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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THERE ARE FEW ACTIONS AS CONSEQUENTIAL AS THE IMPEACHMENT OF A PRESIDENT.
THE FIRST FORMAL HEARINGS TAKE PLACE INTO THE IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
WE GET DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN TAKES ON WHAT WE HEARD TODAY.
> THE PEOPLE AT THE HEART OF THIS STORY, U.S. DIPLOMATS.
FORM IRU.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN UNION JOINS US.
PLUS, AS THE HEARINGS ENDER THIS PUBLIC SPACE, SOME PERSPECTIVE WITH JEFF GREENFIELD AND CARL BERNSTEIN.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS UNDER SCRUTINY NOW UNLIKE EVER BEFORE, AS CONGRESS LAUNCHES IMPEACHMENT INQUIRIES FOR THE FOURTH TIME IN U.S. HISTORY.
BEGINNING IN ERNEST TODAY, THE GOAL IS TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMP PRESSURED HIS UKRAINIAN COUNTERPART INTO INVESTIGATING JOE BIDEN AND TRUMP'S CLAIM THAT UKRAINE MEDDLED IN THE 2016 ELECTION.
FACING THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE IN THESE PUBLIC HEARINGS WERE GEORGE KENT.
THE DEPUTY ASSISTANT THE SECRETARY OF STATE.
AND BILL TAYLOR THE TOP U.S.
DIPLOMAT IN UKRAINE.
IN HIS TESTIMONY, TAYLOR REVEALED NEW INFORMATION THAT A STAFFER OVERHEARD A PHONE CALL BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO THE E.U. GORDON SONDLAND.
HE CALLED PRESIDENT TRUMP AND TOLD HIM OF HIS MEETINGS IN KIEV.
THE MEMBER OF MY STAFF COULD HEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THE PHONE ASKING ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIONS.
HE TOLD PRESIDENT TRUMP THE UKRAINIANS WERE READY TO MOVE FORWARD.
FOLLOWING THE CALL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE MEMBER OF MY STAFF ASKED WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP THOUGHT ABOUT UKRAINE.
PRESIDENT TRUMP CARES MORE ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIONS OF BIDEN, WHICH GIULIANI WAS PRESSING FOR.
FOR DEMOCRATS NOW, THIS PROCESS IS A MATTER OF U.S.
NATIONAL SECURITY AND UPHOLDING THE CONSTITUTION, FOR REPUBLICANS, IT IS A WITCH HUNT A COUP EVEN BEFORE TESTIMONY BEGAN.
THE REPUBLICAN RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE BROUGHT OUT THE REPUBLICAN DEFENSE TO DELEGITIMIZE THE PROCESS.
WHAT WE WILL WITNESS TODAY IS A TELEVISED THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE, STAGED BY THE DEMOCRATS.
AMBASSADOR TAYLOR AND MR. KENT, I'D LIKE TO WELCOME YOU HERE.
I'D LIKE TO CONGRATULATE YOU FOR PASSING THE DEMOCRATS STAR CHAMBER EDITIONS HELD FOR THE LAST WEEKS IN THE BASEMENT OF THE CAPITOL.
IT SEEMS YOU AGREED WITTING OR UNWITTINGLY TO PARTICIPATE IN A DRAMA.
THE MAIN PERFORMANCE, THE RUSSIA HOAX HAS ENDED AND YOU'VE BEEN CAST IN THE LOW RENT UKRAINIAN SEQUEL.
WELL, THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD A CHANCE TO HEAR AND SEE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS PROCESS, JOINING ME NOW IS MIKE ROGERS, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN AND CHAIR OF THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.
AND FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN WHO RECOMMENDED ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST NIXON.
LET ME START BY ASKING BOTH OF YOU HOW YOU THOUGHT THE PROCESS BEGAN.
YOU HEARD DIFFEREN NUNES SAY THIS WAS A GREAT DRAMA AND SOME KIND OF SOAP AP RAH.
LET ME ASK YOU.
IT IS THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS LEADING THIS PROCESS, HOW DO YOU THINK ADAM SCHIFF AND HIS FELLOW DEMOCRATS CAME OFF.
I THINK ADAM SCHIFF SOUNDED VERY JUDICIAL.
IN CONTROL, HE WAS SUCCINCT, HE WAS CLEAR, I THINK THE DEMOCRATS ON THE COMMITTEE ASKED GOOD QUESTIONS, THEY WERE SUCCINCT, THEY DIDN'T RAMBLE ON.
SO I THINK THEY HANDLED THEMSELVES VERY WELL.
I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, ADAM SCHIFF SAID IT HIMSELF, IT WAS CIVIL I REGRETTED AT THE BEGINNING MR. NUNES WAS REALLY SARCASTIC AND NASCY, HE WAS DISRESPECTFUL, I THINK TO THE WITNESSES.
AND THE IDEA OF CALLING THIS A RUSSIAN HOAX, PLEASE, WE HAVE NOT ONLY THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY OF THE UNITED STATES UNANIMOUSLY, INCLUDING MR.
POMPEO AGREEING WITH THAT, THAT THE RUSSIANS INTERFERED WITH OUR ELECTIONS IN 2016, BUT WE HAVE INDICTMENTS SITTING OUT AGAINST MORE THAN 20 RUSSIANS FOR INTERFERING IN THIS ELECTION.
SO FOR NUNES TO SAY RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IS A HOAX FOR THE PRESIDENT TO CALL THIS A HOAX, IT'S JUST NONSENSE.
I REGRET THAT PART OF IT, BUT I THINK IT WAS CIVIL, THE WITNESSES WERE VERY STRONG, AND THEY MADE A STRONG CASE THAT THE PRESIDENT ORDERED A HOLDUP OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO UKRAINE WHICH IS DESPERATELY NEEDED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE PERSONAL POLITICAL GAIN FOR HIMSELF.
LET ME TURN TO YOU MIKE RODGERS, REPUBLICAN AND FORMER HOUSE CLAIRE OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.
SO MUCH OF THIS RESOLVED AROUND FOREIGN POLICY.
TO START, DO YOU THINK IT WAS CIVIL, WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE TONE OF CIVILITY BY AND LARGE?
DO YOU THINK THE REPUBLICANS WERE SUCCESSFUL IN TRYING TO FOCUS ON THE WHISTLE BLOWER.
AND HOW DO YOU THINK THE WITNESSES COMPORTED THEMSELVES?
I'LL START WITH THE WITNESSES, YOU HAVE TWO CAREER DIPLOMATS WHO DID AN EXCEPTIONAL JOB, THEY NEVER SAID, I KNOW SOMETHING WHEN I DIDN'T.
THEY SAID I GOT IT BY INFERENCE OR A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE ELSE.
I THOUGHT ALL OF THAT SPOKE WELL OF THEIR SERVICE TO THEIR COUNTRY.
AND THEY CAME ACROSS VERY WELL.
I HAVE FOUND IN POLITICS, JUST ABOUT ANY TIME WHEN BOTH PARTIES ARE GOING AT IT, IT'S NEVER AS BAD AS ONE PARTY TELLS YOU OR AS GOOD AS THE OTHER PARTY WILL THINK YOU'LL HAVE IT.
I THINK THE TRUTH IS PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE, I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AS I THINK ELIZABETH WAS, THE TENOR AND TONE AT THE WITNESSES BY THE RANKING MEMBER.
I THOUGHT THAT WAS NOT CALLED FOR.
OTHER THAN THAT, IT WAS VERY CIVIL.
THE BURDEN HERE IS ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO SHOW THAT THIS RISES TO AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE I THINK NOW THE COMMON SET OF FACTS ARE THE PRESIDENT SAID IT, THE AMBASSADOR SAID THERE WAS A QUID PRO QUO ON TRYING TO GET THESE THINGS DONE.
ALL OF THAT IS THERE.
I THINK THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS OR MONTHS IS, DOES THAT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF IMPEACHMENT.
I DID NOT THINK TODAY GOT THEM THERE.
BECAUSE A LOT OF WHAT THE WITNESSES WERE TALKING ABOUT WERE HEARSAY EVIDENCE OR THEY RELIED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S CONVERSATION TO GET THAT THOUGHT AND PROCESS.
GREAT PROFESSIONALS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE TABLE AND BY MOST MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE.
I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT TONE AND TENOR TO DO THIS, BOTH SIDES ARE GOING TO HAVE A VIGOROUS DEFENSE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT PLAY OUT IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS AHEAD.
I WANT TO ASK ELIZABETH ABOUT SOME OF THE TESTIMONY, BILL TAYLOR, THE TOP RANKING U.S.
DIPLOMAT IN UKRAINE THESE DAYS, DESCRIBING THAT PHONE CALL AND HIMSELF BEING TOLD THAT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE INVESTIGATION INTO JOE BIDEN WAS MORE IMPORTANT.
THAT'S WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT FIRST ABOUT UKRAINE, THEN IN FACT THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE INVESTIGATION WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE MILITARY AID AND WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT UKRAINE FITTING INTO U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS AND IMPEACHABLE LEVEL ISSUES HERE?
WELL, I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE CRUX OF THE MATTER FOR THE DEMO DEMOCRATS AND THAT IS -- AND REALLY FOR EVERYONE HERE.
THE CRUX IS TO PER SITUATE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WHAT HAPPENED WASN'T JUST AN ISSUE INVOLVING UKRAINE OR SOME PLACE THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY, THIS REALLY AFFECTS US.
HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, THERE ARE THREE ASPECTS TO AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE.
ONE IS TREASON, THE SECOND IS BRIBERY, THE THIRD IS HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.
DURING THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT PROCESS, BASICALLY, WE SHOWED THAT THE DEFINITION OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS IS NOT THE COMMISSION OF A FELONY, NOT THE COMMISSION OF A MISDEMEANOR, NOT A VIOLATION OF THE CRIMINAL CODE, IT'S AN EGREGIOUS ABUSE OF POWER.
ONE OF THE WAYS THAT REALLY THREATENS OUR DEMOCRACY OR THE LIBERTIES OF AMERICANS, AND THAT'S WHERE THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO MOVE THIS.
THE WITNESSES AS MR. ROGERS SAID WERE VERY PROFESSIONAL, VERY DISTINGUISHED.
VERY CLEAR, BUT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES FOR UKRAINE.
HOW THIS HURT UKRAINE, AND THEN HOW IT HURT US.
I THINK THE ISSUE ABOUT HOW IT HURTS AMERICA AND WHAT THE DANGER IS OF A PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS LIKE THIS HAS TO BE BROUGHT HOME.
AND I DO BELIEVE IT WILL BE BROUGHT HOME.
YOU CAN'T HAVE A SITUATION WHERE EVERYONE SAYS, THIS IS POLITICS AS USUAL, OR EVERYONE DOES THIS, OR THIS IS JUST THE PRESIDENT'S CONCERN ABOUT CORRUPTION.
THAT'S REALLY NOT WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.
WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE, AND -- IS, DID THE PRESIDENT FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT, MANIPULATE, PERVERT, SUBVERT THE POLICIES AND THE -- THE STRENGTH OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO BENEFIT HIMSELF PERSONALLY.
AND TO INTERFERE WITH AN UPCOMING ELECTION.
WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE?
FREE ELECTIONS, WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE IS PRESIDENTIAL PERVERSION OF ABUSE OF POWER, AND WE GO BACK TO WATERGATE, THIS IS A REAL -- THERE'S AN ECHO HERE THAT I CAN'T RESIST MENTIONING.
WATERGATE WAS ABOUT THE COVER-UP IN WATER GATE, THAT WASN'T THE ONLY IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE, BUT THE COVER-UP WAS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S EFFORT TO GET RE-ELECTED TO PREVENT THE INFORMATION OF THE COVER-UP FROM COMING OUT SO HE COULD WIN AN ELECTION.
NIXON -- PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST HIM BECAUSE HE WANTED TO WIN AT ALL COSTS.
THE ISSUE IS, DID DONALD TRUMP, AND I BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THIS, AT ANY COST, DID HE USE THE POWER OF HIS PRESIDENCY TO GET HIMSELF RE-ELECTED?
THESE ARE SIMILARITIES WE CAN'T IGNORE.
LET ME PLAY THIS SOUND BITE BY BILL TAYLOR.
HE'S DESCRIBING THE MEMO HE WROTE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF WITHHOLDING AID OR WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
AS THE COMMITTEE IS AWARE, I WROTE THAT WITHHOLDING SECURITY ASSISTANCE IN EXCHANGE FOR HELP WITH A DOMESTIC POLITICAL CAMPAIGN IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE CRAZY.
I BELIEVED THAT THEN, AND I BELIEVE IT NOW.
I WANT TO ASK YOU, MIKE RODGERS, HE BELIEVES THERE WAS SUCH AN EXCHANGE.
AND YOU HEARD DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN, JOAQUIN KAGS ELECTROASK A VERY POINTED QUESTION ABOUT BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION OR ATTEMPTED BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION.
HE KEPT TRYING TO GET THE WITNESS TO SAY, WOULD ATTEMPTED MURDER BE A CRIME.
WOULD ATTEMPTED BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION BE A CRIME.
HE WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT WHAT BILL TAYLOR IS SAYING, WITHHOLDING AID IN RETURN FOR THESE INVESTIGATIONS IS CORRUPTING THE PROCESS.
HOW DO YOU READ THAT, AND WOULD THAT NOT BE A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR?
WELL, BRIBERY CLEARLY IS A VERY CLEAR VIOLATION OF AN OFFICE HOLDER THAT WOULD RISE TO THE LEVEL OF IMPEACHMENT.
I THINK THEY'RE A LONG WAY FROM PROVING THE ELEMENTS OF BRIBERY.
I THINK IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE.
I DON'T THINK THE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE DONE IT, WHAT YOU SAW TODAY WERE THE REPUBLICANS TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE THAT HE WAS BASICALLY TRYING TO POINT OUT ISSUES OF CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE, AND THE SHEER LEVEL OF IT, THAT MAY HAVE RISEN ALL THE WAY BACK TO ANOTHER POLITICAL FIGURE BACK HERE, THAT'S THEIR ARGUMENT, AND SO THAT'S WHY I THINK THE HEARING ITSELF HAS TO RISE TO THIS LEVEL OF AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE.
TODAY I DON'T THINK THEY GOT THERE.
WHAT WAS DISTURBING TO ME TODAY WAS THIS NOTION AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THERE WAS A DUAL TRACK, SECONDARY DIPLOMATIC EFFORT THAT -- YOU KNOW, YOU LOST ME AT DUAL TRACK.
THERE'S NOTHING GOOD THAT'S GOING TO COME FROM THAT.
AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENS, THIS IS A TRAIN WRECK, AND IT WAS A TRAIN WRECK DISTEND TO HAPPEN.
I THINK WHAT YOU HEARD FROM AMBASSADOR TAYLOR SPECIFICALLY IS, HE KIND OF KNEW THAT, I KIND OF KNEW THIS WAS A PROBLEM.
I TRIED TO WHISPER THIS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.
I GUESS IT WAS OKAY WHEN IT WAS WORKING IN THE SAME DIRECTION AS U.S. RECOGNIZED POLICY IN UKRAINE.
BUT WHEN IT CAREENED OFF THE TRACKS, THAT'S WHEN ALL THE TROUBLE STARTED.
NOW I WOULD ARGUE, WAS THAT MAYOR GIULIANI SCREENING IT OFF THE TRACKS.
WAS IT BECAUSE OF MISCOMMUNICATION?
ALL OF THAT HAS TO BE GONE THRU, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK SONDLAND'S TESTIMONY WHO IS A PART OF THAT, ON THE PHONE CALL, WHO WAS A PART OF ALL THOSE ACTIVITIES IS GOING TO BE REALLY IMPORTANT NEXT WEEK, HE'S THE CENTERPIECE OF ALL THOSE CONVERSATIONS, HE'LL BE UP NEXT WEEK IN CONGRESS I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE FASCINATING.
LET US PLAY THIS PIECE OF BILL TAYLOR'S TESTIMONY REGARDING THE IRREGULAR TRACK.
THERE APPEAR TO BE TWO CHANNELS OF U.S. POLICY MAKING AND IMPLEMENTATION, ONE REGULAR, AND ONE HIGHLY IRREGULAR.
AS THE ACTING AMBASSADOR I HAD AUTHORITY OVER THE REGULAR.
INCLUDING THE BULK OF THE U.S.
EFFORT TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND HELP IT DEFEAT CORRUPTION AT THE SAME TIME I ENCOUNTERED AN IRREGULAR INFORMAL CHANNEL WITH REGARD TO POLICY MAKING.
UNACCOUNTABLE TO CONGRESS, A CHANNEL THAT INCLUDED THEN SPECIAL ENVOY KURT ROE VOLKER, SECRETARY OF ENERGY RICK PERRY WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MICK MULVANEY, AND AS I SUBSEQUENTLY LEARNED, MR. GIULIANI.
THERE HE IS, BASICALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE JUST POINTING OUT.
I WANT TO NOW PLAY THE RESPONSE AND THE QUESTIONING BY JIM J JORDAN TRYING TO POKE HOLES IN BILL TAYLOR'S AUTHENTIC KNOWLEDGE OF ALL OF THIS.
YOU WEREN'T ON THE CALL, WERE YOU?
YOU DIDN'T LISTEN IN ON THE CALL?
I DID NOT.
YOU NEVER TALKED WITH CHIEF OF STAFF MULVANEY IN.
NO, I DIDN'T.
YOU NEVER MET THE PRESIDENT?
THAT'S CORRECT.
YOU HAD TWO CONVERSATIONS --
AND TWO OF THOSE THEY NEVER HEARD ABOUT, AS FAR AS I KNOW.
THIS IS WHAT I CAN'T BELIEVE, AND YOU'RE THEY'RE STAR WITNESS, YOU'RE THEY'RE FIRST WITNESS.
ELIZABETH, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WENT DOWN.
DID THAT LAND A PUNCH.
THEY ARE GOING VERY VERY DIRECTLY AND PART OF THEIR DEFENSES, THAT NEITHER OF THESE TWO WITNESSES WERE ON THE CALL.
THEY USED THE CALL AS A CENTERPIECE OF THEIR DEFENSE SO TO SPEAK.
BUT SAYING THAT.
DID THAT LAND A PUNCH IN YOUR VIEW?
WELL, IT LANDED A PARTIAL PUNCH, BUT YOU SEE, I THINK THERE'S MORE TO THE STORY.
THE STORY ISN'T JUST THE PHONE CALL, THE PHONE CALL MAY BE THE CENTERPIECE, YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PHONE CALL, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND IT.
AND I THINK THE POINT HE'S TRYING TO MAKE, JORDAN, WHICH I THINK IS INCORRECT AS A HISTORICAL MATTER AND A LEGAL MATTER, SOMEHOW BECAUSE THE AID WAS RELEASED, BECAUSE ZIELINSKI SAID HE NEVER FELT PRESSURE.
THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE.
BUT AN ATTEMPT, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CONGRESSMAN CASTRO BROUGHT OUT, I'M GOING TO RELATE IT AGAIN TO THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT THAT WERE VOTED IN WATERGATE.
CASTRO SAID IF HE ATTEMPTED THESE THINGS AND DIDN'T SUCCEED, ISN'T THAT ATTEMPTED BRIBERY OR EXTORTION?
I WANT TO GO TO SOME OF THE EXAMPLES FROM WATERGATE.
WHERE THE PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON IS WHERE RICHARD NIXON ORDERED THINGS TO BE DONE.
THE IRS SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT.
BUT THAT ORDER TO USE THE IRS TO DO HARASSING AUDITS OF PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT WAS A GROUND FOR THE IMPEACHMENT.
THE OFFENSE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE COMPLETED.
. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A DEAD BODY AT THE END OF THIS.
THE ONLY IMPEACHMENT THAT EVER SUCCEEDED AND THE ONLY ONE THAT'S NEVER BEEN ATTACKED FOR IMPROP IMPROPRIETIES IS AGAINST RICHARD NIXON.
YOU DON'T NEED A COMPLETED CRIME.
IF THE PRESIDENT ISSUED ORDERS THAT THEMSELVES WERE AN ABUSE OF POWER, THAT SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
AND I THINK THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM IS, THAT THIS IS A COMMITTEE THAT'S DOING TWO THINGS AT ONCE.
IT'S TRYING TO ASCERTAIN THE FACTS AND IT'S ALSO UP AGAINST A BACKGROUND WHERE PEOPLE DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK IS.
SOME OF THESE ITEMS WILL HIT HOME FOR THE MOMENT, THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE RAISING, OVER THE LONG RUN WHEN THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK IS OUT THERE, AND ALL THE FACTS ARE OUT, THE DEMOCRATS WILL BE ABLE TO PRESENT A MUCH STRONGER CASE.
SOME OF THE KEY EVIDENCE HERE IS NOT ONLY FROM MR. SUNDLAND BUT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF AND HIS TOP AIDS.
HE'S INSTRUCTED EVERYBODY IN THE GOVERNMENT NOT TO COOPERATE WITH THE INVESTIGATION, AND NOT TO TURN OVER DOCUMENTS.
SOME OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT THESE WITNESSES HAD WERE BEING HELD BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND REFUSED TO BE TURNED OVER.
THAT'S NOT RIGHT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HURT THE PRESIDENT IN THIS PROCESS NOW.
I WANT TO PLAY SOMETHING THAT GEORGE KENT TALKED ABOUT.
THE WHOLE SORT OF HEART OF THIS, OR SOME OF THE HEART OF IT IS THE ISSUE OF THE UKRAINIAN ENERGY COMPANY AND WHAT WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT'S SON DOING SITTING ON THE BOARD OF THIS COMPANY.
MANY PEOPLE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, INCLUDING THE ASSISTANT THE SECRETARY OF STATE HERE.
LET'S PLAY WHAT HE HAD TO SAY ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN ON THE BOARD.
I BECAME AWARE THAT HUNTER BIDEN WAS ON THE BOARD OF BARISMA.
SOON AFTER THAT, I RAISED MY CONCERN THAT HUNTER BIDEN'S PRESENCE OF A BOARD MEMBER COULD CREATE THE PERCEPTION OF INTEREST.
IT IS THE TEN TON ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
THIS IS, AS HE SAID, THE APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, WE HAVE TO SAY THAT NO WRONGDOING HAS BEEN DISCOVERED.
AND THAT BARISMA PEOPLE WERE INVESTIGATED AND THEY WERE HELD TO ACCOUNT THE CORRUPTION IN THAT COMPANY.
BUT MIKE RODGERS, HOW MUCH OF A FACT, A WEAPON, A RELEVANT POINT IS THIS FOR THE REPUBLICANS AND FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SIDE.
WELL, I MEAN, I THINK IT POINTS OUT THAT THERE WERE SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES.
CLEARLY HUNTER BIDEN MIGHT BE A FINE GENTLEMAN, I DON'T KNOW HIM, HE WASN'T QUALIFIED TO SIT ON AN INTERNATIONAL ENERGY BOARD.
PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS, AS THE AMBASSADOR POINTED OUT.
THIS WAS A SKETCHY COMPANY.
AND IT HAD OTHER CORRUPTION PROBLEMS SURROUNDING IT.
AND THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS THERE A MATTER OF 7 OR 8 TIMES.
I FORGET THE EXACT NUMBER.
THAT'S WHAT LED THE AMBASSADOR TOO GO TO THE VICE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE AND SAY, THIS DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.
THAT'S A PROBLEM, THERE'S AS A MATTER OF FACT I THINK VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, I WOULDN'T DO THAT THE NEXT GO AROUND.
AND OTHER LEADING DEMOCRATS AGREED, THAT WAS INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR.
THIS PLACE IS A MESS, IT'S A CESSPOOL.
AND THE PRESIDENT WAS JUST TRYING TO CLEAN UP THE MESS.
AGAIN, DOES IT GET THERE OR NOT, THIS IS THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, THIS IS REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS TALKING TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
IT'S NOT A RULE OF EVIDENCE, THIS IS, CAN I SCORE SOME POLITICAL POINTS HERE TO WIN THE DAY FOR IMPEACHMENT, OR CAN I SLOW DOWN WITH A FEW POLITICAL POINTS OF IMPEACHMENT.
WHAT I FEAR IS THAT THIS IS GOING TO SPLIT AMERICA, THERE ARE 60 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR THIS PRESIDENT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SPLIT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS HERE, THAT'S WHAT I WORRY ABOUT.
THERE'S A LOT OF POLITICS THAT CAN GO INTO ANY IMPEACHMENT PROCESS, I HOPE THEY GET THIS RIGHT.
I HOPE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AT THE END OF IT FEEL LIKE THIS WAS A FAIR AND JUST PROCESS TO GET TO WHATEVER CONCLUSION THEY COME TO, IF NOT, YOU'RE GOING TO TEAR THIS, THE FABRIC OF A COUNTRY FOR A LONG TIME.
THE TIME IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO HEAL.
NO DOUBT, I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, EQUALLY ALARMING IS WHAT THIS MEANS TO U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY AND BILL TAYLOR BROUGHT THIS UP, ABOUT HIS ASTONISHMENT THAT THOSE WERE HIS WORDS WHEN HE UNDERSTOOD THAT AID TO A VITAL ALLY AGAINST A MASSIVE ADVERSARY WAS BEING HELD UP FOR WHAT HE SAYS IS HIS POLITICAL REASON.
SO LET US PLAY THIS PART OF THE TESTIMONY.
IN A REGULAR CONFERENCE CALL ON JULY 18th, I HEARD A STAFF PERSON FROM THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET SAY THERE WAS A HOLD ON ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE.
BUT COULD NOT SAY WHY.
TOWARD THE END OF A NORMAL MEETING A VOICE ON THE CALL, THE PERSON WAS OFF-SCREEN SAID THAT SHE WAS FROM OMB AND HER BOSS HAD INSTRUCTED HER NOT TO APPROVE ANY ADDITIONAL SPENDING ON SECURITY SYSTEMS FOR UKRAINE, UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
I AND OTHERS SAT IN ASTO ASTONISHMENT.
UKRAINIANS WERE FIGHTING RUSSIANS AND COUNTED ON NOT ONLY THE TRAINING AND WEAPONS, BUT THE ASSURANCE OF U.S. SUPPORT.
ALL THAT THE OMB STAFF PERSON SAID WAS, THE DIRECTIVE HAD COME FROM THE PRESIDENT.
TO THE CHIEF OF STAFF, TO OMB.
IN AN INSTANT I REALIZED ONE OF THE KEY SUPPORTERS FOR UKRAINE WAS THREATENED.
THE THE CHANNEL WAS RUNNING KRON TRARRY TO THE GOALS OF LONGSTANDING U.S. POLICY.
FROM BOTH OF YOU, I REALLY NEED A SHORT ANSWER.
THAT IS AT THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE AS WELL.
I MEAN, IT'S NOT JUST POLITICS AND PROCESSES, IT'S REALLY ABOUT SUBSTANCE AND WHAT KEEPS AMERICA SAFE AND AMERICA'S INTERESTS SAFE.
HOW MUCH DOES THAT WORRY YOU, MIKE.
YEAH, I THINK IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO USE FUNDING IN THE MILITARY.
PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE IT FOR THEIR OWN SETS OF REASONS, I THOUGHT THIS WAS INNING APPROPRIATE AT BEST.
ELIZABETH, DO YOU HAVE A -- HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE SECURITY ASPECT OF THIS?
WELL, OF COURSE, IT CREATES AN INSECURITY FOR THE UNITED STATES IN THE END, IF UKRAINE HAS TO BUCKLE UNDER RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
AND WE'RE JUST SAYING, WELL, LISTEN, WE DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT YOU, WE CARE ABOUT THESE INVESTIGATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO HELP ME, DONALD TRUMP IN MY RE-ELECTION, I MEAN, I THINK THEY'RE VERY SERIOUS SECURITY ISSUES HERE, I THINK THE CRITICAL THING FOR AMERICANS TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT JUST AN ISSUE OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND OUR STRENGTH VIS-A-VIS RUSSIA IN THE WORLD.
BUT IT'S ALSO A QUESTION OF WHAT KIND OF DEMOCRACY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE, IS THE PRESIDENT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER THE LAWS, LAWS AGAINST IMPOUNDMENTS OF MONEY.
LAWS PROHIBITING HIM FROM USING GOVERNMENT FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL WELL BEING AND PERSONAL GAIN.
WHAT KIND OF DEMOCRACY ARE WE GOING TO HAVE?
IS THE CONGRESS GOING TO TAKE THE POWERS THAT WERE GIVEN TO IT BY THE FRAMERS AND MAKE SURE THAT OUR DEMOCRACY HOLDS.
THAT'S THE CRITICAL THING HERE.
BOTH OF YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
NOW, LET US GET TO WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF THIS IMPEACHMENT.
UKRAINE AND U.S. DIPLOMATS WORKING THERE.
AMERICA'S TOP DIPLOMAT IN UKRAINE, BILL TAYLOR AS WE SAID, HOW THE NARRATIVE OF THIS IMPEACHMENT FRAMES THE COUNTRY ITSELF.
THERE ARE TWO UKRAINE STORIES TODAY.
THE FIRST IS THE ONE WE'RE DISCUSSING THIS MORNING THAT YOU'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT FOR THE PAST TWO WEEKS, IT'S A RANK ROUSE STORY ABOUT WHISTLE BLOWERS.
MR. GIULIANI, SIDE CHANNELS, QUID PROQUOS, IN THIS STORY, UKRAINE IS MERELY AN OBJECT.
BUT THERE'S ANOTHER STORY.
A POSITIVE BIPARTISAN ONE.
IN THIS SECOND STORY, UKRAINE IS THE SUBJECT.
THIS ONE IS ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE IN A YOUNG NATION STRUGGLING TO BREAK FREE OF ITS PAST, HOPEFUL THAT THEIR NEW GOVERNMENT WILL FINALLY USHER IN A NEW UKRAINE, PROUD OF ITS INDEPENDENCE FROM RUSSIA, EAGER TO JOIN WESTERN INSTITUTIONS AND ENJOY A MORE SECURE AND PROSPEROUS LIFE.
THIS STORY DESCRIBES A NATION DEVELOPING AN INCLUSIVE DEMOCRATIC NATIONALISM.
NOT UNLIKE WHAT WE IN AMERICA, IN OUR BEST MOMENTS FEEL ABOUT OUR DIVERSE COUNTRY.
LET'S GET INTO WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR THIS DEMOCRACY, HOW IT'S VITAL TO U.S. FOREIGN POLICY INTERESTS AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR GEORGE KENT AND BILL TAYLOR TO COME FORWARD.
JOINING ME NOW IS ANTHONY GARDNER.
WELL TO THE PROGRAM.
AND, OF COURSE, YOU HELD THE POSITION THAT AMBASSADOR SONDLAND HOLDS NOW, HE WILL BE TESTIFYING NEXT WEEK.
AND THAT AS WE HEARD MIKE RODGERS SAY, WILL BE THE CENTERPIECE.
HE WAS ON THE CALL.
HE HAD SO MUCH -- HE IS THE GO BETWEEN IN ALL OF THESE CONVERSATIONS TO DIPLOMATS AND TO THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENCY.
SO LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, YOU'RE A DIPLOMAT.
WHEN SOMEBODY LIKE GEORGE KENT OR BILL TAYLOR OR WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE, WHEN YOU GO ABOUT YOUR WORK, WHAT ARE YOUR FIRST THOUGHTS?
I MEAN, DO YOU EXPECT THERE TO BE POLITICS INVOLVED?
WELL, MY JOB WAS TO REPRESENT AMERICAN INTERESTS BEFORE THE EU INSTITUTIONS, THE EYES AND EARS AND THE VOICE OF AMERICA.
MY JOB WAS EU FOCUSED, I TRAVELLED TO 16 OF THE 28 EU MEMBER STATES.
PRINCIPALLY TRADE.
I CONSIDERED GOING TO UKRAINE, BUT I NEVER DID, BECAUSE WE HAD A BIG EMBASSY THERE, WE HAD A VERY GOOD AMBASSADOR AT THE TIME.
I DID, A FEW WEEKS AFTER THOSE HISTORIC EVENTS WHEN THERE WAS THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA.
I DECIDED NOT TO GO, BECAUSE I COULDN'T JUSTIFY IT, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A GOOD USE OF TAXPAYER MONEY.
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, MY JOB WAS SINGLE MINDED.
HOW DO I REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES WELL BEFORE THE EU.
AND HOW DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE SAYING AND FUNNEL IT BACK TO WASHINGTON?
COULD YOU HAVE EVER IMAGINED A DUAL CHANNEL, AN IRREGULAR CHANNEL OF ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE FROM THE SAME ADMINISTRATION WORKING APPARENTLY IN DIFFERENT TRACKS?
NO WAY, NO HOW.
WHEN I TRAVEL TO THOSE 16 MEMBER STATES, I ALWAYS DID IT WITH THE PERMISSION OF THE SITTING AMBASSADOR IN THAT COUNTRY.
AND I NEVER EVER EVER TALKED ABOUT BILATERAL ISSUES.
THAT RELATED TO THAT COUNTRY.
FOR A SIMPLE REASON.
DIPLOMATIC COURTESY, EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, IT WAS TO ENSURE THAT THAT COUNTRY WASN'T LEFT IN SOME KIND OF UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHO WAS SPEAKING FOR AND REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES.
NO IRREGULAR CHANNELS.
I'M PRETTY SURE NONE OF MY DISTINGUISHED PREDECESSORS WOULD CONSIDER DOAK THAT.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE SOUND BITE FROM GEORGE KENT WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE A FREE AND INDEPENDENT UKRAINE.
LET'S PLAY WHAT HE SAID.
THE UNITED STATES HAS VERY CLEAR NATIONAL INTEREST AT STAKE IN UKRAINE.
UKRAINE'S SUCCESS IS VERY MUCH IN OUR NATIONAL INTEREST.
IN THE WAY WE HAVE DEFINED OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS BROADLY FOR THE PAST 75 YEARS, AFTER WORLD WAR II, U.S. LEADERSHIP INCLUDED THE MARSHALL PLAN IN A RULES BASED NATIONAL ORDER.
PROTECTED BY THE COLLECTIVE SECURITY PROVIDED BY NATURE TOE, WESTERN EUROPE RECOVERED AND THRIVED.
AFTER THE CARNAGE OF WORLD WAR II, NOTWITHSTANDING THE SHADOW OF THE IRON CURTAIN.
EU EUROPE'S SECURITY AND PROSPERITY, CONTRIBUTED TO OUR SECURITY AND PROSPERITY.
SUPPORT OF UKRAINE'S SUCCESS FITS SQUARELY INTO OUR STRATEGY FOR CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE, SINCE THE FALL OF THE WALL 30 YEARS AGO THIS PAST WYCHE.
A EUROPE TRULY WHOLE, FREE AND AT PEACE, OUR STRATEGIC GAME FOR THE ENTIRETY OF MY SERVICE CAREER IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT A UKRAINE WHOLE, FREE AND AT PEACE.
BILL TAYLOR TESTIFIED THAT IF THIS AIDE HAD BEEN ENDLESSLY HELD UP AND IT HADN'T GOT TO UKRAINE.
WHICH WE KNOW IT DID IN THE END.
THE RUSSIANS WOULD BE LAUGHING.
THIS WOULD PLAY RIGHT INTO THEIR PLAYBOOK FOR UKRAINE AND FOR BASICALLY WESTERN INSTI TUGSZS AS WELL.
ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S AN INCREDIBLE STATEMENT.
UKRAINE, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY DESERVES TO BE TREATED ON ITS MERITS.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT COUNTRY.
AND CRITICAL TO OUR PIE AN SECURITY AND VALUES.
I STILL REMEMBER THOSE IMAGES OF UKRAINIANS FROM EVERY WALK OF LIFE, BRAVING THE COLD AND DEATH, TO WAVE THE EUROPEAN FLAG, SAYING, WE WANT TO BE PART OF THE EUROPEAN FAMILY WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM THAT TESTIMONY, IS THAT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY WAS TO SAY, YOU DESERVE IT, WE WILL SUPPORTS YOU, AND WE WILL DO WHATEVER WE CAN.
THE IDEA, EVEN THE IDEA THAT WE WOULD SOMEHOW BARTER AWAY THOSE PRINCIPLES FOR DOMESTIC POLITICAL PARTY CONCERNS IS TROUBLING.
NOT FOR A SINGLE SECOND DID I EVER THINK I WAS REPRESENTING A NARROW SET OF POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS.
I WAS APPOINTED BY A PRESIDENT WHO WAS DEMOCRATIC, PRESIDENT OBAMA.
I'M SURE MY PREDECESSORS WOULD AGREE WITH ME, WE WERE REPRESENTING THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, RED AND BLUE.
TELL ME THEN.
YOU SAID RIGHT AS, MAYBE A LITTLE AFTER RUSSIA INVADED EASTERN UKRAINE.
AND IT STILL STANDS.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND NOW FAMOUSLY JOE BIDEN WAS ON THE ANTI-CORRUPTION HUNT IN UKRAINE.
WHAT WAS THE IMPULSE.
WHAT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IN ITS RELATIONS WITH UKRAINE.
HOW DID THIS ANTI-CORRUPTION HUNT GO.
THIS HAS BEEN AN INTEREST OF MANY, MANY PARTIES, DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN OVER MANY YEARS TO SAY, GOOD GOVERNANCE, ANTI-CORRUPTION IS IMPORTANT, IF YOU HAVE CORRUPTION AND POOR GOVERNANCE, AT LEAST A LOT OF OTHER -- MORE SERIOUS ISSUES, COUNTRIES CAN FALL APART, DEGENERATE.
WE THOUGHT IT WAS AN INTEREST FOR UKRAINE AND THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE TO SUPPORT ANTI-CORRUPTION.
TRANSPARENCY.
AND WHAT WOULD YOU SAY AS A FORMER DIPLOMAT YOURSELF, AND YOU SEE HOW -- YOU'VE HEARD THE TESTIMONY, YOU'VE SEEN HOW MARIE WAS FIRED FROM HER POSITION, HOW DIPLOMATS HAVE COME UNDER A HUGE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE, AND PERHAPS NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION FROM THEIR OWN STATE DEPARTMENT, AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.
HOW HAVE YOU READ THAT, AND WHAT EFFECT IS THAT GOING TO HAVE ON DIPLOMATS IN THE FUTURE.
NOT JUST THOSE WILLING TO GO OR TAKE INSTRUCTIONS TO GO TO VARIOUS POSTINGS, BUT TO DO WHAT THEY ARE MANDATED TO DO, WHEN THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT THEY BELIEVE IS WRONG, THEY NEED TO REPORT IT UP THE CHAIN, WHICH IS WHAT THEY DID, AND THEN IOVANOVICH GOT FIRED.
EXACTLY, IT'S DEBILITATING.
THESE PEOPLE GET MOVED AROUND A LOT.
THEY DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED AND TO HAVE A STATE DEPARTMENT THAT LOOKS AT THEIR INTERESTS AND PROMOTES THEM, RIGHT?
THEY ARE A FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE, EVEN OUR MILITARY UNDERSTANDS THIS OUR DIPLOMATS ARE FIRST AND BEST LINE OF DEFENSE.
WHEN THEY DON'T FUNCTION, BAD THINGS HAPPEN.
WE PAY THE PRICE IN GOLD AND BLOOD.
I THINK IT'S DEBILITATING FOR THE LONG TERM.
WE NEED GOOD DIPLOMATS THAT ARE SKILLED AND ABLE TO REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES ABROAD.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REACTION TODAY TO THESE HEARINGS IN THE PUBLIC TESTIMONY.
HE WAS AT A PRESS CONFERENCE WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN OF TURKEY.
HE WAS ASKED ABOUT HIS REACTION.
WE'LL JUST PLAY IT FOR YOU.
IT'S A JOKE.
I HAVEN'T WATCHED.
I HAVEN'T WATCHED FOR ONE MINUTE, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN WITH THE PRESIDENT WHICH IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.
THIS IS A SHAM.
AND SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.
IT'S A --
HE CALLED IT A WITCH HUNT AGAIN AND OBVIOUSLY HE'S QUITE UPSET ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON OPINION HE IS ALSO MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN WHO WAS THE LAST BIG CRISIS TO FACE PRESIDENT TRUMP.
HE'S BEEN ACCUSED OF GREEN LIGHTING ERDOGAN'S INVASION INTO SYRIA AND HE'S BEING HELD -- TRUMP HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY HIS OWN PARTY FOR ABANDONING KEY U.S. ALLIES IN SYRIA, THE KURDS, I WANT TO KNOW FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF TRADE.
HE HAS SAID A TRADE DEAL IS STILL ON THE TABLE FOR PRESIDENT ERDOGAN.
AND WAS SIMILAR TO WHAT HE WAS GOING TO OFFER -- THAT DIDN'T STOPPER DOE WAN FROM GOING INTO SYRIA.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.
I HAVE NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF THAT NEGOTIATION OCCURRING.
IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE THE FRIENDS THAT THIS PRESIDENT KEEPS AND THE ENEMIES HE KEEPS.
YOU CAN JUDGE MANY THINGS IN LIFE BASED ON THE FRIENDS AND ENEMIES YOU HAVE.
THE PEOPLE WE CONSIDER TO NOT SCORE AS WELL IN DEMOCRACY AND TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNANCE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
ANTHONY GARDINER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.
NOW, AS THE HEARINGS DEVELOP, THERE WAS TALK OF PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO PUBLICLY BOX IN THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT.
AGAIN BILL TAYLOR TOP U.S.
DIPLOMAT REVEALING A PLAN FOR PRESIDENT ZELINSKY TO PUBLICLY ANNOUNCE INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE BIDENS AND THE ALLEGED UKRAINIAN MEDDLING IN 2016.
AMBASSADOR SONDLAN SAID HE TALKED TO MR. YERMOCK AND TOLD THEM THIS WAS NOT A QUID PRO QUO, IF PRESIDENT ZELINSKY DID NOT CLEAR THINGS UP IN PUBLIC, WE WOULD BE AT A STALEMATE.
I UNDERSTAND A STALEMATE TO MEAN THAT UKRAINE WOULD NOT RECEIVE THE MUCH NEEDED MILITARY ASSISTANCE, AMBASSADOR SONDLAND SAID THIS CONVERSATION ENDED WITH PRESIDENT ZELINSKY AGREEING TO MAKE A PUBLIC STATEMENT ON CNN.
MY NIGHTMARE IS THE THEY, UKRAINIANS GIVE THE INTERVIEW AND DON'T GET THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE.
THE RUSSIANS LOVE IT, AND I QUIT, AND I WAS SERIOUS.
THAT'S A LOT TO DIGEST.
LET'S GET SOME PERSPECTIVE.
JOINING US NOW IS JEFF GREENFIELD WHO'S INVESTIGATION LED TO THE PROCEEDINGS AGAINST RICHARD NIXON.
GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE A LOT OF THIS IS ABOUT THE COVERAGE AND WHAT THE PRESS FOCUSES ON, AND WHAT STORIES GET TOLD.
I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST, CARL, YOU'VE WRITTEN A MEMO ABOUT THE WARNINGS.
HOW HAS THIS STORY BEEN COVERED TODAY DO YOU THINK IN TERMS OF THE SUBSTANCE THAT'S HAD THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF FOCUS?
I'M UNCLEAR, YOU MEAN, WHAT WE WATCHED TODAY ON AMERICAN TELEVISION AND HOW IT WAS PRESENTED ON THE NETWORK?
THERE YOU GO.
OKAY.
I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO WATCH THE EVENT TAKE PLACE IN REALTIME.
THERE WAS NOT TOO MUCH ANALYSIS UNTIL IT WAS ALL OVER.
WHAT WE SAW WAS VERY DAMNING IN TERMS OF BUILDING A CASE AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
BUT IT ALSO TAKES PLACE IN -- WE'RE HAVING A COLD CIVIL WAR IN THE UNITED STATES.
AND WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO MOVE PEOPLE FROM THEIR HELD POSITIONS, THOSE WERE INDEPENDENTS AND REPUBLICANS MIGHT BE WILLING TO MOVE AGAINST THE PRESIDENT.
WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, WE HAVE A COUPLE MORE WEEKS OF HEARINGS HERE.
ONE THING I THINK IS, THAT VERY MUCH TODAY'S PROCEEDINGS WERE WATCHED BY THE SENATORS.
AND THEY ARE THE ALL IMPORTANT AUDIENCE ON CAPITOL HILL RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE'S CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT THEY WOULD NOT CONVICT THIS PRESIDENT.
THERE ARE MANY REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO DO NOT LIKE DONALD TRUMP.
THEY'RE VERY DISTURBED BY HIS CONDUCT.
THEY THINK HE'S UNSTABLE, MANY OF THEM.
AND THE EVIDENCE IS DAMNING, AND IF ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO ARE REPUBLICANS CITIZENS START TO BREAK WITH THE PRESIDENT.
THESE SENATORS WILL TAKE NOTICE, BUT WE'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO BOTH IN TERMS OF MORE EVIDENCE AND HOW THE PROCEEDINGS GO ON IN HOUSE.
AND JEFF, TO YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE COVERED THESE ISSUES FOR SO LONG, AND YOU'VE WITNESSED THEM AND COMMENTED ON THEM AS WELL, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY DIVISIVE TIME IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S MORE POLARIZED THAN IT'S EVER BEEN, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE SO STARKLY DIVIDED.
IT'S REALLY SILOED IN TERMS OF WHO BELIEVES WHAT.
AND THE TRUTH HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED AND POLITICIZED.
WHAT DO YOU THINK AND HOW DO YOU FEEL THIS EPISODE, THIS CHAPTER SHOULD BE COVERED.
LET ME PASS ON THE SHOULD, I THINK IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW IT ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL BE.
ASSUMING THAT AARON SORKIN IS NOT WRITING THE SCRIPT, THE NOTION THAT THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS ARE GOING TO HAVE A ROAD TO DAMASCUS MOMENT AND SAY, OH, MY LORD, IT TURNS OUT THE PRESIDENT COMMITTED IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES IS SLIM AND NONE.
ALL OF THE ANALOGIES TO WATERGATE, AND NO ONE IS MORE APPROPRIATE TO DO THAT THAN CARL I THINK ARE COMPLETELY MISPLACED.
IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POLITICAL TIME.
NOT ONLY BECAUSE REPUBLICANS CONTROL THE SENATE, NOT ONLY BECAUSE THERE ARE NO MODERATE REPUBLICANS AS THERE WERE BACK IN WATERGATE.
NOT ONLY BECAUSE THERE'S A COUNTER WEIGHT IN THE MEDIA COVERAGE, SO THAT WHAT WE HAVE HERE, AS YOU SAY, NOT JUST A POLARIZED SITUATION, BUT A SITUATION WHERE THE INSTITUTIONAL COMMANDS THAT GOVERNED DECISION MAKERS A GENERATION OR TWO AGO, PROTECT THE SENATE, HAVE A COURT, ORDER A PRESIDENT TO TURN OVER TAPES EVEN IF THE PRESIDENT APPOINTED SOME OF THOSE JUDGES TO ME HAS BEEN OVERWHELMED BY THE PARTISAN WHO'S TEAM ARE YOU ON ASPECT.
WHAT YOU HEARD TODAY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE WAS A SERIES OF ARGUMENTS, MANY OF WHICH IN MY OPINION MAKE NO SENSE.
WELL, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UKRAINE DIDN'T PUBLICLY OBJECT TO BEING PRESSURED.
OF COURSE HE DIDN'T.
BECAUSE HIS FUTURE WAS DEPENDENT ON MAKING THE PRESIDENT HAPPY.
I THINK THAT WILL NOT MATTER TO THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF DECISION MAKERS, AND I THINK THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT'S APPROVAL RATINGS HAVE NOT BUDGED, MAYBE EVEN TICKED UP A SHADE AFTER ALL OF THIS TELLS YOU WHERE WE ARE.
PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO POLITICAL AND PARTISAN IMPULSES.
NOT THE INSTITUTIONAL ROLES THAT AT ANOTHER TIME THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYING.
IN TERMS OF THE RATE H RATINGS, YOU REMEMBER POLL RATINGS, PRESIDENT CLINTON'S POLL RATINGS STAYED PRETTY HIGH AND TICKED UP QUITE HIGH DURING THE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS BACK IN THE '90s, BEING THAT AS IT MAY, I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING, AND THAT IS OBVIOUSLY DURING THE WATERGATE MOMENT IT WAS THE TAPES THAT WERE THE SMOKING GUN.
PEOPLE ARE NOW SAYING, ARE BILL TAYLOR'S TECH'S AND HIS COPIOUS NOTE TAKING SORT OF THE SMOKING GUN.
WHAT DO BOTH OF YOU THINK?
CARL?
I THINK THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO HERE, I THINK WE NEED TO DO A LOT LESS SPECULATING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.
THERE IS A PROCEDURE UNDERWAY IN WHICH A BODY OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTS VERY STRONGLY ONE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ENGAGED IN ATTEMPTED BRIBERY.
WHICH IS THE CONSTITUTION ONLY TALKS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TWO HIGH CRIMES.
BRIBERY AND TREASON.
AND THIS REALLY LOOKS LIKE ATTEMPTED BRIBERY.
SO LET'S START WITH THAT.
AND IT'S ABOUT BUILDING A CASE.
WE'VE GOT A LOT MORE WITNESSES TO HEAR FROM.
AND A LOT MORE COVERAGE.
AND IT SEEMS TO ME WHAT THE PRESS OUGHT TO BE FOCUSING ON AMONG OTHER THINGS RIGHT NOW IS DEVELOPING NEW INFORMATION FROM THE LEADS THAT WE HAVE GOTTEN FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE UKRAINE REVELATIONS.
THERE ARE A WHOLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT APPEAR BEFORE THE COMMITTEE BECAUSE PRIVILEGES HAVE BEEN CLAIMED.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT REPORTERS CAN'T GO TO SEE THEM.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE'S NOT AN AWFUL LOT OF SUGGESTIVE EVIDENCE OUT THERE ABOUT HOW THE PRESS CAN ADVANCE THE STORY IN THIS MOMENT WHILE THE HEARINGS ARE TAKING PLACE.
AGAIN, I COME BACK TO THE SENATE.
I AGREE WITH JEFF, THAT THIS IS TOTALLY A DIFFERENT TIME IN OUR HISTORY.
AND HISTORY NEVER EXACTLY REPEATS ITSELF, WE LIVE IN OUR OWN TIME.
BUT WHAT IS, I THINK CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT MIGHT NOT BE QUITE SO ABSOLUTE IS THAT THESE SENATORS, IF THERE IS A REALLY CONVINCING CASE.
THAT THEY COULD BE BUDGED LOOSE, I THINK IT'S A LONGSHOT, BUT AGAIN I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE INFORMATION.
AND IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE REALLY DEVASTATING.
NOT THAT MANY SENATORS HAVE AFFECTION FOR DONALD TRUMP.
IF THERE IS DEVASTATING INFORMATION.
THEN I THINK PERHAPS WE HAVE A DIFFERENT DYNAMIC AT WORK.
LET ME ASK JEFF THAT, THAT PRESUMABLY SENATORS WOULD BE INFLUENCED BY THEIR CONSTITUENTS, SO THE QUESTION IS, WHAT DO PEOPLE WITH MISGIVINGS THINK, AND WILL THEY BRING PRESSURE OR OTHERWISE ON THEIR OWN REPRESENTATIVES OR ON THEIR INCENTIVES.
LET ME READ SOMETHING THAT THE NEW YORK TIMES CHIEF TELEVISION CRITIC WROTE ABOUT WATCHING THE 1973 WATT IRGATE HEARINGS.
HE SAYS IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THIS YEAR'S HEARINGS WILL HAVE NO EFFECT OR CHANGE NO MINDS, BUT THEY WON'T BE A COLLECTIVE EXPERIENCE.
THEY'LL BE A MULTIMEDIA PRODUCTION, CACOPHONOUS, SPUN AND TAKEN IN BY SEPARATE DIFFERENT AUDIENCES AS IF THEY WERE WATCHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PROGRAMS.
JEFF, THAT IS A REAL CHALLENGE.
IN FACT, YOU SAW THIS TODAY, I WANTED TO MENTION THIS, WHEN TAYLOR WAS TESTIFYING, ON MSNBC, THE KYRONS WERE SAYING, HERE'S WHAT HE DID IN HIS CAREER, AND ON FOX, THERE WERE THREE REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTEDS, THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS HE'S A NEVER TRUMPER, HE NEVER TALKED TO TRUMP.
THIS NOTION OF PICKING YOUR OWN REALITY IS A HUGELY IMPORTANT FACT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SENATORS WHO WILL DECIDE.
THEY HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY ARE PREPARED TO RISK THE END OF THEIR CAREER BY OFFENDING THEIR BASE OR IF THEY'RE IN A SWING STATE NEXT YEAR AND THE EVIDENCE MOUNTS AND SOMEHOW THE PUBLIC OPINION CHANGES.
WILL THEY THREATEN THEIR CAREERS BY NOT SUPPORTING IMPEACHMENT?
I THOUGHT ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING THINGS, AND THIS I GUESS IS TO CARL'S POINT.
SOMEBODY SUGGESTED THAT THE SENATE SHOULD ADOPT A SECRET BALLOT.
BECAUSE THERE'S THIS NOTION, IF THE SENATORS COULD VOTE IN SECRET, A LOT WOULD VOTE TO REMOVE TRUMP.
I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL THING HERE, FOR THOSE THAT DON'T LIKE TRUMP, IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.
HIS GREAT VICTORY HAS BEEN TO CONVINCE HIS BASE THAT WHATEVER YOU HEAR ABOUT HIM THAT IS NEGATIVE IS BY DEFINITION FAKE NEWS.
HE TOLD LESLIE STAAL A COUPLE YEARS AGO, THAT'S WHY HE BATTERS THE PRESS, SO PEOPLE WON'T BELIEVE IT.
THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON THE SUPPORTERS AND THE DECISION MAKERS.
YOU SAW THE REPUBLICANS WITH ONE MINOR EXCEPTION WILL HURD, REALLY KIND OF BRUSH PAST THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT TAYLOR AND KENT WERE SAYING, AND SAY, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, HE GOT THE MONEY AFTER ALL, AND BY THE WAY, MAYBE UKRAINE WAS TRYING TO MESS AROUND WITH THE ELECTION, THAT WAS NUNES' POINT.
SO THE NEED TO RALLY AROUND THE TROOPS, THE NEED TO GRASP WITH ANY ARGUMENT THAT WILL WORK FOR YOUR SIDE AS OPPOSED TO A MORE THOUGHTFUL INSTITUTIONAL APPROACH TO THIS IS THE DOMINANT MOTIF, MAYBE CARL'S RIGHT, HE'S CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT WE DON'T KNOW, SOMETHING COULD SHOW UP.
IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT MORE COULD SHOW UP, NOT JUST ABOUT THIS, BUT ABOUT THE LAST THREE YEARS OF THIS PRESIDENCY, YOU HAVE HAD CONSERVATISM EMBRACE THE PRESIDENT WHO HAS ABANDONED EVERY KEY ELEMENT OF THE CONSERVATIVE CANNON.
INCLUDING AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.
AND IT'S NOT MATTERED.
I THINK TRYING TO SEE THIS EVENT THROUGH THE PRISM OF WATERGATE, AND EVEN THROUGH THE PRISM OF CLINTON WHO WAS VERY POPULAR.
IN PART BECAUSE THE ECONOMY WAS SO GREAT.
IT MISLEADS, IT DOESN'T FOCUS ON WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.
IT'S NOT ENCOURAGING TO ME.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT -- A SITUATION WHERE THE PRESS DOES IT'S ROLE AND THE PUBLIC RESPONDS.
BUT THE REALLY CONCERNING ISSUE IS, SUPPOSE THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T -- SUPPOSE THE PRESS DOES EVERYTHING IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, AND THERE'S A COLLECTIVE SHRUG.
WELL --
THAT'S WHAT I THINK MIGHT HAPPEN.
I CAN QUOTE YOU SOMETHING FROM SUSAN GLASSER IN THE NEW YORKER, IS TRUMP ALREADY WINNING THE IMPEACHMENT.
FOR TRUMP AND ITS DEFENDERS, IT'S A COUPE, A SHOW TRIAL, A WITCH HUNT.
THERE'S NO PLACE FOR FACTS, NO PROCESS THAT CAN SATISFY, NO WAY TO SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE.
AND LET'S PLAY THIS SOUND BITE FROM NEWT GINGRICH ON FOX NEWS WHICH GOES TO THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE.
MY PERSONAL VIEW, ALL OF THIS IS GARBAGE.
THE IDEA THAT A PRESIDENT -- REMEMBER THIS PRESIDENT IS SAYING TO THE UKRAINIANS, HELP ME GET TO THE TRUTH.
WHEN DID THE NEW YORK TIMES AND THE WASHINGTON POST SUDDENLY DECIDE THAT COVERING UP THE TRUTH IS A GF IDEA.
THIS IS CRAZY, AND THE DEMOCRATS ARE BEHAVING IN A WAY THAT'S CRAZY, HISTORIANS ARE GOING TO LOOK BACK AND SAY, THIS WHOLE CASE WAS TOTALLY MADE UP AND YOU HAVE A COUPE BEING ORCHESTRATED BY LEFT WINGERS AND THE BUREAUCRACY.
AND LEFT WINGERS IN THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS, HISTORIC ALI THEY'LL BE SEEN AS BEING CRAZY, LITERALLY LIKE THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS.
THAT'S A LOT OF USE OF A LOT OF INCENDIARY LANGUAGE THERE.
THAT IS THE HEART OF THE DEFENSE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
I MAKE OF IT, I KEEP COMING BACK TO, WE'RE IN A COLD CIVIL WAR, I THINK WE'RE GOING OVER THE SAME POINT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
AND JEFF AND I AGREE ON THIS, WE'RE IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIME IN AMERICA THAT IS DEFINED BY THE VICIOUSNESS OF THE WAY OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM IS BEING CONDUCTED TODAY.
BUT I THINK WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT THE REAL ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, AND THAT'S PUTIN AND RUSSIA, AND ONE OF THE REALLY DAMNING THINGS THAT WE HEARD OVER AND OVER AND OVER TODAY IS AGAIN HOW THIS PRESIDENT HAS SERVED THE INTERESTS OF PUTIN, WHETHER IT IS HALF WITTING, UNWITTING, OR WITTING HIS OBESEANCE TO VLADIMIR PUTIN CONTINUES TO BE ASTONISHING, THAT IS ANOTHER THING THAT REPUBLICAN SENATORS -- I KEEP MAKING A DISTINCTION BETWEEN SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE.
I GO NOT HAVE AN EXPECTATION THAT THE SENATE IS GOING TO CONVICT.
BUT I ALSO HAVE NO EXPECTATION THAT WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN THIS PRESIDENCY AS WE HAVE SEEN, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IS IN ENVIRONMENT AS WE HAVE SEEN.
AND WE ARE IN A TIME AND A PLACE THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING THAT WE HAVE -- CERTAINLY PEOPLE MY AGE HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS SO EXTRAORDINARY IS THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS DESTABILIZED THE UNITED STATES, OUR POLITICAL PROCESS.
HE'S DESTABILIZED THE WEST, THIS IS A LEADER OF A COUNTRY WITH 4% OF GDP IN THE WORLD, EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE 40%. AND YET THIS PRESIDENT HAS ENABLED PUTIN TO A LARGE EXTENT TO DO THIS, AND THERE CERTAINLY ARE MANY SENATORS WHO WORRY ABOUT THIS, REPUBLICANS KNOW IT, AND THAT IS ALSO PART OF THIS DYNAMIC.
AND I THINK WE GOT TO LOOK AT IT IN TERMS -- IF THERE IS A CONSPIRACY HERE.
TO UNDERMINE OUR ELECTORAL SYSTEM BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WITH THE AID OF A FOREIGN POWER, THAT THE RUSSIAN FACTOR CAN PLAY INTO IT.
VERY QUICKLY, I WANT TO END ON THE ISSUE OF THE WHISTLE-BLOWER, OBVIOUSLY, CARL THIS WOULD HAVE COME UP IN THE CASE OF DEEP THROAT DURING WATERGATE, BUT BECAUSE I NEED TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD, AND WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
THIS INSISTENCE BY THE REPUBLICANS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT THE WHISTLE-BLOWER, AND THE WHISTLE-BLOWER NEEDS TO COME FORWARD AND ACCUSING SCHIFF OF KNOWING THE WHISTLE-BLOWER, ALL OF THAT, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT TACTIC?
IT'S A DIVERSION.
I KEEP THINKING OF LAUREN BACALL'S GREAT LINE FROM THAT MOVIE, YOU KNOW HOW TO WHISTLE, DON'T YOU?
JUST PUT YOUR LIPS TOGETHER AND BLOW.
WHEN YOU LISTEN TO SOMEBODY LIKE GINGRICH TALK ABOUT HISTORY, YOU KNOW WHY HE NEVER GOT TENURE WHEN HE WAS A HISTORY TEACHER.
IT'S A -- IT'S A BIZARRE WORLD PICTURE HE'S PAINTED.
IT'S GOING TO -- IT WORKS SO FAR WITH THAT BASE, AND IT WORKED SO FAR WITH ENOUGH OF THAT BASE, THAT I REALLY THINK THAT BARRING SOME REALLY AMAZING BLACK SWAN SHOWING UP, WE PRETTY MUCH KNOW HOW THIS IS GOING TO PLAY OUT.
WELL, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WATCH IT AND FOLLOW IT AND GET ALL THE TESTIMONY AND EXPERTISE WE CAN.
THANK YOU BOTH GENTLEMAN, AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
WE'LL BE FOLLOWING THIS STORY VERY CLOSELY IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS TO COME.
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SIGN UP FOR OUR DAILY PREVIEW, VISIT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.