHAT WE DO AND GIVING UKRAINE MORE ADVANCED SYSTEM, ALSO WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRONIC WARFARE.

THERE ARE MANY CONCERNS.

THERE ARE MANY CHALLENGES WE FACE.

BUT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT NATO ALLIES HAVE DONE HAS MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STOP THE RUSSIAN INVADERS, ACTUALLY LIBERATE A LOT OF LAND.

RUSSIA HAS MADE ONLY MARGINAL GAINS OVER THE LAST MONTHS.

THEY'VE PAID A VERY HIGH PRICE.

SO THE RUSSIANS HAVE PUT THEIR WHOLE ECONOMY ON WAR FOOTING.

THEY HAVE SENDED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS TO PAY A VERY HIGH PRICE, AND STILL THEY STRUGGLE TO CONTROL DONBAS.

SO IF YOU COMPARE WHAT MOST PEOPLE EXPECTED, THE UKRAINIANS HAVE ACHIEVED A LOT, AND WE HAVE DEMONSTRATED OUR SUPPORT IS MAKING A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

>> AND VERY BRIEFLY, FINALLY, IF THESE RULES DON'T CHANGE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON THE GROUND?

IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT YOU'RE CALLING FOR, IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

>> IT'S MORE DIFFICULT FOR UKRAINE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES IF THEY CANNOT HIT LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS IN RUSSIA, WHICH IS THEN ABSOLUTELY THEIR RIGHT AS PART OF THEIR RIGHT FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

BUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT THE SKILL, THE BRAVERY OF THE UKRAINIAN FORCES COMBINED WITH SUBSTANTIAL SUPPORT FROM NATO ALLIES HAS ACTUALLY ENABLED THEM TO ACHIEVE A LOT.

LIBERATE 50% OF THE LAND, OPEN A CORRIDOR IN THE BLACK SEA, SINK MANY RUSSIAN SHIPS, AND CONTINUE TO INFLICT HEAVY LOSSES ON THE RUSSIAN FORCES.

THE PROBLEM OVER THE LAST MONTHS IS THERE WERE SOME VERY SERIOUS DELAYS, PARTLY CAUSED BY THE U.S. DELAY IN AGREEING SUPPLEMENTAL FOR UKRAINE, BUT ALSO SOME DELAYS IN PROVISIONAL AMMUNITION FROM EUROPEAN ALLIES.

WE NEED TO MINIMIZE THE RISKS FOR SIMILAR DELAYS AND GAPS IN THE FUTURE, AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY I HAVE PROPOSED A NATO ROLE, A STRONGER NATO ROLE IN COORDINATING THE SUPPLIES, AND ALSO SHOULD AGREE TO A FINANCIAL PLEDGE, A MULTI-YEAR PLEDGE TO ENSURE WE HAVE MORE STABILITY, MORE PREDICTABILITY AND MORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

THAT WILL HELP THEM TO PREVAIL AND TO PUSH BACK MORE RUSSIAN FORCES.

>> JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO UKRAINE IS ONE OF THOSE YOUNG DEMOCRACIES THAT NEEDS DEFENDING JUST LIKE SOUTH AFRICA.

30 YEARS AGO, IN 1994, SOUTH AFRICA STUNNED THE WORLD, HOLDING ITS HISTORIC FIRST DEMOCRATIC ELECTION.

IT WAS THE END OF APARTHEID.

HOPE WAS SKY-HIGH AS NELSON MANDELA'S AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS WON MORE THAN 60% OF THE VOTE.

THIS WEDNESDAY'S ELECTION IN SOUTH AFRICA COULD ALSO BE HISTORIC, BUT FOR VERY DIFFERENT REASONS.

THE ANC COULD LOSE ITS MAJORITY FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.

AS SOUTH AFRICA ENDURES ECONOMIC STAGNATION, HIGH CRIME AND PERVASIVE CORRUPTION.

NOW, AMONG THE MANY PARTIES JOCKEYING TO SUPPLANT THE ANC, ONE IN PARTICULAR IS TARGETING DISILLUSIONED YOUNG VOTERS BY OFFERING FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.

WHILE THE RISE MZANSI PARTY IS UNLIKELY TO WIN ANYTHING LIKE A MAJORITY, IT COULD BE A KING-MAKER IN A NEW GOVERNING COALITION.

AND ITS LEADER, SONGEZO ZIBI, IS JOINING ME NOW FROM JOHANNESBURG.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK IS THE BEST YOU CAN HOPE FOR.

OR LET ME PUT HIT THE WAY.

JACOB ZUMA, ONE OF YOUR PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS, ONCE SAID THAT THE ANC WOULD RULE UNTIL JESUS CAME BACK.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THAT, AS YOU SIT THERE ON THE EVE OF THE NEXT ELECTION?

>> GOOD EVENING, CHRISTIANE, AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

I THINK JESUS IS ON THE WAY.

BECAUSE BY ALL ACCOUNTS, CERTAINLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE ANC COULD LOSE ITS ABSOLUTE MAJORITY IN THIS ELECTION.

BUT ALSO, AS SOMEBODY WHO GOES AROUND TALKING TO VOTERS IN ALL NIGHT PROVINCES, IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT PEOPLE ARE FED UP.

THEY WANT CHANGE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THEY CAN GET THE NEW LEADERS THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> SO YOU ARE TRYING TO BE ONE OF THOSE NEW LEADERS.

BUT WHAT ARE YOU PARTICULARLY IDENTIFYING AS THE REASON FOR THIS CRISIS FOR THE ANC?

>> YES.

RISE MZANSI IS OFFERING TO BRING IN NEW LEADERS WHO ARE YOUNGER AND MORE ENERGETIC, WHO ARE UNTAINTED BY CORRUPTION, BUT HIGHLY CAPABLE.

I THINK WHAT HAS BROUGHT US HERE IS NOT ONLY THE PERVASIVE CORRUPTION THAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, MAYBE 15 YEARS, IT IS ALSO THE FACT THAT THE LEADERSHIP THAT WE HAVE UNDER THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS IS NO LONGER ABLE TO BRING DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS AND INTEREST GROUPS IN SOUTH AFRICA TO WORK TOGETHER TOWARDS THE COMMON GOAL, EVEN AS THEY CONTINUE TO DISAGREE ON SOME THINGS.

THAT'S CERTAINLY WHAT WE HAD IN THE FIRST 15 YEARS OF DEMOCRACY.

WE'VE LOST IT.

AND AS A RESULT, WE'RE NOT ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE MANY CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE.

THIS ELECTION OFFERS US AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A FRESH START WITH A POSSIBLE MINORITY GOVERNMENT AFTER THIS ELECTION, WHERE WE CAN HAVE NEW LEADERS, WE CAN BUILD THAT KIND OF ABILITY AGAIN.

>> MR. ZIBI, LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, CYRIL RAMAPHOSA WHO IS A CLOSE ALLY OF PRESIDENT MANDELA, BEFORE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST APARTHEID AND SINCE, HE HAS SAID CORRUPTION IS GOING DOWN ON HIS WATCH.

IT WAS HIS PREDECESSOR, JACOB ZUMA WHO ESSENTIALLY SOME PEOPLE SAY MADE THE ANC SYNONYMOUS WITH THE WORD CORRUPTION.

IT IS -- I MEAN, HOW DO YOU GET TO THE ROOT OF THIS?

HOW DO YOU TRY TO END SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY AFFECTING GROWTH AND ALL THE OTHER ISSUES IN SOUTH AFRICA?

>> LOOK, I THINK THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY WE CAN BEGIN TO END CORRUPTION IN SOUTH AFRICA IS TO GET THE ANC OUT OF POWER, BECAUSE WHAT HAS METASTASIZED WITHIN AND AROUND THE ANC ARE MANY CORRUPTION NETWORKS.

AT PROVINCIAL LEVEL, AT MUNICIPAL LEVEL AND AT NATIONAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL.

AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY ANC PRESIDENT TO ASCEND TO POWER WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF THOSE NETWORKS.

SO I HEAR WHAT HE SAYS, BUT SUCCESS AGAINST CORRUPTION, BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF CORRUPTION.

THERE ARE SOME CASES THAT ARE IN THE COURTS, BUT THEY ARE MOVING AT SLOWER THAN A SNAIL'S PACE.

SO WE NEED NEW LEADERS TO CLEAN HOUSE, APPOINT NEW SORT OF SENIOR POLICE OFFICERS, GIVE THEM BETTER EQUIPMENT, BETTER RESOURCES, AND MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN INVESTIGATE CORRUPTION AND PUT PEOPLE IN PRISON, OTHERWISE WE'RE NOT GOING SEE THE GROWTH IN THE RETURN OF CREDIBILITY THAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR.

>> SO AS I SAID, JACOB ZUMA WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE, THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT, BUT ALL OF THE SUDDEN HE IS BACK.

HE'S GOT ANOTHER PARTY, AND HE IS ACTUALLY CONTESTING THESE ELECTIONS, AND HE DOES SEEM TO BE GETTING SOME VOTES.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

AND WHAT CAN YOU DO TRYING TO REALLY SORT OF MOBILIZE THE YOUNG PEOPLE FOR SOMETHING NEW?

>> CHRISTIANE, JACOB ZUMA HAS NOT BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE, BECAUSE HE STILL HAS NOT BEEN PUT TO TRIAL.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS CHARGED BEFORE MY SON WAS BORN.

MY SON IS 17 YEARS OLD.

HE HAS STILL NOT BEEN PUT ON TRIAL.

SO HE HAS NOT BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO, AND THAT IS WHAT I AND MY COLLEAGUES HAVE DONE IS STEPPED FORWARD, MADE USE OF THE OPEN DEMOCRACY THAT WE HAVE, AND ALL OF US NEED TO GO AROUND, CONVINCING PEOPLE TO VOTE, TO VOTE FOR NEW LEADERS, TO SUPPORT THE POLITICAL REFORMS THAT WE ARE PUTTING ON THE TABLE IN ORDER TO IMPROVE ACCOUNTABILITY, AS WELL AS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A MORE PROFESSIONALIZED PUBLIC SERVICE THAT IS GOING TO DO THE WORK OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN PEOPLE.

NEITHER CYRIL RAMAPHOSA NOR JACOB ZUMA CAN DO THAT.

>> AND MR. ZIBI, YOU HAVE SAID IT'S TIME TO HAVE THE GROWN-UPS IN THE ROOM.

AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED YOUR PARTY AS A SORT OF TYPICAL EUROPEAN-STYLE CENTRIST PARTY.

THE BIG ISSUE IN SOUTH AFRICA ALSO APPEARS TO BE THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, AS YOU'VE LAID OUT, ARE PRETTY DISILLUSIONED, AND DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY ARE READY TO TURN OUT AT THE POLLS.

EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THOSE HISTORIC PICTURES BACK IN 1994, THE LINES OF VOTERS FOR THE FIRST TIME SNAKED AROUND FOR HOURS AND HOURS.

I MEAN, IT WAS REALLY QUITE SOMETHING.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN TURNS OF TURNOUT?

>> SO THE LEVEL OF DISILLUSIONMENT THAT WE HAVE SEEN IS SUCH THAT I BELIEVE THAT IN MANY PLACES, YOU'LL GET MORE PEOPLE TURNING UP TO VOTE IN THIS ELECTION.

AND MANY OF THOSE WILL BE YOUNG PEOPLE.

WHAT WE HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE IS WHAT A CENTER LEFT POLITICAL OFFERING BECAUSE WE BELIEVE AFRICANS ARE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS IN THEIR SOUL.

THEY'RE SOCIAL DEMOCRAT IN THEIR OUTLOOK.

AND WE ARE VERY KWCHT IN RISE MZANSI TO HAVE YOUNG LEADERS, YOUNG ACTIVISTS WHO ARE REALLY DETERMINED TO MOVE WITH THE KIND OF ELECTORATE THAT WE HAVE.

BECAUSE, CHRISTIANE, OVER 50% OF OUR VOTERS IN THIS ELECTION WAS BORN IN 1990 OR AFTER.

SO THERE IS A BIG SHIFT COMING IN THIS ELECTION THAT I DON'T THINK HAS BEEN TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT BY MANY COMMENTATORS.

>> YOUR PARTY'S NAME MEANS "SOUTH," RIGHT?

SO SOUTH, SOUTH AFRICA.

YOU'RE REALLY IDENTIFYING YOURSELF WITH YOUR PLACE.

AND SOUTH AFRICA ONCE HAD A TOTALLY BOOMING ECONOMY.

THINGS ARE NOT SO GREAT RIGHT NOW, AND THE JOBLESSNESS IS VERY, VERY HIGH, THE RATE OF UNEMPLOYMENT.

WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE TO DO TO CHANGE THAT, PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE?

>> CHRISTIANE, YOU KNOW, OUR ECONOMY IS GROWING AT AROUND 9.8% AT THE MOMENT AT GDP GROWTH.

AND SOUTH AFRICAN HAS 4, BUT 11 QUARTERS NOW SAID THAT IF WE SOLVE OUR ELECTRICITY PROBLEM, WE SOLVE OUR NATIONAL LOGISTICS NETWORK, AND WE BEGIN TO REDUCE CRIME, THAT COULD RAISE BETWEEN 3 AND 3.5% ECONOMY OF GROWTH.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN ECONOMIC GROWTH OF 4.5% FOR A VERY LONG TIME IN SOUTH AFRICA THAT WOULD JUST BE A START, AND WE BELIEVE THAT IS ACHIEVABLE IN 18 TO 24 MONTHS.

BUT THERE IS ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO TURN THIS CRISIS INTO AN OPPORTUNITY.

FOR INSTANCE, AND I'LL MAKE JUST ONE EXAMPLE, IF WE COMMITTED TO PUTTING SOLAR PANELS ON EVERY ROOF THAT QUALIFIES IN SOUTH AFRICA AND TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE $6.5 BILLION THAT WE'RE GETTING FROM NORTHERN HEMISPHERE COUNTRIES, YOU CAN BUILD CAPACITY TO DO THAT IN SOUTH AFRICA, TRAIN YOUNG PEOPLE, EMPLOY THEM TO INSTALL AND MAINTAIN THE SYSTEM, MAKE ELECTRICITY TO CHEAPER FOR FAMILIES AND SMALL BUSINESSES, AND PUT YOUNG PEOPLE TO WORK, THE ONLY REASON WE'VE NOT EVEN ACCESSED THAT $6.5 BILLION IS BECAUSE WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS THAT SLOW, THAT IS PONDEROUS, AND WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT, WHO IS GOING TO BENEFIT FROM THAT PACKAGE RATHER THAN DOING THE WORK OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN PEOPLE.

>> SONGEZO ZIBI, THE HEAD OF RISE MZANSI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AS YOU GO TO THE POLLS TOMORROW AND YOUR NATION DOES.

THANKS A LOT.

>>> AND NEXT, WE TURN TO PROTECTING CHILDREN IN THE MODERN AND OFTEN DANGEROUS DIGITAL WORLD.

BRITAIN HAS RECENTLY INTRODUCED THE ONLINE SAFETY ACT, WHICH REQUIRES TECH COMPANIES TO BETTER PROTECT KIDS FROM HARMFUL MATERIAL.

MEANTIME, IN THE UNITED STATES, NINE STATES HAVE INTRODUCED SIMILAR BILLS TO IMPROVE CHILD SAFETY ONLINE IN THE FACE OF INTENSE LOBBYING FROM TECH COMPANIES.

AND THERE ARE GROWING CONCERNS ABOUT THE LACK OF LEGISLATION AROUND AI TOO.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT AND ACTIVIST ON DIGITAL REGULATION.

BEEBAN KIDRON IS A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND AN ADVISER TO OXFORD UNIVERSITY'S INSTITUTE FOR ETHNICS IN AI, AND SHE IS JOINING ME NOW HERE IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD EVENING.

>> SO, YOU ONCE SAID, AND I'M GOING TO READ THIS, BECAUSE I THINK IT SETS UP YOUR ACTIVISM REALLY QUITE WELL.

YOU ONCE SAID THAT ABOUT TECH COMPANIES AND HOW THEY TREATED CHILDREN FOR YEARS, THEY BOILED KIDS ALIVE ONLINE, AND EVERYBODY IS FED UP.

WHAT WERE YOU SAYING?

AND WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING ABOUT IT?

>> I THINK THE POINT IS THIS, IS THAT WE HAVE A SET OF CHILDHOOD NORMS, AND SOMEHOW THE TECH COMPANIES HAVE COME IN, AND THEY'VE CHANGED THOSE NORMS IN PLAIN SIGHT OF ALL OF US, AND WE WERE PERSUADED FOR A MOMENT THAT IT WAS OKAY, BUT IT'S NOT OKAY.

FOR A CHILD TO NEVER HAVE A MOMENT TO THEMSELVES, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DEVELOP THEIR MEMORY OR THEIR CREATIVITY.

AND IT'S NOT OKAY TO SECOND INFORMATION TO KIDS SAYING HERE'S PORNOGRAPHY WHEN YOU'RE 8, OR WHY DON'T YOU SELF-HARM OR TRY COMMITTING SUICIDE.

THAT'S NOT A CHILDHOOD NORM THAT WE ACCEPT IN ANY OTHER AREA OF LIFE.

AND THIS IS THE POINT IS WE'VE LITERALLY ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN ALL AROUND.

AND SUDDENLY, ALL OVER THE WORLD, PARENTS ARE SAYING HANG ON A MINUTE, NOT MY KID.

>> AND THE STATISTICS ARE DREADFUL, JUST WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT 8-YEAR-OLD KIDS AND THE OTHERS.

I'LL READ OFF SOME OF THEM IN A MOMENT.

IN THE MEANTIME, OFTEN THE SYSTEM, THE WORLD EXPECTS PARENTS TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

AND YET YOU'RE SAYING, AND MANY OTHER ACTIVISTS ARE SAYING, ACTUALLY, IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO PRODUCE THIS.

IT'S THE TECH COMPANIES.

IT'S THE SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS THIS, WITH NO REGULATIONS, CERTAINLY ALMOST NONE IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT DID YOU DO HERE?

AND HOW DID YOU TRANSPORT IT TO THE U.S.?

>> SO I THINK THOSE TWO POINTS THERE, THE FIRST THING IS ACTUALLY THIS IS AN INDUSTRY THAT FOR THE MOST PART, AT THE MOMENT, IS EARNING, YOU KNOW, 19% OF ITS REVENUE FROM ADVERTISING.

SO THAT'S A BUSINESS.

THAT'S NOT OTHER.

AND I THINK THEY PLAYED A BLIND AIR TO THIS TECH EXCEPTIONALISM.

WE ARE NOT A BUSINESS.

BUT I THINK THE FIRST THING IS TO SAY YOU ARE.

YOU'RE MAKING MONEY.

>> DO THEY SERIOUSLY TRY TO SAY THEY'RE NOT A BUSINESS?

>> IN A WAY THEY SAY THEY SHOULDN'T BE REGULATED BECAUSE OF ALL SORTS OF ISSUES AROUND THE CONSTITUTION AND SO ON.

BUT ACTUALLY WE DO TAKE ALL OF THE BUSINESSES, WHETHER IT'S FARMER, OR TRANSPORT OR MILITARY OR SO ON, ANY OTHER BUSINESS HAS RULES AND REGULATIONS.

SO THE FIRST THING IS TO DENY THEM THIS SORT OF SPECIAL EXPECTATIONAL STATUS.

I THINK THAT HERE, WHAT WE DID WAS WE HAD SOME -- WE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE FROM THE AGE APPROPRIATE DESIGN CODE, AND WE BROUGHT IN LEGISLATION.

AND WE SAID FOR CHILDREN, WE NEED A DUTY OF CARE.

WE NEED THESE COMPANIES NOT TO PROVIDE UNSAFE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.

NOW EVEN WHEN THEY DO PROVIDE SAFE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, PARENTS HAVE A ROLE.

THE PARENT CANNOT SINGLE-HANDEDLY DEAL WITH A MACHINE THAT PUTS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO GETTING THEIR CHILD'S ATTENTION AND SAY OKAY, PUT IT DOWN NOW.

>> EXACTLY.

I MEAN, YEARS OF DEBATE HERE.

THE ONLINE SAFETY ACT CAME INTO LAW LAST OCTOBER.

>> YES.

>> AND THE UK GOVERNMENT SAYS THE STRONGEST PROTECTIONS IN THE ACT HAVE BEEN DESIGNED FOR CHILDREN THAT WILL MAKE THE UK THE SAFEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO BE A CHILD ONLINE.

PLATFORMS WILL BE REQUIRED TO PREVENT CHILDREN FROM ACCESSING HARMFUL AND AGE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT, AND PROVIDE PARENTS AND CHILDREN WITH CLEAR AND ACCESSIBLE WAYS TO REPORT PROBLEMS ONLINE WHEN THEY ARISE.

YOU HAVE ALSO -- YOU'RE PART OF MAKING THIS HAPPEN.

ARE YOU SAYING IT'S NOT AMBITIOUS ENOUGH?

>> I THINK IT'S NOT AMBITIOUS ENOUGH YET.

AND I THINK WE'VE GOT SOME FANTASTIC WINS.

IT'S A WATERSHED MOMENT AS CELL PHONE, SUICIDE, PORNOGRAPHY, ALL HAVE TO BE BEHIND AN 18-PLUS AGE GATE.

WE'VE GOT NEW CRIMINAL OFFENSES THAT STOP IMAGES BEING SHARED ON GENITALS TO PHONES AND SO ON.

EXCELLENT.

HOWEVER, I HAVE NOT SEEN YET CLARITY THAT UNDER 13S WILL BE ENFORCED.

IF COMPANIES SAY THAT THEY HAVE TERMS AND CONDITIONS IN WHICH YOUNG CHILDREN SHOULDN'T BE THERE, THEN CHILDREN SHOULDN'T BE THERE.

I HAVEN'T YET SEEN THAT SOME OF THE LIVE STREAMING, SOME OF THE JOINING KIDS TO BIG GROUPS, BROADCASTING FROM THEIR BEDROOM, I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT THAT IS CATEGORICALLY AGE INAPPROPRIATE.

SO WE'VE GOT A BIT OF A WAY TO GO.

THAT IS A PROCESS.

BUT I HAVE CALLED ON TO BE MORE AMBITIOUS.

>> THE REGULATOR FOR COMMUNICATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> IT TIS THE REGULATOR.

BUT ACTUALLY, WE'RE IN ELECTION MODE HERE.

AND WE ARE ABOUT TO CALL ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ELECTION, IN FACT, ALL PARTIES TO PUT CHILDREN'S SAFETY ONLINE FRONT AND CENTER OF THEIR FIRST 100 DAYS.

>> AND THE RESPONSE FROM THE PARTIES?

>> SO FAR, AND IT'S EARLY DAYS, AND WE'RE WORKING ON THE ACTUAL DECLARATION.

BUT SO FAR LABOR HAS SAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO WORK ON CHILD ONLINE SAFETY AND MAKE SURE IT'S A PRIORITY IN THEIR NEW PROGRAM.

SO WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

I WILL BE WRITING TO THE TIME, RISHI SUNAK, BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT WERE ABOUT TO PASS INTO LAW, INCLUDING DATA ACCESS FOR BEREAVED PARENTS, A NEW CRIME OF USING AI FILES AND MODELS TO CREATE CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE.

SOME WORK AROUND THAT, ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT FELL IN THE SOUTHERN COURT FOR THE ELECTION.

AND I WILL BE WRITING TO RISHI SUNAK, AND SAYING IF HE BECOMES PRIME MINISTER AGAIN, WILL HE BRING THEM BACK?

AND TO LABOR, TO ASK THEM.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO COMPARE -- YOU MAY NOT WANT TO -- BUT IT APPEARS YOU'VE HAD SUCCESS HERE.

AND IT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

TO GET ANY SUCCESS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THEY ENDLESSLY CALLED THE TECH PROS AND GIANTS BEFORE THEM AND SEEM COMPLETELY BAMBOOZLED FROM ZUCKERBERG ON WHO SAY YES, YES, WE'LL TAKE CARE OF IT AND APPARENTLY NEVER DO.

AND YET YOUR BILL REALLY DID GET TRACTION IN CALIFORNIA.

I MEAN, GOVERNOR NEWSOM SIGNED SOMETHING SIMILAR IN.

HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO DO THAT?

AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION FROM THE TECH COMPANY, THIS BRITISH BARONESS ESSENTIALLY INFLUENCING WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO.

>> I SHOULD SAY STRAIGHT UP A BRITISH BARONESS CANNOT INFLUENCE WHAT THEY DO IN AMERICA.

AND I THINK I DON'T HAVE TO PUT THE AMERICAN CONTEXT INTO A BROADER GLOBAL CONTEXT IN WHICH THE AFRICAN UNION HAS JUST PUT FORWARD CHILD SAFETY POLICIES, IN WHICH AUSTRALIA HAS SAID THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE AADC, THE AGE APPROPRIATE DESIGN CODE IN WHICH ALL OVER EUROPE WE'RE SEEING MOVES TOWARDS SIMILAR THINGS.

AND I BELIEVE THAT THE AI ACT IN EUROPE WILL HAVE SPECIAL PROVISION FOR CHILDREN.

SO I THINK THIS IS A GLOBAL CONVERSATION.

AND MIGHT I SAY, AMERICA IS BEHIND EVERYBODY ELSE.

>> YEAH.

>> IT'S NOT WHAT THE BARONESS IS DOING TO AMERICA IS WHAT AMERICA IS DOING TO ITSELF IN ACTUALLY GIVING COVER TO THE COMPANIES, BUT NOT ACTUALLY INSISTING THAT THEY BEHAVE IN A WAY THAT IS APPROPRIATE.

AND I THINK IF YOU DO POLLING, AND I DO SEE THE POLLING FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING FROM AMERICA, THE ELECTORATE WOULD LIKE THE COMPANIES TO ACT.

THE ELECTORATE WOULD LIKE WHICHEVER ADMINISTRATION COMES IN NOVEMBER TO ACT.

AND PARENTS IN PARTICULAR ARE GOING TO GET ANGRY.

AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO -- YOU'VE GOT INTERNATIONAL LAW, JENS.

LET ME SAY TO THE TECH COMPANIES THAT I THINK THAT THEY WILL ULTIMATELY SUFFER FOR NOT TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE'S KIDS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT EDUCATION?

BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR.

AND THERE HAS BEEN ALL SORTS OF TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, STOPPING SEX EDUCATION AT CERTAIN AGES, AND THIS AND THAT.

HOW DOES THAT ALSO COMPOUND THE PROBLEM FOR CHILDREN WHO, AS YOU SAID, MANY OF THEM GET FLOODED WITH THIS PORNOGRAPHY AND WHAT THEY'RE TAUGHT TO THINK IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO SEXUALLY, ET CETERA, AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANYWHERE TO GO TO BE EDUCATED ABOUT IT.

>> YEAH, I DO THINK IT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

I DO THINK THAT SCHOOLS ARE A GOOD PLACE FOR EDUCATION, AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT SCHOOLS ARE TEACHING, AND THEN SCHOOLS SHOULD GET ALONG AND TEACH IT.

AND I DO REMEMBER EVEN WHEN MY CHILDREN WERE VERY YOUNG, AND THEY ARE ADULT NOW, THAT ACTUALLY, THE SCHOOL SENT HOME A NOTE AND THIS IS WHAT WE'LL BE TELLING YOUR KIDS TOMORROW.

AND IF YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM, LET US KNOW.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN PARENTS AND THE SCHOOLS, AND IS BLOWN UP OUT OF PROPORTION.

THE GREATER PROBLEM, AND IT IS A VERY BIG PROBLEM OF TEENAGERS AND YOUNG ADULTS WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT CONSENT IS, WHO DO THINK PUTTING YOUR ARMS AROUND SOMEONE'S NECK IS FUN FOR THEM.

AND I'M AFRAID BECAUSE IN MY LIFE, I SPEAK TO AN AWFUL LOT LAWYERS WHO REPRESENT AN AWFUL LOT OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE GOTTEN IN REAL TROUBLE THROUGH NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT BOUNDARIES LOOK LIKE AND WHAT IT IS THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO REJECT.

AND WHEN I SAY REAL TROUBLE, THAT SOUNDS COY.

WHAT I SAY IS THEY HAVE BEEN HURT.

>> VERY QUICKLY, BECAUSE WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, DO YOU BELIEVE THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, WHATEVER IT IS, IS READY TO TAKE THIS EVEN MORE SERIOUSLY?

>> WELL, I'M CALLING THE LABOR GOVERNMENT, AND I'M CALLING ON THE TORY GOVERNMENT AND THE LIBERALS TO MAKE IT CLEAR.

AND I'M ACTUALLY CALLING ON THE BRITISH ELECTORATE.

I DON'T GET TO VOTE.

I'M AN INDEPENDENT PEER, TO ACTUALLY NOT VOTE FOR ANYONE WHO DOESN'T TUT PUTT THIS HIGH ON THEIR AGENDA.

>> BEEBAN KIDRON, AHEAD OF THE CURVE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS DEVOTED DECADES TO GIVING LATINO COMMUNITIES A CHOICE IN LATINO COMMUNITIES.

BUT MANY KNOW HIM HAS ARIZONA THE FATHER OF "HAMILTON" CREATOR LIN-MANUEL MIRANDA.

NOW LUIS MIRANDA IS OUT WITH A NEW MEMOIR, "RELENTLESS: MY STORY OF THE LATINO SPIRIT THAT IS TRANSFORMING AMERICA."

WHICH CHRONICLES HIS JOURNEY FROM YOUNG ACTIVIST IN PUERTO RICO TO NEW YORK CITY.

MICHEL MARTIN LOOKS BACK AT A LIFETIME ADVOCACY.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

LUIS MIRANDA JR., THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>> AS YOUR SON LIN-MANUEL SAYS IN THE FORWARD, THIS BOOK DOES A LOT OF THINGS.

IT'S A MEMOIR, IT'S A STORY OF THE POLITICAL EVOLUTION OF LATINO POWER IN NEW YORK PARTICULARLY, AND IT'S ALSO KIND OF A -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY, A MANIFESTO ABOUT WHAT TO SAY ABOUT HOW LEADERS SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT LATINO VOTERS IN THE CURRENT MOMENT.

IT DOES A LOT OF THINGS.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK AT THIS TIME?

>> WHEN I STARTED, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MANIFESTO PART.

I WAS GETTING INCREASINGLY PISSED OFF THAT I KEPT READING ALL OF THE NEW EXPERTS ON LATINO POLITICS, BUT I'VE NEVER HEARD OF IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, AND I'VE BEEN IN THIS SPACE FOR 45 YEARS.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS SPACE.

BUT THEY HAD READ A COUPLE OF POLLS, AND ALL OF THE SUDDEN THEY WERE EXPERTS.

AND I KEPT COMPLAINING TO MY FRIENDS.

AND MY FRIENDS SAID WHY RATHER THAN COMPLAINING PUT DOWN ON PAPER YOUR 45 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS AREA.

SO I STARTED DOING THAT.

AS I DID THAT, MY FAMILY BECAME MORE AND MORE PROTAGONIST IN THE STORY OF POLITICS BECAUSE A LOT OF WHAT WE DO, WE DO IT TOGETHER AS A FAMILY.

AND THEN THE AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL PART BECAME AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF IT.

>> YOU CAME TO THE MAINLAND FROM PUERTO RICO WHEN YOU WERE ONLY 19 YEARS OLD.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO GO TO THE MAINLAND?

AND HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN POLITICS?

>> I WAS ALWAYS FASCINATED BY NEW YORK.

IT WAS NOT EVEN THE MAINLAND.

IT WAS NEW YORK.

>> NEW YORK.

>> AND SO COMING TO NEW YORK WAS IMPORTANT TO ME SO WHEN I WAS RECRUITED FOR THE Ph.D PROGRAM IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF PUERTO RICO GAVE ME A SCHOLARSHIP TO COME TO NEW YORK, IT WAS LIKE A SPECIAL COMBO.

I WAS COMING TO NEW YORK.

I WAS GOING TO STUDY CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY.

AND I WAS GETTING DOLLARS TO BE IN NEW YORK BUT TO GO BACK TO PUERTO RICO, BECAUSE THE SCHOLARSHIP MEANT THAT I WOULD GO BACK TO PUERTO RICO TO TEACH FOR A Ph.D PROGRAM THAT THEY WERE STARTING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PUERTO RICO.

OF COURSE NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.

>> I'M ALSO FROM NEW YORK, BORN AND RAISED.

AND I WAS REALLY INTERESTED TO READ YOUR ACCOUNTS OF LIKE THE POLITICS OF THE TIME, THE POLITICS OF KIND OF PUERTO RICAN INDEPENDENCE, WHETHER WHAT'S OUR PATH FORWARD?

IS IT TO SEEK INDEPENDENCE, OR IS IT TO SEEK COMMON CAUSE WITH OTHER HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE AS A PART OF THE UNITED STATES?

IT WAS REALLY SORT OF INTERESTING TO READ THAT.

AND YOU SAY -- AND PEOPLE MAY FORGET THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, THAT THESE CONVERSATIONS WEREN'T ALL THEORETICAL.

SOME OF THEM WERE VIOLENT.

THERE WAS A WHOLE ACTIVIST WING THAT ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN USING VIOLENCE AS A TOOL.

AND YOU WERE VERY KIND OF TORN BETWEEN THE CAPITALIST VISION AND THE SOCIALIST VISION.

BUT TELL ME A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> WHEN YOU COME FROM PUERTO RICO AND IN YOUR MIND YOU'RE COMING BACK, YOU'RE GOING BACK TO PUERTO RICO, YOUR LIFE HAS A LEG IN NEW YORK AND A LEG IN PUERTO RICO.

SO THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHAT IS THE ROLE OF ACTIVISTS AND POLITICAL OPERATIVES AT THIS POINT -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE 70s, RIGHT AFTER THE YOUNG LORDS, THE DEBATE WAS IT'S OUR JOB TO FIGHT FOR PUERTO RICAN DEFENDANTS WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OR THERE WAS AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO SAID NO, OUR JOB, BECAUSE MOST OF US ARE GOING TO STAY HERE, IT'S TO BRING JOY TO OTHER MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES WHO ARE OUR NEIGHBORS AND FIGHT FOR THE DEMOCRATIC RIGHTS AND SCHOOLING AND HOUSING AND HEALTH CARE OF ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO GET THERE.

BUT AT THE END, THAT'S WHERE I LANDED.

>> WHAT IS IT THAT ATTRACTED YOU TO THIS PUBLIC SERVICE?

AND YOU'VE HAD ALL THESE DIFFERENT REALLY INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, ROLES THAT YOU'VE PLAYED IN THE CITY.

WHAT ATTRACT YOU'D TO THAT?

>> I THINK A LOT WAS UPBRINGING.

I GREW UP IN A VERY SMALL TOWN IN PUERTO RICO.

THEY HAD SIX STREETS, THEY'RE STILL THOSE SIX STREETS.

BUT MY PARENTS WERE VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE FABRIC OF THE TOWN.

VERY DIFFERENT.

IT WAS A RED CROSS, THE ROTARY CLUB, LIONS INTERNATIONAL, SORT OF THE KINDS OF CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS THAT WORK IN SMALL PLACES AND THAT HELP SMALL PLACES.

SO WE WERE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN SOME MOVEMENT HELPING SOMEONE.

SO COMING TO NEW YORK, I COULD NOT SEE ANY OTHER WAY THAN GETTING INVOLVED.

IN FACT, WHEN MY WIFE AND I FINISHED SETTLING IN WASHINGTON HEIGHTS 43 YEARS AGO, FOR ME IT WAS IMPORTANT TO END UP IN A NEIGHBORHOOD IN NEW YORK WHERE IT FELT LIKE A SMALL TOWN, WHERE PEOPLE KNEW EACH OTHER, WHERE PEOPLE WILL GOSSIP WITH EACH OTHER, WILL FIGHT WITH EACH OTHER, BUT WOULD HELP EACH OTHER AS WELL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SO LET'S FAST FORWARD IN NEW YORK.

YOU OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE IN EQUITY.

YOU OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE IN INCLUSION.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR KIDS, YOU ALSO BELIEVE IN DOING WHAT'S RIGHT FOR THEM.

YOU WERE VERY AGGRESSIVE ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WHAT THEY NEEDED WAS TO GO TO A SCHOOL OUTSIDE THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THEN THAT'S WHAT THEY DID.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, PROGRESSIVES, A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR KIND OF FACE THAT DILEMMA, RIGHT?

AND I WAS JUST CURIOUS ABOUT HOW YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

>> WE WORKED VERY HARD ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES WHEN WE MOVED IN TO WASHINGTON HEIGHTS AND BOUGHT OUR LITTLE HOUSE, THERE WAS NO EXTRA MONEY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

AND OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT WAS NUMBER 32 OUT OF 32 ON MATH AND READING ACHIEVEMENT.

SO THE GOAL THEN FOR US AS A FAMILY WAS WHAT IS 80 THERE THAT OUR KIDS CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

THAT'S HOW WE FOUND ABOUT HUNTER CAMPUS SCHOOLS AND SORT OF ENROLLING MANUEL IN THE TESTING TO SEE IF HE WILL BE ACCEPTED.

WE FOUND A MAGNET SCHOOLS THAT WOULD BE OUTSIDE OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

ALL OF THIS MEANT THAT AS MY WIFE AND I WERE WORKING SEVERAL JOBS AT THE SAME TIME, WE WERE JUGGLING HOW IS LUISITA GETTING TO 137th STREET?

HOW IS MANUEL GETTING TO 96th STREET ON THE EAST SIDE?

BUT WE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT, AND I JUST THINK THAT THAT'S THE MODEL OF PEOPLE WHO COME INTO THIS COUNTRY, THAT OUR KIDS WERE GOING TO HAVE A BETTER LIFE HERE.

I GET ASKED ALL THE TIME HOW YOU FEEL WHEN THEY CALL YOU LIN-MANUEL'S DAD, WHEN YOU HAVE THIS OTHER LIFE.

I'M LIKE, WELL, MY LIFE, MOST OF MY LIFE WAS HOW CAN MY KID DO BETTER THAN ME.

SO IF I BECAME LIN-MANUEL'S DAD, I ACCOMPLISHED THE MAIN GOAL IN LIFE.

BUT WE COULD NOT PURCHASE ADDITIONAL SERVICES.

SO WE WENT OUT THERE AND HUSTLED FOR OUR KIDS AND OUR FAMILY.

AND THAT'S HOW I DI GET INVOLVED IN THE CHARTER MOVEMENT.

AS A DEMOCRAT IN NEW YORK, WHEN IT WAS SEEN AS A REPUBLICAN REALITY.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS I WAS ALSO REALLY INTERESTED IN THAT STORY IS IF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, YOUR SON'S FIRST PLAY, BROADWAY PLAY "IN THE HEIGHTS," THAT'S KIND OF ONE OF THE DILEMMAS, RIGHT?

DO I STAY DOOR I GO.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU THINK THAT IN SORT OF SUBCONSCIOUSLY THAT THAT STORY IN A WAY CAME FROM YOUR OWN FAMILY'S DEBATES ABOUT THESE THINGS.

>> -- IT'S THE DEBATE THAT EXISTS TO THIS DAY WHERE LIN-MANUEL FINISHED WESLEYAN AND CAME BACK TO WASHINGTON HEIGHTS.

AND IN THE HEIGHTS BECOMES A HIT.

HE COULD GO ANYWHERE.

HE'S SETTLED IN WASHINGTON HEIGHTS WHERE HE IS STILL RAISING HIS KIDS.

MY WIFE AND I DECIDED AFTER MUCH DEBATE THAT WE'RE HAPPY HERE.

WE'RE GOING STAY HERE AND CONTINUE TO STICK IT OUT IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND MAKE SURE THAT THAT NEIGHBORHOOD SURVIVES.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THE STRUGGLES AND THE BACK TIES STAY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD IN WHATEVER NEXT THE NEIGHBORHOOD IS.

>> SO IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR -- THE OTHER PART OF YOUR BOOK, THE MANIFESTO.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU THINK THAT A LOT OF PUNDITS AND THE EXPERTS ARE GETTING WRONG ABOUT THE SO-CALLED LATINO VOTE?

>> I THINK THAT, FIRST, THAT AS IT COMES TO LATINO POLITICS, YOU CANNOT ANALYZE LATINO POLITICS IN THE BLACK AFRICAN AMERICAN POLITICS WHITE PARADIGM.

I THINK THAT WHITE POLITICIANS DECIDED THAT BECAUSE WE'RE NOT WHITE, WE MUST BE BLACK.

AND SO ARE ALL TOGETHER IN THE POLITICAL ARENA.

AND THAT'S NOT TRUE.

LATINOS HAVE NEVER VOTED TECHNICALLY FOR ANY CANDIDATE OR PARTY.

JUST REMEMBER, GEORGE BUSH GOT 42% OF THE LATINO VOTE NATIONWIDE.

THE SECOND IS THAT WE'RE NOT TURNING REPUBLICANS.

WE ARE TURNING INTO MORE PERSUADABLE VOTERS.

THE ONLY REAL LATINO POLL THAT HAS BEEN DONE -- OTHER POLLS WERE 18%.

AND THE STANDARD ERROR IS 15%.

SO YOU REALLY CAN CONCLUDE VERY LITTLE.

BUT IN ALL LATINO POLL, SUPPORT FOR BIDEN HAD DROPPED FROM THE 66, 67% THAT HE GOT IN THE ELECTION TO 49%.

BUT TRUMP'S SUPPORT HAD NOT INCREASED.

WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT THEN YOU HAVE THIS 17% OF LATINOS WHO ARE WONDERING WHO ARE WE VOTING FOR?

AND THAT'S WHERE THE PERSUADABLE PART BEGINS.

AND THIRD, OUR PROPENSITY IS TO VOTE DEMOCRAT, BUT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THOSE VOTES, NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE TURNING REPUBLICAN, BUT BECAUSE THEY'LL STAY HOME AND NOT VOTE FOR ANYBODY.

>> YOU SAY -- YOU POINT OUT THAT ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE LATINO COMMUNITY, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, ARE DONALD TRUMP ADMIRERS OR SUPPORTERS.

AND YOU SAY THAT WHEN HE SPEAKS ABOUT RACE AND IMMIGRANTS, EVEN HIS LATINO FANS CAN FROWN, BUT THEY ALSO LIKE HIM.

WHAT DO THEY LIKE ABOUT HIM?

>> THEY LIKE THAT HE'S BLUNT.

THEY LIKE THAT HE'S ENTERTAINING.

THEY LIKE THAT HE SEEMS TO KNOW EVERYTHING.

GOD, HE SCRATCH THE SURFACE.

90% OF WHAT COMES OUT OF THAT DEMON'S MOUTH IS FALSE.

BUT THERE IS THIS AURA AROUND HIM THAT HE IS POWERFUL, THAT HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH, AND THAT HE IS TELLING IT AS IT IS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAY THAT IS INTERESTING, WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT PROVIDING HONEST WORK, INSTEAD OF A GOVERNMENT HANDOUT, MANY LATINOS LISTEN.

AND FOR MANY IMMIGRANTS, GOVERNMENTS ARE NOT HONEST AND WELL-INTENTIONED.

A AND YOU SAY THAT SOME LATINOS ARE INVESTED IN WHAT TRUMP REPRESENTS BECAUSE THEY'VE COME FROM COUNTRIES THAT WERE RUINED BY CORRUPT DICTATORS.

SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS ARE GETTING THIS WRONG?

>> THAT THEY'RE TREATING US AS A VOTING BLOC.

AND WE ARE A BLOC, BUT NOT A VOTING BLOC.

AND YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND AS LATINOS DISPERSE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, WHERE WE COME FROM, IT'S IMPORTANT.

THE POLITICAL SITUATION OF THE COUNTRY WHERE WE COMES FROM, IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT.

THE GENERATION THAT WE BELONG TO, IT'S IMPORTANT.

THE GEOGRAPHY, IT'S IMPORTANT.

WHERE WERE WE BORN?

TWO-THIRDS OF LATINOS NOW ARE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THEY ARE ALL OF THIS VARIABLES THAT ARE GOING TO IMPACT OUR POLITICAL REALITY.

AND AS DEMOCRATS, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

2000, WE SPEND LATINO VICTORY FUND OF WHICH I'M THE CHAIR A LOT OF RESOURCES IN GEORGIA.

EVEN THOUGH LATINOS ARE ONLY 3% OF THE VOTE IN GEORGIA, BUT WE KNEW THAT THEY WERE RIPE IN A PURPLE STATE TO BE TAKEN.

REPUBLICANS DON'T HAVE TO WIN THE LATINO VOTE.

THEY JUST NEED TO CORRODE AND TAKE AWAY ENOUGH FOR US TO LOSE THOSE ELECTORAL VOTES.

SO WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN GEORGIA.

YOU HAVE TO INVEST IN A COMMUNITY IF YOU WANT THOSE VOTES.

>> SO BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I MEAN, YOU'VE HAD HOW MANY LIVES?

YOU'VE HAD A LIFE AS A SCHOLAR.

YOU'VE HAD A LIFE AS A SORT OF A POLITICAL ACTIVIST, AS A PUBLIC SERVANT.

YOU'VE RAISED ONE OF THE GREAT CULTURAL FIGURES OF OUR TIME.

YOU KNOW, AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU?

>> I HAD A HEART ATTACK 2017.

SO MY OUTLOOK OF LIFE HAS CHANGED.

I WOULD DO SEVERAL THINGS.

I WANT TO FIND A SPACE IN DOING DOCUMENTARIES.

I JUST HOPE IT'S A GREAT WAY OF TELLING STORIES THAT I CARE ABOUT WHERE I CAN DO AS A SHORT OR DO AS A 90-MINUTE.

I WANT TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH MY WIFE.

WE HAVE BEEN TOGETHER FOR 46 YEARS, AND ALWAYS DOING STUFF AND SPENDING SO MUCH TIME AND SOMETHING THAT COVID TOLD US WHEN WE WERE IN SECLUSION IS THAT WE ACTUALLY LIKE EACH OTHER, AND THAT WE'D LIKE BEING WITH EACH OTHER.

AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE NEXT GENERATION OF GRANDCHILDREN GO AHEAD WITH A GREAT BANG.

WE LOVE OUR GRANDCHILDREN.

SO I WANT TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH MY GRANDCHILDREN.

I WANT TO DO MANY OTHER THINGS THAT I HAVEN'T DONE YET.

>> WELL, LUIS MIRANDA JR., THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S A REMARKABLE TALE, RELENTLESS.

"MY STORY OF THE LATINO SPIRIT" BY LUIS MIRANDA JR. IS OUT NOW.

AND THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE.