May 29, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A MAJOR GROUND OPERATION.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT AT THIS POINT.

>> WALKING BACK ANOTHER U.S. RED LINE.

WE GET THE LATEST ON THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA, AND WE ASK SENATOR VAN HOLLEN WHETHER THERE IS A WAY OUT.

>>> THEN -- >> THE ONE THING I COULD NOT PROTECT HER FROM WAS THE MONSTER SHE WAS MARRIED TO.

>> THE LIFE AND MURDER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

30 YEARS LATER, THE DOCUMENTARY THAT FOCUSES ON HER STORY.

THREE SISTERS SHARE THEIR GRIEF AND THE IMPORTANCE OF RECOGNIZING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE TRUTH WHEN THE LIE IS MORE ENTERTAINING.

>> "GET HONEST OR DIE LYING: WHY SMALL TALK SUCKS."

RADIO HOST CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, AND WHY MORE OF OUR TELEVISIONS NEED TO BE DEEP AND NUANCED.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL'S ASSAULT ON RAFAH IS INTENSIFYING, BUT THE U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS NOT CHANGING TACT.

THE WHITE HOUSE ASSERTS IT HASN'T SEEN A MAJOR GROUND OPERATION THERE, BUT THAT'S DONE NOTHING TO TEMPER GLOBAL OUTRAGE AFTER AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE KILLED MORE THAN 45 PEOPLE IN A DISPLACEMENT CAMP IN SOUTHERN GAZA ON SUNDAY.

A CNN ANALYSIS HAS FOUND THAT U.S.-MADE MUNITIONS WERE USED IN THAT ATTACK.

AND NOW THE HEAD OF ISRAEL'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SAYS HE EXPECTS ANOTHER SEVEN MONTHS OF WAR IN GAZA.

MEANWHILE, AS HUMANITARIAN CONCERNS ABOUND, SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW A MUCH TOUTED U.S. PIER INTENDED TO DELIVER AID HAS BEEN ALMOST COMPLETELY BROKEN UP IN ROUGH SEAS OVER THE WEEKEND.

NOW AS PRESSURE MOUNTS ON ISRAEL TO HOLD ITS ATTACKS ON RAFAH, REPUBLICAN SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM IN ISRAEL TODAY TOLD PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU THAT HIS COUNTRY WILL NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN SUPPORT.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, A MEMBER OF THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.

HE HAS BEEN A VOCAL CRITIC OF ISRAEL'S CONDUCT IN GAZA, REPEATEDLY CALLING FOR MORE HUMANITARIAN AID TO GET IN.

SENATOR VAN HOLLEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> CHRISTIANE, IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> SO CAN WE JUST START WITH TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE U.S.

STANDS.

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE ADMINISTRATION DESCRIPTION OF THIS NOT VIOLATING THEIR RED LINES?

I MEAN, RECENTLY TO CNN, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID IF THERE IS AN ATTACK INSIDE RAFAH, THEN HE WON'T PROVIDE ANY MORE OF THESE WEAPONS.

AND NOW THEY'RE SAYING WELL, NO, IT DOESN'T MEASURE UP TO OUR RED LINE SO TO SPEAK.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, PRESIDENT BIDEN ISSUED THAT RED LINE FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

NUMBER ONE, HE KNEW IF HE SAW MAJOR MILITARY OPERATION IN GAZA, WE'D SEE A DRAMATIC REDUCTION IN THE DELIVERY OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

HE KNEW WE'D SEE A BIG SPIKE IN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

AND HE KNEW IT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER TO GET THE HOSTAGES BACK SAFELY.

AND THAT IS ALSO TRUE.

SO ALL THE THINGS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS WORRIED ABOUT HAVE COME TO PASS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S MY VIEW, CHRISTIANE, THAT THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO GET A FULL AND CLEAR COMMITMENT FROM THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT ON THEIR PLANS GOING FORWARD BEFORE WE CONTINUE TO SHOVEL MORE OFFENSIVE MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

AND WE NEED TO USE OTHER LEVERS OF OUR INFLUENCE TO SUPPORT A PARTNER, BUT MAKE SURE IT'S A TWO-WAY STREET WHEN WE DO THAT.

>> SO THAT'S A QUESTION, THEN.

DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE LEVERAGE?

I MEAN, IT DOES.

BUT IS IT PREPARED TO USE IT?

IT APPEARS -- AGAIN, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE IMPRESSION WE GET, THAT ALL THE ADMONITIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS FROM ISRAEL'S BIGGEST BACKER, IE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, DON'T SEEM TO HAVE AFFECTED ACTION ON THE GROUND.

WE KEEP SEEING CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF NETANYAHU CALLED IT A TRAGIC MISTAKE THE OTHER DAY THAT WOULD BE INVESTIGATED.

ARE YOU -- ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT THE UNITED STATES IS ABLE TO USE ITS LEVERAGE, OR SHOULD BE USING MORE LEVERAGE?

>> OH, CHRISTIANE, I THINK WE SHOULD AND CAN BE USING MORE LEVERAGE IN ORDER TO PURSUE OUR INTERESTS, WHICH I BELIEVE ARE ALSO IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ISRAEL, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE RAFAH OPERATION, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF WHAT'S NEXT?

AFTER ALL, BENNY GANTZ SAYS HE IS GOING TO LEAVE THE WAR CABINET SHORTLY IF HE DOESN'T SEE A POST WAR PLAN FOR GOVERNING GAZA.

SO YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES COULD TAKE THE POSITION THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO CONTINUE TO PROVIDE A BLANK CHECK UNTIL WE SEE A POST WAR PLAN THAT MEETS OUR CONCERNS MEETS THE INTEREST THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ANNOUNCED.

INSTEAD WE SEE PASTIME NETANYAHU PUBLICLY AND REPEATEDLY REBUFFING THE UNITED STATES.

WHETHER IT'S FOR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION PROVIDE SOME LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL AS PART OF THE NORMALIZATION AGREEMENT WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND OTHERS, TIME AND AGAIN WE SEE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU REBUFFING THE POSITION AND THE REQUESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO YES, WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE TO EXERCISE OUR INFLUENCE.

>> BUT SENATOR, YOU KNOW, AND I JUST MADE REFERENCE TO IT IN THE INTRODUCTION, THAT FAR FROM DOING WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SUGGESTED, AND ACTUALLY MOST OF ISRAEL'S ALLIES HAVE SUGGESTED, IN FACT, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER HAS COME OUT AND SAID THAT HE EXPECTS THIS WAR TO GO ON FOR THE NEXT SEVEN MONTHS, TO THE END OF THIS YEAR.

I MEAN, THAT'S IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

>> IT IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION.

LOOK, THE UNITED STATES HAS A NUMBER OF LEVERS THAT IT CAN USE.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE SHOULD NOT CONTINUE TO SEND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS WITHOUT ANY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE.

WE SHOULD MAKE SURE WHEN WE TAKE ACTION AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL IT ALIGNS WITH U.S.

INTERESTS.

THE U.S. WILL BE FACING ANOTHER RESOLUTION ALGERIA PLANS TO BRING WITH RESPECT TO THE RAFAH SITUATION.

SO THE UNITED STATES CAN NO LONGER JUST BE A BLANK CHECK FOR THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE OUR VALUES ARE REFLECTED IN THESE DECISIONS.

AFTER ALL, UNITED STATES TAXPAYERS HAVE FUNDED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN WEAPONS THAT HAVE GONE TO THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

SO IT IS TIME FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO EXERCISE MORE LEVERAGE TO ACHIEVE THE PRESIDENT'S OWN STATED GOALS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, BECAUSE REPUBLICAN SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM IS IN ISRAEL.

HE TOLD PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, AND I'LL QUOTE IT AGAIN, THAT ISRAEL WILL NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AMERICA'S SUPPORT.

YES, BUT CAN TWO THINGS EXIST AT THE SAME TIME?

AMERICA CONTINUES ITS HISTORIC SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, WHILE ALSO USING THE KIND OF LEVERAGE YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED TO STOP THE KILLING, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS IN RETALIATION FOR THE SLAUGHTER OF OCTOBER 7th.

BUT ALSO TO STOP WHAT SENATOR SCHUMER HAS SAID, A REAL RISK THAT ISRAEL FINDS ITSELF LESS AND LESS SECURE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE ISOLATED.

>> WELL, THAT'S RIGHT.

LOOK, OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO SUPPORT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE.

OUR PRIORITY, IT SEEMS EVEN MORE THAN PASTIME NETANYAHU PRIORITY IS TO GET ALL THE HOSTAGES A HOME, INCLUDING SOME U.S. CITIZENS.

SO WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING RIGHT NOW IS PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU PUTTING HIS OWN POLITICAL AMBITION, HIS OWN POLITICAL INTERESTS OVER THE BEST INTERESTS OF STATE OF ISRAEL.

THIS IS WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WITHIN ISRAEL ARE SAYING.

AND THE UNITED STATES CANNOT SIMPLY JUST ATTACH ITSELF TO NETANYAHU AND THIS EXTREME GOVERNMENT.

SO DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME THE WAR HAS BEEN GOING ON IN GAZA, WE'VE ALSO SEEN THE BIGGEST LAND GRAB EVER IN THE WEST BANK WITH, YOU KNOW, FINANCE MINISTER, BUT HE DID IT WITH THE ACQUIESCENCE OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

WE SEE CONTINUING EXTREMIST VIOLENCE.

WE SEE A GOVERNMENT AND A COALITION THAT WAS THE MOST EXTREME GOVERNMENT IN THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL ESSENTIALLY NOW TAKING ACTIONS THAT SERVE THEIR OWN CONTINUITY IN GOVERNMENT RATHER THAN THE INTERESTS OF ISRAEL.

AND CERTAINLY, CONTRARY TO THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE WE BROKE THE STORY MORE THAN A WEEK AGO, AND WE HAD AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE CHIEF PROSECUTOR, THE ICC, KARIM KHAN WHERE HE ANNOUNCED HE WAS LOOKING FOR ARREST WARRANTS FOR BOTH THE ISRAELI AND HAMAS LEADERSHIP.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> WELL, MY VIEW, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT THE WAY IT WAS PACKAGED WITH THE WARRANTS BEING ISSUED BOTH FOR HAMAS LEADERS AND ISRAELI LEADERS CREATED THE FALSE IMPRESSION OF EQUIVALENCE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE PROSECUTOR'S OWN STATEMENTS, HE DREW NO EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN THE AWFUL OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS ON ISRAEL AND THE WANTON MURDER AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE, AND HIS CHARGES WITH RESPECT TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, RESTRICTING THE DELIVERY OF ESSENTIAL HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

I THINK THE BIGGER POINT RIGHT NOW IS WHETHER PEOPLE AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE ACTIONS OF THE PROSECUTOR.

WE SHOULD NOT, WE THE UNITED STATES SHOULD NOT BE SUGGESTING OR TAKING ACTION TO SANCTION THE OFFICERS OF THE COURT OF THE ICC.

THAT WOULD UNDERCUT IN MY VIEW OUR OVERALL STANDING, AND WE SEND A VERY, VERY BAD MESSAGE.

IN OTHER WORDS, PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE WITH THE CHARGES AND THE APPROACH, BUT WE SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BUSINESS OF GOING ABOUT SANCTIONING MEMBERS OF THE COURT.

>> SENATOR, AS YOU KNOW, AND I JUST HAVE TO SAY IT, BECAUSE KARIM KHAN SAID TO ME THE EQUIVALENCE IS ABOUT THE VICTIMS, THE HORROR THAT'S BEEN PURPOSED ON THE VICTIMS RATHER THAN EQUIVALENCE AMONGST ALLEGED PERPETRATORS.

BUT BE THAT AS IT MAY, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU ALSO, IS IT RIGHT AND PROP THEY'RE A GROUP OF REPUBLICAN SENATORS ACTUALLY BEFORE EVEN THIS HAPPENED SENT THIS LETTER TO KARIM KHAN, WHICH WAS A WARNING, AND HE READ IT AS A THREAT, "TARGET ISRAEL, AND WE WILL TARGET YOU.

IF YOU MOVE FORWARD WITH THE MEASURES INDICATED IN THE REPORT, WE WILL MOVE TO END ALL AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR THE ICC, SANCTION YOUR EMPLOYEES AND ASSOCIATES, AND BAR YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES FROM THE UNITED STATES.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED."

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> THAT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

THAT IS THUGGISH BEHAVIOR, MORE BEFITTING THE MAFIA THAN THE UNITED STATES SENATORS THAT THREATEN A PROSECUTOR AND HIS STAFF AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND SO THIS IS WHAT I MEANT, CHRISTIANE, BY SAYING YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH THE DECISION OF THE PROSECUTOR TO BRING CHARGES, BUT TO PERSONALLY THREATEN THE PROSECUTOR, AND EVEN MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY IS TOTALLY, TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

>> I WONDER IF YOU HAVE ANY REACTION.

WE HAVE NOT BE ABLE TO GET CONFIRMATION OF THIS.

BUT "THE GUARDIAN" NEWSPAPER AND A VERY, YOU KNOW, REPUTABLE AND INVESTIGATIVE OPERATION IN ISRAEL, 972 FOUND THAT THE FORMER HEAD OF MOSSAD THREATENED THEN ICC PROSECUTOR CHIEF FATOUB BEN SUDA.

THEY WANTED HER THEN TO DROP INVESTIGATIONS THAT WERE POTENTIALLY UNDER WAY THEN.

AND WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID SANCTION FATOUB VAN SUED WHICH PRESIDENT BIDEN RESCINDED.

THIS IS PAR FOR THE COURSE.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRACY.

THE U.S. IS A DEMOCRACY.

WHAT'S HAPPENING?

DO YOU BELIEVE IN ACCOUNTABILITY?

>> I SAW THOSE REPORTS, CHRISTIANE.

AND IF THEY ARE IN FACT TRUE, THEY ARE ALSO OUTRAGEOUS AND TROUBLING, TO GO ABOUT THREATENING OFFICERS OF A JUDICIAL BODY IF THEY TAKE ACTIONS THAT YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH OR MAKE FINDINGS THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHY THE UNITED STATES IS AT GREAT RISK OF ISOLATING OURSELVES IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

BY PLAYING A DOUBLE STANDARD HERE.

WE NEED TO APPLY THE SAME RULES TO OUR FRIENDS AND PARTNERS AS WE DO TO OUR FOES AND ADVERSARIES IF WE'RE GOING HAVE A VALUES-BASE CREDIBLE FOREIGN POLICY.

THAT IS THE CENTER OF OUR POLICY, AND THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF HAS SAID.

THEN WE RISK JEOPARDIZING ALL OF THAT IF WE GO AROUND THREATENING THE COURTS AND INTERNATIONAL BODIES WITH RETRIBUTION, PERSONAL RETRIBUTION AGAINST, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS OF THE COURTS AND THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.

THAT SERVES THE INTERESTS OF PEOPLE LIKE PUTIN AND XI.

AFTER ALL, WE EMBRACE THE ICC DECISION WITH RESPECT TO CHARGES AGAINST PUTIN.

SO WHEN HE SEES US ATTACKING THE ICC, HE SAYS YOU SEE?

I TOLD YOU SO.

>> YEP, INDEED.

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW 30 YEARS AGO, THE WORLD WAS SHOCKED BY THE MURDER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND HER FRIEND RON GOLDMAN.

HER ABUSIVE EX-HUSBAND O.J.

SIMPSON WAS PUT ON TRIAL FOR THE MURDERS, BUT IN A VERDICT WHICH ULTIMATELY SHOCKED AND THRILLED, HE WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY.

HE WAS LATER FOUND LIABLE FOR BOTH DEATHS IN A CIVIL SUIT.

AMID THE MEDIA FRENZY BACK THEN, NICOLE HERSELF WAS OFTEN FORGOTTEN.

NOW A NEW DOCUMENTARY SERIES "THE LIFE AND MURDER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON" HOPES TO CORRECT THAT.

AND HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> WHO IS NICOLE?

WHO IS SHE?

BECAUSE SHE GOT LOST IN THIS WHOLE THING.

>> SHE WASN'T A HEADLINE OF A TRAGEDY.

SHE WAS SO MUCH MORE.

>> HELLO SYDNEY!

>> HER CHILDREN MISSED OUT.

HER FAMILY MISSED OUT ON THE >> AT THE CENTER OF THE SERIES ARE THOSE WHO KNEW HER BEST, NICOLE'S SISTERS, NICOLE, DENISE AND DOMINIQUE.

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH THEM ABOUT HOW THEY CAME TO TERMS WITH THEIR LOSS AND THE MESSAGE OF MISOGYNY AND ABUSE THEIR SISTER EXPERIENCED.

DENISE, TANYA AND DOMINIQUE, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> SO THERE YOU ARE IN NEW YORK.

IT IS 30 YEARS SINCE THE TRAGIC MURDER OF YOUR SISTER AND HER FRIEND.

AND I WAS STRUCK, DENISE, BY HOW THIS DOCUMENTARY STARTED WITH YOU ABSOLUTELY POINT-BLANK REFUSING TO SAY THE NAME OF THE MAN SHE WAS MARRIED TO.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DECIDED HAD TO BE THE FOCUS OF THIS DOCUMENTARY SERIES?

>> I WANTED TO HUMANIZE NICOLE.

I WANTED TO FOCUS ON NICOLE AND NOT -- YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN SO MANY DOCUMENTARIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE ABOUT HIM, ABOUT THE TRIAL, ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE.

PEOPLE WOULD ASK US TO DO -- TO DO DOCUMENTARIES OR TO DO THINGS REGARDING NUCKOL, ABOUT NICOLE, AND IT WOULD ALWAYS TURN INTO A NEGATIVE.

SO WHEN I WAS ASKED, GOSH, IT WAS ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO WHEN WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS AT THE 20-YEAR MARK.

AND I THOUGHT NO, THIS DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT.

AND THEN THE 25-YEAR MARK.

NO.

IT DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT.

BUT THEN THE 30th, WE SAT DOWN AND SAID YOU KNOW WHAT?

SHOULD WE DO IT?

LET'S DO IT.

LET'S HUMANIZE NICOLE.

LET'S GET HER VOICE OUT THERE.

LET'S LET PEOPLE KNOW, LET'S LET THE WORLD KNOW WHO NICOLE REALLY WAS.

>> YOU WANT TO PUT NICOLE, YOUR SISTER, FRONT AND CENTER OF THIS NARRATIVE.

IT DOES ALSO HAPPEN TO COME JUST AFTER THE DEATH OF O.J.

AND I WONDER HOW YOU INTERNALIZE THAT.

I WONDER WHETHER IT WAS ANOTHER TRIGGERING MOMENT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I GOT A CALL FROM A NETWORK, AND THEY SAID O.J.

DIED.

AND I WENT -- I CALLED MY SISTER DOMINIQUE.

AND SHE TURNED ON THE TV.

I HAD JUST MOVED.

I DIDN'T HAVE A TV.

SHE GOES OH MY GOD, IT'S TRUE.

AND TOGETHER WE STARTED TO CRY.

IT WAS SAD.

IT WAS LIKE A CHAPTER, A JOURNEY OF OUR LIVES OVER 50 YEARS WAS LIKE OVER.

BUT THIS DOCUMENTARY IS BRINGING NICOLE TO LIFE.

WE JUST SPOKE TO SOMEBODY AND SHE SAID IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY.

SHE SAID THIS IS A LOVE LETTER TO THE WORLD.

THIS IS LETTING PEOPLE KNOW HELLO, MY NAME IS NICOLE, AND THIS IS MY STORY.

>> SO AS I DON'T SAY, IT'S REALLY TIMELY THAT YOU'RE DOING THIS.

WE'RE GOING PLAY THE FIRST CLIP OF THIS INTERVIEW.

AND IT IS ABOUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE EARLY DAYS.

YOU WANT EVERYBODY TO SEE THE NICOLE THAT YOU THREE KNEW PERSONALLY.

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS CLIP.

♪♪♪ >> I FEEL LIKE I'VE KEPT MY NICOLE REALLY PRIVATE FOR SO LONG.

SHE WAS VERY, VERY STUBBORN.

SHE WAS VERY, VERY DETERMINED TO THE POINT WHERE SHE WAS GOING TO DO WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO, NO MATTER WHAT.

MY MOM CALLED HER HARD HEADED.

MAYBE IT'S TIME TO REKINDLE THE FLAME OF NICOLE.

>> DOMINIQUE, TELL US WHAT YOU'D LIKE TO REKINDLE ABOUT NICOLE.

>> WELL, NICOLE WAS A BEACH GIRL ORIGINALLY.

SHE WAS A BEACH GIRL, BUT HER LIFE AT 18, SHE HAD TO BE AN ADULT.

SHE GOT MARRIED.

SHE LOST A LOT OF HER 20s AND 30s.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE A FREEDOM TO EXPERIENCE.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE THAT KIND OF A LIFE TO EXPERIENCE.

AND I'D LIKE TO REKINDLE THE NICOLE THAT WE KNEW, A FREEDOM ABOUT HER, AN EASE ABOUT HER.

HER ABILITY AS A MOTHER, HER LOVING NATURE.

SHE WAS JUST SO HOSPITABLE AND WARM AND CARING.

AND I THINK IT SHOWS IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.

I THINK IT SHOWS IN THE VIDEO CLIPS THAT WE'VE HAD THAT SHE TOOK, THAT OUR FATHER TOOK, THAT OTHER PEOPLE TOOK.

AND ALL OF THESE THAT ARE COMPILED TOGETHER SHOW WHAT A BEAUTIFUL MOTHER AND A BEAUTIFUL SOUL NICOLE REALLY WAS.

>> AND DENISE, I WAS REALLY TAKEN BY THE FACT THAT IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, YOU AND NICOLE WERE THE CLOSEST IN AGE.

AND YOUR MOTHER IS GERMAN.

>> YES.

>> AND YOU BOTH WERE BORN IN GERMANY.

I THINK YOUR FATHER WAS STATIONED THERE FOR THE MILITARY, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.

AND YOU LEARNED GERMAN, WHICH WAS KIND OF YOUR CODE LANGUAGE AS YOU WERE GROWING UP.

>> IT WAS.

IT WAS OUR SECRET LITTLE LANGUAGE.

NICOLE AND I, WE WERE BOTH BORN IN FRANKFURT.

AND IT WAS -- MY MOM ALWAYS TOLD ME, DENISE, YOU WERE SO PROTECTIVE OF NICOLE.

AND WHEN WE WERE WALKING NICOLE IN A BABY CARRIAGE, PEOPLE WANTED TO COME OVER AND SEE HER.

AND I JUST SAID NO, DON'T GET CLOSE, DON'T GET CLOSE.

SO I FELT LIKE, OKAY, I TOOK ON THAT PROTECTIVE ROLE WHEN I WAS ALL OF WHAT, 2 YEARS OLD.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WANTED TO DO THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS.

AFTER HER MURDER, I WANTED TO STILL PROTECT HER, BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE JUST -- THEY WERE SO NASTY AND SO HURTFUL AND SAYING SO MANY HURTFUL THINGS THAT I FELT LIKE I HAD TO KEEP THAT ROLE AND KEEP PROTECTING MY SISTER.

PROTECTING MY FAMILY.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA CAN BE VERY CRUEL.

AND THEY WERE.

AND SO OFTENTIMES I JUST FIGURED YOU KNOW WHAT?

SOMEBODY'S GOT TO BE OUT THERE TAKING THE BLOWS.

AND I WAS OKAY WITH THAT, BECAUSE BACK IN THE DAY WHEN I WAS MODELING, I WOULD -- THEY RIP ME APART AND PUT ME BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.

AND IT WAS OKAY BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE GOOD CRITICISM.

AND I WAS OKAY WITH THAT.

PROTECT MY FAMILY OF ALL THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY THAT IS OUT THERE AND, YOU KNOW, KEEP PLAYING THAT ROLE AS A PROTECTIVE SISTER.

>> I WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT, BECAUSE I WONDER WHETHER DOMINIQUE AND TANYA HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS OVER THE YEARS.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR SISTER, SHE'S THE ONE WHO WAS MURDERED ALONG WITH HER FRIEND, WHY WAS SHE THE TARGET OF A SMEAR CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO WIN.

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK IT WAS PART OF THE SIDE OF THE TRIAL TO MAKE HER LOOK -- >> YEAH.

>> UNIMPORTANT, THAT SHE WAS WORTH GETTING RID OF OR SOMETHING, JUST DEMEANING HER.

IT WAS UGLY.

IT WAS HORRIBLE.

AND IT WAS VERY HARD TO WATCH AND TO LISTEN TO.

>> SHE TURNED INTO A COMMODITY.

>> AND TANYA, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST EPISODE OF THE SERIES ACTUALLY SHOWS HER AS A LOVING AND BESOTTED WIFE.

I MEAN, SHE WAS ALL IN HER MARRIAGE.

SHE LOVED HER HUSBAND.

SHE LOVED HER CHILDREN.

WE'LL GET TO SOME OF THE HIDDEN DARKNESS IN A MOMENT.

WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU ALL -- WERE YOU ALL IN THE COURT WHEN THE VERDICT CAME DOWN IN 1995?

WERE YOU THERE, TANYA?

>> YES.

>> YES.

>> YES, I WAS.

AND IT WAS -- I'LL NEVER FORGET THAT DAY.

THE WAY I DESCRIBE IT, IT'S LIKE YOU'RE GOING UP A HILL OF A ROLLER COASTER.

YOU'RE CLENCHING ON TO I REMEMBER I WAS JUST CLENCHING ON TO THE BENCH.

AND I FELT LIKE I WAS GOING UP THE BIGGEST HILL OF A ROLLER COASTER.

AND I JUST WANTED TO IT COME DOWN.

AND THAT ANTICIPATION IN YOUR GUT.

YOU KNOW THAT THE DROP IS GOING TO BE SCARY, NO MATTER WHICH WAY IT'S GOING TO BE.

AND WHEN THAT VERDICT WAS READ AND THAT ROLLER COASTER CART CAME CRASHING DOWN, I REMEMBERED I LOOKED TO THE BAILIFF TO MY LEFT, AND I SAID "I NEED TO GO."

AND SHE SAID "I CAN'T LET YOU GO."

I JUST REMEMBER I WANTED TO GET OUTSIDE.

I NEEDED TO BREATHE.

I WANTED LIKE -- OUR BROTHER ROB TURNED TO ME.

CAN WE GO?

WE CAN'T GO.

THEY WOULDN'T LET US OUT OF THE COURTROOM.

AND I JUST FELT LIKE I NEEDED AIR.

IT WAS -- WHETHER IT WAS GOING TO BE A GUILTY VERDICT OR AN INNOCENT VERDICT OR A NOT GUILTY, IT JUST -- EITHER WAY, IT WOULDN'T -- IT'S HARD.

>> I THINK WE WERE ALL IN SHOCK.

I THINK I WAS DEFINITELY IN SHOCK.

AND I COULDN'T CRY.

I COULDN'T -- I HAD LIKE ZERO FEELING.

IT WAS LIKE WOW.

THE FLOOR WAS JUST RIPPED OPEN.

WE JUST FELL INTO A HOLE.

YEAH, NO, IT WAS A TOUGH DAY.

DEFINITELY A TOUGH DAY.

AND THE ONLY THING THAT I REMEMBER IS -- IS MY MOTHER SAYING WE HAVE TO GET HOME FOR THE KIDS.

SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE DID.

THERE WAS A PRESS CONFERENCE AFTERWARDS, AND WE SAID FORGET IT.

WE'RE GOING HOME FOR THE CHILDREN.

>> LET US TALK ABOUT THE CHILDREN FOR A MOMENT, THEN.

BECAUSE FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, YOU HAVEN'T WANTED TO PUT THEM INTO THE SPOTLIGHT.

YOU'VE ALL TRIED TO PROTECT THEM.

O.J.

WAS STILL ALLOWED TO SEE THEM, EVEN AFTER THEIR MOTHER WAS KILLED, EVEN AFTER THE TRIAL.

AND DOMINIQUE, YOU ARE -- YOU GOT CUSTODY OBVIOUSLY AFTER HER DEATH.

BUT DOMINIQUE, YOU ARE THE GODMOTHER OF SYDNEY, THE DAUGHTER.

NOW THEY'RE FULLY GROWN.

>> I AM.

>> HAVE THEY -- HAVE YOU HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM?

HAVE YOU ALL AT A FAMILY, I DON'T KNOW, RESOLVED THIS WITHIN YOU?

OR DO YOU STILL TRY TO PROTECT THEM?

WHAT DO THEY THINK ABOUT THIS DOCUMENTARY SERIES, FOR INSTANCE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU ASK, BECAUSE WE STILL REFER TO THEM AS THE KIDS.

AND I THINK THAT I WILL CONTINUE TO BE PROTECTIVE OF THEM.

I DIDN'T GO ON TV.

I DIDN'T GOOD OUT AND SPEAK.

I KEPT A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM AND I THINK THAT WAS THE PART OF IT.

IS THAT I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BECOME CONTROVERSIAL.

AND SOMETHING THAT I HAD KIND OF VOWED TO MYSELF AND VOWED TO NICOLE AND HELPING MY PARENTS AND HELPING MY MOTHER WHEN THE CHILDREN WERE VERY LITTLE.

WE LIVED IN A COMMUNITY THAT WAS VERY PROTECTED.

WE HAD A GUARD.

AT THE FRONT.

AND EVEN THOUGH THAT PEOPLE COULD COME WITHIN A DISTANCE, THE MEDIA AND SO FORTH, WE MAINTAINED THAT PROTECTIVE BARRIER FOR THEM.

WE DID NORMAL THINGS.

WE PLAYED WITH THEM.

WE ATE DINNER TOGETHER.

WE COMMUNITIED AT THE COFFEE TABLE.

>> PLAYED BASKETBALL.

>> WE PLAYED BASKETBALL.

WE WENT TO SPORTING EVENTS.

WE ALL MOVED IN TO THE BIG HOUSE AND HAD DIFFERENT PORTIONS OF IT.

I REMEMBER SLEEPING IN MY ROOM WITH ALL OF THE CHILDREN, DENISE'S SON, MY SON AARON, SYDNEY, JUSTIN, WHOEVER FRIENDS CAME OVER AND MYSELF.

AND WE WOULD ALL SLEEP TOGETHER IN A ROOM BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

IT WAS JUST TO FIND NORMALCY.

AND I THINK THAT I'VE CONTINUED THAT PROTECTIVE NATURE THROUGHOUT IT.

I DON'T STATE WHETHER I THINK HE WAS GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY.

AND I WON'T.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY MY WAY OF STILL BEING PROTECTIVE OF THE CHILDREN.

AND ON THE SAME SIDE, THEY DO KNOW ABOUT THE SPECIAL.

THEY DO KNOW THAT THERE ARE VERY MANY DYNAMICS, THAT THERE ARE HAPPY TIMES, THAT THERE ARE VIDEO CLIPS THAT SHOWS NICOLE AS A MOTHER AND AS IN HER NATURE AS A MOTHER AND A WIFE AND FAMILY PERSON.

BUT IT ALSO ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THERE IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND THAT IT'S A VERY DYNAMIC SPECIAL.

AND KNOWING WHETHER THEY'LL WATCH IT OR NOT IS ANOTHER QUESTION.

BUT WE'VE LEFT EVERYTHING TRANSPARENT.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

>> AND OBVIOUSLY THE HEART OF THIS IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, DOMESTIC ABUSE, WHAT THEY CALL INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE.

AND IT'S BECOME AN ISSUE TODAY.

I'M GOING GET TO CUSTODY IN A MOMENT.

BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CUSTODY, DENISE, I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP FROM THE SERIES.

AS WE SAID, AFTER THE ACQUITTAL, YOUR FAMILY LOST CUSTODY OF THE CHILDREN.

AND I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP OF YOU DISCUSSING THAT PAINFUL MOMENT, DENISE.

WE'RE GOING PLAY YOU THIS.

>> WE HAD CHRISTMAS EVE WITH THEM.

AND ON CHRISTMAS DAY, HE CAME TO PICK THEM UP.

AND IT WAS MY MOM AND I, WE WERE STANDING OUT ON THE DRIVEWAY.

I'M GOING TO CRY AGAIN.

JUSTIN WENT UP TO MY MOM, AND HE HANDED HER A PIECE OF CHOCOLATE.

HE SAID TITA, IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

WE STARTED WALKING INTO THE HOUSE TOGETHER.

AND I JUST THOUGHT THAT'S THE NASTIEST THING ANYBODY COULD EVER DO.

COULDN'T YOU JUST WAIT UNTIL AFTER CHRISTMAS?

WHY COULDN'T YOU WAIT ANOTHER DAY?

IT WAS JUST AWFUL.

IT WAS JUST TO HURT MY MOM.

>> GOSH, DENISE, I CAN SEE YOU GETTING EMOTIONAL, JUST ALL OF YOU.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

THAT WAS THE HARDEST DAY.

IT WAS REALLY SO, SO HARD, AND HEARTBREAKING AND YOU SEE THIS LITTLE BOY JUST LOOKING UP AT HER, TITA, EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE OKAY AND HANDING HER A PIECE OF CHOCOLATE, BECAUSE HE KNEW HOW MUCH SHE LOVED CHOCOLATE.

IT JUST -- OH MY GOD.

MY MOM AND I, WE TRIED TO KEEP A STRAIGHT FACE AT THAT POINT.

AND THEN ALL OF THE SUDDEN WE TURNED AROUND AFTER THEY TURNED THE CORNER, WE WERE WAVING.

AFTER THEY TURNED THE CORNER, WE TURNED AROUND AND JUST BROKE DOWN IN TEARS.

I MEAN, THAT WAS THE HARDEST DAY.

JUST THE HARDEST DAY EVER.

SO SAD.

ABOUT IT.

>> I CAN SEE IT.

I CAN SEE IT.

OBVIOUSLY, I CAN SEE IT, ALL OF YOU REACTING.

AND PARTICULARLY SINCE YOU KNEW ABOUT THE VIOLENCE THAT SHE HAD ENDURED AND THAT SHE HAD TOLD A FEW PEOPLE, NOT MANY PEOPLE.

AND DENISE, YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THAT, WHAT YOU WITNESSED.

BUT GWEN WRIGHT FROM THE NEW YORK DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ASSISTANCE SAID THE AVERAGE JUROR ON THE TRIAL DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AT THE TIME.

SO TANYA, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT -- >> RIGHT.

>> -- ABOUT THIS BIG OVERARCHING CRISIS, THIS CRIME OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAT APPARENTLY PEOPLE DIDN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BACK THEN.

NOW MUCH MORE SO.

BUT BACK THEN, NO.

>> EXACTLY.

YEAH, BACK THEN, AGAIN, THIS IS 30 YEARS AGO.

TODAY I THINK IT'S PERFECT TIMING THAT THIS DOCUSERIES IS COMING OUT BECAUSE WE LIVE IN AN ERA WHERE THERE IS SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOCIAL INJUSTICES.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOMESTIC ABUSE, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, SUICIDE, ET CETERA.

SO I THINK THIS IS A PERFECT TIME TO REALLY SPREAD AND ADVOCATE AGAIN FOR NICOLE, FOR THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN THROUGHOUT WHO DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYBODY.

>> VIOLENCE DOESN'T DISCRIMINATE.

AND WE KNOW THAT.

AND SO THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SIDE OF THIS IS TO KEEP NICOLE'S LEGACY ALIVE.

SHE DID A LOT OF CHANGE.

A LOT OF CHANGE HAPPENED AFTER NICOLE'S MURDER.

PEOPLE WERE RUNNING TO THEIR LEGISLATORS.

THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT WAS PASSED.

I ENDED UP GOING TO WASHINGTON, D.C. JOE BIDEN AND/OR REN HATCH CO-AUTHORED THE FIRST AND THEY ASKED ME TO TALK ABOUT IT IN CONGRESS.

WE WERE ABLE TO RAISE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY WHICH WAS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT THROUGH NICOLE'S MURDER, THE NATIONAL 24 DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE WAS FORMED.

THE VINE SYSTEM WAS FORMED.

VICTIM NOTIFICATION EVERY DAY.

THERE WERE SO MANY WONDERFUL PROGRAMS THAT CAME INTO PLACE AFTER NICOLE'S MURDER.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE SADDEST PART FOR ME IS THAT IT HAD TO TAKE MY SISTER'S LIFE BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN WORKING ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND PASSING THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT PROBABLY TEN YEARS PRIOR TO NICOLE'S MURDER.

AND PEOPLE WERE WORKING ON THAT.

AND SO FOR ME, IT TOOK NICOLE'S LIFE IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

BITTERSWEET.

I JUST WISH IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE AND MAYBE POSSIBLY SAVED NICOLE'S LIFE AS WELL.

>> SO LET ME ASK THE OTHER TWO OF YOU SISTERS, JUST TO SUM UP, THEN.

TANYA, YOU SAID TOWARDS THE BEGINNING THAT IN THE COURT YOU COULDN'T BREATHE.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU CAN BREATHE NOW, AND PARTICULARLY WITH THIS SERIES COMING OUT AND HER STORY, NICOLE'S STORY BEING TOLD.

>> YOU KNOW, ABSOLUTELY.

AGAIN, IT'S BEEN 30 YEARS.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF THERAPY OVER 30 YEARS.

WATCHING THE DOCUMENTARY, I WAS VERY SHOCKED.

I BECAME VERY ANGRY AND ONLY BECAUSE IT'S A BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL DOCUSERIES, BUT I WALKED AWAY VERY ANGRY BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE THAT HE INFLICTED ON HER.

BUT I CAN -- I'VE BEEN BREATHING FOR A LONG TIME.

I'VE BEEN HEALING.

I'VE GONE THROUGH A LOT OF TRAUMA, NOT JUST NICOLE.

I THINK FOR ONCE I CAN HONESTLY SAY AUTOMATICALLY I'M IN A GOOD PLACE IN MY LIFE.

>> AND DOMINIQUE, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY ON BEHALF OF YOU THE SISTERS TO OTHER FAMILIES WHO ARE EXPERIENCING THIS KIND OF VIOLENCE, THIS KIND OF LIVING IN THE SHADOWS OF NOT WANTING TO TALK ABOUT, PEOPLE WHO MAY BE IN DANGER RIGHT NOW?

>> OH MY GOODNESS.

I -- THERE IS SO MUCH THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS DOCUSERIES ABOUT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND THERE IS SO MUCH I'VE LEARNED OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEARS THAT IN RETROSPECT WE PROBABLY COULD HAVE SEEN THE SIGNS.

THE HONEYMOON PHASE, THE FIGHTS, THE INSINUATIONS, THE THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED THAT WE WERE NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH TO NOTICE OR TO KNOW BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW IT.

I THINK DENISE STATES IT VERY WELL WHEN SHE SAYS THAT THE BEST THING THAT FAMILIES AND LOVED ONES CAN DO IS EDUCATE THEMSELVES SO THEY DON'T ASK WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE OR WHY ARE YOU STAYING WITH THEM?

THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES WHEN IT COMES TO THIS KIND OF SITUATION.

IT'S VERY TENDER.

>> AND YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, THAT'S WHAT I DID.

WHY YOU STAYING WITH HIM?

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEAVE?

AND I SAID ALL THE WRONG THINGS.

UNTIL WE GOT EDUCATED ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO SPEAK TO A VICTIM OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

>> THERE WERE SO MANY SIGNS LOOKING BACK, YOU FAT PIG WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SO MUCH VERBAL ABUSE.

AND THEN LOCKING HER UP IN A WINE CLOSET, BEATING HER AND GOING BACK AND WATCHING TV, GOING BACK.

FOR HOURS, SIX, EIGHT HOURS SHE WAS LOCKED IN A WINE CLOSET.

SO THE ABUSE THAT SHE ENDURED WAS SIGNIFICANT.

NICOLE LIVED IN HELL.

FINDING OUT THAT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED EVEN AFTER HER MURDER AND THE CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR OF THIS GUY, IT JUST -- PEOPLE NEED TO NOT ASK THE WHY QUESTION, BUT THEY NEED TO BE SUPPORTIVE AND LEARN EVERYTHING THEY CAN, BECAUSE VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ARE USUALLY ASHAMED OF COMING FORWARD AND TALKING ABOUT IT.

AND A FRIEND OF OURS, RON HARDY PUT IT THE BEST.

HE SAYS "NICOLE DIDN'T LET US KNOW BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO PROTECT HER FAMILY AND HER FRIENDS."

>> YEAH.

>> AND THAT MADE ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD TO ME.

>> WELL, TO YOU ALL, DENISE, DOMINIQUE AND TANYA BROWN, IN MEMORY OF YOUR SISTER, THIS DOCUMENTARY SERIES IS SURE TO GIVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF FOCUS ON HER, ON THE ISSUE, AND HOPEFULLY TO HELP, YOU KNOW, OTHERS AS WELL.

EDUCATIONAL AS WELL.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> YEAH.

>> WE HOPE.

>> SO THAT'S THE GOAL.

THAT'S THE GOAL.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO IT'S OUT THIS WEEKEND.

AND IT TOOK THE VERY PUBLIC MURDER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON TO FINALLY PASS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT IN THE U.S. BACK IN 1994.

NOT LONG AFTER, THE NATIONAL DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE RECEIVED ITS FIRST CALL.

IF YOU'VE BEEN AFFECTED BY ANY OF THESE ISSUES, THAT NUMBER IS NOW ON SCREEN.

>>> AND OUR NEXT GUEST IS USING HIS PLATFORM TO ADVOCATE FOR GREATER AWARENESS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE FOLLOWING THE SHOCKING VIDEO OF RAPPER SEAN "DIDDY" COMBS ASSAULTING HIS THEN GIRLFRIEND CASSIE VENTURA.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD IS A TELEVISION HOST, AUTHOR AND CO-HOST OF THE INFLUENTIAL RADIO SHOW "THE BREAKFAST CLUB ".

HE IS FAMED FOR HIS CANDID INTERVIEWS WITH CELEBRITIES AND POLITICIANS AND CULTURAL.

HIS LATEST BOOK IS "GET HONEST OR DIE LYING: WHY SMALL TALK SUCKS."

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY HE IS ENCOURAGING THE WORLD TO EMBRACE MORE MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

HOW YOU?

>> I'M GOOD.

LOOK, MOST PEOPLE KNOW YOU AS THE CO-HOST OF "THE BREAKFAST CLUB," SUPER POPULAR RADIO SHOW.

YOU'VE BECOME AN IMPORTANT VOICE AS A POLITICAL COMMENTATOR.

YOU'VE ALREADY WRITTEN A COUPLE OF BOOKS, BUT THIS ONE IS DIFFERENT.

AS YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, YOUR PREVIOUS BOOKS WERE ABOUT YOURSELF.

BUT THIS ONE IS ABOUT US, OR THE AUDIENCE, AS I GUESS I WOULD PUT IT.

WHY THE CHANGE?

WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS MISSING?

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?

>> MY FIRST BOOKS WERE VERY PERSONAL TO ME, MYSELF.

THE BOOKS THAT I LIKE TO READ A LOT OF TIMES ARE USUALLY IN THE SELF-HELP VEIN, AND MALCOLM GLADWELLS, THE RYAN HALLIDAYS, THOSE INDIVIDUALS USE A LOT OF HISTORICAL CONTEXT TO BACK UP A LOT OF THEIR BELIEFS OR LAWS, YOU KNOW.

IN THE CASE OF RODERICK GREEN, I'M NOT THAT SMART.

SO MY HISTORICAL CONTEXT COMES FROM ME AND MY LIFE.

BUT WITH THIS BOOK, IT WAS MORE SO NOT JUST THINGS ABOUT ME, BUT MORE SO OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE WORLD AT LARGE.

OBSERVATIONS ABOUT SOCIETY, WHETHER IT'S MENTAL HEALTH WHICH I'M A BIG MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE, OR POLITICS, OR SOCIAL MEDIA.

JUST ALL THESE THINGS THAT I FEEL LIKE ARE RUINING OUR CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AND CAUSING US TO MAKE A LOT OF MICROS, MACROS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW SUSTAINABLE THAT IS FOR US.

>> I JUST WONDERED, WAS THERE SOME SORT OF A TRIGGERING EVENT THAT SAID TO YOU I REALLY NEED TO SPEAK ON THIS?

>> I THINK JUST OBSERVING THE WORLD FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS, YOU KNOW.

OBSERVING THE WORLD WITH A LOT MORE CLARITY BECAUSE OF -- BECAUSE OF THERAPY, BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE MEDICATION, BECAUSE OF PLANT-BASED MEDICINE.

JUST OBSERVING THE WORLD WITH A LOT MORE CLARITY AND DISCONNECTING, RIGHT.

WHEN YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM SOMETHING, WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO MAKE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO SAY MAN, I SEE WHERE THIS SOCIAL MEDIA STUFF IS TAKING US, AND I DON'T REALLY WANT TO BE A PART OF LIKE THAT.

SO I'M NOT -- I HAVEN'T BEEN ON TWITTER SINCE 2018.

YOU GO ON MY TWITTER, IT'S A BUNCH OF PROMO STUFF.

I DON'T GO ON TIKTOK.

FOR ME, IT WAS JUST WATCHING HOW SOCIAL MEDIA WAS LITERALLY TAKING OVER PEOPLE'S MINDS, THEIR BRAINS.

I WAS WATCHING PEOPLE GET ONLINE AND NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT TO THINK OR FEEL ABOUT SOMETHING UNTIL THEY SAW WHATEVER THE MASS CONSENSUS WAS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

AND THAT WAS SCARY TO ME.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHEN I NAMED THE BOOK GET HONEST OR DIE LYING, OF COURSE, THAT'S A PLAY OFF ONE OF THE GREATEST HIP-HOP ALBUMS OF ALL TIME, 50 CENT.

BUT IT ALSO WENT AWAY ON A SPIRITUAL RETREAT EARLIER THIS YEAR.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME UP FOR ME IS STOP LYING TO YOURSELF AND STOP VOLUNTEERING THOSE LIES TO OTHER PEOPLE.

WHEN I LOOK AT SOCIAL MEDIA NOW, I SEE SO MANY PEOPLE LYING TO THEMSELVES.

AND THEY'RE LYING TO THEMSELVES AND THEY'RE VOLUNTEERING THESE LIES TO OTHERS.

THEY'RE WILLINGLY PROJECTING ALL OF THESE LIES ON TO OTHER PEOPLE.

AND ONCE AGAIN, I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW SUSTAINABLE THAT IS.

IF IT'S SUSTAINABLE AT ALL.

AND IT'S SCARY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE COMPLAINED ABOUT IS THAT THE NUANCE OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY IS LOST, RIGHT.

IS THAT PEOPLE FEEL I ASSUME BECAUSE YOU'RE AN AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN, THAT YOU LEAN LEFT.

BUT IF YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT LEANS RIGHT OR THAT SEEMS TO LEAN RIGHT, THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA EATS IT UP.

BUT IF YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T AGREE WITH, THEN THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE SAID IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE, YOU DON'T WANT TO ENDORSE ANYBODY.

YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE GOING TO VOTE, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ENDORSE ANYBODY.

THAT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF HUBBUB.

I'M JUST NOT SURE HOW DO YOU RECAPTURE THE NUANCE?

HOW DO YOU RECAPTURE THE NUANCE OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY AND TO BE HEARD IN YOUR TOTALITY?

>> BEING OUT ON THE BOOK TOUR THE PAST WEEK, AND YOU KNOW, DOING A LOT OF THE DIFFERENT PRESS THAT I DO, EVERYBODY HAS NARRATIVES THAT THEY WANT TO PUSH.

I FEEL LIKE SOME JUST DO IT BETTER THAN OTHERS.

I FEEL LIKE THE RIGHT HAS A NARRATIVE THAT THEY STICK TO, AND THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THEY CAN GET ONE THAT HELPS PUSH WHATEVER NARRATIVE IT IS.

AND RIGHT NOW FOR THE LAST FEW MONTHS, IT'S BEEN BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT REALLY IN LOVE WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

THE NUMBERS FOR DONALD TRUMP ARE STARTING TO RISE IN REGARD TO THE BLACK VOTER, WHICH I THINK IS A LITTLE BIT OVERSTATED.

BUT ANYTHING THAT CAN HELP WITH THAT NARRATIVE.

SO IF CHARLAMAGNE SAYS JOE BIDEN IS AN UNINSPIRING CANDIDATE WITH NO MAIN CHARACTER ENERGY, THAT'S THE HEADLINE.

FORGET CHARLAMAGNE SAYING DONALD TRUMP IS TARGETING DEMOCRACY, TRIED TO SUSPEND THE CONSTITUTION, OVERTHROWN THE RESULTS OF AN ELECTION.

FORGET ALL OF THAT.

WE'RE GOING TO STICK TO OUR NARRATIVE.

THAT'S WHAT -- THAT'S WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT DOES.

THE LEFT, ALL THEY DO IS PAY ATTENTION TO THE NARRATIVE THAT THE RIGHT PUTS OUT THERE.

SO THEY NEVER, EVER CREATE THEIR OWN NARRATIVES.

I CAN GO ON A SHOW LIKE WITH YOU AND THEY'LL ASK ME WHY I DON'T WANT TO ENDORSE.

AND I CAN SAY ALL OF THESE THINGS ABOUT TRUMP.

AND LITERALLY SAY THERE IS ONLY TWO CHOICES.

SO I'M CLEARLY GOING TO VOTE FOR THE PERSON I THINK WILL PRESERVE DEMOCRACY.

INSTEAD OF THEM SIMPLY SAYING WHO THAT INDIVIDUAL IS, THEY WILL KEEP PUSHING ME, PUSHING ME, PUSHING ME TO SAY IT MYSELF.

I JUST THINK THAT'S VERY STRANGE.

BUT WHAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THE PEOPLE.

OVER THIS PAST WEEK, I'VE DONE ALL THIS DIVERSE PRESS, BUT I'VE ALSO BEEN AT THESE BOOK SIGNINGS TALKING TO PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S WHO I ALWAYS GET MY INFORMATION FROM.

MY INFORMATION ONLY COMES FROM THE PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE WHO CALL INTO THE RADIO STATION EVERY MORNING, THE PEOPLE WHO I MEET IN THE STREET FROM SOUTH CAROLINA TO NEW JERSEY TO L.A.

I TALK TO PEOPLE.

AND WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME THEY UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING.

AND NOT ONLY THAT THEY FEEL WHAT I'M SAYING.

YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS.

A QUARTER OF THE COUNTRY FEELS THE WAY I DO.

THEY HAVE UNFAVORABLE VIEWS ABOUT BOTH CANDIDATES.

SO WHEN I MEET THESE PEOPLE WHO ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT I'M SAYING, AND THEY UNDERSTAND WHY I'M SAYING IT, THAT'S WHAT GIVES ME HOPE.

BUT I HAVE ZERO FAITH IN MEDIA.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT THAT EVERYBODY IS A SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCER.

AND THERE IS NOT A DAY THAT GOES BY WHERE THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE TO SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS WITH THE WORLD.

THE RESULT IS WE'RE BEING DESIEGED BY A NEVER ENDING CASCADE OF THOUGHTS, OPINIONS, RANTS, LECTURES, AND READS.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

AS A PERSON, YOU'RE DISCUSSING IT YOURSELF.

YOU'RE A PERSON WHO KIND OF GETS INTO THE DAILY FLOW OF CONVERSATION.

SO SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

WHAT IS IT THAT TROUBLES YOU?

>> IT'S NOT THOUGHTFUL, THAT IT'S NOT SINCERE, THAT IT'S A JOB FOR ME.

IT'S SOMETHING THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO DO, JUST BECAUSE THEY'VE CREATED THE SPACE TO DO IT.

THERE IS A LOT OF MONETIZATION INVOLVED.

ONCE START, YOU'RE TOO PAID.

ONCE YOU START, YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, YOU CONSTANTLY WANT THAT ENGAGEMENT.

SO, YEAH, FOR ME, IT'S JUST THAT IT'S NOT -- IT'S THOUGHTFUL.

IT'S NOT COMING FROM A GOOD PLACE.

IT'S NOT LIKE EDITORIAL THAT YOU WOULD READ BACK IN THE DAY.

IN A MAGAZINE OR IN A NEWSPAPER WHERE THERE WAS ACTUAL STAKES.

THERE WAS CONSEQUENCES TO REPORTING THE WRONG THING.

THERE WAS CONSEQUENCES TO REPORTING FALSE INFORMATION.

NOWADAYS, PEOPLE ARE JUST MAKING THINGS UP FOR CLICKS.

AND NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE TRUTH WHEN THE LIE IS MORE ENTERTAINING.

SO NOW IT'S JUST LIKE YEAH, PEOPLE ARE DOING ANYTHING, SAYING ANYTHING, WRITING ANYTHING, YOU KNOW, JUST FOR THE ALGORITHM.

AND I DON'T LIKE THAT.

I THINK THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS AND IT'S THE OLD SCHOOL PART OF ME THAT WANTS PEOPLE TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR WORDS THE SAME WAY I HAD TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF MINE.

AND STILL, I HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF MINE NOW.

AND THAT'S EVERYTHING FROM YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BE SUED.

YOU CAN GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE.

YOU CAN GET FINED BY THE FCC.

YOU CAN GET FIRED.

THERE IS ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT I HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT MAKES ME UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, FREE SPEECH AIN'T FREE.

AND SO THAT'S WHY I WANT A LOT OF THIS GENERATION TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT AS WELL.

>> HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT PEOPLE STILL WANT TO HEAR YOU TALK NONSENSE ABOUT CELEBRITIES.

THEY DO.

IT'S ENTERTAINING FOR PEOPLE.

AND ALSO FOR PEOPLE IT'S A DISTRACTION FROM THE HEAVINESS OF THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

SO HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT OUT?

>> IT'S GOING HAPPEN.

IT'S NOT LIKE IN THE BOOK I'M SAYING LET'S CUT ALL THE SMALL TALK.

I'M SAYING LET'S MINIMIZE IT, RIGHT?

BUT ALSO, ONE THING I'VE ALWAYS TRIED TO DO, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO CELEBRITIES, I WANT TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE INDIVIDUAL AND ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE.

WHAT IS THE BROADER ISSUE THAT WE CAN DISCUSS.

I FEEL LIKE THAT'S USUALLY THE CASE ARE WITH ANY CELEBRITY STORY.

YOU CAN FOCUS ON THE INDIVIDUAL IF YOU WANT.

THERE IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE THAT I STARTED TO SAY UNDERLINE.

BUT REALLY IS NOT UNDERLINED.

RIGHT NOW YOU LOOK AT A SITUATION LIKE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH DIDDY AND CASS IT IS.

EVERYBODY WANTS TO FOCUS ON THE CELEBRITY, TALK ABOUT WHO'S GOING TO STILL BE PLAYING DIDDY'S MUSIC AND WHAT COMPANIES NOT WORKING WITH DIDDY NO MORE.

BUT THE ISSUE SHOULD BE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

THE ISSUE SHOULD BE MEN REALLY DOING THAT REAL INTERNAL WORK ON THEMSELVES SO THEY DEAL WITH WHATEVER HURT AND PAIN AND TRAUMA THEY GOT IN THEM THAT STOP PROJECTING THAT ON TO OUR WOMEN.

THE ISSUE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE PATRIARCH.

BECAUSE AS LONG AS MEN ARE IN THESE POSITIONS WHERE THEY'RE AT THE TOP AND WOMEN ARE SUPPOSEDLY UNDERNEATH THEM, YOU'RE GOING TO ALWAYS HAVE THESE SITUATIONS WHERE MEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID, PROJECT THAT PAIN AND HURT ON SOMETHING THEY THINK THEY OWN, BUT THEY DON'T.

THOSE ARE THE CONVERSATIONS WE SHOULD BE HAVING.

LONG AFTER DIDDY AND CASSIE IS NO LONGER IN THE NEWS CYCLE, THERE IS GOING TO BE WOMEN ALL OVER THIS WORLD BEING VICTIMS OF THE PATRIARCHY.

WOMEN ALL OVER THE WORLD BEING VICTIMS OF SOME MAN WHO AIN'T DEALT WITH HIS HURT, AND HE'S PROJECTING THAT ON TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

SO TO ME, THAT SHOULD BE THE CONVERSATION.

IT WAS ALWAYS THE BIGGER ISSUE.

THAT'S WHY I NAMED THE BOOK "WHY SMALL TALK SUCKS" BECAUSE WE DON'T FOCUS ON THE MACROS THE WAY HE WE SHOULD.

>> LOOPING BACK TO POLITICS, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID IS ONE OF THE REASONS YOU DON'T WANT TO ENFORCE THIS YEAR IS YOU WANT PEOPLE TO START FOCUSING ON THE ISSUES AS OPPOSED TO THE PERSONALITIES.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SORT OF ON THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT OR LET'S JUST SAY AREN'T CONSERVATIVE FIND IT EASIER TO BE TOUGHER ON THE DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THEY'LL TAKE IT.

IS THE REPUBLICANS WILL GET UP AND WALK OUT OR THEY'LL MAKE YOU THE ISSUE, OR THEY'LL GET ON A SHOW SO THEY CAN JOUST WITH YOU SO THEY CAN START A TWITTER FIGHT, WHATEVER, AN X FIGHT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'LL TOLERATE IT.

IT'S JUST THAT THAT IS THE PARTY THAT I VOTED IN.

IF YOU'RE A PROGRESSIVE, NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN, IF YOU'RE A PROGRESSIVE, YOU VOTED IN.

SO IF YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE -- IF YOU PUT THESE PEOPLE IN A POSITION OF POWER AND THEY'RE NOT DOING WHAT THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO, YOU'RE GOING TO RAISE HOLY HELL WITH THEM, AS YOU SHOULD.

JUST LIKE CONSERVATIVES DO WITH OTHER CONSERVATIVES.

IF THERE IS A CONSERVATIVE THAT ISN'T FALLING IN LINE WITH WHAT THEY WANT, THEY'RE GOING TO SHAKE THEM UP.

LIKE DONALD TRUMP WILL HAVE A MILLION NICKNAMES FOR THAT PERSON BY TONIGHT IF THEY DON'T FALL IN LINE WITH WHAT OTHER REPUBLICANS WANT TO DO.

FOR THEY ARE A CONSERVATIVE WHO GOES AGAINST THE GRAIN, THEY GET CHASTISED.

THEY GET ALMOST EXILED OFF THE ISLAND.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PROGRESSIVE CHALLENGES DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS, BECAUSE YES, I'M MORE PISSED OFF AT THEM THAN I CONSERVATIVES BECAUSE I VOTED YOU IN.

I VOTED YOU IN BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS.

AND IF THESE THINGS AREN'T BEING DONE, I GOT TO HOLD YOUR FEET TO THE FIRE.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS?

YOU HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE JUST DOING A VERY POOR JOB OF COMMUNICATING.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I HONESTLY THINK BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL MOVING LIKE POLITICIANS.

AND CONSERVATIVES ARE MOVING LIKE REGULAR EVERYDAY PEOPLE.

CONSERVATIVES HAVE REALIZED THAT REALLY, TRULY, NOTHING IS A DEAL BREAKER ANYMORE.

YOU KNOW.

I REMEMBER DONALD TRUMP SAID THAT DURING HIS FIRST CAMPAIGN.

I CAN GO WALK OUT I THINK IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET AND SHOOT SOMEBODY IN THE HEAD AND NOBODY WOULD CARE.

AND EVERYBODY WAS OH MY GOD.

THE PROBLEM IS EVERYBODY WAS TOO BUSY FOCUSED ON WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID AND THEY WERE TAKING IT LITERAL AS OPPOSED TO WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SAY OVERALL, THE METAPHOR HE WAS USING SO TO SPEAK WAS AIN'T NOBODY TRIPPING OFF NONE OF THAT NO MORE.

SO YOU SEE A GREAT MOVIE WHICH I LOVE, BULWORTH, STARRING WARREN BEATTY.

DEMOCRATS NEED A BULWORTH.

CONSERVATIVES HAVE THEIR BULWORTH IN THE NAME OF DONALD J. TRUMP.

THE DIFFERENCE WITH THE CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS IS CONSERVATIVES ARE MORE SINCERE ABOUT THEIR LIES THAN DEMOCRATS ARE ABOUT THEIR TRUTH.

DEMOCRATS HAVE TRUTH THEY CAN TELL.

THEY HAVE REAL WAGES THAT THEY'VE PUT ON THE BOARD OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

BUT THEY'RE JUST NOT ABLE TO COMMUNICATE IT.

AND WHEN THEY DO, THEY DO IT WITH THEIR VOICE SHAKING SO DON'T NOBODY REALLY BELIEVE THEM.

MEANWHILE, YOU'VE GOT THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE LYING THROUGH THEY TEETH, BUT WITH CONVICTION.

SO FOLKS BELIEVE IT.

AND THAT'S WHY I WATCH -- I LIKE TO LOOK AT BOTH SIDES.

I'M GOING TO WATCH FOX, CNN, MSNBC, BECAUSE I LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT ONE THING.

BUT I LOVE TO SEE THE DIFFERENT ANGLES THAT THEY ARE APPROACHING FROM.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, HOW YOU?

YOU HAVE BEEN REALLY OPEN AND VERY HONEST ABOUT YOUR STRUGGLES WITH PANIC ATTACKS AND ANXIETY.

AND THAT'S WHY YOU BECOME A MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE, AS YOU SAY.

YOU'RE VERY OPEN ABOUT YOUR COMMITMENT TO THERAPY AND SELF-WORK.

HOW YOU?

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING.

THIS WEEKEND WAS ROUGH.

I WAS HAVING LIKE SOME REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BAD PANIC ATTACKS THIS WEEKEND, REALLY, REALLY, BAD BOUTS OF DEPRESSION THIS WEEKEND.

>> I'M SORRY.

>> YEAH, IT WAS ONE OF THOSE TIMES, I HAD TO HAVE AN EMERGENCY.

I HAD TO CALL MY THERAPIST ON SUNDAY MORNING BECAUSE IT STARTED HITTING ME SATURDAY NIGHT.

AND I HAD TO CALL MY THERAPIST SUNDAY MORNING TO REALLY GET SOME CLARITY ABOUT SOME THINGS.

AND ACTUALLY WROTE IT DOWN.

THAT'S CRAZY YOU ASK ME THIS.

BUT I WROTE IT DOWN.

ONE OF THE THINGS HE SAID ANXIETY COMES WITH DOING NEW THINGS.

IT'S UNHUMAN FOR IT NOT TO BE.

ANY TIME YOU PUT OUT A BOOK, IT'S KIND OF LIKE REVEALING A PIECE OF FLESH.

IT'S A NEW PIECE OF YOURSELF.

SO EVERY BOOK IS DIFFERENT.

AND EVERY BOOK IS UNIQUE.

BUT YOU'RE SHARING THINGS WITH PEOPLE.

I DON'T KNOW WHY, MAN, IT ALL HIT ME SATURDAY, OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY'RE PEEKING INTO YOUR HOUSE SO TO SPEAK.

AND EVEN THOUGH I HAVE BOOKS BEFORE ON "THE NEW YORK TIMES" BEST SELLERS, NATIONAL BEST SELLERS AND ALL THAT, I DON'T KNOW WHY, THIS ONE JUST HIT ME A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

AND I FEEL LIKE THERE IS PROBABLY A LOT OF NEW EYEBALLS ON ME AS WELL.

AND THE THING ABOUT IMPOSTOR SYNDROME, IT WAITS FOR THOSE MOMENTS WHEN THAT ANXIETY REALLY IS KICKING IN.

AND THAT LITTLE BIT OF DEPRESSION POPS IN.

A LITTLE BIT OF DOUBT.

AS SOON AS THAT LITTLE BIT OF DOUBT POPS IN, HERE COMES THE IMPOSTOR SYNDROME LIKE YEAH, YEAH, BEEN WAITING ON YOU, BIG SHOT.

OH, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE POPULAR.

AND IT'S JUST YOU START GOING, YOUR MIND STARTS GOING ALL OVER THE PLACE.

SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I'M DOING A LOT BETTER RIGHT NOW IN THIS MOMENT THAN I WAS THIS WEEKEND, BUT IT'S STILL LINGERING A LITTLE BIT.

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT.

I THINK EVERY TIME YOU KIND OF OPEN THE DOOR TO YOUR OWN LIFE, I THINK YOU CREATE SPACE FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THE SAME.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

APPRECIATE YOU.

>> INDEED.

OUR GUESTS TONIGHT HAVE REALLY CREATED SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO OPEN UP ABOUT WHAT'S CONCERNING THEM, AND HOPEFULLY TO TELL EVERYBODY THAT IT'S OKAY TO OPEN UP.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, IT'S THE SOLAR SPECTACLE THAT SENDS PEOPLE FLOCKING TO THE STREETS OF NEW YORK CITY, ALL IN THE NAME OF A GOOD PHOTO OP.

LUCKY NEW YORKERS WERE TREATED TO THE UNIQUE URBAN PHENOMENON KNOWN AS MAN HASN'T HENGE WHEN THE SUN ALIGNS PERFECTLY WITH STREETS AND CANYONS TO PROVIDE ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST PHOTOGRAPHED SUNSETS.

LASTING ONLY A FEW MINUTES, RAYS OF GOLDEN LIGHT SHOOT DOWN THE LONG STRAIGHT ROADS FRAMED BY SKYSCRAPERS.

AND FOR ANYONE WHO MISSED IT, THERE IS ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO CATCH IT TONIGHT.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND