May 5, 2020

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE U.S. AND CHINA CLASH OVER THE ORIGINS OF CORONAVIRUS.

IS A NEW COLD WAR BREWING?

I ASK THE FORMER LABOR SECRETARY ROBERT REICH AND POLITICAL SCIENTIST IAN BRAMMER.

> THEN -- ♪♪♪ DR. DAVID KNOX HAS BEEN SAVING LIVES IN WAR ZONES FOR OVER 25 YEARS.

NOW HE'S RETURNED TO THE FRONT LINE WITH THE NHS HERE IN LONDON FIGHTING CORONAVIRUS.

> PLUS -- ♪♪♪ OVERSEEING THE MONEY TRAIL.

ON POLICING CONGRESS' CORONAVIRUS RELIEF FUND.

'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- ROSALIND P. WALTER.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS -- AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR WORKING FROM HOME IN LONDON.

THE WAR OF WORDS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA OVER HOW CORONAVIRUS STARTED IS ESCALATING AND EVEN IGNITING FEARS OF A NEW TRADE WAR.

ONE EDITORIAL IN CHINA'S 'GLOBAL TIMES' ACCUSES SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO OF LYING AND, QUOTE, SPEWING FALSEHOODS.

CHIN NIECE STATE MEDIA CALLS HIM EVIL.

THIS AFTER POMPEO SAID THERE WAS ENORMOUS EVIDENCE THE CORONAVIRUS EMANATED IN A LAB IN WUHAN DESPITE WHAT U.S.

INTELLIGENCE SAYS.

MEANWHILE, GLOBAL MARKETS GOT SPOOKED AGAIN BY PRESIDENT TRUMP BANGING THE TRADE DRUM.

SO HOW WILL THE TWO BIGGEST ECONOMIC POWERS EMERGE FROM THIS CRISIS?

AND HOW WILL THE ECONOMICS OF THIS PANDEMIC IMPACT ORDINARY WORKERS IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD?

FORMER LABOR SECRETARY ROBERT REICH IS AN EXPERT ON THE WIDENING WEALTH GAP BESIEGING AMERICA AND ON CHINA'S ECONOMY.

HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED 'THE SYSTEM: WHO RIGGED IT, HOW WE FIX IT.'

POLITICAL SCIENTIST IAN BREMMER IS EXAMINING WHERE OPPORTUNITIES MIGHT EMERGE AFTER THIS CRISIS.

AND THEY'RE BOTH JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME.

WELCOME, SECRETARY REICH, FROM SAN FRANCISCO.

LET ME ASK YOU BEFORE TURNING TO IAN TO JUST TELL ME FROM YOUR POSITION AS A FORMER GOVERNMENT MINISTER, CABINET SECRETARY, WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS ESCALATING DRAMA OF ANOTHER BIG POWER IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS HUGE HEALTH AND ECONOMIC CRISIS.

WELL, I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA WOULD BE IN TENSION.

THEY'VE BEEN IN TENSION FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

WILL BE IN TENSION IN YEARS TO COME.

THEY'RE TWO BIG SUPERPOWERS BUT THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE OBVIOUSLY A PANDEMIC AND WE ALSO ARE ON A BRINK OF A GLOBAL DEPRESSION, MAYBE GREAT DEPRESSION, AND TO HAVE THE TWO SUPERPOWERS OF THE WORLD AT THE BRINK OF NOT, YOU KNOW, A TRADE WAR, MORE OF A COLD WAR, IS REALLY THE LAST THING WE NEED.

I WORRY THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MAY BE TRYING TO DEFLECT ATTENTION FROM ITS OWN SHORTCOMINGS IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THIS PANDEMIC BY WANTING TO BLAME CHINA JUST LIKE IT WANTS TO BLAME THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

LET ME TURN TO YOU, IAN BREMMER, BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST WRITTEN YOUR LATEST NEWSLETTER FOCUSING A LOT ON CHINA.

YOU'RE, OF COURSE, THE FOUNDER OF THE EURASIA GROUP.

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE CHINA MIGHT FIT IN THE AFTERMATH, FRANKLY, CURRENTLY, RIGHT NOW GIVEN THE VACUUM OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

CLEARLY, THERE ARE NO WINNERS COUNTRY WISE THAT COMES OUT OF THE WORST ECONOMIC RECESSION OF OUR LIFETIMES.

EVERYONE WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BUT CHINA CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE GEOPOLITICAL VACUUM LEFT IN THE ABSENCE OF AMERICAN AND ABSENCE FROM TRANS-ATLANTIC LEADERSHIP GLOBALLY AND YOU SEE THAT WITH THE FACT THE CHINESE ECONOMY HAS RESTARTED EFFECTIVELY, THE SUPPLY CHAIN IS ALMOST FULLY BACK UP AND FUNCTIONAL AND PROBABLY NOT GOING TO CONTRACT THIS YEAR WHILE THE AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS DO AND THEY'RE IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY THE TRADE TIES AND THE CREDIT THEY OFFER AND EXTEND TO SOME OF THE POOREST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

ADD THAT TO THE FACT THAT CHINESE TECHNOLOGY IS COMPETING WITH THE U.S. AND NOBODY ELSE HAS THE TECH FIRMS THE AMERICANS, THE CHINESE DO, THEIR ABILITY TO GAIN IN STRENGTH AND ALIGNMENT WITH A LOT OF THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE VERY CLEAR ON THE BACK OF THIS CRISIS.

NOW, YOU SAY THEY PROBABLY WON'T CONTRACT LIKE THE REST.

THEY DID ANNOUNCE EARLIER THAT THEIR FIRST QUARTER FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 50 YEARS THEY HAD A REAL SLOWDOWN IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH.

AND I JUST WONDER, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO PLAY A SOUNDBITE WHICH HAS JUST COME IN FROM THE NEW NOMINEE AS DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE WHO'S BEEN QUESTIONED BY THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, JOHN RATCLIFFE IS THE NOMINEE, AND HE WAS PUTTING CHINA AS THE BIGGEST THREAT FOR AMERICA GOING FORWARD.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

I'VE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT I VIEW AS THE GREATEST THREAT AND THE GREATEST THREAT ACTOR AND I VIEW CHINA AS THE GREATEST THREAT ACTOR RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN, LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE WITH RESPECT TO COVID-19 AND THE ROLE THAT CHINA PLAYS.

THE RACE TO 5G.

CYBERSECURITY ISSUES.

ALL ROADS LEAD TO CHINA THERE.

SO, ROBERT REICH, WE STARTED TO TALK ABOUT HOW ALL OF THIS, ALL OF THIS RHETORIC FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IS LEADING TO, YOU KNOW, WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TALKING ABOUT POTENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, POTENTIAL ANOTHER ROUND OF TRADE WAR.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, NOT JUST FOR THE GLOBAL ECONOMY IN THE MIDDLE OF WHAT YOU PREDICT IS POTENTIALLY A DEPRESSION AND EVEN A GREAT DEPRESSION, BUT FOR PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY, IN THE UNITED STATES?

WELL, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING GOOD, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED AN ECONOMY THAT IS UP AND RUNNING.

THERE IS A TREMENDOUS LACK OF AGGREGATE DEMAND.

THAT IS, YOU CAN'T RUN AN ECONOMY IF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IF THERE ARE NOT CUSTOMERS AND THOSE CUSTOMERS ARE MOSTLY GOING TO BE AND HAVE TO BE IN THE UNITED STATES AMERICAN CONSUMERS, AMERICAN CONSUMERS CONSTITUTE ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THE U.S. ECONOMY.

BUT THE OTHER CUSTOMERS HAVE TO BE FROM OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES AND SAY WHAT YOU WILL.

CHINA HAS BEEN A VERY IMPORTANT CUSTOMER.

IF YOU START A TRADE WAR OR A WORSE TRADE WAR THAN WE ALREADY HAVE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC AND A DEPRESSION, RECESSION, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, YOU'RE ASKING FOR MORE AND MORE HARDSHIP ON MORE -- FOR MORE AND MORE PEOPLE.

THIS ECONOMY IS ALREADY ON THE BRINK OF A DEPRESSION.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A DEPRESSION THAT IS REALLY ON PAR VERY SIMILAR TO THE GREAT DEPRESSION OF THE 1930s IF WE ARE NOT VERY CAREFUL.

SO LET ME JUST PLAY NOW WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID JUST RECENTLY SAY TO -- ABOUT THIS ISSUE IN A FOX NEWS TOWN HALL.

ARE YOU CONSIDERING NEW TARIFFS ON CHINA AS SORT OF A PUNISHMENT FOR THEIR HANDLING OF THE VIRUS?

WELL, IT'S THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT.

YOU HAVE EXPERTS --

AGAIN, I DON'T LIKE TO TELL YOU -- BECAUSE WE'RE ALL PLAYING A VERY COMPLICATED GAME OF CHESS OR POKER.

NAME WHATEVER YOU WANT TO NAME.

BUT IT'S NOT CHECKERS.

THAT'S I CAN TELL YOU.

WE HAVE A VERY COMPLICATED GAME GOING.

IAN BREMMER, IS IT SORT OF -- I DON'T KNOW -- PROTOCOL OR WHATEVER TO ACTUALLY DESCRIBE WHAT YOU'RE DOING AS CHESS OR POKER?

I'M NOT -- I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU NOTICED THE LANGUAGE THAT WAS BEING USED THERE AND HOW YOU THINK THE CHINESE WILL RESPOND TO THAT KIND OF DESCRIPTION OF THE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, GAME THAT'S BEING PLAYED?

THE CHINESE DO NOT WANT A FIGHT WITH THE AMERICANS.

I MEAN, YES, THEIR ECONOMY WON'T CONTRACT THIS YEAR BUT, STILL, EVEN IF THEY'RE FLAT OR 1% GROWTH, IT IS BY FAR THE WORST CRISIS THAT XI JINPING EXPERIENCED IN HIS LEADERSHIP AND HE COVERED IT UP AND LOOK BLOWBACK DOMESTICALLY FOR THAT AND HAVE THE AMERICANS LOOKING FOR LOADED FOR BEAR, DRAGGING AS IT WERE, AND HEADED TO A COLD WAR.

THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR A COLD WAR.

I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THE GOOD SECRETARY ON THAT AND THE CHINESE ARE NOT GOING TO RESPOND AND ESCALATE UNLESS THEY GET HIT IT'S NOT WHAT TRUMP SAYS.

HE'S BEEN CAREFUL BECAUSE AS MUCH AS HE WANTS TO BLAME THE CHINESE FOR CORONAVIRUS, HE ALSO DOESN'T WANT TO RIP UP THE PHASE ONE TRADE DEAL WHICH WOULD LEAD TO MORE TARIFFS THAT WOULD COST THE AVERAGE AMERICAN CONSUMER WHO'S ALREADY UNDER MASSIVE HARDSHIP FROM HAVING LOST THEIR JOBS.

INCREDIBLY, 20% OF THE U.S.

WORKFORCE IN 6 WEEKS OUT OF A JOB AND SUDDENLY EVERYTHING THEY BUY FROM CHINA IS GOING TO BE MADE 25% MORE EXPENSIVE?

TRUMP DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT IN THE RUN-UP TO THE ELECTION BUT GOING FROM 45% APPROVAL TO 35% TO 25% HIS WILLINGNESS TO BEAT ON CHINA AND JUST NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE AND SAY THIS IS THE REASON FOR OUR HARDSHIP, WAGGING THE DOG, I THINK THE POTENTIAL OF THAT GOES UP AND THAT'S A REAL DANGER FOR EVERYONE.

SO IN THIS MOMENT OF SORT OF AS YOU SAY A REAL DANGER FOR EVERYONE, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S A POSSIBILITY RIGHT NOW OF A MISCALCULATION BUT CLEARLY CHINA IS GOING ALL OUT, QUITE AGGRESSIVELY, ON THEIR DIPLOMATIC AND PROPAGANDA PUSHBACK, NOT JUST AGAINST THE ACCUSATIONS AND AGAINST THE OFTEN RIGHTFUL CRITICISM OF THE INITIAL HANDLING OF THE OUTBREAK, BUT ALSO, THEY'RE TRYING TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT THEY ARE PROVIDING THE KIND OF AID THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT PROVIDING AROUND THE WORLD.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT ALEX STAMOS WHO, AS YOU KNOW, IS THE FORMER CHIEF SECURITY OFFICIAL FOR FACEBOOK AND NOW RUNS THE INTERNET OBSERVATORY AT STANFORD, THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT CHINA'S INTENTIONS.

ONE OF THEIR GOALS IS TO ERODE AMERICAN SOFT POWER AND TO BUILD UP CHINESE SOFT POWER.

THEY'RE USING THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HIGHLIGHT THE WAYS THAT CHINA HAS REACTED WELL AND THE UNITED STATES HAS REACTED POORLY.

THEY'RE ALSO HIGHLIGHTING THE WAYS THAT CHINA IS EXPORTING AID.

SO WHO DOES THAT INFLUENCE?

WHO DOES THAT IMPRESS, IAN?

YOU KNOW, I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S GOING TO IMPRESS THAT MANY FOLKS IN THE SENSE THAT THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF AID THAT CHINESE ARE PROVIDING IS STILL LESS THAN THE HUMANITARIAN AID THAT THE UNITED STATES IS.

THERE'S A LOT OF SYMBOLISM AND RAMPING UP THE PR BUT IT HASN'T AMOUNTED TO MUCH.

FRANKLY, IN SOME OF THE CASES WHAT THEY HAVE GIVEN HASN'T EVEN WORKED.

THE MASKS, FAULTY.

THE TESTS, FAULTY.

THEY HAVE BEEN SENT BACK FROM EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

THEY'RE LEADING BY EXAMPLE BECAUSE THEIR ECONOMY IS BACK UP AN RUNNING ON THE SUPPLY SIDE WHILE THE AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS ARE SHUT DOWN AND MUCH MORE CONCERNED ABOUT A SECOND WAVE.

THE CHINESE WITH THE TECHNOLOGY EMPOWERED SURVEILLANCE STATE HAS A MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE CAPACITY TO CRACK DOWN ON PANDEMICS.

WE COULDN'T DO THAT IN THE U.S.

AND YOUR UK AND, FRANKLY, WE WOULDN'T WANT TO HAVE A SYSTEM LIKE THAT, BUT IT IS A PROBLEM ESPECIALLY WHEN THE AMERICANS ARE ACTIVELY ABDICATING THEIR INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP.

THAT'S WHY A LOT OF THE WEAKER ECONOMIES AROUND THE WORLD WILL FIND THEMSELVES FOR LACK OF A BETTER OPTION MORE ALIGNED WITH BEIJING.

SECRETARY REICH, I WANT YOU TO RESPOND TO THAT.

I MINE, IT'S AN INTERESTING THING WHAT IAN BREMMER JUST SAID THAT DEMOCRACIES WOULD NOT RESPOND OR WOULDN'T TAKE TO THE KIND OF DRACONIAN ACTIONS CHINA TOOK.

OTHERS IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY SAID CHINA DID EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD FOR A PERIOD OF TIME ONCE IT GOT WITH THE PROGRAM IN WUHAN TO ACTUALLY STAMP OUT THE VIRUS.

WHAT IS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN ALL THIS SO-CALLED LIBERATION PROTEST IN ORDER TO REOPEN THE ECONOMY BUT CAN YOU FROM WHERE YOU'RE SITTING BALANCE THE INDIVIDUAL GOOD AND RIGHT AGAINST THE GREATER SOCIAL GOOD?

THAT WHOLE SOCIAL CONTRACT.

THE SOCIAL CONTRACT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT HERE.

YOU DON'T NEED AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT TO PUSH THE SOCIAL CONTRACT AND THE COMMON GOOD.

AS SOUTH KOREA DID IT VERY WELL, AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND BOTH DEMOCRACIES ARE DOING IT VERY, VERY WELL.

GERMANY HAS DONE IT VERY WELL.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES THAT HAVE APPEALED TO THE COMMON GOOD, THE SOCIAL CONTRACT, AND HAVE CONQUERED -- NOT COMPLETELY CONQUERED THE VIRUS BUT CERTAINLY HAS DONE A MUCH, MUCH BETTER JOB THAN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE NO LEADERSHIP AT ALL.

IT IS ENTIRELY HAPHAZARD.

SOME STATES ARE DOING BETTER, NEW YORK CITY RIGHT NOW IS DOING BETTER THAN IT HAD BEEN DOING BUT OTHER STATES THAT ARE UNDER REALLY UNDER GREAT, GREAT RISK RIGHT NOW PUBLIC HEALTH WISE ARE OPENING THEMSELVES UP TO ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IN WAYS THAT COULD SERIOUSLY THREATEN A -- TO WORSEN, IN FACT, THE PROJECTIONS ARE WILL WORSEN THE DEATHS AND THE INFECTIONS.

SO IT'S A FAILURE OF DEMOCRACY IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S NOT REALLY A FAILURE OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE IT'S CONNECTED, AS WELL, WITH THE WHOLE SECONDARY -- WELL, THE HEALTH AND THE ECONOMY.

YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO READ A COUPLE THINGS BECAUSE THIS IS FROM A PAPER THAT YOU WROTE AND THE QUOTES FROM SCIENTISTS, BUT HERE IT IS.

'AVERAGE AMERICANS HAVE SEEN NO SIGNIFICANT GAINS IN THEIR INCOMES FOR FOUR DECADES ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.

MOST AMERICANS HAVE LITTLE OR NO INFLUENCE ON PUBLIC POLICY AND WHY THE TRUMP TAX CUT DID SO LITTLE FOR THEM AN AT THE CORE OF AMERICAN SYSTEM, 500 GIANT COMPANIES HEADQUARTERED IN THE UNITED STATES BUT MAKING AND SELLING THINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

HALF OF THEIR EMPLOYEES ARE NONAMERICAN LOCATED OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, A THIRD OF THEIR SHAREHOLDERS ARE NONAMERICAN.'

AGAIN, WHEN YOU SEE, OBVIOUSLY, THE CRISIS HITTING AMERICA AND THE WORLD IN TERMS OF ECONOMICS, WHERE DO YOU SEE EVEN WITH ALL THESE TRILLION, MULTITRILLION DOLLAR BAILOUTS, WHERE DO YOU SEE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN LANDING UP AFTER THIS?

THAT'S I THINK THE BIGGEST ISSUE IN TERMS OF DOMESTIC POLITICS AND ALSO THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS WORSE OFF, CLEARLY, THAN THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WAS SIX MONTHS AGO.

EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES MAKING FAR MORE MONEY OFF OF THIS PANDEMIC.

THEY ARE SELLING THEIR, YOU KNOW, SELLING SHARES OF STOCK SHORT.

THEY HAVE DONE THAT ALREADY OR THEY'RE HEDGING THEIR BETS OR THEY ARE BIG TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES THAT ARE POSITIONED TO EXERT THEIR MONOPOLY POWER TO AN EVEN GREATER EXTENT LIKE AMAZON.

NOW THE PROBLEM IS THAT MOST OF THE RELIEF PACKAGES THAT ARE COMING FROM WASHINGTON THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO GO TO AVERAGE PEOPLE HAVE NOT GONE TO AVERAGE PEOPLE.

MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOT ACTUALLY SEEN INCREASES IN THEIR OWN UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS OR ANY KIND OF FEDERAL HELP WHATSOEVER.

WHILE THE BIGGEST CORPORATIONS AND SOME OF THE WEALTHIEST PEOPLE IN AMERICA HAVE HAD TAX CUTS AND BAILOUTS AND TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THE BAILOUTS COMING FROM THE FED AND THE TREASURY AND FROM THE CORONAVIRUS LEGISLATION THROUGH CONGRESS.

THIS IS JUST AGGRAVATING A WIDENING INEQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S MAKING THE AVERAGE PERSON IN THE AMERICA FEEL LIKE THE GAME IS EVEN MORE RIGGED AGAINST THEM.

AND I SUSPECT THAT THIS IS GOING TO FOMENT A DEGREE OF POPULISM BOTH ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT, WHAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN YET AND WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF IT IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND VERY LASTLY TO YOU, PERHAPS, COUNTERINTUITIVELY, IAN BREMMER, YOU DID TALK ABOUT POTENTIAL SILVER LININGS OUT OF THIS TERRIBLE CRISIS.

EVERYBODY, OF COURSE, REMEMBERS FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF RAHM EMANUEL WHO SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF DON'T LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE A SILVER LINING?

WELL, RELATED TO THAT I WOULD SAY THERE ARE TWO POINT THAT IS FOR THE UNITED STATES.

ONE IS THAT COMING OUT OF THIS CRISIS EVEN THOUGH THE CHINESE ARE DOING BETTER WITH POORER COUNTRIES THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO LOOK MORE POWERFUL THAN ITS ALLIES AND THAT ASYMMETRY IS GROWING BECAUSE OF THE CRISIS, NOT WEAKENING.

THE BANKS ARE GOING TO BE UNDER STRESS BUT AMERICAN BANKS ARE MUCH STRONGER THAN THE EUROPEAN OR JAPANESE BANKS.

AMERICA HAS THE OVERWHELMING TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANTAGE FROM THE COMPANIES AN THE SECRETARY IS RIGHT, THE MONOPOLIES AREN'T ABOUT TO GET BROKEN UP, THEY'LL GET STRONGER.

YOU WON'T HAVE ELIZABETH WARREN SAYING BREAK THEM UP WHEN YOU NEED THEM TO RESTART THE ECONOMY OR THE EUROPEANS SAYING WE NEED OUR PRIVACY WHEN THEY NEED THEM, TOO.

SO THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO LOOK STRONGER COMING OUT OF THIS.

SECONDLY, IF YOU HAD TO HAVE A CRISIS THAT REDUCES, TAKES 10% OUT OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, AT LEAST THE KUN COMPANIES THAT ARE GOING TO DO THE BEST ARE THOSE TECHNOLOGICALTECHNOLOGICALPY.

MOST ADVANCED THOSE THAT HAVE INTEREST IN INNOVATING, HELP DEAL WITH THE KINDS OF CHALLENGES WE'RE GOING TO EXPERIENCE OVER THE NEXT 10, 20, YEARS.

IF WE HAD A 10% REDUCTION OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMY THAT SHUT DOWN THE DIGITAL SIDE, LET'S SAY A MASSIVE CYBER ATTACK FROM RUSSIA, AND INSTEAD THE BRICKS AND MORTAR COMPANIES DID MUCH BETTERING FRANKLY, OUR ABILITY TO INNOVATE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERABLY MORE CHALLENGING.

SO LOOK.

WE ALL KNOW THAT INEQUALITY WILL GROW.

THIS IS GOING TO FEEL MUCH WORSE FOR THE UNITED STATES AND GLOBALLY FOR THE AVERAGE CITIZEN, BUT THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO COME OUT OF THIS CRISIS I HOPE WE WON'T LET LAY TO WASTE.

WELL, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

IAN BREMMER AND SECRETARY ROBERT REICH, GREAT TO HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVES AND EXPERTISE ON THIS.

> NOW WE'RE GOING TO TURN TO GREECE.

WITH THE SECOND OLDEST POPULATION IN EUROPE AND AN ECONOMY THAT NEVER TRULY RECOVERED FROM THE 2008 FINANCIAL MELTDOWN, IT SEEMED PARTICULARLY AT RISK, BUT WITH FEWER THAN 3,000 CASES AND 146 DEATHS, IT IS SO FAR ONE OF THE SUCCESS STORIES.

DODGING A BULLET COMPARED TO ITALY AND SPAIN AND THE UK, ALL RAVAGED BY THIS DISEASE.

WE SPOKE TO THE GREEK PRIME MINISTER EARLY IN APRIL AFTER HE ENFORCED A STRICT LOCKDOWN AND HE TOLD US THE POPULATION WAS COMPLYING TO FLATTEN THE CURVE AND NOW CORRESPONDENT NIC ROBERTSON IS IN ATHENS FOR AN UPDATE TO TAKE THE TEMPERATURE AS THE COUNTRY REEMERGES AND PREPARES TO WELCOME TOURISTS AGAIN.

Reporter: WELCOME TO GREECE.

THE NEW NORMAL.

ATHENS INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT.

WOW.

THANK YOU.

THOROUGH COVID-19 TESTING.

WE'RE NEGATIVE.

EVERYONE OFF OUR FLIGHT IS GETTING IT.

IT'S TOUGH LOVE, BUT GREECE IS DEFYING EXPECTATIONS.

DESPITE AN AGING POPULATION AND CREAKING HEALTH CARE, IT IS HOLDING OFF COVID-19.

IT'S NO EASIER IF YOU LIVE HERE.

UNTIL THIS WEEKEND, JUST TO LEAVE HOME, YOU HAD TO REGISTER WITH THE GOVERNMENT, TEXT A NUMBER, 1 THROUGH 6, GO TO THE PHARMACY, BUY GROCERIES, EXERCISE, ALL PART OF A HARD, FAST LOCKDOWN.

GREECE'S NEW PRAGMATIC PRIME MINISTER SAYS IT'S WORKING.

WE FEEL WE HAVE REACHED THAT POINT WHERE WE ALMOST COMPLETELY SUPPRESSED THE EPIDEMIC, AT LEAST THE FIRST STAGE, AND WE'LL GRADUALLY BEGIN TO RELAX.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE DODGED THE BULLET?

WE FEEL WE HAVE DODGED THE FIRST BULLET, VERY CLEARLY.

MASK.

YEAH.

PUTTING ON THIS PROTECTIVE GEAR BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO GO INTO THE ICU.

HOW ARE THESE PATIENTS DOING?

THIS DOCTOR LEADS THE WAY.

BETTER NOW.

Reporter: BETTER, GOOD?

YEAH.

YEAH.

LIFE FOR SOME STILL IN THE BALANCE.

BUT ICU HERE AT ONE-FIFTH CAPACITY THANKS, SHE SAYS, TO THE EARLY LOCKDOWN.

THIS HELPED YOU IN THE HOSPITALS?

YEAH.

Reporter: 150 DEATHS, AROUND 2,600 CONFIRMED INFECTIONS.

LESS THAN NEW YORK SOME DAYS.

AND NOT A SINGLE DOCTOR OR NURSE IN THIS ATHENS MAIN COVID-19 HOSPITAL INFECTED.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY INFECTION FROM THE STAFF OR DOCTOR, NO.

Reporter: THAT'S INCREDIBLE.

YEAH.

Reporter: THIS SEEMS TO BE, DARE I SAY, A VERY STRONG MESSAGE FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED KINGDOM WHOSE TRACK RECORDS AT THE MOMENT ON THIS PANDEMIC ARE PROBABLY SOME OF THE WORST IN TERMS OF DEATHS AND INFECTION RATES.

I THINK WE'VE DONE IT THE RIGHT WAY.

OF COURSE, WE DIDN'T GET EVERYTHING COMPLETELY RIGHT BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH WHAT WE HAVE ACHIEVED.

Reporter: THE CHALLENGE NOW IS RESTARTING THE ECONOMY.

SELECTED STORES RE-OPENED MONDAY.

ANOTHER NEW NORMAL.

HAIR SALON OWNER, COSTANTINO, GREETS CUSTOMERS WITH A TEMPERATURE CHECK AND HAND SANITIZER.

RE-OPENING OF SEVEN WEEKS.

ONE OF THIRD CAPACITY BUT LONGER HOURS.

ECONOMICALLY WE ARE TAKING A HIT.

HOPEFULLY WITHIN TWO MONTHS WE CAN GO BACK TO NORM, BUT NORM WON'T BE WHAT IT WAS.

♪♪♪

Reporter: IT COULD BE A LONG JOURNEY.

TOURISM, 20% OF THE COUNTRY'S ECONOMY, TENTATIVELY TARGETED TO BEGIN JULY.

AND THAT'S WHERE THINGS COULD GET TOUGH.

IMAGINE THESE BEACHES TEEMING WITH TOURISTS AGAIN.

FRIEND AND POTENTIAL ENEMY INVISIBLY INTERTWINED.

A BLADE THAT CUTS BOTH WAYS.

ECONOMIC SALVATION OR A SECOND WAVE OF COVID-19 SUFFERING.

IDEALLY, WE WANT TO HAVE MORE HIGH-END TOURISTS AND WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY RESPECT SOCIAL DISTANCING.

WE HAVE IT BUT IT'S A RISK.

IT'S A VERY TOUGH TRADEOFF.

I'LL BE VERY HONEST WITH YOU.

NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY HOW TO DO THIS.

Reporter: REMEMBER OUR COVID-19 TEST AT THE AIRPORT?

WELL, THE KEY TO TOURISM SUCCESS THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS IS A NEW INTERNATIONAL STANDARD WHERE VISITORS ARE TESTED AT HOME BEFORE THEY ARRIVE.

> WELL, HERE THE UNITED KINGDOM HAS NOT BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL.

THE DEATH TOLL IS NOW THE HIGHEST IN EUROPE.

THIS IS A SHOCKING FACT.

MY NEXT GUEST, DR. DAVID NOTT, IS AN NHS SURGEON AND HE'S A WAR DOCTOR.

HE SPENT 25 YEARS VOLUNTEERING IN SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS CONFLICT ZONES.

NOW HE'S ON THE FRONT LINES HERE IN LONDON FIGHTING CORONAVIRUS.

WHICH HE SAYS IS EVEN WORSE THAN OPERATING IN SYRIA.

DAVID NOTT JOINS US FROM HIS CLINIC IN CENTRAL LONDON.

DR. NOTT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU THE EXTRAORDINARY COMMENT AND OBSERVATION THAT YOU MADE THAT FIGHTING CORONAVIRUS RIGHT HERE IN LONDON IN THE FIRST WORLD, IN A MAJOR METROPOLITAN CITY, IS WORSE THAN WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED DOING SURGERY IN SYRIA?

TELL ME HOW.

WELL, I THINK THAT WHEN YOU ARE A WAR SURGEON AND YOU'RE WORKING IN SYRIA AND YOU'RE WORKING IN A HOSPITAL, YOU KNOW WHO YOUR ENEMY IS, REALLY.

YOU KNOW YOU'RE GETTING INFORMATION ABOUT THE FRONT LINES.

YOU KNOW WHAT ATTACKS ARE HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW WHAT PATIENTS ARE GOING TO COME IN.

HERE WHAT I FELT WAS WE HAD AN INVISIBLE ENEMY, REALLY, WHICH COULD STRIKE ANY OF US AT ANY TIME.

AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU WERE GOING TO GET STRUCK BY IT OR NOT.

AND SO EVERYBODY, I THINK, THAT WAS WORKING IN THAT -- THAT IS WORKING IN THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE HERE, TAKES A CONSIDERABLE RISK REALLY WHICH IS, OF COURSE, REDUCED BY THE AMOUNT OF PPE THAT WE WEAR AND SO ON BUT EVEN STILL, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIED AND THE AMOUNT OF RISK THAT I THINK THAT WE TAKE, THAT'S WHY I SAID IT WAS SOMETIMES I FELT IT WAS SLIGHTLY MORE DANGEROUS WORKING IN THIS ENVIRONMENT THAN IT WAS WORKING IN SYRIA.

BUT, OF COURSE, THE -- THE -- GO ON.

SORRY.

SORRY, NO.

IT'S OKAY.

I WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY, BUT I WAS INTERESTED TO HEAR YOU MENTION PPE BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS SO MANY OF YOU DOCTORS AND MANY OF THE NURSES WHO WE'VE HEARD FROM AND OTHERS ON THE MEDICAL FRONT LINES HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT THIS IS THEIR BIGGEST FEAR AND THEIR BIGGEST WORRY, THAT THERE THEY ARE WILLING TO GO TO WORK, PUT THEMSELVES ON THE LINE TO DO THEIR AND PERFORM THEIR HIPPOCRATIC OATH AND DO THEIR JOB AND SAVE LIVES, YET THEY FEEL ACTUALLY THEY HAVEN'T GOT ALL THE PPE THEY NEED AND THEY'RE HAVING TO SHARE AND THEY'RE HAVING TO, YOU KNOW, RECYCLE AND REWASH AND REUSE THE SAME EQUIPMENT.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, HOW THAT STRIKES YOU.

WELL, I HAVE HEARD THAT.

BUT WHERE I WORK IN LONDON, I WORK IN A VERY MAJOR TEACHING HOSPITAL HERE IN CENTRAL LONDON, I HAVE NOT ACTUALLY FOUND THAT.

I HAVE FOUND THAT I HAVE THE RIGHT FFP-3 MASKS, THE RIGHT VISORS, THE GOGGLES IF I WANT THEM AND THE HATS AND THE SCREENS AND THE DOUBLE GLOVES AND THE NONPERMEABLE GOWNS.

I DON'T -- I'VE NEVER ACTUALLY COME TO A PROBLEM AND, IN FACT, THE WAY THAT WE RUN IT HERE, CERTAINLY AT OUR HOSPITAL, IS WE HAVE SOMEBODY WHO HELPS US PUT THE PPE ON.

EVERYBODY'S LIKE A FAMILY TEAM REALLY.

WE LOOK AFTER EACH OTHER SO SIGNIFICANTLY THAT I ACTUALLY HAVEN'T FOUND THAT WHERE I'VE BEEN WORKING.

SO I THINK IN ONE RESPECT I HAVE HEARD IT ACROSS THE BOARD FROM VARIOUS HOSPITALS BUT CERTAINLY I DO NOT HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE.

WELL, I'M REALLY GLAD TO SAY OR HEAR THAT YOU HAVEN'T HAD THAT EXPERIENCE.

CAN I ACTUALLY ASK YOU JUST TO GO BACK TO THE WAR ZONE AGAIN AND TELL ME WHAT IS THE RISK THERE TO, FOR INSTANCE, IN SYRIA?

WE ARE HEARING THERE'S A REAL RISK IN SOME OF THE AREAS, SOME OF THE AREAS STILL HELD BY THE OPPOSITION TO BASHAR AL ASSAD THAT CORONAVIRUS, COVID, HAS STARTED TO SHOW UP THERE.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING AND WHAT CAN ONE EXPECT IF IT TAKES HOLD THERE IN THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT?

WELL, YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, ABOUT 2 MILLION PEOPLE ON THE BORDER IN REFUGEE CAMPS AND NOT ONLY THAT, YOU'VE GOT 3 MILLION, 4 MILLION PEOPLE, WITHIN THE NORTHEAST OF SYRIA AND I WAS SPEAKING TO ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES ABOUT TWO HOURS AGO JUST TO GET AN UPDATE OF WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE.

AND, I MEAN, THEY ARE EXTREMELY SCARED OF THE CORONAVIRUS HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE -- THEY'VE HAD SOME TESTS.

THEY'VE GOT ABOUT 40 OR 50 TESTS PER 3 MILLION PEOPLE SO FAR.

ONE PERSON HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED AS HAVING CORONAVIRUS.

AND THAT TEST TOOK TWO WEEKS TO COME BACK AND BY THE TIME THE TEST WAS BACK, THE PATIENT HAD, UNFORTUNATELY, DIED.

SO IT IS, IN FACT, NOW IN NORTHERN SYRIA.

THE BIG PROBLEM, OF COURSE, IS THAT IT'S BEEN ABANDONED BY THE WORLD, REALLY, AND NOT ONLY THAT, I UNDERSTAND -- I THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A CEASE-FIRE BUT I'VE HEARD OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS NOW THAT THE WAR HAS STARTED AGAIN IN SOUTHERN IDLIB AND BOMBING HAS STARTED AGAIN TO MAKE THE SITUATION MORE INTOLERABLE FOR THOSE PEOPLE.

SO, IN FACT, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE IN A VERY -- IF YOU CAN GO -- NOBODY CAN GET THE PPE IN TO HELP THEM OR NOBODY CAN -- HAS AN IDEA, REALLY.

THERE'S NO GREAT LEADERSHIP GOING ON AROUND THE WORLD TO HELP THESE PEOPLE.

IN MANY PLACES LIKE REFUGEE CAMPS AROUND THE WORLD OR OTHER CONFLICT ZONES.

THESE PEOPLE ARE REALLY, REALLY STRUGGLING, I THINK, AND WILL STRUGGLE VERY HARD IF THE CORONAVIRUS HITS BECAUSE AS IT HITS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, MY FEELING IS THAT TREATMENT REALLY IS NOT AN OPTION IN THESE PLACES BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF VENTILATORS THAT YOU NEED, THE RESULTS THAT YOU HAVE ON VENTILATION, ARE NOT THAT GOOD, THE AMOUNT OF OXYGEN THAT'S REQUIRED IN THESE PLACES, AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE PIPED OXYGEN.

WE JUST HAVE SOME OXYGEN CONCENTRATORS.

THEY DON'T WORK ON VENTILATORS.

I THINK THAT TREATMENT IS NOT AN OPTION.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ONE CAN DO IN ALL THESE AREAS, REFUGEE CAMPS AROUND THE WORLD OR CONFLICT ZONES OR FRAGILE STATES REALLY IS PREVENTION.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS PREVENT THIS VIRUS FROM REALLY HITTING THEM HARD AND THAT I THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT ANYBODY CAN DO AND SO THAT'S WHAT I ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION IN ALL THESE VERY FRAGILE COUNTRIES.

BUT I WONDER HOW ONE PREVENTS IT.

I MEAN, LOOK.

THE U.N. SAYS THERE'S SOME 30 MILLION REFUGEES IN CAMPS AROUND THE WORLD.

CROWDED INTO THESE CONDITIONS YOU'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

YOU MENTIONED THAT THE CALL FOR A GLOBAL CEASE-FIRE BY THE SECRETARY GENERAL HAS NOT BEEN HONORED.

CERTAINLY, WE KNOW IN LIBYA, YOU JUST MENTIONED IN SYRIA.

WE ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE ASSAD REGIME PREVENTED TESTING GETTING THROUGH TO, DELIBERATELY, GETTING THROUGH TO ANY OF THE OPPOSITION-HELD AREAS.

SO I JUST WANT YOU TO TELL US BECAUSE THROUGHOUT THESE YEARS, WHETHER IT'S YEMEN OR LIBYA OR SYRIA AND ELSEWHERE, ACTUAL HOSPITALS AND HEALTH FACILITIES HAVE BEEN TARGETED.

THAT HAS BEEN TARGETED BY WHETHER IT'S RUSSIAN OR SAUDI OR WHOEVER IT IS, INCLUDING THE ACTORS ON THE GROUND, JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU WERE THERE IN THAT REGARD.

YEAH.

I MEAN, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT HOSPITALS, HEALTH CARE WORKERS, AMBULANCES, HAVE ALL BEEN DIRECTLY TARGETED BY THE WARRING FACTIONS.

I MEAN, THE AGE OF IMMUNITY, AS DAVID MILLIBAND HAD SAID, IS THERE.

PEOPLE CAN DO THINGS, WHAT THEY WANT.

NOBODY HOLDS ANYBODY TO ACCOUNT.

AND THAT IS THE BIG ISSUE THAT'S GOING ON AT THE MOMENT.

I MEAN, I THINK 50 HOSPITALS IN 2019 GOING INTO 2020 HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY TARGETED BY THE RUSSIAN AND SYRIAN REGIMES AND BLOWN UP.

AND THERE IS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS HAPPENING AND, OF COURSE, THAT THEN LEAVES YOU WITH A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF HEALTH CARE TO PROVIDE FOR MILLIONS AN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SO I'VE ALWAYS TRIED TO FLY THE FLAG CONSTANTLY FOR THESE PEOPLE AND TRY TO SAY, WELL, LET'S GET A HUMANITARIAN NEGOTIATING TEAM TO GO IN AND TRY AND DISCUSS WITH THE WARRING FACTIONS TO SAY, LOOK, MOST OF THE PATIENTS THAT ARE BEING TARGETED ARE, IN FACT, CIVILIANS.

THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING PEOPLE.

IT'S JUST CIVILIANS.

90% OF ALL THE INJURIES I SAW IN SYRIA DURING THE WAR AND DURING NOW IS ALL TO DO WITH CIVILIANS AND YOU GOT THE PROBLEM NOW OF CORONAVIRUS WITH CIVILIANS, AGAIN.

SO THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMEBODY, THERE NEEDS TO BE A STRONG LEADER IN THIS WORLD THAT REALLY PUTS HIS, YOU KNOW, PUTS HIS MARK DOWN AND SAYS, LOOK, PRESIDENT ASSAD, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

AND YOU NEED PROTECT YOUR OWN CIVILIANS AND ALL THE WARRING PARTIES IN LIBYA, IN YEMEN, SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE STRONG AND SAY, WE NEED A PROPER WORLD LEADER, REALLY, THAT WILL CONTAIN THIS BUT WE DON'T HAVE ONE, UNFORTUNATELY.

AND I EVEN JUST RECEIVED JUST BEFORE GOING ON THE AIR A SORT OF A DESPERATE EMAIL FROM SOMALIA, IN MANY OF THESE AREAS, I WANT TO SAY BROKEN, FAILED STATES, BUT CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, REALLY FRAGILE STATES.

THERE'S A REAL FEAR ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE MENTAL TOLL THAT IT TAKES ON SOMEBODY IN A WAR ZONE.

YOU, YOURSELF, HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE MENTAL TOLL OF GOING TO SYRIA AND TO YEMEN AND TO SO MANY OF THESE PLACES FOR SO LONG UNDER WAR AND THE PTSD YOU SUFFERED.

TALK ABOUT THAT AND WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, IF AT ALL, WE'VE HEARD STORIES OF SO MANY FRONT LINE WORKERS WHETHER HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, ELSEWHERE, MEDICAL WORKERS REALLY HAVING A HARD TIME WITH THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF THIS CALAMITY THAT THEY'RE HAVING TO COPE WITH THE BEST THEY CAN.

YES.

I MEAN, IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY HIT YOU WHEN YOU'RE DOING IT AND YOU KNOW THIS, TOO, I'M SURE.

WHEN IT HITS YOU IS WHEN YOU'RE HOME IN THE EVENINGS AND WHEN YOU'VE DONE A VERY LONG DAY AT WORK AND, OF COURSE, THE PROBLEM IS HERE WITH THE CORONAVIRUS, IT'S SO VIRULENT, SO DEADLY THAT, OF COURSE, YOU CAN'T -- WHEN PEOPLE ARE DYING WITH THIS VIRUS, YOU CAN'T TALK -- THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS CAN'T COME IN.

OFTEN WE SPEND A LONG TIME TALKING TO FAMILY MEMBERS ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONES, ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO, YOU KNOW, THE DEATH, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT WILL ENSUE.

WE SPEND A LONG TIME TALKING TO PEOPLE AND TRYING TO GET THEM THROUGH THIS.

HERE, YOU HAVEN'T GOT THAT.

YOU HAVE A TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH SOMEBODY THAT LASTS FOR A FEW MINUTES AND THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF STRESS INVOLVED ON BOTH PARTIES.

THE STRESS INVOLVED OF A DOCTOR TRYING TO BE SYMPATHETIC TO THE FAMILY TAKES A HUGE TOLL AND I THINK THAT EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW, THAT DOCTORS AND NURSES AROUND THE WORLD ARE STRUGGLING WITH GETTING THEIR -- COPING WITH THEIR OWN STRESS AND THE BIG PROBLEM IS WHEN THEY GO HOME, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES A LOT OF US LIVE ON OUR OWN NOW BECAUSE WE SENT OUR FAMILIES AWAY BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO INFECT THEM, SO WE FEEL ALMOST QUITE ALONE IN THE SITUATION AND SOME DAYS I DON'T SPEAK TO ANYBODY.

I HAVE A MASK ON MY FACE WHICH I HAVOLOGY ON, WHEN I'M OPERATING, I CAN'T HEAR ANYBODY WHEN I'M OPERATING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SPEAK UNDER THIS MASK.

IT HURTS YOUR NOSE AND FACE.

AND IT'S VERY, VERY STRESSFUL.

AND I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT'S NOT THE PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT, IT'S GOING TO BE THREE OR FOUR MONTHS DOWN THE LINE WHEN SUDDENLY PEOPLE WILL BECOME EXTREMELY DEPRESSED AS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO ME SOMETIMES WHEN I COME BACK FROM A WAR ZONE.

I'M ELATED WHEN I COME BACK BECAUSE I'VE SURVIVED BUT THEN IT HITS ME TEN DAYS, TWO WEEKS, A MONTH LATER, OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AND WHAT YOU REALLY, REALLY SAW STARTS TO AFFECT YOU.

YOU SORT TO DEVELOP POST TRAUMATIC STRESS.

YOU START SEEING THINGS.

YOU CAN'T SLEEP.

I'M SURE THERE'S GOING TO BE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF POST TRAUMATIC STRESS NOT ONLY FOR DOCTORS AND NURSES AND ALL THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS, THE PHYSIOTHERAPISTS AND SO ON, BUT ALSO FOR THE FAMILIES INVOLVED IN ALL THIS AT THE END OF THE DAY.

THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF MENTAL HEALTH CARE REQUIRED I THINK AT THE END OF THIS.

WELL, I JUST WANT TO SORT OF EMPHASIZE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, EVERYBODY WAS QUITE TOUCHED AND TAKEN BY THE AMERICAN DOCTOR WHO COMMITTED SUICIDE AND YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED TO SORT OF MAKE A VIDEO PSA, IF YOU LIKE, AN APPEAL TO HELP NHS WORKERS HERE ABOUT THE MENTAL TRAUMA.

LET'S JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF IT.

WHEN I GO TO WAR ZONE OR A CATASTROPHE AREA AND I HAVE TO PUT A DIFFERENT HEAD ON MY SHOULDERS, ONE THAT ALLOWS ME TO THINK IN A DIFFERENT WAY, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO WHAT YOUR NORMAL NHS LIFE WAS LIKE AND SOME OF THE DECISIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE WILL ALSO BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

SO THE DECISIONS, WE'VE HEARD THE TERRIBLE SORT OF TRIAGING DECISIONS PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE, WHO'S GOING TO GET A VENTILATOR, WHO'S NOT.

JUST BEEN SLAMMED BY SO MANY PATIENTS.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ENOUGH CARE FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND THE OTHERS WITH YOU WHO ARE ON THE FRONT LINES?

THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK THAT NOBODY HAS BEEN THROUGH A MASS CASUALTY EVENT LIKE WHAT WE'VE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK THE SECOND WORLD WAR WAS THE LAST TIME WE FACED ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THIS IS THE WORST PANDEMIC EVER IN ANYBODY'S LIFETIME OVER 100 YEARS AND WE'RE ALL FACING IT.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE LEARNING ALL THE TIME.

WE'RE LEARNING ABOUT HOW TO COPE WITH THIS PANDEMIC.

AND I THINK AT THE MOMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY THERE WILL BE A LOT OF LEARNING THAT WILL COME ABOUT.

I THINK THAT CERTAINLY FROM THE NHS POINT OF VIEW, FROM THE UK POINT OF VIEW, WE HAVE A LOT OF BACKUP SUPPORT.

WE HAVE INCREDIBLE PSYCHIATRISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS AND HEALTH CARE TEAMS AND MENTAL HEALTH CARE TEAMS THAT WILL HELP US.

I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

BUT THERE WILL BE A LOT REQUIRED.

OKAY.

WELL, DR. NOTT, THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH FOR YOUR UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE AND, OF COURSE, WE WISH THE DOCTOR THE BEST OF LUCK AS HE CONTINUES HIS LIFE-SAVING WORK ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS CRISIS.

AND WHEN HE GOES BACK TO THE WAR ZONE.

> AND NOW AS THE U.S. TREASURY BEGINS BAILING OUT BUSINESSES ACROSS AMERICA, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHICH COMPANIES ARE GETTING THAT MONEY AND HOW IT'S BEING SPENT.

BHARAT RAMAPORTA WAS THE FIRST PERSON NAMED TO THE CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT COMMISSION.

TASKED WITH POLICING CORONAVIRUS CORPORATE RELIEF LOANS.

HE JOINED CONTRIBUTOR SHEILA KOHARTA TO DISCUSS HIS NEW ROLE.

BHARAT RAMAPORTA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

30 MILLION AMERICANS HAVE FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT PROTECTION IN THE LAST SIX WEEKS.

THAT'S 18% OF THE U.S. LABOR FORCE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME IN THE MONTH OF APRIL THE STOCK MARKET WENT UP 13%. ITS HIGHEST MONTHLY PERFORMANCE SINCE 1987.

WHAT DOES THIS SAY TO YOU?

IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE KINDS OF SAFETY NETS THAT WE HAVE IN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

SO THE PROGRAM THAT I AND THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERSEEING IS A PROGRAM THAT OPERATES THROUGH THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT AND THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND IT USES ABOUT $500 BILLION OF TAXPAYER MONEY TO SUPPORT WHAT COULD BE UP TO $5 TRILLION IN LENDING TO BIG AND MEDIUM-SIZED CORPORATIONS THROUGH THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

AND SO, THE FACT THAT CONGRESS CAN OPERATE THROUGH THE FEDERAL RESERVE LIKE THAT CREATES AN INCREDIBLE SAFETY NET OF MEDIUM-SIZED AND BIG CORPORATIONS AND THE RESULT OF THAT IS THAT YOU HAVE THIS TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT IS BEING FUNNELED INTO THE HANDS OF CORPORATE EXECUTIVES AND CORPORATE BOARDS AND BASICALLY SAYING TO THEM, YOU DECIDE HOW BEST TO USE THIS MONEY AND IF YOU LOOK BACK HISTORICALLY AT THE TYPES OF DECISIONS THAT CORPORATE EXECUTIVES AND CORPORATE BOARDS HAVE MADE OVER THE LAST 10 OR 20 YEARS, THEY TEND TO FAVOR CORPORATE EXECUTIVES AND CORPORATE SHAREHOLDERS.

SO I THINK IT'S NO SURPRISE THAT THE FED IS PROMISING TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXPAYER SUBSIDIZED LENDING INTO THE HANDS OF CORPORATE EXECUTIVES AND CORPORATE BOARDS THAT THE REACTION OF THE STOCK MARKET IS VERY POSITIVE.

YOU COULD BASICALLY SEE A LARGE COMPANY TAKING THIS TAXPAYER BACKSTOPPED LOAN FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE, LAYING OFF OR FURLOUGHING WORKERS, TELLING THEM TO GO FILE FOR UNEMPLOYMENT.

ALSO SUBSIDIZED BY THE TAXPAYER.

THEN USING THIS LOAN MONEY TO PAY VERY LARGE EXECUTIVE SALARIES TO BUY BACK ITS OWN STOCK.

SO WHAT IS YOUR ROLE IN TERMS OF MAKING SURE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN?

THE COMMISSION THAT I'M PART OF IS A FIVE-MEMBER COMMISSION AND WHAT MAKES IT UNIQUE IS ALL FIVE MEMBERS ARE APPOINTED BY CONGRESS.

WE ARE THE ONLY OVERSIGHT BODY IN THE LEGISLATION THAT CONGRESS RECENTLY PASSED TO RESPOND TO THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS THAT IS FREE FROM INTERFERENCE IN TAMPERING BY THE PRESIDENT AND BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

AS A RESULT OF THAT, I THINK WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PERFORM VERY ROBUST BIPARTISAN OVERSIGHT OF HOW THIS MONEY IS BEING USED.

THE OTHER UNIQUE THING ABOUT THIS COMMISSION IS THAT OUR STATUTORY GOAL IS TO EXAMINE HOW IS THIS PROGRAM AFFECTING THE FINANCIAL WELLBEING OF AMERICAN FAMILIES?

IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S NOT JUST TO LOOK FOR WASTE, FRAUD, AND ABUSE, WHICH IS KIND OF OVERSIGHT YOU SEE FROM OTHER OVERSIGHT BODIES.

WE HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC MISSION WHICH IS TO ASK THE BROADER QUESTION, HOW ARE THE DECISIONS THAT THE TREASURY AND THE FED ARE MAKING ACTUALLY AFFECTING THE WELLBEING OF AMERICAN FAMILIES?

THE 30 MILLION WORKERS THAT HAVE BEEN LAID OFF.

THE FAMILIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING WITH REDUCED HOURS OR REDUCED PAY.

FAMILIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING TO BALANCE CHILDCARE WHILE -- AND THE LACK OF SCHOOL WHILE TRYING TO MAINTAIN EMPLOYMENT.

THOSE ARE THE FAMILIES THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSED ON AND THAT'S THE KIND OF OVERSIGHT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

CLEARLY, THIS OVERSIGHT IS IMPORTANT DURING A CRISIS LIKE THIS, YET WE'VE HAD MANY INDICATIONS FROM THE PRESIDENT THAT HE IS NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN HAVING HIS ACTIONS AT THIS MOMENT BEING CLOSELY MONITORED.

HE'S ALREADY FIRED ONE OF THE INSPECTORS GENERAL.

HE'S APPOINTED A WHITE HOUSE LAWYER TO FILL ANOTHER CRUCIAL ROLE.

AND HE RECENTLY SAID WHEN ASKED ABOUT THIS, I'LL BE THE OVERSIGHT.

WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT COMMENT?

WELL, I THINK THAT ANY TIME YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LITERALLY TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXPAYER MONEY GOING OUT THE DOOR IN RELATIVELY SHORT ORDER, IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A VARIETY OF ROBUST DIFFERENT OVERSIGHT MECHANISMS FOR THAT.

AND AS I SAID BEFORE, THE KEY TO OUR OVERSIGHT COMMISSION IS THAT IT'S INDEPENDENT.

IT IS FREE FROM TAMPERING BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

AND THE CONCERN IS WITH THIS MUCH MONEY GOING OUT THE DOORKS DOOR, IS IT BEING USED TO HELP THE PUBLIC INTEREST OR BEING USED FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

ARE POLITICALLY CONNECTED COMPANIES OR INDUSTRIES GETTING MORE GENEROUS SUPPORT THAN OTHER INDUSTRIES OR OTHER TYPES OF COMPANIES?

THAT'S THE KIND OF CORRUPTION THAT CAN UNDERMINE SUPPORT, BROAD, PUBLIC SUPPORT OF THESE TYPE OF ECONOMIC RECOVERY PROGRAMS AND WHY I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE BROAD BIPARTISAN SUPPORT WHETHER A REPUBLICAN, DEMOCRAT, OR INDEPENDENT.

YOU SHOULD WANT ROBUST OVERSIGHT OF THIS MONEY BECAUSE WE NEED TO SUPPORT A BROAD-BASED ECONOMIC RECOVERY FROM THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS.

WE ARE LOOKING AT 20% UNEMPLOYMENT.

THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE IS PROJECTING THAT UNEMPLOYMENT AS THINGS STAND WILL BE 10% EVEN AT THE END OF NEXT YEAR.

AND SO IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE MONEY THAT WE HAVE ALREADY ALLOCATED BE PUT TO BEST USE AND THAT'S THE ROLE OF THIS OVERSIGHT COMMISSION.

YOUR COMMISSION DOESN'T HAVE SUBPOENA POWER.

WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL RAMIFICATIONS IF A COMPANY MISUSES THIS TAXPAYER MONEY?

I THINK STEP ONE IS MAKING SURE THAT WE KNOW THE IDENTITY OF THE COMPANIES THAT ARE GETTING THE MONEY.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, AS OF A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, THE FEDERAL RESERVE HAD NOT COMMITTED TO DISCLOSING THE NAMES OF THE COMPANIES THAT WERE GETTING TAXPAYER-BACKED LOANS THROUGH THE FED OR THE TERMS ON WHICH THEY WERE GETTING THAT SUPPORT.

I PUSHED FOR ROBUST DISCLOSURE OF THAT INFORMATION AND THANKFULLY THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED A FEW DAYS AGO THAT THEY WOULD PUBLISH THE NAMES OF THE COMPANIES THAT ARE GETTING SUPPORT EVERY 30 DAYS.

THAT'S STEP ONE IS KNOWING THE IDENTITY OF THESE COMPANIES.

STEP TWO AS YOU SAID IS WHAT DO THESE COMPANIES DO AFTER THEY GET TAXPAYER-BACKED SUPPORT?

THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF STAFF WORK AND A LOT OF OVERSIGHT TO MONITOR WHAT COULD END UP BEING THOUSANDS OF COMPANIES WHO ARE GETTING TAXPAYER-BACKED SUPPORT THROUGH THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

AND THE CRITICAL QUESTION IS GOING TO BE, ARE THESE COMPANIES USING THE MONEY TO RETAIN THEIR WORKFORCE OR REHIRE WORKERS, OR ARE THEY GOING TO USE THAT MONEY TO PROVIDE EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION AND SHAREHOLDER BONUSES -- SHAREHOLDER BUYBACKS AND DIVIDENDS?

THAT IS GOING TO BE A CRITICAL FACTOR IN WHETHER THIS MONEY IS USED ULTIMATELY TO BENEFIT THE FINANCIAL WELLBEING OF AMERICAN FAMILIES OR WHETHER INSTEAD IT'S USED TO SUPPORT A NARROW SLICE OF THE WEALTHIEST FAMILIES.

IT SOUNDS, THOUGH, LIKE PUBLIC SHAMING IS THE MAIN TOOL AVAILABLE TO THE COMMISSION IN TERMS OF ENCOURAGING APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR ON BEHALF OF THESE COMPANIES.

THAT IS ONE TOOL, TO BE TOTALLY HONEST, AND THERE ARE A FEW OTHERS.

THE OTHER THING IS WE CAN WORK IN COOPERATION WITH OTHER OVERSIGHT BODIES THAT DO HAVE SUBPOENA POWER.

WE CAN WORK WITH STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL.

WE CAN WORK WITH FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES IF THERE IS A CASE FOR A CIVIL OR CRIMINAL COMPLAINT BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT COMPANIES ARE USING THIS MONEY.

ANOTHER CRITICAL OVERSIGHT ISSUE IS THAT CONGRESS SAID SPECIFICALLY IN THE BILL THAT THIS MONEY COULD NOT BE USED TO SUPPORT FOREIGN COMPANIES AND IT COULD NOT BE USED TO SUPPORT COMPANIES THAT ARE OWNED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, MEMBERS OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, OR THEIR FAMILIES.

SO THERE MAY BE POTENTIAL VIOLATIONS OF THOSE RULES AS WELL THAT WE'LL HAVE TO CAREFULLY MONITOR.

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'LL NEED AN INVESTIGATIVE TEAM TO DO THAT.

PROBING INTO HOW THE COMPANIES ARE SPENDING THE MONEY.

WHAT KIND OF STAFF DO YOU HAVE?

WHAT RESOURCES DO YOU HAVE AVAILABLE TO DO THIS?

WELL, AT THE MOMENT WE HAVE ONLY FOUR OUT OF THE FIVE MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION IN PLACE.

WE'RE STILL MISSING THE CHAIR OF THE COMMISSION.

ONCE THE CHAIR IS NAMED BY CONGRESS, I THINK WE CAN GET TO WORK HIRING STAFF.

THIS WAS MODELED AFTER THE 2008 OVERSIGHT COMMISSION THAT THEN-PROFESSOR ELIZABETH WARREN CHAIRED.

THAT COMMISSION HAD DOZENS OF STAFF MEMBERS, AS YOU SAID, DIGGING INTO THE DETAILS OF WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT AT THAT TIME.

I HOPE AND ASSUME THAT WE'LL HAVE SIMILAR LEVEL OF STAFFING FOR THIS COMMISSION BUT WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET BECAUSE WE'RE STILL LACKING A CHAIR FOR THE COMMISSION.

THE COMMISSION YOU'RE SERVING ON IS BIPARTISAN.

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL SO FAR IN REQUESTING THAT SOME CONDITIONS BE PUT ON SOME OF THIS FED-ADMINISTERED MONEY SUCH AS RESTRICTIONS ON STOCK BUYBACKS AND EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION, BUT ALREADY ONE OF YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS, PAT TOOMEY, THE REPUBLICAN SENATOR, HAS SAID, WELL, THIS IS NOT OUR JOB TO IMPOSE THESE CONDITIONS, THE FED'S RULE IS TO COMPLY WITH THE STATUTE.

IF CONGRESS HAD WANTED THOSE RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE STATUTE.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS?

RESPECTFULLY TO MY COLLEAGUE, THERE'S A LOT OF DISCRETION IN THE LAW AND ALMOST EVERY DAY THE TREASURY AND THE FED ARE MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT HOW TO USE THIS MONEY THAT GO BEYOND THE EXACT RESTRICTIONS AND DIRECTION THAT CONGRESS GAVE THEM IN THE LAW.

JUST THE OTHER DAY THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED A SERIES OF CHANGES TO WHAT IT CALLS ITS MAIN STREET LENDING FACILITY, AND THOSE CHANGES TO THE SIZE OF THE LOAN, MAXIMUM LOAN AMOUNT, TO THE TYPES OF COMPANIES THAT ARE ELIGIBLE TO GET THAT MONEY, TO WHAT COMPANIES CAN DO WITH THE MONEY, ALL OF THOSE CHANGES THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED WEREN'T SPECIFICALLY SPELLED OUT IN THE LAW.

SO PART OF WHAT THE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION IS GOING TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT WHERE THERE ARE SPECIFIC RULES IN THE LAW THAT THOSE RULES ARE BEING FOLLOWED.

BUT ANOTHER PART OF THE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION HAS TO DO IS WHERE THE TREASURY AND THE FED HAVE BROAD DISCRETION TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THE MONEY, WE HAVE TO ASK THE TREASURY AND THE FED, WHY ARE YOU MAKING THOSE DECISIONS AND WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE IMPACT OF THOSE DECISIONS ON THE FINANCIAL WELLBEING OF AMERICAN FAMILIES?

THAT'S WHY I'M FOCUSED ON THE QUESTION OF WHAT COMPANIES DO WITH THE MONEY WE'RE GIVING TO THEM.

YOU RECENTLY EXPRESSED SOME CONCERNS ABOUT CHANGES THAT HAD BEEN MADE THAT SEEM TO BENEFIT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THOSE A LITTLE BIT?

SURE.

SO THE PURPOSE OF THIS MONEY IS TO HELP COMPANIES AND WORKERS WHO HAVE BEEN PUT IN A TOUGH POSITION BECAUSE OF THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS AND ITS IMPACT ON THE ECONOMY.

WHAT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IS BAIL OUT COMPANIES THAT WERE ALREADY IN ROUGH SHAPE BEFORE CORONAVIRUS.

AND IN MANY CASES, THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY WAS IN VERY ROUGH SHAPE, WAS ALREADY DEEPLY INDEBTED BEFORE THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS HIT.

AND THE CONCERN I HAVE IS THAT CERTAIN CHANGES THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED THE OTHER DAY WHILE SEEMINGLY TECHNICAL LINED UP ALMOST EXACTLY WITH THE EXACT REQUESTS THAT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY HAD BEEN MAKING TO THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND IN THAT SENSE WE COULD END UP SEEING TAXPAYER-BACKED LOANS TO OIL AND GAS COMPANIES TO HELP THEM OUT OF A CRISIS THAT PREDATED THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS.

AND AGAIN, THE QUESTION THAT THAT RAISES IS IS THAT A GOOD USE OF THE TAXPAYER MONEY?

IS THAT CONSISTENT WITH THE INTENTION OF THIS MONEY AS CONGRESS LAID OUT IN THE LAW?

WE DON'T WANT THOSE COMPANIES TO COLLAPSE.

I MEAN, THEY DO EMPLOY A LOT OF PEOPLE.

CERTAINLY THEIR ARGUMENT WOULD BE WE WANT TO SURVIVE THE CRISIS SO WE CAN RETAIN OUR WORKFORCE.

YEP.

AGAIN, THE KEY PROBLEM THERE IS EVEN IF YOU THINK THAT THE ROLE OF THIS MONEY IS TO HELP CORPORATIONS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE IN GOOD SHAPE OR BAD SHAPE BEFORE THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS, I AGREE, OBVIOUSLY, ALL OF THESE COMPANIES EMPLOY WORKERS AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE PROVIDE AID TO WORKERS.

THE ISSUE IS THAT DESPITE ALL THE CHANGES THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED THE OTHER DAY TO MAKE THIS MONEY MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, ONE CHANGE THEY DIDN'T MAKE IS TO ADD ANY REQUIREMENT THAT COMPANIES THAT RECEIVE THIS MONEY RETAIN WORKERS ON PAYROLL OR EVEN MAKE AN EFFORT TO REHIRE WORKERS THAT THEY MAY HAVE ALREADY LAID OFF.

AND SO I HAVE DEEP SYMPATHY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THAT INDUSTRY.

IF WE'RE GOING TO PROVIDE MONEY TO THOSE COMPANIES, I AGREE, IT SHOULD GO TO HELP THE WORKERS.

MY CONCERN IS WE SEEM TO BE HELPING CORPORATIONS AND THEIR CREDITORS WHICH IN MANY CASES IS THEIR BANK RATHER THAN THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY EMPLOYED BY THOSE COMPANIES.

I REMEMBER WHEN THE C.A.R.E.S. ACT PASSED, DEMOCRATS IN PARTICULAR MADE A BIG DEAL HOW THEY WERE GOING TO IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS ON HOW COMPANIES SPEND THE MONEY AND WEREN'T GOING TO LET CORPORATIONS USE STIMULUS MONEY TO BUY BACK THEIR OWN SHARES OR PAY ENORMOUS EXECUTIVE BONUSES.

HOWEVER, AS TIME HAS GONE ON, WE'VE LEARNED THAT SOME OF THE FINE PRINT DOES ACTUALLY LEAVE A LOT OF WIGGLE ROOM.

WERE THEY MISREPRESENTING THE SITUATION WHEN THIS LEGISLATION PASSED BACK IN MARCH?

I THINK THE ISSUE IS THAT WHEN YOU'RE RESPONDING TO A CRISIS, IT MAKES SENSE TO GIVE THE AGENCIES THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ADMINISTERING THE MONEY SOME FLEXIBILITY IN DETERMINING HOW TO USE IT.

THE QUESTION, THOUGH, IS WHY ARE THE -- THOSE AGENCIES SUBSEQUENTLY MAKING THE DECISIONS THAT THEY'RE MAKING?

AND ARE THOSE DECISIONS INTENDED TO SUPPORT THE BROADER PUBLIC INTEREST OR ARE THEY INTENDED TO SUPPORT PARTICULAR INDUSTRIES OR PARTICULARLY WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS?

SO, NO, I THINK THAT THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT WHAT CONGRESS DID.

THE ISSUE IS WHAT ARE THE FED AND THE TREASURY DOING WITH THE AUTHORITY THAT CONGRESS RIGHTFULLY GAVE TO THEM?

AND THE TREASURY AND THE FED HAVE BROAD AUTHORITY TO MAKE CHANGES TO HOW THESE PROGRAMS OPERATE AND MY HOPE IS THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIVE TO THE CONCERNS THAT THE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION AND OTHER ADVOCATES AND EXPERTS ARE MAKING.

AND LET ME JUST GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THE FEDERAL RESERVE ANNOUNCED IT WAS GOING TO PROVIDE LENDING TO STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND INITIALLY THEY SAID THAT THAT PROGRAM WOULD ONLY BE AVAILABLE TO VERY, VERY LARGE CITIES AND COUNTIES AND THE RESULT WAS THAT THE 35 CITIES IN AMERICA WITH THE HIGHEST PROPORTION OF BLACK RESIDENTS WERE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THAT FED LENDING PROGRAM.

I RAISED SOME CONCERNS ABOUT IT.

SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT IT.

THE FEDERAL RESERVE WENT BACK AND REVISED THOSE TERMS SO MUCH SMALLER CITIES WOULD NOW BE ELIGIBLE INCLUDING CITIES LIKE ATLANTA AND DETROIT AND BALTIMORE THAT WEREN'T PREVIOUSLY ELIGIBLE FOR THAT LENDING.

SO IT SHOWS THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS WILLING TO BE RESPONSIVE TO SOME OF THE CRITICISMS AND SOME OF THE ATTEMPTS TO IMPROVE THE OPERATION OF ITS FACILITIES.

MY HOPE IS THEY WILL ALSO BE RESPONSIVE WHEN IT COMES TO SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ABOUT HOW THE MONEY FOR BIG BUSINESS IS BEING HANDED OUT.

BHARAT, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

> FINALLY, WE SPOKE EARLIER OF THE QUICK AND EFFECTIVE RESPONSE TAKEN BY GREEK GOVERNMENT.

OTHER SUCCESS STORIES ARE INSTRUCTIVE AS WELL.

HERE'S A LOOK AT THEM AND THEIR LEADERS.

TAIWAN AND HONG KONG ACTED EARLY AND FAST AND THEY'RE NOW RE-OPENING.

NEW ZEALAND WHICH ALSO LOCKED DOWN QUICKLY IS NOW THE FIRST COUNTRY TO CLAIM THAT IT HAS ELIMINATED THE VIRUS.

IN EUROPE, DENMARK, AND NORWAY ALSO QUICKLY LOCKED DOWN AND GUARANTEED WORKER SALARIES WHILE GERMANY AND ICELAND ADDED MASSIVE TESTING.

THIS IS SOUTH KOREA'S NEW HERO, THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER AND ARCHITECT OF THE NATION'S TEST, TRACE AND ISOLATE STRATEGY THAT'S BECOME THE ENVY OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

NONE OF THEM SAID SO WHAT AS THEIR NATION'S DEATH TOLL MOUNTED OR SOUGHT TO PLAY DOWN THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE VIRUS AND CALL IT A HOAX OR, INDEED, BOASTED ABOUT SHAKING HANDS WITH COVID-19 VICTIMS ON A HOSPITAL VISIT.

INSTEAD, EACH OF THESE LEADERS COMMUNICATED TOUGH STAY-AT-HOME, STAY-ALIVE MESSAGES COMBINED WITH EMPATHY, CALM, COMPETENCE, AND HARD WORK AND ALWAYS, ALWAYS, FAVORING SCIENCE OVER POLITICS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.