New Doc: Ravish Kumar and the Threat to Free Speech in India

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Now, press freedom is in crisis in India. The world’s largest democracy is one of the worst countries for journalism according to the advocacy group, Reporters Without Borders. Now, a new documentary is now focusing on violence against journalists and politically partisan media. “While We –” it’s called “While We Watched,” and it follows veteran Indian news anchor, Ravish Kumar, as he speaks truth to power. And he joins Hari Sreenivasan alongside the director, Vinay Shukla, to discuss press freedoms in India.

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HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Vinay Shukla, Ravish Kumar, the documentary is called “While We Watched,” and it takes a look at the strains and struggles of your life, Ravij, as a journalist at NDTV, one of the last independent channels in India.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Every channel echoes. This is a big story. And nobody is running it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How dare you. We will murder you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In the absence of information, conversations will turn violent.

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SREENIVASAN: And specifically, they you were speaking out against what you perceive to be India’s increasing nationalism. So, I want to know what was the climate and is the climate in India today to be functioning as an independent journalist and what were the strains you were going through?

RAVISH KUMAR, SUBJECT, “WHILE WE WATCHED”: The climate war is very vicious. If you want to do journalism, you will find no single platform which allows you to raise a question as a journalist. And it started very quickly after 2014. When newsrooms were demolished in one go, and it was like that when command has appeared from the heaven and everybody is rushing to follow it. The message was very clear that the kind of journalism India — or Indian news channels were doing before 2014 have to be stopped. So, this media became — was pro people before 2014, and turn ND (ph) people after 2014. So, in this environment, I think NDTV had a very unique position. NDTV took a stand that the channel will never own profit from spreading hate and would convert (ph) about the may — and the owners and the (INAUDIBLE) faced a lot of legal cases against them. But still they tried very hard that we will do — we will try managed to save this platform when this crisis will pass.

SREENIVASAN: Vinay, why did you want to do this? You know, you’ve grown up watching Ravish Kumar in his long career. What made you think that this is the time that a film like this that is just watching, kind of almost a death of a newsroom, would be interesting to watch?

VINAY SHUKLA, DIRECTOR, “WHILE WE WATCHED”: I mean, honestly, you know, for a couple of years I had completely switched off from the news. I wasn’t watching anything, not even Ravish, not NDTV, because it would — watching the news would make me very anxious. And I would talk to my friends across the world, and a lot of people were switching off from the news, which I found to be very truly disturbing. You know, news, the system of public information, major system. We will come to the news to hopefully learn something about their lives that will help them make lead their lives better, make better choices. So, I had switched off from the news. And then, I remembered coming across one of Ravish’s broadcasts where unlike most popular news anchors who spent a lot of time telling their audiences that the audience is number one and we are here to serve you, Ravish was actually scolding his audiences. And saying, I don’t know why you’re still watching TV. You need to stop watching TV. And even if nobody watches my shows, I’m still going to say what I feel like saying. So, it seems like, you know, here was a news person who is not always questioning the government of the day and various governments but also his own audiences, and he was being very vulnerable. He was openly wondering if there was a space for his journalism in the world out there. I used to wonder if the people who are creating the news, who are working in the news business, if they feel the same anxiety that I do as a viewer. I was really — this film is a deep dive into the cost of the process of news that is being paid by the people who work within the news business.

SREENIVASAN: Ravish, we watch on multiple occasions in the film going away parties for your staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): It’s my last day today.

KUMAR (voiceover): Is there anyone left in your department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): A few of them are still hanging on.

SREENIVASAN: And I wonder, each time someone left, what was going through your mind? Because on the one hand, you want to support your colleagues and you wish them well, you want them to be able to earn a livelihood. And on the other hand, that’s one less important resource that you have to do what you think is necessary.

KUMAR: Hari, I became very lonely each year cake cutting ceremony. It was a very disheartening for me to send them off and celebrate their sending of the cake. I knew that I’m losing my best of colleagues, a kind of warriors who can deliver anything in this crisis situation with lesser resources. They were such telling tech (ph) people. It made me more lonely. And yes, many times it didn’t give — I used to think that the number is coming to me and my number will come one day and then, I will also go from this floor. And it happened. But it was very tough to do work without them. Nobody could replace them, yes. But we keep doing with few numbers of colleagues. They were very dedicated after that also. But it was always tough and emotionally very draining. It drains you out that you are losing your best colleague.

SREENIVASAN: Why do you think your broadcasts and you specifically were branded anti-nationalist? Because that’s a phrase that the ruling political party as well as other journalists in this spectrum of Indian media used fairly often as a critique?

KUMAR: Hari, the main reason is that, first, the Uraki (ph) said that they branded not only me but many people or activists, journalists as an anti-India. They knew that this man has some kind of credibility and he is doing the right kind of thing, raising their issues, and it could derail their communal propaganda or political propaganda. So, I became a definite target for them. I used to — they think that — they must be thinking that, let’s get rid — get him out from this channel. So, it was a very not easy for them to digest my — the kind of U.S. support I had. At that time also, so many thing happen, which is very still unknown to me. Many states — and my show, my channel disappeared from many cable networks in many states and I started getting calls that, your sound is coming but your visual video is not coming. Your video is coming but your sound is not coming. This kind of disturbances I used to have. So, I had fairly idea that they are worried about my numbers, my viewers and the kind of program I do. They were very clear that we do not want this kind of journalism in India anymore, which reflects people problems on television screen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): People here say that if you can’t even give us water then go ahead and kill us.

KUMAR (voiceover): No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): Let us die.

KUMAR (voiceover): No, you’ll fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): We are fighting but no one cares.

KUMAR (voiceover): Do you watch news?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): Yes, sir. We do.

KUMAR (voiceover): Do you see them address your issue?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voiceover): No. We want the truth. We want water. We are tired of running all over the place.

SREENIVASAN: Vinay, I want to ask, you document something that journalists talk about, which is the level of vitriol and hate and death threats that Ravish was constantly receiving. Were you, at any point while making this film, concerned for your safety, his safety?

SHUKLA: OK. So, the thing is, for example, Ravish — the trick, there was a very clear trick perception to him. He was to move around with an armed guard, right? So, that’s as real as it gets. And, you know, there are these moments with documentary films wherein you find yourself confronted with the sheer force at which ethical challenges in life is coming at you. You know, and those moments you feel like I should document this and then, I’ll come back with this later on and figure out how exactly I feel about this. But shooting this film for me, Hari, was also — you know, it put me face to face with what journalists across the world are going through every day. And I hope that people are able to watch this film and understand that this is what — that we are, in a sense, abandoned journalists, in many cases and in many countries. Because sooner than later, when we believe in one journalist, one organization, one government, sooner than later, one always makes a mistake. You know, that’s how — that’s the nature of the world. But it’s almost urgent that we will institutions that are much — that cater to many more people than just one. My constant ambition and constant — and, you know, hope from this film is that we have to understand and build better institutional practices for journalists across the world, especially in India.

SREENIVASAN: Ravish, what was the toll on your family?

KUMAR: Our family life was affected very much. We were not aware about these things are affecting our mental health, each one. So, we thought that our — we are getting less sleep. So, we are not well kept. That is why these panic attacks are happening. But later, we realized that mental health is completely devastated, wanting. We stopped going out as a family for dinner, for holiday, because I was staying in a hotel. And four or five people barge into my room, and they open — we were in the room and they started calling me with names and started debating with me. So, we had to leave that hotel next morning. So, these things started. Thinking in our — in thinking process that time is over for us to go together, time is over for us to travel by train. So — and the children were very — not very young. There were still growing and they were approaching — one was approaching her teen.

SREENIVASAN: Yes.

KUMAR: So, it affected her very badly. I had no family life. Now, I’m trying to — beginning to rebuild the concept of family life, which you are talking about.

SREENIVASAN: Vinay, what are the chances that this film is able to be screened in a theater in India?

SHUKLA: I don’t have a ready distributor in India yet, but I face difficulties on my last film as well, which — and then, I was able to release it in theaters, trying in theaters for many weeks. And I remain an optimist. I believe I’m going through a conversation that everybody wants to have and I hope to bring it to Indian audiences very soon. Because ultimately, while I’m very grateful for everything that’s happening with the film internationally, I made this film for my friends, for my cousins, for my family in India who I have a very, very heated political conversations with about the news.

SREENIVASAN: Yes.

SHUKLA: And then, I go like, all right. I can’t win you with my words, so I’m going to make a film and try to win this argument. So, just to be able to win that argument, (INAUDIBLE) I know that I lost last, year I need to get this film out in India.

SREENIVASAN: Ravish, when you see that the prime minister of India is received with open arms by the Biden ministration or that there’s parades for him in France, and you look out in India and you see that there are hundreds of millions of people who see the world as Prime Minister Modi does, why do you go forward or how do you think about the work that you are continuing to do and the impact you want to have?

KUMAR: Hari, yes, I can see Modi meeting Biden and Biden hugging Modi and Netanyahu hugging Macron and Macron hugging Netanyahu. Yes. These things, I do not expect Biden to come to India and solve the crisis of journalism. Yes, I can criticize those meetings, those diplomatic engagements on different counts that what he is going to offer, what India is going to get on that count, but I do not expect anything from Biden government and administration. This fight, yes, though the crisis of journalism resembles many parts of the world but the solution has to be very local. And I have to — I believe that if I keep doing this, if many people are — keep doing this, and thankfully, there are more devices now and they are taking their risk and doing very vocal about the government. They very vocal critic of this government. They are doing it.

SREENIVASAN: But what is your kind of mission going forward? Now, you chose to resign from NDTV after a billionaire took over the channel, the billionaire, you said, have close connections with Prime Minister Modi. Why did you choose to resign and what is your mission now?

KUMAR: It is a very clear who the new owner is going to be. So, the billionaire has multiple numbers of — millions of money. He can buy even any a channel on this earth, but he cannot give you a journalism, a space for journalism, a space to raise a question. He cannot allow to questions Narendra Modi. He may have a number of channels on — in his pocket, but he cannot create a journalism to question government of the day that I know. That was — it was very obvious for me that this is not a place where I should be. So, I left it. And my decision is getting approved, right, every day. This is a state of journalism in India. We have to talk about it. If we did not talk about this crisis, what this film is doing to, we are not going to make them aware. And I am sure that the script of this media is going to replicate and play out in other parts of the world very soon. Journalist have become criminals in India. We have to be very careful. If we are hopeful, we want to save our democracy, we need to talk about this dangerous place called media.

SREENIVASAN: Director Vinay Shukla and Journalist Ravish Kumar, the film is called “While We Watched,” thank you both for joining us.

KUMAR: Thank you, Hari.

SHUKLA: Thank you. Thank you for having us.