May 7, 2026

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THEY WANT TO MAKE A DEAL.

WE'VE HAD VERY GOOD TALKS OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS, AND IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT WE'LL MAKE A DEAL.

>> WHILE THE U. S. AND IRAN MOVE CLOSER TO AN AGREEMENT TO TRY TO END THE WAR, HOW ARE THE PEOPLE THERE COPING WITH DEATH AND DESTRUCTION?

I'M JOINED BY THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS PRESIDENT MIRJANA SPOLJARIC, WHO RECENTLY VISITED TEHRAN.

>> THEN, AS RUSSIA PREPARES TO CELEBRATE VICTORY DAY, ITS WAR ON UKRAINE CONTINUES.

REGIONAL EXPERT ALEXANDER GABUEV GAMES OUT PUTIN'S NEXT MOVES.

>> I GREW WITH AN UNDERSTANDING AND APPRECIATION AND RESPECT FOR WHAT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT MEANT.

>> ALABAMA MOVES TO BREAK UP ITS LARGELY BLACK CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO REPRESENTATIVE SHOMARI FIGURES, WHOSE DISTRICT IS ON THE LINE.

> >> AND LATER -- ?

THE SOUND OF A WOMAN, SPEAKS HER MIND WHEN SHE'S TOLD SHE SHOULDN'T ?

>> SINGER, SONGWRITER AND ACTRESS RITA WILSON TAKES A CATHARTIC, DEEPLY PERSONAL LOOK AT A WOMAN'S LIFE.

?

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

COULD THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN BE CLOSE TO AN AGREEMENT TO END THE FIGHTING?

IRAN SAYS IT'S STUDYING THE LATEST U. S. PROPOSAL, WHILE THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN EXPRESSES OPTIMISM.

APPARENTLY ON THE TABLE, A ONE-PAGE PLAN DECLARING AN END TO THE WAR, FOLLOWED BY A 30-DAY NEGOTIATION PERIOD ON THE STICKIER DEAL POINTS, INCLUDING NUCLEAR ISSUES AND SECURITY IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IN ROME, THE U. S. SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO MET WITH POPE LEO AMID THE TENSION BETWEEN THE VATICAN AND THE WHITE HOUSE.

ACCORDING TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT, THE TWO DISCUSSED THEIR, QUOTE, SHARED COMMITMENT TO PROMOTING PEACE AND HUMAN DIGNITY.

NOW HUMAN DIGNITY IS OFTEN ONE OF THE FIRST CASUALTIES OF WAR.

IRAN REPORTS MORE THAN 3,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED DURING THE U. S. AND ISRAELI ATTACKS.

AND AMIDST ALL OF THE DESTRUCTION, UP TO FOUR MILLION MORE PEOPLE COULD FALL INTO POVERTY DUE TO THE CONFLICT, ACCORDING TO THE U. N. VERY FEW REPORTERS OR WESTERN OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN PERMITTED INTO IRAN TO SEE THE DEVASTATION, MAKING THE EXPERIENCE OF OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT.

SHE IS MIRJANA SPOLJARIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS, AND HAS RECENTLY RETURNED FROM A VISIT TO TEHRAN, MEETING WITH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND OTHERS.

AND SHE'S JOINING US LIVE FROM SWITZERLAND, WHICH IS THE ICRC HEADQUARTERS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MIRJANA SPOLJARIC.

WE REALLY WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN, BECAUSE IT IS, AS I SAID, SO RARE TO GET A GOOD VIEW, A BIRD'S-EYE VIEW, FROM THE PEOPLE'S POSITION.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I'VE RETURNED IRAN WITH A FIRM CONVICTION THAT WE HAVE TO PROTECT CIVILIAN LIFE.

IN THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST REGION, THIS IS EXTREMELY URGENT.

I WANT TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

I WANT TO BE ABLE TO BE SURE THAT THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER ESCALATIONS HARMING POTENTIALLY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE COPING WITH AT THE MOMENT.

IT'S NOT THE ACTUAL HUMANITARIAN SITUATION THAT THEY'RE IN, BUT IT'S THE FEAR OF AN ESCALATION THAT WILL REALLY HAVE A VERY STRONG IMPACT ON THEM, BECAUSE THIS CONFLICT RISKS, IF IT CONTINUES TURNING AGAINST THEM SPECIFICALLY.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

YOU SAID IT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY THAT, BUT MORE THE FEAR OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN.

IS IT A BAD HUMANITARIAN SITUATION FOR THE CIVILIANS?

WHAT DID YOU SEE?

>> WHAT I SAW IS THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY THE RECENT ESCALATION.

THE RED CROSS LOST FOUR PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE HAD THE PREMISES DAMAGED, AND THEY HAVE SEEN VEHICLES DAMAGED, AND THEY HAVE THEMSELVES BEEN HURT AND ENDANGERED.

WIVES TRYING TO RESCUE OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE RUBBLE, AND WIDE SPRINGING ASSISTANCE.

WE ARE WORKING IN SUPPORT OF THE RED CRESCENT, BRINGING IN MEDICAL ASSISTANTS.

WE'RE PREPOSITIONING WITH KIDS TO BE ABLE TO TREAT WAR-WOUNDED PEOPLE, CASUALTIES IN THE EVENT OF ANOTHER ESCALATION.

BUT WHATEVER WE CAN BRING IN THE FACE OF THE LARGENESS OF THE POPULATION AND THE IMPACT ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHAT WE CAN BRING AT THE MOMENT, EVEN THOUGH WE JUST BROUGHT ANOTHER 5,000 TONS, IT'S VERY LITTLE COMPARED TO WHAT COULD HAPPEN TO THEM.

>> CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW MANY PEOPLE OUT OF A POPULATION OF ALMOST 100 MILLION ARE IN DIRE STRAITS.

HOW MANY WOULD YOU SAY HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS WAR?

>> THEIR RESILIENCE IS VERY LOW AT THE MOMENT.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO FINISH THE MONTH.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

ECONOMICALLY, THEY'RE UNDER ENORMOUS PRESSURE.

SO THEY ARE NOT CAPABLE OF PREPARING AS MUCH AS THEY NEED FOR A RENEWED WAR.

BUT THIS APPLIES TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE REGION.

I DON'T WANT US TO LOSE THE FOCUS ON LEBANON, WHERE A MILLION HAVE BEEN DISPLACED, DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'LL BE ABLE TO RETURN HOME AND BACK TO THEIR VILLAGES BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

THE TWO MILLION PEOPLE STILL LIVING DISPLACED AND IN VERY DIRE, IF NOT INHUMANE CONDITIONS IN GAZA.

THE WHOLE REGION CAN COME UNDER STRAIN, NOT ONLY IRAN.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US.

AND THIS IS WHAT I REALIZED TRAVELING THROUGH IRAN, BECAUSE IT'S A VAST COUNTRY.

IT'S A VAST POPULATION.

THERE ARE MANY SIDES THAT CAN BE ATTACKED, AND PEOPLE TELL ME THIS IS THE NEXT TARGET, AND THIS WILL IMPACT US.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN THREATS CERTAINLY OVERT THREATS FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ROLLING SOME OF THAT BACK, TO BOMBING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, YOU KNOW, POWER PLANTS, BRIDGES, THAT KIND OF THING.

AT ONE POINT HE SAID WE'RE GOING TO WIPE OUT A WHOLE CIVILIZATION TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, THAT SENT THE CHILLS UP SO MANY SPINES, INCLUDING IN LEADERSHIP AROUND THE WORLD, NOT TO MENTION INSIDE IRAN.

DID YOU GET A SENSE THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAN IS ACTUALLY PRIORITIZING WHATEVER HUMANITARIAN AID FOR THE PEOPLE?

THERE ARE MANY QUESTIONS ALWAYS ABOUT WHERE GOVERNMENTS PUT THE KIND OF AID THAT COMES TO THEM, WHETHER THEY HOARD IT OR WHETHER THEY ACTUALLY DISTRIBUTE IT.

>> LOOK, MY CONVERSATIONS WITH THE GOVERNMENT REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL.

BUT WHAT I CAN SAY PUBLICLY IS THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT ITS OWN PEOPLE IS A PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY.

IT APPLIES TO ALL STATES.

SO YOU ARE BOUND BY THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS IN THE EVENT OF CONFLICT.

YOU HAVE TO SPARE SPARE CIVILIAN LIVES, OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THE MAKE COUNTRIES, IN THE REGION, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO PROTECT CIVILIAN LIFE IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AT ALL LEVELS, UNDER ALL CONDITIONS.

>> AND MIRJANA SPOLJARIC, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS?

BECAUSE THE ICRC IS VERY MUCH INVOLVED.

YOU JUST MENTIONED THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS, AND YOU HAVE AN INCREDIBLY RESPONSIBLE ROLE.

I KNOW IT'S OF NEUTRALITY, BUT TO TALK ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

SO AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY REPORTS OF EXECUTIONS COMMITTED BY THIS GOVERNMENT IN IRAN UNDER THE COVER OF THIS WAR THAT'S BEING WAGED AGAINST THEM.

YOU KNOW, ARRESTING PEOPLE THEY SAY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LAST ROUND OF PROTESTS.

WERE YOU ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT TO THE GOVERNMENT?

DID YOU MAKE IT CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, AD HOC ARRESTS AND SHOW TRIALS IS NOT MEETING YOUR IDEALS, NOR THE GENEVA CONVENTION'S?

>> LOOK, MY MANDATE THROUGH THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS APPLIES TO ARMED CONFLICT.

NOW IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS APPLY, ANY DETAINEE THROUGH CUSTOMARY LAW, OTHER LAWS, DESERVES HUMANE TREATMENT AND ACCESS TO HEALTH AND ACCESS TO DUE PROCESS, IRRESPECTIVE, AGAIN, OF WHETHER MY MANDATE APPLIES.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY RELEVANT WHAT I SAY, IT IS A FACT THAT ANY GOVERNMENT HAS TO TREAT ITS DETAINEES HUMANELY AND PROVIDE THE SERVICES THAT THEY NEED FOR SURVIVAL.

>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE BROADER MIDDLE EAST AND FOCUSING ON GAZA AND LEBANON, AS WELL AS YOU DID ON IRAN.

AND WE'RE TALKING NOW ABOUT THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS.

NOT ONLY IN THE MANNER THAT I JUST POSED THE QUESTION, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF STRIKES ON HOSPITALS, ON RELIGIOUS CENTERS, MOSQUES, CHURCHES, ET CETERA, SYNAGOGUES, CULTURAL HERITAGE, BASICALLY, CIVILIAN STRUCTURES.

THIS IS GOING ON, AND WE CAN SEE THE PICTURES ALL OVER THESE PLACES THAT I'VE JUST MENTIONED.

ARE YOU CONCERNED WITH ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE AND ALL THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ICRC THAT THERE IS A DIMINISHING RESPECT FOR THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS?

AND I'M NOW TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE BOMBING IRAN OR GAZA OR LEBANON?

>> ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, ACROSS THE LAST YEARS, AND PROBABLY ACROSS ALL THE DIFFERENT HORRIBLE SIDES OF CONFLICT THAT WE OPERATE IN, INCLUDING THE HORN OF AFRICA, UKRAINE AND OTHER PLACES, I SEE A HOLLOWING OUT OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS.

AND IT'S UNBEARABLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, YOU KNOW, CIVILIANS ARE SYSTEMATICALLY REDUCED TO NUMBERS AND STATISTICS.

WE ARE LOSING SIGHT OF HUMANITY, WHICH HAS TO BE PUT AT THE CENTER OF ALL OF THIS.

WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE LEVELS OF DESTRUCTION.

WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE LEVELS OF SUFFERING ANYMORE.

THE NUMBERS OF CASUALTIES AND DISPLACED PEOPLE AND THE RHETORIC AROUND IT IS MOST PROBLEMATIC, BECAUSE IT LOWERS THE BARRIERS.

IT LOWERS THE MORAL FRONTIERS TO WARS.

NOW, YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE, WHOEVER, AND MANY PEOPLE DO THAT, USES DEHUMANIZING LANGUAGE.

WHOEVER SAYS THERE ARE NO RULES, DEHUMANIZES ITS OWN MILITARY BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING DE FACTO ASKED TO DO THINGS THAT ARE ILLEGAL, BUT ALSO IMMORAL AND UNBEARABLE FOR THEM.

WE HAVE TO PUT HUMANITY BACK AT THE CENTER.

I HOPE THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF ANY COUNTRY INVOLVED IN THIS WILL DO THAT, BECAUSE IT WILL HELP FIND THE SOLUTION AND NEGOTIATE A SOLUTION THAT WILL HOLD, THAT WILL BRING RESPITE TO THE PEOPLE, BUT ALSO TO US.

BECAUSE WE ARE EXTREMELY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND BEYOND OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

IT HAS TO BE REVERSED.

AND I'M SAYING THIS WITH ACUTE SENSE OF URGENCY.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT, BECAUSE WE ALSO RECOGNIZE IT.

WE REPORT IT.

THE DEHUMANIZING LANGUAGE, THE LANGUAGE OF VIOLENCE.

SO, LOOK, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU EXPRESS HOPE THAT IT HAS TO STOP.

BUT IT COMES FROM VERY SENIOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

LET'S JUST TAKE THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER, ISRAEL KATZ, WHO HAS EXPLICITLY SAID THAT TACTICS USED IN SOUTHERN LEBANON ARE MODELED ON WHAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY DID IN PLACES LIKE RAFAH OR BEIT HANOUN IN GAZA.

AREAS AND ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS WERE REDUCED TO RUBBLE.

YOU KNOW, ISRAEL HAS THE UPPER HAND RIGHT NOW.

IT IS ACTING WITH A SENSE OF FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITY.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU'LL ABLE TO MAKE THE CASE, YOU HAVE JUST TOLD US TO THEM AND WHAT THE RESPONSE IS.

>> TURNING THE ENEMY'S LAND DOES NOT INCREASE SECURITY ON THE COUNTRY.

IT SOWS THE SEEDS FOR THE FUTURE CONFLICT BEING EVEN WORSE THAN THE PRESENT ONE.

WE NEED TO DE-ESCALATE.

AND NOT SINGLING OUT SPECIFIC PARTIES TO ANY CONFLICT, BECAUSE GENERALLY WHAT WE SEE IS A SYSTEMATIC DISMISSAL OF THE RULES THAT WERE CREATED TO PRESERVE A PATHWAY BACK TO PEACE.

NOW IF WE WANT TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT PEACE, WE HAVE TO START WITH APPLYING THE RULES OF WAR, ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES OF WAR, WHICH IS TO AVOID TRAUMA THAT WILL NOT BE REMEDIED FOR DECADES, IF NOT GENERATIONS.

WE HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO PEACE.

BUT THE WORST DEEDS THAT ARE COMMITTED ARE FOR THE POPULATIONS THE MORE DIFFICULT IT WILL BE TO RETURN TO THE TABLE AND TO ACTUALLY AGREE ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE AGREED AT THE MOMENT.

>> LET ME JUST ASK ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT GAZA, BECAUSE YOU OPERATE, I THINK, ONE OF THE VERY, VERY FEW, IF NOT THE ONLY ACTUAL HOSPITAL.

IT'S LOCATED IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE STRIP.

CAN YOU TELL ME THE CONDITIONS THERE, WHO RULES THAT AREA WHERE YOUR HOSPITAL IS LOCATED?

WHAT IS THE STATE OF NOT JUST MEDICAL AID, BUT HUMANITARIAN AID TO THE PEOPLE OF GAZA?

BECAUSE THERE ARE CONTINUOUS BOMBINGS.

WE GET CONTINUOUS REPORTS OF CIVILIANS BEING KILLED PRACTICALLY ON A DAILY BASIS, EVEN UNDER A SO- CALLED CEASEFIRE.

>> I VISITED THE HOSPITAL DURING HOSTILITIES, AND IT IS NOW TWO YEARS INTO ITS EXISTENCE BEING JUST NOW IN THE PROCESS OF BEING UPGRADED.

THAT HOSPITAL HAD BEEN ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR ONE YEAR.

IT IS STILL THERE, AND IT IS STILL THE ONLY FULLY FUNCTIONAL HOSPITAL IN THE AREA WHERE PEOPLE CAN ACCESS THE NECESSARY SERVICES.

THE HEALTH SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE REBUILT.

YOU CANNOT ONLY SURVIVE BASED ON AN INCREASE OF FOOD.

NOTHING HAS COME IN AT SCALE THAT IS NECESSARY TO RECOVER FROM THE CONFLICT AND TO CREATE HUMANE CONDITIONS OF THE PEOPLE REMAINING.

THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, AND IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

SO THE SITUATION INDEED IS STILL VERY BAD.

>> AND MISS SPOLJARIC, I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST QUESTION OF IRAN.

ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WAR, THE UNITED STATES, BASICALLY WITH A TOMAHAWK MISSILE WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE GIRLS SCHOOL, AND MORE THAN 100 GIRLS, YOUNG GIRLS, SCHOOL GIRLS, WERE KILLED.

HAVE YOU YET BROUGHT THAT UP TO THE UNITED STATES?

A LOT OF THE FORENSIC EVIDENCE BY THE PRESS, BY OTHERS HAVE CONCLUDED THAT IT WAS A U. S. MISSILE THAT CAUSED THAT AMOUNT OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

>> LOOK, WHEN I TRAVEL TO WAR ZONES REGULARLY, EVERY TIME CHILDREN ASK ME WHEN THEY CAN GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

NOT GOING TO SCHOOL IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO ABSORB BECAUSE FOR MANY REASONS, IT GIVES THEM A SENSE OF SOMETHING HAPPENING THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR US.

NOW PARENTS WILL FEAR SENDING THEIR KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL, AND THE KIDS HAVEN'T RETURNED BACK TO SCHOOL IN IRAN FOR MOST PARTS.

IT'S THE CANARY IN A COAL MINE IN THE SENSE THAT WE SHOULD REVERSE THE PATTERNS OF WARFARE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE, AND BECAUSE THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN AT SCALE.

WE CANNOT REPEAT THE PATTERNS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN GAZA, IN LEBANON, IN ISRAEL AND ELSEWHERE.

WE HAVE TO REVERSE THE TIDE BEFORE WE REACH A POINT OF NO RETURN.

AND AN ESCALATION IN IRAN AND SURROUNDING COUNTRIES CAN BE OF A SCALE WHERE IT WILL COME OUT OF CONTROL.

THIS IS WHY I'M SO SERIOUS ABOUT IT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE ACTUAL HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN IRAN.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT CAN HAPPEN AND THE URGENCY TO FIND AN AGREED SOLUTION, AND I HOPE IT WILL HAPPEN.

IT WILL DEPEND ON THE LEADERSHIP OF THE RESPECTIVE GOVERNMENTS AND ON THEIR COMMITMENT TO ACTUALLY STAY AT THE TABLE UNTIL THIS IS THE CASE.

>> I JUST WANT TO PRESS YOU A LITTLE BIT, AND MAYBE ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN WHAT ABOUT YOUR POSITION, A POSITION OF NEUTRALITY, A POSITION OF THE WAY THE ICRC OPERATES, WHY YOU ARE UNABLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER YOU PUT THAT CATASTROPHE TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> NO, NO.

CHRISTIANE, I CAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

I WILL NEVER JUSTIFY.

>> OH, GOOD.

>> NEVER, THE KILLING OF CHILDREN IN THAT CLASSROOM, EVER.

>> NO, NO.

I KNOW THAT.

YOU'RE NOT JUSTIFYING.

I'M JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER YOUR OFFICE, THE OFFICE OF THE ICRC HAS PUT THE CASE AND ASKED THE UNITED STATES WHAT IT WAS THINKING, WHY THAT HAPPENED, AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T DO THAT AGAIN.

>> OUR REPORTS THAT WE SUBMIT TO THE WARRING PARTIES ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD ARE ALWAYS DETAILED.

AND WHATEVER WE CAN SUBSTANTIATE, WE CAN ACERTAIN, WE SUBMIT.

AND THESE REPORTS ARE ARCHIVED.

BUT IF EVERYBODY WERE ALWAYS LISTENING TO US AND FOLLOWING OUR ADVICE, OUR READING OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS, WE COULDN'T SEE THE LEVELS OF SUFFERING.

BUT I DO ALSO HAVE TO UNDERLINE THAT OUR COOPERATION WITH THE U. S. HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY FRANK ONE, A VERY REGULAR ONE, AND THE DIALOGUE WITH THE U. S. AUTHORITIES RELEVANT IN THESE CONVERSATIONS HAVE NEVER -- HAS NEVER BEEN SUSPENDED.

AND THIS I NEED TO RECOGNIZE HERE AS WELL.

THE U. S. REMAINS A COUNTRY THAT WORKS WITH US, EVEN IF THEY HEAR THINGS FROM US THAT THEY MAY NOT WANT TO HEAR OR MAY NOT AGREE WITH.

THE U. S. IS STILL OUR BIGGEST FUNDER, AND THIS IS HOW WE OPERATE.

>> WELL, I REALLY THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED, MIRJANA SPOLJARIC, THE PRESIDENT, THE HEAD OF THE ICRC.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

> >> NOW THE TOP UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATOR HAS ARRIVED IN MIAMI FOR MEETINGS WITH U. S. REPRESENTATIVES HOPING TO RESTART STALLED PEACE TALKS WITH RUSSIA.

BUT BACK HOME, THE KILLING CONTINUES.

RUSSIAN ATTACKS DID KILL MORE THAN 20 PEOPLE ACROSS UKRAINE ON TUESDAY, AND NOW VLADIMIR PUTIN IS DEMANDING A WEEKEND CEASEFIRE TO ENSURE PROTECTION OF HIS NATIONAL VICTORY DAY CELEBRATIONS IN RUSSIA.

THE KREMLIN SAYS ANY EFFORTS TO DISRUPT THEIR PARADE WOULD PROMPT A, QUOTE, RETALIATORY MASSIVE MISSILE ATTACK ON THE CENTER OF DOWNTOWN KYIV.

SO HOW WILL EUROPEAN LEADERS DEAL WITH RUSSIAN AGGRESSION AS THE UNITED STATES STEPS BACK A LITTLE BIT FROM THE REGION?

LATE LAST YEAR, A WAR GAME ORGANIZED BY A GERMAN NEWSPAPER FOUND THAT A DANGEROUS TIME FOR THE CONTINENT MAY BE COMING.

IN THAT EXERCISE, THE ROLE OF VLADIMIR PUTIN WAS PLAYED BY REGIONAL EXPERT ALEXANDER GABUEV, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS THIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YEAH, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A DELAY.

BUT LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, I WILL GET TO THE WAR GAME IN A MOMENT.

BUT IT IS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY, THE LATEST FROM PUTIN, THE THREATS, THE DEMAND FOR A WEEKEND CEASEFIRE, THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE DRAMATICALLY SCALED BACK THEIR MASSIVE ANNUAL PARADE TO COMMEMORATE THIS, YOU KNOW, VICTORY DAY IN WORLD WAR II, THAT HE APPARENTLY IS BARELY VISIBLE THESE DAYS, PUTIN.

WHAT ARE YOU UNDERSTANDING FROM THE LATEST MOVES FROM THE KREMLIN?

>> I THINK IT TELLS YOU ABOUT ONE THING, AND THAT'S THE UKRAINIAN NEW ABILITY TO STRIKE TARGETS DEEP INSIDE RUSSIA AT SCALE AND HOLD STRATEGIC LOCATIONS IN RUSSIAN AT RISK.

THAT OF COURSE CAUSES A LOT OF WORRY BY THE RUSSIAN TOP BRASS AND BY PRESIDENT PUTIN HIMSELF.

AND THIS IS WHY WE'RE SEEING FEWER OF HIM LATELY, AND THAT IS WHY THE KREMLIN IS SO WORRIED ABOUT THE PRIZED MILITARY PARADE ON THE RED SQUARE.

>> OKAY.

SO CNN IS REPORTING THIS WEEK, AND IT'S BASED ON EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE DOSSIER THAT PUTIN HIMSELF HAS DRAMATICALLY TIGHTENED HIS PERSONAL SECURITY, APPARENTLY FEARING ASSASSINATION, PERHAPS FEARING A COUP.

AND THIS ALL DOCUMENT, COMPLAINS THAT HE IS NOW WORKING MOSTLY FROM BUNKERS DISPERSED AROUND SOUTHERN RUSSIA.

REUTERS IS SAYING PUTIN'S APPROVAL RATING HAS JUST FALLEN TO 65.

6%, WHICH STILL OVER HALF, IS THE LOWEST SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US, OR WHAT MORE DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW THIS IS GOING FOR PUTIN AND WHAT KIND OF PUBLIC DISSENT IS BREWING?

>> I GUESS THAT WE DON'T HAVE A KRYSTAL BALL TO READ VLADIMIR PUTIN'S MIND, ALTHOUGH WE WISH.

ALL THE DATA POINTS AVAILABLE SHOW THAT THERE IS A GROWING CONCERN ABOUT HIS PERSONAL SAFETY, THAT HIS ROW CONNECTION DETAIL IS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT UKRAINIAN ABILITY TO KILL HIM THE WAY THE SUPREME LEADER OF IRAN WAS KILLED.

AND THIS IS WHY, INDEED, THEY'RE GOING AN EXTRA MILE TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS.

AND THEN ON THE SECOND PART, INDEED, WE SEE THAT THE APPROVAL FOR THE WAR AND THE CURRENT COURSE IN RUSSIA IS DIMINISHING BECAUSE RUSSIA IS FEELING THE ECONOMIC HEAT OF THE SANCTIONS AND THE WAR.

UKRAINIANS ARE BRINGING A MESSAGE BACK HOME WITH THE STRIKES.

AND THE KREMLIN HAS SHUT DOWN INTERNET IN MOST POPULOUS CITIES WHICH IS DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.

>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY TO HEAR ALL THIS, BECAUSE UP UNTIL NOW, WE'VE HEARD THAT PUTIN, YOU KNOW, KEEPS A VERY, VERY TIGHT LEASH, THAT NO -- NONE OF THIS IS AT ALL PUBLIC.

AND WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT SEVERAL PUBLIC REVELATIONS OF THE WORRY THAT PUTIN AND THE KREMLIN ARE UNDER.

LISTEN TO WHAT THE ECONOMIST HAS WRITTEN.

AS RECENTLY AS LAST SPRING, EVERYTHING WAS "WE" AND "OURS. "

MR.

PUTIN'S WAR ON UKRAINE MAY BE RECKLESS AND FAILING, BUT IT WAS SHARED.

WE ARE INCITED AND IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR US IF IT ENDED SOONER.

NOW THEY DESCRIBE WHAT IS HAPPENING IS HIS STORY, NOT OURS.

NOT OUR PROJECT, NOT OUR AGENDA, NOTE OUR WAR.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS QUOTING A SHIFT IN RHETORIC BY SENIOR RUSSIAN OFFICIALS.

DO YOU THINK --I KNOW WE CAN'T READ PUTIN'S MIND, BUT DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY EVIDENCE THAT PUTIN MIGHT WANT TO DECLARE VICTORY AND GET OUT WHILE HE CAN?

>> THE UNFORTUNATE NEWS, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO EVIDENCE THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS READY TO CHANGE COURSE.

AND, YES, WE SEE GROWING CONCERN ABOUT HIS PERSONAL SAFETY.

WE ARE SEEING GROWING DISSATISFACTION.

WE SEE THE ECONOMY FLASHING RED.

HOWEVER, HE MOST LIKELY BELIEVES THAT HE STILL MAINTAINS RESOURCES TO CONTINUE THE WAR.

AND HE'S POSITIONED AT THE NEGOTIATION TABLE IS PRETTY STUBBORN.

AND MAXIMALISM, HE IS CONTINUING TO THROW TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE MEAT GRINDER ON THE FRONT LINES EVERY MONTH.

AND THERE IS ZERO INDICATION THAT SATISFACTION THAT IS REAL CAN LEAD TO ANY CHANGE IN HIS COURSE.

>> AND JUST TO BE VERY CLEAR, I'VE HEARD FROM SEVERAL VERY WELL PLACED INDIVIDUALS IN WESTERN GOVERNMENTS THAT ACTUALLY UKRAINE IS NOT DOING AS BADLY AS PUTIN WOULD LIKE THE WORLD AND CERTAINLY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO THINK, THAT HE'S NOT DOING AS WELL.

AND YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED THIS UPTICK IN UKRAINIAN DEEP STRIKES THAT IS VERY WORRYING TO THE KREMLIN.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW UKRAINE IS DOING ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND "RUST" STAN ROEMEROFF FROM UKRAINE TELLS NEGOTIATORS IN MIAMI.

>> I THINK UKRAINE IS GOING THROUGH TREMENDOUS HARDSHIP, TREMENDOUS LOSS OF LIFE, TREMENDOUS LOSS OF ECONOMIC AND OTHER ASSETS.

HOWEVER, THE RESILIENCE AND THE WILLINGNESS TO FIGHT IS STILL THERE.

THEY HAVE THE TENACITY, THEY HAVE THE TECHNOLOGICAL EDGE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THEY ALSO HAVE NOW THE EUROPEAN FINANCIAL LIFELINE, THE 90 BILLION YEAR ROWS CREDIT LINE THAT WILL BRING THEM OVER TO THE NEXT YEAR AND WILL FINANCE BOTH THEIR FISCAL NEEDS AND THEIR NEED TO PURCHASE WEAPONS.

>> AND LET'S GET TO THE WAR GAME THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT RECENTLY.

NOW I KNOW IT WAS CONDUCTED BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR, I THINK AT THE END OF LAST YEAR, AND IT JUST WAS MADE PUBLIC.

AND YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT IT.

YOU, IRONICALLY, SINCE YOU I THINK FLED OR LEFT RUSSIA WITH THIS INVASION OF UKRAINE, THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, YOU PLAYED PUTIN.

WHAT WAS YOUR --HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT, FIRST?

AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION AT THE END OF THIS WAR GAME?

>> THAT WAS A VERY AWKWARD FEELING.

I WAS A REPORTER BEFORE I JOINED THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT IN MOSCOW.

I WAS COVERING THE KREMLIN.

SO I KNOW A LOT OF THE PRINCIPLES ON THE EVIL TEAM THAT IS MY COUNTRY, THAT IS UNFORTUNATELY DESTROYING COUNTRY OF UKRAINE WHERE MY MOTHER WAS BORN.

SO IT'S A VERY SAD FEELING.

HOWEVER, I FELT THAT THIS EXERCISE NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND THIS EXERCISE NEEDS TO INFORM THE PUBLIC DEBATE BECAUSE THIS GUY HAS RISK APPETITE AND RESOURCES THAT SOME PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE GIVEN THE MISERABLE PERFORMANCE OF RUSSIA AT THE BATTLEFIELD.

HOWEVER, IT'S STILL VERY DANGEROUS, AND THIS IS WHY BRINGING THIS REALITY TO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN IS IMPORTANT NOT TO SCARE THE PEOPLE, BUT TO PREPARE THEM AND TO GIVE THEM MENTAL FRAME TO THINK ABOUT THOSE ISSUES.

>> AND VERY FINELY, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE POSSIBLE FUTURE TARGETS, IF ANY OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, EUROPE IS READY, LEARNING, AND BEEFING UP, ESPECIALLY AS THE U. S. IS TENDING TO PULL BACK?

>> I THINK THAT EUROPE --EUROPEAN POLITICIANS UNDERSTANDS THE SENSE OF URGENCY.

HOWEVER, THE TIME FRAME IS NOT VERY BENEFICIAL BECAUSE THE PROCESS TAKES A LONG TIME.

AND THE DECISION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP TO WITHDRAW TROOPS AND NOT POSITION LONG- RANGE FIRES THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PROMISED IS SENDING A VERY BAD SIGNAL TO VLADIMIR PUTIN WHERE HIS DESIRE TO TEST NATO'S COMMITMENT TO ARTICLE 5 TO PROTECT ALL THE MEMBERS MIGHT BE ATTEMPTED, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> ALEXANDER GABUEV, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> >> NOW ELECTIONS ARE ABOUT VOTERS CHOOSING THEIR POLITICIANS.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE MAP LETS POLITICIANS CHOOSE THEIR VOTERS?

WELL, MANY ARGUE THAT THE ALABAMA STATE LEGISLATURE'S PUSH TO REDRAW CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS IS DOING JUST THAT.

AND PEOPLE ARE PROTESTING.

THIS FOLLOWS THE SUPREME COURT GUTTING THE KEY PROVISIONS OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, MAKING IT HARDER TO CHALLENGE PLANS THAT DILUTE VOTING POWER ALONG RACIAL LINES.

OUR NEXT GUEST, DEMOCRATICIC REPRESENTATIVE SHOMARI FIGURES JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE COURT'S RECENT RULING.

>> SHOMARI FIGURES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE A REPRESENTATIVE CONGRESSMAN FROM ALABAMA.

I GUESS LET'S START A LITTLE FARTHER BACK.

YOU RAN BACK IN 2023.

GROWING UP, WHAT DID YOU KNOW ABOUT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT?

>> WELL, LOOK, I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING RAISED BY PARENTS WHO WERE BOTH ELECTED OFFICIALS.

>> YEAH.

>> MY FATHER WAS ONE OF THE FIRST BLACK SENATORS ELECTED IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA, POST RECONSTRUCTION.

MY FATHER INTEGRATED THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA'S LAW SCHOOL.

MY MOTHER WAS ON THE CITY COUNCIL IN THE CITY OF MOBILE, CITY GOVERNMENT WAS FORMED IN A VERY WELL SUPREME COURT CASE, BOLDEN VERY CITY OF MOBILE, DECIDED IN THIS MOST RECENT LOUISIANA CASE AS WELL.

SO I GREW UP, YOU KNOW, UNDER THE SHADOWS OF IT, UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT MEANS, WHAT IT MEANT, THE ROLE THAT IT PLAYED IN BOTH OF MY PARENTS BEING IN ELECTED OFFICE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH A HISTORY AND UNDERSTANDING AND APPRECIATION AND RESPECT FOR WHAT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT MEANT.

>> SO WHAT DID THE CREATION OF YOUR DISTRICT, THE ONE THAT YOU REPRESENT NOW, WHAT DID THAT MEAN?

HOW DID THAT IMPACT BLACK VOTERS IN YOUR AREA?

>> AFTER THE DECISION CAME DOWN FROM THE SUPREME COURT IN 2023, WHICH EFFECTIVELY ALLOWED THE COURT TO IMPOSE ON IS THE STATE THE ABILITY TO REDRAW DISTRICTS, IT CREATED AN OPPORTUNITY, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE COURT DESIGNED ITS REMEDY TO DO.

IT GAVE ALABAMA THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.

THEY REFUSED TO DO IT.

SO THE COURT ESSENTIALLY HAD THE DISTRICT REDRAWN BY AN INDEPENDENT --AN INDEPENDENT PARTY.

AND IT GAVE FOR THE FIRST TIME A LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY TO A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE STATE AND THE AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION IN THE STATE, LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A SECOND MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

MY DISTRICT IS NOT A MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT, CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF.

IT'S ABOUT 47% BLACK, 46% WHITE.

SO IT'S A VERY RACIALLY DIVERSE DISTRICT.

AND WITHIN THAT DISTRICT, IT PROVIDED A LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY FOR MYSELF AND CANDIDATES LIKE ME TO HAVE A SHOT AT ACTUALLY BEING ELECTED.

>> JUST TO BACK UP FOR OUR AUDIENCE, AT THAT TIME THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT ESSENTIALLY ALABAMA LAWMAKERS HAD CREATED AND ADOPTED A MAP THAT DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BLACK CITIZENS, RIGHT?

>> CORRECT.

SO WHEN IT WENT TO THE SUPREME COURT THE FIRST TIME, THEY HAD THESE VOTING RIGHTS ACT CASES WORK ON A PRELIMINARY FINDING.

AND SO THE ORIGINAL PART OF THE CASE THAT WENT TO THE SUPREME COURT, THE LOWER COURT HAD FOUND THERE WAS A LIKELY VIOLATION OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IN '23.

AND THEN THE COURT ORDERED THAT THE DISTRICTS BE REDRAWN.

AND THEN THERE WAS A SUBSEQUENT TRIAL HELD IN 2024 WHERE THE COURT ACTUALLY MADE THE FINDING THAT THERE WAS DISCRIMINATION, THAT THERE WAS INTENTIONAL DISCRIMINATION.

AND BY THAT TIME, WE'D ALREADY BEEN RUNNING FOR ELECTION AND BEEN ELECTED.

SO THIS ALL BEGAN WITH A FINDING --ULTIMATELY, A FINDING OF INTENTIONAL DISCRIMINATION THAT THE LOWER COURT FOUND THAT THE STATE OF ALABAMA HAD ACTUALLY ENGAGED IN.

>> OKAY.

SO HERE WE ARE, FAST FORWARD NOW TO THE PRESENT DAY.

AND BECAUSE AS A RIPPLE EFFECT OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE SUPREME COURT IN LOUISIANA, WHAT IS THE CONVERSATION TODAY AT THE ALABAMA LEGISLATURE?

WHAT ARE THE MAPS THAT THEY WANT TO PUT BACK?

?

>> SO ALABAMA WANTS TO DO SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T WANT THEM TO DO.

THEY WANT TO GO BACKWARDS, BACKWARDS IN TERMS OF USING MAPS THAT THEY HAD PREVIOUSLY TRIED TO USE.

AND ALSO BACKWARDS IN TERMS OF WHAT THOSE MAPS, THE OUTCOMES THAT WILL ULTIMATELY COME FROM HAVING ELECTIONS WITH THOSE MAPS.

YOU ALSO GOT TO REMEMBER THAT IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE OF HOW THE STATE ACTED IN THE LITIGATION, THEY REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH SEVERAL COURT ORDERS, THERE IS ACTUALLY A COURT ORDER IN PLACE WITH THE LOWER COURT THAT PREVENTS THE STATE OF ALABAMA FROM REDRAWING ITS DISTRICTS AFTER THE 2030 CENSUS UNLESS THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNS THE CASE.

SO WHAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE IS ESSENTIALLY DOING NOW IS TRYING TO LAY THE GROUNDWORK THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO MOVE VERY QUICKLY IN THE EVENT THAT A COURT DOES ALLOW THE STATE TO REDRAW ITS MAPS.

SO THEY ARE AMENDING THE PRIMARY ELECTION SCHEDULE.

WE'RE ALREADY IN THE MIDDLE OF A PRIMARY ELECTION.

IT'S ALREADY STARTED FOR ABSENTEE VOTING.

I'VE ALREADY VOTED MYSELF BECAUSE I WILL NOT BE IN THE CITY ON ELECTION DAY.

THEY ARE AMENDING THE PRIMARY SCHEDULE AND ALSO PASSING CONTINGENCY MAPS.

THESE ARE BOTH MAPS AT THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAD PREVIOUSLY ADOPTED BUT THAT WERE DECLINED TO BE USED BY THE FEDERAL COURT.

SO IN THE EVENT THAT THE COURT LIFTS THE ORDER, THEY COULD USE THESE MAPS AND HOLD THE ELECTION AT A LATER DATE THAT IS TYPICALLY ALLOWED UNDER OUR CURRENT LAW.

>> YOU KNOW, AT THE CORE OF THIS IS THIS IDEA THAT HOW DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN WILL INEVITABLY PREDISPOSE THE OUTCOME.

IF I HAVE X NUMBER OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS DISTRICT, THEY ARE LIKELY TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC.

IF I DON'T, THEY'RE LIKELY TO VOTE REPUBLICAN.

THIS IS A SOLIDLY RED STATE.

SO HOW MUCH OF THAT PLACE OUT WHEN IT ACTUALLY COMES TO PEOPLE PULLING THE LEVER?

IS IT ALL SORT OF AN AUTOMATIC PARTY LINE VOTE?

IS IT BY DEMOGRAPHIC?

IS IT BY RACE?

>> LOOK, I'D HAVE TO PULL THE EXACT DATA POINTS IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS DECISION HAS ESSENTIALLY SAID THAT IT'S OKAY TO END UP IN A PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE DISCRIMINATORY OUTCOMES AS LONG AS YOU TELL US THAT THEY WERE DONE FOR PARTISAN REASONS.

ANOTHER WAY OF KIND OF SAYING THAT IS IT'S OKAY TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST DEMOCRATS ARE BLACK AS LONG AS YOU DON'T DISCRIMINATE AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE DEMOCRATS, WHICH LEADS TO THIS VERY AWKWARD SORT OF CONUNDRUM OF ALMOST A CHICKEN AND EGG CONVERSATION, WHICH COMES FIRST.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOING TO HAVE REAL IMPACTS IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA, NOT JUST AT THE CONGRESSIONAL LEVEL, BUT AT EVERY SINGLE LEVEL OF PARTISAN ELECTION GOVERNMENT, RIGHT.

SO YOU'RE LOOKING AT STATE SENATE MAPS, WHICH IS ALSO INVOLVED IN SOME LITIGATION HERE IN THE STATE WHERE THEY ALSO MADE A FINDING THERE.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT STATE REPRESENTATIVE MAPS, STATE SCHOOL BOARD MAPS, JUDGES AND OTHER OFFICIALS.

SO THIS IS A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT.

>> YOU KNOW, A BLACK REPUBLICAN STATE REPRESENTATIVE IN OHIO, JOSH WILLIAMS, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE LOUISIANA DECISION.

HE SAID, LOOK, THE IDEA THAT BLACK AMERICANS NEED SPECIAL DISTRICT CARVED OUT FOR JUST THEM IS A COMPLETE NONSENSE.

IT'S VIOLATION OF THE LAW AND BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

OF COURSE THE WHITE HOUSE IS CHEERING THE DECISION IN THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY CALL IT A COMPLETE AND TOTAL VICTORY, AND "THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN SHOULD NOT DICTATE WHICH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT YOU BELONG IN. "

WHAT'S THEIR RESPONSE TO THAT LINE OF THINKING?

>> LOOK, I THINK IT'S MISLEADING FIRST AND FOREMOST.

THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IS NOT ABOUT CARVING OUT DISTRICTS FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO WIN.

THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IS ABOUT CARVING OUT DISTRICTS THAT CREATE A LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY FOR FAIR REPRESENTATION.

SO THAT YOU CAN'T WATER DOWN THE BLACK VOTE IN A WAY THAT ESSENTIALLY MAKES IT MEANINGLESS IN TERMS OF HAVING A LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S A --I THINK THAT'S GENERALLY A PRINCIPLE THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN AGREE WITH, RIGHT.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THE GENTLEMAN FROM OHIO DOESN'T SEE IT THAT WAY.

BUT LOOK, I THINK TO THE WHITE HOUSE'S POINT OF THIS BEING A COMPLETE AND TOTAL VICTORY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IT'S FAR FROM THE CASE.

THEY WERE HOPING THAT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WOULD BE DEEMED UNCONSTITUTIONAL, I THE COURT DID NOT DO.

IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT A COMPLETE AND TOTAL VICTORY FOR THE STATE OF ALABAMA, BECAUSE IN THE DECISION, JUSTICE ALITO SPECIFICALLY SAYS "WE ARE NOT OVERRULING THE ALABAMA CASE. "

IN FACT, HE GOES SO FAR TO HIGHLIGHT THE CASE THAT IN THE ALABAMA CASE, THE STATE DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO DEFEND ITS MAP AS BEING DRAWN FOR PARTISAN REASONS.

I THINK THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES TO WHAT THE STATE OF ALABAMA DID AND HOW THE SUPREME COURT VIEWS WHAT THEY DID.

>> EVEN IF IT'S NOT ALABAMA, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE RIPPLE EFFECTS THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH HERE?

WE ALREADY SEE KIND OF MOMENTS IN MOVEMENTS IN TENNESSEE AND POSSIBLY OTHER STATES AS WELL.

>> OH, FOR SURE.

THERE WILL CERTAINLY BE RIPPLES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THOSE RIPPLES WILL CERTAINLY BE MORE PRONOUNCED IF NOT EXCLUSIVE ILY PRONOUNCED IN STATES THAT HAVE A REPUBLICAN TRIFECTA, HAVE A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, A REPUBLICAN-LED SENATE, A REPUBLICAN-LED STATE HOUSE.

IT'S ALSO GOING TO BE DISPROPORTIONATELY ACROSS THE OLD SOUTH, WHICH IS THE PLACE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WAS BORN OUT OF BECAUSE OF HISTORICAL DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES THAT WE SAW ACROSS STATES LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALABAMA AND LOUISIANA AND MISSISSIPPI AND TEXAS AND GEORGIA AND TENNESSEE AND SOUTH CAROLINA AND A HANDFUL OF OTHERS.

SO WE'RE DEFINITELY GOING TO SEE IT.

SO THERE WILL BE RIPPLE EFFECTS NOT JUST ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT AGAIN, ACROSS EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT THAT RUNS PARTISAN ELECTIONS.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ALABAMA, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN TENNESSEE AND OTHER PLACES, LOUISIANA ARE PART OF THIS NATIONAL ARMS RACE, IF YOU WILL, TO TRY TO SHORE UP DISTRICTS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL OR THE MIDTERM CYCLE?

>> WELL, WHAT STARTED IN ALABAMA IS NOT PART OF THAT.

BECAUSE THIS CASE IN ALABAMA STARTED RIGHT AFTER THE 2020 CENSUS.

THIS LAWSUIT WAS ORIGINALLY FILED IN 2021, AND IT WAS STILL SORT OF ONGOING.

AND NOW UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE WE'RE SEEING THE PRESIDENT, YOU KNOW, REGARDLESS OF WHICH TERM YOU WANT TO USE, WHETHER IT'S STACK THE DECK FOR THE ELECTION, MOVE THE GOALPOST OF THE ELECTION OR CHANGING THE RULES OF THE GAME DURING THE GAME, WHATEVER TERM YOU WANT TO USE, BECAUSE HE IS LEADING THAT EFFORT, YOU ARE SEEING STATES GRASP AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY HAVE TO PICK UP SEATS.

THIS IS SOMETHING OBVIOUSLY THAT STARTED IN TEXAS.

CALIFORNIA RESPONDED AND APPROPRIATELY RESPONDED.

DIDN'T HAVE AN OPTION BUT TO RESPOND.

WE'VE SEEN OTHER STATES PICK UP THE CHARGE FROM DONALD TRUMP TO ACT IN THE SAME MANNER, AND WE MOST RECENTLY SAW VIRGINIA COME IN AND RESPOND AS WELL.

WE EXPECT OTHER STATES TO GET INVOLVED IN.

THIS AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS IS A RACE TO THE BOTTOM.

AND THE END, WHEN IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE, I THINK THE MARGINS ARE GOING TO LOOK VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE NOW IN TERMS OF LEGITIMATE SEATS THAT A DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN CAN WIN WHEN YOU AGGREGATE THE RESULTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE WE SHOULD BE IN, BUT TEXAS STARTED THIS.

DONALD TRUMP STARTED THIS.

THIS WAS CERTAINLY NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS GOING ON BACK IN 2020 WHEN THIS MATTER FIRST STARTED IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE SPEED AT WHICH THE LOUISIANA CASE THERE IS USUALLY THIS SORT OF 32-DAY PERIOD WHEN THE RULING IS ANNOUNCE AND WHEN THE JUSTICES FORMALLY PASS A DECISION, THEY KIND OF FAST TRACK THAT IN THIS CASE AND EVEN IN THE WAY THE JUSTICES WERE SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER.

JUSTICE JACKSON, IN HER DISSENT TO THE COURT SAYING LOOK, THIS IS GOING TO BE SPAWNING CHAOS IN THE STATE OF LOUISIANA.

AND JUSTICE ALITO CALLING HER REASONING BASELESS AND INSULTING AND SAYS IT LACKS RESTRAINT.

HOW DO YOU VIEW THAT AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS WATCHED THE COURT?

>> LISTEN, IT'S CERTAINLY DIFFERENT THAN THE LANGUAGE I GREW UP READING AND STUDYING WHEN I WAS A LAW STUDENT.

YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE HAVE TO REMAIN AT A PLACE WHERE WE CAN CONTINUE TO HAVE FAITH IN OUR JUDICIARY.

IF WE LOSE FAITH IN THE JUDICIARY BRANCH AS A WHOLE IN ITS ENTIRETY, YOU KNOW, THEN WE ARE IN A DARK PLACE AS A COUNTRY.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A FAN OBVIOUSLY OF THIS PARTICULAR SUPREME COURT DECISION THAT CAME OUT.

BUT I AM A FAN OF THE DECISION THAT CREATED THE PATHWAY FOR ME TO GET TO CONGRESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THAT WAS THROUGH A THREE- JUDGE PANEL.

TWO OF THE JUDGES WERE APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP AND ONE WAS ORIGINALLY APPOINTED TO THE BENCH BY RONALD REAGAN.

AND EVEN THEY UNANIMOUSLY DETERMINED THAT ALABAMA HAD INTENTIONALLY RACIALLY DISCRIMINATED.

WE OBVIOUSLY WANT TO SEE OUR COURT IN A WAY WHERE THEY MAINTAIN COLLEGIALITY TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE HAVE TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE WE CAN, YOU KNOW, MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD ULTIMATELY AT THE END OF THE DAY TO GET TO A POINT WHERE CAN HAVE MORE SAY OVER WHAT TYPE OF JUSTICES AND WHAT TYPE OF JUDGES ARE BEING PUT ON THE COURT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS HERE IN ALABAMA?

AND IS IN PRIMARILY A RESISTANCE TO THIS DECISION WHEN THIS KIND OF FRAMING IN ALABAMA STATE LEGISLATURE BY DEMOCRATS ON THE LEFT, ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO ARE REPUBLICANS AND INDEPENDENTS WHO ARE ALSO CONCERNED BY THIS?

>> I THINK CONCERNS ARE ABOUND ACROSS THE BOARD FROM A VARIETY OF REASONS.

YOU LOOK AT, FOR INSTANCE, MY --THE DISTRICT THAT I REPRESENT RIGHT NOW.

ONE OF THE COUNTIES, MY HOMETOWN COUNTY, MOBILE COUNTY, ALABAMA, WE NOW HAVE TWO MEMBERS IN CONGRESS, ONE ON EACH SIDE OF THE AISLE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE, DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN, LIKE THAT DYNAMIC.

THEY LIKE THE FACT THAT REGARDLESS WHO IS IN CONTROL IN CONGRESS, REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT WE HAVE A LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ABLE TO FURTHER THE LEGISLATIVE PRIORITIES THAT MATTER LOCALLY, THAT WE HAVE LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITIES THROUGH BOTH SIDES OF THE HOUSE TO BE ABLE TO PURSUE FEDERAL APPROPRIATIONS REQUESTS.

SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT NOT EVERYBODY IS JUST IN LOCKSTEP WITH IT IN TERMS FROM A VOTER BASE.

IN TERMS OF WHAT'S NEXT, FIRST AND FOREMOST IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA, WE ARE A BUSINESS AS USUAL IN TERMS OF ME BEING IN CONGRESS.

AND CONGRESSWOMAN TERRY SOL BEING IN CONGRESS.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA.

THE LAW HAS NOT CHANGED.

IN FACT, THE SUPREME COURT EXPLICITLY SAID WE'RE NOT OVERTURNING THE ALABAMA CASE.

AND SO THE STATE IS GRASPING AT STRAWS.

THEY'RE LITERALLY PULLING OUT EVERY STOP.

THEY'RE TRYING TO FILE EVERY TYPE OF MOTION THEY CAN POSSIBLY FILE AT THE SUPREME COURT AND AT THE LOWER COURT.

AND TO THIS POINT, NOTHING HAS RESULTED IN ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO ALLOW THE STATE OF ALABAMA TO REDRAW ITS CONGRESSIONAL MAPS.

>> WHEN YOU TALK TO ALABAMA REPUBLICANS AND ASK THEM ONE-ON-ONE, WHETHER IT'S IN THE HALLWAYS OR WHEREVER, YOU SAY LISTEN, YOU THROUGH THESE MAPS WERE BAD, AND AT THE MOMENT, YOUR PARTY IS FIGHTING TO PUT THOSE MAPS BACK IN.

WHAT'S THEIR RESPONSE TO YOU?

>> I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S SIMILAR TO WHAT WE HEAR WITH DONALD TRUMP.

A LOT OF REPUBLICANS DESPISE DONALD TRUMP IN PRIVATE.

THEY SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE THINGS THAT HE IS DOING.

THEY SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE HARM THAT HE IS CAUSING.

I MET WITH SOME FARMERS EARLIER WHO WERE DIE-HARD REPUBLICANS, BUT THEY WERE DEFINITELY --DEFINITELY NOT A FAN OF THE IMPACT THAT THE TARIFFS HAVE HAD ON THEM, THE IMPACT THAT THESE RISING FUEL COSTS HAVE HAD ON THEM, AND THE IMPACT THAT THE LACK OF SUPPORT COMING TO THE AG COMMUNITY, WHILE WE'RE SEEING SUPPORT GO TO OTHER FARMERS IN ARGENTINA HAS HAD ON THEM.

SO THE QUESTION IS WHAT DOES THAT LOSS OF SUPPORT, HOW DOES THAT TRANSLATE INTO PEOPLE MAKING THEIR VOICES HEARD, AND ARE THEY WILLING TO SPEAK OUT AND VOTE AGAINST THAT SORT OF --YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF THINKING THAT'S LITERALLY HARMING THEM.

SO HERE WE SEE A LOT OF THAT SAME SENTIMENT WITH THE MAPS.

SOME REPUBLICANS KNOW THAT THEY'RE PROBLEMATIC.

SOME REPUBLICANS CERTAINLY KNOW WHAT THE UNDERLYING REASON WAS BEHIND LINES BEING DRAWN THE WAY THEY WERE DRAWN, WAS TO PUT AS MANY BLACK VOTERS WHO THEY ASSUME WILL VOTE DEMOCRATIC INTO A SINGLE DISTRICT TO LIMIT THEIR IMPACT.

AND THEY KNOW IT'S WRONG.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, NOT TOO MANY ARE WILLING TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE TO PUSH BACK ON AND GET TO A MAP THAT ALLOWS FOR FAIR REPRESENTATION AND OPPORTUNITIES.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS COMES DOWN TO KIND OF NATIONAL POLITICAL ALLEGIANCE DOING WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOUR SPECIFIC STATE AND WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOUR SPECIFIC CONSTITUENTS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE LICHTED TO DO TO KEEP THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE IN MOBILE THAT SENT YOU THERE.

>> YES.

THAT EXTENDS NOT JUST FROM MOBILE BUT UP TO MONTGOMERY, THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHICH IS WHY THIS CASE HAS EVEN MOREL VENICE AND SIGNIFICANCE TO ME.

LIKE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT ULTIMATELY CAME OUT OF WHAT STARTED IN MONTGOMERY IN 1955, THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AND PLACES LIKES TUSKEGEE IN MY DISTRICT AS WELL WITH THEIR LONG STORIED HISTORY.

I THINK SO A LOT OF IT COMES FROM MORE OF AN ALLEGIANCE TO PARTY THAN IT DOES TO COUNTRY.

AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY THE SORT OF RACE TO THE BOTTOM NOW WHERE YOU'RE LITERALLY SEEKING TO MINIMIZE IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA'S CASE, THEY'RE COMING OUT SAYING HEY, WE'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE, ELIMINATE -- AND THIS IS COMING FROM PEOPLE IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE, THAT THEY WANT TO ELIMINATE EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY THAT A DEMOCRAT HAS TO WIN.

IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA.

AND THAT IS NUTS.

THAT SORT OF --THAT SORT OF PHILOSOPHY, IF THAT WAS THE MIND-SET WHEN WE WENT INTO A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, WE WOULD NOT HAVE EMERGED WITH A UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

IF YOU TOLD SMALLER STATES, IF YOU TOLD, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE MINORITY OF A POLITICAL PARTY AT THAT TIME THAT HEY, WE WANT TO CREATE A SYSTEM, WE WANT TO CREATE A NATION OF LAWS THAT'S GOING TO ALLOW US TO MUTE YOU, TO REMOVE YOUR ABILITY TO HAVE LEGITIMATE OPPORTUNITIES TO BE REPRESENTED IN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THEY ALL WOULD HAVE PUSHED AWAY FROM THE TABLE.

SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE SENTIMENT IS JUST UN-AMERICAN.

IT'S NOT RIGHT.

IT'S NOT FAIR, AND IT'S NOT MAKING US THE BEST NATION THAT WE CAN POSSIBLY BE.

>> REPRESENTATIVE SHOMARI FIGURES, DEMOCRAT FROM ALABAMA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

HAVE A GOOD ONE, MAN.

> >> AND FINALLY, "SOUND OF A WOMAN. "

THAT IS THE TITLE OF A NEW ALBUM FROM SINGER, SONGWRITER AND ACTRESS RITA WILSON.

IT'S A RAW AND VULNERABLE RECORD WHICH FOLLOWS THE ARC OF A WOMAN'S LIFE WITH UNFLINCHING HONESTY, AS WELL AS PERFORMING, WILSON COWROTE AND COPRODUCED THE RECORD.

LET'S HAVE A LISTEN TO A LITTLE BIT OF THE TRAILER.

>> WHAT IS THE SOUND OF A WOMAN.

?

IT'S DOOR SLAMMED CLOTHES, IT'S TAKING BLOWS ?

>> IT'S DISRUPTIVE.

>> SOFT-SPOKEN, SEXY.

>> LETTING OUT A SIGH.

>> A WHOOSH.

>> AGGHH!

?

THE SOUND OF A WOMAN, SPEAKS HER MIND WHEN SHE'S TOLD SHE SHOULDN'T, SO SHE CAN'T REALLY SAY SHE COULDN'T ?

.

>> AND RITA WILSON JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

HI, RITA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI, CHRISTIANE.

>> IT'S A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL SONG.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S AMAZING.

AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY AND WHAT LED YOU TO THAT.

THIS IS I THINK YOUR SIXTH ALBUM.

>> IT IS.

WHAT LED ME TO IT?

WELL, PART OF IT WAS I HAD BEEN WRITING FOR A WHILE, BUT THIS FELT VERY PERSONAL.

MY COWRITER AMY AND I WANTED TO TELL THE STORY OF AN ARC OF A WOMAN'S LIFE FROM THE EXPERIENCES SHE'S HAD OVER THE COURSE OF HER LIFE.

AND STARTING FROM BEING A YOUNG WOMAN TO BEING THE AGE THAT I AM NOW.

AND WE REALLY WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT.

>> AND IS IT SOMETHING THAT WAS EASY OR REVEALING EVEN TO YOURSELF?

BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD A VERY, VERY VARIED CAREER.

SINGING LATE IN YOUR CAREER.

YOU'D BEEN ON STAGE.

YOU HAD REALLY SUCCESSFUL TV, BEEN IN MOVIES, ET CETERA.

WHAT ABOUT THE SONGWRITING, THE COLLABORATING, AND THE WILLINGNESS TO BE PUBLICLY VULNERABLE?

>> YOU'VE NAILED IT.

IT'S SOMETHING WHEN YOU'RE ACTING OR DOING SOMETHING ELSE, YOU'RE USING OTHER PEOPLE'S WORDS.

AND THE WHOLE ACT OF SONGWRITING THAT I DID COME INTO MY '50s REALLY ALLOWED ME TO USE MY VOICE IN A WAY I COULDN'T REALLY DO IN THE KINDS OF PARTS THAT WERE BEING OFFERED TO ME.

AND I --I REALIZED THAT IT WAS SUCH A VERY VULNERABLE PLACE TO BE.

YOU'RE REALLY EXPOSING YOURSELF.

AND I'VE BEEN VERY LUCKY AND COMFORTABLE TO BE IN A VERY PUBLIC PROFESSION AND STILL BE A VERY PRIVATE PERSON.

SO THIS ALBUM BEING MORE PERSONAL IS A LITTLE BIT SCARY TO BE OUT THERE WITH IT, YOU KNOW, IN THAT WAY, TALKING ABOUT THESE SUBJECTS.

BUT IT'S ALSO BECAUSE AS WOMEN WE COME INTO THE WORLD IMMEDIATELY WITH IDENTITIES THAT ARE ATTRIBUTED TO US.

YOU'RE SUCH A SWEET LITTLE GIRL, AND YOU'RE A SASSY TEEN OR A TOM BOY.

AND THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES, WE SORT OF ADOPT THESE IDENTITIES.

BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY FULLY WHO WE ARE.

AND TO ME BECOMING A WOMAN OR FINDING YOUR VOICE OR THIS SOUND OF A WOMAN IS NOT NECESSARILY ELIMINATING THOSE IDENTITIES BUT ALLOWING THE MORE ESSENTIAL PARTS OF YOURSELF TO BE EXPLORED AND EXPOSED AND SHOWN TO THE PEOPLE THAT YOU LOVE AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE OUT THERE.

AND THAT WAS SORT OF THE INTENT.

>> AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION?

BECAUSE YOU'RE USED TO GETTING THE REACTION FROM BEING IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA.

BUT WHAT WAS THE REACTION FROM PEOPLE YOU LOVE, PEOPLE YOU KNOW, PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW TO RITA WILSON THE SINGER?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT NOW.

I MEAN, I WOULD PROBABLY START WITH MYSELF ON THAT.

LIKE I STILL HAD TO CONVINCE MYSELF THAT I WAS GOING TO BE DOING IT.

BUT NOW THAT I'VE BEEN WRITING FOR ABOUT 13 YEARS, 14 YEARS, IT'S BEEN --I'VE LEARNED AND I'M MORE COMFORTABLE WITH IDENTIFYING AS AN ARTIST AND A SINGER-SONGWRITER.

AND YET I THINK I'M NOT ALONE IN THAT.

THERE ARE SO MANY WOMEN OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING REALLY INCREDIBLE THINGS AFTER THE AGE OF 50.

AND YOU KNOW OUR DEAR FRIEND NORA EFRON WAS A GREAT INSPIRATION TO ME BECAUSE SHE SAID GREAT THINGS HAPPEN AFTER THE AGE OF 50.

AND SHE DIDN'T START DIRECTING HER FIRST MOVIES UNTIL SHE WAS 50.

SO AS FAR AS HAVING ANY KIND OF A ROLE MODEL IN MUSIC, THERE WASN'T ONE.

THERE WAS ANYBODY I COULD LOOK AT AND SAY WELL, SHE'S DONE IT AT THAT AGE.

SO IN SOME WAYS I WAS FINDING MY OWN PATH AND MY OWN WAY TO DO IT, BUT NOT ALONE, BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MANY SONGWRITERS ALONG THE WAY THAT BELIEVED IN IT ALSO AND TRUSTED THEMSELVES TO ME AND TO THE PROCESS SO THAT WHEN WE WERE WRITING SONGS, THEY BELIEVED IN WHAT THE IDEAS WERE.

AND I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED NORA EFRON, THE GREAT DIRECTOR-WRITER.

YOU'VE BEEN IN A FILM OF HERS.

YOU'RE PART OF A VERY HIGH PROFILE MARRIED COUPLE.

TOM HANKS IS YOUR PROBLEM.

HE'S BEEN DIRECTED BY NORA EFRON.

AND ONE OF YOUR SONGS IS CALLED "MARRIAGE. "

AND YOU TALKING 50s.

IN YOUR 50s, YOU WERE DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND YOU WENT THROUGH ALL YOU HAD TO GO THROUGH.

YOU'RE NOW TEN YEARS FREE.

>> 11.

>> BUT I'M FASCINATED BY WHAT YOU RECENTLY REVEALED A --11 YEARS FREE --92nd STREET, WHY YOU TOLD TOM TOE MAKE YOU TWO PROMISES IN CASE IT DIDN'T WORK OUT.

>> RIGHT.

ONE WAS WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR PROGNOSIS IS AND YOU'RE JUST SCARED AND YOU HAVE THESE VERY DEEP REAL CONVERSATIONS, ONE WAS I HAVE TWO REQUESTS.

THE FIRST ONE WAS I WANT YOU TO BE SAD FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

AND THE SECOND WAS THAT I WANTED TO HAVE A PARTY AND A CELEBRATION, WHICH INSPIRED A SONG OF MINE CALLED "THROW ME A PARTY" WHICH IS REALLY ABOUT THAT.

LIFE IS A CELEBRATION.

IT'S A JOY.

WHEN YOU HAVE CANCER, YOU REALIZE HOW IMPORTANT EVERY DAY IS, AND REALLY, IT IS A GIFT.

AND THERE IS A LIBERATION TO IT WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE THIS SECOND LEASE ON LIFE.

YOU REALLY STOP CARING ABOUT THINGS THAT REALLY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.

YOU REALLY FOCUS ON THINGS THAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT.

>> AND YOU ARE DOING A GREAT SERVICE TO EVERYBODY OUT THERE, BECAUSE HIGH PROFILE, TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, BUT THAT IT IS SURVIVABLE.

IF YOU CATCH IT EARLY ENOUGH, IF YOU GET IT DIAGNOSED.

>> CORRECT.

>> AND IT IS MANAGEABLE, BECAUSE OF MEDICINE AND THE GREAT PROGRESS RIGHT NOW.

SO IT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE TO BE OUT THERE.

AND YOU'VE ALSO, I WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER OF THE SONGS, OR AT LEAST A SNIPPET.

>> OKAY.

>> THIS IS CALLED "JURY OF ONE. "

ALL ABOUT FEMALE GUILT.

>> YES.

?

AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE DONE, THERE'S A JURY OF JUST ONE, IT'S ME ?

?

I'M GUILTY ?

>> IT'S ALWAYS WOMEN SAYING SORRY.

REALLY, EVEN AT YOUR STAGE AND AGE, EVEN IN OUR POSITIONS?

>> YES, IT'S TRUE.

I MEAN, I LIKE TO JOKE THAT GUILT HAS A TWIN SISTER CALLED APOLOGY OR SORRY.

BUT THOSE TWO SEEM TO GO HAND IN HAND.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU'RE FEELING GUILTY THAT YOU'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING ELSE, EITHER, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND THE KIDS WERE AT HOME, AND IF I WERE WORKING, I WOULD FEEL GUILTY ABOUT NOT BEING THERE FOR THEM.

IF I WAS WITH THEM, I WAS DISTRACTED OR FEELING APOLOGETIC THAT I COULDN'T GET TO MY WORK IN THE RIGHT WAY.

AND THEN I ALSO THINK THAT THERE IS GENERAL APOLOGY FOR BEING A WOMAN IN THE WORLD IN SOME WAYS, YOU KNOW.

I FIND THAT IT SORT OF --WE COME INTO THE WORLD FEELING LIKE WE SHOULD BE APOLOGIZING FOR THINGS.

I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES A DAY I SAY "I'M SORRY" FOR THINGS.

IF SOMEONE KICKED ME IN THE SHINS, I'D SAY I'M SORRY.

BUT IT'S SOMETHING TO EXPLORE.

I DON'T THINK I'M ALONE IN THAT.

>> BUT NO MORE.

"SOUND OF A WOMAN" MEANS NEVER HAVING TO SAY YOU'RE SORRY.

I'M JUST MAKING THAT UP.

>> I LOVE THAT.

>> RITA WILSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR TOUR.

>> THANK YOU.

>> GOOD LUCK.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

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