November 2, 2020

> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'FUL HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS SOON AS THAT ELECTION IS OVER, WE'RE GOING IN WITH OUR LAWYERS.

EVERY GENERATION HAS TO FIGHT TO KEEP DEMOCRACY.

I NEVER THOUGHT WE'D HAVE TO FIGHT THIS HARD THOUGH.

AS ONE PHASE OF THE AMERICAN ELECTION ENDS AND ANOTHER BEGINS, I SPEAK TO TIM ALBERTA ABOUT TRUMPISM AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WHERE DOES THE GOP END UP?

THEN --

FEAR, ANXIETY AND VIOLENCE ARE INEXTRICABLY INTERTWINED.

THE SOUL OF THE COUNTRY.

THE HISTORIAN'S DOCUMENTARY.

I ADMIRE SENATOR OBAMA AND HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

I WILL RESPECT HIM AND I WANT, NO, NO, I WANT EVERYONE TO BE RESPECTFUL.

REMEMBERING DECENCY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO JONN McCAIN'S CLOSEST AID, MARK SALTER, AUTHOR OF THE LUCKIEST MAN.

> 'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE PERHAPS ON.

THIS LAST DAY BEFORE THE LAST DAY OF VOTING, FORMALLY KNOWN AS ELECTION DAY, AMERICA STANDS AT A CROSS ROADS.

AMIDST SABRE RATTLING FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN ABOUT CHALLENGING THE RESULTS.

THE GOVERNOR OF THE IMPORTANT SWING STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA APPEARS IN AN UNUSUAL PSA YOU KNOWING PATIENTS FROM THE PARTIES, THE PEOPLE AND PRESUMABLY THE MEDIA NOT TO PREMATURELY CALL THE ELECTION.

FOLKS, FAMILY AND FRIENDS ARE WORKING HARD, ENSURING EVERY SINGLE VOTE IS COUNTED.

SO IT MAY TAKE A LITTLE LONGER THAN WE'RE USED TO.

EVEN A FEW DAYS.

THAT'S OKAY.

IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOUR VOTE IS COUNTED.

AND IT WILL BE.

VOTERS HAVE ALREADY CAST A GONE SMACKING 95 MILLION VOTES INCLUDING 2.4 MILLION MAIL-IN VOTES IN PENNSYLVANIA.

NEARLY TEN TIMES AS MANY AS BACK IN 2016.

THE TSUNAMI OF EARLY BALLOTS WAS LAUNCHED BY THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AS MOST AMERICAN STATES NOW FACE RECORD HIGH NEW CASES AND THE NUMBERS CONTINUE TO RISE.

MEANWHILE, JOE BIDEN AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SPRINTED THROUGH THEIR APPEARANCES BETWEEN VISITING PENNSYLVANIA, NORTH CAROLINA, OHIO, MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN.

MY FIRST GUEST AND I ON THE EVE OF AN ELECTION THE WHOLE WORLD IS SWACHING TIM ALBERTA, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR POLITICO, AND AN EXPERT ON THE EVOLUTION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY UNDER DONALD TRUMP.

HE IS JOINING US FROM HIS HOME STATE OF MICHIGAN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU'VE BEEN REALLY DOING A DEEP DIVE FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS.

YOU'VE WRITTEN BOOKS, YOU'VE DONE THE REPORTING, YOU'VE TALKED TO MANY, MANY REPUBLICANS OF ALL STRIDES AND OTHERS.

NONETHELESS, I'M REALLY INTERESTED TO KNOW HOW YOU'RE FEELING ON THE EVE OF THIS ELECTION RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, WHAT I'M STRUCK BY IS THAT WIN OR LOSE, THE PRESIDENT'S COALITION OF VOTERS TODAY ON THE EVE OF THIS RE-ELECTION LOOKS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN IT DID FOUR YEARS AGO.

THERE HAS BEEN ANY AT OF MYTHOLOGIZING OF THE WHITE WORKING CLASS IN MIDDLE AMERICA WHO WAS LEFT BEHIND BY BOTH THE PARTIES, THIS OUTSIDER, THIS INSURGENT, THIS REBEL WHO WAS WILLING TO STICK IT TO WASHINGTON IN A WAY THAT THEY HAD THEMSELVES BEEN WANTING TO DO FOR SO LONG.

IT IS NOT IN DISPUTE THAT THEY WERE THE BEATING HEART OF DONALD TRUMP'S BASE.

WHAT WE OFTEN OVERLOOK IS HOW THE PRESIDENT IN 2016 WON THAT ELECTION VERY NARROWLY WITH THE BENEFIT OF A COALITION OF VOTERS, INCLUDING SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT FROM COLLEGE EDUCATED SUBURBANITES.

SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT FROM INDEPENDENTS, FROM SENIORS OVER THE AGE OF 65.

YOU FAST FORWARD FOUR YEARS, ALL OF THOSE KEY PIECES OF THE COALITION HAVE FADED CONSIDERABLY IN TERMS OF THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE PRESIDENT.

SENIORS WERE A GROUP THEY CARRIED IN THE LAST ELECTION.

HE IS NOW IN ALMOST EVERY POLL AND THE POLLING AVERAGES TRAILING ANYWHERE 7 TO FINAL POINTS.

THAT'S A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT SWING.

THE SAIL STORY WITH COLLEGE EDUCATED WHITE SUBURBANITES OUTSIDE DETROIT IN MICHIGAN, OUTSIDE MILWAUKEE AND WISCONSIN, OUTSIDE PHILADELPHIA IN PENNSYLVANIA.

THESE WERE THE STATES.

THEY WERE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE BETWEEN A WIS AND A LOSS FOUR YEARS AGO.

TRUMP CARRIED THOSE THREE STATES BY A COMBINED 77,744 VOTES.

SO HE'S WORKING WITH SUCH A SMALL MARGIN OF ERROR THAT ANY BLEEDING OF THOSE VOTERS FROM FOUR YEARS AGO IS GOING TO DO REAL DAMAGE TO HIM.

THE QUESTION HAS BEEN, AND WILL BE, THROUGH ELECTION EVE, HAS THE PRESIDENT FOUND ADDITIONAL VOTERS AND BROUGHT THEM OUT?

WE CERTAINLY KNOW THERE IS BEEN A RECORD LEVEL OF EARLY VOTING AND I GUESS WE DON'T PARTICULARLY KNOW HOW THAT FALLS DOWN BETWEEN PARTIES AND THE CANDIDATES.

WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS ABOUT THE AREA OF EXPERTISE.

AND WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW, WHAT IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

YOU MADE SOME PRETTY, KIND OF BOLD STATEMENTS WHICH ARE GONE SMACKING.

IT IS DEFINED PRIMARILY BY ITS CONFLICT WITH NO GUIDING IDEOLOGY OR ORGANIZING PRINCIPLES.

ONE OF THE SENATORS SAID TO YOU, THE PARTY OF LINCOLN AND REAGAN OUGHT TO HAVE SOMETHING BIG AND BOLD TO OFFER THE COUNTRY.

BUT IT'S GOT WAY TOO MANY GRIFTERS SELLING GRIEVANCE POLITICS.

TELL ME WITH THAT.

HOW DID IT GET THAT WAY?

WELL, IT'S A LONG STORY.

AND I CAN BE AS BRIEF AS POSSIBLE TRYING TO EXPLAIN IT.

I THINK THAT TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY IS A CONSEQUENCE.

NOT A CAUSE.

IT IS A SYMPTOM OF SOMETHING DEEPER THAT IS WRONG IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IN AMERICAN POLITICS, IN AMERICAN CULTURE.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ABLE TO EXPLOIT WHEN HE FIRST RAN FOR THE PRESIDENCY WAS A POWER VACUUM IN A PARTY THAT REALLY HAD LOST ITS SENSE OF PROPORTION, ITS SENSE OF IDEOLOGICAL MODERATION.

AND A PARTY THAT HAD BEEN KIND OF PUSHED TO THE EXTREME AND HAD BEGUN TO CANNIBALIZE ITSELF IN THE POST GEORGE W. BUSH ERA.

AND DONALD TRUMP EXPLOITED THAT POWER VACUUM.

HE SAW THAT THE PARTY WAS RUDDERLESS AND LARGELY LEADERLESS.

AND BY SHEER FORCE OF WILL, AND FORCE OF PERSONALITY, BY MAKING BIG SWEEPING CLAIMS, BY TAPG INTO THAT GRIEVANCE THAT SENATOR SASS WAS TALK ABOUT, THE ECONOMIC GRIEVANCE, THE RESENTMENT FOR THE POLITICAL ELITE IN THE COUNTRY.

DONALD TRUMP WAS ABLE TO NOT ONLY TAKE OVER THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT WAS ABLE TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

THE QUESTION WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE AT THAT POINT, WOULD HE GOVERN IN A WAY THAT WOULD COURSE CORRECT THAT TRAJECTORY THAT THE GOP WAS ON OR WOULD HE GOVERN IN A WAY THAT WOULD MAKE IT EVEN MORE STARK IN TERMS OF THE CONTRAST BETWEEN NOT JUST THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF THIS ERA VERSUS JUST TEN OR 20 YEARS AGO.

SO WHAT YOU SEE NOW IS A PARTY THAT IS LITTLE MORE THAN A CULT OF PERSONALITY.

AT THIS YEAR'S REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION, THERE WAS A DECISION MADE NOT TO WRITE A PLATFORM FOR THE PARTY AND THAT'S AN HISTORICAL ANOMALY.

WE'VE NEVER SEEN, AT LEAST IN THE MODERN ERA OF THE PARTIES NOT TAKE OPPORTUNITY TO PUT PEN TO PAPER AND TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR.

THIS IS WHAT WE REPRESENT.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE FIGHTING FOR.

AND THIS IS OUR VISION FOR GOVERNING THE COUNTRY OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS IF YOU WOULD TRUST WITH US THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

INSTEAD WHAT THEY DID WAS SAY, WE ARE THE PARTY OF TRUMP.

AND THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

SO WHAT IS TRUMPISM?

HE FITTED RIGHT INTO THAT SPACE.

HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE IT?

AND DOES IT SURVIVE EVEN IF HE LOSES?

DOES IT SURVIVE?

I THINK IT DOES.

WHAT TRUMPISM HAS TO BE UNDERSTOOD TO BE, A MARRIAGE BETWEEN AN ECONOMIC POPULISM AND A RESENTMENT THAT TO SOME DEGREE IS LEGITIMATE.

PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO FEEL THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT BEEN RESPONSIVE TO THEIR NEEDS AND THEY HAVE LEFT THEM BEHIND AND LOOKED OUT FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS INSTEAD OF THE INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IT IS THAT LENT THING WEDDED WITH A VERY DISPROPORTIONATE AND DANGEROUS AMOUNT OF ANGER, OF HE RACISM, OF OTHERISM.

TO STIGMATIZE THAT WHICH IS DIFFERENT.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE IS TAP INTO BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY BUT REALLY FUSE THEM TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT LEAVES MANY OF HIS OWN SUPPORTERS FEELING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE LATTER.

UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE ANGER, WITH THE TWEETS, UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE RACISM AND THE NEGATIVISM AND THE NAME CALLING.

AND YET THEY REMAIN SUPPORTIVE OF HIM BECAUSE THEY THINK HE IS THE ONLY POLITICIAN WHO SPEAKS TO THE OTHER PART, THE POPULISM POLICIES AND BELIEVE HE IS FIGHTING IN A WAY THAT OTHERS WILL NOT.

SO THE QUESTION IS HE WHO CAN TAP INTO THE FIRST PART, MAKING THE PARTY A BROADER, MORE WELCOMING, MORE ASPIRATIONAL AND INCLUSIVE COALITION TYPE PARTY THAT CAN SPEAK TO THOSE ECONOMIC CONCERNS.

I WANT TO GET TO THAT.

I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT UP.

HIS PEOPLE BELIEVE HE IS THEON ONE WHO WILL WORK FOR THEY WILL.

HAS HE THOUGH?

MOST ANALYSIS SEEMS TO BE THAT BITS THE KUFLT PERSONALITY.

IT IS ABOUT ME ALL THE TIME.

AND MANY OF THE PROMISES, IF NOT MOST, HAVE NOT BEEN KEPT.

THE ONE THING WE HAVE LEARNED OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS IN AMERICAN POLITICS IS THAT VOTERS ARE DRIVEN FAR MORE BY EMOTION AND CULTURAL SENSE OF SORT OF AFFILIATION WITH CANDIDATES AND WITH CAUSES.

THEY ARE DRIVEN BY THAT FAR MORE THAN BY POLICY.

AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND DONALD TRUMP'S GRIP ON SO MANY VOTERS.

THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY EVALUATING HIM ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY BENEFIT FROM HIS TAX CUTS.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY BENEFIT FROM HIS DECISIONS ON FOREIGN POLICY.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY BENEFIT ON HIS NEGOTIATIONS WITH CHINA AND THE TRADE WAR THAT HAS BEEN ONGOING DURING THIS PRESIDENCY.

LARGELY, EVEN IN CASES WHEN THOSE THINGS DETRIMENTAL TO THEM.

THEY FIND THEMSELVES BELIEVING THAT TRUMP IS FIGHTING FOR THEIR WAY OF LIFE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, WHEN THERE ARE PROTESTS IN THE STREETS.

WHEN THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THE LEFT CALLING TO DEFUND THE POLICE.

WHEN THERE IS A FIGHT OVER THE CONFEDERATE FLAG AND MONUMENTS BEING TAKEN DOWN IN PUBLIC SQUARES.

WHEN THERE IS A PERCEIVED BATTLE OVER PATRIOTISM IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THIS IDEA THAT YOU HAVE CERTAIN SINISTER ELEMENTS IN THE AMERICAN POLITICAL ARENA THAT ARE HOSTILE, THAT DONALD TRUMP IS FIGHTING FOR THOSE PEOPLE, FOR THOSE VALUES.

HE IS FIGHTING FOR RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, FOR THEIR WAY OF LIFE.

THAT IS SUCH A DIFFICULT THING ON QUANTIFY, TO ATTACH ANY SORT OF OBJECTIVE METRIC TO.

ON THE POLICY FRONT THEY MAY BE HURTING THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS BY VOTING FOR THE PRESIDENT BUT THEY BELIEF ON A CULTURAL LEVEL, IN A MUCH MORE VISCERAL WAY, THE PRESIDENT DOES REPRESENT THEM.

DO YOU SEE MODERATE OR CONSERVATIVES IN THE OWED TRADITION BEING ABLE TO REBUILD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

SO MANY MODERATES HAVE BEEN BURNED AND HAVE LOST OR LEFT THE PARTY.

I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS.

IN THE SHORT TERM.

I BELIEVE WHETHER DONALD TRUMP LOOSSS BY TEN VOTES OR BY 10 MILLION VOTES, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL BE AN ENTITY DEFINED BY ITS EXTREMES BIFFLE ITS FRINGES.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE IF THE PARTY IS WIPED OUT AT THE BALLOT BOX THIS FALL, THE FIRST MOST IMMEDIATE THING YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT THE PARTY'S IDEOLOGICAL ENERGY WILL BE ALL THE MORE CONCENTRATED IN THE MOST TRUMP FRIENDLY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

THE MOST TRUMP FRIENDLY STATES, CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

THE ONLY PEOPLE LEFT STANDING AFTER THAT SORT OF A WIPEOUT ELECTION ARE THE PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE VOTERS WHO ARE THE MOST IMPASSIONED.

THE VOTERS WHO ARE THE MOST LOYAL.

SO I DON'T THINK YOU'LL EA SUDDEN ABOUT FACE IN THE PARTY.

THE REMAINING PUBLIC OFFICIALS, AND THE BULK OF THE POLITICAL CLASS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL STILL BE TETHERED TO THE MOST TRUMP LOYAL DISTRICTS AND STATES.

THAT BEING THAT, OVER THE LONGER MATERIAL, DO I BELIEVE THAT POLITICAL PARTIES EXIST FOR THE PURPOSE OF SELF-PRESERVATION.

AND AFTER YOU HAVE LOST ONE OR TWO OR THREE ELECTIONS, THE APPETITE FOR REFORM AND REBRANDING IN A PARTY WILL GET TO BE TOO MUCH.

EVEN FOR THE GRIP THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS EXERCISED OVER THE GOP.

SO IN THE SHORT TERM I THINK IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT TO TURN THE PAGE ON TRUMPISM.

BUT SOONER OR LATER, IT IS AN INEVITABILITY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK REPUBLICAN THERE'S DO IF HE LOSES?

IF HE STARTS TO CHALLENGE AND DOESN'T GIVE THE USUAL CONCESSION SPEECH.

WELL, IN THAT REGARD I THINK IT MATTERS WHETHER IT IS 10 VOTES OR 10 MILLION.

IF THE PRESIDENT, A WEEK FROM NOW, I THINK IT WILL BE A WEEK BEFORE WE HAVE A CLEAR IDEA.

NOT JUST A COUPLE OF THE SWING STATES BUT ALL THE SEVEN OR EIGHT STATES THAT ARE GOING TO DETERMINE THIS ELECTION ABOUT HALF OF THOSE STATES WILL BE COUNT GO THEIR BALLOTS VERY SLOWLY.

IN MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA.

THERE ARE GOING TO BE FOUR OR FIVE-DAY LONG COUNTING PROCESSES BECAUSE OF NEW RULES THAT ARE IN PLACE IN THOSE STATES.

SO THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING ON RECOGNIZE.

AND THOSE DELAYS WILL FUEL THE PRESIDENT AND HIS PARTY'S ACCUSATIONS OF MALFEASANCE, MANIPULATION, OF A CLASH TO RID THIS ELECTION AGAINST HIM.

WHICH IS NOT ROOTED IN ANY FACTORS.

THERE IS ZERO EVIDENCE THUS FAR OF ANY SORT OF CONSPIRACY TO TRY TO DENY THE PRESIDENT A SECOND TERM.

WHAT YOU SEE IN VERY COMPETITIVE COUNTIES AND STATES, THESE ELECTIONS ARE BEING RUN BY REPUBLICANS.

BY REPUBLICAN COUNTY CLERKS.

AND THEY HAVE TRIED TO IMPRESS UPON THE PUBLIC TO BE PATIENT AND TO WAIT.

WHETHER OR NOT THE PUBLIC WILL OBLIGE THEM IS YET TO BE SEEN BUT THE PRESIDENT WILL BE OUT ON ELECTION NIGHT AND THE DAYS THERE AFTER, MOST LIKELY ATTEMPTING TO NULLIFY AND NEGATE THE BALLOTS THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN COUNTED IN SHORT ORDER.

ANY DELAY THE PRESIDENT WILL USE TO ARGUE THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES IS CORRUPTION IN SLOW MOTION.

WHAT HAPPENS AT THAT POINT?

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THERE'S GREAT FEAR IN MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES THAT THERE WILL BE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE PERHAPS NOT GIVEN ALL THE INFORMATION AND WHO ARE READY TO ACT OUT OF EMOTION, AND WHO COULD TAKE TO THE STREETS HOOFRLT COULD TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

THEY COULD MARCH IN AND DEMAND TO SEE BALLOTS.

WHAT HAPPENS AT THAT POINT IS PRETTY SCARY TO THINK ABOUT.

THERE ARE REPUBLICANS, I WILL TELL YOU, I'VE SPOKEN WITH THEY WILL.

THEY'RE TRYING TO SEE WHAT IT WILL BE TO URGE PEOPLE TO REMAIN CALM, WHO WILL TRY TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST LA THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING OR DOING.

THE THING IS, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO DO THAT IF THE ELECTION IS VERY CLOSE.

IF THE ELECTION IS AS CLOSE AS IT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO, THEN THERE ARE LEGAL RECOURSE THAT'S BOTH PARTIES WILL PURSUE TO TRY TO BENEFIT THEM IN THE COUNTING PROCESS.

IF THE SELECTION A BLOWOUT AND TRUMP IS STILL REFUSING TO ACCEPT DEFEAT, I THINK YOU SEE MANY SENIOR REPUBLICANS STEP FORWARD AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT, AND THEY REALIZE THAT HIS ATTEMPTS TO DELEGITIMIZE HIS DEFEAT IS ALSO AN EFFORT TO DELEGITIMIZE THEIR VICTORIES.

IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN WHO WINS ON TUESDAY NIGHT, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO STAND IN MANY CASES FOR THE PRESIDENT TRYING TO NOT ONLY NULLIFY HIS RACE BUT ALSO NULLIFY YOUR RACE AS WELL.

TIM ALBERTA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

AUTHOR OF AMERICAN CARNAGE, ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE REPUBLICAN CIVIL WAR AND THE RISE OF DONALD TRUMP.

THIS ELECTION MAY FEEL UNPRECEDENTED.

BUT AS THE OLDEST CONTINUING DEMOCRACY, THE UNITED STATES HAS SEEN MORE THAN ITS SHARE OF POLARIZING POLITICS AND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS WHICH IS WHY THE PULITZER PRIZE WINNING HISTORIAN JON MEACHAM IN THE SAYS IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE THE LONG VIEW.

HE DARK SHADOWS AMERICAN HISTORY WITH WHAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN CALLED THE BETTER ANGELS OF OUR NATURE.

HERE'S A LOOK.

WE'RE LIVING IN AN ERA OF POLITICS AS ENTERTAINMENT.

WE HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE.

100 YEARS AGO.

THE GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA WANTED TO BUILD A WALL TO KEEP IMMIGRANTS OUT.

HUH!

WHAT CHANGED EVERYTHING IS PEARL HARBOR.

THE INTERNMENT THE JAPANESE WENT THROUGH IS HISTORY NOW BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDERS FEELS LIKE CURRENT NEWS.

WHAT IS GOING ON TODAY IS SO REMINISCENT.

THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT THOUGHT THE WOMEN COULD ASSISTANT UP AND HAVE SOMETHING WE'RE STILL FIGHTING FOR TODAY.

NOW MEACHAM HAS ENDORSED JOE BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT THIS YEAR.

JON MEACHAM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT ALL DOES SOUND SO OVERWHELMING.

YOU DOING BACK AT LEAST 100 YEARS.

PRESIDENT WOODROW WILSON.

HISTORY TELLS THUS PARTICULAR ERA IS DIFFICULT.

BUT NOT UNIQUE.

WHAT COMFORT SHOULD WE TAKE?

WELL, COMFORT, I HOPE, AN ULTIMATE RESULT.

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SAY DONALD TRUMP IS AN ABERRATION, OR AN ANOMALY, ARE I THINK ENGAGING IN A FORM OF WISHFUL THINKING.

IN MANY WAYS HE IS THE FULLEST MANIFESTATION, RACISM, XENOPHOBIA, THESE ARE THINGS RUN THROUGHOUT THE LIFE OF THE NATION OVER THE LAST 400 YEARS.

CERTAINLY THE LAST 250 YEARS.

A COUNTRY THAT DEALT WITH SLAVERY, LIVED UNDER SEGREGATION EXCLUDED WOMEN, AND 55 YEARS AGO IN MY REGION WE LIVED UNDER FUNCTIONAL APARTHEID.

I'M NOT SAYING BECAUSE THINGS HAVE WORKED OUT IN THE PAST THEY WILL INEVITABLY WORK OUT NOW.

I AM SAYING THAT THERE HAS TO BE ETERNAL VIGILANCE AGAINST THESE FORCES.

AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A SPIKE THIS THESE FORCES.

WE DO BEST NOT WHEN WE GIVE INTO THESE WORST INSTINCTS BUT WHEN WE DO LEAD OUR BETTER ANGELS.

THIS TIME, YOU'RE ENDORSING JOE BIDEN.

WHY IS THAT?

IT IS AN EXISTENTIAL ELECTION.

IT IS CERTAINLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION SINCE 1932 WHICH IN AND OF ITSELF WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT SINCE 1864.

I THINK THAT A FUNDAMENTAL KIND OF DECENCY IS ON THE BALLOT.

I THINK THAT A VALUE AND APPRECIATION OF OUR DEMOCRATIC LOWER CASE D INSTITUTIONS IS ON THE BALLOT, AND THAT I THINK A BIDEN VICTORY IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE A SIGNAL TO THE COUNTRY AND TO THE WORLD THAT IN FACT, DESPITE OUR WORST IMPULSES, DESPITE THESE DARK FORCES THAT HAVE ALWAYS SHAPED US AND ALWAYS WILL, BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS.

WE'RE FALLEN AND FRAIL AND FALLIBLE.

THE COUNTRY WAS FRAMED TO MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT TO DO IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR BECAUSE OF THE FOUNDERS UNDERSTOOD THAT MOSTLY WHAT WE WOULD WANT TO DO WAS BAD.

FUNDAMENTALLY THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION A CALVINISTIC DOCUMENT.

IT ASSUMES WE'RE SINFUL, IT ASSUMES WE'RE DRIVEN BY APPETITE AND AMBITION.

SO WE TRY TO BALANCE THAT.

THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT HAS KNOCKED THOSE CHECKS AND BALANCES OUT OF WHACK.

AND I THINK VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR ALL HIS ILL PERFECTIONS WOULD APPRECIATE RESPECT AND RESTORE THE BEST OF THOSE CHECKS AND BALANCES.

SO LET ME ASK BUT THE BETTER ANGELS PART.

FROM ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

YOU TALK ABOUT POLITICIANS WHO SOMETIMES LEAD THOSE POSITIVE FORCES AND SOMETIMES PANELEDER TO THE WORST.

HERE'S A LITTLE CLIP.

SO OFTEN PEOPLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAVE FELT THEY WERE ON A PRECIPICE.

THEY LASH OUT.

HE SAW HAD IT WITH IMMIGRATION, THE SHIFTING ECONOMY.

HE SAW IT IN THE 1930s.

IT IS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL POLITICAL EMOTION.

IS IT REALLY, REALLY MUCH WORSE THEN THAN IT IS NOW?

PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE CHECKS AND BALANCES AND HOW MUCH MORE EVOLVED WE ARE NOW.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO BE THE FEELING ON THE STREETS DURING THIS ELECTION?

WELL, YOU KNOW, IN AMERICA YOU CAN BASICALLY COUNT ON 30% TO 40% OF THE COUNTRY BEING ELEMENTAL.

THAT IS, HOLDING ON TO THE FORCES.

IT IS A BIG NUMBER.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WON 46% OF THE VOTE IN 2016.

THE NUMBER I'M WATCHING VERY CLOSELY IS WHAT THAT PERCENTAGE IS ONCE THE VOTES ARE ALL COUNTED.

THAT WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING.

IN 2016, YOU COULD APPLAUSEBLY HAVE VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE YOU WERE TIRED OF THE CONSENSUS THAT WAS FORMED, PART OF A FIGURATIVE CONVERSATION BETWEEN POSITIONS HELD BY FDR AND RONALD REAGAN.

YOU COULD HAVE FOUND IT TO BE COMMENSURATE, THAT THE SYSTEM HAD NOT DELIVERED FOR YOU, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE FINANCIAL CRISIS OF 2008, 2009, WHERE WALL STREET BANKERS USED PUBLIC MONEY TO BAIL THEMSELVES OUT.

NOBODY PAID MUCH OF A PRICE.

AND SO ALL THE INGREDIENTS FOR A POPULIST REBELLION ARE IN PLACE.

WHAT WE'RE LIVING WITH NOW ARE THE RESULTS OF THAT POPULIST REBELLION.

WE MIGHT BE HAVING A DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS IN THE ABSENCE OF THE PANDEMIC.

AS RONALD REAGAN SAID 40 YEARS AGO IN A CLOSING ARGUMENT AGAINST JILLY CARTER, ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN FOUR YEARS AGO?

IS IT EASIER TO BUY THINGS IN THE STORES THAN FOUR YEARS AGO?

IS AMERICA AS RESPECTED AND STRONG AROUND THE WORLD AS WE WERE FOUR YEARS AGO?

THAT SERIES OF RHETORICAL QUESTIONS ARE NOT SIMPLY RHETORICAL.

THEY WERE THE RHETORICAL IN THE SENSE, THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR ACTION.

IT SEEMS TO ME THE COURSE WE'RE FACING IS SELF-EVIDENTLY, IN AN ENLIGHTENMENT PROJECT LIKE AMERICA IS AT ITS BEST, REASON DEFEATS PASSION ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU SEND THIS MAN BACK TO THE PINNACLE OF POWER.

THE FORCES THAT WERE UNLEASHED 100 YEARS AGO WITH THE KLAN.

WE HAD FIVE GOVERNORS WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE KLAN.

IN THE 1950s, COLD WAR ANXIETY.

34% OF THE COUNTRY SUPPORTED JOE McCARTHY EVEN AFTER HE WAS CENSURED AND TAKEN FROM POWER.

SO FEAR IS A FORCE HERE.

THERE IS NO MORE UNREASONING EMOTION THAN FEAR.

IF YOU FEEL YOUR BACK IS AT THE PRECEDENCE, YOU WILL DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN NOT TO FALL OFF.

AND TRUMP REPRESENTED A HAND HOLD FOUR YEARS AGO.

TODAY IT IS A MUCH, MUCH HARDER CASE TO MAKE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE FILM, IT BRINGS UP THE PRESS AS WELL, AND WHAT EDWARD R. MURROW DID TO TRY TO COUNTER THAT VIRULENCE, REALLY.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU SAY THAT McCARTHY REALLY ENDED UP BEING MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN LIKE THE MEANS OF FIGHTING COMMUNISM IN THE UNITED STATES, RATHER THAN THE END.

AND IT WAS A BIT LIKE A SHOW FOR HIM.

A WAY TO MAKE HIM VERY VISIBLE.

IF IT WAS THE TWITTER AGE, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THRILLED TO BITS.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT.

WELL, MY SOURCE ON THAT.

AND IT IS NOT MY ANALYSIS OF JOE McCARTHY.

IT IS ROY COMBS.

HE WAS JOE McCARTHY'S LAWYER AND DONALD TRUMP'S.

SO SOMETIMES WHEN YOU'RE IN THIS BUSINESS, SOMETIMES GOD JUST GIVES YOU SOMETHING AND YOU JUST SEMIIT.

RIGHT?

SO ROY PUBLISH AD BOOK LAYING OUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

THAT McCARTHY BOUGHT A USED CAR, ANTI-COMMUNISM.

. OF THE COMMUNIST INFLUENCE AND THERE WAS COMMUNIST INFLUENCE IN THE GOVERNMENT BUT MUCH HAD BEEN TAKEN CARE OF BY A LOYALTY PROGRAM UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMAN THAT ENRAGED CIVIL LIBERTARIANS.

McCARTHY CAPE WILL TO THIS RATHER LATE IN LINCOLN'S BIRTHDAY, 1950.

WHEN HE GAVE HIS FAMOUS SPEECH IN WHEELING, WEST VIRGINIA.

AND COMBS' ANALYSIS WAS THAT PEOPLE GOT TIRED OF THE SHOW.

THAT PEOPLE JUST GOT WARN OUT BY THE HYPERBOLE, BY THE HIS TRONNICS AND BY THE FAILURE TO PRODUCE MUCH.

THERE WAS A LOT OF HEAT BUT NOT A LOT OF LIGHT.

AND I REMEMBER READING THAT IN THE BOOK TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO AND THINKING, APPLY GOD.

THAT'S PRECISELY WHERE WE ARE.

AT SOME POINT EVERY SHOW COMES TO AN END.

ON THE TRAIL, YOU WATCH TRUMP THE LAST COUPLE DAYS.

HE'S NOT A HAPPY WARRIOR HERE.

HE HAS SO DOMINATED THE SPACE.

THAT IS HIS FAVORITE WORD.

DOMINATE, DOMINATE, HE LOVES TO TELL EVERYBODY ELSE TO DOMINATE.

THE MEDIA HAS ALLOWED HIM TO DOMINATE THE PUBLIC SPACE AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE.

AND YOU SAY FOR JOURNALISTS, WHAT HAPPENS IS A VERY, HE SAID HE WASN'T GOING TO REPORT WHAT HE SAID UNLESS THEY CAN VERIFY IT.

HE DID A GREAT JOB TAKING HIM DOWN.

AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME, FOUR YEARS.

HE WAS EVENTUALLY CENSURED.

LET'S SAY TRUMP IS REELECTED.

WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

WE WHO ARE THE GUARDIANS OF THE PUBLIC SPHERE, EXCEPT FOR TWITTER, WHEN HE CAN GO DIRECTLY TO THE PEOPLE.

I'M NOT IN JOURNALISM ANYMORE SO IT IS FREE ADVICE AND IT IS WHAT YOU'RE PAYING FOR IT.

IT WILL BECOME A GENUINE PUBLIC EMERGENCY.

AND AT THAT POINT IT SEEMS TO ME, IT HAS TO CONFRONT THE QUESTION.

THE JUST BECAUSE A PRESIDENT SAYS SOMETHING, DO YOU HAVE TO AMPLIFY IT?

IF IT IS UNTRUE, IS IT ENOUGH TO SAY, HE SAID THIS BUT IT'S NOT TRO.

WE'VE SEEN FACT CHECKING.

IN THE WORLD WE GREW UP, JOURNALISTS WERE THE ONLY ONES FACT CHECKED.

NOW WHOLE INSTITUTIONS CHECK THE PRESIDENT.

IT IS A LITTLE LIKE THE HORSE IS OUT OF THE BARN.

OH, WE SHOULDN'T HAVE LET HIM OUT OF BARN.

IF THE PRESIDENT IS REELECTED, I THINK THAT CREATES A MOMENT OF MORAL CRISIS.

IT WAS USED IN MEDICAL TERMS.

A CRISIS IS THE MOMENT IN A DISEASE WHERE A PATIENT LIVES OR DIES.

THAT'S THE INITIAL MEANING OF THE WORD.

AND ONE SIGN OF HOW IMPORTANT WE HAVE LONG TAKEN OUR PUBLIC LIVES IS THAT WE BORROWED THE LANGUAGE OF HEALTH CARE.

THE BODY POLITIC.

CORRUPTION.

REMEMBER, CORRUPTION WAS NOT GRAFT IN THE BEGINNING.

IT WAS DISEASE.

THE CRISIS THESE INSTITUTIONS WILL FACE AND CITIZENS WILL FACE, NOT JUST INSTITUTIONS, SHOULD WE CONTINUE ON ABET AND ENABLE SOMEONE WHO MAKES THINGS UP AND HISS FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT.

I THINK THE ANSWER IS CLEAR.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THE MEDIA WHICH OFTEN DOES MEA CULPAS CAN FIGURE OUT WHICH WAY IS RIGHT IF HE IS REELECTED IN TERMS OF PUBLIC SPACE.

LET ME ASK YOU TO GO BACK.

THIS IS ABOUT LBJ.

HE OF COURSE SAID WHAT THE HECK IS THE PRESIDENCY FOR IF IT IS NOT TO MAKE THE WORLD, THE NATION A BETTER PLACE.

THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT TAKEN TOGETHER IN '64 AND '65 REPRESENTS WHAT CONCENTRATED ACTS OF CITIZENSHIP CAN DO WHEN THEY INTERSECT WITH THE SKILL OF THOSE IN POWER.

HE LEADED THE WORK OF ROSEA PARKS, JOHN LEWIS, THE WORK OF PEOPLE WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHO STOOD UP IN THE STREETS AND COURTHOUSES AND SCHOOLS.

HE UNDID THE BEST HE COULD AMERICAN APARTHEID.

WHAT LESSONS SHOULD AMERICANS, THE WORLD REALLY TAKE FROM THAT INSTANCE?

FROM THE LBJ ERA?

WE'RE ALWAYS STRONGER THE MORE WISELY WE OPEN OUR ARMS.

AND THAT'S NOT AN IDEOLOGICAL POINT, NOT A PARTISAN POINT.

I VOTED FOR MORE REPUBLICANS THROUGH THE YEARS THAN I HAVE DEMOCRATS.

AS AN HISTORIAN, I KEEP USING THIS JEFFERSONIAN PHRASE WHICH BENJAMIN FRANKLIN PUT IN THE DECLARATION, IT IS SELF-EVIDENT THAT WE CELEBRATE AND COMMEMORATE MOMENTS OF OPENNESS, NOT OF CONSTRICTION.

SO FROM SENECA FALLS TO SELMA TO STONEWALL, THESE ARE MOMENTS WHERE IN AMERICA WE HAVE ACTUALLY BETTER FULFILLED THE PROMISE THAT WAS WRITTEN INTO THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS.

THIS MAY SOUND SLIGHTLY WIGGISH.

BUT AS HENRY KISSINGER, IT IS ALSO TRUE.

WE CELEBRATE LYNDON JOHNSON BECAUSE OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

WE CELEBRATE RONALD REAGAN BECAUSE HE BROUGHT HIS BASE ALONG TO SAY NO.

GORBACHEV IS WORTH BETTING ON AND WE WILL TEND CODE WAR.

WE REMEMBER NIXON WHEN WE REMEMBER HIM FAVORABLY FOR DOING THE SAME THING WITH COLD WARRIORS AND GOING TO CHINA.

WE REMEMBER GEORGE W. BUSH MOST POSITIVELY FOR GOING TO THE MOSQUE IN THE DAYS AFTER 9/11 AND SAYING, THIS IS NOT A WAR AGAINST ALL OF ISLAM.

GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH RESIGNED FROM THE NRA WHEN THEY ISSUED A LETTER IN THE WAKE OF OKLAHOMA CITY.

GREAT LEADERS CHALLENGE THE ASSUMPTIONS OF THEIR MOST FERVENT FOLLOWERS.

AND THAT SIMPLY THE WAY AMERICAN HISTORY HAS UNFOLDED.

SO IN MY MIND IS LESSON IS THAT A PRESIDENT BIDEN, IF THERE IS ONE, WILL HAVE TO GET AHOLD OF THE PANDEMIC AND WILL HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS OF PROSPERITY THAT WILL PROBABLY ALIENATE SOME OF HIS MOST FERVENT SUPPORTERS ON THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT.

BUT THAT IS A NORMAL CONVERSATION.

WHAT I JUST SAID IS A NORMAL AMERICAN OBSERVATION ABOUT OUR POLITICS.

IT PUTS US BACK IN THAT TENSION BETWEEN FDR AND REAGAN.

AND VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, I BELIEVE, IS A FIGURE OF RESTORATION.

THAT HAS VIRTUES AND VICES.

AND THEY'LL BE VERY CLEAR GOING FORWARD.

ON THAT NOTE, JON MEACHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THE SOUL OF AMERICA IS AVAILABLE ON HBO AND HBO MAX.

> DEMOCRATS ARE HOPING ARIZONA MIGHT BE TURNING BLUE THIS YEAR.

THIS WOULD REFLECT THE BIPARTISAN VALUES OF THE LATE SENATOR JOHN McCAIN.

AND FEW KNEW HIM BETTER THAN MARK SALTER, HIS LONG TIME SPEECH WRITER AND CLOSEST AIDE.

HIS NEW BOOK THE LUCK YIFT MAN IS A MOVING AND CANDID LOOK AT HIS FORMER BOSS.

HERE HE IS TALKING TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT IT.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

YOU HAVE THIS BOOK CALLED THE LUCKIEST MAN.

WHEN SENATOR McCAIN STARTED AS A LIAISON.

HE GOT TO BE JOE BIDEN AND A FEW OTHER SENATORS.

TELL ME ABOUT HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH JOE BIDEN.

HE DID.

HE GOT TO KNOW QUITE A FEW OF THEN.

HE WOULD ESCORT A LOT OF MEMBERS OF THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE ON OVERSEAS TRIPS AND GOT TO KNOW QUITE A FEW MEMBERS.

HE AND THE VERY YOUNG SENATOR BIDEN, THEY WERE ROUGHLY THE SAME AGE OR CLOSE.

CLOSE, ANYWAY.

AND HE BECAME VERY FRIENDLY WITH JOE.

HE GOT TO KNOW BOTH BEAU AND HUNTER BIDEN, WHO WERE QUITE YOUNG THEN.

AND NOT FAR REMOVED FROM THE TRAGEDY THAT TOOK THEIR MOTHER AND SISTER.

AND THEY BECAME GOOD FRIENDS.

IT WAS JILL BIDEN WHO URGED JOHN TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF IN HONOLULU.

THAT'S WHERE HE MET HIS WIFE CINDY.

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND THAT WAS JILL'S ENCOURAGEMENT.

THERE WAS A STORY THE WONDERFUL JOURNALIST, THE LATE JOURNALIST BOB TALKED ABOUT ON A TABLE TOP ONE NIGHT IN ATHENS DANCING WITH JOE BIDEN'S TIE AROUND HIS HEAD.

THESE ARE THE TYPES OF STORIES WE NEED THE NIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION.

THAT McCAIN, UNFORTUNATELY, I NEVER GOT TO SEE.

HE MUST HAVE BEEN A WILD MAN ONCE UPON A TIME.

AND HE AND CINDY GOT TO KNOW BEAU BIDEN AND HUNTER BIDEN PRETTY WELL, AND THE WHOLE FAMILY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE AND WHAT DO YOU FEEL CHANNELING JOHN McCAIN AT THE ATTACKS THEY TRIED TO DO ON HUNTER BIDEN?

YEAH.

I MEAN, SOME OF POLITICS, BEAN BAGGING, AS THE EXPRESSION GOES.

YOU GET A LOT OF BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES OFTEN SUFFER THE MOST.

THAT SAID, NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP WHO IS A RECKLESS MAN WITHOUT A CONCERN FOR ANYONE ON THE PLANET OTHER THAN HIMSELF.

I'VE BEEN DISAPPOINTED BY OTHER REPUBLICANS IN ELECTED OFFICE WHO HAVE PITCHED IN TO WHATEVER HUNTER BIDEN HAS TO ANSWER FOR, HE'LL ANSWER FOR.

THERE ARE SOME UNFOUNDED ALLEGATIONS PEOPLE ARE MAKING AND TRAFFIC, BY SENATOR ROB JOHNSON, FOR INSTANCE.

WITHOUT A SHRED OF PROOF.

McCAIN WOULD HAVE BEEN APPALLED, ANGRY.

HE WOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

NO DOUBT.

WHY IS IT NO REPUBLICAN SENATORS HAVE STOOD UP AND DENOUNCED SENATOR RON JOHNSON FOR THESE ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE TOTALLY RECKLESS?

I DON'T KNOW.

IT IS SHAMEFUL THAT THEY HAVEN'T.

WHAT ABOUT LINDSEY GRAHAM?

CLOSE FRIEND OF McCAIN.

HE SEEMS TO BE COWERING THESE DAYS AS IF HE DOESN'T HAVE JOHN KNOCKING STIFFEN HIS BACK BONE.

WELL, HE WAS A CLOSE FRIEND OF JOHN.

JOHN LOVED HIM.

WHATEVER HE THOUGHT OF THE DECISION TO SO THOROUGHLY WILL HE SAID BRACE THE PRESIDENT, I THINK HE WOULD HAVE KEPT THAT TO HIMSELF.

HE FEEL HONOR BOUND NOT TO COMMENT ANY FURTHER ON LINDSEY'S BEHAVIOR.

I DISAGREE WITH IT, OBVIOUSLY.

I THOUGHT HIS ORIGINAL TAKE ON THE PRESIDENT WAS ACCURATE, THAT HE IS UNFIT TO HOLD THE OFFICE.

THAT'S BEEN BORNE OUT ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS.

IT IS VERY HARD THOUGH.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

I'M NOT NAIVE.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TRIM YOUR SALES A LITTLE BIT.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

I'M SURE HE JUSTIFIES IT BY SAYING THAT.

NOBODY CAN, I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

I DON'T THINK IT IS WORTH THE DAMAGE TO YOUR REPUTATION.

YOU TALK ABOUT SENATOR McCAIN'S REACTION TO TRUMP'S CRITICISM OF THE KHAN FAMILY WHO LOST THEIR SON IN IRAQ.

I WAS DRIVING HOME IN MAINE FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE.

I WAS ABOUT FIVE HOURS OUT.

AND HE CALLED ME.

AND HE STARTED SAYING DID I SEE IT, AND I HADN'T.

DO YOU SEE WHAT HE SAID?

DO YOU SEE WHAT HE SAID?

AND THEN HE EXPLAINED WHAT TRUMP HAD DONE.

AND HE SAID I WANT TO UNENDORSE HIM.

I WANT TO OFFICIALLY REFUSE TO ENDORSE HIM.

I SAID I'M FOUR OR FIVE HOURS FROM HOME.

I'LL DRAFT AND IT SEND IT OUT TO YOU AND WE'LL GO FROM THERE.

BY THE TIME I GOT HOLE, IT WAS AN EXTREMELY HARSH CRITICAL STATEMENT BUST TO HOLD BACK AND NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER HE WOULD CONTINUE TO ENDORSE HIM OR NOT.

THE UPSHOT WAS HE WAS UPSET THAT HE DIDN'T.

SO WHEN THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TAPE CAME OUT, HE IMMEDIATELY UNENDORSED HIM AND REFUSED TO REENDORSE HIM FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE THE CAMPAIGN.

HE CALLED McCAIN IN WHAT WAS PROPOSED WAS A FENCE MENDING CALL.

HE WAS EXPECTING AN APOLOGY WHICH WAS NOT FORTHCOMING.

AND EM, THAT REALLY HURT.

HE SAID WHAT DID YOU REALLY HURT THEY WILL.

HE SAID IT WAS OVER THAT ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TAPE.

HE SAID THAT'S WHAT I REALLY UNENDORSED YOU OVER.

DO YOU THINK THAT JOHN McCAIN'S SELECTION OF SARAH PALIN AS A RUNNING MATE IN RETROSPECT ENCOURAGED THE GROWTH OF THIS POPULIST BACK LASH IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

AND THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IF HE HAD PICKED, SAY, JOE LEAN FOR A COALITION TICKET?

I THINK YES, I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE PICKED HIM.

AND SO DID HE.

AND HE SAYS THAT.

THAT THAT, I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

PROBABLY A LITTLE.

IT WAS OBVIOUSLY A TREND THAT WAS HAPPENING EVEN BEFORE 2010.

WE WERE TRENDING IN THAT DIRECTION.

IT WAS A PRECURSOR TO ALL THAT.

SHE WAS NOT PICKED FOR THAT REASON.

SHE WAS PICKED BECAUSE SHE HAD TAKEN ON THE OIL COMPANIES.

IT WAS A CHANGED ELECTION, THE ECONOMY WAS BAD.

PEOPLE WERE TIRED OF THE WAR.

KATRINA, THE NUMBER GOT TO ABOUT 88 AND WE WERE RUNNING AGAINST A GUY WHO PERSONIFIED CHANGE.

IN HIS VERY PERSON.

SO WE HAD TO GET SOME PIECE OF THE CHANGE MENTION AND THAT'S THE WAY HE AND OTHERS ON THE CAMPAIGN VIEWED THE SARAH PALIN BIT.

THE RISK THEY TOOK WAS SHE WASN'T READY.

AND IT TURNED OUT SHE WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT READY FOR IT.

I DON'T THINK IT COST THEM MORE VOTES THAN IT MIGHT HAVE EARNED HIM.

THE BASE WAS NEVER THAT ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT McCAIN BUT DID IT DAMAGE HIS REPUTATION A LITTLE BIT.

HE WANTED TO PICK JOE LEAN AS MANY KNOW.

AND PEOPLE LIKE ME, HIS AIDES, CONVINCED WILL HIM NOT TO BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BLOWN UP AT THE CONVENTION AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN OPPOSITION TO THE PICK OF A PRO-CHOICE DEMOCRAT.

IT WOULD HAVE REALLY, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A DIVIDED PARTY.

SO HE WAS CONVINCED NOT TO DO THAT.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE.

WE SHOULD HAVE LET HIM GO WITH HIS GUT.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM BUT IT WOULD HAVE CAPTURED AMERICAN VOTERS.

ARIZONA IS NOW A BEING STATE.

DO YOU SEE McCAIN'S LEGACY AS PART OF THAT?

YES.

AND McCAIN RECOGNIZED IT WAS COMING THAT WAY.

HE HAD GREAT APPEAL IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

HE ALWAYS HAD A PROBLEM WITH WHAT MIGHT BE VIEWED AS THE HARD CORE TRUMP AIDE.

BEFORE THAT, IT WAS THE ED MEACHAM BASE.

AS HE POINTED OUT IN EVERY IMMIGRATION, HE PUSHED HARD FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM OF THE HE WOULD POINT OUT 60% OF HIGH SCHOOL SENIORS IN ARIZONA ARE HISPANIC.

YOU CAN'T KEEP BASHING HISPANICS AND EXPECT TO HAVE A FUTURE IN POLITICS.

THERE IS A LOT OF MIGRATION FROM OTHER STATES, CALIFORNIA AND ELSEWHERE, AND THE STATE IS PURPLE AND TRENDING BLUE.

THE SAIL THING WILL HAPPEN IN TEXAS.

WE MAY BE SHOCKED ARREST TOMORROW NIGHT TO FIND OUT IT HAPPENED A LOT SOONER THAN WE EXPECTED IT TO.

WHEN TEXAS GOES BLUE, NO REPUBLICAN WILL BE ELECTED PRESIDENT AGAIN.

THE PARTY OUGHT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

THE ROAD THEY'RE ON, THIS WON'T REVERSE THAT TREND LT.

TELL ME ABOUT McCAIN'S VOTE AGAINST THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT AND WHAT YOU THINK IT IMPORTANT TENDS FOR THE WAY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS THIS ONGOING BATTLE AGAINST HE THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

WHEN McCAIN CAME BACK WITH HIG DICE NOTES IT IS AGAINST DOCTOR'S ORDERS, HE STILL HAD A HOLE IN HIS HEAD FROM BRAIN SURGERY.

AND HE MADE HIS REGULAR ORDER SPEECH.

THAT'S WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO GET AT.

HE SAID WHEN WE DO THESE THINGS BY ONE PARTY MUSCLING THESE THROUGH, THEY'RE NEVER PERMANENT.

THEY'RE ALWAYS SUBJECT TO THE NEXT ATTACK.

WHEN NUMBERS CHANGE IN THE SENATE OR A NEW PRESIDENT IS ELECTED.

IF JOE BIDEN IS ELECTED, OUT WILL GO DONALD TRUMP'S TAX CUTS.

AND THE BIDEN TAX BILL WILL TAKE ITS PLACE.

BECAUSE DEMOCRATS, I THINK THEY MADE A HALF HEARTED ATTEMPT TO WORK WITH REPUBLICANS.

I'M SURE SOME OF MY FRIENDS WILL FAULT ME FOR SAYING THAT BUT THEY PASSED IT WITH DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

IT IS ALWAYS SUBJECT TO BEING LITIGATED AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION.

McCAIN SAID IT WAS NOT SOMETHING, PEOPLE DISAGREED WITH IT.

IT WAS A REASONABLY WELL THOUGHT OUT HEALTH CARE ALTERNATIVE TO OBAMACARE.

THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE OUT KEY PARTS OF OBAMACARE AND NOT REPLACE WITH IT ANYTHING.

THAT WAS THE LEGISLATION ON THE FLOOR.

HE SAID THAT'S NOT WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR.

HE UNDERSTOOD QUITE WELL THAT EVEN THOUGH HE RECEIVED A TERMINAL DIAGNOSIS, HE WOULD HAVE THE VERY FINEST MEDICAL CARE AFFORDABLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND THAT MENT MEDICAL CARE WAS NOT AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD GET A DIAGNOSIS LIKE HIS AND THEY WOULD NOT GET THE TREATMENT HE HAD IF THEY WERE ENTITLED TO ADEQUATE HEALTH INSURANCE.

I WENT HOME FROM HIS OFFICE THAT DAY, NOT 100% SURE HE WOULD VOTE AGAINST IT.

REASONABLY SURE HE WAS.

HE DEBATED IT UNTIL HE GAVE THE THUMBS DOWN.

HE READ OUT LOUD THAT HEMMING WAY STORY HE LOVED.

THE SNOWS OF KILIMANJARO.

AT THE END OF IT, THE DYING PERSON SOARS HIGHER.

AND IT IS ALMOST AN ASPIRATIONAL ENDING THAT WE'RE ABOUT SOMETHING LARGER THAN OURSELVES.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU FEEL THAT IS A SENSE OF THE AMERICAN IDEAL AND WHETHER IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE RESTORED IN AMERICA.

I HOPE SO.

THE TIMING OF THAT WAS SO UNUSUAL.

VERY LATE.

IT WAS THE AFTERNOON OF THE DAY OF THE SUBURB OF MINNEAPOLIS WHERE CONFRONTED HIS OWN SUPPORTERS WHO WERE QUESTIONING OBAMA'S PATRIOTISM.

HE PULLED A COLLECTION OF HEMMING WAY STORIES OUT OF HIS BRIEFCASE.

AND HE STARTED TO READ HIS FAVORITE STORY.

IT IS A LONG 9,000 WORDS.

IT TAKES OVER AN HOUR TO READ.

AND HE READ EVERY WORD OF IT.

BY THE TIME HE GOT TO THE END, THE PART YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

HE STARTED TO CRY.

REALLY VERY MOVING.

THERE IS JUST A SMALL GROUP.

CINDY WAS THERE, I WAS THERE, A FEW THE AIDES, AND WE WERE ALL TRANS FIXED BY IT.

IT IS AN ODD THING TO DO.

YOU KNOW WHAT A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN THE FINAL WEEKS ARE LIKE.

THEY'RE LIKE.

THIS YOU'RE BOUNCING AROUND, RALLY TO RALLY, DRINKING CRAPPY FOOD AND DRINKING POTS AND POTS OF COFFEE AND DRINKING TOO MUCH WHISKEY AFTER 1:00 OR SOMETHING.

IT'S NOT A SELF-REFLECTIVE TIME.

THAT WAS A FIRST FOR HIM.

THE PROTAGONIST IN THAT STORY IS LOOKING BACK.

AND MANY PEOPLE READ IT AS A STORY OF REGRETS.

GOING OVER THE CHOICES HE MADE AND WHEN HE'S MADE WRONG ONES.

IT ENDS ON THAT ASPIRATIONAL NOTE.

IT ENDS WITH LIFE.

YOU REDEEM YOUR DEFICIENCIES BY SACRIFICING FOR OTHERS.

THAT'S HOW IT IS DONE.

AND DO I THINK WE CAN GET BACK TO THAT?

I THINK IF PEOPLE, IF POLITICIAN RECOVER A PRAKT HUMILITY TO REALIZE, YOU CAN'T HAVE ALL YOUR OWN WAY.

YOU HAVE TO GET SOMETHING DONE IT ALLOWS TO YOU MAKE A LITTLE COMPROMISE.

I THINK THE COUNTRY WOULD THRILL TO THAT.

WE'VE ALIENATED VOTERS.

SO THE EXTREMES ARE ALL WE HEAR FROM ANYMORE.

WE THINK NO ONE IN WASHINGTON CAN GET THINGS DONE.

IT IS ALL JUST NONSENSE.

SO A CHARLIE TAN CAN STEAL EVERYBODY'S LUNCH MONEY WE'LL HAVE STOPPED BELIEVING IN MODEST PROGRESS.

A GOVERNMENT SYSTEM SET UP LIKE OURS IS ALL YOU CAN HOPE TO ACHIEVE BUT IT IS ENOUGH.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, 2 A LIFE HE WAS PERSONALLY GRATEFUL FOR.

AN ADVENTUROUS, FASCINATING LIFE.

AN IMPACT ON HISTORY THAT FILLED HIM WITH PRIDE.

HE ALSO FELT IT WAS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIM.

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS CAREER.

I THINK HE PROVED THAT.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT SENSE OF AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM IS WHAT IS AT STAKE IN THIS ELECTION?

CERTAINLY.

MOST CERTAINLY.

JOE BIDEN, I THINK, HAS THAT PRACTICAL HUMILITY WE TALKED ABOUT AND BELIEVES THIS COUNTRY STANDS FOR SOMETHING GREATER.

THE DESPERATE INTERESTS.

THERE'S MUCH MORE.

AND McCAIN BELIEVED THIS.

THAT WE HAVE MUCH MORE IN COMMON THAN DISAGREEMENT.

AND WE HAVE SHARED RESPONSIBILITIES.

THAT WE'RE FAIL TO UPHOLD.

SO YES.

I DO THINK SO.

DONALD TRUMP WON'T PUT THIS COUNTRY'S INTERESTS FIRST.

NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE SAYS AMERICA FIRST, IT IS ONLY DONALD FIRST.

HE DOESN'T CARE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, HE DOESN'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO THIS COUNTRY WHEN HE LEAVES.

IT IS ONLY HIM FIRST.

THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

WE'RE A BETTER COUNTRY THAN HE THINKS WE ARE.

WE'RE A BETTER COUNTRY THAN HE WANTS US TO KNOW.

AND WE'RE A BETTER COUNTRY THAN HE WANTS US TO BE IF HE'S REELECTED FOR FOUR MORE YEARS.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

SPEAKING OF, FINALLY WE TURN TO NEW ZEALAND.

THE GO-TO LAND OF GOOD DEMOCRACY IN ACTION.

THE PRIME MINISTER WAS REELECTED IN A LAND SLIDE LAST MONTH.

ON THE BACK OF GOOD GOVERNANCE THAT ELIMINATED, AND BEFORE THAT, THE HANDLING OF THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS WHO GUNNED DOWN WORSHIPPERS.

NEW ZEALAND'S INCOMING PARLIAMENT IS ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE IN THE WORLD.

ALMOST HALF WILL BE WOMEN.

AND NOW SHE'S ANNOUNCED HER NEW CABINET.

THEM MOST DIVERSE IN THE COUNTRY'S HISTORY.

AMONG THEM, THE FIRST FEMALE INDIGENOUS FOREIGN MINISTER.

SHE ALSO NAMED GRANT ROBERTSON, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER.

HE'S THE FIRST GAY MAN TO HOLD THAT POST.

AND LEST ANYONE'S QUALIFICATIONS, SHE WAS ADAMANT THAT THIS IS ABOUT TALENT.

NOT TOKENISM.

IT IS BOTH A CABINET WITH HUGE MERIT AND TALENT.

WHO ALSO HAPPENED TO BE INCREDIBLY DIVERSE.

AND I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO MAKE.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS FOR WHAT THEY BRING TO THIS CABINET.

THEY ALSO REFLECTED.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF THAT.

AND SHE ADDED ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS ABOUT NEW ZEALAND, WE OFTEN IN A SPACE WHERE THESE COUNTRIES BECOME SECONDARY.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE PROGRAM ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.