New Doc Highlights the Influence of Negro League Baseball

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And turning back to America now, and its favorite pastime, baseball. Major League Baseball, of course, banned African American athletes at the end of the 19th century. They created their own league. Its success and popularity is the focus of a new documentary called, “The League,” and here is a clip from the trailer.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A few entrepreneurs sees that a black club can be a successful business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rube Foster, light years ahead of its time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Effa Manley.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first lady of black baseball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negro Leagues players who made the game more up tempo, bat and run, base stealing. This incredibly acrobatic catches.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Major Leaguer’s would say that the Negro Leagues didn’t play the game the right way. Really, that was a — they didn’t play the game the white way.

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And the critically acclaimed director, Sam Pollard is joining Walter Isaacson to discuss how these players changed the game and transformed the country.

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WALTER ISAACSON, HOST: Sam Pollard, welcome to the show. Congratulations on this great documentary, “The League.”

SAM POLLARD, DIRECTOR, “THE LEAGUE”: Thank you, Walter. Great being here.

ISAACSON: Like me, you are St. Louis Cardinals fan growing up. And I want to take you back to the year 1964. An amazing year when they come from behind to win the pennant. They’ve got Bill White and, you know, a great first baseman, defensive player, winds the Golden Glove. Curt Flood, who led the national league in hits, and traded to them in the middle of the season’s Lou Brock, who steals all these bases. One of the things about them is they are all African Americans. When you are watching that pennant race, did you think about the fact they were African Americans and did you realize that just 20 years before they wouldn’t have been able to play?

POLLARD: You know, I knew a little bit about Jackie Robinson into creating Major League Baseball in ’47 with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And my dad was a huge St. Louis Cardinals fan, I became a Cardinals fan. And it was just the idea of Lou Brock and Curt Flood and Bill White and Bob Gibson on the field made it so special for me. So, I didn’t — I don’t know if I was really thinking about this, I mean, these were African American players, but, you know, they were negro players to me back then. So, it was important just to see them on the field. And I watch it on television. You know, we have that little black and white TV, and we saw the games. So, when I got the opportunity to work on this documentary about the Negro Leagues, it’s really dig into not only understanding who Satchel Paige was and Josh Gibson was, who I knew about when I was 14 and 15, now, I got to learn about, you know, Rube Foster and Effa Manley and Gus Greenlee, you know, and Cum Posey and all the other phenomenal players and managers and owners who made the Negro Leagues, you know, so important in the ’20s, ’30s, and ’40s.

ISAACSON: You know, the thing that struck me, I didn’t know this, is that in the late 1800s there were a lot of African American players who played on mostly white teams. Let’s look at a clip from your documentary that talks about that.

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ANDREA WILLIAMS, JOURNALIST: African Americans have been playing baseball for as long as white people have been playing baseball. As the sport begins to take hold in popularity, post-civil war, black people where there always. There were organized black teams and they barnstormed, they played against other black teams, they played against white teams.

GERALD EARLY, CULTURAL CRITIC: There were blacks who did play with whites on teams. The team was majority white, they may have one or two black players on it. And that seemed to be something that was more acceptable to the white paying public, if they only had one or two black players as opposed to a team that might have majority black players and one or two white players.

WILLIAMS: But as we move forward through history, we see that segregation starts to tighten its hold.

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ISAACSON: Tell me about these players and in the late 1800s.

POLLARD: But we always — you know, I was always under the assumption when I was in my teens that it was Jackie Robinson who was the first African American who played — integrated — was integrated into the Major League Baseball. But in doing the research, we learned that there was a gentleman named Moses Fleetwood Walker in the late 1880s who was one of the African Americans to play on these white teams. And there were other black players playing on these teams in the 1880s, 1890s, until the beginning of the 20th century. But then, there was a gentleman’s agreement that was really started by a Hall of Famer, Cap Anson, who basically didn’t want to play with black players. And that sort of just really permeated all the Major League teams when they decided not to have any black players on those teams, you know. So, that’s what led to people like Rube Foster in 1920 with a bunch of other owners, Negro League owners, saying in Kansas City, Missouri, let’s put together our own national league of black teams, and they created in 1920 the Negro National League, which really flourished for about 10 years until the untimely death of Rube Foster around 1929, 1930. And then, there was another sort of major upheaval in the ’30s out of Pittsburgh, you know, which was a wonderful hub, you know, they had the factories and they had a lot of black people in the community. And two men basically started the second integration of negro baseball, and that was a gentleman named Cum Posey, who owned a Homestead Grays, and Gus Greenlee, who owned the Pittsburgh Crawfords. And those teams and those players and those teams were the things I really got to know about as a young man, and those are people like Satchel Paige, the wonderful pitcher, Satchel Paige, the great home run hitter, Josh Gibson, you know, the player, Cool Papa Bell, Buck Leonard, Oscar Charleston, there was such phenomenal players. And they were so good that they created what was sort of like what we just saw this past couple of days, the all-star game, they called it the East-West Classic. Where the best players from the eastern teams and the western teams would come to the other and they would play baseball. And you know and I know that back then, when we were young then, baseball was the American pastime. Everybody loved baseball. Now, it’s not the case so much anymore, but back then, that was everything everybody talked about, you know, baseball, baseball, baseball.

ISAACSON: Let’s talk about some of the people in this documentary. Rube Foster, fascinated me.

POLLARD: Rube Foster is a phenomenal person. First of all, he was a great pitcher and he became a wonderful owner of the Chicago American Giants. Then he decided, I’m going to bring together not only my team but other Negro League teams and owners to create the Negro National League. So, he is the father Negro League baseball. He had untimely death in 1929, 1930, but his legacy has stood the test of time, and he is in the Hall of Fame. And then his mantle — that mantle has passed on to two other great owners, Cum Posey, who own the Homestead Grays and Gus Greenlee, who owned the Pittsburgh Crawfords. And those two men along in the ’30s really reignited Negro League Baseball, and they had wonderful players, Satchel Paige, phenomenal picture, Josh Gibson, great hitter, Cool Papa Bell, who could run the bases with lightning speed, Oscar Charleston, Buck Leonard, you know, they had great players. And then, you saw, after World War II, there was another group of players who would be the first group to ever go into the Major Leagues, Monte Irvine who went to the New York Giants after Willie Mays. Jackie Robinson, who we all know went to the Brooklyn Dodgers. Larry Doby from the Newark Eagles, who was the first African American playing in the American league with the Cleveland Indians. You know, Willie Mays, Roy Campanella, Don Newcombe, the list goes on and on and on. So, you know, you could see that this history was extremely impactful. And the other thing I always want to say that when I’m doing these documentaries about the African American experience, I want people to clearly understand it is a part of American history.

ISAACSON: Yes. Let’s talk about that part of American history because starting with Plessy v. Ferguson, that’s where the segregation happens in baseball. But you also see in the 1920s, even 1930s, during the depression, when the Negro League came up, it’s connected with the newspapers like “The Chicago Defender” is connected with black-owned businesses. So — and it’s even feels like a movement in your documentary, like almost a civil rights movement. Tell me how it’s connected to history.

POLLARD: Well, here’s the important thing to remember that black communities, which were basically segregated because we’ve been seen as second-class citizens, we had to figure out how to survive both, you know, culturally and economically. You know, we had to have our own businesses, we had to have her own doctors, we had to have her own lawyers. And the Negro League teams and the Negro League owners was a part of that economic engine in those communities, you know. Black people could go to baseball games on the weekend, they could buy stuff from the concession stands, they could buy — you know, they could see the players play who got paid. You know, so, the money that was generated by the Negro League owners and the teams went back into the black community, and that’s how these communities were able to survive, you know, and flourish, you know, because we weren’t being given anything. We were treated as second-class citizens. So, it was important that these teams came about because, like the funeral parlors, like the dentists, like the doctors, like the stores, it was another way economically for the communities to flourish.

ISAACSON: You talk about Rube foster being a great pitcher, but then helps form the Negro Leagues. Compare him as a pitcher to Satchel Paige, the most famous coming out of the Negro League.

POLLARD: The thing about Satchel Paige, historically and legend wise, he was considered the greatest Negro League pitcher ever. I mean, in the film, we tell a story about he had the infield sit down, the outfield come in, and he struck out nine straight batters. You know, that shows you — you know, not — he struck out three pitches — he took out three batters with nine pitchers, you know, that shows you how great a player he was.

ISAACSON: It also shows you what a showman he was. Tell me about that barnstorming time in the ’30s with Dizzy and Daffy Dean playing Satchel Paige’s team, what was that all about?

POLLARD: Well, it was about making some extra money. It was the off-season and these teams — you know, it wasn’t like the baseball players today who makes millions and millions of dollars. When the season was over and baseball players need to survive, they would go around the country and they would play local teams, they would play black teams, they would play white teams to make some extra money, to generate some crowds. And this was an opportunity when they had the white teams playing black teams for white people to see how talented the black Negro League players were, you know. And this led to the white press understanding, maybe there should be some talks about integration. And we had black newspapers like “The Chicago Defenders” — “Chicago Defender” and “The Pittsburgh Courier” basically titling the same thing, the importance of maybe integrating Major League Baseball.

ISAACSON: We always think of Jackie Robinson up there with Satchel Paige, first person to be brought in, to be integrating the Brooklyn Dodgers. First, let’s look at a clip involving Jackie Robinson.

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LLOYD BROWN, COMMUNITY ORGANIZER: One of the very first day — times that I went to see the game at Ebbets Field, first of all, going on the subway, you know, thought all of Harlem was heading there. Everybody I see, they’re bringing along baskets, they’ve got chicken. It’s like a big picnic. All of Harlem when I going Ebbets Field, and so, you know where they’re going and you know why they’re going. Jackie, everybody talking about Jackie

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ISAACSON: So, tell me about the importance of Jackie Robinson and the owner, Branch Rickey, who brought him in. I always thought Branch Rickey was a hero, but not quite so in your documentary.

POLLARD: We complicated Branch Rickey is. I mean, listen, when I was 14 years old, Jackie Robinson was their cats’ pajamas man. We all said he was a greatest thing to happen to Major League Baseball when he integrated to Brooklyn Dodgers. And we all know the classic picture of the footage of Jackie Robinson signing the contract, sitting next up Branch Rickey. And Branch Rickey is — in terms of mythologies, look, there’s this wonderful human being who basically says to Jackie Robinson, we want you to integrate Major League Baseball, but you’ve got to be able to deal with all of the, you know, obscenities and racism, and keep it all contained, you know, because it’s going to be good for the sport, it’s going to be good for your people. Now, what we didn’t know about Mr. Rickey that we learned in this documentary was that he didn’t want to compensate the Negro League for the players he signed, specifically Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, and Don Newcombe. And one of the owners, one of the Negro League owners, a woman named Effa Manley, who was a co-owner of the Newark Eagles, challenged this, in print, you know. How come Branch Rickey is not compensating Negro League owners for the players he is signing? And she was able to get Bill Deck, who is a wonderful showman for the Cleveland Indians to compensate her for signing — for him signing Larry Doby, who became the first African American to play in the American Leagues in 1948. So, you know, it’s always — for me, it’s always interesting when you do these documentaries to be able to, you know, dig into a story and see the levels of complexity and see that it’s a different way than you — the way you originally told the story.

ISAACSON: Jackie Robinson also becomes an early leader of the civil rights movement, an early face of the civil rights movement. Was that because of his experiences becoming the first black player in the Major Leagues and how did that affect him?

POLLARD: I think Jackie Robinson, you know, becoming a voice in the civil rights movement goes back to even before he became a ball player. If you remember, he was court-martialed, you know, in the ’40s when he was a soldier — officer for not refusing to sit in the back of the bus, on a bus that he was on. You know, so he always — had a certain level of pro activism about who he was as a man of color, as a black man, you know. But he just became much more ferocious and much more — and had a bigger voice about it as his career evolved as a baseball player.

ISAACSON: Tell me what the integration of Major League Baseball did to the Negro Leagues.

POLLARD: Well, with players like Willie Mays and Hank Aaron and Ernie Banks and Jackie Robinson —

ISAACSON: All of whom came from the Negro Leagues.

POLLARD: They all came from the Negro Leagues. And, you know, it had of (ph) the fans, the fans wanted to see these players. So, now, they had an opportunity to go to Major League, you know, Baseball stadiums to see these players, which meant they didn’t go to many Negro League games. And the Negro League team started to suffer, they lost some of their best players, they were losing their crowds, you know. So, by 1960, it became diminished and it was lost forever. But it’s sort of like, you know, a metaphor for what happens with integration. I mean, we all know the importance of brown people in the education in 1954, we all know the importance of Montgomery bus boycott, you know. But, you know, integration is a very tricky thing in American. There’s an upside and a downside to. And even today– and you know this, Walter, (INAUDIBLE), there’s communities all across America, you know, that supposedly integrated, but they’re not, you know, because of, you know, economics, because of, you know, community locations. You know, so, this notion of integration, in some ways, was the downside to communities because those who were professionals, the doctors and the lawyers who had been forced to live within one type of community now had the opportunity to move out of those communities. And if you lost those kinds of people out of your communities, then the communities would suffer from an economic perspective.

ISAACSON: That’s fascinating and that really struck me at the end of your documentary, which talks about baseball, but it’s also about society, America as a whole, and about civil rights in America, that double-edged sword of integration. Tell me about your probably complex emotions on that.

POLLARD: Well, here I am as a young black man in the ’60s, Walter, and what was I told as a young African American in ’64 or ’65? Forget about who you are, where you come from, become a part of the American melting pot and everything will be fine, right? Now, I bought that wholeheartedly. I bought it completely. It was only until my 20s that I realized that being American is very complicated. The history and the genesis of this country, which is based on enslaved people, based on the decimation of native people, it’s a long and complicated history. And as an African American who basically wants — as Sherman Hemsley would say, move on up, you know, and the Jeffersons, I had the same philosophy. But at what price? Everything is with the price. You know, so, it’s always complicated feelings when it’s like, you know, I live in Baltimore and I’m living in a part of the community that isn’t completely the black community and even though it’s close by. And it’s always a challenge to understand where you want to be and how you want to be and how you’re seeing yourself in this all American — in this notion of being an American.

ISAACSON: And so, baseball is always a metaphor for America?

POLLARD: For me, it is.

ISAACSON: Sam Pollard, thank you so much for joining us.

POLLARD: My pleasure, Walter. My pleasure.