November 19, 2024

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS NO LONGER CONSERVATIVE.

>> AT A CRITICAL TIME FOR AMERICA AND THE WORLD, I SPEAK TO FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER ABOUT STANDING UP FOR UKRAINE AND AGAINST TRUMP.

> >> THEN -- >> I WOULD DIE FOR A UNITED IRELAND.

>> "SAY NOTHING: THE HORRORS OF THE TROUBLES," TURNING HIS BEST-SELLING BOOK INTO A HIT SERIES FOR TV.

> >> PLUS âáá INCREASINGLY PEOPLE WITH HIGH SCHOOL AND PEOPLE WITH COLLEGE DEGREES LIVE IN DIFFERENT WORLDS.

>> WRITER DAVID BROOKS ON WHY HE THINKS THE IVY LEAGUE BROKE AMERICA.

â™á â™á â™á â™á > >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

1,000 DAYS OF WAR, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER UKRAINE FIRES U. S. -MADE LONGER RANGE MISSILES INTO RUSSIA.

THE ATTACK COMES DAYS AFTER PRESIDENT BIDEN GAVE KYIV THE GREEN LIGHT TO USE ATTACKEMS INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

RUSSIAN AIR DEFENSES SAID THEY SHOT DOWN FIVE OF THE MISSILES AND ANOTHER WAS DAMAGED.

THE KREMLIN IS ESCALATING ITS CAMPAIGN AGAINST UKRAINE, BLANKETING THE COUNTRY WITH DRONE AND MISSILE ATTACKS AND VLADIMIR PUTIN UPDATING THE NUCLEAR DOCTRINE TO IN THEORY LOWER THE BAR FOR USING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER IS CONCERNED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

HE CALLED HIS FORMER PARTY A CULT AND ENDORSED KAMALA HARRIS.

HE JOINS ME NOW LIVE FROM TEXAS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> I KNOW FOR YOU, KYIV AND THIS WAR IN UKRAINE HAS BEEN A TOP PRIORITY FOR THE U. S. TO SUPPORT UKRAINE IN THE TWO YEARS NOW, 1,000 DAYS SINCE RUSSIA'S ILLEGAL INVASION IN FEBRUARY OF 2022.

JUST FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, 1,000 DAYS TODAY, STILL SO MUCH UP IN THE AIR.

UKRAINE HAS BEEN TAKING A HIT OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS.

NEWS OF THE ATTACKEMS, YOU THINK THIS COULD BE POTENTIALLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR UKRAINE TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE WAR BEFORE DONALD TRUMP ENTERS THE OVAL OFFICE AGAIN?

>> YEAH.

IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, AND BY THE WAY, YES, THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THE COURSE.

DOESN'T MEAN THAT RUSSIA IS GOING TO LOSE OR BE COWERING, BUT THIS EXPANDS THE DISTANCE AT WHICH UKRAINE CAN DEFEND ITSELF FROM WHERE IT'S ATTACKED FROM.

YOU CAN TAKE OUT SUPPLY NODES, AREAS OF WEAPON AND AMMUNITION STORAGE.

A MONTH OR TWO AGO THEY HIT A MASSIVE AMMUNITION DEPOT THAT SLOWED THE AMOUNT OF FIRE FROM THE RUSSIANS.

THAT'S WHY THIS EXPANSION IS SO IMPORTANT.

AND KEEP THIS IN MIND.

I HEAR PEOPLE SAY WHAT IS THE GOAL OR END GAME FOR UKRAINE.

THE END GAME PRESSURE IS ON RUSSIA.

ALL A DEFENDING COUNTRY HAS TO DO TO WIN IS KEEP DEFENDING.

THIS IDEA THAT A DEFENDING COUNTRY HAS TO SOMEHOW REACH IN AND INVADE AN INVADING COUNTRY IS NOT THE CASE.

YOU HAVE TO DEFEND AND UKRAINIANS HAVE DEFENDED THEMSELVES UNBELIEVE A LITTLE BIT.

THE INTELLIGENCE BRIEFINGS I GOT, I WAS STILL IN CONGRESS WHEN IT KICKED OFF, WAS THIS WOULD BE A MATTER OF A COUPLE OF DAYS THAT RUSSIA WOULD FIGHT, THEN WOULD BE AN INSURGENCY FROM THEN ON.

UKRAINE HAS BEEN AMAZING.

THIS IS TRULY THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE FACING OUR WORLD TODAY.

>> AND AS WE'RE APPROACHING ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION, DONALD TRUMP HAS KEPT NO SECRET AS TO HOW HE'S VIEWED THIS WAR AND U. S. SUPPORT AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN AID THE U. S. HAS PROVIDED UKRAINE.

HE'S CAMPAIGNED ON SAYING THE WAR WILL END DAY ONE.

AND WE KNOW HIS PAST AFFINITY AND COMMENTS HE'S MADE ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN THAT HAS RAISED EYEBROWS.

WHAT DO YOU SEE IN HIS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISERS AND MILITARY PICKS FOR HIS CABINET, IN PARTICULAR, PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY, DECORATED FORMER VETERAN WHO SERVED THE COUNTRY BUT HAS NO EXPERIENCE RUNNING AN ORGANIZATION THE SIZE OF THE PENTAGON, AND THEN TULSI GABBARD AT DNI WHO HAS MADE CONTROVERSIAL COMMENTS BLAMING UKRAINE FOR RUSSIA'S INVASION AND SHOWING SYMPATHY FOR BASHAR AL ASSAD OF ALL PEOPLE.

>> TULSI REMINDED PEOPLE THAT JAPAN ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR IN WORLD WAR II.

YOU'RE SO MUCH ON THE SIDE OF VLADIMIR PUTIN YOU'RE ANGRY THAT JAPAN IS GIVING WEAPONS TO UKRAINE SO YOU BRING UP PEARL HARBOR.

I WAS FRIENDS WITH HER UNTIL SHE VISITED ASSAD.

A BUTCHER, GENOCIDE GUY, SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL WHEN HE FINALLY MEETS HIS END.

SHE GAVE PROPAGANDA TO HIM TO USE TO HOLD ON TO POWER AND GIVES PROPAGANDA DAILY TO THE RUSSIAN REGIME, THEY CALL HER BASICALLY THEIR GIRLFRIEND.

THIS IS VERY BAD, SHE'S TERRIBLE DECISION FOR DNI, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE.

I DON'T KNOW WHY ANY ALLY WOULD COOPERATE WITH US IF SHE GETS IT.

PETE HEGSETH, HE'S SO EAGER TO PLEASE DONALD TRUMP, WHO KNOWS.

SAME WITH MARCO RUBIO.

MY HOPE IS IN THE END DONALD TRUMP RECOGNIZES THE DAMAGE THAT LEAVING AFGHANISTAN DID TO JOE BIDEN.

HIS APPROVAL WENT TO UNDER WATER AND NEVER RECOVERED.

IF UKRAINE COLLAPSES UNDER DONALD TRUMP, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD BE REALLY UPSET AND SO WOULD THE WORLD AND DO REAL DAMAGE TO HIS REPUTATION.

THAT'S HOW WE GET TO DONALD TRUMP.

THERE'S NO DOUBT HE'S LEAST BEST OF THE TWO PEOPLE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT TO CONTINUE TO HELP UKRAINE DEFEND ITSELF.

EUROPE HAS TO DEFEND THEIR CONTINENT, HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE THERE WITH THEM STILL BUT WE DON'T KNOW.

>> AFGHANISTAN, HOW DID YOU RESPOND TO THE REPORTS OF A COMMITTEE THE PRESIDENT-ELECT IS INTERESTED IN COURT MARTIALS SOME OF THE MILITARY LEADERS INVOLVED IN WHAT WE ALL OBJECTIVELY SAY WAS A DISASTER OF A WISH DRAWL.

DO YOU SUPPORT THAT?

>> CERTAINLY NOT A COURT MARTIAL, THAT'S INSANE.

ANSWERS TO WHAT HAPPENED, ABSOLUTELY.

WE CALL IT HOT WASHING THE MILITARY.

LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT WE NEED TO LEARN TO DO DIFFERENTLY.

WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT BY THE WAY IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY'VE DONE WITH THEIR VISAS.

BUT THE BEST PART OF THAT, DONALD TRUMP IS THE REASON WE LEFT AFGHANISTAN.

I GET IT, JOE BIDEN WAS PRESIDENT AT THE MOMENT WE LEFT AFGHANISTAN, AND HE DOES OWN ALL OF THE TACTICAL EMBARRASSMENTS THAT HAPPENED IN THAT WITHDRAWAL.

IT WAS MIKE POMPEO AND DONALD TRUMP THAT SET JOE BIDEN UP FOR A NO- WIN SITUATION.

THEY MADE A DEAL WITH THE TALIBAN WE WOULD LEAVE AFTER 18 MONTHS.

THEY HAD THE TROOP NUMBERS SET SO JOE BIDEN HAD TO EITHER INCREASE TROOPS OR PULL THEM OUT.

I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE INCREASED THEM BUT TOUGH DECISION FOR A PRESIDENT.

DONALD TRUMP OWNS THIS AS MUCH AS JOE BIDEN DOES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S DONALD TRUMP, OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY DOESN'T TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ANYTHING.

THIS IS HIS FAULT AS MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE'S.

>> DONALD TRUMP HAS ALSO CONFIRMED ON SOCIAL MEDIA THIS WEEK HE WOULD DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY AND USE MILITARY TO DEPORT POTENTIALLY MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

CAN HE DO THAT?

HOW DO YOU ENVISION THAT HAPPENING.

DO YOU THINK CONGRESS WITH REPUBLICANS IN CONTROL OF BOTH CHAMBERS, THIS IS SOMETHING CONGRESS WOULD SIGN OFF ON AS WELL?

>> YEAH, LOOK.

HERE'S WHAT CONGRESS CAN DO TO STOP IT HAPPENING.

THE PRESIDENT UNDER INSURRECTION ACTS, NATIONAL DEFENSE, WHATEVER THEY PUT IT UNDER, HAS THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION.

THAT CAN BE AT THE BORDER AND WITHIN THE INTERIOR OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT CONGRESS CAN DO IS PASS LAWS TO PROHIBIT THE PRESIDENT FROM USING CERTAIN FUNDS TO DO THAT.

THAT'S HOW YOU STOP A PRESIDENT FROM ACTING.

OBVIOUSLY WITH THE MAKEUP OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE, THERE WILL BE NO EFFORT TO STOP TRUMP.

SO HE CAN DO THIS.

HERE'S THE QUESTION.

I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT ONCE AMERICANS START SEEING PEOPLE THAT ARE BROWN, BASICALLY BECAUSE THEY'RE BROWN BEING ROUNDED UP, CHECKED FOR THEIR I. D. s AND DEPORTED TO A COUNTRY -- BY THE WAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE PERMISSION FROM THE COUNTRY TO LEAVE PEOPLE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE PERMISSION.

AND I DISAGREE WITH THE ELECTION OF TRUMP, IT WAS STILL CLOSE, BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NOT SAVAGES.

WHEN YOU START SEEING FAMILIES TORN APART, I THINK THIS TURNS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP IN RECORD PACE.

I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS.

HE TALKS ABOUT DEPORTING CRIMINALS, THIS IS ALREADY BEING DONE BY THE WAY.

YES, HE HAS EVERY RIGHT, HE MAY TRY.

STEPHEN MILLER, THE DARK LORD UNDER HIM, WILL PROBABLY TRY, BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WON'T STAND FOR WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT GOES FROM THEORY TO REALITY.

>> ASIDE FROM THE MORAL QUESTION, THERE'S THE ECONOMIC QUESTION, WHAT DOES IT DO TO THE U. S. ECONOMY TO DEPORT MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS HERE.

LET'S TURN TO A PROJECT WE'LL SEE MORE OF IN EARLY JANUARY, THAT IS A FILM THAT ARE THE FOCUS OF.

CALLED "THE LAST REPUBLICAN," A NEW DOCUMENTARY, IT'S ABOUT YOUR PROCESS, A LONELY PROCESS, IT TURNED OUT TO BE, AS A TRUE AND TRUE REPUBLICAN AS YOU HAVE CONSTANTLY SAID YOU ARE.

AND YOU HAVE A AGREED WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE POLICIES ESPOUSED BY DONALD TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM, IT WAS JANUARY 6th THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING FOR YOU AND IN RETROSPECT, YOU THOUGHT PERHAPS NAIVELY IT WOULD BE THE SAME FOR YOUR REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES AS WELL AND TURNED OUT TO BE NOT THE CASE.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM AS IT RELATES TO WHAT YOU THOUGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN A TURNING POINT THAT DAY.

>> NAIVELY, I THOUGHT THERE'S NO WAY PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO WAKE UP FROM THIS.

I REMEMBER THE DAY AFTER JANUARY 6th, EVERYBODY WAS WAKING UP AT THAT POINT.

>> THE PRESIDENT BEARS RESPONSIBILITY FOR WEDNESDAY'S ATTACK ON CONGRESS BY MOB RIOTERS.

HE SHOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY DENOUNCED THE MOB WHEN HE SAW WHAT WAS UNFOLDING.

THESE FACTS REQUIRE IMMEDIATE ACTION BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS PRACTICALLY AND MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVOKING THE EVENTS OF THE DAY.

NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

>> I CALLED IT, IT WAS LIKE SATURDAY MORNING, YOU HAD A GIANT PARTY AT YOUR HOUSE FRIDAY NIGHT, NOW YOU GOT CHICKENS FLYING AROUND, YOU HAVE A BAD HEADACHE AND YOU'RE ONLY WEARING A SHIRT.

WHAT DID WE DO LAST NIGHT.

THAT'S WHERE I THOUGHT THE PARTY WAS.

>> ADAM, LOOKING BACK, ARE YOU SURPRISED THIS IS WHERE THE PARTY IS NOW FOUR YEARS LATER?

AND THE FACT THAT FOR THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS, THIS WASN'T THE MOST PRESSING ISSUE?

>> EVERY DAY I'M SURPRISED, HONESTLY, I CAN'T COME TO GRIPS WITH IT.

GROWING UP AS A PROUD AMERICAN, A PROUD REPUBLICAN, SOMEBODY THAT REALLY BELIEVED AND STILL DOES BELIEVE IN AMERICA BY THE WAY, WENT ON TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY, I ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS GEORGIA WASHINGTON, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, PROUD OF OUR COUNTRY AND DEMOCRACY WOULD PENETRATE THE DEPTHS OF OUR SOUL.

I THOUGHT EVERYBODY I WORKED WITH, REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, HAD A MORAL RED LINE THEY WOULDN'T CROSS.

SOME DID AND AREN'T IN CONGRESS, PUSHED OUT, LEFT OR QUIT.

SO MANY DON'T.

AND EVERY DAY IT CONTINUES TO BAFFLE ME THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WILLING TO LITERALLY GO DOWN THIS PATH TO AUTHORITARIANISM TO HAVE PROXIMITY TO POWER FOR A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.

THIS IS EVERYTHING THE BIBLE WARNS AGAINST BY THE WAY.

IT DOES SURPRISE ME.

AND IT SURPRISES ME THAT JANUARY 6th WASN'T A BIGGER ISSUE.

IT'S THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO VOTE THE WAY THEY WANT, I WILL CONTINUE TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY BEST I KNOW HOW EVEN IF I'M THE LAST ONE.

IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

>> IT TURNS OUT TO BE A BRAVE AND LONELY THING TO DO FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF YOUR PARTY.

WE APPRECIATE YOU TALKING TO US AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE DONE AS A PATRIOT OF AMERICA.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT FILM THAT VIEWERS SHOULD ALL WATCH AND CONTINUE TO LEARN FROM.

JUST PERSONALLY, SEEING THE BIRTH OF YOUR BEAUTIFUL SON WAS A WONDERFUL MOMENT IN THE FILM AS WELL.

HOME YOU'RE ENJOYING EVERY MOMENT WITH HIM.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT, THE DEVASTATION OF WAR AND CRY FOR PEACE.

THE TROUBLES OF NORTHERN IRELAND SEEMED TO BE UNRESOLVABLE CONFLICT, THERE WERE HORRIBLE ATROCITIES AND SWATHS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE KILLED.

PEOPLE SAID ENOUGH, AND THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT WAS A BEACON OF HOPE AROUND THE WORLD.

THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PICK UP THE PIECES EVER SINCE.

THE BOOK IS A SOBER AND WELL-RESEARCHED ACCOUNT LOOKING AT THE CONFLICT FROM THE WORST PERPETRATORS AND MOST AFFLICTED VICTIMS.

THE FAMILY OF A WIDOW AND MOTHER OF TEN MURDERED BY THE IRA.

IT'S BEEN TURNED INTO A DRAMA SERIES ON HULU AND DISNEY PLUS.

>> WE WANTED TO BE DOING WHAT THE BOYS ARE DOING.

>> WHAT?

>> FUNDRAISING.

>> WE'RE RAISING FUNDS FOR THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY.

MOTHER SUPERIOR.

â™á â™á >> THE BRITS HAD A PROBLEM, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS IRA.

ONE THING THEY COULD NEVER GET US TO DO WAS TALK.

>> MY WHOLE FAMILY SUFFERED.

I WOULD DIE FOR A UNITED IRELAND.

>> CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO THE AUTHOR ABOUT TRANSLATING THIS HISTORY FROM BOOK TO SCREEN.

>> PATRICK, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> I SAY WELCOME BACK BECAUSE WE HAD A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE BOOK "SAY NOTHING" WHEN IT CAME OUT A FEW YEARS AGO.

NOW THE SERIES IS DROPPING.

HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT TO TURN THIS BOOK ABOUT ESSENTIALLY A HISTORY OF THE TROUBLES FROM ONE SIDE INTO A SERIES?

>> IT WASN'T EASY.

WHEN I FINISHED THE BOOK, IT WAS NOT A SITUATION WHERE WE SHOPPED IT AROUND HOLLYWOOD AND TOOK IT TO ANYBODY, GAVE IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER.

THERE WAS ONE PRODUCTION COMPANY I SPOKE TO ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THEY HAD MADE "THE PEOPLE VS. OJ SIMPSON" BASED ON A BOOK ON A VEXING TOPIC, RACE.

CAN YOU DO THIS, THEY SAID, YOU WOULD BE A PARTNER HELPING PRODUCE IT.

WOULDN'T JUST GIVE US THE RIGHTS AND WE CAME BACK WITH THE SERIES.

I WAS THERE, AN ACTIVE VOICE IN THE ROOM FOR THE FIVE YEARS IT'S TAKEN TO GET IT MADE.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

IT IS A TRUE STORY, A JOURNALISTIC ENTERPRISE AND AMAZING WRITE.

DO YOU THINK THAT A SERIES, WHICH IS INEVITABLY DRAMATIZED, ALL THE EFFECTS AND BRILLIANT ACTORS, ALL OF THAT --WERE YOU CONCERNED IT BECOMES LESS OF A JOURNALISTIC ENTERPRISE AND MORE OF A SHOW?

>> WELL, SOME OF THAT IS IN THE NATURE OF WHAT IT IS.

AT THIS POINT VIEWERS ARE SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT WATCHING A TELEVISION DRAMA, EVEN BASED ON A TRUE STORY, THERE'S DRAMATIC LICENSE THAT HAS TO BE EMPLOYED BY THE PEOPLE MAKING IT.

YOU'RE COMPRESSING CERTAIN STORIES, CERTAIN PLACES YOU'RE CONJECTURING ABOUT WHAT WAS SAID IN THE ROOM.

WHAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME AS THE AUTHOR OF NONFICTION BOOK WITH OVER 100 PAGES OF END NOTES, SCRUPULOUSLY REPORTED, WAS NOT TO BE SAYING WE WERE MAKING A DOCUMENTARY, BUT IN THE PLACES THAT LICENSE WAS TAKEN IT FELT LIKE A REASONABLE LICENSE TO TAKE.

IF PEOPLE WERE COLORING, THEY WERE DOING SO BETWEEN THE LINES OF THE FACTUAL NARRATIVE LAID OUT IN THE BOOK.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP THAT WE HAVE.

AND THIS IS DOLORES PRICE, ONE OF THE MAIN, IF NOT THE PROTAGONIST OF THE BOOK AND SERIES.

SHE HAD A SISTER, MARIAN, THEY WERE IRA, AND THERE'S BRENDAN HUGHES.

THREE MAIN CHARACTERS.

HERE'S A CLIP OF DOLORES TALKING ABOUT WHY SHE DOES WHAT SHE DOES FOR THE IRA.

>> BUT I WOULD DIE FOR A UNITED IRELAND.

I WOULD DIE IF I THOUGHT IT MEANT THE BRITS WOULD HESITATE GOING TO THE GROCERIES OR SECONDING THEIR WEE KIDS OFF TO THE SCHOOL IN THE MORNING, I WOULD DIE.

MY WHOLE FAMILY SUFFERED AND I WANT THAT FEAR TO LIVE IN THEIR HEARTS, TOO, YOU KNOW.

>> BLUNT, SOME SAY RADICAL.

BUT THIS IS WHAT IT WAS BACK IN, I GUESS THE '60s AND '70s.

WHO IS DOLORES PRICE, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO FOCUS ON HER SO MUCH?

>> THIS WHOLE PROJECT STARTED FOR ME MORE THAN A DECADE AGO.

THAT WOMAN DIED IN 2013, AND I READ HER OBITUARY IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES. "

SHE WAS THE FIRST WOMAN TO JOIN THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY AS A FRONTLINE SOLDIER.

GENERATIONS OF WOMEN HAD BEEN IN THE IRA, BUT ALWAYS DOING THINGS LIKE HIDING WEAPONS, HELPING INJURED MEN.

THEY WERE BEHIND THE LINES.

SHE SAID I WANT TO BE OUT THERE CARRYING A GUN AND PLANNING OPERATIONS.

AND THAT WAS VERY INTRIGUING TO ME, READING THAT IN THE OBITUARY.

ON SOME LEVEL FOR ME THE TROUBLES SEEMED LIKE A VERY MALE STORY.

TO LEARN SHE JOINED WITH HER SISTER AND WENT ON HUNGER STRIKE, BOMBED LONDON, THROWN INTO BRIXTON PRISON AND WENT ON A HUNGER STRIKE, FRONT- PAGE NEWS IN 1973.

THAT STORY WAS INTERESTING, THE OTHER ASPECT IN THE OBITUARY, IN MIDDLE AGE, DOLORES LOOKED BACK AT THE THINGS SHE HAD DONE AS A YOUNG WOMAN IN HER EARLY 20s AND WAS RECONSIDERING WHAT IT WAS FOR, WAS IT WORTH IT, THE THINGS I DID.

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO IN THE BOOK AND WHAT I THINK WE'VE DONE SUCCESSFULLY IN THE SERIES IS INTEGRATE THE NATURE OF RADICAL POLITICS AND VIOLENCE USED IN THIS KIND OF CAUSE.

THE ALLURE BUT ALSO THE HUMAN COST OF IT FOR THE VICTIMS AND PERPETRATORS THEMSELVES.

>> REMINDING US OF THE HUNGER STRIKE, IN THE BOOK IT WAS GRAPHICALLY DESCRIBED, HOW THE BRITS AND PRISON WARDENS LITERALLY FORCE- FED THEM IN A VERY PAINFUL WAY AND IT COMES ACROSS DISTURBINGLY BECAUSE IT IS DISTURBING IN THE ACTUAL SERIES.

THAT'S A LEVEL OF AUTHENTICITY YOU INSISTED STAY IN.

>> YOU HAVE TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT THIS STUFF.

A SUBJECT LIKE THE TROUBLES, NOT JUST THE TROUBLES, OTHER CONFLICTS BEFORE AND MORE RECENTLY, YOU GET A VERY VEXED DISCOURSE, VERY ENTRENCHED POSITIONS ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

THIS WAS A SITUATION I SPENT A DECADE OF MY LIFE LOOKING AT THIS CONFLICT AND THESE PEOPLE AND FEEL A GREAT DEAL OF AMBIVALENCE ABOUT IT.

I WAS TRYING TO CAPTURE THE AMBIGUITY.

ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS LOOK REALLY HARD AT THE FACTS THEMSELVES.

WHAT IS IT THAT WOULD GIVE SOMEBODY THE IDEOLOGICAL ZEAL TO JOIN A PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATION AND DEVOTE THEIR LIFE TO THIS THING.

WHAT WOULD DRIVE THEM TO GO ON HUNGER STRIKE AND ALMOST DIE, AND ALSO WHAT WOULD DRIVE THEM TO TAKE UP ARMS, PLANT BOMBS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK IN AN UNBLINKING WAY AT THAT.

THE HUNGER STRIKE IS INTERESTING, FOR THE BRITISH AUTHORITIES THERE WAS A DILEMMA, DON'T WANT TO LET YOUNG WOMEN DIE AND BE A HUGE PROPAGANDA VICTORY FOR THE IRA.

SO FELT THEY HAD TO FORCE-FEED THEM AND KEEP THEM ALIVE.

THE WOMEN SAID YOU'RE DENYING US OUR BODILY AUTONOMY.

IF WE WANT TO DIE, SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO.

AND DOCTORS WERE LEFT IN A BIND.

IMPERATIVE, DO NO HARM, OTHER HAND, KEEP THE PATIENT ALIVE.

WE WANTED TO EXPLORE ALL THE DILEMMAS IN A WAY THAT'S GRAPHIC AND INTENSE BUT ALSO MOVING AND REALLY INTERESTING.

>> JUST A NOTE, BECAUSE I THINK IRA, HUNGER STRIKERS, EVERYBODY REMEMBERS AND ASSOCIATES IT WITH BOBBY SANDS, ALSO A BIG PART OF THE BOOK AND HE DID DIE.

WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT.

SUCH A WELL- KNOWN NAME.

CAN WE START WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK AND THE BEGINNING DRAMA OF THE SERIES?

THAT IS THE STORY OF JEAN McCONGAL.

SHE WAS A WIDOW WITH TEN CHILDREN AND DISAPPEARED.

I GUESS SHE WAS ACCUSED OF BEING A SNITCH FOR THE AUTHORITIES AGAINST THE IRA.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT STORY AND WHY IT WAS A CENTRAL PART OF THE STORY OF THAT TIME, AND THE COURSE THE PRICE SISTERS WERE INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH HER DISAPPEARANCE.

>> INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH IN THE OBITUARY I READ IN 2013, IT MENTIONED HER NAME.

AND THAT WAS NOT A NAME I KNEW AT THE TIME, THOUGH IT'S A FAMOUS NAME IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND HAD BEEN.

JEAN WAS ONE OF THE MORE ICONIC VICTIMS OF THE TROUBLES.

A WIDOW, A PROTESTANT LIVING IN A CATHOLIC AREA, A MOTHER OF TEN.

AND IN THE WINTER OF 1972, A GANG OF MASKED INTRUDERS CAME IN, PULLED HER OUT OF HER APARTMENT IN THIS BIG, IMPOSING HOUSING COMPLEX IN WEST BELFAST, HER CHILDREN CLINGING TO HER LEGS.

GANG SAID WE JUST WANT TO TALK, WE'LL BRING HER BACK.

THEY NEVER DID.

THE KIDS GREW UP IN ORPHANAGES, NOT KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED.

THEY WERE SPLIT UP.

IT EMERGED LATER SHE HAD BEEN KILLED BY THE IRA AND DOLORES PRICE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, WAS SOMEHOW INVOLVED.

FOR ME, THAT WAS THE SEED THAT STARTED THIS WHOLE PROJECT, THE IDEA OF TELLING A STORY ABOUT THESE TWO VERY DIFFERENT WOMEN.

ONE OF THEM A VICTIM, ONE A PERPETRATOR, AND THIS ACT OF VIOLENCE THAT CONNECTED THEM AND WOULD COME TO HAUNT ALL OF NORTHERN IRELAND.

THIS QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENED TO HER IS A SHADOW THAT CONTINUES TO HANG OVER THE PLACE TODAY.

IN THE SERIES THE FIRST THING YOU SEE IS HER ABDUCTION.

IT'S TERRIFYING, SEE HER CHILDREN AND A BRILLIANT ACTRESS PLAYING JEAN.

THERE'S A SENSE THAT IT STARTS AS A THRILLER OR MYSTERY, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WOMAN.

AND IT BECOMES A TRAGEDY.

>> IT'S SUCH A DIFFICULT, DIFFICULT STORY.

THERE WAS QUITE A LOT OF THAT GOING AROUND AT THAT TIME.

TEN CHILDREN, AND THE AUTHORITIES VISITED HORRORS ON A LOT OF THEM IN SO-CALLED ORPHANAGES AND CARE HOMES, AND THEY REALLY SUFFERED.

YET THEY COOPERATED WITH YOU FOR THE BOOK.

YOU COMMEND THEM AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

BUT THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PROGRAM AND SERIES, SAYING YOU DIDN'T REACH OUT.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THEY SAY I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE PROFITING OUT OF SOMEONE ELSE'S GRIEF, BUT HELEN ADDED SHE WOULD SUPPORT THE SERIES IF THEY TELL IT RIGHT.

HAVE YOU HEARD FROM HELEN?

I GUESS SHE HASN'T SEEN IT.

DO YOU EXPECT TO HEAR FROM HER?

DID YOU MIND DOING IT WITHOUT THE KIDS' APPROVAL?

>> IT'S COMPLICATED.

ANYTIME YOU TELL A STORY TO DRAMATIZE PROFOUNDLY TRAUMATIC MOMENTS IN PEOPLE'S LIVES, OF COURSE THEY HAVE MIXED EMOTIONS ABOUT IT.

WE'VE MADE A GREAT EFFORT THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE PRODUCTION TO BE IN TOUCH WITH THE FAMILIES, NOT JUST HER BUT OTHER VICTIMS AS WELL, TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT WE WERE DOING, TO HEAR THEIR CONCERNS AND ANSWER QUESTIONS THEY HAD.

I EXPECT THAT WHEN THE FAMILIES SEE THE SERIES, THEY WILL SEE THAT THE STORY OF THESE VICTIMS IS TOLD WITH ENORMOUS COMPASSION AND SYMPATHY.

AND A REAL SENSE THERE IS A HEROISM IN DOING WHAT THEY DID, EXPERIENCE THIS UNIMAGINABLE TRAGEDY AND COME BACK FROM THAT AND SPEAK OUT AT A TIME THERE WAS A CODE OF SILENCE IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND SAY WE WANT ANSWERS, WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE IRA DID TO OUR FAMILIES.

THAT TO ME HAS BEEN A ROUSING EXAMPLE, THE FEARLESSNESS WITH WHICH THEY DEMANDED ANSWERS AND SOME IDEA OF HISTORICAL TRUTH AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

MY HOPE IS THEY SEE THE SERIES IS DONE IN THAT SPIRIT AND FOLLOWING THAT EXAMPLE.

I THINK THE NAME OF JEAN McCONVILLE SHOULD BE KNOWN THE WORLD OVER AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN.

>> EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO JERRY ADAMS IS, THE FAMOUS SINN FEIN LEADER, WENT TO THE UNITED STATES, GUY WHO WENT INTO THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH BRITAIN AND AMERICA AND THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND, ALL OF THAT.

HE'S GOT A HUGE POLITICAL PRESENCE.

HOWEVER JERRY ADAMS ALWAYS DENIED BEING IN THE IRA, AND ALWAYS DENIED KNOWING OF OR BEING IN ANY WAY INVOLVED IN ANY OF THESE THINGS LIKE THE DISAPPEARANCE AND MURDER.

HE DENIED IT ALL THE TIME.

I ACTUALLY INTERVIEWED HIM ABOUT IT, SPOKE TO HIM IN 2014, JUST AFTER HE WAS RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE FOR THE MURDER AFTER INVESTIGATION.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> I'M NEVER GOING TO DISTANCE MYSELF FROM PEOPLE I CONSIDER TO BE FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND HEROES.

OF COURSE, I DISAGREE WITH MANY OF THE ISSUES AND MANY OF THE THINGS THE IRA DID, INCLUDING THE KILLING OF MRS. M cCONVILL AND THE WAY HER TEN CHILDREN WERE LEFT.

>> AND AT THE END OF YOUR SERIES, HE'S ASKED IF HE HAS BLOOD ON HIS HANDS.

HE SAID NO, I'M PERFECTLY AT PEACE, HE DENIES IT.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE BOOK, I COVERED THE END PART OF THE TROUBLES TOWARD THE PEACE PROGRESS, AND I HAD NOT KNOWN THE FULL EXTENT OF WHAT DOLORES AND BRENDAN AND OTHERS SAY ABOUT JERRY ADAMS.

THAT HE WAS THE OFFICER COMMANDING, HE WAS IRA, AND A LOT OF THIS THEY SAY WAS AT HIS ORDERS, ALTHOUGH HE WAS ALWAYS ABLE TO KEEP HIS FINGERPRINTS OFF IT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> FUNNY YOU PLAYED THAT CLIP, I WROTE ABOUT THAT INTERVIEW IN THE BOOK.

HE HASN'T SPOKEN THAT MANY TIMES ABOUT THIS QUESTION IN A PUBLIC WAY.

THAT WAS ONE OF THEM.

HE WOULDN'T SPEAK TO ME AT ALL.

EITHER FOR THE ORIGINAL "NEW YORKER" ARTICLE OR THE BOOK.

I REALLY STUDIED THAT INTERVIEW AND OTHERS HE HAD GIVEN.

I THINK TO ME THERE IS A FASCINATING STORY HERE THAT GOES BACK TO THIS IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TAKE A LONGITUDINAL VIEW OF YOUNG RADICALS?

YOU LOOK AT THEM OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

FOR ME THIS IS A STORY ABOUT PEOPLE VERY CLOSE, THICK AS THIEVES, IN THE EARLY 1970S, YOUNG, IN THEIR 20s AND INVOLVED IN THE IRA.

ADAMS MAINTAINS HE NEVER WAS IN THE IRA, MANY PEOPLE IN THE IRA WOULD TELL YOU OTHERWISE.

ADAMS IS THE ONLY PERSON WITH A STRAIGHT FACE WILL CLAIM HE WAS NEVER IN THE IRA.

YOU END UP IN THIS SITUATION THAT ADAMS BECOMES, TO HIS ENORMOUS CREDIT, A PEACEMAKER.

HE SEES AROUND THE CORNER IN A WAY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE IRA WERE NOT ABLE TO.

HE REALIZES WE'LL NOT BE ABLE TO FIGHT THE BRITISH INTO THE SEA, WE NEED A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT.

BUT THAT'S EXPERIENCED BY RANK AND FILE SOLDIERS AS A BETRAYAL.

BECAUSE THEY SAY IN THE '70s I DID AWFUL THINGS AS A MEANS TO AN END.

IF YOU DO THESE TERRIBLE THINGS YOU'LL ACHIEVE WHAT WE WANTED TO ACHIEVE, UNITED IRELAND.

THEN THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT IN 1998 WHICH ADAMS BREATHES INTO EXISTENCE AND IT'S A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT AND A COMPROMISE.

IT'S STILL PART OF THE UK, NORTHERN IRELAND.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO DID THOSE THINGS, THEY SAY WAIT A SECOND, HOW DO I JUSTIFY THESE TRANSGRESSIVE ACTS I ENGAGED IN, SHOOTINGS, BOMBINGS, DISAPPEARANCES WHEN I WAS YOUNG.

AT THE TIME I JUSTIFIED THEM THINK THE DESTINATION WAS UNITED IRELAND, BUT WE NEVER GOT THERE AND YOU CHANGED THE GAME ON US.

AND ADAMS SAYS PERSONALLY I DON'T FEEL THE TRAUMA, I WAS NEVER IN THE IRA.

THAT INCENSES THEM ALL THE MORE.

THAT'S A STORY WE TELL VIVIDLY IN THE SERIES BECAUSE WE FOLLOW CHARACTERS UP TO RECENT YEARS, THE ARREST OF JERRY ADAMS ON SUSPICION OF INVOLVEMENT.

AND WE SEE THE WAY THE PEOPLE TURNED ON HIM WITH VOLCANIC EMOTION, THEY FELT SO BETRAYED.

>> AND THE END OF EVERY EPISODE, THERE'S A DISCLAIMER THAT JERRY ADAMS ALWAYS DENIED BEING INVOLVED IN THE IRA OR ANY POLITICAL VIOLENCE, YOU OR THE PRODUCERS FEEL MOVED TO PUT IT IN THERE.

THE POLITICAL END WAS UNITED IRELAND.

IT'S NOT HAPPENED YET, MAYBE IT WILL, BUT SINN FEIN IS RUNNING STRONG IN THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND.

THERE'S A SNAP ELECTION CALLED FOR END OF THE MONTH, NOVEMBER 29th, AND I WONDER WHETHER -- WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

EVEN THE BRITISH, APPARENTLY THE POLICE SERVICE OF NORTHERN IRELAND RECENTLY CONFIRMED THEIR ASSESSMENT THAT SINN FEIN IS STILL OVERSEEN BY THE IRA ARMY COUNCIL STILL HOLDS.

>> IT'S FASCINATING.

THE RISE OF SINN FEIN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE IRISH BORDER POLITICALLY IS A FASCINATING STORY.

PART OF IT TO ME IS WITH ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY IN ANOTHER PLACE, YOU MAY SEE A CLEANER BREAK WITH HISTORY.

IN YOUR INTERVIEW WITH ADAMS, HE SAYS I DON'T DISSOCIATE MYSELF FROM THE PEOPLE, BUT NOT LOOKING TO DISTANCE MYSELF FROM THEM IN ANY WAY.

WE FIND OURSELVES IN AN INTERESTING MOMENT WITH SINN FEIN.

THERE'S A SENSE THAT MAYBE WE CAN WHITE WASH THE PAST, MOVE BEYOND IT WITHOUT DISOWNING THE WORST THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

IT'S KIND OF AN OPEN QUESTION WHETHER THEY WILL SUCCEED AS A VIABLE POLITICAL PARTY BEING ABLE TO DO THAT.

IN BEING ABLE TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE NO APOLOGIES, NOT ACTUALLY REVISIT IN ANY OPEN WAY THE WORST OF THE EXTREMES OF THE TROUBLES, BUT INSTEAD STICK WITH THE TALKING POINTS AND BECOME A DIFFERENT SORT OF PARTY, POST TROUBLES, FOCUSED ON HOUSING AND POCKETBOOK ISSUES FOR VOTERS.

IT'S A QUESTION VERY MUCH A LIVE ONE IN LIGHT OF THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

>> IT'S FASCINATING.

FOR SO MANY, THE PEACE ACCORD STANDS AS A SUCCESS IN OUR TERRIBLE, FRACTURED WORLD AND IS OFTEN POINTED TO AS AN EXAMPLE.

PATRICK, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

"SAY NOTHING," THE BOOK AND NOW THE SERIES.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

> >> WE WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO HIGHLIGHT A STORY OF EXTRAORDINARY COURAGE.

GISELE PELLICO, A SYMBOL OF STRENGTH AND RESISTANCE TO WOMEN EVERYWHERE.

HER RAPE INFAMOUS OVER THE WORLD.

HER HUSBAND DRUGGED HER AND LET MEN RAPE HER FOR YEARS.

HE BRAVED THE PUBLIC AND MEDIA, USING IT TO CALL OUT MISOGYNY AND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS.

SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WAIVE HER RIGHT TO ANONYMITY, BUT OFFERS HOPE TO SURVIVORS.

SHE SAID I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER FEEL AT PEACE UNTIL THE END OF MY LIFE.

I'LL LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT AND REBUILD MYSELF.

ALSO HIGHLIGHTED HOW IT'S TIME THAT THE MACHO PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY THAT TRIVIALIZES RAPE CHANGES AND CHANGE THE WAY WE LOOK AT RAPE.

AS GRAFFITI OUTSIDE THE COURTHOUSE SHOWS, MANY ARE THANKING HER FOR HER BRAVERY.

> >> TO THE U. S. , THE ELECTION HAS HIGHLIGHTED A DISTRUST IN AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

MANY WORKING- CLASS WORKERS VOTED REPUBLICAN DUE TO THE REPUTATION OF THE DEMOCRATS AS THE EDUCATED ELATE.

ELITE.

DAVID BROOKS ARGUES THAT A DYSFUNCTIONAL SYSTEM OF MERITOCRACY IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE AND NEEDS TO BE REDEFINED.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOUR RECENT COVER STORY IN THE "ATLANTIC" DIVES INTO HOW WE HAVE CREATED A SYSTEM OF MERITOCRACY THAT'S NOT WORKING, CREATED A DIPLOMA DIVIDE IN AMERICA.

YOU WRITE THE MERITOCRACY HAS PROVOKED A POPULIST BACKLASH TEARING SOCIETY APART.

THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DIVIDE IS ALONG EDUCATIONAL LINES.

LESS EDUCATED VOTE REPUBLICAN, MORE EDUCATED VOTE DEMOCRAT.

>> IT GROWS OUT OF A CULTURAL DIVIDE.

PEOPLE WITH HIGH SCHOOL DEGREES AND COLLEGE DEGREES ARE LIVING IN DIFFERENT WORLDS.

PEOPLE WITH HIGH SCHOOL DEGREES MORE LIKELY TO BE OBESE, DIE EARLIER, MARRY, HAVE KIDS OUT OF WEDLOCK.

THEY HAVE FEWER FRIENDS.

WE'VE CREATED TWO DIFFERENT AMERICAS.

WE CREATED THAT UNINTENTIONALLY BUT ON PURPOSE.

WE CREATED A WORLD IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO DO WELL IN SCHOOL GET TO GO TO FANCY COLLEGES, MARRY EACH OTHER, INVEST HEAVILY IN THEIR KIDS THAT GO TO FANCILY COLLEGES.

MOVE TO THE SAME 10 OR 12 CITIES, AUSTIN, SAN FRANCISCO, WASHINGTON, AND INHERITED A CASTE STRUCTURE.

AND 50% OF AMERICA LOOKS AT THIS, YOU HAVE TOO MUCH POWER AND YOU'RE NOT THAT COMPETENT.

AND WE'RE GOING TO REVOLT.

THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT.

YOU GO BACK TO THE HARVARD PRESIDENT 100 YEARS AGO.

HOW DOES THAT TRANSLATE INTO THE SITUATION?

>> JAMES CONANCE INHERITED A SITUATION, GETTING INTO HARVARD WAS SUPER EASY IF YOUR DAD WENT TO HARVARD.

PRINCETON, YALE, SCHOOLS LIKE THAT FOR THE PROTESTANT ESTABLISHMENT.

THE IDEAL IN THOSE DAYS WAS TO BE A WELL- BRED MAN.

AND YOU DIDN'T WANT TO STUDY HARD, ECONOMICS WERE NOT IMPORTANT, BUT YOU HAD TO BE SOCIALLY POLISHED.

HE DECIDED IT WAS RIDICULOUS, WE CAN'T ENTER THE 21st CENTURY LED BY THESE PEOPLE AND WE NEED A NEW ELITE.

HE BELIEVED IN S. A. T. TESTS AND GOOD GRADES.

SAID WE'LL PLUCK ALL THE SMART KIDS AND PUT THEM IN HARVARD, YALE, PRINCETON, TO RUN THE SOCIETY WELL.

CREATING A NEW ELITE.

THE PROBLEM IS RICH FAMILIES LEARNED TO GAME THE SYSTEM, AND THE SECOND PROBLEM, HE DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT DEFINITION OF HUMAN ABILITY.

IT WAS ALL IQ.

IF YOU WANT TO BE ASTRO-PHYSICIST, HAVE A HIGH IQ.

BUT THOSE OF US WHO LIVE LIFE KNOW OTHER THINGS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

BEING CURIOUS, HAVING A PASSIONATE DRIVE, BEING A GOOD TEAMMATES, GRATEFUL TO OTHER PEOPLE, DECISIVE TOWARDS YOURSELF.

ALL THE TRAITS HARD TO MEASURE GOT LOPPED OFF.

WE CREATED THIS INHERITED CASTE SYSTEM THAT'S NOT COMPETENT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SELECT ON THE BASIS OF THE REAL SKILLS IN SOCIETY.

>> IS IT OKAY TO ASCRIBE THIS CURRENT SITUATION TO THE MERITOCRACY IN THE AMOUNT THAT YOU DO?

MEANING, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU, DAVID BROOKS, GIVING ENOUGH CREDIT TO THE SOCIAL POLICIES THAT MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE COME UP WITH THAT MIGHT HAVE EXACERBATED THE VERY DICHOTOMY IN AMERICA WE'RE DESCRIBING?

IS IT ALL THE MERITOCRACY, AREN'T OTHER THINGS RESPONSIBLE AS WELL?

>> I'M MONOMANIACAL ABOUT THIS, MAYBE I OVERSTATE IT.

BUT A LOT OF THE SOCIAL POLICIES GROW OUT OF THE ASSUMPTIONS OF THE EDUCATED CLASS.

I'M A MEMBER.

I TEACH AT ELITE SCHOOL, DEEP IN THE SYSTEM.

BUT WE DECIDED MOVING TO POST INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY, WE NEEDED AMERICANS TO LOOK LIKE US.

THE EDUCATION POLICIES WERE TO FUNNEL ALL KIDS INTO COLLEGES BECAUSE YOU NEED THE COLLEGE TO GET THE QUOTE JOBS OF THE FUTURE.

IMMIGRATION POLICY, RELATIVELY OPEN BORDER FOR CHEAP FOR US, BUT MORE COMPETITION FOR THE WORKING-CLASS.

AND A LOT OF JOBS WERE SHIPPED OVERSEAS.

NOT JOURNALIST, BUT LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, SHOP CLASS WAS AN OPTION, AND YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE FLUMMOXED BY THE IDEA OF TEACHING CARPENTRY AT HIGH SCHOOL.

WE AS A CULTURE DECIDED NOT TO INVEST IN THOSE TRACKS FOR SECONDARY AND PRIMARY EDUCATION.

>> USED TO TRAIN SHOP CLASS, MORE ARTS EDUCATION.

USED TO BE THE COURTESY CLUB, PEOPLE TAUGHT SOCIAL SKILLS.

WE DO A LITTLE IN SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL LEARNING, NOT AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD.

WE TOOK ONE FORM OF INTELLIGENCE, THE ABILITY TO DO WELL IN SCHOOL, SAID THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.

YOU GET STRAIGHT As, THAT'S THE PERSON WE WANT TO PROMOTE.

AND BY 9 OR 10 YEARS OLD, THE KIDS KNOW THE SCHOOL THINKS I'M SMART AND PUT INTO THE PRESSURE COOKER, OR I'M DUMB AND I'M PROBABLY MENTALLY CHECKING OUT.

IT'S WRONG TO SORT KIDS AT THAT EARLY AGE, ESPECIALLY BY A NARROW AND BOGUS CRITERIA.

THE MERITOCRACY IS BASED ON THE NON SEQUITUR THAT DOING WELL AT SCHOOL IS THE SAME AS DOING WELL AT LIFE.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE GRADES AND LIFE OUTCOMES IS ESSENTIALLY TRIVIAL.

THERE WAS A STUDY, SOMEBODY LOOKED AT THOUSANDS OF CASES OF PEOPLE FIRED FROM THEIR JOB, AND WHY.

11% OF THE CASES BECAUSE THEY LACKED INTELLIGENCE OR TECHNICAL SKILLS.

89% OF CASES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE BAD TEAMMATES, HARD TO COACH, DIDN'T TRY HARD, WEREN'T CALM UNDER PRESSURE.

THESE ARE NONCOGNITIVE SKILLS.

THEY'RE HARD TO COUNT.

TO ME THEY'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE AND OUR SCHOOLS HAVE SHUNTED THEM OFF TO THE SIDE.

>> WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS SOMEWHAT SIMPLE IDEA, THAT'S STAYED AROUND BECAUSE IT'S A SIMPLE IDEA, THAT NUMBER ONE PEOPLE GO TO NUMBER ONE SCHOOLS?

THAT THERE IS A PURPOSE IN HAVING BASELINE STANDARDIZED MEASUREMENTS TO SORT.

>> WELL, IT JUST DOESN'T -- NUMBER ONE PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY GO TO NUMBER ONE SCHOOLS.

HIGH IQ, GOOD.

1600 S. A. T. s WILL HELP YOU IN LIFE, PROBABLY LEAD TO HIGHER JOBS AND INCOMES.

BUT A STUDY THAT LOOKED AT SUPER SMART PEOPLE OVER THEIR LIFETIMES, AND THEY DID FINE, DOCTORS AND LAWYERS, TOP 1%.

NONE WERE GENIUSES, NONE WERE CREATIVE.

IT'S NOT THE SAME AS CREATIVITY AND GOOD JUDGMENT.

THEY'RE REALLY GOOD CONFIRMING TO THEMSELF THAT THEIR FALSE IDEAS ARE TRUE.

THERE'S A LOT ASIDE FROM THAT.

A STUDY SOMEBODY DID OF STUDENTS, GAVE THEM CONSULTING PROBLEMS AS IF IN A CONSULTING FIRM.

IVY LEAGUE KIDS DID ONLY A TINY AMOUNT BETTER THAN THE OTHER KIDS.

ADAM GRANT TOOK THE RESULTS AND CALCULATED THAT A YALE GRAD IN CONSULTING PROBLEMS DID 1.

9% THAN A GRAD FROM CLEVELAND STATE.

THAT'S NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE.

PARENTS OF HIGH SCHOOL JUNIORS THINK THERE'S AN AWESOME DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRINCETON AND PENN OR BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, PENN STATE AND PENN, OR WILLIAMS COLLEGE AND SOME OTHER COLLEGE.

BUT THESE --THIS IS A STATUS SYSTEM THAT REALLY HAS NO CORRELATION IN REALITY.

>> I HAVEN'T MET ANY COLLEGE ADMINISTRATORS IN MY TIME REPORTING ON HIGHER EDUCATION WHO ARE HAPPY WITH THE RANKINGS AND HOW DISPROPORTIONATE THAT NUMBER FACTORS INTO HOW PROSPECTIVE PARENTS THINK.

BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY AN IDEA THAT'S CREPT IN, BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE MINDS OF THOSE PARENTS, LOOK THIS IS THE SYSTEM THAT HAS CREATED THIS AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR GOOD AS WELL AS THE THINGS YOU DESCRIBE.

RIGHT?

>> AS I SAY, I WENT TO THESE SCHOOLS AND NOW TEACH AT ONE.

TAUGHT FOR 20 YEARS AT DIFFERENT ELITE COLLEGES AND THEY'RE AWESOME PLACES FILLED WITH AWESOME PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE CURRENTLY IN THEM ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY'RE PART OF A SYSTEM ESTABLISHED 70 OR 80 YEARS AGO AND WE'RE ALL STUCK IN THE SYSTEM.

MOST OF US ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE SYSTEM, SO PARENTS, A LOT OF PARENTS THINK THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE PUT ON THEIR KIDS IN JUNIOR AND SENIOR YEAR IN HIGH SCHOOL BUT THEY CAN'T UNILATERALLY DISARM BECAUSE THE NEIGHBOR DOWN THE STREET MIGHT BE A TIGER MOM MAKING HER KIDS COMPETE.

YOU CAN'T WITHDRAWAL.

THE ADMISSIONS OFFICERS DON'T LIKE THE SYSTEM, BUT THEY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE EXCLUSIVELY, REJECTING CERTAIN PEOPLE, THE MEDIAN S. A. T. SCORE.

THEY'RE TRAPPED IN THE SYSTEM.

TEACHERS DON'T LIKE TEACHING TO THE TEST, BUT STANDARDIZED TESTS HAVE BECOME A MAIN FORCE OF THIS SYSTEM, THAT THEY HAVE TO TEACH TO THE TEST.

TO ME, THE ONLY WAY TO FIX THE MERITOCRACY IS CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF MERIT.

>> TAKE DAVID BROOKS' IDEA, RUN ITS COURSE, NEXT YEAR THE ADMISSIONS COUNSELLORS SAY HOW DO I IMPLEMENT THIS.

IF I WANT TO DEEMPHASIZE IQ OR TEST SCORE AND START MEASURING FOR THINGS THAT BROOKS IS OUTLINING, COURAGE AND GRIT AND SENSE OF PURPOSE AND HOW GOOD OF A TEAMMATE YOU ARE, HOW DO WE START TO THINK ABOUT RESTRUCTURING THE SYSTEM AND MEASURING APPROPRIATELY?

>> FIRST NEED TO MAKE SCHOOLS NOT THE SORTING SYSTEM OF SOCIETY.

YOU CAN'T TELL A PERSON'S POTENTIAL AT AGE 18, YOU JUST CAN'T.

YOU'RE CREATING A BOGUS SYSTEM.

SECOND THING, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS OUR HIGH SCHOOLS AND ELEMENTARY AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS ORIENTED THEMSELVES TO FEED INTO THIS SYSTEM, GRADES, AP TESTS AND S. A. T. s ARE WHAT MATTER PRIMARILY.

SOME SCHOOLS HAVE WAYS OF DOING EDUCATION THAT'S DIFFERENT.

ONE OF THE MODELS I DESCRIBE, ALL ARE OUT THERE AND MOST TEACHERS LOVE THEM, WOULD LOVE TO TRANSFER.

ONE MODEL IS PROJECT-BASED EDUCATION.

THERE ARE NO GRADES, NO CLASS PERIODS, YOU'RE PART OF A TEAM, YOU'RE GIVEN A BIG PROJECT TO WORK ON.

THERE'S A SCHOOL I SAW A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT RECENTLY, SOME OF THE STUDENTS WERE IN A TEAM AND HAD TO ANALYZE WHY DO CIVILIZATIONS DECLINE, AND NOT ONLY ANALYZE IT, BUT BUILD A WOODEN GIZMO WITH CHARTS WITH ALL THE FACTORS.

THINKING ABOUT A PROBLEM TOGETHER, WORKING WITH THEIR HANDS AND THINKING TOGETHER.

THAT'S MORE LIKE IT.

YOU HAVE GRADES AND SCORES BUT ALSO A PORTFOLIO OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

SOME SCHOOLS HAVE THE PORTFOLIO DEFENSE, GET THE STUDENTS IN FRONT OF A TEAM OF TEACHERS AND ASK THEM WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS OR THAT DECISION.

THAT'S MORE HOW THE WORKPLACE WORKS.

WHEN YOU GET THAT KIND OF SCHOOL, YOU'RE NURTURING INITIATIVE, WORKING ON TEAMS, HAVING DESIRE, BEING CURIOUS, BEING ABLE TO WORK HARD THROUGH A DIFFICULT PROBLEM, CULTIVATING THAT.

AND YOU CAN'T QUANTIFY IT.

BUT YOU CAN CREATE A BIOGRAPHY OF THE PERSON AND THEN THAT CAN BE SENT TO SCHOOLS AND THEY CAN FIND THE RIGHT PERSON.

WE'D HAVE GREATER DIVERSITY OF EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS CATERING TO A GREATER DIVERSITY OF HUMAN ABILITIES.

>> WE HAD MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS ON THE PROGRAM, WHAT'S INTRIGUING WHEN WE LISTEN TO THE STATISTICS OF HOW LIKELY YOU ARE TO GET INTO COLLEGE IF YOUR PARENTS WENT TO AN ELITE COLLEGE, MAKES YOU LOOK AT THIS AND SAY IS IT MERITOCRATIC SYSTEM IF IT'S TILTED TO LEGACIES?

>> IT'S INHERITED MERITOCRACY.

ALL THE CONTRIBUTIONS THAT THE EDUCATED PARENTS MAKE TO THEIR KIDS, EDUCATION, OBOE PRACTICE, TRAVEL, TEAMS.

THEY INVEST INTO THOSE KIDS AND IF YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T COMPETE.

BY EIGHTH GRADE THE CHILDREN OF THE AFFLUENT ARE FOUR GRADES AHEAD.

BY HIGH SCHOOL THEY HAVE WAY HIGHER S. A. T. SCHOOLS.

IT'S A SYSTEM YOU CAN GAME.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS --THE REASON HIS WORK IS VALUABLE, REMINDING US OF THE IMPORTANCE --WE'RE SCHOOL OBSESSED AND SHOULD BE COMMUNITY OBSESSED.

HE TALKS ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES CREATE RADICALLY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF SOCIAL MOBILITY, AND IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME.

AMERICAN CHILD SPENDS 13% OF TIME IN SCHOOL, 87% IS SPENT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

THE NEIGHBORHOOD MATTERS.

AND HIS RESEARCH SHOWS ALL SORTS OF UNEXPECTED THINGS.

CROSS-CLASS FRIENDSHIPS.

IF YOU HAVE A FRIEND FROM A DIFFERENT SOCIAL CLASS, THAT SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES YOUR SOCIAL MOBILITY.

BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND MAY SHOW YOU DIFFERENT FORMS OF LIFE YOU DON'T SEE IN YOUR IMMEDIATE EXPERIENCE, MAY HAVE IDEAS FOR YOU TO GET INTO A SCHOOL, PURSUE A CAREER.

THAT SUPER MATTERS.

ARE THERE FATHERS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD?

DOESN'T HAVE TO BE YOUR OWN.

A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH FATHERS AROUND, THE GUYS HAVE A ROLE MODEL TO FOLLOW IN LIFE.

NEIGHBORHOOD EFFECTS ARE SUPER IMPORTANT AND NOT THINK ABOUT --AS WE THINK WHO BENEFITS FROM SOCIETY, IT'S NOT JUST THE SCHOOL, IT'S THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND FAMILY, THE SOFT SKILLS, NONCOGNITIVE, BUT IMPORTANT SKILLS.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER THROUGHLINE IN YOUR ESSAY, YOU SEEM TO BE ADVOCATING FROM A SHIFT FROM THE ME MODEL TO US MODEL.

YOU WRITE QUOTE WE WANT A SOCIETY RUN BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SMART, YES, BUT ALSO WISE, PERCEPTIVE, CARING, RESILIENT AND LOOKING FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

IN AMERICA OF 2024, IS THAT SOMETHING TO TILT TOWARD?

CULTURAL FORCES ALL SEEM ALIGNED TOWARDS AN IDEA OF EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES.

IT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

>> THAT'S THE CULTURE OF INDIVIDUALISM WE'VE HAD AT THE SAME TIME.

I WOULD SAY BACK TO POST WORLD WAR II PERIOD.

I THINK WE'VE HAD 60 YEARS OF HYPER INDIVIDUALISM, RIGHT WING WHICH IS ECONOMIC, OR PROGRESSIVE INDIVIDUALISM, WHICH IS ABOUT LIFESTYLE.

WE'VE HAD A LOT OF INDIVIDUALISM AND CREATED MORE FREEDOM FOR OURSELVES, WHICH IS GREAT, BUT ALSO WEAKENED THE TIES BETWEEN EACH OTHER.

MY VIEW RIGHT NOW, OUR POLITICAL MOMENT, RIGHT AND LEFT, WE DECIDED WE NEED MORE COMMUNITY, BUT WE'RE HAVING A BIG FIGHT OVER WHAT COMMUNITY WE PREFER.

MAGA PREFERS HIGHLY NATIONALIZED, MAYBE PATRIARCHAL COMMUNITY.

PROGRESSIVES WANT A COMMUNITY BASED ON ETHIC IDENTITY.

THE LAST TUMULTUOUS YEARS HAVE BEEN CULTURAL.

CHOPPING AT THE SYSTEM OF NARCISSISM AND TRYING TO MOVE TOWARD A DIFFERENT COMMUNAL CULTURE AND SEARCHING FOR A COMMUNITY TO BUILD THAT WILL BE HEALTHY.

>> DAVID BROOKS, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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